LOL Looks like Monday is national "Day without an Illegal" day ...

[lopxtc]

From CNN ...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/04/28/boycott/index.html

Well looks like the rich people in my area are going to be without day care and lawn care this Monday ...

Seems like it would make it easier to get them the hell out of here now if they are all marching together :) ... any chance we can fool them into marching en-masse back across the border :)

Aaron

[Dayspring]

In before the lock. :mad:

[lopxtc]

Eh they can ban me ... just speaking what the majority of the US is speaking. Get legal the proper way or get out ...

Aaron

[HOMELANDEFENDER]

Come down on businesses hiring illegals, and it'll go a long way to solving the problem. When a guy hires ten illegals for a demolition job, pays them $10 an hour, and when one of his workers hurts themselves, the boss takes him to the emergency room where WE tax payers pay for it. The Boss doesn't pay health care, insurance, basic retirement, nada... He exploits them, and makes a good buck doing it.

Require mandatory registration / documentation of all workers and you'll see things change. This country does not need an underclass society that gets exploited by businesses. Register them with work visa's that DO expire and enforce it. Then require businesses to provide the minimum health care, wages, ect --- or face fines and or jail. This way we are relieved of the burden of paying for their needs.

I seriously doubt that the US will force them to leave - so lets do the next best thing and make all involved legal -- And I don't mean citizens. They should have to apply for that , and not become an American by default. If by that time they don't want to apply through proper channels, then they should be deported. Just my two cents.

HLD...

[personman]

I hate all this crap, it pisses me off. They arent U.S. citizens, they dont get the first amendment rights.

[SCpoloRicker]

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/6487/owlorlmente5ot.jpg

/although I would be interested in discussing this at the bar..

[fire1811]

IMO its a good day to find out who shouldn't legally be here.

[HOMELANDEFENDER]

I prefer the english speaking version myself... lol.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/HOMELANDEFENDER/orly-45158.jpg

HLD...

[Konigballer]

"IMO its a good day to find out who shouldn't legally be here."


Yeah buddy, and who the hell is going to remove them? MILLIONS of them.....

I cant understand how people in this country can possibly think the US has the logistical, and financial, ability to remove millions of illegal immigrants... :rolleyes: Is there some secret, massively funded organization, with manpower in the millions, ready to get these illegals off the street and I just dont know about it? It sure ain't the INS, Police, or National Guard. You might not of noticed but the INS cant even SECURE the friggin' border, let alone send back the millions of illegals who are in the US already back over it again. And the Police and National Guard, well, there a little busy at the moment as it is.

Anyone who actively thinks the US can remove millions of illegal immigrants back to Mexico is living in la-la land, and might need to put down the paint thinner... The focus should soley be on securing the US/Mexico border to stem the flood, and I doubt we can even do that, not trying to send back the people already here. It's just to late for that. If the government had seriously acted to secure the border 10, 15, or 20 years ago we wouldn't have so many here already, but alas they did nothing. :tard:

[Tunaman]

"IMO its a good day to find out who shouldn't legally be here."


Yeah buddy, and who the hell is going to remove them? MILLIONS of them.....

I cant understand how people in this country can possibly think the US has the logistical, and financial, ability to remove millions of illegal immigrants... :rolleyes: Is there some secret, massively funded organization, with manpower in the millions, ready to get these illegals off the street and I just dont know about it? It sure ain't the INS, Police, or National Guard. You might not of noticed but the INS cant even SECURE the friggin' border, let alone send back the millions of illegals who are in the US already back over it again. And the Police and National Guard, well, there a little busy at the moment as it is.

Anyone who actively thinks the US can remove millions of illegal immigrants back to Mexico is living in la-la land, and might need to put down the paint thinner... The focus should soley be on securing the US/Mexico border to stem the flood, and I doubt we can even do that, not trying to send back the people already here. It's just to late for that. If the government had seriously acted to secure the border 10, 15, or 20 years ago we wouldn't have so many here already, but alas they did nothing. :tard:There are HUNDREDS of millions of people who would be glad to help/make them go back home. They are called Americans.

[lopxtc]

The problem is that it can be done, just not over night ... it will take just as many years to get them the hell out as it took them all to get in.

The problem is that the agencys involved dont have the man power or $$$ to do it, but simply put as they are caught process them the hell out.

We dont need to actively look for them, wait till they get pulled over, turn up at a hospital injured on the job, or whatever ... go ahead and heal them, but them get them out. I dont care which border you boot them across ... just get them out of here.

If they dont want to go through the process of being here legally then they are criminals and should be treated as such ...

Aaron

[Konigballer]

"There are HUNDREDS of millions of people who would be glad to help/make them go back home. They are called Americans."

Really, are these the same millions of Americans who I keep hearing would do the same crap jobs these illegals do for low pay, because I don't think they exist. I'm just having trouble picturing some guy with a family to support ditching a good job to 'take up the cause' and go hunt down illegals... somehow I think his response would be 'go screw yourself, I have to pay for my kid's college in a few years'. :cry:

[Konigballer]

"The problem is that the agencys involved dont have the man power or $$$ to do it, but simply put as they are caught process them the hell out."

I agree, they dont have the manpower or money, so much so that they can't even effectively do what your suggesting in the second part of your sentence let alone something on a mor massive nationwide scale. Now I don't want yah to think I'm happy about them being here, I just think its sadly way to late to do much about the millions already here. The money just ain't there, and it's not going to be. We already have wars in two different countries to fight, and you know how people really hate tax increases. :(

If friggin' Mexico could actually try to make their country not such a craphole their citizens wouldn't be so ready to leave, but I doubt they will ever break their impressive multi-century streak of national suck...

[HOMELANDEFENDER]

"There are HUNDREDS of millions of people who would be glad to help/make them go back home. They are called Americans."

Really, are these the same millions of Americans who I keep hearing would do the same crap jobs these illegals do for low pay, because I don't think they exist.

Unfortunately the so called "crap jobs" are not so crappy anymore. Among other things I'm a Union HVAC mechanic, and I see a ton of illegal's working construction jobs. Anyone who thinks its just the landscaping and agricultural jobs being affected is very offbase. They are taking REAL jobs that were staffed by Americans, and its spreading to many trades including the Electrician, laborer, carpenter, painter, you name it. And its being driven by the greed of the non union contractors who hire them , and thats a fact.

I live in New Jersey --- which has to be one of the farthest states from the Mexican border. If they are spreading in large numbers here, then I couldn't imagine other states. This problem WILL come back to bite the blue collar Amercan worker with families and its happening right now.

HLD...

[Eagle]

I'm an electricians apprentice in the Richmons Va area, and while I haven't seen any illegals working in the electrical field, I have seen them in others-masonry, drywall, carpentry, painting. One thing that I have noticed, is that the guys who I have seen (from latin nations) who are here legally-at least those who work in the electrical field, are some damn hard workers. Those who are here illegally (also from latin nations) tend to stand around jackin there jaws more then they turn wrenches.

As far as I'm concerned, if they are here legally-welcome to America. If not, then they should recieve no rights or services other than emegency medical treatment.

[bleachit]

There are HUNDREDS of millions of people who would be glad to help/make them go back home. They are called Americans.


QFT

[lather]

Unfortunately our politicians are heavily influenced by big business and corporate special interest groups and both political parties are doing everything in their power to keep the illegals here--whether by a "guest worker" program or outright amnesty for the illegals.


This whole illegal business disgusts me. Our government (both parties) dont care one bit of what the vast majority of Americans feel about this issue.

[HOMELANDEFENDER]

Unfortunately our politicians are heavily influenced by big business and corporate special interest groups and both political parties are doing everything in their power to keep the illegals here--whether by a "guest worker" program or outright amnesty for the illegals.


This whole illegal business disgusts me. Our government (both parties) dont care one bit of what the vast majority of Americans feel about this issue.

Amen Brother.

HLD...

[geekwarrior]

"There are HUNDREDS of millions of people who would be glad to help/make them go back home. They are called Americans."

Really, are these the same millions of Americans who I keep hearing would do the same crap jobs these illegals do for low pay, because I don't think they exist. I'm just having trouble picturing some guy with a family to support ditching a good job to 'take up the cause' and go hunt down illegals... somehow I think his response would be 'go screw yourself, I have to pay for my kid's college in a few years'. :cry:


your right, no american would do those jobs....for the same amount of pay as an illegal.....pay a fair wage an there will be American workers to do the jobs.


day without an immigrant huh? stay the --- out of our hospitals and off our freeways on that day too :mad:

did you guys hear they made their own national anthem...in spanish...with different words?!!!....yeah they want to be US citizens, making up there own crap, waving there Mexican flags..... :mad:

[wanna-b-ballin']

day without an illegal? well there wont be any mexicans period at my school this monday, and i could have sworn most were legal. oh well. there went half my school. maybe it will be nice not having to push people out of the way to walk down the halls.
for some reason they congregate in those small areas, and dont move out of your way to let you past. its really annoying. i think i'll enjoy monday.

[Recon by Fire]

And what are the chances that any immigration officials will be on site at any of these marches to round up any illegal immigrants and send them home?

I'm guessing about 0.0%

In Houston the police and INS have a policy that they do NOT round up the illegals despite knowing where they congregate (daytime laborers, etc...). Makes sense.... :tard:

[MagMan5446]

edited for cussing

[Recon by Fire]

Edited for cussing



You always have PBN. We do have OUR opinions, you just don't like them.

[Jaan]

There are HUNDREDS of millions of people who would be glad to help/make them go back home. They are called Americans.Native Americans?

The only reason those "Americans" aren't here illegally is because Native Americans had no immigration laws.

[bleachit]

Native Americans?

The only reason those "Americans" aren't here illegally is because Native Americans had no immigration laws.
:rolleyes:

I doubt those "Native Americans" had to show their passports when they first came to this land either.....

[lopxtc]

Hey so by your statement you would be fine if the Mexicans try to come in by force like other countries have in the past? Sweet Im good with that ... I would love to ship them home in body bags even more than I would love to just ship them home.

Remember it wasnt just the English that stormed into this country; the Spanish (ironically), the French, the Vikings, etc all dipped their hands into this country (Meaning all of the "Americas") and all took land/people/treasures in the name of their flags.

Aaron



Native Americans?

The only reason those "Americans" aren't here illegally is because Native Americans had no immigration laws.

[Lohman446]

"IMO its a good day to find out who shouldn't legally be here."


Yeah buddy, and who the hell is going to remove them? MILLIONS of them.....

I cant understand how people in this country can possibly think the US has the logistical, and financial, ability to remove millions of illegal immigrants... :rolleyes: Is there some secret, massively funded organization, with manpower in the millions, ready to get these illegals off the street and I just dont know about it? It sure ain't the INS, Police, or National Guard. You might not of noticed but the INS cant even SECURE the friggin' border, let alone send back the millions of illegals who are in the US already back over it again. And the Police and National Guard, well, there a little busy at the moment as it is.

Anyone who actively thinks the US can remove millions of illegal immigrants back to Mexico is living in la-la land, and might need to put down the paint thinner... The focus should soley be on securing the US/Mexico border to stem the flood, and I doubt we can even do that, not trying to send back the people already here. It's just to late for that. If the government had seriously acted to secure the border 10, 15, or 20 years ago we wouldn't have so many here already, but alas they did nothing. :tard:

:rolleyes: If you can't understand the difference between attempting to do something about the problem and what we are doing now your being naive. Can we round up every illegal immigrant and send them home tomorrow? No, of course not. Can we quit making laws to there benefit (no random drunk driving check points in California because it was too much of a hardship on undocumented aliens)? Yes we can. Can we start sending people back who we take into custody and know are illegal? Who show up for health care? Yeh, we could do something

[1stdeadeye]

Native Americans?

The only reason those "Americans" aren't here illegally is because Native Americans had no immigration laws.

And look how that turned out for them. Those who don't remember history are doomed to repeat it!

Immigrate legally that is all!

I HAVE A PLAN TO DESTROY AMERICA
Richard D. Lamm
Governor of Colorado
1975-1987

I have a secret plan to destroy America. If you believe, as many do, that America is too smug, too white bread, too self-satisfied, too rich, lets destroy America. It is not that hard to do. History shows that nations are more fragile than their citizens think. No nation in history has survived the ravages of time. Arnold Toynbee observed that all great civilizations rise and they all fall, and that "an autopsy of history would show that all great nations commit suicide." Here is my plan:

I. We must first make America a bilingual-bicultural country. History shows, in my opinion, that no nation can survive the tension, conflict, and antagonism of two competing languages and cultures. It is a blessing for an individual to be bilingual; it is a curse for a society to be bilingual. One scholar, Seymour Martin Lipset, put it this way:

The histories of bilingual and bicultural societies that do not assimilate are histories of turmoil, tension, and tragedy. Canada, Belgium, Malaysia, and Lebanon-all face crises of national existence in which minorities press for autonomy, if not independence. Pakistan and Cyprus have divided. Nigeria suppressed an ethnic rebellion. France faces difficulties with its Basques, Bretons, and Corsicans.


Some people will think that Switzerland is an example of a bilingual country that works. Don't disabuse them of this idea. Let them think that! Don't for a minute point out to them that Switzerland divided their country into three distinct mono-linguistic areas, German, French, and Roma. Let them ignore Emmanuel Kant's warning that “language is the great divider” of human history.

II. Next, I would then invent “multiculturalism” and encourage immigrants to maintain their own culture. I would make it an article of belief that all cultures are equal: that there are no cultural differences that are important. I would declare it an article of faith that the Black and Hispanic dropout rate is only due to prejudice and discrimination by the majority. Every other explanation is out-of-bounds.

III. We can make the United States a "Hispanic Quebec" without much effort. The key is to celebrate diversity rather than unity. As Benjamin Schwarz said in the Atlantic monthly recently:

...The apparent success of our own multiethnic and multicultural experiment might have been achieved not by tolerance but by hegemony. Without the dominance that once dictated ethnocentrically, and what it meant to be an American, we are left with only tolerance and pluralism to hold us together.


I would encourage all immigrants to keep their own language and culture. I would replace the melting pot metaphor with a salad bowl metaphor. It is important to insure that we have various cultural sub-groups living in America reinforcing their differences rather than Americans, emphasizing their similarities.

IV. Having done all this, I would make our fastest growing demographic group the least educated - I would add a second underclass, unassimilated, undereducated, and antagonistic to the majority population. I would allow our immigration patterns to take 50% of our immigrant stream from Spanish speaking countries. I would have this new second underclass have a 50% drop out rate from school. I would radicalize them with dreams of “Atzlan” and re-conquering the American Southwest.

V. I would then get the big foundations and big business to give these efforts lots of money. I would invest in ethnic identity, and I would establish the cult of victimlogy. I would get all minorities to think their lack of success was all the fault of the majority - I would start a grievance industry blaming all minority failure on the majority population.

VI. I would establish dual citizenship and promote divided loyalties. I would “celebrate diversity.” “Diversity” is a wonderfully seductive word. It stresses differences rather than commonalities. Diverse people worldwide are mostly engaged in hating each other-that is, when they are not killing each other. A diverse,” peaceful, or stable society is against most historical precedent. People undervalue the unity it takes to keep a nation together, and we can take advantage of this myopia. Look at the ancient Greeks. Dorf's World History tells us:

The Greeks believed that they belonged to the same race; they possessed a common language and literature; and they worshiped the same gods. All Greece took part in the Olympic games in honor of Zeus and all Greeks venerated the shrine of Apollo at Delphi. A common enemy Persia threatened their liberty. Yet, all of these bonds together were not strong enough to overcome two factors . . . (local patriotism and geographical conditions that nurtured political divisions . . .)


If we can put the emphasis on the “pluribus,” instead of the “unum,” we can balkanize America as surely as Kosovo.

