is ULT slow?? i dont think so :) VID inside !!

[atm743]

you know how there's talk about ULT in a x valve cant have any reactivity or has shoot down when fireing in high ROF

well i think i proved that thouse theories are wrong !!


Click here to watch atm743-mech-mag-ULT (http://home.comcast.net/~beemerone/atmULTedit.mpg)

thats one hole hopper of paint.

halo B

x valve with ULT

http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/5956/picture0027lz.th.jpg (http://img236.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture0027lz.jpg)

enjoy :D

[Maggot6]

The camera was so, that it looked like 1 ball came out for every five shots...Anyone here have a goldwave program of sorts to see how fast that was?

Nice Mag ;)

[RRfireblade]

you know how there's talk about ULT in a x valve cant have any reactivity or has shoot down when fireing in high ROF

well i think i proved that thouse theories are wrong !!



Those aren't theorys as far as I know.

Reactivity or bounce is easily controlled by shims and the ROF potential is typically slowed down in E/Xmag do to the weaker return force.

;)

[Z-man]

A good solid run and THANK YOU FOR NOT SHOOTING A TREE/GARBAGE CAN/ANYTHING THAT MAKES NOISE!

http://www.zakvetter.com/images/linked_images/atm743-ult-mag.gif

[Lohman446]

If I recall the theories said it might slow it down at its theoretical max rate of fire. You've not proven those wrong, you have proven that it is not significant(sp) enough to slow it down below 19BPS

[atm743]

A good solid run and THANK YOU FOR NOT SHOOTING A TREE/GARBAGE CAN/ANYTHING THAT MAKES NOISE!

http://www.zakvetter.com/images/linked_images/atm743-ult-mag.gif


WOW thats awsome

yeah i was thinking about shooting a tree but im like ehh i want this goldwaved :)

and about thouse theories, I remeber way back about someone (i though it was BlackVCG) that said you cant get it to have bounce but idk that was a while back.

if you want to know my secret for how many shims i used in the ult lmk :D

[Arstron]

A good solid run and THANK YOU FOR NOT SHOOTING A TREE/GARBAGE CAN/ANYTHING THAT MAKES NOISE!

I am going to have to play with my goldwave more, I couldnt make head or tails of any of the shots when I opened it up. What you posted is 100% more readable then what I had. :cheers:

[etjoyride]

Awesome, that's my new gun(in about 2-3 days)...nice to see it really can rip.

[Lohman446]

Im up for discussing this video on its merits, so I think I'll repost myself. Its funny the people who come in and whine about people complaining about the video, than offer nothing of any substance to the thread themselves.


If I recall the theories said it might slow it down at its theoretical max rate of fire. You've not proven those wrong, you have proven that it is not significant(sp) enough to slow it down below 19BPS

I leave the question out there.. does this video disprove any theory about possible limitations to the rate of fire at max rate of fire?

[RRfireblade]

Im up for discussing this video on its merits, so I think I'll repost myself. Its funny the people who come in and whine about people complaining about the video, than offer nothing of any substance to the thread themselves.



I leave the question out there.. does this video disprove any theory about possible limitations to the rate of fire at max rate of fire?


Video proves nothing, the max ROF of the valve has been shown to be in the early to mid 30's. ;)


19 isn't even breaking a sweat.

:D

[MoeMag]

Perhaps I am missing something… but is this not just a ULE bouncing?

[atm743]

Video proves nothing, the max ROF of the valve has been shown to be in the early to mid 30's. ;)


19 isn't even breaking a sweat.

:D

Whats the highest someone got with a preset?

[RRfireblade]

I myself have been in the mid 20's....23-24 IIRC.

[RRfireblade]

Perhaps I am missing something… but is this not just a ULE bouncing?

Basically , yes.

It's runaway based primarily on insuffucient sear lockup.

[MoeMag]

Whats the highest someone got with a preset?

I have 16bps with r/t x-valve on a crossfire preset. And 23 with a maxflo adj.


Basically , yes.

It's runaway based primarily on insuffucient sear lockup.

Yeah. So whats the big deal? If someone could PULL a ule that fast without short stroking I would be impressed.

Welcome to the world of rapid fire. :cheers:

[Lohman446]

The thing is, this is about the theory taht ULT hampers the max rate of fire. You stated this disprove that theory. You didn't even approach 70% of top speed. How could that disprove the theory that it slows it down at top speed?

[Maggot6]

Just a curious question here...

Overshimmed ULT = Bounce,
Pressures over 900 ~ psi = Bounce...

