The whole smart parts thing...

[SpitFire1299]

I read about the whole SP thing being over, but i guess i kind of had no real idea of waht happened.

Here are some good documents to read-

http://furby.pbcproductions.com/opinion.pdf
http://furby.pbcproductions.com/DYEvsSP.pdf
http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=377089

They are pretty long, but i went threw them and read every word.

Anyway, im just amazed at how a company could be so money hungry and people still buy their stuff? Im not telling you not to buy their stuff.. but think about it? This company caused AKA to stop making guns, for a patent that they didnt even create (from information that is stated).

A good qoute i found on PBN is...
"AKA believes that Smart Parts claims have no merit and intends to vigorously defend itself."

Point of the topic:
Everyone please get a better understanding of things before you decide to say something. Do not get offensive or defensive for/against something you dont even know about.

Im just upset to see that a company can be so popular, yet be so bad. Let people know whats going on in the correct way rather than just saying.. "Oh.. smart parts sucks because of that patent thing...." This really isnt directed at anyone in general.

Smart parts doesnt make good products, the people they stole the products from make good products.


If you get where im coming from.. please post. :cheers:

[MoeMag]

Thanks for the info.

Electro pnumatics in 1993... psst yeah right.




Smart parts doesnt make good products, the people they stole the products from make good products.

:cheers:

[Chaos_Theory!]

lol, you guys are cool. This is just another thread for people to bash SP in. Seriously, grow the hell up.

[SpitFire1299]

lol, you guys are cool. This is just another thread for people to bash SP in. Seriously, grow the hell up.
I dont see any "bashing".. all i see is documents of what went on, and an explanation of why i made the topic.

Obviously you didnt read what i said.

Everyone please get a better understanding of things before you decide to say something. Do not get offensive or defensive for/against something you dont even know about.

[Chaos_Theory!]

Smart parts doesnt make good products, the people they stole the products from make good products.
I did read it and this is the sort of thing im refering to.

[SpitFire1299]

I did read it and this is the sort of thing im refering to.
Well my point exactly..


Everyone please get a better understanding of things before you decide to say something. Do not get offensive or defensive for/against something you dont even know about.

I did a lot of research and i have a good understanding of the situation. The part that you quoted is how i feel about it all.

Did you read the documents?

[Chaos_Theory!]

Ive read just about everything ive seen when ths "SP Issue" comes up. I just think its rediculous how people still cry about what happend. Give it up, its over with and isnt going to be undone because you whine about it. Not liking or saying things agains SP doesnt help anything.

[SpitFire1299]

Ive read just about everything ive seen when ths "SP Issue" comes up. I just think its rediculous how people still cry about what happend. Give it up, its over with and isnt going to be undone because you whine about it. Not liking or saying things agains SP doesnt help anything.
Its a big issue. Its a big issue that people need to properly understand..(insert the whole defensive/offensive quote here).

Im not crying; Im not whining. Im pointing out facts. Im going to assume you own an SP product, and are all hostile towards information like this because you think the product is good, and that its directed toward you because of what you love. I never said SP products suck.

[Chaos_Theory!]

I do owna SP product but that doesnt have anything to do with it. I just hate how people always have to go back to what happend. No matter how much you talk about it and complain nothing is going to change, period. The facts vary depending on what you read. What SP did was a great business move. Sure it hurt some companies but it happens. Not everything is candy coated in the business workd and thats what people have to realize.

[SpitFire1299]

I do owna SP product but that doesnt have anything to do with it. I just hate how people always have to go back to what happend. No matter how much you talk about it and complain nothing is going to change, period. The facts vary depending on what you read. What SP did was a great business move. Sure it hurt some companies but it happens. Not everything is candy coated in the business workd and thats what people have to realize.
Ok, theirs your opinion, ill respect it.

Now remember what i said.. (this was my opinion)

Anyway, im just amazed at how a company could be so money hungry and people still buy their stuff? Im not telling you not to buy their stuff.. but think about it? This company caused AKA to stop making guns, for a patent that they didnt even create (from information that is stated).
Good business move? Sure if you say so. Taking out your competitors with stolen patents. A good business move doesnt(well shouldnt atleast) involve doing something illegal.

[paintman1142]

Originally Posted by SpitFire1299
Smart parts doesnt make good products, the people they stole the products from make good products.