VII. Then I would place all these sensitive subjects off limits - make it taboo to talk about. I would find a word similar to “heretic” in the 16th century - that stopped discussion and paralyzed thinking. Words like “racist”, “xenophobe” that halts argument and conversation.

Having made America a bilingual-bicultural country, having established multiculturalism, having the large foundations fund the doctrine of “victimlogy”, I would next make it impossible to enforce our immigration laws. I would develop a mantra - “that because immigration has been good for America, it must always be good.” I would make every individual immigrant sympatric and ignore the cumulative impact.

VIII.
Finally, I would get America accustomed to living on borrowed money. Debt is economic cocaine; it become addicting. I would start borrowing money, and slowly I would begin building up public and private debt. Debt will be the precipitating factor that will allow us to successfully overthrow the United State government. Look at the progress my generation quietly made in undercutting America's economic strength. I graduated from high school in 1953 and I inherited from my parents a small federal debt and the world's largest creditor nation. I am leaving to my children a staggering federal debt and the world's largest debtor nation.

I inherited an exporting nation with a high savings rate and I'm leaving my children an importing nation with the industrial world's lowest saving rate. I inherited a nation that produced more than it consumed and I'm leaving my kids a nation that consumes more than it produces. My generation invented the credit card, and the average American now has over six credit cards and daily adds to the consumer debt. We have successfully built a debt bomb ready to explode. Remember, debt at some indeterminable point of ceaseless borrowing creates economic chaos, and economic collapse preceded Hitler's Germany, Mussolini's Italy, and Lenin's Russia.

Successful democracy, in the long run, requires some allegiance to and respect for the future. In the short run, modern public financing gives public policy makers incredible opportunities to encumber the future for present political gain. Neither political party has the fiscal discipline to balance the budget. Our work is almost done. We can just sit back and wait for the inevitable to happen. We can destroy this up-start, arrogant nation. Victory waits in the wings.

PLEASE KEEP THIS PLAN CONFIDENTIAL. AMERICA COULD STILL WAKE UP IN TIME.

[BigEvil]

thats a great find 1DE.

I run a distribution and importing center in NJ. The entire industry relize on cheap, 'temporary' labor to function. By 'temporary', I of course mean illegals who are hired via proxy though emplyment agencies. There is a whole underground system in place to make it possible for these people to be here. From fake or stolen SS#'s, to some sort of shady method of doing on-line payroll which makes it possible for these people to get an actual paycheck.

A business that uses temp help is immune from any responsability for the legal status of these workers (at the moment). The Agency is, however, many are small, fly-by-night operations which come and go often.

Holding businesses responsible for any illegal workers found on their premise is the first, biggest, best step towards solving this problem.

YES, it is s HUGE problem.

THen the borders need to be secured. That is not negotiable. Close them. PERIOD. It is not difficult to come into this country legally. Lets put a little effort and resources into that system.


Now, lets think a few steps ahead. If all of these illegal workers are now suddenly made legal, get health benafits, ect, ect. Think of the pandora's box that will open. Once businesses are forced into such a financial situation, focus then will start to shift towards other issues that havent been in the forefront, but have been brewing nonetheless. Take health care costs for example. Premiums are ridiculous. Engery? Ridiculous. What do they have in common? Goverment meddeling and regulation.

Once the light gets shinned on the swine that are running this nation into the toilet they will scurry like the cockroaches they are. THen they will all panic, and the pandering will begin in a effort to save their own political lives. Look at the gasoline issues now. Tons and tons of pandering, nothing to actually fix the problems.

[tropical_fishy]

I just read a really interesting article for my sociology class, which I hate. Let me drag it out and give y'all numbers.


HLD, you're in Jersey, correct? You have a high instance of illegal immigrants because of your proximity to NYC and Washington DC. Be sure the immigrants you're discussing are, in fact, "Mexican illegals" and not Puerto Ricans, who have every right to be here legally. States like Ohio have virtually no illegal immigrants from Mexico, because there is no drive to go there-- no big cities, no centers of economy, etc.

ok, I found my article. Here we go.


California may seem the best place to study the impact of illegal immigrants on the prospects of American workers. Hordes of immigrants rushed into the state in the past 25 years, competing for jobs with the least educated among the native population. The wages of HS dropouts in CA fell 17% from 1980 to 2004.

But before concluding that immigrants are undercutting the wages of the least fortunate Americans, perhaps one should look at Ohio. Unlike CA, Ohio remains mostly free of illegal immigrants. And what happened to the wages of Ohio's high school dropouts from 1980 to 2004? They fell 31%.

This article goes on to discuss how more Americans are obtaining a high school education and higher, and how minimum wage compares to immigrant population by state. For example (this photocopy is hard to read, but I think this is what it says) in Nevada, there is an estimated 7.6% immigrant population. The median hourly wage for HS dropouts is $10.05. In CA; population 6.9%, median wage, $8.71. Down to Ohio (this article only showed 10 states) with .9% population, and a median wage of $8.37.

Can I just say that, for the most part, I have no sympathy for high-school dropouts. None. The American school system is public. You go there for free. If you screw around and don't graduate, you have a slew of other problems that don't involve sitting around with yuor thumb in your butt, complaining about illegal immigrants. Don't like it? Go get yourself a GED, it's definitely possible. Enroll yourself in night school, or community college classes, or the bloody military. Don't like your situation in life? Get off your butt and improve it. Welcome to America.

Now, on to Mexican immigrants (LEGAL ones, which that article ALSO discussed). Transnationalism is a problem for any country with high instances of immigrants. However, expecting someone who is an adult to come into this country (once again, we're discussing legal immirgants) and toss away ingrained gender roles, ties to Mexico, etc, is idiocy. The best we can hope for is that through schooling, second-generation immigrants can become more socialized. I'll be frank here. I hate the way Mexican society treats women, I hate the whole ranchero masculinity BS. But to expect someone, who has grown up, 20, 30, 40 years, maybe more, with this philosophy on what is masculine and what is feminine is ridiculous. People don't change overnight.

Mexicans aren't out to destroy America. Where's the concern about Chinese immigrants? Koreans? Africans of all stripes? Europeans? This article wasn't about Mexico. You made it about Mexico.

[Lohman446]

The median hourly wage for HS dropouts is $10.05. In CA; population 6.9%, median wage, $8.71. Down to Ohio (this article only showed 10 states) with .9% population, and a median wage of $8.37.

Let me ask this. Does the article ever take into consideration cost of living differences? Say the cost of living change during the time period of the study, or the cost of living differences between the states?

[tropical_fishy]

Let me ask this. Does the article ever take into consideration cost of living differences? Say the cost of living change during the time period of the study, or the cost of living differences between the states?


Yeah, but not in the study. I'm going out to a concert right now, I'll type the rest up later.

[psychowarden]

To me, this only means one thing. Monday is the best day to go apply for a job.

[Konigballer]

haha,lol :p

[BobTheCow]

Hey so by your statement you would be fine if the Mexicans try to come in by force like other countries have in the past? Sweet Im good with that ... I would love to ship them home in body bags even more than I would love to just ship them home.
It's comments like these that destroy any shred of credibility you may have had. You hop that thin line of concern straight into racist bigotry.

And as to the mention of a Spanish national anthem... so? Somebody show me where the official language of the United States is English, and why those speaking Spanish, or any other language, don't have a right to express their pride for the country.

edit: This sound familiar to anybody?

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame.
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp! cries she
With silent lips. Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

[kosmo]

Where's the concern about Chinese immigrants? Koreans? Africans of all stripes? Europeans? This article wasn't about Mexico. You made it about Mexico.

Dude, the Chinaman is not the issue here.


/theres a Lebowski quote for everything
//Deport BobTheCow. It will cut down on the number of illegal janitors required to clean nasty hotel rooms the morning after.

[lopxtc]

At least I dont hide behind a false mask ... someone else made the comment that the only reason we are here is because our ancestors came in and took the land, which yeah we did. We relocated either through force or otherwise the people that were here before us.

So to that I responded if they want to try and do that, then I welcome it ... I would prefer a stand up fight to the political crap that has surrounded and shiedled all x number of million of illegals that are here now.

I for one am tired of it ...

People complain and moan that we are trying take over other countries and fail to see what they are complaining about is happening right in their own backyards.

Aaron



It's comments like these that destroy any shred of credibility you may have had. You hop that thin line of concern straight into racist bigotry.

[1stdeadeye]

It's comments like these that destroy any shred of credibility you may have had. You hop that thin line of concern straight into racist bigotry.

And as to the mention of a Spanish national anthem... so? Somebody show me where the official language of the United States is English, and why those speaking Spanish, or any other language, don't have a right to express their pride for the country.

edit: This sound familiar to anybody?

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame.
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp! cries she
With silent lips. Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

Multiculturalism works real well? :rolleyes:

Balkans, Kurds, Qubec, Dafar, etc....

[kosmo]

You want to live like that? Then go vote for it (http://www.nazi.org)

[tropical_fishy]

Multiculturalism works real well? :rolleyes:

Balkans, Kurds, Qubec, Dafar, etc....

America is multicultural without being susceptible to genocide. The problem arises when bigoted, racist regimes take power and decide one race/religion/people is less worthy than others to survive. That's what happened in Darfur (Sudan), Rwanda, Lebanon/Syria, and Germany. It's called ethnic cleansing and it's generally frowned upon in decent society. What would you propose, then? An entirely white America? What constitutes a single-cultured American? I'm white trash, but even I am "multicultural." I'm German, Irish, Polish, English, and probably a few other things. I'm a Euromutt, but I'm white, so do I count? How about JUST people with English ancestory, are they single-cultured enough?

[Lohman446]

America is multicultural without being susceptible to genocide. The problem arises when bigoted, racist regimes take power and decide one race/religion/people is less worthy than others to survive. That's what happened in Darfur (Sudan), Rwanda, Lebanon/Syria, and Germany. It's called ethnic cleansing and it's generally frowned upon in decent society. What would you propose, then? An entirely white America? What constitutes a single-cultured American? I'm white trash, but even I am "multicultural." I'm German, Irish, Polish, English, and probably a few other things. I'm a Euromutt, but I'm white, so do I count? How about JUST people with English ancestory, are they single-cultured enough?

But its not. It goes back to the difference between a melting pot and a salad bowl. The cultures that made up America have all melded into one. Multiculturalism that Deadeye points at are not those that have melded together but those that have tried to coexist while maintaining seperate cultures from one another.

I'm all for America, and an evolution of America. However that means we celebrate a winter holiday that represents something from all of us - not Kwanza, Christmas, and Hanukah(sp) seperately to such a point that none of them are allowed to be celebrated by everyone together. Many people who are not of mexican/spanish decent celebrate Cinco De Mayo(sp), many people who are not Cathoholic celebrate Mardi Gras, etc. We have melted this holidays into part of American culture. If we insist on seperating things, not allowing these cultures to meld together, we only build a powder keg.

[tropical_fishy]

But its not. It goes back to the difference between a melting pot and a salad bowl. The cultures that made up America have all melded into one. Multiculturalism that Deadeye points at are not those that have melded together but those that have tried to coexist while maintaining seperate cultures from one another.

I'm all for America, and an evolution of America. However that means we celebrate a winter holiday that represents something from all of us - not Kwanza, Christmas, and Hanukah(sp) seperately to such a point that none of them are allowed to be celebrated by everyone together. Many people who are not of mexican/spanish decent celebrate Cinco De Mayo(sp), many people who are not Cathoholic celebrate Mardi Gras, etc. We have melted this holidays into part of American culture. If we insist on seperating things, not allowing these cultures to meld together, we only build a powder keg.

The cultures that make up America have not melded at all. Go into any home in any part of America, and each will celebrate different holidays in different ways. People proclaim themselves African-American, Polish-American, Irish-American, Mexican-American. The rise of the "hyphenated American" itself is indicative of just how "melded" our society is. Race isn't the only thing that fosters genocide. An unstable government combined with economic pressures and the belief that one race is better than another cause genocide to occur. Acceptance does not mean assimilation.

[geekwarrior]

It's comments like these that destroy any shred of credibility you may have had. You hop that thin line of concern straight into racist bigotry.

And as to the mention of a Spanish national anthem... so? Somebody show me where the official language of the United States is English, and why those speaking Spanish, or any other language, don't have a right to express their pride for the country.

edit: This sound familiar to anybody?

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame.
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp! cries she
With silent lips. Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!


so your saying that we dont need a natioanl anthem, just one for each nationality represented?!!!...they didnt just sing our natioanl Anthem in spanish, they MADE UP THIER OWN ANTHEM...true Americans there

[lopxtc]

I for one welcome all the other cultures here to America. I dont care what religion you want to believe in, I dont care what holidays you want to celebrate, I dont care what color your skin is ... I do however care about one thing ...

THAT YOU BECOME A DAMN CITIZEN IF YOU WANT TO LIVE AND WORK HERE ...

Plain and simple, I dont give a damn frack about where you came from or who you are ... all I care is that you are here legally. That is it ...

If you are not here legally you are not a ciitizen, you are not protected by the same rights a citizen is, and you SHOULD NOT get any of the benfits that those of us who are do.

The only exception should be school .. plain and simple, do away with the H1B program once and for all. You want to come to school here? Fine you get a one semester visa ... if you dont maintain a certain grade point average you are given a warning, fail to bring that average up you are gone.

If you are not here legally, you are ILLEGAL ... you are breaking a law and as such should be punished as harsh as the law should allow.

Aaron

[Lohman446]

The cultures that make up America have not melded at all. Go into any home in any part of America, and each will celebrate different holidays in different ways. People proclaim themselves African-American, Polish-American, Irish-American, Mexican-American. The rise of the "hyphenated American" itself is indicative of just how "melded" our society is. Race isn't the only thing that fosters genocide. An unstable government combined with economic pressures and the belief that one race is better than another cause genocide to occur. Acceptance does not mean assimilation.

The rise of hyphenated America is one of the problems not an example of why it works. The more we divide ourselves into cliques based an anything the more likely there is to be a problem. There is a massive difference between multiculturalism and multiple cultures.

[geekwarrior]

I for one welcome all the other cultures here to America. I dont care what religion you want to believe in, I dont care what holidays you want to celebrate, I dont care what color your skin is ... I do however care about one thing ...

THAT YOU BECOME A DAMN CITIZEN IF YOU WANT TO LIVE AND WORK HERE ...

Plain and simple, I dont give a damn frack about where you came from or who you are ... all I care is that you are here legally. That is it ...

If you are not here legally you are not a ciitizen, you are not protected by the same rights a citizen is, and you SHOULD NOT get any of the benfits that those of us who are do.

The only exception should be school .. plain and simple, do away with the H1B program once and for all. You want to come to school here? Fine you get a one semester visa ... if you dont maintain a certain grade point average you are given a warning, fail to bring that average up you are gone.

If you are not here legally, you are ILLEGAL ... you are breaking a law and as such should be punished as harsh as the law should allow.

Aaron

Amen, this isnt about race, its about obeying the law...

all you people who are about open borders, why don't you go to all the other poor countries (ther are plenty of them in the world) and round up 12 million of them and move them into YOUR neighborhood.

[Lohman446]

If you are not here legally you are not a ciitizen, you are not protected by the same rights a citizen is, and you SHOULD NOT get any of the benfits that those of us who are do.

I don't buy this. If you are here legally than you should be provided full protection of the State. I do agree however, if you are not here legally, you are gone. I do see a problem with born American citizens taking advantage of there birth right. I know at one point most American high schoolers could not have passed the citizenship exam given to those seeking to become citizens who were not born here.