Has anyone made a video where they combined the two? I have not seen one yet. Will we still get results like 34.5 bps because of our loaders?

[atm743]

Just a curious question here...

Overshimmed ULT = Bounce,
Pressures over 900 ~ psi = Bounce...

Has anyone made a video where they combined the two? I have not seen one yet. Will we still get results like 34.5 bps because of our loaders?

damn

i should should of taken a video of that before i shipped it out to etjoyride

mabey it will work mabey not

i never did it but i would belive that the ult on off pin would snap being its soo thin

[RRfireblade]

~34 is the max the bolt can bounce back and forth off a spring , it doesn't really matter how you initiate the condition...it ain't goin' any faster than that. :)

[Z-man]

*intercom voice* Pageing Zack Vettor... Pageing Zack Vettor

ITS Z A K YOU VILE CHILDREN!!! THERE IS NO ZACKVETTER.COM @!#$@$#@#$@$#


Here is what I have to say on this subject. All videos listed on my site here (http://www.zakvetter.com/pages/paintballs/z-man_videos/zman_videos_main.html)

1- The RT valve and all the many variations out there (http://www.zakvetter.com/pages/paintballs/automag_info/agd_valves.html) behave almost the same under various pressures and flowrates. AGD states that the valve has been tested up to 26bps with no shoot down. Back in 2004 I started testing the RT valve off scuba tanks and was able to hit 34bps (for clarification that is 34 paintballs fired over the course of 1 second NOT 2 shots that if strung together would add up to 34bps). This curently stands as not only the fastest video recording of an RT valved Automag firing paint but the fastest video of a paintball marker shooting paint.

2- I have done no video testing of any Automag with a ULT on/off assembly and very limited testing of preset tanks and rapid-fire other than the video made for Centerflag testing the 4CE preset reg. Ill go check the speed of that video but it sounds like ~20bps off a preset.

3- IT'S NOT RUNAWAY IT'S RAPID-FIRE (http://www.zakvetter.com/pages/paintballs/automag_info/rapidfire/runaway.html). If it was runaway I could not control ity and I CAN so get it straight!

4- What are we getting at? This whole discussion appears to be getting back to my flow chart I made in jest.

http://www.zakvetter.com/images/linked_images/rof_flowchart.gif

On the 1 hand I see that people always want to see "the fastest" this and that. We can get as detailed as we want.

The fastest Spyder
The fastest Tippmann
The fastest Cocker
The fastest Angel
The fastest Cyborg
The fastest Viking
The fastest DM7
The fastest Automag

We can start sub catagories

The fastest E-mag
The fastest X-Mag
The fastest SFL E-Mag
The fastest UTL Mech Mag
The fastest Stock on/off Mech Mag
The fastest AIR valved Mag

Every day a new video of some "WiCkEd FaST GaT" appears and 99% of them are 15-19bps and the remaining 1% are 20-23bps. New gun, new look, new person, same speeds.

At the same time I watch these same people who tout their gun as the fastest or "it's been proven that this can do this...blah blah blah I couldn't produce this proof if my life depended on it but it's true because I know" revert to saying things like:

"Shooting over 20/24/26bps doesn't matter because you cannot shott that fast legally"

"Shooting over 20/24/26bps is pointless becase 15/18/20bps is fast enough"

So which is it? You place a HUGE level of importance on claiming fast you can shoot (or claim your gun could shoot) and yet you "poo poo" anything that blows the crap out of the competiton.

This video shows a Mag doing 19bps. I can find videos of many different makers shooting 19-22bps. This is the first video I have seen of a ULT valved Mag shooting that speed so that is cool. Never the less an almsot identical video was made by myself almost 3 years ago.

Once I get moved up to Grand Junction I am going to make a new SLEW of movies not only making "cleaner" movies of things I have up now but also seeing if I can break 35bps.

If

[atm743]

Once I get moved up to Grand Junction I am going to make a new SLEW of movies not only making "cleaner" movies of things I have up now but also seeing if I can break 35bps.

If

Awsome ill be waiting to see those vids :D

[Jotsy]

i have a question. with the ULT bouncing like that, is the trigger pull still light?

[atm743]

i have a question. with the ULT bouncing like that, is the trigger pull still light?

yes

im able to walk the trigger like a electro gun

[Lohman446]

3- IT'S NOT RUNAWAY IT'S RAPID-FIRE (http://www.zakvetter.com/pages/paintballs/automag_info/rapidfire/runaway.html). If it was runaway I could not control ity and I CAN so get it straight!