Yeah, so Smart Parts is basicly the Microsoft of paintball :rofl:






:dance:

[Munnin]

first of all

chill.

thank you for the documentation, they are extrordinaraly boring to read, but do shed more lite onto the issue. i find sp personaly to be a ruthless and needlessly agressive company, and i try not to support them in any way possible, but again, its just an opinion and everyones entiled to their own.

[Chaos_Theory!]

Just because it wasnt technically right doesnt make it a bad business move. Its just another bump in the road imo. The only reaosn its a "big deal" is because people wont let it go. Thsi kind of thing happens all the time in business all over the place. I see where your coming form and i respect what you believe but people are going way to overboard with this stuff.

Im out for the night, cya.

[SpitFire1299]

Yeah, so Smart Parts is basicly the Microsoft of paintball :rofl:

Microsoft is pretty much owns a monopoly while smart parts doesnt, so its kind of a stretch comparison. :)

[SpitFire1299]

Just because it wasnt technically right doesnt make it a bad business move. Its just another bump in the road imo. The only reaosn its a "big deal" is because people wont let it go. Thsi kind of thing happens all the time in business all over the place. I see where your coming form and i respect what you believe but people are going way to overboard with this stuff.
It is a big deal though...

The paintball industry is only SOO big. Taking away a competitor(like AKA) slows down the whole industry. An idea could of sparked off an idea from AKA(legally without patent stealing), and paintball could have been farther.

Ok.. enough with this "could have" stuff. Do you get at all where i am coming from?

[Munnin]

Microsoft is pretty much owns a monopoly while smart parts doesnt, so its kind of a stretch comparison. :)


nah, microsoft is more of an oligopoly(sp?)... hahah oligopoly, the only word i remember form economics class....

[SpitFire1299]

nah, microsoft is more of an oligopoly(sp?)... hahah oligopoly, the only word i remember form economics class....
Very true. :cheers: Ive been looking for that word too, lol.

[Lohman446]

I love the amount of people here who have more knowledge than any companies lawyer or judges and can announce patents stolen that have been held up in court for the most part. My god, you all knowing, great people :rolleyes:

Funny.. AKA was going to fight to the end, those patents had to be stolen, and yet when the looked at it in a legal sense.. oh, maybe not.

[doc_Zox]

actually AKA looked at it from the paying a patent lawyer hourly rate sense

Bill and Adam Gardner's dad is a Lawyer
and he works for SP...

Smart Parts can file paper work all day

[Jonesie]

OK, let's see who-else is like Smart Parts...

Microsoft (Stole the GUI fro Apple who stole it from Xerox) - How many of you use Windows?
Apple (Stole the GUI from Xerox) - How many of you have an iPod?


Now I have not read the above documents, BUT my understanding of the situation is that Smart Parts was either business saavy enough to protect their intelectual property, OR they were smart enough to patent technology that was previously uncovered by any existing at the time. How is this ruthless? They have an obligation to those investors whose retirements and/or livelihoods depend on the success or failure of the company.

Just an example of hypocrisy of you SP haters. Now go back to listening to your iPods and playing Minesweeper on your XP boxes.

[Lohman446]

Yeh, it aws all about paperwork :rolleyes:

Funny, as I read the WDP v SP situation a judge decided that SP and WDP had both obtained the patent through there aquisition of PVI (or the aquisition of part of the intellectual property because someone did not sign a work product agreement) and its various intellectual properties. This was a business "buy" out move. Assuming PVI legally owned that intellectual property (and the Dr. involved - hence WDPs claim) than how was it stealing when they bought it? A judge did not rule either WDP or SPs claims as invalid, in fact it was decided they shared it. It wasnt about a money fight in court, it came down to a judges decision after hearing much more evidence than anyone here has heard.

Of course, this generation whining about intelectual property rights does not surprise me. I need only look at all the illegally shared software / music / movies (not pointing fingers at individuals) to understand the lack of respect, currently, in America for intelectual property rights.

[craltal]

OK, let's see who-else is like Smart Parts...

Microsoft (Stole the GUI fro Apple who stole it from Xerox) - How many of you use Windows?
Apple (Stole the GUI from Xerox) - How many of you have an iPod?



Microsoft tried to make an operating system for Apple to use that they didn't end up using. When Apple rejected it, Microsoft turned around and based Windows on it without permission from Apple. This resulted in the lawsuit that Apple won.

I don't know what you are talking about regarding Xerox.

[Hexis]

I don't know what you are talking about regarding Xerox.

Then you need to read up on the history of the GUI. Check out the Xerox PARC Wiki entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_PARC).