[grEnAlEins]

The problem is not immigrants here. It is their families there. If Mexican/insert other nationality here illegals/resident aliens stopped exporting money, our economy would grow because we would not be supporting the Mexican/insert other here economy(or ies). The illegals are not going anywhere anytime soon fellas, so we should allow them the opportunity to earn (did I stress EARN enough?) citizenship, at least that way we will not be getting screwed out of tax dollars as badly, because they stay in this economy. After they are citizens/resident aliens they should be encouraged to bring there immediate families here. This way our money stays in our economy. Screw supporting Mexico, that place sucks (I have proof :D ). However, if the Mexican labor force wants to come here and become an industrious American labor force, I say WELCOME! These people are for the most part hard working, and they do jobs that I prefer not to. If they want to do these jobs in exchange for money, cool, we can work out a trade ;)

Just my opinion. Once they are legal, and they get their families here, and their money stays here, there is no problem. I would love to see illegals run out of town/country as much as the next guy, but this is not gonna happen. Yes, illegal entry is a crime, but the idea of EARNED citizenship makes up for this, the illegals would make up for their crime(s) through a citizenship program. Think of it as a blanket conviction of all immigrants, but instead of deportation, they face probation.


As for "ditch day" I think it would be funny if they all got canned for ditching work. They would loose pay-raises and señority ( :spit_take :rofl: I had to find a way to work in a pun. Sorry :rolleyes: )

[SCpoloRicker]

Dude, the Chinaman is not the issue here.



W:Also, Dude, Chinaman is not the preferred nomenclature. Asian-American, please.

D:Walter, this isn't some guy that built the railroads!

/same-same happened with the Irish, the Italians, the Germans, etc., et all

[grEnAlEins]

If you are not here legally you are not a ciitizen, you are not protected by the same rights a citizen is, and you SHOULD NOT get any of the benfits that those of us who are do.

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/3755/deffy5uy.jpg (http://imageshack.us) Have you read/seen the Bill of Rights?


Bill of Rights
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


Amendment III

No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.


Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.


Amendment VII

In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.


Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.


Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.


Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Nowhere does it say Citizen, it clearly says person. This is why resident aliens and visiters from abroad get trials/lawyers/etc. So it would appear that they do have legal protections, or are they not people? :confused: Maybe everyone should need to earn citizenship...

[lopxtc]

Have you read/seen the Bill of Rights?


It would seem you need to re-read it yourself ... and by that I mean the whole Constitution and not just the parts you which to read.

Amazing how you manage to forget to include the preamble to the Constitution, after you all you cannot just quote the bill of rights which are afterall just amendments to the Constitution;

Preamble --

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Seems pretty clear at that point the People is refering to citizens. Just as in any legal document where everyone involved is named in full once at the start and then noted later on through out the document in short form. In this case when you actually include the preamble its pretty easy to see what people is refering to.

Amazing how you can make any document fit your argument when you leave out bits and pieces.

Aaron



Have you read/seen the Bill of Rights?

Nowhere does it say Citizen, it clearly says person. This is why resident aliens and visiters from abroad get trials/lawyers/etc. So it would appear that they do have legal protections, or are they not people? :confused: Maybe everyone should need to earn citizenship...

[grEnAlEins]

Amazing how you manage to forget to include the preamble to the Constitution, after you all you cannot just quote the bill of rights which are afterall just amendments to the Constitution;

Preamble --

We the People of the United States,

Seems pretty clear at that point the People is refering to citizens. Just as in any legal document where everyone involved is named in full once at the start and then noted later on through out the document in short form. In this case when you actually include the preamble its pretty easy to see what people is refering to.

Amazing how you can make any document fit your argument when you leave out bits and pieces.

Aaron

Explain this:

Amendment XXVI - Voting age set to 18 years. Ratified 7/1/1971. History

1. The right of citizens of the United States, who are eighteen years of age or older, to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of age.

2. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

They do this several times throughout the later later amendments (by this I mean not the first ten).

The Constitution, in effect, says that "We citizens say that the government cannot treat people like dookie, but only citizens can vote/partake in other benifits not given to all people." That is the long and short of it... They still have their human rights, and ar protected by our laws the same as a European tourist. This doccument is to limit what the government can do to not only citizens, but all people. It applies to anyone and everyone in the USA.

It is also easy for you to leave out later amendments that change the original frame of reference... When it is appropriate to say citizens the law makers took the time and extra ink to do so. This means that the doccument must say people in certain places for a reason, otherwise it would have been amended to say citizens when clarrification was needed.

[geekwarrior]

Explain this:

Amendment XXVI - Voting age set to 18 years. Ratified 7/1/1971. History

1. The right of citizens of the United States, who are eighteen years of age or older, to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of age.

2. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

They do this several times throughout the later later amendments (by this I mean not the first ten).

The Constitution, in effect, says that "We citizens say that the government cannot treat people like dookie, but only citizens can vote/partake in other benifits not given to all people." That is the long and short of it... They still have their human rights, and ar protected by our laws the same as a European tourist. This doccument is to limit what the government can do to not only citizens, but all people. It applies to anyone and everyone in the USA.

It is also easy for you to leave out later amendments that change the original frame of reference... When it is appropriate to say citizens the law makers took the time and extra ink to do so. This means that the doccument must say people in certain places for a reason, otherwise it would have been amended to say citizens when clarrification was needed.


Heres something for you to try:

Go to Mexico and slit your wrists, than go to a Mexican hospital and see if you can get any help without first swiping a visa.

Second: drive your son off to a gang neighborhood in downtown LA and drop him off. When your son is killed and the murderers take off to Mexico, see how hard it is to get the MEXICAN GOVERNMENT to extradite said murderer for trial and prosectution(google "david march")

thirdly: try living in Mexico without legal status, see how long it takes for them to throw you out.

Fourth: try taking your sick son or daughter to an emergency room in CA and see how long you have to wait to get service(I waited 6 hours with my son). 13 ER rooms have been closed down in LA county in the last few years, with more to follow. Primary reason: non paying patients.

Fith: Send your child to a school in the SoCal, and see what kind of education he gets when over 50 percent of his/her classmates are holding the whole class back because they dont speak English. Than try taking your undercut wage and budget for private school.

My parents waited 8 years to get approved to immigrate, and it meant working 3 jobs to be able to afford to do so. How fair is it to them and all other legal immigrants to go through that process when millions are cutting in line just because they are close to the border?

I could go on and on....

[1stdeadeye]

America is supposed to be a melting pot where people fit in. If my great great grandparents had demanded everyone speak to them in Italian and refused to learn English what would have happened.

We are a melting pot, not a tossed salad. Learn our language and our ways if you wish to integrate into our society.

[nippinout]

Being against illegal immigration is not racist.

What is racist/classist is support for illegal immigrants, because "They do the jobs 'regular (white) Americans do not want to do." Sure, let's let the illegals stay in order to treat them as second class people with little legal recourse in any event of negligence/exploitation/abuse by the employer.

African-American. Asian-American. WTF?

When did the Politically Correct people deem it necessary to treat non-whites as a seperate sect of citizen? To label Americans with a suffix is racist itself! When was the last time any white person was called European-American? "My fellow Anglo-Saxons!"

Immigration is good. But when the immigration is illegal, and the illegals are uneducated, unskilled, with little allegiance to America, why would we want it? Yes, illegals sometimes pay income taxes through their fake SSN, but what about the under-the-table cash. What about the fact that Mexico's economy is dependent upon money being sent to them from illegals here in America?

My parents, along with everybody else in my extended family that is older than me, immigrated LEGALLY to America. We learned to speak English. We got jobs. We spent that hard earned money here in America. We have insurance. We pay taxes. My family came here with little money and little knowledge of English. At one point, we had 10 people living in a 3 bedroom house. My extended family now has 3 college graduates and 2 currently in college. Blaming the government for not aiding immigrants (legal or not) is a poor and pitiful excuse.

[grEnAlEins]

America is supposed to be a melting pot where people fit in. If my great great grandparents had demanded everyone speak to them in Italian and refused to learn English what would have happened.

We are a melting pot, not a tossed salad. Learn our language and our ways if you wish to integrate into our society.
Fine, I say we make the national language what Franklin and Jefferson wanted to. The national language is now Greek. Good luck learning :D As a Greek AOer, I will help you:
Γειάσου. Πώς είστε;
Hi, How are you?

[nippinout]

Fine, I say we make the national language what Franklin and Jefferson wanted to. The national language is now Greek. Good luck learning :D As a Greek Aoer, I will help you:
Γειάσου. Πώς είστε;
Hi, How are you?

Benjamin Franklin also wanted the turkey to be the National Bird. Delicious, patriotic bird.

[grEnAlEins]

Benjamin Franklin also wanted the turkey to be the National Bird. Delicious, patriotic bird.
:rofl: Very true, those things are delicious :p (not silly, but licking lips)

This Thanksgiving I will admire a turkey and eat an eagle...

[grEnAlEins]

What about the fact that Mexico's economy is dependent upon money being sent to them from illegals here in America?
That is what I have said 3 times now. I say we let people say provided they are employed and EARN citizenship. They should also be encouraged to bring their relatives over so our money stays here. I believe I posted this exact thing a little ways up.

[nippinout]

That is what I have said 3 times now. I say we let people say provided they are employed and EARN citizenship. They should also be encouraged to bring their relatives over so our money stays here. I believe I posted this exact thing a little ways up.

Letting the illegals stay sends the wrong message.

The same wrong message was sent in 1986 under Reagan's amnesty program. Illegals and those thinking of entering America ILLEGALLY see this: "The stupid Americans... Every 10 years they grant amnesty! Ha Ha!"

I believe Section 1 of the 14th amendment must have its 'Jus Soli' changed to only grant citizenship to those born when the mother is on US soil LEGALLY.

These people want to be Americans?

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/images/upsidedown.jpg

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/images/aztlan004.jpg

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/images/aztlan005.jpg

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/images/stolen.jpg

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/images/stolen002.jpg

http://www.nationalledger.com/artman/uploads/protest.jpg

Surely, those upside-down American flags indicate somone in duress or immediate danger.

BTW, this isn't a civil rights issue no matter how much people want it to be.

Vicente Fox should not be the most powerful man in the United States of America.

http://polipundit.com/images/northamerica.jpeg

[BigEvil]

Believe it or not, there is a solution to this problem;

-Declare English the national language

-Close the border.

-Impose a $500,000 fine per offense on any company that employs or contracts the services of any illegal person.

-Institute either a migrant worker program, or provide a path to citizenship. Include everything that would be included in a normal application - learn English and American history. Anything else is secondary. Also, institute a 5 year probation for anyone that falls under this catagory. This means they cant vote, which would eliminate alot of the political BS. As much as I would theoretically like to see every single illegal deported, it is just not feasable.

-Get serious about upgrading the social security system. Walmart knows who you are when you try to pay with a credit card, but potential employers cannot perform addequate backround checks on applicants. Outsource the nation ID system to ANY major credit card company. It will put an end to identity fraud.


Unfortunately, the 'leaders' of this country do not have the balls or the motivation to solve any problem, let alone a serious one. Most of congress wont even admit that 911 was an act of war. If they cant even get that right.. ?

[evildead420]

anybody care to have some of my bean dip.
/ok, how about a taco.
//<< did i do this right?
:dance:

[grEnAlEins]

I believe Section 1 of the 14th amendment must have its 'Jus Soli' changed to only grant citizenship to those born when the mother is on US soil LEGALLY.

These people want to be Americans?

(pics deleted for Kosmo)

Surely, those upside-down American flags indicate somone in duress or immediate danger.

BTW, this isn't a civil rights issue no matter how much people want it to be.

Vicente Fox should not be the most powerful man in the United States of America.

I can agree tha amnesty is wrong, that is why they would be forced to earn citizenship over a period of 6-8 years. If they do not make the cut, the government has a list of names and addresses. I could also go for the "Born to LEGAL mothers" idea. However this wont fix the facing us now, those born here to illegals are already citizens (no ex post facto). It will help in the future though. It would be a good plan. Even if you could kick the illegals out, which I would promote if it were possible, they would just come back again...

As for Vincente, you are right, he should be tarred and feathered, but that is not an issue after the illegals are legalized and their families that they suport come here. The his economy will fail, and he will be exposed for the :tard: he is...

[grEnAlEins]

Believe it or not, there is a solution to this problem;

-Declare English the national language
That is just asinine
-Close the border.
I agree, I believe I said we should electrify the fense and make a jungle of razor wire, although I may have deleted it
-Impose a $500,000 fine per offense on any company that employs or contracts the services of any illegal person.
great idea, that would help a great deal
-Institute either a migrant worker program, or provide a path to citizenship. Include everything that would be included in a normal application - learn English and American history. Anything else is secondary. Also, institute a 5 year probation for anyone that falls under this catagory. This means they cant vote, which would eliminate alot of the political BS. As much as I would theoretically like to see every single illegal deported, it is just not feasable.
Bingo, except the English thing. This is almost exactly what Ive been saying.
-Get serious about upgrading the social security system. Walmart knows who you are when you try to pay with a credit card, but potential employers cannot perform addequate backround checks on applicants. Outsource the nation ID system to ANY major credit card company. It will put an end to identity fraud.
Or revert it to FDR's New Deal, which created the program on a voluntary basis, and forbid the government from moving/borrowing the SS money elsewhere in the budget.

Unfortunately, the 'leaders' of this country do not have the balls or the motivation to solve any problem, let alone a serious one. Most of congress wont even admit that 911 was an act of war. If they cant even get that right.. ?
most of the immigration oriented stuff you want is being proposed now

See the red text

[bleachit]

how is declaring English the national language asinine? you want to be a citizen of a country you should WANT to learn their language. I, personally, am sick of seeing spanish on everything I buy. why should I have to learn a language, assuming the illegals keep coming spanish may one day be more prominate than english, that is foreign to MY country because illegals came in a made it ours? sorry, you want in you need to learn English. How is that even an issue? I shouldnt have to know spanish to be able to communicate with people who shop where I work. You dont like our language? dont want to learn it? then go somewhere LEGALLY that speaks it. The US does NOT speak Spanish, nor should our nation have to because people ILLLEGALLY (cant stress that word enough, as many people cant seem to grasp a hold of it in general) entered our nation and are trying to change it to benefit themselves. They want political reform? They already have a messed up country where they came from. Go protest and reform that nation, leave ours to those who are here LEGALLY. Thanks, we can take care of our nation without your ILLEGAL immigration and protests.

to those ILLEGAL immigrants

kthnxbye (go home)

/the US is NOT your home
//go home and EARN immigration rights like the LEGAL immigrants did
///learn English
////seriously.

[nippinout]

The US does NOT speak Spanish, nor should our nation have to because people ILLLEGALLY (cant stress that word enough, as many people cant seem to grasp a hold of it in general) entered our nation and are trying to change it to benefit themselves.

Don't stop empasizing that. I've seen and heard ILLEGAL immigrants referred to as 'Undocumented Workers".

[bleachit]

hows this:

people who have crossed our borders without the consent of the US govt. and by circumventing our nations immigration laws are......


ILLEGAL!!!!!!!!!

no, you arent an undocumented worker, you are an ILLEGAL immigrant. go try to be an undocumented worker in ANY other country and see how fast your rear end is removed. seriously.


