If ION's were SUPER cheap how would that change things?

[AGD]

AO,

So if the ION were way cheaper than it is even now how would that affect the paintball world?

AGD

[Aeronautica86]

AO,

So if the ION were way cheaper than it is even now how would that affect the paintball world?

AGD

Personally I don't think anything would change. At the current price, I believe the Ion is within the reach of 99% of the people that want to purchase them. I highly doubt that there would be a huge influx of new players to the sport if a gun like the Ion was sold at say $99. At most, SP would sell alot of Ions to people who would like an inexpensive electro as a backup.

[Jotsy]

if they were way WAY cheaper? i guess we'd all have back up guns. they still won't be my main gun tho :p

[Lohman446]

I doubt it would be much more than they have already. I have watched several stores clearance out everything that was cheaper than the Ion to only stock the Ion after the last price drop.

Now if we get into the $50 cheap - where Wally World has them I think you would see the instances of paintball related injury sky rocket. I know some "outlaw" players play a no head shot rule because they don't have masks. There saving grace is a lack of paint in the air. Allow people not operating in safe conditions to put 300% more paint in the air and you are going to see more injuries.

[topazpaintball]

I doubt it would be much more than they have already. I have watched several stores clearance out everything that was cheaper than the Ion to only stock the Ion after the last price drop.

Now if we get into the $50 cheap - where Wally World has them I think you would see the instances of paintball related injury sky rocket. I know some "outlaw" players play a no head shot rule because they don't have masks. There saving grace is a lack of paint in the air. Allow people not operating in safe conditions to put 300% more paint in the air and you are going to see more injuries.

They do require HPA, so the average outlaw baller would still not be able to use them. I don't think they'll ever be mass marketed like Brass Eagles, if that's what you're talking about.

[Cow hunter]

They do require HPA, so the average outlaw baller would still not be able to use them. I don't think they'll ever be mass marketed like Brass Eagles, if that's what you're talking about.
nope they can use c02, and if hyou havent noticed, they HAVE been mass marketed, almost everyone has one as a main/backup!

[AutomagRT1483]

AO,

So if the ION were way cheaper than it is even now how would that affect the paintball world?

AGD


Define way cheaper. Like $150 instead of the already low price of just over $200. I see them all over the place now anyways as is. I really dont see anything changing except for the fact that we wont see to many new kids to the sport running Spyders and Piranahs, etc. It'll be Ions.

[Ken Majors]

I don't think it would change the paintball world all that much.

What it would do is change where alot of the money goes. Instead of every other kid on the block owning a Tippmann, he would own an Ion.

It would possibly increase paint sales. Since the thing will shoot through a hopper in about 10 seconds on ramping. Everyone knows that every kid with an ion has a video on Putfile of him ramping his Ion and emphatically screaming that is on semi. So it would apparently increase internet traffic to Putfile as well, thereby increasing bandwidth and slowing down the internet :rolleyes:

If they made an Ion "powerpack", containing a revvy, 47ci steel HPA, and a cheapo mask and sold it for say $199.95 at Walmart. Everyone would buy one. Then they would buy 2 of those white box, blue streak paintballs, and then go out in search of the place that can fill the HPA bottle. Once they find that the only place is the local paintball field, and it is FPO, and it costs $70/case. They would go home and paint the shed with the blue streaks while filming for Putfile. ;)

Jesus....this could go on and on.

I think that if the Ion was significantly cheaper....it could change the world of paintball. :wow:

p.s. and I would buy one. :spit_take

[kingpen509]

I doubt it would be much more than they have already. I have watched several stores clearance out everything that was cheaper than the Ion to only stock the Ion after the last price drop.

Now if we get into the $50 cheap - where Wally World has them I think you would see the instances of paintball related injury sky rocket. I know some "outlaw" players play a no head shot rule because they don't have masks. There saving grace is a lack of paint in the air. Allow people not operating in safe conditions to put 300% more paint in the air and you are going to see more injuries.



I hope to god your joking about playing with no mask. Thats the dumbest thing i've ever heard you would have to be a complete tool to even risk it. Or maybe I just dont trust my friends enough to say for sure they wont shoot me in the face on accident.

[Lohman446]

I hope to god your joking about playing with no mask. Thats the dumbest thing i've ever heard you would have to be a complete tool to even risk it. Or maybe I just dont trust my friends enough to say for sure they wont shoot me in the face on accident.

I never said I endorsed it

[Arstron]

I could see it hurting the sales of other paintball guns. Why spend more money to buy a gun with no eyes (or electronics for some) when you can buy a electronic ramping gun with eyes? It would make the aftermarket parts for an ION more popular though.

I still dont think I would buy one for $100 though.

[AnthonyW]

I would'nt buy one but I'm starting to see alot of ions at my local field and many people selling their higher end guns to shoot ions.

[Aeronautica86]

Why spend more money to buy a gun with no eyes (or electronics for some) when you can buy a electronic ramping gun with eyes?

The same reason we and others spend considerably more money on ule mags and mech cockers and such with no ramping and no eyes - we like them, and we appreciate the quality over faster plastic guns

edit: but yes I do see your point as it pertains to the average kid just getting into the game

[Goldie D Pimp]

I've actually put some thought into the Ion craze lately. I was kind of down on them for lowering the market price, etc.

BUT then I got to thinking about oh..... 10-12 years ago when the spyder and stingray first came out.

All other semi auto's were $4-500. Then those two came out, proved to be semi reliable for $200.

Look what that brought us. It made the sport economically viable for many people who previously couldn't afford to have guns to compete against semi autos.

They were a big part of why the sport is as cheap as it is now.

While the overall impact on the sport won't be as great as the Spyder was, the ION is doing the same thing. They're taking the technology that only tournament players use and put it into the hands of the beginners with less money.

It does bug me that every 12 year old will be able to shoot 15bps at once, I think that's a problem that is deeper than just the Ion.


Thanks
Sam Smock
www.vaporworks.net

[Aggravated Assault]

I'll throw one out: If Ions were way cheaper you might see Tippman take a hit as rental gun of choice. A practically disposable electro.

[Skittle]

Paintball would get worse in the eyes of the public. Youve already got jerks that go out and shoot people on the street or cars... you know, all the junk in the news.

When you put that with the fact that anytime you mention your gun to a non p-baller the first thing you hear is, "Is it full auto?". Considering ramping is virtually automatic (dont flame me, its true) you'll have those same jerks rasing hell with their new electro.

I miss the days when you would buy a spyder, learn the game, build the skills and then upgrade. Im only 19, I started pb when I was like 15 and my first gun was a Vulcan 5000 pump, then a stingray. Don't get me wrong, I'd never wish a stingray on anyone. It was fun an exiting though, moving from pump to semi, then semi to electro. I mean, when you start low and move up you appreciate stuff, you learn the game, most of all you learn respect for your marker.