Depends on your definition. If your definition gets technical as RRfireblade has said there are not complete mechanical gun functions there - incomplete sear lockup. One could make a pretty good argument that that defines run away. Now I do understand your argument as well, but both have pretty valid points.

[Z-man]

Depends on your definition. If your definition gets technical as RRfireblade has said there are not complete mechanical gun functions there - incomplete sear lockup. One could make a pretty good argument that that defines run away. Now I do understand your argument as well, but both have pretty valid points.

I can't find a compelling reason to call it runaway as it's controlable on every level. Not only will it not start and stop on it own but I can control the speed that I rapid-fire the gun. No not change the speed via input pressure but by trigger pressure. Runaway implies a lack of control but since I can control every aspect of the markers behavior while rapid-firing I don't think it fits.

I'm hijacking this thread... sorry

[RRfireblade]

Bottom line is can you fan a non-reactive trigger to the same speed?

[Automaggot68]

Depends on your definition. If your definition gets technical as RRfireblade has said there are not complete mechanical gun functions there - incomplete sear lockup. One could make a pretty good argument that that defines run away. Now I do understand your argument as well, but both have pretty valid points.


I'm going to have to ask you, and I know you very well-You put up a damn good arguement.
How is incomplete sear lockup runaway if the shooter is able to control the speed (ROF) that he/she's shooting at?

[RRfireblade]

I'm going to have to ask you, and I know you very well-You put up a damn good arguement.
How is incomplete sear lockup runaway if the shooter is able to control the speed (ROF) that he/she's shooting at?

Doesn't matter whether you call it runaway or not , or whether you can control the speed it runs away.

Simply , is it true semi auto fire?

IMO, no.

It's assisted by the reactive nature of the trigger and it's tendency to bounce or 'run off' if pressure is applied in various manners OTHER than a complete pull and release of the trigger.

[Automaggot68]

Doesn't matter whether you call it runaway or not , or whether you can control the speed it runs away.

Simply , is it true semi auto fire?

IMO, no.

It's assisted by the reactive nature of the trigger and it's tendency to bounce or 'run off' if pressure is applied in various manners OTHER than a complete pull and release of the trigger.

Don't get me wrong Jay, I'm not arguing on the point if it's True Semi or not.
I will agree with you on that point, i don't belive it to be TRUE semi, but I do not classify it under 'Runaway'

[RRfireblade]

True, not just full run away as it applies to some other markers.

What your doing in 'rapid fire' is more like limiting the valves tendacy to run away IMO.

Finding the fine line between where it won;t fire and where it wants to take off , depending of course on how on the 'edge' the markers tuned or set up.

[Z-man]

Bottom line is can you fan a non-reactive trigger to the same speed?

Sure! I's so glad you asked :)

I can get the marker to shoot as slow as 12-13bps and I have a video of me shooting a peak of 16 bps.

I can make the gun rapid-fire at speed I can shoot BUT rapid-fire allows me to excede that.

My Old Max ROF RT Pro Video (http://www.zakvetter.com/paintball_videos/z-man_max_rof.mov) 13-16bps range

and of course my video demo showing how you can control the speed of rapid-fire

Speed Variations on Rapid-Fire (http://www.zakvetter.com/paintball_videos/rapidfire_speed_variations.mov)
Complete with sound analysis! (http://www.zakvetter.com/pages/paintballs/z-man_videos/sound_analysis/speed_variations.html)

[etjoyride]

Old RT VId link is dead

[Z-man]

Old RT VId link is dead
fixed sorry

[RRfireblade]

Sure! I's so glad you asked :)

I can get the marker to shoot as slow as 12-13bps and I have a video of me shooting a peak of 16 bps.

I can make the gun rapid-fire at speed I can shoot BUT rapid-fire allows me to excede that.

My Old Max ROF RT Pro Video (http://www.zakvetter.com/paintball_videos/z-man_max_rof.mov) 13-16bps range

and of course my video demo showing how you can control the speed of rapid-fire

Speed Variations on Rapid-Fire (http://www.zakvetter.com/paintball_videos/rapidfire_speed_variations.mov)
Complete with sound analysis! (http://www.zakvetter.com/pages/paintballs/z-man_videos/sound_analysis/speed_variations.html)


What I was getting at is.....do it on NOT a mag. :)

I've got RT # 12 or 13 (I think it is) bought new I'm pretty familiar with 'rapid fire' myself. :D

[Z-man]

What I was getting at is.....do it on NOT a mag. :)
I can provide a video of over 15bps on several markers but are we going to start narrowing it down to a few "acceptable" choices?