I have nothing against LEGAL (notice the lack of "il" denoting that those are actually here within the laws of our nation and assumingly CONTRIBUTE beneficially to OUR society) immigrants. LEGAL immigrants are what make our country great... Especially when they learn our language and realize that "American Dream". The difference between ILLEGAL and LEGAL immigrants? LEGAL immigrants become AMERICAN. ILLEGALS should NOT. Especially if they are sending everything back to Mexico... someone said earlier that the Mexican economy would collapse if the money from ILLEGALS from the US dried up. how pathetic is that? lets see.... an "organism" feeding off another "organism" in which only the "organism" which is feeding benefits... whats that called?


http://alpha1.fmarion.edu/~bio106lab/Resources/lamprey.jpg


Congrats Mexico, you are officially a parasite.


edit: it should be noted that I have disdain for all those who violate the laws of the U.S. I am an equal opportunity law breaker "hater". Laws are there for a reason, that reason is not that they "should be broken".

double edit: that dislike for lawbreakers includes the woman who cut me off on the way home without a turn signal while the 7-9 yr old in the front seat was leaning against the dashboard without his seatbelt on. Or those punk kids who tossed a massive object at my truck while driving home a few days ago which splattered all over my truck, scratched straight through the paint and very easily could have hit me in the face while doing 30mph as my window was down, on top of the fact my visibility was nearly cancelled out due to the thick layer of garbage on my window, and could have caused a nice accident.

in conclusion: people suck, obey the laws or be PENALIZED!!!!!!!!

/or punished
//Punisher pwns
///I bet hed close the borders
////or just scare everyone straight.


/sigh
//futile?

[grEnAlEins]

how is declaring English the national language asinine?
It is not the national language. How would you like to be forced to learn spanish? or another language?
you want to be a citizen of a country you should WANT to learn their language.
We do not have a legally set language
I, personally, am sick of seeing spanish on everything I buy.
Don't buy it? :confused: A wise man once said "Vote with your dollars"
why should I have to learn a language,
Why should they?
assuming the illegals keep coming spanish may one day be more prominate than english,
English immigrants forced English upon this land, why dont you learn a native dialect?
that is foreign to MY country because illegals came in a made it ours?
I forgot where I was, I love The United States of Bleachit
sorry, you want in you need to learn English.
or a Native American language? Or Greek like your forefather's wanted?
How is that even an issue?
YOU sir, made it an issue
I shouldnt have to know spanish to be able to communicate with people who shop where I work.
They should not have to learn English either. If you want their money, cater to their needs. That is how a business works, believe it or not. If you do not want there business, tell them that untill they speak English, they should shop elsewhere
You dont like our language?
I do actually
dont want to learn it?
I already have, does not mean that everyone must
then go somewhere LEGALLY that speaks it.
You first, go to England, I will meet you there after I get my degree
The US does NOT speak Spanish,
Or English for that matter
nor should our nation have to because people ILLLEGALLY (cant stress that word enough, as many people cant seem to grasp a hold of it in general) entered our nation and are trying to change it to benefit themselves.
Is this not what the white settlers have done?
They want political reform?
It would appear so
They already have a messed up country where they came from.
On the contrary, they have had but one free election.
Go protest and reform that nation, leave ours to those who are here LEGALLY.
I cannot rebut this, so I will say "Fair Enough"
Thanks, we can take care of our nation without your ILLEGAL immigration and protests.
This is also true, the protest is kinda stupid
to those ILLEGAL immigrants

kthnxbye (go home)

/the US is NOT your home
"Home is where you make it, everybody knows that." :rofl:
//go home and EARN immigration rights like the LEGAL immigrants did
That is the exact thing that Bush and the Senate are pushing for.
///learn English
Or a Native dialect, or Greek, or Spanish, any work...
////seriously.
see red

"someone said earlier that the Mexican economy would collapse if the money from ILLEGALS from the US dried up. how pathetic is that?"

That was me a couple times, as well as three or four others, by the way.

And yes, Mexico certainly is a parasite.

[bleachit]

lets see... what language is EVERY document that established the United States of Amercia? Umm lets give you some multiple choice, make it easy.

A.) German
B.) Spanish
C.) English
D.) Klingon
E.) Shyriiwook


I give you a clue, its not Spanish.

What language is spoken in Congress, by our Courts and, on occasion, by our President? Once again, its NOT Spanish.

Lets see, the US is MY country for several reasons

A.) I was legally born here.
B.) my parents were legally born here
C.) I was forced to learn the common language spoke here
D.) I am a registered Republican, registered with our lovely Civil Serice
and finally
E.) I am 24 years old and have already partaken in 2 of MY nations Presidential elections.

so yes, the U.S. is MY country because I am here LEGALLY am a US citizen and actively participate in OUR Govt. Also, should MY nation need me and enact a draft, I have made MYSELF available to MY country to go fight for MY country.


Mexico had one free election? Whose fault is that? the only people to blame are the Mexicans. Seriously, we are trying in Iraq, but forcing true democracy is a pain in the rear. you want free elections? go spend your energy illegally entering another nation changing YOUR nation....


maybe if the millions who are in the US ILLEGALLY would go back to Mexico in force they could actually bring free elections to THEIR country and maybe make a place they might actually want to stay.



you can write in red all you want.... bottomline is they are breaking US law and are still

ILLEGAL


edit: if I moved to any other nation, legally or otherwise, if I wanted to survive I would be forced to learn their language. I wouldnt expect an entire nation to learn my language to accomodate me, especially if I was not there legally.

[grEnAlEins]

D.) Klingon :rofl: ...
What language is spoken in Congress, by our Courts and, on occasion, by our President? Once again, its NOT Spanish.
It is still not the legal language
Lets see, the US is MY country for several reasons

A.) I was legally born here.
Me too, the same is true for many of the people protesting
B.) my parents were legally born here
Mine too, the same is true for many of the people protesting
C.) I was forced to learn the common language spoke here
You were not legally forced to do anything, you ELECTED to due to ease. This is the same reason they come here instead of staying in Mexico
D.) I am a registered Republican, registered with our lovely Civil Serice
and finally
Me too, the same is true for many (although not too many) of the people protesting
E.) I am 24 years old and have already partaken in 2 of MY nations Presidential elections.
I am not 24, I missed the age cut off by a few months last time (no big deal, my guy won)
so yes, the U.S. is MY country because I am here LEGALLY am a US citizen and actively participate in OUR Govt. Also, should MY nation need me and enact a draft, I have made MYSELF available to MY country to go fight for MY country.
Me too, the same is true for many of the people protesting

Mexico had one free election? Whose fault is that? the only people to blame are the Mexicans. Seriously, we are trying in Iraq, but forcing true democracy is a pain in the rear. you want free elections? go spend your energy illegally entering another nation changing YOUR nation....
True, they are to blame. They are immigrating out of ease of survival, same reason you learned English

maybe if the millions who are in the US ILLEGALLY would go back to Mexico in force they could actually bring free elections to THEIR country and maybe make a place they might actually want to stay.
Very True


you can write in red all you want.... bottomline is they are breaking US law and are still
Fine, Blue it is
ILLEGAL
True, this is why there would be a probation. As I said above, it is like taking the ILLEGALS, and convicting them and sentencing them to probation. This is all in one foul swoop, avoiding messy and expensive litigation.

edit: if I moved to any other nation, legally or otherwise, if I wanted to survive I would be forced to learn their language.
True, but I believe all other nations have legal languages, so you would have to
I wouldnt expect an entire nation to learn my language to accomodate me, especially if I was not there legally.
Neither do they. You only need to speak Spanish if you want their businesses or services. It is that simple. They "Vote with {their} dollars" I urge you to follow in suit.

EDIT: I am going to bed now, I have a 9AM final tomarrow.

[bleachit]

I have no problem with anyone, here legally, protesting. when the word illegal, no undocumented should not be used, comes in, then I have a problem.

thats what this is about illegal immigrants trying to gain political clout. If you are here legally? protest all you want, lose your job on Tuesday. oh wells.


I was forced to learn English, my parents, my schools and the general public around me gave me no other options. I had no choice but to learn English.


I hate finals.... spending all day tomorrow studying... with a cold

/needs more nyquil.

[nippinout]

The whole 'probation' thing sends the message that we are too weak/impotent/lazy/cheap to enforce any of our PRESENT laws or borders.

BUILD THE DAMN WALL. Why aren't we building a wall with Canada? We should. But we also don't have millions of Canadians ILLEGALLY entering America. Priorities people! :D

[PyRo]

Someone call me when national ship em' back day comes up.

[tropical_fishy]

Can I just say building a wall is the grown-up equivilent of the child playing hide-and-go-seek, covering his eyes, and thinking, "I can't see them, so they can't see me!"?

Yeah. Pointless. You'll still have Coyotes taking people across the border for $$, you'll still have people dying in the desert, and you'll be strapped for cash because you just built a huge-^%& wall for no reason other than symbolic separation, a la Berlin.

[bleachit]

you are so right...


http://www.epa.gov/Arkansas/6xa/border_big.jpg


+


http://tri.army.mil/LC/CS/csa/phalanx.jpg



= Zone of Death!!!



Can someone say reality TV? pays for itself.


/joke
//Ha Ha

[nippinout]

The Israelis built a wall. That wall did a horrible job.

It's such a horribly ineffective wall that the number of suicide bombings drastically dropped.

[geekwarrior]

Can I just say building a wall is the grown-up equivilent of the child playing hide-and-go-seek, covering his eyes, and thinking, "I can't see them, so they can't see me!"?

Yeah. Pointless. You'll still have Coyotes taking people across the border for $$, you'll still have people dying in the desert, and you'll be strapped for cash because you just built a huge-^%& wall for no reason other than symbolic separation, a la Berlin.



umm...no, its not pointless.

Coyotes arent helping people over a fence or wall, they drive them over our currently wide open border. And the plan isnt just some 6 ft wall you can hop over, its a fence, 30 ft inbetween, and than fence, both with razor wire on the top, and elctronic monitering eqipment. Will it stop everyone? No, but it sure will slow the wave of them. In some Arizona areas they estimate 1000 crossing A DAY. That number doubles when people start talking about amnesty and guest worker programs. You must not live in CA or Arizona, that or are very ignorant to what is going on in your backyard


And the Berlin wall worked quite well.

[tropical_fishy]

The Israelis built a wall. That wall did a horrible job.

It's such a horribly ineffective wall that the number of suicide bombings drastically dropped.


Their wall covers a whole lot less space. If we were enclosing an area the size of the Gaza strip, that'd be one thing. We're fencing out half a continent. Now that's a horse of a different color.


Our wall, should we build it, is still going to have the problems the border has now. Are we going to hire people to stand guard over the wall? How about snipers? Are we going to prevent people from digging UNDER the wall? How about that stuff that keeps rabbits out of gardens?

[geekwarrior]

Their wall covers a whole lot less space. If we were enclosing an area the size of the Gaza strip, that'd be one thing. We're fencing out half a continent. Now that's a horse of a different color.


Our wall, should we build it, is still going to have the problems the border has now. Are we going to hire people to stand guard over the wall? How about snipers? Are we going to prevent people from digging UNDER the wall? How about that stuff that keeps rabbits out of gardens?


yes, there will be guard towers with watchman, not sure about the snipers, although that is necessary. The coyotes had a stand off with the border patrol agents about a month ago, the coyotes had a .50 caliber mounted on a humvee...our border patrol agents arent that well armed. This isnt also just about people coming to work its about drug runners and oh yeah, maybe you forgot about 9.11?

[bleachit]

I think the phalanx rigged with infrared would be pretty sweet.

wont need any guards either. At 6000 rounds/minute you wont need to worry about no .50, yeah, it shoots 20mm.

[tropical_fishy]

yes, there will be guard towers with watchman, not sure about the snipers, although that is necessary. The coyotes had a stand off with the border patrol agents about a month ago, the coyotes had a .50 caliber mounted on a humvee...our border patrol agents arent that well armed. This isnt also just about people coming to work its about drug runners and oh yeah, maybe you forgot about 9.11?

Now MEXICO was involved in 9/11? Jesus, where have I been? Someone call the news van!

Edit: Don't even get me started on drugs. This has been my pet subject for months now, and I know more about cocaine than I ever wanted/needed to know. I just wrote a paper on it, in fact.

[grEnAlEins]

The coyotes had a stand off with the border patrol agents about a month ago, the coyotes had a .50 caliber mounted on a humvee...our border patrol agents arent that well armed.

This isnt also just about people coming to work its about drug runners and oh yeah, maybe you forgot about 9.11?
1) Does anyone remember like two months back when the Mexican Military dudes were smuggling people over? I will try to find a link to the story.

2)I thought that they came in from Canadia :confused:

EDIT:
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/3/7/134033.shtml
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43754
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48485
http://newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/3/31/134212.shtml
http://www.vdare.com/francis/conquest.htm

Here is info on one of the many tunnels they have found, Walls wont work too well against these...
http://www.infowars.com/articles/immigration/smuggling_tunnel_found_on_border.htm

[geekwarrior]

Now MEXICO was involved in 9/11? Jesus, where have I been? Someone call the news van!


you are ignorant....

there have been numerous reports about middle eastern men with terrorsist ties crossing the border...don't you get the news on that little island of yours?

here ya go (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24987)

one of many such news stories

[bleachit]

at least if there are any illegals watching this thread they now know how to apply for citizenship...


http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/imgad?id=CPbipoHUrKCFXxDYBRhPMggE0U6B8TAHbg&ai=BPWuZ2pJVRMXpOYmO0AGqyoWtBa3G-gXDyOPjAcCNtwGg4BQQARgBIN3BmgNIkjlQiemX2_______AaA B-Pep_wOyARB3d3cuYXV0b21hZ3Mub3JnugEJNzI4eDkwX2FzyAE C2gE3aHR0cDovL3d3dy5hdXRvbWFncy5vcmcvZm9ydW1zL3Nob 3d0aHJlYWQucGhwP3A9MjE0Mjc3OJUCEDA0Cg


thank you google ads.

[tropical_fishy]

you are ignorant....

there have been numerous reports about middle eastern men with terrorsist ties crossing the border...don't you get the news on that little island of yours?

here ya go (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24987)

one of many such news stories


You realize you just linked me to an EXTREMELY conservative, EXTREMELY biased news source, correct? May as well have said, "go check out FOX!"

Yes, in fact, I do get the news. I also read books, magazines, and the newspaper. I do not rely on one, biased source for all my information.

[grEnAlEins]

at least if there are any illegals watching this thread they now know how to apply for citizenship...


[IMG apply today (pic cut for kosmo) /IMG]


thank you google ads.
:rofl: excellent.

[geekwarrior]

You realize you just linked me to an EXTREMELY conservative, EXTREMELY biased news source, correct? May as well have said, "go check out FOX!"

Thats all you have to say about that? ignore the arguement, attack the source?
sorry, i just typed it in google, and that was the first that came up...is it so hard for you to imagine anyways? What is so biased about the idea? I've heard the original story on multiple news channels.

[nippinout]

Their wall covers a whole lot less space. If we were enclosing an area the size of the Gaza strip, that'd be one thing. We're fencing out half a continent. Now that's a horse of a different color.


Our wall, should we build it, is still going to have the problems the border has now. Are we going to hire people to stand guard over the wall? How about snipers? Are we going to prevent people from digging UNDER the wall? How about that stuff that keeps rabbits out of gardens?

US Border Patrol has fielded a Predator UAV.
http://www.darkangelreports.com/UAV%20Gallery/predator%20b.jpg

Construction of a fence will have fencing that does not stop at surface level.

Because it's too difficult to build and defend a fence, we should abandon the idea altogehter?

Building a fence is not the only part of a working solution. Penalize those that hire ILLEGAL immigrants. Make it difficult for ILLEGAL immigrants to stay here. They will return to where they came from.

America cannot stand to have its policy making dictated by those that cannot legally vote, let alone those who are here ILLEGALLY. The politicians must grow a backbone on this one. They are acting without any foresight when supporting amnesty.

[tropical_fishy]

Y'all seem to think that I'm advocating immigrating here illegally. I'm definitely not. I just think building a wall is an idiotic idea. It'll waste time and resources that are best applied elswhere.

[geekwarrior]

Y'all seem to think that I'm advocating immigrating here illegally. I'm definitely not. I just think building a wall is an idiotic idea. It'll waste time and resources that are best applied elswhere.


