Kosmos thread about paintball: AGD, S.P., and 15 year olds

[kosmo]

Well its 4 in the morning here in Afghanistan, I havent gone to bed yet, and I have to be to work in 3 hours. So logically, its time for me to convey my thoughts on an industry thats growing up, and the people in it that have no clue how or why.

First, Id like to address Smart Parts. I love this company. Shut up, all of you, I dont care what you think. They are one of the first companies that has effectively structured their business interests around the needs of the consumer. What the heck is kosmo talking about, you may ask yourself. Well its a multi part answer. It starts with everyones favorite company, Brass Eagle. This company was one of the first big players in the paintball industry, we all know that. Why were they so big? Because they looked at the market they were in and said to themselves, "How can we supply a product to this market as cheaply as possible and still make a profit?" This lead to wide stream exposure for the paintball world. Little kids could go in to their local wal-mart and pick up a Talon or a Stingray, and they could play paintball. The budget market is far and away the biggest paintball market there is, and it always will be. Well obviously, these guns were made as cheap as possible because they were simply designed to be cheap, and shoot a paintball in somethings general direction. This lead to the more passionate individuals up scale in the market, to options like AGD, WGP, WDP, and the next company in my agenda, Bob Long. For years, it was pretty much 3 or 4 players in the up scale paintball market. There was AGD with their mags, WGP with their cockers, WDP with their angels, and Smart Parts with their shoe boxes. WDP's Angels were pretty widely regarded as the ultimate marker. It provided better technology than every other marker out there, in a fairly aesthetically pleasing package. Granted, there were people out there who opted for super tuned cockers that could give these Angels a run for their money, but Angels still owned the top spot. Then Bob Long came along and said, "How can I provide something equivalent to that, but make it simpler to produce, cheaper to manufacture, and very profitable?" This lead to the timmy, a gun that was incredibly simple to manufacture by yester-years standards. It didnt have a wacky 14 way solenoid, it didnt need to be manufactured out of costly stainless steel, and its meaty aluminum body could be cosmetically altered every year, creating demand to buy a new one. This lead to a small revolution in the way many markers were created. WDP started trying to simplify their Angels to get costs down and remain competitive. WGP started offering more cosmetic variations of their guns, and eventually started adding electronics to remain competitive. Companies like ICD and Smart Parts copied the general concept with their respective entries, the Bushy and the Impulse. AGD kept plugging along with an expensive to manufacture product, finding new ways to make it even more expensive to manufacture in an attempt to keep their mag competitive. That was the way of things for a few years, new variations of a gun would come out, and some people would buy them for ridiculous prices. But the world of paintball was still firmly nestled in the clutches of the likes of Brass Eagle and Kingman, continuing to plug away with the theory of providing a functioning product for as cheap as possible. Smart Parts started suing people, people got mad, timmies kept getting wierder and wierder looking. Such was the way of life.

But then, as if Henry Ford himself were reinventing the model t, Smart Parts had an idea. It was something that industries throughout the world had understood for a long time, but for some reason it hadnt occurred to paintballers yet. They said to themselves, "Look, we need to try something new. Look at all this stuff. Things like ramping boards and infrared eyes are all the craze. People are paying a good premium for these things. But theyre not expensive. Simple electronics like this cost only a few cents to make, but people are sticking them on expensive guns to make them even more expensive, so only some people can afford to buy them. Imagine what would happen, if from the beginning, we tried to make a gun that was simple to produce, cheap to manufacture, and included the items from a high end gun like eyes, that are actually really cheap?" Aluminum is relatively cheap, but the equipment and expertise required to machine it all pretty and anodize it isnt. So why not use a simple aluminum tube to house the components, with a cosmetic plastic sleeve? And why does the grip need to be made of aluminum, thats a fairly complicated piece to machine as well. Decent plastics are just as strong anyway, and are in many ways actually much more durable. So they made a gun that is capable of holding its own with the likes of a $1000 e-mag, and figured out a way to make it cost less than $100 bucks to produce. They dont have to sell them for a grand to make a profit. And they dont have to worry about all those people they pissed off with their lawsuits. The features of this marker, and the market price of it, put it squarely within reach of average joe schmoe, who doesnt even know about SPs legal games, let alone care. Theres also about 5 million times as many average joe schmoes buying paintball guns as there are Dave Youngblood Juniors running around buying the high end stuff.

This leads me to AGD. Where, oh where, did they ever go wrong? And is it too late to right the ship? First off, where they went wrong. When the mag came out, it was a revolution. Even though it wasnt easy to manufacture, what with its oddly shaped parts made of extremely expensive stainless steel, it was an easy concept to understand, which made it easy to maintain and operate. People loved it. But that was going on 20 years ago now. It was a good concept back then, and it got AGD a fan base. But they ran it into the ground. It didnt have the competitive advantages of guns like the timmy and e-cocker. It wasnt as efficient, it couldnt be shot as fast, and it was a lot heavier. Then the eyes came out, and every other gun on the market quit chopping paintballs. So AGD set out to modernize their marker. They added lvl 10 bolts to stop the chopping. They tried E triggers, but not only did it not work overly well, but they got sued into stopping. They converted to aluminum. They tried cosmetics. They got side tracked by a million and one different side projects like the warp feed. All of this stuff was ridiculously expensive. It was also a huge mistake. Everything they had to do to the mag to make it competitive was so much more expensive than what their competitors did. Lvl 10 was not only difficult to manufacture, it was difficult to implement. All they had to do with timmys to get them to stop chopping was put $1 of electronics on it, drill a hole in the side, and slap a plastic cover over the wires. AGD was trying to put jet engines on the Hindenburg. Not that I dont respect AGD as a company, or the individuals involved. Tom had so much passion for these projects and ideas that it was truely a sight to behold. No other company in the industry could match how much AGD cared about the products they were putting out. Everyone knew this, and that is why to this day AGD survives on a reputation for putting out a quality, if not high tech, product. Thats why I think theres still a market for future products the company could put out. If AGD sat down and said to themselves like SP did, "How can we make a competitive product, starting from scratch, with the goal of keeping manufacturing costs to a minimum" it would surely sell. AGD has a reputation that far exceeds Smart Parts reputation, and that alone is a powerful marketing tool.

My worry is this: the crazy little 15 year old kids. Tom comes into this forum, asks what people want, and we tell him. And because Tom is a passionate person, he has historically listened too much. The population on this forum for the most part cannot be trusted to provide accurate market analysis. Its a bunch of kids who change what they want every 30 seconds. Even the ones who are not kids, so many of them share the passion AGD has for an innovative product that its impossible to get unbiased feedback on whether or not its a truly good idea. There arent many people on here who can speak for average joe schmoe, going to walmart looking for something that doesnt cost more than 250 bucks. Thats where the money is. Some people look at it as selling out, or maybe that devoting AGDs resources to something like that would keep them from being able to develop innovative off-the-wall ideas that nobody else would think of. But it certainly would fund it a lot better than the e-mag did.

I dont know, maybe Im wrong. Maybe Im just really tired. But I definitely respect what SP has done to the paintball industry. I hope AGD can bring their own brand of success to it. And I certainly hope anyone who says AGG dies of syphallis. But thats neither here nor there. Im going to bed.

[minimag03]

AGD was trying to put jet engines on the Hindenburg.
:spit_take

You make good points. If you look at it from your point of view, SP has helped the paintball industry more than hurt it. Sure a few companies were burnt when they started sueing, but was it anyone important? ICD, AKA, and so on. All of them were small companies that haven't helped paintball to the extent that SP has.

[Steelrat]

People don't despise SP because they brought ramping boards and infrared eyes to the masses. Did you really think the Ion is the reason SP catches so much flak?

SP products are fine, its their business practices that make me want to vomit.

[warbeak2099]

Your point about Brass Eagle has two sides though. Allowing children to walk into Walmart and purchase a cheap, plastic gun has increased the rate of pranks and injuries caused by paintball guns off the field. Brass Eagle certainly had good intentions about bringing the sport to everyone, but they did it carelessly and irresponsibly.