I'll check all my raw video but I think I can show 15+ on an Excal, Viking, E-Mag (in e or hybrid mode) and a Shocker. Are any of those acceptable?

Edit: I think I know where this is going. Ill add "make a video of shooting 15bps on a classic AIR valved Mag" to my list. unless you want to rephrase your argument that will settle that...

[punkncat]

That is an awesome display of mechanical speed.....really nice to see.

Even thought by the letter of the rules the "language" was an issue, I am not nieve enough to believe that kids haven't heard and even said much worse. It is suprizing to me that it was made such an issue. However, just to keep the peace I hope you can find someone to snip the end off and remove the offensive content that appears to be clouding the real point of the video.

[paintman1142]

so what shims did you use, and according to my sources what carriers did you use for your level 10 because they say that fireing like that witht the ULT depends on shims, carriers and imput pressure. I had it go full auto on me a couple of times but i had to adjust it b/c i had a tourny that day that wouldnt allow it.

[atm743]

well i had 4 ult shims and 1 level 10 shim in the ult and i dont recall the level 10 carrier size but the level 10 carrier size is never the same for each valve because orings dont come out perfect everytime. sometimes you may need a small carrier and sometimes you need a big carrier

it just depends

but for the ult i used that many.

for the input pressure i have a 70 4500 crossfire high output reg

soo 850 psi

[RRfireblade]

I can provide a video of over 15bps on several markers but are we going to start narrowing it down to a few "acceptable" choices?

I'll check all my raw video but I think I can show 15+ on an Excal, Viking, E-Mag (in e or hybrid mode) and a Shocker. Are any of those acceptable?

Edit: I think I know where this is going. Ill add "make a video of shooting 15bps on a classic AIR valved Mag" to my list. unless you want to rephrase your argument that will settle that...

Just simply is the reactive trigger aiding in attaining a ROF not attainable without the reactive trigger and using the same method of fire.

I'd say a video fanning or whatever you want to call that method , a stock (non ULT bounce/shim induced , over pressurized , altered on/off assembly , truly semi by definition of most ,etc) Classic valve to 16 would be fine enough assuming it's not edited ot otherwise altered.

We're obviously not talking about walking , hybrid-ing (is that a word?) or bouncing an electro but feel free to act as though you don't know what we're talking about. ;) I'm in a good mood tonight.

:dance: :bounce: :dance: :bounce: :dance: :bounce: :dance: :bounce:

See?
:)

[Z-man]

We're obviously not talking about walking , hybrid-ing (is that a word?) or bouncing an electro but feel free to act as though you don't know what we're talking about. ;) I'm in a good mood tonight.

:dance: :bounce: :dance: :bounce: :dance: :bounce: :dance: :bounce:

See?
:)

I was getting worried you weren’t going to reply to me. Sounds like it would be a hard case to sell to you.

If I use any electronic marker you can claim assistance via the board (ramping, hybrid, full auto etc). Ironically it is these markers that have the triggers that are the easiest to cycle regardless of how much they cheat and help you.

If I use an RT valved Mag no matter the input pressure you can claim I wasn't really shooting that because I was getting help in some way from the reactivity of the trigger.

Sounds like the only way to prove this in your terms would be to pull this off with an AIR vavled Automag, or some other mechanical marker like a cocker, spyder or Tippmann? What about a properly setup ULT trigger on RT valve? Would that still be considered cheating? I happen to like proving so far beyond the shadow of a doubt that the naysayers have absolutely nothing to claim short of "Z-man sped up the video" or some weak excuse like that.

So then! If I can pull off 15bps on an air valve, a Spyder or something like that, will that satisfy you and your recalcitrant mind?

[jenarelJAM]

It'll satisfy me, I like vids :dance:
:clap: GO Z-MAN :clap:

[Lohman446]

I'm going to have to ask you, and I know you very well-You put up a damn good arguement.
How is incomplete sear lockup runaway if the shooter is able to control the speed (ROF) that he/she's shooting at?


First off lets assume the assertion that incomplete sear lock up is present. I don't think runaway is ever really defined. Now, this is going to consider mechanical markers, trigger input and solenoid input may be the same thing if you want to get into electros. We need to decide what runaway is to decide if it is present.

Is run away only when you loose control of the valve and trigger input is not required to shoot it? I think we can all agree that is runaway.