Thats part of the reason many people see the sport as going downhill and destroying itself, noone wants to "play" paintball anymore they want to shoot paint, win, and be AGG. Thats cool, but everyone needs a good beginning. If you start small then I think its better for the sport and the player in the end.

[Arstron]

The same reason we and others spend considerably more money on ule mags and mech cockers and such with no ramping and no eyes - we like them, and we appreciate the quality over faster plastic guns

edit: but yes I do see your point as it pertains to the average kid just getting into the game

Yes I was just talking about the average beginer. The ION is a good deal at $20 for what you get, but why would SP want to take a cut like that on the product they are selling? Why sell a $300-$400 gun for $200, it only cuts back the money you and your stores make. IF they did cut the ION down to be a $100 gun I think there will be a lot of stores that will stop carrying them. It would make there store look bad when you have a ION and a new Freestyle FS-8 sitting side by side, the ION having a $100 price tag and the FS-8 having a $650 price tag. For that matter, having a new $200 electronic spyder with no eyes sitting next to it. If the store owner can make more off the other guns, then why have a cheap gun that you cant make much off of?

[Jackel411]

Ive noticed and odd trend.

Let me first say Im and indoor field air tech, and repair many things during the course of a busy day but recently since the decline in price with Ions ive seen a steady increase of ions that I have to repair... This has made me hate the damn things.. On a busy night I probally have to tear down and replace , relube or rebuild atleast 6-7 ions.. Previously before the price drop it used to be around 1 on a busy night...

The sad part with this is that stupid freakin' smartparts made these guns a royal pain in the but to tear down.

[Arstron]

The sad part with this is that stupid freakin' smartparts made these guns a royal pain in the but to tear down.

Amen!
:hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail:

[Aeronautica86]

Yes I was just talking about the average beginer. The ION is a good deal at $20 for what you get, but why would SP want to take a cut like that on the product they are selling? Why sell a $300-$400 gun for $200, it only cuts back the money you and your stores make. IF they did cut the ION down to be a $100 gun I think there will be a lot of stores that will stop carrying them. It would make there store look bad when you have a ION and a new Freestyle FS-8 sitting side by side, the ION having a $100 price tag and the FS-8 having a $650 price tag. For that matter, having a new $200 electronic spyder with no eyes sitting next to it. If the store owner can make more off the other guns, then why have a cheap gun that you cant make much off of?

stores won't make less on the ion if the price drops; if SP drops the price of the ion, retail stores will drop their price too, but the profit will not decrease - for example, lets just say that SP sells Ions to Store X for $160 a pop, and Store X sells them for $200, this yields a $40 profit (well not really, but lets just leave it at that to keep this simple). If SP dropped the price that they distribute the Ion at to $100, Store X would still charge $140 for the gun and make the same profit (actually more cause they would sell more). This would still translate to a $60 price drop to the consumer. Of course the price of the Ion is likely to never decrease to that level; I'm sure SP has some very smart economists in their marketing team that know exactly how many Ions have sold and at what price they have sold and used these numbers to create rather complex aggregate supply and demand curves that allow them to determine the optimal price to sell the Ion at - in other words, even if SP lowers the price of the Ion, SP isn't going to lose profit because they will only lower the price to a level at which they will sell enough guns to increase their total profit.

[BigEvil]

If the retail proce of IONS dropped radically I would think that either sales have plateaued or they have something new coming out and they want to clear out the existing stock. (Or both)

I have seen people buy them simply because they are so cheap and for no other reason. Not because they 'wanted' them or because they particularly liked them. They got them just out of curiosity.

If it were to go "WAY CHEAPER", then anything without eyes or a ramping feature would be almost impossible to sell. re-sale values would also plumet even further.

[BigEvil]

if SP drops the price of the ion, retail stores will drop their price too,

May not be true - paintball manufacturers are notorious for undercutting their wholesale buyers -by selling the products at retail themselves for less then they sell them to their dealers for wholesale.

[Arstron]

stores won't make less on the ion if the price drops; if SP drops the price of the ion, retail stores will drop their price too, but the profit will not decrease.

This doesnt take into consideration all the ions that stores have before the price drop. I dont see SP taking a bigger loss in their product so that a retail store can make the same amount of money, the stores will take a loss on their as well.

[topazpaintball]

nope they can use c02, and if hyou havent noticed, they HAVE been mass marketed, almost everyone has one as a main/backup!

They require AS CO2, which places like Dicks and Walmart do not sell.

I meant mass market like Wal-mart guns; anyone can pick up a brass eagle from walmart, but you still have to go to a proshop or the like for an Ion.

[Pyroboy597]

The question really is... if the E-mag where really cheap how would it change the paintball world? :ninja:

[NukeGoose]

May not be true - paintball manufacturers are notorious for undercutting their wholesale buyers -by selling the products at retail themselves for less then they sell them to their dealers for wholesale.
Smart Parts is one of the industry's most reliable companies at enforcing MAP pricing. With the old pricing struction (when Ions were selling for 285 MAP), companies were selling Ions for about 140% of what they paid for them (I'm not going to disclose the new dealer pricing, but I figure the old stuff is more or less common knowledge by now since it can be found on PBNation). That's a margin that you don't usually see in paintball guns, and without the support of MAP pricing the market price would have no doubt been much lower than it was before the price drop. The Ion sells well because it's a low-price, high performance gun that dealers still make a decent profit on.

If you want to buy a product directly from Smart Parts, you have to buy it at MSRP, and unlike another large manufacturer/distributor Smart Parts does not run their own factory direct outlet / store.

[NukeGoose]

If you want to buy a product directly from Smart Parts, you have to buy it at MSRP

I meant a store designed to compete directly with other dealers. Sorry for the confusion.

It's hard to say that selling Ions at 225 (and all other items at MSRP) is designed to take sales away from any company selling them for 200.

[68magOwner]

id buy one as a back up. Do i honestly believe i would perform as well with an ion than with my ripper or viking? Absolutley, but, the reason why i own the markers i do, is not only the performance, but, the nastalgia(sp) factor of having top of the line, hard (relativley) to attain markers.

[atm743]

I think it’s an other way for smart part to run other paintball businesses out of business.

they did all they can do it court so they are trying to do what they can with selling a high end gun (which I don’t think they are) at low prices compared to other guns with same performance.

I think it will hurt allot of paintball companies.

But the thing is that if they are selling an ion for 200 but with almost the same performance as a shocker how are they able to sell the shocker? or should i say make $ off the shocker? Do they just make it up from everyone buying an ion?

[RoamingStorm]

the low end market would be killed, every noob would be getting an ion instead of tippmann, spyder pirahna, and mechanical guns would be outdated.

the market for paint would probably triple

[Rick-USA]

Smart Parts did a price drop on every marker they make on April 1. It wasn't just the Ion that dropped they all did.