SP also had good intentions as well as the intention to make a profit. I mean hey, you have to make money in order for it to be worth running a company! However, they too went about their business while causing negative side-effects. We see that today in the examples of companies embroiled in lawsuits and smaller manufactorers who have been shut down even though their products were arguably superior to SP's. Ex. AKA. Don't tell em for one second that Vikings and Excals weren't two of the best electros on the market.
SP does put out a good product. I have nothing against the Ion, I think its great for the price. However, their other stuff like the Shocker is so reliant on hype that it gets quite tiring. The Shocker is so inferior to other guns of the same price that it's sickening. You have better guns for the same price like the Defiant II and the Cyborg. But players are pretty much conned into buying Shockers instead frequently.

There are two sides to every story. Yes, these big conglomos have brought a lot to the sport. But they have also done considerable damage. These are facts. The controversy is whether or not the damage outweighs the advantages.

[Teamslayer76]

I'm sorry, This is the most ignorant thing I have ever heard. Really.
I'm sure if more than half of the people here can decide what a "average joe wants".
Anyone can, it must shoot paintballs, and look good doing it!

Also you idea on how SP has cause more growth and prosperty for the paintball industry is stupid. If anything they have caused more problems. Think about AKA, they make the best regulators on the market, thats arguabile. I find it shocking that you would even say that.
ICD, WDP, and many others were put down under its blade... :tard:

[minimag03]

I'm sorry, This is the most ignorant thing I have ever heard. Really.
I'm sure if more than half of the people here can decide what a "average joe wants".
Anyone can, it must shoot paintballs, and look good doing it!

Also you idea on how SP has cause more growth and prosperty for the paintball industry is stupid. If anything they have caused more problems. Think about AKA, they make the best regulators on the market, thats arguabile. I find it shocking that you would even say that.
ICD, WDP, and many others were put down under its blade... :tard:

Lets not start flaming. This thread has the potential to be interesting. Just cause you don't agree with him doesn't mean you need to bbq him.

How many markers has ICD sold since it's doors opened? How many has SP sold? I can't tell you the exact numbers, but SP has sold more. Don't forget that SP isn't the only people making profit. Local field owners also receive lots profit from selling SP stuff. Field owners could sell ICD products if they wanted to but why bother when everyone wants SP's products.

[nate2k191]

I think you make good points as well, however, if AGD made some really cheap products, like many other companies are doing now, where would people go for a quality marker? I think AGD has a pretty good nitche for buyers who want quality, style, and something different. (people who want an upgrade from a tippman or spyder)

They've made some great innovative products (flatline, 6-pak, warp, x-valve, ult) - I'd hate to see them just start manufacturing the cheapest markers/products possible, leave that to kingman, and sp.

It will be challenging, but it would be awesome if AGD re-invented the electronic style mags and tactical marker. (just a dream or promising faith in a innovative company?)


Lets not start flaming. This thread has the potential to be interesting. Just cause you don't agree with him doesn't mean you need to bbq him.

agreed. this can get good.


Local field owners also receive lots profit from selling SP stuff. Field owners could sell ICD products if they wanted to but why bother when everyone wants SP's products.

Local fields also get big benifits from all the paintballs, field fees, air fees that come from many new ion owners, strengthening the paintball industry.

[ahellers]

hmm you make a good point about the level 10. i never really thought about it that way.
as for where did agd go wrong. well im not sure how much longer they can keep going if they dont put out some more up-grades, i mean look at the MOTM thread, just a guess but ill bet over half the ups on those markers are not made by agd. i mean really id like to give them more buisiness but there are only so many xvalves intelliframes and ule bodies i can buy.
t

[nate2k191]

hmm you make a good point about the level 10. i never really thought about it that way.
as for where did agd go wrong. well im not sure how much longer they can keep going if they dont put out some more up-grades, i mean look at the MOTM thread, just a guess but ill bet over half the ups on those markers are not made by agd. i mean really id like to give them more buisiness but there are only so many xvalves intelliframes and ule bodies i can buy.
t

AGD sells rogue and deadlywind the base products like slug bodies, rails, and frames if im not mistaken, but i think logic and some other companies make a few products on their own. I'd definately welcome more AGD upgrades, but they have to see some demand and future profit.

[ahellers]

AGD sells rogue and deadlywind the base products like slug bodies, rails, and frames if im not mistaken, but i think logic and some other companies make a few products on their own. I'd definately welcome more AGD upgrades, but they have to see some demand and future profit.

i dont know where rogue and dw gets there materials from so that might be valid, but as for needing to see demad for futre profit, no new products = no new profit, at least the way i see it.
t

[nate2k191]

i dont know where rogue and dw gets there materials from so that might be valid, but as for needing to see demad for futre profit, no new products = no new profit, at least the way i see it.
t

very true. i kinda want to change my major to engineering/science and try to work for AGD in the future. haha

[ahellers]

just cerious but how many new products have come our sence tom left.
i know it would never work but what if ao pooled money and bought AGD. i know it would probably turn into somthing like a trible war and lord of the flys but it might at least make a funny sitcom
t

[deathstalker]

Also you idea on how SP has cause more growth and prosperty for the paintball industry is stupid. If anything they have caused more problems. Think about AKA, they make the best regulators on the market, thats arguabile. I find it shocking that you would even say that.
ICD, WDP, and many others were put down under its blade... :tard:
Last time I checked, AKALMP chose not to deal with Smart Parts, therefore they stopped manufacturing the Viking and Excalibur. I also disagree with your examples of ICD and WDP. WDP fired a salvo at Smart Parts in court and scored a hit. ICD is still manufacturing and selling markers. Weren't you paying attention when Bushies with PDS were selling for about $220 just months ago? The Promaster is a bargain and slowly but surely inching closer to the $300 mark. Freestyles are becoming quite the bargain as well.

I have two questions that should help me understand those with whom I disagree. First, which companies went out of business as a direct result of Smart Parts? Second, how many people own products from companies they claim to have been harmed by Smart Parts?

Now it's time to read Tom's thread. :D

[jenarelJAM]

Don't tell em for one second that Vikings and Excals weren't two of the best electros on the market.


Don't tell me for one second that Vikings and Excals aren't two of the best electros on the market.
Haven't you seen the recent 04 viking/06 cyborg/g7 fly poll? Last I checked, the 04 viking had just as many votes as the 06 borg... and thats with 06 borg hype right now, and the viking going against a marker two years newer.

When SP put AKA out of business, they stopped me from buying anything from them again. And I don't care if they don't care, I'd rather spend my money supporting a company and gun that will:
1. Never break
2. Shoot the second fastest verified full cycles with paint(at the moment, 31 bps, i forget who made the vid)
3. Still compete with cutting edge, not overhyped markers, TWO YEARS LATER!!!

[kosmo]

No, I didnt say the Ion is why people hate smart parts. People hate smart parts because of the lawsuits. And the ion gets crapped on by people who hate smart parts because of it.

Yes, SP screwed over a lot of people in the industry with their lawsuits. But in the long run, it will be better for the consumer and the sport. One analogy would be the motorcycle industry. Before the depression, there were hundreds of pretty small companies making motorcycles, yes some were bigger than others, but none of them were really achieving a level of success that would allow the industry to mature. Then the depression killed off all the little companies, and the ones that were left over, like Harley Davidson, were a lot stronger for it. Their strength let the industry become a lot more stable than it was. It also allowed the stronger companies to grow into powerful corporations whos well funded R & D departments could accomplish a lot more than a couple hundred guys in a garage. It let them refine their manufacturing processes to even further increase profitability and reduce cost to the consumer. In the end, it was better for almost everybody. Also, I wasnt aware that any of these lawsuits had hurt ICD or WDP. Both companies are still going strong because they are both emulating what SP has been doing. ICD is bringing out guns that are on the lower end of the market competing with the likes of the Ion, probably selling a lot more guns than WDP does. But SP lowered the price of the Ion again, further increasing the need for ICD and other companies competing to lower theirs. WDP meanwhile, for the past few years has been working on ways to continually make their markers cheaper to produce, while still selling them in the high end market. A lot more profit per marker, but a lot less markers.