I'm glad we agree on that :clap:

but really, how else CAN we secure our borders? its not just about illegal immigrants, its about security too. in fact I might support some sort of guest worker program IF we somehow close off the border first.

I apologize if I seemed hostile, its just living in Southern CA, I've had about enough.

[bleachit]

mine field?

[tropical_fishy]

I'm glad we agree on that :clap:

but really, how else CAN we secure our borders? its not just about illegal immigrants, its about security too. in fact I might support some sort of guest worker program IF we somehow close off the border first.

I apologize if I seemed hostile, its just living in Southern CA, I've had about enough.

I live in San Diego for part of the year, and for the other part, I live in "little Puerto Rico" (Hartford, CT).

Building a wall is a very male response to this problem. Regardless, I don't think people deserve to be shot and killed for trying to immigrate illegally. That's overkill, for lack of a better term, and excuse the pun, it's late-ish. A good amount of illegal immigrants, believe it or not, don't cross the border illegally. They get temporary permission to be ehre and never leave. That's another problem. Another large portion cross the border at designated "border crossings," in the trunks of cars, etc. A wall solves such a small problem when compared to all the other ways people can get in.

[nippinout]

You realize you just linked me to an EXTREMELY conservative, EXTREMELY biased news source, correct? May as well have said, "go check out FOX!"

Yes, in fact, I do get the news. I also read books, magazines, and the newspaper. I do not rely on one, biased source for all my information.

All news has a bias, it's impossible to be completely neutral. But what is wrong with Fox News? The fact that it isn't left-leaning? So if isn't left-leaning, the source must be seriously conservative, biased, and wrong?

Here's a story at Fox News about Adnan G. El Shukrijumah. He's al Qaeda and is a trained pilot suspected of being a terrorist cell leader. The US Department of State has a $5,000,000.00 price on his head. Here's a link (http://www.fbi.gov/terrorinfo/elshukrijumah.htm) to the FBI's website about him. He's been spotted in Honduras and Panama. I'm pretty sure he isn't on a South American vacation. Honduran Security Minister Oscar Alvarez believes al Qaeda is active in Honduras and are trying to recruit Hondurans.

But most of that information is from Fox News. Because it isn't left-leaning CNN, it must be conservative and raTHer flawed.

Does anyone else think a strict enforcement of current law and the construction of a fence is a stupid idea?

If al Qaeda is having a problem coming into America by plane, wouldn't they want to use the porous border? There are evil men out there that are dedicating their lives to kill us. I would rather have a wall to make it more difficult to kill us.

[geekwarrior]

I live in San Diego for part of the year, and for the other part, I live in "little Puerto Rico" (Hartford, CT).

Building a wall is a very male response to this problem. Regardless, I don't think people deserve to be shot and killed for trying to immigrate illegally. That's overkill, for lack of a better term, and excuse the pun, it's late-ish. A good amount of illegal immigrants, believe it or not, don't cross the border illegally. They get temporary permission to be ehre and never leave. That's another problem. Another large portion cross the border at designated "border crossings," in the trunks of cars, etc. A wall solves such a small problem when compared to all the other ways people can get in.

male response :rofl: I guess guys can be territorial

Actually, the post above yours has a good point...you are right in that it won't stop everyone.
And as you said, the WHOLE immigration system is a mess. There probably is no single solution, but at least its in the public eye and there is debate about it. Its just that the loudest voice normally gets its way, and right now that voice is the illegal side. Most Americans don't care or don't know, and I think the majorities voice isnt being heard. And that means the death of CA as we know it. :(

he must have edited his post, I wasnt suggesting a minefield...

[tropical_fishy]

All news has a bias, it's impossible to be completely neutral. But what is wrong with Fox News? The fact that it isn't left-leaning? So if isn't left-leaning, the source must be seriously conservative, biased, and wrong?

Here's a story at Fox News about Adnan G. El Shukrijumah. He's al Qaeda and is a trained pilot suspected of being a terrorist cell leader. The US Department of State has a $5,000,000.00 price on his head. Here's a link (http://www.fbi.gov/terrorinfo/elshukrijumah.htm) to the FBI's website about him. He's been spotted in Honduras and Panama. I'm pretty sure he isn't on a South American vacation. Honduran Security Minister Oscar Alvarez believes al Qaeda is active in Honduras and are trying to recruit Hondurans.

But most of that information is from Fox News. Because it isn't left-leaning CNN, it must be conservative and raTHer flawed.

Does anyone else think a strict enforcement of current law and the construction of a fence is a stupid idea?

If al Qaeda is having a problem coming into America by plane, wouldn't they want to use the porous border? There are evil men out there that are dedicating their lives to kill us. I would rather have a wall to make it more difficult to kill us.

Actually, to know that something's legit, I'd like to see links from both sides, liberal and conservative. But that's just how I am. And I don't consider CNN left-leaning. But this isn't an argument about the politics of the media. It's about tomorrow, and the "day without immigrants," or whatnot.

And yes, building a wall is very much like peeing on rocks and trees to designate your territory. And the first guy who comes after me with a "female dog" joke will not be happy :).

[grEnAlEins]

but really, how else CAN we secure our borders? its not just about illegal immigrants, its about security too.
Very true, it is a security issue. We could have the national guardsmen of AZ, NM, TX, and CA stand at the border. I do agree with the idea of sealed, or nearly sealed borders. I am actually thinking about getting in with Border/Customs and going down there for a bit. I am currently looking elsewhere too, but if those fall through The Border Patrol is actively recruiting... In fact they were just at my school. I had a chat with two agents about exactly what ICE offers as far as benifits and money and responsibilities. They answered my questions and gave me a bunch of recruitment stuff and contact info for the recruitment agent for my region. I doubt that I will do it, but it is an option. I do think we should seal that border down ASAP. I believe in stopping illegal immigration, but I think that in most instances, kicking people out is wrong. As for illegals that commit major crimes (e.g. murder, major drug offenses, etc) they should be given an option of whether to stay here. We fly them over the gulf, drop them in the middle, and see which way they swim. But for the majority of illegals, Bush's "probation" plan works just fine.

[nippinout]

I live in San Diego for part of the year, and for the other part, I live in "little Puerto Rico" (Hartford, CT).

Building a wall is a very male response to this problem. Regardless, I don't think people deserve to be shot and killed for trying to immigrate illegally. That's overkill, for lack of a better term, and excuse the pun, it's late-ish. A good amount of illegal immigrants, believe it or not, don't cross the border illegally. They get temporary permission to be ehre and never leave. That's another problem. Another large portion cross the border at designated "border crossings," in the trunks of cars, etc. A wall solves such a small problem when compared to all the other ways people can get in.

There were people here in Minnesota that opposed printing on state drivers licenses, the date at which a person's stay in America ended. Idiots.

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/6382/220slide25he.jpg

http://img290.imageshack.us/img290/2982/220slide30vp.jpg

http://img.photoamp.com/i/mqtwRjpO.jpg

[tropical_fishy]

As for illegals that commit major crimes (e.g. murder, major drug offenses, etc) they should be given an option of whether to stay here. We fly them over the gulf, drop them in the middle, and see which way they swim. But for the majority of illegals, Bush's "probation" plan works just fine.

Ironically, prisons in high-immigrant-populated states are the most strapped for cash of any institution besides hospitals. Oh god, I need to go to bed, my ability to write a coherent sentence is fading quickly.

[nippinout]

And yes, building a wall is very much like peeing on rocks and trees to designate your territory. And the first guy who comes after me with a "female dog" joke will not be happy :).

How is building a wall a 'male response'?

[grEnAlEins]

Ironically, prisons in high-immigrant-populated states are the most strapped for cash of any institution besides hospitals. Oh god, I need to go to bed, my ability to write a coherent sentence is fading quickly.
I understand that, in fact, that is the info covered on my 12:00 final tomarrow--today technically. But the illegals who commit major crimes are by no means the majority of illegals. I am sure that most of the problem is that these jails/prisons cover highly impovershed areas as well. The combination is crippling.

Edit: I am off to bed :cool: I mean it this time... :D

[billybob_81067]

Ironically, prisons in high-immigrant-populated states are the most strapped for cash of any institution besides hospitals. Oh god, I need to go to bed, my ability to write a coherent sentence is fading quickly.


Hmmm... how about we DO build that fence between Mexico and the U.S. and take all the prision guards currently in the U.S. right now to man it, and not only keep the mexicans out but send all of our prisioners over the boarder to their crappy country. See how they like it...

:p

[kosmo]

One thing that people dont know about legal immigration is that its darn near impossible to get here legally. There are 50,000 visas given out a year (not including those given out for extraordinary circumstances), and thats by "lottery". What that actually means is you pay some corrupt embassy official about $5,000 dollars and they sneak your name on the list of 50,000. That link to the citizenship application thing from google is one of the biggest scams there is. They take thousands of dollars from people, promising to get them their citizenship. Then, if theyre lucky, the company gets their name entered in the lottery for a visa. But what happens more often than not, is they take all the money the person has saved up, and leaves them high and dry. What can they do, theyre not in America and they definitely dont have the money to seek legal action. Im currently working on helping a friend here in Afghanistan get a visa to the states, and it is ridiculously hard. This guy is an interpreter who has worked for the army since the war started in Afghanistan. He speaks 5 different languages fluently, and has a technology degree from an Indian college, which is obviously not worthless considering the massive amount of IT growth in India. He has been hit by an IED 4 different times, shot twice, and his brother was beheaded on the job. He's trying to make money to pay for medical care for his parents that he takes care of. Now tell me, what has average Joe American who hasnt done anything to earn his citizenship other than being born here, got as leverage to tell this guy hes not good enough to come to America?

[geekwarrior]

One thing that people dont know about legal immigration is that its darn near impossible to get here legally. There are 50,000 visas given out a year (not including those given out for extraordinary circumstances), and thats by "lottery". What that actually means is you pay some corrupt embassy official about $5,000 dollars and they sneak your name on the list of 50,000. That link to the citizenship application thing from google is one of the biggest scams there is. They take thousands of dollars from people, promising to get them their citizenship. Then, if theyre lucky, the company gets their name entered in the lottery for a visa. But what happens more often than not, is they take all the money the person has saved up, and leaves them high and dry. What can they do, theyre not in America and they definitely dont have the money to seek legal action. Im currently working on helping a friend here in Afghanistan get a visa to the states, and it is ridiculously hard. This guy is an interpreter who has worked for the army since the war started in Afghanistan. He speaks 5 different languages fluently, and has a technology degree from an Indian college, which is obviously not worthless considering the massive amount of IT growth in India. He has been hit by an IED 4 different times, shot twice, and his brother was beheaded on the job. He's trying to make money to pay for medical care for his parents that he takes care of. Now tell me, what has average Joe American who hasnt done anything to earn his citizenship other than being born here, got as leverage to tell this guy hes not good enough to come to America?

your right, the immigration process is screwed up, but why do all the illegal immigrants coming here from Mexico get to cut in line in front of the guy your trying to help? I'm for increasing the amount of immigrants allowed into the country. We just cant absorb so many in one general area, the majority of which are unskilled.

[BigEvil]

This whole "Protest", Boycott" or whatever the hell they are calling it is a total sham. In my Distribution Center today, every single of my "legals" stayed home, yet the 30 or so temps form the agency showed up. Lazy legals. :D

[Zygote]

Illegal immigration is proof that the free trade system doesn't work. When foreign countries are open to investment and speculation by multinational corporations, local businesses are forced to compete with McDonalds and Walmart. The businesses are forced to close and the workers have limited options: earn a slave wage in a foreign-owned latin american sweatshop, collect unemployment, or go where the work is and send whatever you can back to your family.

Economies and populations will stabilize when people are able to meet the basic necessities where they live. Its unrealistic to make it impossible to make a living in their country and then kick them out when they try to make a living in ours.

[geekwarrior]

Illegal immigration is proof that the free trade system doesn't work. When foreign countries are open to investment and speculation by multinational corporations, local businesses are forced to compete with McDonalds and Walmart. The businesses are forced to close and the workers have limited options: earn a slave wage in a foreign-owned latin american sweatshop, collect unemployment, or go where the work is and send whatever you can back to your family.

Economies and populations will stabilize when people are able to meet the basic necessities where they live. Its unrealistic to make it impossible to make a living in their country and then kick them out when they try to make a living in ours.


hmm..so where does the fact that the Mexican government is corrupt and ruining there own economy play into your train of though?

Whats unrealistic is inviting every poor person into the US and believing that our country can support them all. sounds harsh, but thats life.

[grEnAlEins]

hmm..so where does the fact that the Mexican government is corrupt and ruining there own economy play into your train of though?

Whats unrealistic is inviting every poor person into the US and believing that our country can support them all. sounds harsh, but thats life.
Thats true, the Mexican police force are crazily corrupt, I bet it is widespread throughout the government.

Also true, but this is widespread among all races here, so it is not really central to immigration. I have said for a long time that our welfare system and other socialist institutions need to go. In fact, these programs were supposed to be discontinued at the end of the depression, and forced SS was supposed absolved of the American populus at the same time as other programs were discontinued (In fact, it was supposed to be on voluntary basis in the beginning). It is unfortunate that the government has lost its testicles, and with them, the ability to tell people to FO...

[tropical_fishy]

It's a good thing you guys didn't have a hand in writing the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Health care is something every person is entitled to. Making health care impossibly expensive is immoral on the part of doctors and insurance companies. There's a political theorist/sociologist, whose name I cannot remember for the life of me at the moment, who looked at why certain people are politically active. I don't remember exactly why he came to this conclusion, but he came to the conclusion that there is a hierarchy of needs that have to be met, and if they aren't met, something like voting falls far below the threshhold of something a person thinks about. My professor explained it as: physical security (food, water, shelter), protection from crime, good health, education... etc.

The Mexican government IS impossibly corrupt, but that's not the only problem it has. Government on a local scale is more and more frequently controlled by immigrants who make it in the US. They form committees about what to do in their hometown in whatever city they're in. Transnationalism is bad for the government at home because it leaves the poorest of the poor in areas of concentrated poverty which are not (debatably) good for them.

I don't think anyone can blame immigrants for wanting to come to America. Excessive poverty there makes crossing the border, even illegally, look VERY good.

I don't really remember where I was going with this, and I want some soup.

[kosmo]

why do all the illegal immigrants coming here from Mexico get to cut in line in front of the guy your trying to help?

For the exact same reason everyone born in America gets their citizenship without earning it. There are a lot more douchebags in the country because of that than from Mexicans coming in.

[grEnAlEins]

Health care is something every person is entitled to. Making health care impossibly expensive is immoral on the part of doctors and insurance companies.
...
I don't think anyone can blame immigrants for wanting to come to America. Excessive poverty there makes crossing the border, even illegally, look VERY good.
...
I don't really remember where I was going with this, and I want some soup.

I am sure that the FDA charging drug companies millions of dollars for mandatory testing and approval has nothing to do with high costs. :rolleyes: When you buy expensive drugs, you are paying for R&D, Testing, and FDA approval of new drugs. The drug companies are not about to lose money/eat high costs from the FDA. If you do not like high cost drugs A) don't buy them, or B) call your government representation and tell them you would like to see FDA policy reformed. It is easy, you only need to hit seven little buttons (well eleven if you live in the 847 area code). If the FDA is pput back under control, then drug prices will drop, as there is a smaller cost of production. It is like magic :D

I don't. In fact, I have vehemently defended their being here.

I like soup :cool:


For the exact same reason everyone born in America gets their citizenship without earning it. There are a lot more douchebags in the country because of that than from Mexicans coming in.
:rofl: . Just curious (not hostile towards you in any way), but what do you propose the system be changed to? I guess I am asking, how would one earn citizenship if it were up to you? Would it require an education/skill/military service/etc? This is interesting.