The Ion has changed the paintball world already. If it were to drop in price even more it would move more of them out to the public. I'm more than slightly biased towards the Ion since I've owned one for over a year now and have had 0 problems out of it. I usually tear down 5-6 a day on a busy weekend at the field and replace the rear hose when it starts leaking. It's not a matter of if it will, it's a matter of when it will. I don't find the Ion any more difficult to tear down than any of the clamshell Timmy's running around out there.

As far as a player needing to learn skills before they move up in the marker capabilities that's another of the long list of traditions that have been thrown out the window. These days it's very common to see first time players with mid-high level markers simply because they have read about them and have access to Mom's gold card. I see it every weekend.

Smart Pars is very rigid when it comes to MAP pricing and enforcing the policy. That's why when the Ion went on sale at walmart.com for less than MAP SP suddenly called up the middle man in the transaction and put a quick halt to it. It was probably on the website for less than a week with a price less than MAP. Even though it wasn't Walmart who was actually selling the marker it does show the influence SP has over it's dealers when it comes to MAP.

Finally what's wrong with a "plastic" marker? It's not like the whole thing is made out of plastic. It's just a shell over the working parts which makes it very easy and inexpensive to replace should some major damage happen to it. What happens when you slide into a bunker with an aluminium marker and it happens to slide on the ground and finds a rock? A nasty scratch that is pretty muh there forever unless you want to replace the whole thing. Glock, Sig, and Taurus haven't found any reason to not build real firearms out of polymers. They can't be that bad. :)

[Pump Scout]

Why sell a $300-$400 gun for $200, it only cuts back the money you and your stores make.

I suspect this is backwards from what the situation really is. I think what SP has is a $75-$100 gun that they had been selling at $300+, and now brought down to $200.

As for what it will do, I think it's going to drive down the price of blowbacks. It's going to push paint consumption up, but I don't think paint prices will shift at all. It will boost sales of powered hoppers, especially if the rental market starts seeing the Ion as a serious option. Those will likely be the fields already running their rentals on HPA. I think that if SP doesn't come out with rental-color-only shells, they're out of their minds. I think it's going to further push the rec game toward what the tournament scene has on a regular basis, and the game will yet again become more unfriendly and attitude-filled.

With weather and money being a consideration here, I finally made it out to a field for the first time this year last weekend. It was to a field that historically has seen mostly DYE/Proto guns for high-end, serious shooters. The Ions now outnumber the others out there. They seem to have their share of issues, though. Come to think of it, the only guns I saw with problems at all during the day were Ions. Not sure if that indicative of their quality (I have thoughts on that...), but it was, to me, a look at what to expect.

[BigEvil]

It's hard to say that selling Ions at 225 (and all other items at MSRP) is designed to take sales away from any company selling them for 200.


If an online store is selling them for $200, then what is a local proshop going to sell it for? What is the markup on a $200 retail paintball gun?

[stop whining buy a mag]

Most of the opinions given so far are correct. It is already hurting the blowback line of markers and with another price drop, I'm sure Kingman would start to hurt. Whether or not it would impact Tippmann as much is debatable. Tippmanns are known for reliability, IONS are not. The reason for that being, you can do whatever you want to a Tippmann and it will still work. The ION demands the upkeep of a high end gun. Not to mention the undisputable lack of quality control that Smart Parts has.

I doubt these will ever become a large percentage of the rentals at fields throughout the world for one reason. They are a PITA to disassemble. I occasionally get kids at the field that want me to clean their ION for them because they saw me take out the bolt on my DM6 and relube it. If the ION was that easy I'd say sure, but it takes an experienced person a good 10-20 minutes to disassemble, clean and reassemble one of these. Not to mention all the batteries a field would go through.

Around here, the ION has started to plateau. I see usually 10 of them at the field, but they aren't selling as great as they were before. The price drop has given some people a little motivation to buy one as a backup though. SP probably has something they are about to drop on the paintball market that will in some way compete with the ION.

The ION is the biggest thing in paintball in the past several years. It can almost be compared to the switch from pump to semi. Now the switch is from little kids with mech Spyders to kids with fast guns and they have no clue how to change it out of rebound mode. Thankfully, AGD is such a niche market that this has little effect. People that purchase from AGD are usually looking for quality not plastic.

[Rick-USA]

Brick store or online store?

National has for years now had an online store under the name www.888paintball.com and at least one other I can't think of the name of right now. If they are selling at MSRP there then other websites and brick stores are selling above.

[m-a-r-k-7]

I think it would put a serious dent in spyder and phirana sales, if the ion was lowered to $100-$150. Tippmann would be fine, because they market toward woodsball and scenario. Spyders and Phiranas are marketed mainly for speedball. Given the choice of a sypder electra for $150, or an ion for $150 I'd go with the ion every time. Spyders are great guns, but I feel that ions are just a step above (not a large one mind you).

[fire1811]

The same reason we and others spend considerably more money on ule mags and mech cockers and such with no ramping and no eyes - we like them, and we appreciate the quality over faster plastic guns

edit: but yes I do see your point as it pertains to the average kid just getting into the game

maybe you should do research before you post. The ION is not plastic. :tard:

[slateman]

I suspect this is backwards from what the situation really is. I think what SP has is a $75-$100 gun that they had been selling at $300+, and now brought down to $200.


Bingo.

Well, if the Ion were cheaper I dont' think it would have a dramatic effect, but it would have a noticeable. The Ion still needs a motorized hopper and a compressed air tank, both of which inccur a substantial cost.

What it may do, as previously mentioned, is force the blowbacks and other CO2 guns to reduce their prices. This would, naturally, allow more people to play paintball on a regular basis.

But there is still the cost of paint, which, IMO, would be more prohibitive factor for those who purchase an Ion. Lets face it, the Ion can lay paint down. Meaning that people are going to be buying a case instead of a 500 round bag like they would with an entry level Tippmann. Now, if Smart Parts can figure out to make paintballs "way cheaper" that would do more to affect paintball then making Ions "way cheaper"

[fire1811]

IMO they should have them for sale in walmart. That would greatly increase there sales

[Aeronautica86]

maybe you should do research before you post. The ION is not plastic. :tard:

the body (cover) is and being plastic it can break; obviously no one here thinks that the Ion is 100% pastic - I would expect most everyone to realize that

[Lohman446]

They are slowly making there way into the rental market and making a two tier rental market. For instance normal marker rental (Piranha, Tippman, whatever), non electronic hopper etc may rent for $10 where the Ion with a cheaper (think Ricochet) hopper may go for twice that. And many people will pay it. How they will fair long term I have no idea, I think if it was me doing it I would find a way to make that bolt removeable without removing the body (be it by customizing the plastic body or by buying aftermarket ones).