Is run away a condition that happens when a the marker fires more than the trigger is pulled, or when the trigger pulls subsequent to the first require less pressure or travel to cause the marker to fire? I think some people might consider that runaway.

If the marker is not fully mechanically cycling - if the sear is not fully engaging the bolt, I think a fairly compelling argument can be made that short of a full mechanical cycle is run away. Less people will agree, but its still a pretty solid argument.

[SpecialBlend2786]

What I was getting at is.....do it on NOT a mag. :)

I've got RT # 12 or 13 (I think it is) bought new I'm pretty familiar with 'rapid fire' myself. :D

leather.....pants

[Beemer]

Heres an edit on the vid for ya atm743.

http://home.comcast.net/~beemerone/atmULTedit.mpg

Ok here we go again

Runaway
Bounce
SWEETSPOT
Reactive
Input pressure
Full lock up[sear]


True no. Semi yes. Zak vids runaway, no.

Oh poo. RR east coast, Zak west coast. can you say east meets west. :wow:

Can I use 900psi in on a classic? Dont tell no one its rated to 3000.

If it was uncapped full auto, would it be safe to say I want a mag? :ninja:

Now all we need is a chrono that will read FPS at 26bps.

If its not a full cycle[lockup]wont the fps be off. Isnt it, the faster it shoots the more consistant it is?

AGD the little guy, still King of speed. :spit_take

Peace Out

_____________

http://home.comcast.net/~beemer2/respect.gif

[RRfireblade]

I was getting worried you weren’t going to reply to me. Sounds like it would be a hard case to sell to you.

If I use any electronic marker you can claim assistance via the board (ramping, hybrid, full auto etc). Ironically it is these markers that have the triggers that are the easiest to cycle regardless of how much they cheat and help you.

If I use an RT valved Mag no matter the input pressure you can claim I wasn't really shooting that because I was getting help in some way from the reactivity of the trigger.

Sounds like the only way to prove this in your terms would be to pull this off with an AIR vavled Automag, or some other mechanical marker like a cocker, spyder or Tippmann? What about a properly setup ULT trigger on RT valve? Would that still be considered cheating? I happen to like proving so far beyond the shadow of a doubt that the naysayers have absolutely nothing to claim short of "Z-man sped up the video" or some weak excuse like that.

So then! If I can pull off 15bps on an air valve, a Spyder or something like that, will that satisfy you and your recalcitrant mind?


Dude :) ,

What are you worried about? Have I not replied to every post. :D

I'm saying that would fine now for like the 3rd time. Why are you making this more complicated than it has to be?

And why are you trying to add hostility where none exists?

NO WHERE has there been a Zman is cheating or fibbing about the speed of his videos , it has been nothing more than "Does a reactive trigger aid in a person rate of fire?" Don't turn this into an attack on you where none exists and no attempt at being difficult by anyone (but you) exists.

Honestly I really could care less if you try and prove it or not , anyone who has shot an RT mag knows that it does aid in and enhance your ROF if you know how to take advantage of it. It's really not a debatable discussion, that's way they were made illegal like 10 years ago for Tourny play.

Your videos (in most cases) show you exceeding 16bps with one finger , we know that that fastest pro players in the world are only capable of 16-18 max with 2 fingers on a legally set up semi marker.....anyone past 1 grade can do the math on that one. :)

Sheesh. ;)

Just to keep track:


I'd say a video fanning or whatever you want to call that method , a stock (non ULT bounce/shim induced , over pressurized , altered on/off assembly , truly semi by definition of most ,etc) Classic valve to 16 would be fine enough


:)

[Lohman446]

I always assumed the purpose of the videos to demonstrate the speed of the valve and the trigger issues (finger pulling, whatever) were never an issue. Is the purpose of the videos to demonstrate the possible speeds of the valve, or to demonstrate finger speed? I always took them as a demonstration of the valve, done for demonstration purposes. I never even considered discussing the trigger or legality aspects of them.

[Z-man]

And why are you trying to add hostility where none exists?

No hostility intended Fireblade, you remember me right? I get very excited about this, but I am not mad at you and this is not some attack on you. I just... I just...just... [b]I KNOW IM RIGHT AND I MUST PROVE IT!! MUST DO YOU HEAR???!!? MUUUUUST!!!!.

I would not even THINK of suggesting that the RT trigger and its return bounce, even when not enough to rapid-fire, does not help you squeeze out a little extra bps. I think it's going to be very hard for me to pull that AIR valve 12bps+ (much less 15) but I'm going to try it never the less.