As far as the ludicrous allegation that BE and Walmart putting guns in kids hands has hurt the industry, thats complete bs. Absolute nonsense, I say. For every 1 person that gets turned off to the sport because of them, 1000 get pulled in by them. Arguing that prankster kids hurt the paintball industry to the point of it doing more damage than good is like arguing that when some idiot shoots somebody and blames GTA, it hurts the video game industry.

I would also like to address the myth that upgrades and other such parts will be the savior of AGD. Rubbish, I say. Look at the math of it. Average joe schmoe who buys a paintball gun NEVER upgrades it. Most people who upgrade their marker limit their upgrades to something like a barrel and a fancy hopper, or maybe if theyre a little more extreme, an air tank. Also, a single upgrade, to remain competitive with other upgrades brought out by the industry, is going to cost nearly as much to design and produce as an entire gun thats designed right in the first place. So, why should AGD sell 25,000 upgrade parts for a minimum of profit, when they could sell 100,000 guns for a much greater profit margin?

They shouldnt, but they are anyway. Maybe they want to because they like that part of the industry better, I dont know. Im not in the company. But it seems painfully obvious to me that AGD has a good reputation, and a good reputation is not something that can be earned by plastering ads all over magazines. If they were to design a gun, like smart parts did with the ion, to be cheap to produce from the start, they would hold an inherent advantage within the niche paintball industry of people who hate smart parts but have little other choice than to buy an ion. Im not saying the gun has to suck, because obviously the ion doesnt. Unless youre retarded. Then you think it sucks. But they could design a gun, with the TLC and ingenuity that only AGD is known for, and market it to the masses. It would be successful.

As far as the Viking being competitive 2 years later, OH MY GOD, WOW!!! THEY MADE A GUN THAT LASTED THROUGH 2 YEARS OF UNCHANGING TECHNOLOGY! I AM SO IMPRESSED! Not that I am bashing the gun, I admit that it is very nice. Obviously though, if it could provide the performance that it does, while still being really easy to manufacture and highly profitable, AKA wouldve had the money to duke it out with SP. But they didnt. Pretty much the exact same problem as with AGD. They had something that, even though the Viking mightve been better than the e-mag, it wasnt providing the profitability required to survive in a maturing industry.

[Zygote]

You have your timmy timeline messed up.

1999 - ICD Bushmaster
2000 - SP Impulse, Bob Long Defiant (private label Bushmaster)
2001? - first Intimidators (more or less Defiants modified to fit into spyder bodies)
2002? - modern Intimidator

[kosmo]

Yeah, I was pretty tired and sure I messed up something like that. But its the same general idea regardless.

[Steelrat]

No, I didnt say the Ion is why people hate smart parts. People hate smart parts because of the lawsuits. And the ion gets crapped on by people who hate smart parts because of it.

Yes, SP screwed over a lot of people in the industry with their lawsuits. But in the long run, it will be better for the consumer and the sport. One analogy would be the motorcycle industry. Before the depression, there were hundreds of pretty small companies making motorcycles, yes some were bigger than others, but none of them were really achieving a level of success that would allow the industry to mature. Then the depression killed off all the little companies, and the ones that were left over, like Harley Davidson, were a lot stronger for it. Their strength let the industry become a lot more stable than it was. It also allowed the stronger companies to grow into powerful corporations whos well funded R & D departments could accomplish a lot more than a couple hundred guys in a garage. It let them refine their manufacturing processes to even further increase profitability and reduce cost to the consumer. In the end, it was better for almost everybody. Also, I wasnt aware that any of these lawsuits had hurt ICD or WDP. Both companies are still going strong because they are both emulating what SP has been doing. ICD is bringing out guns that are on the lower end of the market competing with the likes of the Ion, probably selling a lot more guns than WDP does. But SP lowered the price of the Ion again, further increasing the need for ICD and other companies competing to lower theirs. WDP meanwhile, for the past few years has been working on ways to continually make their markers cheaper to produce, while still selling them in the high end market. A lot more profit per marker, but a lot less markers.

ICD settled with SP, and WDP filed lawsuits of their own. Yeah, awesome way for the industry to "mature." And last I checked, WDP doesn't have anything remotely like the ION in their catalog. If anything, WDP has been cranking out MORE expensive markers, though they are rumored to have something new coming out soon. And the analogy on the motorcycles is not relevant to this discussion, since you yourself point out that market forces, i.e. the Depression, forced a consolidation of the industry. In the case of SP, it was a company with resources targeting those companies with insufficient resources to defend themselves.


As far as the Viking being competitive 2 years later, OH MY GOD, WOW!!! THEY MADE A GUN THAT LASTED THROUGH 2 YEARS OF UNCHANGING TECHNOLOGY! I AM SO IMPRESSED! Not that I am bashing the gun, I admit that it is very nice. Obviously though, if it could provide the performance that it does, while still being really easy to manufacture and highly profitable, AKA wouldve had the money to duke it out with SP. But they didnt.

So because they didn't sell large volumes, and couldn't generate the revenue to fight a legal battle with SP, they deserve to be shut down? Thats interesting logic. The gun was selling well enough for AKA to make a buck or two, and provide people with a great marker. What if I were to tell you that a member of the Gardner family is a lawyer, which essentially allows them to file an incredible number of lawsuits without the enormous cost usually associated with litigation?

[tyrion2323]

Kosmo,

I understand your position, but it's oversimplified. I suppose that maturation can be a subjective topic, but I find it hard to believe any claims that SP helped paintball through their actions. I admit - the Ion was a fantastic idea, but that's not the reason people dislike SP.

And Steelrat, forgive me if I'm wrong, but weren' t both of hte Gardner brothers somehow connected to law as well? Or am I just remembering things that never happened...?

[Steelrat]

And Steelrat, forgive me if I'm wrong, but weren' t both of hte Gardner brothers somehow connected to law as well? Or am I just remembering things that never happened...?

I thought it was their father maybe, but I don't have the time now to research it, which is why I left it a bit vauge.

[garto]

Funny this should come up, i just wrote a paper on this. Well the father of the garner brothers is a laywer and both the garner brothers have business degrees. An insteresting thing to note is that from my information, http://www.haascnc.com/cncmag/explore_issues.asp?year=2006&volumeNo=10#2006 , and http://www.wooster.edu/magazine/spring2005/paintball.php, I was able to extrapolate a rough guess as to how many guns Dye and SP produce in a year. Dye makes roughly 24,000 paintball markers a year and SP makes roughly 125,000 a year. Now I suspect that the SP number is inflated, maybe 20% so that still leaves 96,000 markers a year. Which company would you choose to support as an investor? What company do you think has more money to spend on R&D and for sponsorships and the like?

Kosmo what you say if spot on (at least in my humble opinion). SP has become a powerhouse of the likes of Tippmann and Kingman, except they have done it in a higher end market. Sure, Dye produces better quality markers but Smart Parts sells more for less. Everyone wants the paintball companies to grow and expand and everyone wants new technology for less but the only way that will happen is with growth. Once the market matures then the real fighting will begin so we should be pushing for growth and SP will help that.

Look at the home theater market. 10 years ago how many people had a home theater system? Now look at the market, they even sell them at Costco now, everyone is buying them. Hell everyone buys Bose, but any audiophile can tell you that those speakers don't offer the best sound and nor are they cheap but everyone still buys them. They are a company with a business mind and they came up with the idea of the WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor). Well SP came up with the idea of the PAF (Parent Acceptance Factor). Since most players are between the ages of 12 and 24 most depend upon their parents to buy them their equiptment (this is for all paintball players, not just the ones on this forum). So all they had to do was make a marker that was cheap and that looked good on paper. I know when I bought my first gun I wanted to choose and m3 dragun but my mom purchased the Pirahna instead. It was cheaper but had the same spec as the dragun which is why she bought it. This is the PAF factor that can sell markers which SP is playing off of.