[fire1811]

the body is and being plastic it can break

that is just a shell. Its aluminum under it. Honestly I have had more problems with my mag then I my ION.

Its funny that people on AO get mad when others bash mags yet they are usually the first to bash IONS. ???

[Aeronautica86]

I couldn't care less about anyone bashing the guns I use, but that isn't the issue

My point is that the body is an integral part of the Ion - I've never seen one on the field with the body cover off. I just prefer a gun without something breakable on the outside - try breaking the body of a Spyder - it won't be easy. Of course I haven't tried to break the shell on a Ion, but I woud imagine it would be easier to do than with a marker with an all metal body. True, if you break the shell on the Ion it doesn't mean that the marker is completely screwed, but 99% of the people would want to replace it immediately thus sucking more money out of their wallets.

[fire1811]

Of course I haven't tried to break the shell on a Ion, but I woud imagine it would be easier to do than with a marker with an all metal body. True, if you break the shell on the Ion it doesn't mean that the marker is completely screwed, but 99% of the people would want to replace it immediately thus sucking more money out of their
wallets.

You have never tried to but yet you say its going to break? mmmmkkk

Yeah it would suck I guess if for whatever reason you in some way broke your body. But I you can replace an ION shell for $15 ver $100+ other guns

[Dark Frost17]

i think it would make a pretty decent impact on some fields....but do you think woods ball and speed ball would be split further apart?... :confused: ....i see enough ions to make my head explode at some of the fields i have been to....if the price came lower i would buy 1 only to tinker with it.... :rolleyes: .....

[sanity]

While I agree that it will affect lower end markets like Kingman, if people thought for a little bit it wouldn't have all that much of an effect. All the other equipment needed to play pb will cost almost as much if not more than an ion. Additionally, 3 days of play (at field paint prices) is equal to the cost of an ion. If you want to play paintball with any sort of regularity your marker is going to be outstripped by your other expenses pretty quickly - even if its a higher priced gun than an ion!



PS- Read as: My justification for spending money on markers.

[NukeGoose]

I havent seen a major manufacturer that competes directly with their dealers. Most, if all, sell their stuff at MSRP in their store.

Do you have an example?
888


the body (cover) is and being plastic it can break

Have you never seen metal deform? I have never - ever - seen an Ion where the plastic body was the cause of any problem. Can you link me to an example? Try breaking an Ion body while it's on the gun during sutuations normally encountered during game play (i.e. try bashing it on a rock or sliding it across a rock), and tell me if you can get an Ion to the point of breakage before any metal bodied gun would become unusable. And finally as fire1811 mentioned consider the cost of replacing an ion body against the cost of replacing a metal body.

[68magOwner]

Its funny that people on AO get mad when others bash mags yet they are usually the first to bash IONS. ???
i too had more issues with my mag than i have ever had with any other marker (leaky bolt, chopping, generaly poor performance)
then agan, i only owned really old mags, I have played with my buddes tac one and i love that thing to death, and it never has any issues.

[SpecialBlend2786]

I was unaware that 888 was a manufacturer. Just a online retailer. I have never seen the 888 mfr. product line(markers, masks, etc).

Are they new?

888 = National I believe

[mobsterboy]

It does bug me that every 12 year old will be able to shoot 15bps at once, I think that's a problem that is deeper than just the Ion.
Thanks
Sam Smock
www.vaporworks.net

No. Please tell me you aren't trying to represent Vaporworks here and say a statement like that. Stock ion boards are capped at 16 to 17(decimal difference), and they don't come stock with ramping. They come stock with bounce activation, and they have a way to set it to 15 capped, but its still not cfoa psp or any other ramping legal. And if we arent talking about bounce here, what are the odds the 12 years olds are really gonna read the manual enough to manipulate the board to full auto, which i wasnt aware it had.


Tom, to answer your question: It shouldnt but it does. It makes the mass AGG kiddie population think that if the ion can shoot just as fast as the shocker, impulse, timmy, freestyle, ecocker...why get any other one? Its also customizable (another agg thing. Its like the cockers were, with all the bells and whistles. You can make it what you want... :rolleyes: )
so by the less demand, more start to break down and sell for less. So you have timmys, usually going for 800 are now 450. You have dm's, usually going for 900 are now 400 to 500. Then a mass panic hits and everyone wants to dump their guns, until the market is so saturated that you have to sell lower than anyone else in order to sell at all. Then the market starts balancing out. It seems stable, then ions drop price again, and guns are at an alltime low once again

[Aeronautica86]

888



Have you never seen metal deform? I have never - ever - seen an Ion where the plastic body was the cause of any problem. Can you link me to an example? Try breaking an Ion body while it's on the gun during sutuations normally encountered during game play (i.e. try bashing it on a rock or sliding it across a rock), and tell me if you can get an Ion to the point of breakage before any metal bodied gun would become unusable. And finally as fire1811 mentioned consider the cost of replacing an ion body against the cost of replacing a metal body.

I've broken metal pieces (barrels and gun bodies) on the paintball field, so I know that it is possible to get into situations where extreme force is being applied to parts of a marker. I also know that plastic is easier to break than metal. Therefore if I have broken metal parts on the field, I have to assume that I would have broken plastic parts in those same situations, and most likely more often. Because i have broken metal parts on the field, I would assume that any plastic parts would be broken more often because situations where a great enough force is applied to break plastic should occur at higher frequency than situations where enough force is applied to break metal pieces.

And yes, I can say with 100% certainty that a certain plastic object is quite breakable without ever breaking it because I have broken plastic before - example, without ever seeing your wooden pencil of brand X, I know I can snap it in half because I have broken a wooden pencil of brand Y before and know that all wood pencils are created essentially equal, so saying that I can't have knowledge of something I have never seen is not a valid argument.

back to your regularly scheduled programming....

[thefool]

so by the less demand, more start to break down and sell for less. So you have timmys, usually going for 800 are now 450. You have dm's, usually going for 900 are now 400 to 500. Then a mass panic hits and everyone wants to dump their guns, until the market is so saturated that you have to sell lower than anyone else in order to sell at all. Then the market starts balancing out. It seems stable, then ions drop price again, and guns are at an alltime low once again
Thats a very pessimistic view
the way i see it a 100 ion would do several things
it would like you said kill all resale value for a bit
it would probably drive down on kingman and the like
it would lower the cost of paint becasue manufacturures would be able to order lager batchs and make less profit per paintball to make more overall
Yet it still needs hpa/as co2 and a fast hopper so a $100 ion would really be a $250-$300 packageto parents so it wouldnt exacly be entry levle. That or people will run it with co2 and in all likelyhood run into all sorts of probems.