[FactsOfLife]

Health care is something every person is entitled to.


omfg...

[evildead420]

anybody see, " A day without a Mexican" ? this would kinda what it would be like without my lil wetback friend :ninja:

[kosmo]

I propose a citizenship/intelligence/make sure youre not ridiculously ugly test be given to everyone in the country, and then deport everyone who doesnt score high enough. Every person who is deported then opens up a spot for a prospective immigrant who scored high enough. Really though, nobody here is educated enough on the issue to be qualified to decide the fate of thousands of people, and that includes me so I wont bother trying.

[Altimas]

It's a good thing you guys didn't have a hand in writing the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.


If it wasnt for Health Insurance you really couldnt afford healthcare.

[grEnAlEins]

I propose a citizenship/intelligence/make sure youre not ridiculously ugly test be given to everyone in the country, and then deport everyone who doesnt score high enough. Every person who is deported then opens up a spot for a prospective immigrant who scored high enough. Really though, nobody here is educated enough on the issue to be qualified to decide the fate of thousands of people, and that includes me so I wont bother trying.
:rofl: I would fail, I am one ugly dude :cry: ;)

[robnix]

Can I just say building a wall is the grown-up equivilent of the child playing hide-and-go-seek, covering his eyes, and thinking, "I can't see them, so they can't see me!"?

Yeah. Pointless. You'll still have Coyotes taking people across the border for $$, you'll still have people dying in the desert, and you'll be strapped for cash because you just built a huge-^%& wall for no reason other than symbolic separation, a la Berlin.

I urge you one day to go visit the Checkpoint Charlie museum and see just how 'symbolic' that wall around a city, and another that split a country in half really was.

[nippinout]

Health care is something every person is entitled to. Making health care impossibly expensive is immoral on the part of doctors and insurance companies.

It's a sad fact of life. It's called insurance for a reason. In the event of a very expensive treatment, you pay a small portion. You want insurance? Get a job. Being born does not entitle you to a life of free healthcare. It isn't the government's job to be your mother.

Universal healthcare is a joke. Look at Tennessee. Failure. In Canda, you have to be on a waiting list to see a doctor!

What's the point for a company to develop a drug that takes a decade and hundreds of millions of dollars if they aren't able to charge enough to make a profit?

What else should every person be entitled to? You want something? Work for it. Earn it. The government does not exist to give away handouts.

GET A JOB!

[BigEvil]

we had about 20 people out today in my warehouse, and truthfully, I was pleased to see everyone pitch in to pick up the slack. There definately are some hard feelings. I hope that nothing more comes of it, and I hope they all enjoyed there vacacione.

After speaking to my big boss today, I came up with this plan; I would bring a classroom size American flag in tomorrow, and we would start the day with the pledge of allegience. I said that anyone who didnt know it, or couldnt recite it in English didnt get a sick day for today.

Im expecting the ACLU in there sometime before first break. :-)

[Recon by Fire]

you are so right...


http://www.epa.gov/Arkansas/6xa/border_big.jpg


+


http://tri.army.mil/LC/CS/csa/phalanx.jpg



= Zone of Death!!!



Can someone say reality TV? pays for itself.


/joke
//Ha Ha


:D

[bleachit]

thank you, finally it gets the recognition it deserves!

[geekwarrior]

I propose a citizenship/intelligence/make sure youre not ridiculously ugly test be given to everyone in the country, and then deport everyone who doesnt score high enough. Every person who is deported then opens up a spot for a prospective immigrant who scored high enough. Really though, nobody here is educated enough on the issue to be qualified to decide the fate of thousands of people, and that includes me so I wont bother trying.


It doesnt take a highly educated person to see that illegal immigration is destroying CA and Arizona. Its destroying the health care system, public schools, and the whole infrastructure. An educated person may be needed to study at what rate our counrty can absorb LEGAL immigrants
This country is going more and more to socialism.

[grEnAlEins]

This country is going more and more to socialism.
That is the main problem. We should heve a system where you pay for what you get/use. Great news, I solved the problem! :D If we had no socialist institutions, there would be no problem, the illegals or anyone could not strain your institutions.

[1stdeadeye]

Through them out! Why was the INS not offering them all free bus rides home?

[FactsOfLife]

If it wasnt for Health Insurance you really couldnt afford healthcare.

Hate to break it to you, but there are those of us who pay for our health care without the government or some overbearing HMO's "help".

[evildead420]

what about this guy, he has rights too.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v134/evildead420/BeanerDan.jpg

sorry dan. lol.

[billybob_81067]

What's the point for a company to develop a drug that takes a decade and hundreds of millions of dollars if they aren't able to charge enough to make a profit?

I think they shouldn't spend millions of dollars developing drugs... What this country needs is a plague/epidemic, or a revolution to spill some blood and clean up all the crap.



we had about 20 people out today in my warehouse, and truthfully, I was pleased to see everyone pitch in to pick up the slack.

So basically what you're saying is that those extra 20 people aren't really needed, everyone else just needs to put out 100%.

Just think if everyone in the U.S. put out 100% every day... :eek:

[maxama10]

I think they shouldn't spend millions of dollars developing drugs... What this country needs is a plague/epidemic, or a revolution to spill some blood and clean up all the crap.

heh, might get some crap for this one, but.... What youre saying sounds sort of like hurricane Katrina to wipe out the filth in New Orleans (sadly taking along with it many great things)
/disaster plague epidemic close enough
//this whole thing is a ****story
/// :rolleyes:

[Rudz]

today at work everyone is my dept showed up...everyone..all races..hispanic background or not..in another dept where temp " mexican nationalists" work for minumum wage..they called in sick by hordes..we looked at it like this..nobody in my dept is illegal..and we make alot more..but some of us have hispanic backgrounds, as do i..the boycott affect us?? no the temps were all fired...we all showed up despite talk of this boycott..i am all for more deportation..great walls, barbed wire.guards towers..why?? illegals cost us money..they have all there kids..that are born in our country, so are now" americans" and get all the benifits...bs...millions on welfare...in cali they can get a dl?? wtf...most of them dont have one anyways..they hit you and your screwed...want to deport them..home depot..go get em...but no point deporting if they walk back over...im a damn proud american..hispanic background yes..but my family has legally been here for generations.alot of us dont even speak spanish..lol, hell go ahead make english the national language..id love it..walk into a store and you have to know spanish to get what you want?? you want to stay in our country?? learn english..become legal, pay taxes..hell if there was a mas education istead of deportation it would help..teah em english, educate em..and make em pay taxes..

[SCpoloRicker]

today at work everyone is my dept showed up...everyone..all races..hispanic background or not..in another dept where temp " mexican nationalists" work for minumum wage..they called in sick by hordes..we looked at it like this..nobody in my dept is illegal..and we make alot more..but some of us have hispanic backgrounds, as do i..the boycott affect us?? no the temps were all fired...we all showed up despite talk of this boycott..i am all for more deportation..great walls, barbed wire.guards towers..why?? illegals cost us money..they have all there kids..that are born in our country, so are now" americans" and get all the benifits...bs...millions on welfare...in cali they can get a dl?? wtf...most of them dont have one anyways..they hit you and your screwed...want to deport them..home depot..go get em...but no point deporting if they walk back over...im a damn proud american..hispanic background yes..but my family has legally been here for generations.alot of us dont even speak spanish..lol, hell go ahead make english the national language..id love it..walk into a store and you have to know spanish to get what you want?? you want to stay in our country?? learn english..become legal, pay taxes..hell if there was a mas education istead of deportation it would help..teah em english, educate em..and make em pay taxes..

In all seriousness: speak freaking english.

The whole "I'm rambling with periods in-between" is the cause of most of peoples grief.

[Lohman446]

..they have all there kids..that are born in our country, so are now" americans" and get all the benifits...bs..

Just for the sake of discussion what qualifies one as a citizen if born in this country is not one of the qualifiers?

[Lohman446]

So basically what you're saying is that those extra 20 people aren't really needed, everyone else just needs to put out 100%.

Just think if everyone in the U.S. put out 100% every day... :eek:

Mass unemployment? A cycle of layoffs and hirings that became almost impossible to deal with? Rapid inflation from a rapidly changing supply side? Small groups (10-20%%) of the work force being able to cripple the workplace through work slow downs or "boycots"?

There are pretty justifiable arguments to have the ability for more productivity than is normally run.

[tropical_fishy]

In all seriousness: speak freaking english.

The whole "I'm rambling with periods in-between" is the cause of most of peoples grief.


I'm starting the Foundation Against the Misuse of Ellipses, if you'd like to join.

Maxama, you may get "crap" for that one because it's an ignorant and somewhat racist sentiment.

You all seem to think the poor in this country, immigrants or no, are the enemy. They aren't. There are a good many poor people working minimum wage jobs, trying to keep their kids in schools, NOT on welfare or TRYING to get off. For a lot of people, food stamps, welfare and charity are not good things, they are EMBARASSING things. It makes me kind of sick to see a bunch of boys whose hobby is an expensive one-- people who have MONEY to play paintball, to have cars to drive, discussing poverty like it's some kind of disease. You are not the majority. You are a privileged minority. And you are acting like spoiled children. One of the reasons drugs are so prevelent in poor neighborhoods, like the ones in New Orleans that got hit during Hurricane Katrina is because law enforcement is LOOKING for them.


What happens if we turn our economy into a purely assembly-line style, utilitarian economy? Pretty much no employment. Ever read Brave New World? That's what happens when a society takes "assembly line" to the extreme.

[PyRo]

My take on illigle immigration.

Illigle immigrants are unarguably a drain on society.

While it's a wonderfull thought to think we can open our arms to all the worlds poor it simply is not true. At one point a hundred years ago this may have been the case. Times have changed and this country now has the ability to absorb only a certain number of immigrants each year.

Illigle aliens most often do not pay taxes yet receive the same or better healthcare that tax payers would They do not pay taxes yet receive the same legal protection that tax payers would. They do not pay taxes yet can send their children to the same schools tax payers would. They do not pay taxe yet receive the same police protection that taxpayers would. Their is no argueing right or wrong when an American citizen can get an "unskilled" job and make four hundred dollars a week after taxes while an illigle alien will make five hundred because they do not pay taxes. Ontop of this when the citizen falls and breaks his arm he is expected to pay all or at least a large part of the medical bill. When the illigle alien falls and breaks his arm the medical expenses fall on the taxpayer.

People complain of low wages. Why are the wages low? Supply and demand, their are more people who want the job then can be hired. Theirfore emplyers do not have to pay well. If the number of people who wanted the jobs fell wages would have to rise to atract employees. Ontop of this due to tax reasons often a law abiding American citizen is going to make less then someone who came to this country illigelly.

If the estimated twelve million undocumented workers were to suddenly leave the country along with whatever children they had while here several things would happen.
*Schools would become less crowded and better financed. Public schools are financed by taxes. When you have people who do not pay taxes sending their children to school you are reducing the amount of money spend on each child. After the second World War returning vetrans started families which created a huge generation of young people. Their were little if any problems with over crowding in schools then because all the vetrans were legal citizens taking jobs where they paid taxes which in turn paid for the schools their children went to.
*Unskilled jobs such as laboring, landscapeing, dishwashing, and waiting would not be left vacent with people unwilling to do them as is often said. That the Hispanics do the jobs no one else wants to do can be dismissed as pure myth. Those jobs would most likely be filled with young people who need to start somewhere or work through their college years. If their truly was a problem people on welfare or unemployment could be turned to these jobs as at least temporary employment.
*Wages for unskilled jobs would increase. Tax paying legal citizens may very well refuse to do those jobs for the amount of money illigles are making since they will be making less then their alien counterparts. In turn wages would have to be increased.
*Tax revenues would increase. As these jobs were filled with tax payers tax revenues would increase. This would lessen the burden however little it may help on those currently paying taxes.
*Healthcare and other social programs would have money freed up to do other things.


Between immigration, the situation in the Middle East, Oil Prices, Noth Korea, outsourceing, and Chinas rapid industrialization this county may be in trouble.

[geekwarrior]

Between immigration, the situation in the Middle East, Oil Prices, Noth Korea, outsourceing, and Chinas rapid industrialization this county may be in trouble.


Agreed...enjoy US as a superpower now, because at this rate, it wont last much longer.

Other countries think were bad as a superpower...wait until China is.

[tropical_fishy]

My take on illigle immigration.

Illigle immigrants are unarguably a drain on society.

While it's a wonderfull thought to think we can open our arms to all the worlds poor it simply is not true. At one point a hundred years ago this may have been the case. Times have changed and this country now has the ability to absorb only a certain number of immigrants each year.

This is true. I think most of us agree that illegal (yes, ILLEGAL, not illigle) immigration is not-so-good. I think we should make it a lot easier for people to get work permits to work in the US-- not live, work. For example, TJ is right over the border from San Ysidro in CA. The border provides for many jobs, and I think it would be beneficial to all involved to make the border slightly more permeable to WORKERS. I know that a lot of people, when crops are in season, drive from Mexico to the strawberry fields or whatnot and then back down, daily. They're following their job-- sometimes strawberries are in season in Mexico, sometimes in SoCal. They should be allowed to follow that industry with proper documentation.


Illigle aliens most often do not pay taxes yet receive the same or better healthcare that tax payers would They do not pay taxes yet receive the same legal protection that tax payers would. They do not pay taxes yet can send their children to the same schools tax payers would. They do not pay taxe yet receive the same police protection that taxpayers would. Their is no argueing right or wrong when an American citizen can get an "unskilled" job and make four hundred dollars a week after taxes while an illigle alien will make five hundred because they do not pay taxes. Ontop of this when the citizen falls and breaks his arm he is expected to pay all or at least a large part of the medical bill. When the illigle alien falls and breaks his arm the medical expenses fall on the taxpayer.

Many illegal immigrants do pay taxes, in fact. Most companies won't doctor their books like that.

You don't seem to understand how the medical system works. If an American citizen cannot pay his/her hospital bill, it doesn't matter. If that person is in need of emergency care, like a broken arm, a hospital MUST, due to the Hippocratic Oath, take care of them.


People complain of low wages. Why are the wages low? Supply and demand, their are more people who want the job then can be hired. Theirfore emplyers do not have to pay well. If the number of people who wanted the jobs fell wages would have to rise to atract employees. Ontop of this due to tax reasons often a law abiding American citizen is going to make less then someone who came to this country illigelly.

Often. You keep using that word. I do not think you know what it means.

"Often" recent immigrants, illegal or no, are mistreated. "Often," Americans look upon recent Mexican immigrants, illegal or no, as trash. "Often," Mexicans are paid less for their work than white people, kinda like "often," women make what, 75, 80 cents to a man's dollar?


If the estimated twelve million undocumented workers were to suddenly leave the country along with whatever children they had while here several things would happen.
*Schools would become less crowded and better financed. Public schools are financed by taxes. When you have people who do not pay taxes sending their children to school you are reducing the amount of money spend on each child. After the second World War returning vetrans started families which created a huge generation of young people. Their were little if any problems with over crowding in schools then because all the vetrans were legal citizens taking jobs where they paid taxes which in turn paid for the schools their children went to.

I don't agree. Illegal immigrants don't send their children to schools for the most part. Education is not important when you're scraping by to make ends meet. And according to my mother, who was a kid during the baby boom, your theory about overcrowding in schools is BS. She lived in the boonies in Western Pennsylvania and still went to an overcrowded school.


*Unskilled jobs such as laboring, landscapeing, dishwashing, and waiting would not be left vacent with people unwilling to do them as is often said. That the Hispanics do the jobs no one else wants to do can be dismissed as pure myth. Those jobs would most likely be filled with young people who need to start somewhere or work through their college years. If their truly was a problem people on welfare or unemployment could be turned to these jobs as at least temporary employment.