[GT]

Anyway, im just amazed at how a company could be so money hungry and people still buy their stuff? Im not telling you not to buy their stuff.. but think about it? This company caused AKA to stop making guns, for a patent that they didnt even create (from information that is stated).


AKA can still make guns, just like dye and wdp. Since when did buisness become the feel good sport that everyone makes it out to be? You make products to make money, pure and simple. If you can slide a half-assed patent under the door of a judge and then take smaller companies to court, you win.

PB is still a young sport, maybe manufactures have learned a lesson in IP law. Patent up your stuff, document like mad, carry lots of insurance.

[craltal]

Then you need to read up on the history of the GUI. Check out the Xerox PARC Wiki entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_PARC).

"Xerox was given Apple stock in exchange for engineer visits and an understanding that Apple would create a GUI product."

I'l admit it's a bit shady, but it doesn't qualify as stealing, especially when their version tanked in the market...

As for AKA, their legal agreement (as much as has been disclosed) with SP states that they can't make any guns that use the electronic switch as an actuator.

[GT]

Of course, this generation whining about intelectual property rights does not surprise me. I need only look at all the illegally shared software / music / hardware (not pointing fingers at individuals) to understand the lack of respect, currently, in America for intelectual property rights.


ohhh now here is a gem. I think the US has the most stringent of anywhere in the world. Comparing product production to dl music are two totally different mind sets.

[Lohman446]

ohhh now here is a gem. I think the US has the most stringent of anywhere in the world. Comparing product production to dl music are two totally different mind sets.

Yeh.. it was an oops on the hardware portion of that, I meant movies to go there. They are, but I do find it interesting and would like to know how many of these people complaining SP "stole" this patent, also have illegal software on there systems. I think that WDP and SP fought long enough in court that had there been an issue as blatantly obvious as some of the posters on this board want to think that ti would have been found by the court.

[Hexis]

I think you are confusing Copyright issues with Patent issues. They are very different beasts.

[Lohman446]

I think you are confusing Copyright issues with Patent issues. They are very different beasts.

To some degree. Both fall under the broader label of intellectual property which is really the label I used to consider them. How is a disregard for one intelectual property (patent rights) that much different than a disregard for another intellectual property (copyright). I don't think it is a surprise that some of the same people who complain about SP protecting a patent that they have may also justify software piracy.

[Hexis]

I think that when you start crossing boundries into differeent aspects of IP, things start to get muddy pretty quickly. Toss Trademark in there too. Using the same logic anyone who has a "Level 10 Inside" sticker must not care about IP as well.

The Copyright side of IP, and how it relates to normal consumers is a big complex issue. Patent law is also a big complex issue. Neither one can be simply summed up as Pro-IP or Con-IP.

[ottomobile]

The problem is point of view. Smart Parts changed. When they started paintball was in its infancy. Every shared technology with everyone else because it was good for the sport and everyone was in it for the love of paintball (and no one had the money for lawyers). Since then it has become a lucrative industry. SP emerged as a heavy hitter. They now have money and fame. They belive that should give them power over the shape of the industry. They and other large companies stopped letting things slide and have become more protective of their technology. More money is at stake. They got greedy and rightly or wrongly, took legal action to protect their investment. Like its been stated, it was a good business move. At least in the short term. The problem is that SP is betting on only one future of pb. Their future is one where PB is the largest extreme sport and XBall is its crown jewel. This, however may not be the case. Paintball has slowed in growth this past year and according several columnisits in FullFace the business side is on a precipice. The market for high end markers is at a saturation point. There hasn't been a new paradigm in 3 years. The XLeague is failing and the NPPL and PSP are talking merger becasause participation is down. Basically paintball is heading into a recession. If SP isn't carefull they will be a victim of their own success. Trying to grow too quickly it a market that can't sustain them. For most people paintball is still a couple times a year thing. They own cheap markers and don't know the difference from an ION to Model 98 and aren't about to drop $300+ on marker or tank.

Smart Parts is an aggresively ambitious company trying to carve an empire out of a sport dominated by garage machine shops and weekend warriors. Maybe they'll win, maybe they won't. But ultimatly it hinges on us and what we end up spending our paychecks on.

:cool:

[Lohman446]

I think that when you start crossing boundries into differeent aspects of IP, things start to get muddy pretty quickly. Toss Trademark in there too. Using the same logic anyone who has a "Level 10 Inside" sticker must not care about IP as well.