Also, a piont that hasnt been clearly stated, unless the price drop is huge then the market will at some piont slow down almost to a platue beachsue it will be over saturated with ions, which will eventually be discontunied leaving a lot of ions out there just like some spyders. And sp will release something new. Unless the price drop is huge the more expensive market imo wont be extreamly impacted becasue many of its target audience wither want something more prestigios or something of better looks/quality and in all liklyhood already own an ion

i think i started rambling but thats what i say

[TheAngryDrunkenRussian]

Swamp Monster will apear and eat every pig known to man!!!!






Yeha I wasted ............ again

[Aeronautica86]

Swamp Monster will apear and eat every pig known to man!!!!






Yeha I wasted ............ again

even more worthless than the last few posts of mine in this thread :rolleyes:

[Tao]

AO,

So if the ION were way cheaper than it is even now how would that affect the paintball world?

AGD

How would the paintball world change? Well not to be a pessimist but I imagine we would have the Walmarts and other centres carying them. that would mean that it would be the punks gun of choice. Most vandalism would result from Ions rather than the usual Walmart speacials.

Besides I would be wary of it even more if it were cheaper. It already is a plastic gun.

I think the question to ask is what if Automags were cheaper? Noobs of today only know Timmy, Ion, Angel (even though they can't aford them) and Tippman. Granted it may not be conceivable to make the automag cheaper but if AGD came up with something to flood the market it would be nice.

[heres where the real hijack begins lol]

The emag is a very nic gun and well built but what if we took back the features that really aren't needed but keep the gun better than the ion?

Take out the manual override, take out the big battery now that it doesn't need that solenoid, take out the level 10...(i assume that eyes are cheaper than everything needed for the level 10???)

Sight rail....gone

stock barrel...optional (most people buy barrel kits right away)

How much would that save? I don't really know of course. Market it like the RT custom. I bet a cut down emag could go for $500 new.

I don't mean to know all of the features on the emag Tom, I love them all, but people are pretty short sighted when it goes to a paintball marker:

Does it look cool/sex/agg/etc

how fast CAN it shoot (a very meaningless feature which usually makes use of the magical marker fairies)

How low of a pressure can it use (wow who cares)

How much$$$$

To reinforce the point of the ahemm ignorance of most people out there they all have back up guns if their main one goes down...this is laughable when I have mechanical overide BUILT IN!!!! :P let alone a gun which to this day has never GONE DOWN!!!

[punkncat]

I'm going to go on a limb and explore another line of thought. Most of the people playing paintball are young, doing so on a limited budget, and playing renegade ball. I think we can all agree on that to one degree or another.

So you take the average broke kid paintball player. You put a really cheap Ion in his hands and set him loose on the field. His allowance(or whatever) is enough for him to afford very little by way of paint and field fees. So given that, once he has purchased his Ion, he has to start thinking about things like HPA tanks and getting them filled. How about a loader faster than the shaker or barely better he already has? Ok so now that he has begged this rather substantial money difference out of someone....vs the shaker and a CO2 tank....hes gotta find somewhere to play.... As we all know the HPA fill at the local pro shop won't last long in the back yard, and that is sure going to suck. And if you can barely afford paint, a few scubas are pretty much out of the question....Lets not forget that if buddy does decide to use CO2 all the issues that will create....

So our newbie Ion owner shows up at the local pay field.
Well after paying field fees, buddy had even less money for paint, and has a marker that will eat it up considerably faster. So in no time his game is over and he's broke. Well either buddy is going to quit, or if he is smart will remember how cost effective and trouble free it was to play with the tippy in the backyard with CO2.

I can't see the price of an Ion affecting paintball much where the majority of paintball games are really going on. It will seem like a visible change to folks who regular the local pay fields, and will kill resale even more than it already has, but I think thats it.

[thefool]

so now we have to do some analisis to seewheather most people would try to save up more money on for piant or just quit, bucasue you point out that it might accually decrease the populatirty of pb

[b e n]

I think if IONs were cheaper all fields would have to hire a Ion serviceing staff because all the noobs will break then in one way or another. :nono:

[onedude36]

It may soon become the only guy you can buy, use, and lose all in the same day and not care. Disposable paintball guns.

[peewee]

I think that if they lowered the price on the Ion even lower you would see companies like Kingman & Tippmann produce markers with expanded abilities so that they could compete.

[shorty24]

Before I take a serious stance in this discussion, I'd like to honestly know how much it costs to produce each marker (e.g. Ion/Spyder/Tippy/whatever). If it costs only, say $80 to produce one marker, and all the rest is profit, all the Ion really is doing is cutting some of that profit. Now granted, other pb companies are going to take a hit on this, but wouldn't we agree that it would provide incentive to produce/release better or more appealing products at lower cost? Appealing products = large sales = regain profit. All that results from the Ion then is consumer benefit, in this manner of thinking.

/or maybe I'm just way off, but that's my OPINION :rolleyes:

[IronCore]

I think the average person will play more because they can compete with the higher end markers.

So the following would happen (as I see it in my crystal ball):
-Seconds paintballs and zap's spank will have a record sale this year
-Bring your own paint fields will have more attendance
-More people will join tournaments
-15 bps will be mandatory
-High end markers sales will be hurt more than spiders and tippmans
-Body armor and cups will be sold in record number
-AGD will manufacture paintball that is perfectly round and flies straight at $10 a case :D

[NukeGoose]

Even if National owns 888, that still wouldnt make 888 a mfr.
Yes, I realize that. However, 888 is run by NPS. You can call it whatever you want but National owns a retail outlet (888) designed to compete directly with their distributors. I can open up a store called "Kevin's Paintball Outlet" even though my name isn't Kevin. The name isn't important. It doesn't matter if it's called 888 or The NPS Outlet. It does the same thing.




I've broken metal pieces (barrels and gun bodies) on the paintball field, so I know that it is possible to get into situations where extreme force is being applied to parts of a marker. I also know that plastic is easier to break than metal. Therefore if I have broken metal parts on the field, I have to assume that I would have broken plastic parts in those same situations, and most likely more often. Because i have broken metal parts on the field, I would assume that any plastic parts would be broken more often because situations where a great enough force is applied to break plastic should occur at higher frequency than situations where enough force is applied to break metal pieces.

And yes, I can say with 100% certainty that a certain plastic object is quite breakable without ever breaking it because I have broken plastic before - example, without ever seeing your wooden pencil of brand X, I know I can snap it in half because I have broken a wooden pencil of brand Y before and know that all wood pencils are created essentially equal, so saying that I can't have knowledge of something I have never seen is not a valid argument.

back to your regularly scheduled programming....
The fact that you've seen metal parts break on the paintball field break is indeed irrelevant. Can you show me a case where the plastic Ion body has caused a single problem? Plastic tends to break suddenly whereas metal tends to deform. And in this case, the Ion body is a plastic shell around a metal cylinder, which will prevent the Ion body from snapping like an exposed piece of plastic (say, a barrel) would. The Ion body is not a hollow tube of plastic while in use, it's a metal-filled tube of plastic. If you can break a plastic Ion body while it's on the Ion during any situation that might be encountered during play - where a metal body wouldn't have bent - I'll be very surprised.