Okay enough ranting, Im not sure if that last bit made any sense but so be it. Too much studying for finals...
-Chris

[slade]

It didnt have a wacky 14 way solenoid

And why does the grip need to be made of aluminum, thats a fairly complicated piece to machine as well.
gah! *shudder*

the angel solenoid is a 4-way, not 14. that was a typo in the manual. its the same solenoid type in almost any electropneumatic marker.

the frame IS aluminum. and its not hard to machine at all. the cost comes from three things: machining time, finishing, and anodizing. they have no decorative milling which greatly reduces machining time, and by powdercoating all the aluminum parts, they dont need a make a finishing pass or beadblast/polish the part, and powdercoating is cheaper than ano anyway, so they save a ton of cash by doing that.

[Teamslayer76]

This thread is full of generalizations. "People only hate the ion that hated smart parts before hand" You know thats not true. I hate the Ion becuase it brought the values of more expensive markers down. For people on a budget like myself paying 1050, for a NERVE then having the price drop to 475 less than nine months after you purchase it makes me FURIOUS!

Also I never said that they put AKA out of bussiness, I said they made tem loose a big source of profit and damaged thier company. They have done this to gain more market share. I can name alot of companies that have closed due to Smartparts lawsuits, patents, ect ect.

Those are:
AGD
ICD
WDP
AKA
There are likley more but I can't think of them off the top of my head right now. :)

[Zygote]

I can name alot of companies that have closed due to Smartparts lawsuits, patents, ect ect.

Those are:
AGD
ICD
WDP
AKA
There are likley more but I can't think of them off the top of my head right now. :)


You must have meant to say something else or I'm not understanding this sentence. Not one of those companies is closed.

[RapidTransit]

Going on the home theater analogy... Do I want some $3,000 receiver or do I want a Mark Levison pre-amp and mono blocks. SP put atleast one company that I know of, SP has now put the market in an ugly position. They stall innovation. I have an Ion to see what it was all about I did not like it. I'd rather have a Spyder or a M98 any day. People think oh its $199, yes it is but what now? Oh now you need a freak kit, a max flow tank and reg, get the blackheart board. I can't wait for their patent to run out because they will be SOL :rofl: I would love it to see some even cheaper Ion knock off came out from China and sold for $100 :spit_take

[slade]

For people on a budget like myself paying 1050, for a NERVE then having the price drop to 475 less than nine months after you purchase it makes me FURIOUS!
youre on a budget and you spent $1050 for a nerve? thats your mistake right there. :p

[minimag03]

So because they didn't sell large volumes, and couldn't generate the revenue to fight a legal battle with SP, they deserve to be shut down? Thats interesting logic.

He just means that SP had done more for the industry than AKA has. He doesn't mean they deserved to be shut down.

In AKA's defense, their sells of markers were inscreasing before they were sued (if memory serves correctly). So maybe they could have became a larger player in the industry if they hadn't been sued.

[kosmo]

That rambling about the cheap Ion knockoff from China is exactly my point. Sooner or later thats what companies will start doing, and the end result is a pretty decent gun for 100 bucks, when 5 years ago you could only get a piece of crap blowback for 100 bucks. Personally, I appreciate that. I hate how much paintball costs. Now they need to get cheap paint. Also, I thought the ion frame was plastic, my bad. It is indeed just the trigger though.

One more thing, I really dont care about the specific crap like saying an Angel has a 4 way or a 14 way. Obviously Im not a market scientist or anything, Im just bored out of my mind. This place is like jail. Take what I say worth a grain of salt when it comes to anything factual, since technically I quit following the paintball scene a couple years ago when those agg (insert a bunch of expletives here) punks came out. Im merely commenting on where Im seeing the industry has gone since then.

[Steelrat]

He just means that SP had done more for the industry than AKA has. He doesn't mean they deserved to be shut down.



The way I read it, he was saying that if AKA had been pumping out low end, cheap markers like the ION, and make more profit, then they would have been able to fight off SP. SP having figured out how to dominate the market does not give them the right to eliminate their competition, or extort fees, by threatening lawsuits that only they have the capability of financing.

[r-unit]

I would MUCH rather shoot an AGD "ion" than a smart parts "ion" I quote the ion because I'm referring to a gun similar to it (low price, somewhat high performance).

If they could make one and PROVE to the consumer that it was higher quality, "better", and also made it look better, it would sell, but they would have to match Smart Parts amazing advertising department, and sell to tons of stores, which would be extremely extremely extremely expensive at first.

[minimag03]

SP having figured out how to dominate the market does not give them the right to eliminate their competition, or extort fees, by threatening lawsuits that only they have the capability of financing.

Who says it doesn't give them the right to do so? The richest people have been able to do what they wanted since the beginning of history. SP is no different if you look at it from that point of view.

[punkncat]

Who says it doesn't give them the right to do so? The richest people have been able to do what they wanted since the beginning of history. SP is no different if you look at it from that point of view.


I have to agree. Just because it doesn't seem right to many doesn't mean they they have no right to use that as a tactic. I mean hey, if others can't afford to battle you in court and you basically force them to either quit or pay royalties, you have used your resources to give you an advantage over the competition.

I think its unfortunate that they have chosen to practice buisiness that way, but as of yet its not illegal.

[RapidTransit]

I have to agree. Just because it doesn't seem right to many doesn't mean they they have no right to use that as a tactic. I mean hey, if others can't afford to battle you in court and you basically force them to either quit or pay royalties, you have used your resources to give you an advantage over the competition.

I think its unfortunate that they have chosen to practice buisiness that way, but as of yet its not illegal.
They do its called the Sherman Anti Trust Act. But nowadays the only people under their scope is Microsoft, if the goverment would act like they did way back when, we would probably be still strolling down the street to our favorite corner drugstore named after the owner or street and not CVS or Walgreens. And ExxonMobile would stay separate, What the hell is wrong with this country they break up Standard Oil to only have 2 of the largest oil companies that were part of the break up merge together again. :cuss:

[REDRT]

youre on a budget and you spent $1050 for a nerve? I'm on a budget and have $1800 in the Emag, $1300 in the RT and I believe close to $500 in the minimag currently. Spread it out over the 12 years that I have been playing. And it isn't too bad. Too bad most money in up's was spent in the last few years though. :rolleyes:

AGD=Quality. Always has hopefully always will. Making cost effective crap wouldn't work for AGD. They're too small not to have top self stuff. Might back fire if they did. How many times do you think something just isn't as good as you remember it or just not as good as the original? Never with AGD. And as a rule quality like that is going to cost more than a mass produced throw aways.
All I know is I'm seeing more and more mags in the store. Seems like I'm often tuning someones lvl10,maybe a ult or just talking to someone interested in my mags/mags in general. I met AO's own Dharma punk a few weeks ago by pure chance at the store. A fella came in last night with a Classic RT with a Z-grip. A new to mags guy in his 30's. Plays out in the woods with friends. Heard mags were the best quality money could buy and are just as reliable. The word still echos far and wide my friends. No need to join them when in many ways we still beat them. :shooting:

[Steelrat]

Who says it doesn't give them the right to do so? The richest people have been able to do what they wanted since the beginning of history. SP is no different if you look at it from that point of view.


So because someone can do something, that automatically makes it right? Obviously the can do it, as they did do it. I'm sure you have enough moral fibre to call out something you feel is wrong, which is what I am doing here. If you want the future of paintball to be large corporations that smother or intimidate any small, innovative, and defenseless start-ups, then go on justifying SP's behavior. I think it's pretty sad.

[RoamingStorm]

Let me make an analogy.