You obviously don't live in Southern California. Yes, there are some (white) kids who would take up these jobs. But the vast majority are spoiled brats, who wouldn't touch landscaping or harvesting with a ten foot pole.


*Wages for unskilled jobs would increase. Tax paying legal citizens may very well refuse to do those jobs for the amount of money illigles are making since they will be making less then their alien counterparts. In turn wages would have to be increased.

Blatantly false. Most reputable businesses pay minimum wage.


*Tax revenues would increase. As these jobs were filled with tax payers tax revenues would increase. This would lessen the burden however little it may help on those currently paying taxes.
*Healthcare and other social programs would have money freed up to do other things.


Between immigration, the situation in the Middle East, Oil Prices, Noth Korea, outsourceing, and Chinas rapid industrialization this county may be in trouble.


Health care is not a "social program." Perhaps you meant welfare, or medicare. But regardless. I tried my very best not to get very frustrated at your spelling and grammar, which is atrocious. Perhaps if you are so worried about the public school system, you should begin by studying basic English.

[geekwarrior]

This is true. I think most of us agree that illegal (yes, ILLEGAL, not illigle) immigration is not-so-good. I think we should make it a lot easier for people to get work permits to work in the US-- not live, work. For example, TJ is right over the border from San Ysidro in CA. The border provides for many jobs, and I think it would be beneficial to all involved to make the border slightly more permeable to WORKERS. I know that a lot of people, when crops are in season, drive from Mexico to the strawberry fields or whatnot and then back down, daily. They're following their job-- sometimes strawberries are in season in Mexico, sometimes in SoCal. They should be allowed to follow that industry with proper documentation.



Many illegal immigrants do pay taxes, in fact. Most companies won't doctor their books like that.

You don't seem to understand how the medical system works. If an American citizen cannot pay his/her hospital bill, it doesn't matter. If that person is in need of emergency care, like a broken arm, a hospital MUST, due to the Hippocratic Oath, take care of them.



Often. You keep using that word. I do not think you know what it means.

"Often" recent immigrants, illegal or no, are mistreated. "Often," Americans look upon recent Mexican immigrants, illegal or no, as trash. "Often," Mexicans are paid less for their work than white people, kinda like "often," women make what, 75, 80 cents to a man's dollar?



I don't agree. Illegal immigrants don't send their children to schools for the most part. Education is not important when you're scraping by to make ends meet. And according to my mother, who was a kid during the baby boom, your theory about overcrowding in schools is BS. She lived in the boonies in Western Pennsylvania and still went to an overcrowded school.



You obviously don't live in Southern California. Yes, there are some (white) kids who would take up these jobs. But the vast majority are spoiled brats, who wouldn't touch landscaping or harvesting with a ten foot pole.



Blatantly false. Most reputable businesses pay minimum wage.




Health care is not a "social program." Perhaps you meant welfare, or medicare. But regardless. I tried my very best not to get very frustrated at your spelling and grammar, which is atrocious. Perhaps if you are so worried about the public school system, you should begin by studying basic English.


I give up.....go do some research on our hospitals, schools, and economy.

[tropical_fishy]

I give up.....go do some research on our hospitals, schools, and economy.

Fortunately for you, that's waht I AM studying this semester at school. Hooray.

[Lohman446]

I give up.....go do some research on our hospitals, schools, and economy.


What point of hers are you debating so I can tell you you are wrong? Aside from the drain on our healthcare system presented by its abuse of people who shouldn't even be there and perhaps the amount of kids in school in some places, why don't you go ahead and show the flaws in the argument rather than your neat little sound bite. Lets talk about the economy - show me this fundamental flaw that illegal immigrants present? I would think its far more threatened by a welfare system that does not encourage people to take a job they may not like or doesn't pay "enough" for them.

[PyRo]

Many illegal immigrants do pay taxes, in fact. Most companies won't doctor their books like that.

I don't know where you live but around here almost every one of them is off the books. I'm speaking from experience working with them and with people who hire them. I'm not speaking about what I think and what I've heard.



You don't seem to understand how the medical system works. If an American citizen cannot pay his/her hospital bill, it doesn't matter. If that person is in need of emergency care, like a broken arm, a hospital MUST, due to the Hippocratic Oath, take care of them.

Yes but a citizen and non-citizen can both be making the same wage. The one not paying taxes can walk into the hospital and with no income showing never receive a bill. Now the person who is reporting their income may very well be liable for the bill or part or it because they show income while the other person does not. This is fact, a local paving company decided to put all their workers on the books. Many of them left because they did not want to loose the heath care. That's the reason they gave.



Often. You keep using that word. I do not think you know what it means.

"Often" recent immigrants, illegal or no, are mistreated. "Often," Americans look upon recent Mexican immigrants, illegal or no, as trash. "Often," Mexicans are paid less for their work than white people, kinda like "often," women make what, 75, 80 cents to a man's dollar?

This is completely irrelevant to the argument about whether or not they should be here.




I don't agree. Illegal immigrants don't send their children to schools for the most part. Education is not important when you're scraping by to make ends meet. And according to my mother, who was a kid during the baby boom, your theory about overcrowding in schools is BS. She lived in the boonies in Western Pennsylvania and still went to an overcrowded school.

I don't agree with you. They do send their children to schools. You can watch them all get on the bus every morning. Come here and watch as the bus goes to 13th street, the Hill, and the Orchard (where they all live). If they aren’t going to school just where are they going?
She lived in the boonies in Western Pennsylvania where even with people paying taxes their wouldn't be any money to build another school. You're right though schools aren’t overcrowded. We'll just ignore that their isn't enough money for the children to have books to take home, bussing to high school, or for anyone within 2 miles of the middle or elementary schools, extra curricular activities being almost non-existent now because of budget problems. They aren’t getting less money then before but their sure is an influx of Hispanics packing the buildings. We won't call that overcrowding though.



You obviously don't live in Southern California. Yes, there are some (white) kids who would take up these jobs. But the vast majority are spoiled brats, who wouldn't touch landscaping or harvesting with a ten foot pole.

You're right about something I'm not from Southern California. I'm from NY which is chock full of people from Honduras, Venezuela, and El Salvador. If the jobs were available people would take them I have no doubt about that.




Blatantly false. Most reputable businesses pay minimum wage.

Yes they do. But if I make $6.50 an hour and pay taxes and someone else makes $6.50 and hour and doesn't who is taking home more at the end of the week?





Health care is not a "social program." Perhaps you meant welfare, or Medicare. But regardless. I tried my very best not to get very frustrated at your spelling and grammar, which is atrocious. Perhaps if you are so worried about the public school system, you should begin by studying basic English.
I challenge you to find where I said health care is a social program. I’m going to disregard your spelling comment as a childish attempt to discredit an argument that you otherwise could not.

[tropical_fishy]

What point of hers are you debating so I can tell you you are wrong? Aside from the drain on our healthcare system presented by its abuse of people who shouldn't even be there and perhaps the amount of kids in school in some places, why don't you go ahead and show the flaws in the argument rather than your neat little sound bite. Lets talk about the economy - show me this fundamental flaw that illegal immigrants present? I would think its far more threatened by a welfare system that does not encourage people to take a job they may not like or doesn't pay "enough" for them.


We should be best friends. No really.


...<--- ellipse.

I don't deny that illegal immigrants place a huge strain on the hospitals in the areas in which they are prevelent. However, hospitals in predominately poor neighborhoods have the same problems as hospitals in areas where there are high instances of illegal immigrants.

Edit: have to go to class, but Pyro:


Healthcare and other social programs would have money freed up to do other things.

[PyRo]

We should be best friends. No really.


...<--- ellipse.

I don't deny that illegal immigrants place a huge strain on the hospitals in the areas in which they are prevelent. However, hospitals in predominately poor neighborhoods have the same problems as hospitals in areas where there are high instances of illegal immigrants.
The difference is the poor people arn't doing anything illegal by straining hospitals as they are citizens. Every hospital bed with an illegal alien in it is that much less room and money for an American citizen.

[Lohman446]

Yes but a citizen and non-citizen can both be making the same wage. The one not paying taxes can walk into the hospital and with no income showing never receive a bill. Now the person who is reporting their income may very well be liable for the bill or part or it because they show income while the other person does not. This is fact, a local paving company decided to put all their workers on the books. Many of them left because they did not want to loose the heath care. That's the reason they gave.
.

Perhaps we should address companies not handling there legal obligation to collect payroll taxes, or those individuals underreporting income. It would seem to me this is a major issue and someones immigration status has very minimal effect on the end result of it. Its too easy to let an argument fall into other issues that have little to do with immigration status.

[BigEvil]

So basically what you're saying is that those extra 20 people aren't really needed, everyone else just needs to put out 100%.

Just think if everyone in the U.S. put out 100% every day... :eek:


No, now today I have to go run around and do all of my own work now that I did everyone elses.

[PyRo]

Perhaps we should address companies not handling there legal obligation to collect payroll taxes, or those individuals underreporting income. It would seem to me this is a major issue and someones immigration status has very minimal effect on the end result of it. Its too easy to let an argument fall into other issues that have little to do with immigration status.

You're correct; this should be and lately has been being cracked down on more. However if the government found out I hadn't been paying taxes the IRS is going to send me a big bill complete with all my back taxes and fines to boot. If I don't pay that I will end up in jail for a couple months then still have to pay the IRS. On the other hand when the IRS finds out an undocumented alien isn't paying taxes they can't do anything. It would be much more difficult and expensive to go after someone without a social security number, a driver’s license, or other information. If they try to collect the person can simply more to the house next door and find a new job. The IRS will never be able to catch up to them.

You want examples of this type of thing? I know someone who was involved in a vehicular accident with an unlicensed Hispanic driver who was here without papers. The police took down the guy’s information, towed his car (some really cheap thing) which he didn't have registered or insured he just bought it from someone, found plates who knows where and started driving it around. They wrote him a whole stack of tickets (running a red light, failure to signal, no license, no registration, no insurance) which probably would have landed him in jail or at least with a huge fine, and sent him on his way. When the guy went to try and collect for the damages on his vehicle (it was clearly the other guy at fault) he had simply disappeared off the face of the earth. When he went to the person’s house they simply said they never heard of the guy. He called the police who said they couldn't do anything about it either. In my opinion the guy should have been put in jail until the thing was seen through then deported or at least some action taken against him to make sure this didn't happen again

You’re right in that they should crack down on businesses for hireling these people too. I'm a big supporter of making the penalties for hireling these people and the likelihood of being caught severe enough that it is no longer worth hireling these people. That would solve a few of the problems but now we have a new one. You now have millions of people here illegally with more coming every day unable to find any work at all. The solution to that? Offer them all a free ride home and give them an application to apply for a visa or citizenship if they want to come back.

[Lohman446]

You're correct, this should be and latley has been being cracked down on more. However if the government found out I hadn't been paying taxes the IRS is going to send me a big bill complete with all my back taxes and fines to boot. If I don't pay that I will end up in jail for a couple months then still have to pay the IRS. On the other hand when the IRS finds out an undocumented alien isn't paying taxes they can't do anything. It would be much more difficult and expensive to go after someone without a social security number, a drivers license, or other information. If they try to collect the person can simply more to the house next door and find a new job. The IRS will never be able to catch up to them.

You want examples of this type of thing? I know someone who was involved in a vehicular accident with an unlicensed Hispanic driver who was here without papers. The police took down the guys information, towed his car (some really cheap thing) which he didn't have registered or insured he just bought it from someone, found plates who knows where and started driving it around. They wrote him a whole stack of tickets (running a red light, failure to signale, no license, no registration, no insurance) which probably would have landed him in jail or at least with a huge fine, and sent him on his way. When the guy went to try and collect for the damages on his vehicle (it was clearly the other guy at fault) he had simply disapeared off the face of the earth. When he went to the persons house they simply said they never heard of the guy. He called the police who said they couldn't do anything about it either. In my opinion the guy should have been put in jail until the thing was seen through then deported or at least some action taken against him to make sure this didn't happen again.

The issue again is not illegal immigrants - its fraudlent paperwork, lack of paperwork, etc. This should be punished on the spot for anyone, regardless of immigration status. Its like saying a murder committed by an illegal was committed because they were illegal.

I have a problem with illegal immigration, but lets call it what it is, not doomsday scenarios that are stretches.

[PyRo]

The issue again is not illegal immigrants - its fraudlent paperwork, lack of paperwork, etc. This should be punished on the spot for anyone, regardless of immigration status. Its like saying a murder committed by an illegal was committed because they were illegal.
If the issue is about fradulent or lack of paperwork then that is somthing every illegal is guilty of.

[geekwarrior]

What point of hers are you debating so I can tell you you are wrong? Aside from the drain on our healthcare system presented by its abuse of people who shouldn't even be there and perhaps the amount of kids in school in some places, why don't you go ahead and show the flaws in the argument rather than your neat little sound bite. Lets talk about the economy - show me this fundamental flaw that illegal immigrants present? I would think its far more threatened by a welfare system that does not encourage people to take a job they may not like or doesn't pay "enough" for them.


First off, I meant infrastructure(I know, quite different), not economy, although they do effect the economy.

Second, if you read the whole thread, that wasnt all I added, I was actually sick of adding.

Hmmm...economy. Show me a state (maybe this doesnt apply to your state of MI) that can take in millions of uneducated poor people who leach off the government, and can still sustain itself. CA gets virtually nothing back from the FEDs for the problems we have here.

Schools: this is 2 fold. First they take money from our schools by not paying taxes. They also overcrowd the schools so that it is difficult for anybody to learn. Many do not speak English so it holds the whole class back. I think the graduation rate in the LA area is around %60. So not only is CA accepting uneducated people at alarming rate, these same people are having kids who are not getting an education. Saying most illegals dont go to school here is absurd. You say overcrowded in some areas? Its ALL of southern CA and that is alot of area.

Did you know what the majority of people said about the day without an immigrant. Their commute got cut in half. The freeways were not designed to hold an extra million plus people. This amounts to alot of traffic. Sitting in traffic means lost time for many people.


Hospitals. 13 hospitals in the LA area have closed down in the last few years due to not being able to operate. The hospitals that stay open are overcrowded and also hurting for money. This drives up medical costs because the hospitals have to charge more to make up for loss of unpaying patients.

Many of the Mexicans come here to work. But how many gangs have formed from the ranks of illegal immigrants. It may be a small percent, but given the huge number of immigrants that have come here, a small percent equals a HUGE problem. This makes communities unsafe, and also requires more police officers that means more taxes.

CA use to be the only state that had a huge problem with illegal immigration. Nobody but people from CA saw it as a problem. Now Arizona is getting overrun more than CA, and other states are starting to see how damaging it is to the area. Do you think this cry of stop is stemming from some racial feelings? Maybe for a small few. But the majority of people calling for an end to this are doing so because it is ruining the way of life.

You start talking guest worker program, there is a tidal wave coming across the border. Maybe we do need a guest worker program, but you know what, we have to secure the border first. The reason illegal immigration thrives is because people are always looking to do things cheaper. What is a gues worker program going to do if someone else is going to still cross illegally and say they will do the job for cheaper? Secure the border, and go after the employers, than talk about a guest worker program.

[Lohman446]

If the issue is about fradulent or lack of paperwork then that is somthing every illegal is guilty of.

And so would any legal with the same - well fradulent. I'm all for deporting illegal immigrants as needed. But still, a lot of these scenarios about health care, schools, economy are doomsday scenarios that need addressed in ways that have little to do with immigration.

[Lohman446]

Economic issues are a fault of economic issues, not immigration. But lets discuss one thing at a time - schools.