[MoeMag]

From the beginning I was a fan of the ION… but after being taken over by the noob kiddies it has taken me a while to really respect it. Yeah it is a tupperwear death cannon, but what other marker can you trash the hell out of, then go to the shop and have me put a new body that is a cooler more “agg” color like pink :rolleyes: … none. A new Empire B2, HPA tank, and a virtue board… and that little stock ION is one fast little tourney grade pop gun. I was considering this set up a few days ago but it lost to a fully upped DM6 for some reason.

Look at this thread; in one day this thread has exploded into 4 pages, the ION definitely has the paintball industry on its knees. Cocker had tried to compete with them, but it obviously hasn’t worked based on how many of those new ones I see in the shop. The only thing left for SP to do is market it in a package with tank, hopper, and mask at wal-mart.

Don’t think that the fact that they don’t like to drink co2 is going to stop them… I sell new 47/3000 air tanks for $80. I explain that the air is cheaper in the long run in regards to fill price and gun maintenance and they will 9 times out of 10 take my advice and spring for the air over the $40 20oz CO2, then half of those will go ahead and get a tank that costs as much as the gun itself!

It is going to be hard for another manufacturer to make something better for the price.

[Lohman446]

Anyone ever consider the possibility that it is cheaper to produce an Ion than say a Spyder?

[cpt]

Well, I was a magger for 5 years and then traded a mag for an Ion. Just got my second one. Got both used fully upped and selling off some parts they had in the deal have about $130 in each one. All they need is a trigger, feedneck and ASA. And you don't really need that. A pain in the a** to take apart but I can do it in 2 minutes. Very reliable, light and efficent. I've played with everyting and these are as good as any high end marker there is. I know I will get flamsd for that but who can pull 17 bps anyhow? Downside? Everyone has them. When I have my mag out people oh and ah and what's that. But I am a function over form guy and don't have to have fancy milling and a matching outfit to play. So, what changes? Bk4 Pds for $175 and couldn't sell it, Angel Ir3 for $250? New Nerve's for $475? Pricing has gone down so much the past 6 months I drool when looking thru the for sale section. Butttttttt. I still pull the Rt out and like to kick a** once in a while.

[sbpyro]

What happens when you slide into a bunker with an aluminium marker and it happens to slide on the ground and finds a rock? A nasty scratch that is pretty muh there forever unless you want to replace the whole thing.

I could have sworn that there was a post where someone diving into a bunker and the ion took a digger and the aluminum frame had a nasty bend in it. For me the normal wear and tear on a gun doesn't bother me. BUt on the occassion that I take a header I'd like to believe that I can protect myself prior to protecting my gun. (Of course I have also tossed my entier setup trying to lighten to get the flag back to my base but that is besides the point.)

[Ydna]

The real cost determing factor in the price of a marker isn't the raw materials that go into it. It's the cost to pay the people to work the machines, cost to pay the engineering staff, cost to pay the power bill on the building, etc etc.

It could be $40 to produce an marker out of the raw materials alone, but if the manufacturing facilities, fixtures, molds, and other items cost 500 thousand dollars in the first place, you won't find yourself charging just $45 for your new marker.

In Smart Parts case they have a few other markers that can help take care of some of those issues, so it can't even be easily quantified even if you have all the information.

[Soopa Villain17]

i think it would be good. ive had 2 ions and they were decent, especialy for the price. smart parts still sucks as a company though

[Pump Scout]

I could have sworn that there was a post where someone diving into a bunker and the ion took a digger and the aluminum frame had a nasty bend in it.

Might that be this?
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/SteveGameFace/sapBent2_05OrlandoOpen.jpg

One thing is for absolute certain with the Ion... it's the Stingray of today. Remember when some of the higher-end Spyders (at the time, like the Shutter) were over $300? Stingray came out at $199, then bumped down to $100. Was it as well built as the guns it wound up competing against? Hell no. Did it cause a shift in the market? Absolutely. Does anyone really remember that 8-9 years later, other than old farts with four boxes of old paintball magazines in their basement? Not really. I'd bet there's a bunch of kids playing today that don't even know what a Stingray is!

[Arstron]

For those that are concerned walmart will start carring the ion...

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=4328440

[FSU_Paintball]

I think there might be something to the injury statement Lohman made.

Aside from that, it would allow players to shoot a gun on about the same level as advanced players very cheaply, which means everyone would have one.

But I really don't think it would change a whole lot. The Ion is already $200, meaning anyone who wants an electro and will pick up Paintball as even a somewhat regular hobby will probably have one very shortly.

Here's the rub: fast guns can be had for 70% cheaper than they could two years ago, but paint has not changed significantly in price. There may be a 10% difference in paint prices in the last couple of years. No matter how cheap the gun is, you're still going to be dropping a bundle on paint. And players still won't be able to afford to shoot more paint than if they'd spent $200 on a Spyder instead of an Ion.

Anyways, if you want to really be ripping on an Ion, you need to drop about $300 more for an HPA tank and a fast hopper. So what would really change? Not much. People won't be able to shoot 15BPS streams for $200. I think the balance of players who shoot lots vs those who don't would stay relatively similar to where it is today, and many of the newer ones who DO shoot faster won't be on the field as long because they can't afford to pay for that ROF all day.

Of course, this is all just conjecture.

[cledford]

I'm not sure the long term impact of the Ion - I'm beyond trying to figure out industry trends any longer – but I will say this, the Ion is the first paintball marker in a while I've actually been excited about. It pains me, as I can’t stand SP and haven’t quite yet decided whether or not to break my unofficial boycott with them – but I can say had another company come out with the Ion I would have already bought one. My rational is:

1. Given the inherent inaccuracy of ALL paintball markers (based on the flawed projectile) I don’t think that there is as much difference between $200 dollar ions and $1500 dollar DMs as the purchasers of the latter would like to believe. Sure, the DM shoots slightly faster out of the box, but that still isn’t fast enough for most – so considering board upgrades you’re now looking at #300 vs. $1600 and guess what? They now shoot equally as fast (or close enough that only electronic testing equipment can tell the difference) and otherwise are equal, except that one is MUCH cheaper (over $1200 dollars) and possible more efficient out of the box. A fully upgraded Ion is still half or more than the price of the “high end marker” and that is for a full blown custom build – frame, body, cocker threaded breach, now board, reg and QEVs. At that point you’ll have prove to me that the Ion and the DM or Ego or whatever are not on the same level – because I’ll expect that even if they aren’t, only equipment could prove the differences.