A Music store I used to work for was owned by a very nice german guy named Horst. Horst was in his 70s when he decided to sell the store. He was a certified dealer with Fender, Ibanez, Hofner, Gibson, and Peavey. Now the new owners could be nice at times but they bought the store out of recreation. Probably to get the wife out of the house

Their Idea make the store not look like a drug front (which of course it wasnt) and eliminate all these high end guitar contracts, form a contract with Johnson CO. and Sell cheap guitars for $400 a crack. Very soon I noticed being able to sell two or three guitars a week go down to about one 8 year old kid a month who floundered into the store with mommy and daddy. The music instructors left with their rent money, then I left. The store is now barely scraping along on doing repairs.

Now how does this relate?

Smart parts is using the same ideology. This might be a more applicable market but people still want high end products. There will always be a demand for high end products. Smart Parts know this which is why they have the Shocker and Nerve. Will this help the consumer? Will this help the industry? people can make predictions but no one can no for sure. From what I understand they put patents on EVERYTHING whether or not they were the first on the block. I dont like Smart Parts because they dont realize that they need competition in order to survive. They are trying to eliminate competition to drive the market. Sure all these rave guns made out of durable plastic is creating lots of revenue for fields, but when it comes down to it. The recreational players are the ones resorting to backyard fields to eliminate the new players who got an ion for christmas.

Who here is pumped for the AKA/Alien "Remains"? Anyone know when they hit the market?

[kosmo]

That analogy sucks.

[RoamingStorm]

What I was trying to say is, Smart Parts is looking to make the cheapest gun possible, a low end product. Its the same thing that happened there, once no more high end products were available the customers left and the store is shutting down. People do want high end products which is why there is such a demand for the Angels, Matrixes, Borgs. Hobbyists dont use low end products, they spend money on products that match their needs. Smart Parts would do well to recognize this

[minimag03]

So because someone can do something, that automatically makes it right? Obviously the can do it, as they did do it. I'm sure you have enough moral fibre to call out something you feel is wrong, which is what I am doing here. If you want the future of paintball to be large corporations that smother or intimidate any small, innovative, and defenseless start-ups, then go on justifying SP's behavior. I think it's pretty sad.

I don't like the fact that other companies have to pay the price; it is sad. But paintball isn't a stable business. Maybe SP is just looking out for their own interest in an industry where most companies fail.

[AGDRetro]

I agree with you on some points but the thing is that you don't seem to have your facts straight. Bob Long and the Intimidator didn't come into the picture until after the Bushmaster and Impulse. As far as these stacked tube electro-pneumatics go, it was the Bushmaster that first entered the arena as a simplified version of what a slimmed down Angel could be. All 3 of these guns however still use a 4-way solenoid (which WDP just calls a 14-way), where they choose to put it in the gun is simply different. Is the Bushy/Imp/Timmy a simpler version of the Angel? Absolutely! Use a common 9-volt and and easy to remove bolt out the back... it eliminates an entire tube from the Angel design, but in the case of the Bushmaster & Impulse creates an ugly tub for batteries and boards...

The Bushmaster proved that the speed of an Angel could be made much more affordable. In fact it was the platform for Bob Long's first entry into the gun market, the original Defiant.

I will give you one other thing. The Intimidator & Impulse drove the "gun of the week" craze. I remember a time when it seemed like everybody and their mom had a "custom" Timmy or Impulse at the field. Nowadays it seems to me like the EGO and ION have filled this role, again a high-end gun and an affordable tournament entry...

[slade]

I would MUCH rather shoot an AGD "ion" than a smart parts "ion" I quote the ion because I'm referring to a gun similar to it (low price, somewhat high performance).
what interests me is, what would happen if AGD released an ion knockoff that was of LOWER quality? im willing to bet many people would still buy it, and AOers would insist it is better.


One more thing, I really dont care about the specific crap like saying an Angel has a 4 way or a 14 way. Obviously Im not a market scientist or anything, Im just bored out of my mind. This place is like jail. Take what I say worth a grain of salt when it comes to anything factual, since technically I quit following the paintball scene a couple years ago when those agg (insert a bunch of expletives here) punks came out. Im merely commenting on where Im seeing the industry has gone since then.
its just that if you know how it works, if someone built a 14 way they would either need it for something very complicated, or theyd just be an idiot. probably the ladder.

[minimag03]

I agree with you on some points but the thing is that you don't seem to have your facts straight.

In fact it was the platform for Bob Long's first entry into the gun market, the original Defiant.

There is no need to talk about such misc. details. If there were I would point out that Bob Long first made cockers before he made Defiants.

[slade]

There is no need to talk about such misc. details. If there were I would point out that Bob Long first made cockers before he made Defiants.
...hey, didnt you trade for my 97 bob long cocker? ;) how is she?

[minimag03]

I sold her to a sailor in Hawaii (really). I regret doing it now since the left feed is so rare. :(

[sanity]

There are two sides to every story. Yes, these big conglomos have brought a lot to the sport. But they have also done considerable damage. These are facts. The controversy is whether or not the damage outweighs the advantages.

Mmmm imagine where technology would be today if the government had never broken up AT&T-Bell Labs...

Monopolies can accomplish things others cannot, but the consumer pays for it.

[quasimorte]

ok here is my two cents.

I sell and my family owns a billiards buisness (pool tables and game room furniture). we carry three manufacturers, connelly (full custom, send in your own wood and they will build you a table.), brunswick (who hasen't heard of brunswick), and legacy (new import line from china.) Every table we sell is at least $1900, our average sale is around $4000. now here is a little of how this relates. the shooters, the guys who know pool spend their 4000 all on the table and get a piece of furniture that will last at least 60 years. then there is the middle cutomer, he spends about 2500 to 3000 on the table and gets an upgrade, cloth sticks, a 1000 on a poker table that sort of thing. his table will last about 50 years without major problems. then there is the other customer, he spend about 2000 on a table, about 1500 on a poker table and chairs and about 500 on upgrades for the table or poker table. his table will last about 30 years and still be playable. now unlike paintball billiards isn't changing, the game is the same it was when tom cruize was hustling in a pool hall.

the goals of each of these typ of customers is different, the 2000 table sale goes to the family looking for something for the kids. they don't know how much they will use it and are not willing to spend huge money on an airloom(sp sorry). these are the ion kiddies, they want the flash and they want to play, but they either can't get mom to fork over 500 for a midd range gun or can't come up with it themselves. this allows them to play and still be able to shoot what their richer friends can. nothing wrong with this makes money all around. side note( our biggest mark up is on the low end tables, we make more from selling one of these, percentage wise, than we do selling a higher end table.)

then there is the middle customer, they most often have played before and want something that will last but still have a whole room to furnish and can't devote 4000 just to one piece, these are are the automag bread and butter, they know durrablility and quality when they see it but also know that they will need to fork out 200 for a good air system and probably about 75 on a good hopper so they budget accordingly.

finally there is the top end customer, they know what they want and are willing to pay for it, they know a brunswick will outlast almost anything else out ther and play better to boot (even if we tell them they are wrong they still know this and buy that table anyway :)) these are the guys forking out 1000 or more for their guns, they want preformance and they know where to go to get it.

The end result of all this is that more people will be playing the game and as such more people will buy more stuff. that all the manufaturers care about and in the end thats all the retailers care about. now here is where ethics and customer service come in. we sell more tables for the small market we are in because of our customer service. we send people to our competition so they will see this, we litterally incourage them to go to our nearist competitor, so they will see the difference, 99% of all of the come back and buy from us. it is because we carry a better product. we have customers that save litteraly thousands of dollars up just to buy a table from us instead of getting a cheap sears or dick's sporting goods table. this is AGD's place in the market, and they can make a ton of money right were they are.

sp make an accessible product, they serve the need of the ion kiddies ot be able to shoot 20pbs without spending 1000 or more which i think is great, but look at the rep the pump player get at a rec field, people make fun of them untill they show that they can own with 100 ball hoppers and one fill of C02. when the kids that got the ions figure out that shoot 20bps doesn't make them a better player they either quit or practice, which means they spend even more money on paint and upgrades and everything else. sp has had a lasting effect on this sport and will not be forgoten for a very long time. so what if they made some stupid legal decitions or questionable buisness practices, thats the american way. who wouldn't want to be the guy that sued mcdonalds for spilling coffee on himself?

just my say

[kosmo]

what interests me is, what would happen if AGD released an ion knockoff that was of LOWER quality? im willing to bet many people would still buy it, and AOers would insist it is better.