The Copyright side of IP, and how it relates to normal consumers is a big complex issue. Patent law is also a big complex issue. Neither one can be simply summed up as Pro-IP or Con-IP.


Perfect example, and when the holders of that IP expressed there concern wtih those level ten stickers TK asked that there use be discontinued :) Though I agree, this situation is likely far far more complex than you, I, or anyone else summing it up so simply on these boards are going to bother to understand.

[garto]

Alright I'm doing a project on paintball and I was wondering if there is any more information about the smart parts thing out there? I have found most other aspects of paintball I need but this was/is a major controversy still so I need to find out as much as possible and I need the sources to back it up. Any and all info is appreciated.

-Chris

P.S. Are any paintball companies publically traded? Are there any numbers for profits/expenses from companies, I know they are annual reports and things for companies that are publically traded which would yield the information I need but I have no idea where to get them.

[Lohman446]

Alright I'm doing a project on paintball and I was wondering if there is any more information about the smart parts thing out there? I have found most other aspects of paintball I need but this was/is a major controversy still so I need to find out as much as possible and I need the sources to back it up. Any and all info is appreciated.

-Chris

P.S. Are any paintball companies publically traded? Are there any numbers for profits/expenses from companies, I know they are annual reports and things for companies that are publically traded which would yield the information I need but I have no idea where to get them.

K2 purchased WGP over a year go, there should be some numbers there. If I recall Summit? purchased Tippman and there should be some numbers there. Granted these are both large companies and you may have some trouble ferretting the info out of the annual reports

[doc_Zox]

interesting market analysis:
http://www.wooster.edu/magazine/spring2005/paintball.php

>

Features : E-Money's Show
E-Money Action Sports Show: April 17, 2005
Evan and Chris talk about Avalanche, the Dye/Smartparts lawsuit, and interview former NPPL head ref Phil Dominguez and our very own Dale Ford.
Apr 17, 2005, 20:08
http://www.iisports.com/page.asp?content_id=7433

>>>>

AKALMP, INC.
PO BOX 441167
INDIANAPOLIS IN 46244-1167
PH: 317-631-7200 FAX: 317-631-0325

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Greetings from AKA-low pressure experts. We want to wish all of our paintball family
and the paintball community a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
We look forward to meeting each and every one of you this coming year.

This is new news but probably not unexpected. Smart Parts has filed a patent
infringement lawsuit against AKA relating to electronic control of paintball guns.

AKA believes that Smart Parts claims have no merit and intends to vigorously defend itself.
Best wishes for the new year.
Aaron, Larry, & Eileen
12/21/03

>>>>>>>>>>>

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE!!

March 1st, 2004

AKALMP, Inc., Low Pressure Experts, has reached an agreement in the lawsuit
with Smart Parts, Inc. AKA is not a licensee of Smart Parts and the terms of
the agreement are strictly confidential.
Within the terms of the agreement the current production run will be
the last of the Vikings and Excaliburs. Contact your local dealer or AKA
for availability and price.
AKA will still repair, service and upgrade Excaliburs and Vikings
and will honor all applicable warranties. AKA will also continue to
manufacture and sell their line of marker upgrades and accessories
as well as develop new products. There are several exciting and
new products debuting in 2004. AKA looks forward to the 2004
Tournament season and meeting all of you at the
tournaments.

>>>>>>>>>>>

http://fat.comic-relief.org/smartparts.html

[garto]

Thank you so Much!

[Dark Frost17]

Alot of reading....... i need a bigger screan...... :wow:

[garto]

Haha thats why I went big and got the Dell fpw2005, 20.1 inches of goodness.

[RavishingEddie]

I just think the people of Smart Parts are all very bad and mean and they just want to hurt people. They want to take over everything and make everyone suffer. They kill alot of kittens too. :(

[thefool]

wow....
the problem that i see with smartparts is that they went the way of corporate america and steped on the little guy. Now protecting your patents is all well and good but when it means desentizing the market to your products its not.

Its also the little things that they do that make me mad. For instance, instead of selling a great marker for as much as the other ones on the market, hey sell something that can be great if you invest some money into it (blackheart, he bolt). I mean its a smart buissness venture but its not the sign of a great company.

But then again makeing high end markers mainsteam might put some life back into this sport.

THe other problem isnt really smartpart's its americas. These ID lawsuits oftentimes come down to who has the better lawyers rather than who is right. AKA is a prime example. But then agian you never really know what happened in court becasue it s confidential.

Ahh im rambling