2. I haven’t ever bought a marker I didn’t upgrade to the hilt – I enjoy it, working on the markers at home is as fun for me as playing with them on the weekend. The classic mag that AGD came with a few years back was perfect; you could buy the incomplete gun, but save money by not getting the parts that were going to wind up in the trash – then upgrade to your hearts content. The Ion is so cheap this isn’t even a consideration any more. You can buy one, upgrade and change it as much as you choose (tons of new stuff seems to be emerging daily for the marker) and in my mind, if you upgrade EVERYTHING have a marker as nice (or nicer) that the $1000 dollar plus markers, be their equivalent in performance and still come in $300 to $500 cheaper – AND – have essentially 2 guns at that point!

AGD, I once used a motorcycle analogy in a conversation with you compare/contrast the cocker/mag relationship. To use another, the Ion seems to be the SV650 of the motorcycle world. Sure there are GP racers out there with $100K plus bikes, but to be competitive in 99% of the rest of the venues of the world the $6500 can be upgraded with another 10k and be everything everyone else needs. Furthermore, you could likely put the non-GP racer on the GP bike and the GP pro on the upgraded SV and the pro would likely win every time.

I wish a different company had come out with the marker, but otherwise I think it is an exciting product and holds a lot of potential. I wouldn’t be surprised if SP killed it to avoid competing with their “high end” markers.

-Calvin

[RapidTransit]

Well to answer the original question since they are cheap right now, I'm already trying to make a electro pneumatic frame. When I ore apart the Ion I was shocked at how awful the build quality is of these things. :tard:

[Tao]

For those that are concerned walmart will start carring the ion...

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=4328440

Lol I knew it would happen. There goes the neighbourhood literally. I bet this will end up being the vandals gun of choice.

[Arstron]

So TK, what was the original reason for this thread anyway? Are emag prices going to drop to compete with IONs? :D

/me quits dreaming

[SpitFire1299]

So TK, what was the original reason for this thread anyway? Are emag prices going to drop to compete with IONs? :D

/me quits dreaming
I wonder the same thing.. Is AGD making a new "more affordable" gun!??? :confused: :hail:

/also quits dreaming because i know im not going to get a hint of an answer :cry:

[RRfireblade]

1) In my area IONS are rentals at all the local feilds...can't get much cheaper than that. :) Field owners love them cause they dump mass amounts of paint and are cheap to buy and cheaper/easy to fix and the kids love 'em cause.....well , they dump mass amounts of paint and the don;t have to fix them.

2) NPS's online retail outlet most certainly competes with the Dealers and other online retailers that NPS sells NPS mfg and distributed products to , not sure how that can be made any clearer.

They run sales, close outs and sell products regularly priced at under MSRP. Half the product lines over the years that NPS has sold and distributed ARE NPS made or aquired products sold under a variety of brand designations.

[CoolHand]

1) In my area IONS are rentals at all the local feilds...can't get much cheaper than that. :) Field owners love them cause they dump mass amounts of paint and are cheap to buy and cheaper/easy to fix and the kids love 'em cause.....well , they dump mass amounts of paint and the don;t have to fix them.

2) NPS's online retail outlet most certainly competes with the Dealers and other online retailers that NPS sells NPS mfg and distributed products to , not sure how that can be made any clearer.

They run sales, close outs and sell products regularly priced at under MSRP. Half the product lines over the years that NPS has sold and distributed ARE NPS made or aquired products sold under a variety of brand designations.

Indeed. NPS = ICD = Bob Long = Empire = 32 Deg = Psychoballistics = Icon = Rebel = What's left of KAPP = 888paintball = 800paintball = several other online stores. NPS is like the Wal-Mart of paintball, but in a mostly good way.

I am an NPS dealer, and I have many times bought something from 888 because I found it to be cheaper there than my "dealer" price was.

That said, they have gotten better. All the Bob Long, ICD, and Smart Parts markers are now sold at MAP or above to the general public.

Every once in a while, a promotion will pop up that is under my regular dealer price, but when I check into it, they are running a concurrent discount for the dealers to keep or margin the same while the stuff is on sale.

Margins are damned close on basically anything from NPS though. That's one thing you really have to give to SP, is that they take care of their dealers. I've had nothing but good dealings with them since I set up an account two or three years ago. They take good care of us, and they rabidly protect MAP online, something that other places have long lacked but are catching up on.

Anyway, I like the ION. Taken for what it is, it's a fine marker for a good price. It is not the end of PB as we know it, nor is it the beginning of some sort of "noob" influx. it's just a good performer for a good price.

I believe that the uber-low resale market is due mostly to market saturation rather than the ION itself, since the decline began long before the ION came out. You can't sell a gozillion new uber-markers a year to a population that is the same size or shrinking without the worth of the older markers tanking. That's just the way it is.

[sniperxix]

They require AS CO2, which places like Dicks and Walmart do not sell.

I meant mass market like Wal-mart guns; anyone can pick up a brass eagle from walmart, but you still have to go to a proshop or the like for an Ion.

ACtually now Walmart IS carrying the ION! I spoke to my local PB shop and they are furious. Walmart is selling the ION for only $10 above the wholesale cost Smartparts is charging them.
Soon everyone will have one for the low price of $118.88, and that's before Walmart issues the Price cut gimick!

[CoolHand]

ACtually now Walmart IS carrying the ION! I spoke to my local PB shop and they are furious. Walmart is selling the ION for only $10 above the wholesale cost Smartparts is charging them.
Soon everyone will have one for the low price of $118.88, and that's before Walmart issues the Price cut gimick!

Wal-Mart.com has them at $284.95.

BTW, $118.88 is WAY below wholesale, even at the 50+ piece price.

I think the guy is lying to you. . . . . . . . . . .

[geekwarrior]

ACtually now Walmart IS carrying the ION! I spoke to my local PB shop and they are furious. Walmart is selling the ION for only $10 above the wholesale cost Smartparts is charging them.
Soon everyone will have one for the low price of $118.88, and that's before Walmart issues the Price cut gimick!


which Walmart is that...for that price I would buy one.

[REDRT]

AO,

So if the ION were way cheaper than it is even now how would that affect the paintball world?

AGD

Other than going insane with all the hysteria on the web boards nothing would really change.

[RavishingEddie]

One thing that I understand about marketing is that not always dropping price will bring you more money. Sure you sell more, but your return is smaller and people will start wondering why it is so cheap. They will start to speculate on the quality of the item. This is the case with any item that exists. For instance if DYE comes out with a brand new barrel system called "Maximum Rappage" and charged the same that they do for an Ultra Light. People would buy it for two reasons. It is from DYE and it is expensive so it must be good. If Dye would however charge a meesly $89.00 for a the whole kit they would sell less of them just because people are not used to such cheap prices and would blow them off as cheap.