Most definitely, but theyd have to be pretty careful about it. One of the biggest reasons I love what SP did with the ion was how theyve played the price game with it. When it came out it was selling for around 300 bucks, which priced it just out of the low end market. Its features though, were plainly a mid level marker. Since then, theyve lowered the msrp to 199, putting it in the "upper low end" pricing segment. That means that if anyone wants to compete with it, one of the best ways will be to price their entry a little bit lower. Thus continues the cycle of bringing the middle class markers down into the low end. Granted, theres still a lot of kiddies out there who make 5 dollar allowances and wont be willing to save up another 30 or 40 bucks to get something really nice as opposed to whatever crap kingman has spewed out this month, but a lot of people would make the jump.

Anyway, my point is that if SP had made the ion and sold it straight up for 199, a lot of people would just assume it was crap. But since they started it higher, and then moved it lower, it presents the image of being a steal even moreso. If AGD made one that was lower quality, and priced in competition with the ion right now, it would obviously be in the low end and the only people buying it would be AOers and kiddies not knowing the difference. It would still sell, but not like hotcakes. And everyone knows how hotcakes sell. Nobody can resist cake.

[Corbet]

Can someone explain what happened in the fast few years? When I got out of paintball SP had filed a patent for Electronic markers and Kaye wanted to "lay low" for a while, but did they sue everyone? How is AGD able to sell emags online? What did WDP do in the courts? What companies went out of business?

[minimag03]

Can someone explain what happened in the fast few years? When I got out of paintball SP had filed a patent for Electronic markers and Kaye wanted to "lay low" for a while, but did they sue everyone? How is AGD able to sell emags online? What did WDP do in the courts? What companies went out of business?

Tom Kaye "layed low" by not making the Emag for awhile. I think AGD is selling them now because they are just clearing old stock.

SP sued ICD, AKA, WDP, and a few other companies. But no one went out of business to my knowledge. WDP won (to a point) in court so SP, WDP, and Dye now share the patent. Although I don't think Dye receives any royalities; they are just safe from being sued.

[PnueMagger]

As a preclude, I am a die hard AGD fan for the past DECADE. I do own an ION and do feel it's one of the best $150 dollars (other than my first 68Classic) I've ever spent. And I also wish small companies didn't have to go under. But I will not let favoritism block my perception of what happens around me.

Allright... So SP acts like most other corporate entities in the world -- they try to make money. Well guess what people, paintball is an industry and SP is a corporation. Just like AKA, WDP, WGP, AGD, [insert any other 3 letter acronym], etc. Quit your :cry:

No matter how you look at it, paintball is no longer a niche sport -- it is becoming a true sport. Thus, it takes more than niche companies to survive in a bigger pond. Sooner or later the big fish will find you. And like every true modern sport (Baseball for example), soon there will be three types of companies. The high quality brand name (EASTON, LOUISVILLE, WILSON), the companies producing for beginners (FRANKLIN, NIKE), and the fly by night trendy companies looking to secure a spot in one of the aformentioned categories (TAG, UNDERARMOUR, DIMARIO-sp?). I foresee the industry of paintball following the suit of most every sport that precluded it. Right now, all the companies are jockeying for a spot in the first two categories. Paintball needs to grow to survive. And when you wanna make an omlette you gotta scramble some eggs.

Just because SP is acting like a true corporation, and flourishing, doesn't mean people need to go around flaming them because their favorite company du jour isn't competing. If the Ironmen stepped on the field with your little rag-tag "tourney" team, would you complain that they muscled you around and wiped the floor with you. No. It's a competition and you were in the way of them reaching their goal (and yours) of winning the tournament. So when two companies compete, one will win and one will lose. If a team has the tape line secured, and all the lanes covered they control the outcome. Well, SP controls the legal stuff (for now) and thus will dictate the paintball market (for now). When their patent runs out, they will not be screwed. Your fooling yourselves.

Corporations and comercialization have historically fueled hundreds of markets and paved the way for them to become permanent. It is the principal that has made this country what it is today. Anyone argueing that commercialization is hurting paintball needs to go back to their cave and change the o'rings in their Stingray. Corporations are the best thing for the sport of paintball's survival. SP is powerful - they know it - you know it - they know you know it - they know that you know that they know that :tard: . If they wanted, they could really be some cocksuckers and go around targeting companyies one by one and bury them. They are not stupid, they are very smart (hence the name - Smart Parts :ninja: ) and know competition is necessary to keep paintball afloat. They've secured their spot and are defending it with a good offense. Either everyone else will need to sack-up (like WDP) or leave (like AKA). The majority of companies have chosen to sack-up. Thus, Paintball grows due to SP's business practices.

Everything in life is either growing or dieing. A sport that does not GROW will eventually DIE. (ie. -- look at AGD's stagnation. They're still kickin', but for how long?)

"Get busy livin', or get busy Diein'..." - Shawhank Redemption :rolleyes:

Now I'm going back to my cave to finish my term paper....And lube my Stingray. :ninja:

----------------------------------------------------------
EDIT: Futhermore, I find it rediculous that people get mad at SP because their high end gun is worth less. Smart Parts owes the market consumers nothing. Sure, graditude is a great thing, but not a necessity. There is no laws stating that corporations need to coddle their consumers.
[/lightbulb] On second thought, you're right. How 'bout SP sit back and says, "Oh S**t, Teamslayer76 just bought a new nerve for 1000+ dollars. Looks like we can't lower prices guys.

[LONEWOLFOO1]

I own a bushmaster 2000 in the year 2000 no eyes or any electronic gadgets i thought about upgradeing it with eyes and the latest gadgets but it will cost as much as a new ion. time breeds better products i am glad to see that. if i had 500 bucks and buy a gun now. i will defientle get more now than i did 6 years ago. would you pay 450 for a bushamaster 2000 that was made in 2000 in 2006 i don't think so.


so what to do now. i bought a tac one from agd why? not because of he latest gadgets but because of the warp feed frames and build quality. i mean this thing is a brick and i love it .agd does not need to change a thing after 6 years of buying my bushy i still bought a agd why because there a quality product the ion is that type of gun you give to guys that play once in the blue moon not weekend warriors like me. agd know what there doing and knows witch market there making markers for. you don't need to be popular to sell guns i personal see 6 new tac ones where i play now.

[Surestick]

Personally I think the Ion like most things has it's good & bad points.

-It has lowered the cost of high end markers (good for buyers, bad for sellers).
-It has brought the issue of over-shooting, ramping, & the dangers of handing a high-performance paintball marker to kids who might not have the maturity to handle it to a head (something we were going to have to deal with eventually).
-It is probably a positive thing for fields (higher ROF = more paint used = more $$ spent) but a negative for developing skills in new players (higher ROF = spray & pray = less skill needed).
-Smart Parts questionable business practices have hurt some companies but the Ion probably will help others. Look at all the after market parts being sold to replace the inexpensive stock parts on the Ion.

You'd have the same effect if a car company launched a $15k car that performed like a Ferrari. Accidents would go up, the cost of used Ferraris would plummet & most car enthusiasts would be happy. Insurance for now doesn't seem to factor into the Ion's effect on the paintball industry (keep your fingers crossed & your masks & barrel condoms on).
If the same car company patented fuel injection & sued all other companies using it we would all hate them but a lot of people would still buy their car & their product would have a huge effect on the industry. Business practices aside the effect would be positive (at least for enthusiasts) and those of us who play are all enthusiasts, no?