"The school system is overwhelmed by illegals". Ok.. in MI schools are supported primarly through property tax. In order to attend a school one must be able to verify residence (though school of choice law now allows crossing of district borders thats irrelevant to the discussion). In order to verify residence one must live somewhere. That somewhere must pay property taxes or risk seizure by the government. If one is renting, then rent must be being paid to someone who then pays the taxes. If owned, taxes are paid. You get the point, have to live somewhere, have to show residence, residence pays property tax...

Show me how someones immigration status causes a problem in overwhelming the school system - these are failures of school administrations, state governments, etc. Illegal immigration is not the key contributing factor.

Yeh, Im only going to discuss one item at a time, tell me when you want to move to the next and which one.

[PyRo]

And so would any legal with the same - well fradulent. I'm all for deporting illegal immigrants as needed. But still, a lot of these scenarios about health care, schools, economy are doomsday scenarios that need addressed in ways that have little to do with immigration.
True, but the 100% of the illegal ones are guilty of being here without paper work, etc. I don't have actual statistics, since they're illegal you can't collect statistics on them but I'd say a majority of them cheat on there taxes. It is much easier to get away with it when you don't have to fear an audit or any reprisal from the IRS.

Those who are here legally are one step ahead of the illegals in that they have papers to be here. If these people get caught cheating on their taxes they can expect reprisal from the IRS or in some cases deportation that the illegals didn't have to worry about. It doesn't seem fair to me and I'm sure that I'm not alone that those people who took the time and effort to legally become ccitizens should have be faced with more problems then those who did not.

If illegal aliens faced deportation for being caught cheating taxes or other offenses without being let go first (so they could vanish) it would greatly discourage people from comming here illegally.

Also if we can only take so many immigrants in every year when calculating that number we have to take into account how many illegal immigrants are incomming. As a result people who take the time to apply legally are turned away because we have to account for the illegals comming in.

Then the problem moves to language.
In all fairness I've worked with Spanish people before and most of them are eager to learn English. Most of them learned a bit of English from me and I learned a bit of Spanish from them. It isn't a big problem but occasionally you get people who refuse to make an attempt and demand you speak to them in Spanish. These people all got fired pretty quickly because they couldn't understand you when you told them to go cut down a tree but when you said lunch time they understood it fine. I can't blame that on any race though because their are plently of lazy people here already who will use whatever excuse they can to do as little work as possible.

It does however cost money to write everying in English as well as Spanish, run ESL programs in schools, have bi-lingual employees, etc.

I don't think language is a huge problem. You do get the people who refuse to learn English though. They have a large enough following saying that Spanish people should retain their language to be annoying but it doesn't go much further then that. Most of them are smart enough to realize that if they want to get anywhere they should learn to speak English.

[Lohman446]

If illegal aliens faced deportation for being caught cheating taxes or other offenses without being let go first (so they could vanish) it would greatly discourage people from comming here illegally.
.

Agreed - fully. But here the problem is law enforcement of current immigration law. More laws will not fix a problem if current laws are not enforced.

[geekwarrior]

Economic issues are a fault of economic issues, not immigration. But lets discuss one thing at a time - schools.

"The school system is overwhelmed by illegals". Ok.. in MI schools are supported primarly through property tax. In order to attend a school one must be able to verify residence (though school of choice law now allows crossing of district borders thats irrelevant to the discussion). In order to verify residence one must live somewhere. That somewhere must pay property taxes or risk seizure by the government. If one is renting, then rent must be being paid to someone who then pays the taxes. If owned, taxes are paid. You get the point, have to live somewhere, have to show residence, residence pays property tax...

Show me how someones immigration status causes a problem in overwhelming the school system - these are failures of school administrations, state governments, etc. Illegal immigration is not the key contributing factor.

Yeh, Im only going to discuss one item at a time, tell me when you want to move to the next and which one.


you are right, its the governments problem/fault for not enforcing the laws, i wont disagree, but how does that not make it a problem of illegal immigration. That is what the whole discussion is about, enforcing immigration laws. Illegal immigration status does not cause overcrowding in and of itself, but allowing millions to come here illegally does casue overcrowding, hence overcrowding, hence get the government to do something about illegal immigration.

Either that or I'm missing your point..... :confused:

[bleachit]

Agreed - fully. But here the problem is law enforcement of current immigration law. More laws will not fix a problem if current laws are not enforced.


I say we make a law making it illegal not to enforce current laws...

so, if no one enforces this new law, how will they be held accountable if this new law isnt enforced?

/whoa.

[geekwarrior]

Agreed - fully. But here the problem is law enforcement of current immigration law. More laws will not fix a problem if current laws are not enforced.


Yes, no new laws are needed, just enforcement of ones on the books. Enforcement is the whole issue here, and for the last ten yrs or more, there has been none.

Last year ICE was doing raids in Temecula, and they were told to stop. You know how many employers got in trouble for employing illegals...you could count the number on one hand. There is almost zero interior enforcement, if you make it across without getting caught, your in. That is what the agruement is about. That is why I am puzzled to the huge uproar about the new bill/law........we dont enforce anything anyways, so why are they worried.

[Lohman446]

you are right, its the governments problem/fault for not enforcing the laws, i wont disagree, but how does that not make it a problem of illegal immigration. That is what the whole discussion is about, enforcing immigration laws. Illegal immigration status does not cause overcrowding in and of itself, but allowing millions to come here illegally does casue overcrowding, hence overcrowding, hence get the government to do something about illegal immigration.

Either that or I'm missing your point..... :confused:


Not entirely. I agree current immigration laws should be enforced. However those that take the extreme view of these then blame all our problems (health care system, school system, economy) on illegal immigrants are wrong. They are doomsday scenarios that grab ones attention. This is not the case. If 100% of illegal immigrants were gone tomorrow we would still have problems in our health care system, school system, and our economy. Problems that result from fundamental flaws in America's current way of blaming problems on everything around them. We would still have overcrowded public schools, we would still have a portion of the society dependent on the welfare system and some woudl still be unwilling to seek work that was "beneath" them, etc.

[geekwarrior]

Not entirely. I agree current immigration laws should be enforced. However those that take the extreme view of these then blame all our problems (health care system, school system, economy) on illegal immigrants or wrong. They are doomsday scenarios that grab ones attention. This is not the case. If 100% of illegal immigrants were gone tomorrow we would still have problems in our health care system, school system, and our economy. Problems that result from fundamental flaws in America's current way of blaming problems on everything around them. We would still have overcrowded public schools, we woulds till have a portion of the society dependent on the welfare system and some woudl still be unwilling to seek work that was "beneath" them, etc.


your right, there's a lot of problems that arent tied to immigration in all those areas.

But the hospitals, schools, and infrastructure all have one common problem...overcrowding. Taking that away wont fix everything, but it might take some pressure off so we can look at fixing it. My brother works as an engineer for CA Dept of Transportation, my brotherinlaw is a ER nurse, and I have several friends in teaching. That and I have grown up in CA. I may have a narrowminded view of this, but its all what I see firsthand. In the last 2 years I have seen my commute go from 45 minutes to and hour and 30. I have waited in the hospital for 4 hours with my sick 3yr old son till 1 in the morning and finally just went home. I dont want to send my kids to a public school.

I have family in Grand Rapids MI, and am actually thinking of moving there because I cant afford to buy a house out here. Average price is 500,000. 20% down is 100,000 and you have to be making 120000 to be financed. :eek:

I think what has alot of people worried is not the people already here. Its that in CA we really cant take anymore. They say something like 1000 cars a week are added to LA freeways. And thats with alot of people leaving CA because they are fed up.

Is it the end of the world? No. But this problem has been ignored for so many years, and its time to do something about it.

[PyRo]

I wouldn't blame the government for not enforcing immigration laws. We have conservatives in a majority at every level now. I'm sure they would love nothing more than to round up every illegal and send them back to where they came from.

The problem comes from the voters. If they send everyone home all the legal immigrants who can vote as well as all their supporters will not vote for them. If the Republicans sent all the immigrants home I can guarantee you'd have a Democratic majority in congress and a Democratic president. The new government would then apologize and let them all back accomplishing nothing. Basically the majority may want the laws enforced but the minority is powerfull enough to swing things one way or another if either side takes a firm stand.

My unpopular opinion below - *Flame suit on:
The whole idea that everyone should vote isn't a good one (their I said it). Basically you have idiots electing idiots. You have those who go out and vote just so they can say they voted. Those who go vote Republican or Democrat across the board and don't even fully understand what their party or their candidates stand for, mush less recognize the names on the ballots. Those who go vote based on what someone told them to do. Those who go out and vote for Kerry because they don't like us being in Iraq, or those who voted for Bush because the like the idea of us going into Iraq when neither of the groups could talk for more than a minute about why they believe what they do one way or another. You have people who would stand by and watch as we were invaded without lifting a finger and you have people who want to conquer the world voting. Basically you have a large uneducated (in the matters of what the government handles) voting which forces the government to bend over backwards making these people happy so they can stay in power although it may not be in the countries best interest. The right answer isn’t always the popular one but the government is forced to go with the popular one.
My solution? I don't really have one. Perhaps a group of highly educated people who fully understand what is going on in the world, what the results of certain actions will be, what needs to be addressed and what does not (something that the average person me included does not). This way if it became necessary to do something unpopular such as invade another country, build a wall on the Mexican border and deport illegal aliens it could be done without fear of loosing political position. Then their are problems of corruption and decided how to choose who gets to vote, etc which could eventually lead to dictatorship or some form of communism. Their really is no perfect form of government. What government has ever not fallen because of incompetent leaders or corruption? It's an inevitability that every government will fall eventually and a new one rise in its place. Sure some are better then others but their isn't one that can last forever.

[PyRo]

If 100% of illegal immigrants were gone tomorrow we would still have problems in our health care system, school system, and our economy.


We would still have problems but some of the burden would be relieved. We need to take one step at a time to fix these problems and that's a good first step.

[Lohman446]

I think I have addressed schools, lets take this issue

"The roads are overcrowded". Roads are supported through income tax, sales tax, and gas taxes. If people are failing to collect these taxes than it is an issue that needs to be addressed seperatetly from immigration. If you have more people using the roads they should be spending more on gas and gas taxes- pretty logical. The roads should be able to support there use regardless of the immigration status of those using it.

The failure of the system is the failure of your government and its elected officials. Its just convenient for them to have a scapegoat (especially a scapegoat that doesn't vote).

[tropical_fishy]

This thread is not about voting, unfortunately, because I could ramble on for days. Countries like Italy have EXTREMELY high voter turnout. THe theory is because we have yet to have a government oppress us, a la 1930s-40s Italy, or Germany, or Russia, etc, citizens don't feel the needs to go to the polls.

[SCpoloRicker]

I have family in Grand Rapids MI, and am actually thinking of moving there because I cant afford to buy a house out here.

PM me if you want to talk about getting a mortgage. :)

/threadjack

[geekwarrior]

I think I have addressed schools, lets take this issue

"The roads are overcrowded". Roads are supported through income tax, sales tax, and gas taxes. If people are failing to collect these taxes than it is an issue that needs to be addressed seperatetly from immigration. If you have more people using the roads they should be spending more on gas and gas taxes- pretty logical. The roads should be able to support there use regardless of the immigration status of those using it.

The failure of the system is the failure of your government and its elected officials. Its just convenient for them to have a scapegoat (especially a scapegoat that doesn't vote).

Agreed again, its the governments failure. In fact they have been stealing(they call it borrowing) from the transportation fund. But the issure wouldnt be as critical if there wasnt to many people here and there wasnt a need to build. Roads arent built in days or even a year, it takes years of planning and designing. CA was not designed for the amount of growth of illegal immigration. Also there is no ROOM to build more roads because of the demand for housing and the amount of people around a concentrated area.

The government has screwed up, but it is also caused by getting way to many people way to quickly for the state to even keep up. Imagine taking 1000 new people a day into your city? Is your government prepared to do that. Probably not. That is why there is legal immigration, and projects/plans are based on those projections.

You keep saying its the governments fault, yes. But illegal immigration is a problem that the government has to fix. They go hand in hand. And its not just our (CA's) elected officials. Its your elected officials too. Border security is the responsibilty of the FEDERAL government.

[geekwarrior]

PM me if you want to talk about getting a mortgage. :)

/threadjack

lol...might take you up on that, i have an interview next week.

[geekwarrior]

oh, and about the scapegoat. This issue has been pushed by the PEOPLE of CA, pressuring there elected officials to do something about it. People here see the problem, its not the news (they are on the otherside) or the government(they're for big business:cheap labor +good big business), its the people.

[PyRo]

This thread is not about voting, unfortunately, because I could ramble on for days. Countries like Italy have EXTREMELY high voter turnout. THe theory is because we have yet to have a government oppress us, a la 1930s-40s Italy, or Germany, or Russia, etc, citizens don't feel the needs to go to the polls.
It's probably for the best that not everyone votes. The people who don't vote typically have little interest in politics. People who have little interest in policitcs and don't really understand what they're voteing for should really not vote.

[1stdeadeye]

This debate is nonsense!

What part of ILLEGAL ALIEN do you not understand?

The fact that their mere presence here is a crime should be argument enough to round them up and throw them out.

Employers if you hire them, then you need to be fined $1mm per! That would end the economic sanction.

The Mexicans that come here are not looking for citizenship. THey want money. The second leading source of income for Mexico is remitances of money from it's citizens working in the US!!! (Oil is their #1 source)

[Automaggot68]

Blacks and sometimes mexicans.




/miserable

[Rudz]

someone at work suggested we build a wall, someone else said..okay who would build it?? we all looked at each other and laughed..cheap undocumented workers...lol..this debate can go forever in every direction..


/ leave my rambling alone
// i can use all the periods i want
/// why did i just use the slashes??

[kosmo]

It's probably for the best that not everyone votes. The people who don't vote typically have little interest in politics. People who have little interest in policitcs and don't really understand what they're voteing for should really not vote.

I dont vote because as a service member, I have never seen a presidential candidate who is qualified to ask me to die for his policy. I only wish that counted for something.

[RoadDawg]

This debate is nonsense!

What part of ILLEGAL ALIEN do you not understand?

The fact that their mere presence here is a crime should be argument enough to round them up and throw them out.

Employers if you hire them, then you need to be fined $1mm per! That would end the economic sanction.

The Mexicans that come here are not looking for citizenship. THey want money. The second leading source of income for Mexico is remitances of money from it's citizens working in the US!!! (Oil is their #1 source)

Wow... I never would have thought I would say this but I agree 100%.

Also lets not also point fingers at the Hispanic illegals only. Let's get them all, the Europeans, Canadians, Africans, Asians, etc all out. If you are too lazy to become a legal citizen, then don't come here to work either.

On a side note: I wish they would boycott regularly, instead of having a 45 min drive to work, it was only 15 min. :clap:

[bleachit]

This debate is nonsense!

What part of ILLEGAL ALIEN do you not understand?

The fact that their mere presence here is a crime should be argument enough to round them up and throw them out.

)

didn't I say that already, several times, with big bold ILLEGAL letters... I guess it wasnt all the effective.


I like the idea to get the illegals to build the wall... we just make sure they are on Mexico's side while they build it, when its finished...




2 birds, 1 stone.

[PyRo]

someone at work suggested we build a wall, someone else said..okay who would build it?? we all looked at each other and laughed..cheap undocumented workers...lol..this debate can go forever in every direction..


/ leave my rambling alone
// i can use all the periods i want
/// why did i just use the slashes??
Havn't you seen Southpark? Any Chinese guy can build a wall no problem.

[SpecialBlend2786]

On the walk back home from the post office, a group of emo highschoolers told me to go back to where I came from. I just kind of laughed though.

[RoadDawg]

Havn't you seen Southpark? Any Chinese guy can build a wall no problem.

It's those damn Mongolians that keep breaking my city wall!