As far as SP is concered, I believe they have used rusted anchors to stay in paintball. They are relying on pure fad for profits on their ION. It won't be long till Tippmann and Spyder and all others jump on the band wagon and offer an equal if not better option for the same price. Therefor, if kids start telling kids ION's are for dorks then the ION fad will dissapear faster than a $100.00 in a strip club. Next is how SP is using scare tactics and bringing the law into paintball, instead of focusing on beating the competition with clearly superior products. Look at Tippmann for example, they're guns are regular blowbacks, but the cyclone system, Flatline barrels, and the new ACT are going to make them prosper. I am not a fan of Tippmann, but I got respect for them. Patents don't last forever and either do fads. When the IONS start to drop in price I assure you it's because their sales have dropped and they will attempt to keep it in the market, even if it means getting a lower margin.

[NukeGoose]

Therefor, if kids start telling kids ION's are for dorks then the ION fad will dissapear faster than a $100.00 in a strip club.
People bash on Ions more than anything as being a 'noob' gun. Have you been around PBNation much? A good percentage of the posts are bashing Ions / Ion users. Also, have you shot an Ion? I'm not going to say that they're as smooth or refined as most of the thousand-dollar electros, but you really do get a lot for your money - it'll shoot faster than you can legally pull, breakbeam eyes, low kick, and it comes stock with ramping modes. Stock, it can easily compete with any gun on the market, and with a few upgrades, you can make it shoot just as smoothly. I play with a few guys on the PunishersPB.com team sometimes, and I can assure you that they are not outgunned using their Ions.


Look at Tippmann for example, they're guns are regular blowbacks, but the cyclone system, Flatline barrels, and the new ACT are going to make them prosper.
If the Cyclone feed and Flatline barrels haven't caught on yet, I don't think that they will. They work well and do what they are intended to do, and they certainly have their niche in the market, but I doubt that we're going to see a big popularity boom for Flatlines or A-5s like there was for the Ion. Tippmann products are very reliable and backed by one of the best customer support teams around - this is why they are as popular as they are. However, it will not cause a major market shift like the Ion did. Tippmanns are popular and will continue to be reliable sellers but won't suddenly 'take off' like the Ion.

There are a few reasons for Smart Parts to drop the price on Ions. It gives Smart Parts brand name exposure to people entering the sport. It puts pressure on lower-price gun manufacturers such as Tippmann and Kingman (as well as WGP's Trilogy line). It increases Smart Parts' market share. Maybe Smart Parts did their market research and found that they were likely to see an increase in profits from lowering the price. Ions were (and still are) selling like hotcakes.

[zt10]

i have owned an ion and i must say that i was mildly impressed. i was part of the stingray generation and have been through pirahnas, classic mags, x-valved mags, ebladed cockers, with tippmans and ions somewhere in between all of those and now i own a timmy. i must say that even though i hate sp, the ion is the best gun for that price range, i personally believe it is way more reliable than the stingray or the piranha ever was. tippman will keep selling to teh woodsball crowd and those that love the reliability of the tippman. I think kingman has been hurt the most. supposedly kingman is coming out with a whole new line called the VS or something. i am interested to see if they can compete with the ion.

[PnueMagger]

People that purchase from AGD are usually looking for quality not plastic.
I've seen several posts about the "plastic issue" : Let's clear this up right now.

Why is everyone so hastey about buying a gun cause it uses a polymer shell and trigger. It really is very durable, not integral to the marker function, and takes scrtaches alot better than an annoed aluminum marker. And is easy to replace if necessary.

He who lives in a glass house should not throw stones. Let's not forget that a standard RT PRO, Minimag, and Pro Classic come with polymer frames from the AGD store AND aren't any cheaper than an ION -- they even cost much more than a new ION and don't have the features. That trigger frame is a much more integral part than the body shell of an ION too. If you want an I-frame you gotta drop an extra $80-115 to dump the 1X polymer frame.

So lets see...
Buy an ION for $200, aftermarket aluminum body for $65, and roller trigger for $20 = $285
or
RT Pro for $355, Blade I-iframe $75 = $430
or
Minimag/Pro Classic for $230, Blade I-frame $115 = $345

I'm not ripping on mags here, they are far better in quality -- but with all that saved money you could get a hopper or tank or enough Orings and boards to even outlast the mags. You also get firing modes and eyes and better efficiency.

[PnueMagger]

Sorry Tom...forgot about answering the actual question :rolleyes:

It wouldn't chnge the actual sport, just the guns used. If it were in the $125 range and other markers didn't drastically lower in price:

Everyone would either have Ions as their backups, or Ions as their main marker.
All other lower-than-high-end markers would slowly fade out as new players replace older players (who prefer niche markers)
The average highest end markers would drop to ~$500.
The ion's aftermarket upgrades would increase making it become faster, more reliable, and overall better.
Paint sales would see a slight increase due to faster average ROFs and a moderate increase due to PB's increased popularity/affordability
The Gardner's would run for political office (Just joking on this one)

Here's what SP should do...The ION II
Raise the cost of the gun back up to $300. If SP dumped every bit of that $100 into quality, there would be no reason not buy an ION. Invest in 6000/7000 series aluminum for the barrels, gripframes, tiggers, and regs. Tighten up the machining tolerances. Raise the BPS cap to 25ish. And hardcoat annodize rather than powdercoat. This really wouldn't cost that much for SP to do either. They don't even have to dump the Plastic shell.

[Toll]

Ions are rediculously popular locally so I tend to do quite a bit involving them. Things that I'd like to see done to them to make them a little better :

1) Most of the things pnuemagger listed
2) cocker threaded. Personal preference, and I know they'd never do it.
3) Bolt out back as standard
4) Get rid of the crap powder coat. It's nice and all, but a nice hard coat would be superb.
5) Make a standard trigger that emulates the roller style triggers
6) Cheap but effective locking feedneck as stock.
7) Mem.pad instead of that damn irritating button.
8) LCD instead of blinks. Much more user friendly for the new guys who want to turn their ramping off (heh)

I've shot alot of ions..I don't particularly like them, but for the price who can argue. Most of this stuff has been thought of already and are now after market accessories. If they keep dropping their prices to the 150 mark, there is absolutely no reason to buy a spyder/clone.


Slowly my feild has been contemplating replacing our "reactor" packages (98's with Rts) with Ions and revs. a 98 with RT/rev is approx 150 dollars or so used on PBN or similar site. A used ion with a rev is about the same price.

Personally I get a bit sick of hearing the guys at the feild make fun of the kids with ions. They are purely upset because their 1000 dollar marker isn't better than it. My personal favourite is the 06 crowd. Nice, new ego's....They don't shoot any faster than the ions (our feild is capped semi 15) so really that 800 dollars extra goes into their ego...in both senses. By and large ion's are fine for what they are. a few modifications and they'd be amazing for the price for 300 retail NIB.