[RapidTransit]

http://www.actionmarkers.com/ <- I was gonna buy a marker from them.

Taken from - http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/paintguns/automag_faq.shtml#mod


# What modifications should I have done to my 'Mag?


An Automag, like an AutoCocker, is almost never found in professional or amateur tournaments without first having been highly modified inside and out.

SmartParts does all of the below mentioned modifications. You can also have your 'Mag worked on through Paintball Checkpoint [510-686-6249].

Some of the most common modifications:

* Drilled Regulator Body & On/Off Valve Modifications


The gun's regulator feeds an air chamber via two holes in the front of the regulator. This area is often drilled out with four or even eight holes. This increases the gun's ability to refill the air chamber during rapid fire. Without this modification, 'Mags tend to "starve" during rapid fire. The result being a velocity drop after several shots.

The On/Off valve also facilitates the transfer of CO2 from the regulator to the air chamber. A brass part in this assembly is often cut down to increase flow through the valve.

This mod costs about $80 and usually includes the Trigger Stop mod below.
* Trigger Stop


The stock Automag comes with one of the best triggers in the business. However some people improve on this by adding a stop that takes up the slack on the trigger, making it even crisper and easier to operate fast.
* SmartParts Magic Box


In late '93 SmartParts came up with a modification to the Automag that they claimed increased range by up to 15 yards. The modification was immediately controversial, with various rumors regarding its function, its performance, its legality in tournament play, and its safety all being questioned.

An initial review on the modification by Paintball Consumer Reports International was not favorable. The jury is still out on the modification's actual level of performance, but most people agree that using a low pressure, high volume mod like this *does* increase the gun's effective range.

The Magic Box mod costs about $150 through SmartParts.

Below are some extensive net.opinions on this modification.

"The black box essentially expands the air chamber capacity in
front of the on/off valve by about 50%. This allows the Mag to
use a greater volume of air at a lower pressure. The result is
that the gun is quieter and shoots farther at lower FPS. I shot
a lot of paint in rapid fire bursts the day I tried it out and
observed no spikes in velocity."
--Bruce (bru@cc.bellcore.com)

"First, let me quell the rumors that it will increase the
velocity in rapid fire beyond what the gun was chrono'ed at in
"single shot" mode. It don't see any way this mod could possibly
increase the velocity above the chrono'ed point unless the gun
sucked liquid. This mod should reduce the chance of sucking
liquid over the stock gun, however. It will reduce the
starvation (and thus velocity/range loss) that the automag
suffers from in rapid fire. In addition, the lower pressure
should result in a "smoother" push, so the accuracy at the same
velocity should increase.
[...]
Now to the "Magic Box". I would call it an expansion air
chamber, with a few unrelated mods thrown in for good measure.
It is a piece of aluminum, approximately 1.25*1.5*.5 inches. It
is hollowed out into two separate sections that *do not*
connect. Each of these sections attaches to the gun through a
standard 1/4" threaded fitting. The expansion chamber section
connects through a newly machined hole into the air chamber, in
line with the existing CO2 fitting in the valve body, which is
the other attachment point. The second section of the "magic
box" contains a replaceable CO2 filter element, held in place by
an O-ring. The CO2 to the gun flows through this part of the
magic box. Again, it does not connect to the expansion chamber.
The left side of the main body is machined to allow the expansion
air chamber to slide in."
--Dave Rotheroe (rotheroe@convex.com)

"[PCRI did evaluate the Magic Box mod]. I've got it in my hot
little hands now. Out of 4 stars, they gave it only 1 star.
They bench mounted the mag at 4 feet above the ground, and put a
piece of wood 20 feet away. This piece of wood had a hole cut in
it that was about 8 inches in diameters. When they shot the gun,
if the ball didn't go through the hole, then they didn't count
it. With each shot, they got the chrono speed, and measured
distance. Here is my "cheap chart":

Black Box on Mag Normal Mag
Speed |---------------------------------------
275-279fps | 130.5 feet | 125.5 feet
280-284fps | 132.2 feet | 130.8 feet
285-289fps | 133.0 feet | 129.0 feet
|---------------------------------------

So overall it increased about 4 feet or so. With the Magic Box
they ended up getting 161 shots out of 200 that fell between
275fps and 288fps (not 289, ok my typing sucks...:) And the
standard mag shot 175 out of 200 between 275fps and 288 fps. And
I'll use this quote to sum up this section: "The decrease in CO2
pressure hitting the paintball will definitely dimish ball
breakage in the gun, especially in temps below freezing when
paintballs are most fragile. Also, another by-product of the
lower pressure system is a slightly [in italics] slower moving
bolt. In a 10-second burst using the stock Automag we are able
to consistently fire 63 to 69 shots. Using the modified Automag
that number was reduced to 52 to 55." [Feb '94 PCRI page 21]
Conclusion of the Magic Box was that it didn't increase the
velocity, no safety problems were evident, "However, the Box does
not increase the range of the Automag by the advertised 15
yards." And you guys can see that. One Star for it."
--Rob Schneider (schneidr@csugrad.cs.vt.edu)

* Other Distance Enhancing Modifications


"[Paintball] Checkpoint very definitely does have their own version of this modification which Greg endearingly calls his 'distance enhancer' modification. It is basically a tap done into the air chamber, a 90 degree elbow and a custom drilled expansion tube that sits against the body of the gun rather than sticking straight out like the black box. At least as good as the SP mod and a whole lot cheaper! ... The modification lowers the pressure in the air chamber so the ball get's spiked less so ball breakage decreases. ... This definitely does *not* in any way raise the velocity of the gun."
--John D. Mitchell (johnm@cory.EECS.Berkeley.EDU)
* Airgun Designs on Modifications

"Other news, I was speaking to Sparky at AGD, and he basically said
that the 8 hole mod was basically useless since there is only one
hole leading to the on/off valve.
[...]
"Also a larger air chamber theoritcally should yield a slower
moving bolt. Since Force = Pressure * Area, a reduced pressure
will result in a reduced force on the bolt if the area of the power
tube piston remains the same. Then since Force = Mass *
Acceleration, the acceleration of the bolt will be less at the
instant the sear is released (i.e. the point at which the spring
counterforce is a minimum). Thus although the overall power is the
same, the time over which it happens may not be."
--cptung@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Charles P Tung)




SP not only made money off of peoples own ignorance (I don't mean it in a derogatory sense) but they are like SCO, lets buy someone elses engineering and hard work and then later as electros start proliferating lets sue everyone and their brother even though the mechanical/pneumatic differences are not even the same lets make it broad and twist the law. Strong Arm everyone so the market has no competition and manufacturer inferior products at a lower cost. Right now the Goverment has better things to do (Yeah sounds stupid eh?) Then to go after SP for unfair market advantages. Dealers may think SP is great with their MAP pricing and all but what they are more interested in is more Stores to proliferate in and gain support of the Owners because now they too are the backers and they think of everyone else as whiners. They don't care about the shop owner, if they have a chance they'd squash you too.

[PnueMagger]

SP not only made money off of peoples own ignorance ...
...They don't care about the shop owner, if they have a chance they'd squash you too.

1) Oh, for pete's sake. Like SP was the first company to ever misinform people. Remember the whole my cocker is closed bolt crap? Heck, the APG avertisements still quote budd orr saying "...blah blah they're most accurate marker in the world blah blah..."
Or howbout jacksparrow's claims that their mrker shoots further/flatter/whetever?
Or howbout rifled paintball barrels?

2) What an ignorant statement. For two reasons: FIRST, why would they crush shop owners who are the primary purchaser of their products. Shops/retailers buy most of SP inventory, not individual customers. SECOND, the have every opportunity to do so, they just choose not to. They could come out and sell at no profit directly from the factory and crush the shops along with most other companies like KINGMAN, BE, ICD, etc.