But see then you get into interesting questions. See tourneys outlaw the bounce right? sure but you CAN get the input pressure setup on a stock RT valve where you can't make it rapid-fire but you still feel the bounce. So is that still unfair and giving you an advantage?

Lets consider other triggers. Consider an old 98 mech cocker. The trigger pull length is MUCH longer than an RT trigger pull (not to mention that it is a completely different feel). Does that mean that because the cocker has a longer pull that the RT is yet another "assistive" aspect to it and thus is again not really a true semi auto?

Seems to me that (as an extreme example) that if you have a millimeter trigger to pull and a trigger with a 1 foot pull, the millimeter trigger is going to win out in how fast a human can pull it. Likewise single vs. double triggers have similar discrepancies, particularly for the mechanical markers. A 2 finger/blade trigger allows not only for greater leverage but also the use of a second finger. How is that fair?

So this begs the questions of what is the elusive, impartial, honest to goodness, unbiased trigger pull (if you can even suggest such a thing). Every trigger I can think of has something that gives it an advantage or disadvantage in comparison to another. Are we looking for the maximum rate of fire is with 1 finger? 2? 3? does it matter?

In my mind the closest thing to a human's max potential is one where the trigger distance and weight is minimal zed and the movement of the fingers becomes the limiting factor. Adding trigger weight, pull length, ANYTHING like that simply inhibits the max ROF.

So (while I drive up north again and will be away from the computer for 5 hours :cry: ) give me your thoughts on that. I personally would be more impressed to see someone pull an old mech Spyder 15bps or an old Mech Cocker 15bps than an RT Pro or even a Classic Mag... but what kind of mech trigger is the unbiased kind? The stock one with the longest pull or the aftermarket one that modifies it?

[Z-man]

I always assumed the purpose of the videos to demonstrate the speed of the valve and the trigger issues (finger pulling, whatever) were never an issue. Is the purpose of the videos to demonstrate the possible speeds of the valve, or to demonstrate finger speed? I always took them as a demonstration of the valve, done for demonstration purposes. I never even considered discussing the trigger or legality aspects of them.

In all honesty... I'm not sure. I usually make a video when i am sick of hearing people talk about something they have NO clue about as gospel truth.

"Mags are slow and paintblenders" was what irritated me enough to start making speed testing videos. Ya! you all shut up then DIDN'T YOU?! YOU STUPID IGNORANT PUNKS! NOTHING TO SAY NOW!! (pbn)

Then you start hearing "oh ok with rapid-fire you can shoot a mag ok but without that all you will ever get is 10bps" I find it so satisfying to absolutely demolish ignorance like that. Now I know this is not Fireblade's contention and I know that it's largely the kids who simply regurgitate what their pro tourney player god knows, but all the same look what happens when you toss some irrefutable proof out there? Ya it gets REEEAAAAAAALLY quiet on those subject.

[RRfireblade]

So (while I drive up north again and will be away from the computer for 5 hours :cry: ) give me your thoughts on that. I personally would be more impressed to see someone pull an old mech Spyder 15bps or an old Mech Cocker 15bps than an RT Pro or even a Classic Mag... but what kind of mech trigger is the unbiased kind? The stock one with the longest pull or the aftermarket one that modifies it?


Mmm...I don't know. :)

I suppose in this disccusion , any trigger whose return force doesn't equal or exceed it's pull force and also , for the sake of this discussion I guess we're talking about mechanical markers.

I understand your point though and that's precisely why these discussions are so difficult to nail down.

I 'suppose' the best way may be to take what would be considered stock RT valve and shoot it to max ROF (using your normal rapid fire technique) and then perhaps putting a longer on/off pin to neutralize the RT effect and trying it again, see what the diff is there.

I'm not sure

(oh , and Zach you know we're always cool. We go back way to far for that ;) )

[Beemer]

So this begs the questions of what is the elusive, impartial, honest to goodness, unbiased trigger pull (if you can even suggest such a thing). Every trigger I can think of has something that gives it an advantage or disadvantage in comparison to another.

Well forty something people on a committee for standards suggested this.

3.1.25 trigger cycle—the movement of the trigger through
discharge and returning to a reset or recycle position.

3.1.28 trigger pull—the force required to move the trigger
from its start or recycle/reset position to a position that
discharges the marker.

How would you call it?

I bet you can get 12 on the classic. But like you said its hard.

True semi, or semi, big difference.