Do you you know why they don't this...BECAUSE THEY AREN'T TRYING TO RUIN PAINTBALL. I can hear all the ingnorant people right now, [/revelation] "OMG, SP not trying to ruin paintball, I've never heard that idea." You see, smartparts, just like evry other company, only wants paintball to grow. If paintball grows, manufacturers win -- especially SP. I'd be willing to bet a dime to a dollar that they got a few businessmen over there that know how markets work just so you don't have to give us your own rendition of a market analysis.

[RapidTransit]

1) Oh, for pete's sake. Like SP was the first company to ever misinform people. Remember the whole my cocker is closed bolt crap? Heck, the APG avertisements still quote budd orr saying "...blah blah they're most accurate marker in the world blah blah..."
Or howbout jacksparrow's claims that their mrker shoots further/flatter/whetever?
Or howbout rifled paintball barrels?

2) What an ignorant statement. For two reasons: FIRST, why would they crush shop owners who are the primary purchaser of their products. Shops/retailers buy most of SP inventory, not individual customers. SECOND, the have every opportunity to do so, they just choose not to. They could come out and sell at no profit directly from the factory and crush the shops along with most other companies like KINGMAN, BE, ICD, etc.

Do you you know why they don't this...BECAUSE THEY AREN'T TRYING TO RUIN PAINTBALL. I can hear all the ingnorant people right now, [/revelation] "OMG, SP not trying to ruin paintball, I've never heard that idea." You see, smartparts, just like evry other company, only wants paintball to grow. If paintball grows, manufacturers win -- especially SP. I'd be willing to bet a dime to a dollar that they got a few businessmen over there that know how markets work just so you don't have to give us your own rendition of a market analysis. If you read my statement. They are gaining backers by using MAP pricing... It has nothing to do with the bastardization of their brand. The retailers then will sign onto SP knowing the price protection = bigger margins for them, so what are they gonna try and sell you? I know this from expierience so don't tell me anything how such and such works because I work in an industry that has more BS than paintball has by 5 times. I could go on and write a 10 page essay of these market tactics because I know from expierence.

The funny part is the college educated when they get duped, seen it happens thousands of times :rofl: Theres another thing I could go on about, Business Degrees Americas biggest farse.

[PnueMagger]

Sorry, I jumped the gun!
or the record: It's not like I really endorse their buisness practices. They could continue making their products without have having sued All the smaller companies and we'd still have the same progress we have today. I just get annoyed with the countless posts of people wanting to burn SP for their practices and putting thier equipment down for it. I guess I just got fed up and snapped this morning. But I'm all better. :cool:

[superannuated]

Interesting thread.

The automobile industry analogy is useful for me. When enthusiasts run companies they tend not to grow too large unless the enthusiast evolves into a businessperson so that the operation grows into a major company (for better or worse, depending on your point of view). If the "big company" gets too far out of touch with what the consumer wants, it will run into trouble. (GM, for example).

In this context, I view my Ego as a modern race car, my E1 Cocker as an outdated modern racer, my mechanical Mags and Cocker as vintage racers that can be souped up, my 1999 B2K as an older racer that isn't worth souping up but can easily be driven around town, and my pump markers as classic-style racers.

The fact is that the largest group of U.S. buyers are looking for something like a Toyota Camry or a Ford Ranger. We paintball enthusiasts who follow the tournament circuit or the scenario game scene or whatever will continue to want the latest and greatest stuff and some of us will be willing to pay for it. However, Toyota makes a heck of a lot more money from the Camry than VW does from their Bentley supercar. Obviously, that's because most drivers aren't hard-core enthusiasts willing to spend big buck for their wheels.

I feel that is why the Ion is a positive innovation. It provides a lot of performance for a lot less money than the super guns. Sure, it's easy for a Porsche Carrera 4 owner to look down his nose at a Subaru WRX, but the Subaru offers a lot of bang for the buck, and a good driver in a WRX can beat a mediocre one in a Carrera in a road race.

So, cursing SP for the ION is like cursing a leopard for its spots. SP is a good-sized business and is acting like one. Also, cursing SP for its patent lawsuits is an exercise in futility. Let the courts sort that out; that's their job-and we still have a judicial system that's about as good as any in the world, and much better than most.

I suggest that we all go out and play paintball this weekend so we don't wind up like that Carrera driver.

Regards,

Superannuated

[LONEWOLFOO1]

In this context, I view my Ego as a modern race car, my E1 Cocker as an outdated modern racer, my mechanical Mags and Cocker as vintage racers that can be souped up, my 1999 B2K as an older racer that isn't worth souping up but can easily be driven around town, and my pump markers as classic-style racers

Thats excatly how i feel i thought about upgrading my b2k but found out it was cheaper to get a ion. its a great back up for my tac one. i use a qloader now so the gun has really lost it purpose. i wonder if the ion would make left feed and right feed frames? then i would buy one but since i have working guns i don't need or want a ion just yet. sp needs to make a better reg for there gun though.

[Steelrat]

Sorry, I jumped the gun!
or the record: It's not like I really endorse their buisness practices. They could continue making their products without have having sued All the smaller companies and we'd still have the same progress we have today. I just get annoyed with the countless posts of people wanting to burn SP for their practices and putting thier equipment down for it. I guess I just got fed up and snapped this morning. But I'm all better. :cool:

Their equipment is okay, from what I've read they use crappy aluminum for their parts, and their tolerances aren't the tightest, but their products seem to work fine. However, their business practices have been so questionalbe/deplorable that I refuse to purchase anything they make. THAT is why people get so upset about SP.

[Steelrat]

So, cursing SP for the ION is like cursing a leopard for its spots. SP is a good-sized business and is acting like one. Also, cursing SP for its patent lawsuits is an exercise in futility. Let the courts sort that out; that's their job-and we still have a judicial system that's about as good as any in the world, and much better than most.


You must be kidding. The owners of SP have lawyers that are members of their family, and more resources than small companies. How is the little guy supposed to fight something like that. Our legal system is OKAY, but if you have any sort of first-hand experience with the judicial system at all, you will know that it favors those with the most money.

[deathstalker]

That's a good point that is difficult to argue with, but keep in mind these lawyers, though family, aren't working pro bono. Smart Parts still needs to pay them, just like any other company has to pay their lawyers. That's pretty much all I can say about that. :)

[Lohman446]

http://www.actionmarkers.com/ <- I was gonna buy a marker from them.

Taken from - http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/paintguns/automag_faq.shtml#mod


SP not only made money off of peoples own ignorance (I don't mean it in a derogatory sense) but they are like SCO, lets buy someone elses engineering and hard work and then later as electros start proliferating lets sue everyone and their brother even though the mechanical/pneumatic differences are not even the same lets make it broad and twist the law. Strong Arm everyone so the market has no competition and manufacturer inferior products at a lower cost. Right now the Goverment has better things to do (Yeah sounds stupid eh?) Then to go after SP for unfair market advantages. Dealers may think SP is great with their MAP pricing and all but what they are more interested in is more Stores to proliferate in and gain support of the Owners because now they too are the backers and they think of everyone else as whiners. They don't care about the shop owner, if they have a chance they'd squash you too.

I bolded the key word. Who else stepped up and helped out companies that needed the money, or individualsl ooking to get something out of there work?

[Steelrat]

That's a good point that is difficult to argue with, but keep in mind these lawyers, though family, aren't working pro bono. Smart Parts still needs to pay them, just like any other company has to pay their lawyers. That's pretty much all I can say about that. :)

You really think it costs the same to use your own family to do legal work?

[superannuated]

Steelrat:

Nope, I'm not kidding.

I know that I'm not well enough versed in patent law and the facts of the proceedings to intelligently debate the merits of SP's lawsuits. However anyone sued by SP had choices: they could have hired counsel (on spec if necessary) and litigated or chosen to negotiate a settlement, stop the alleged patent infringement, or close their doors. I know that at least one small paintball firm chose to close down rather than fight SP. However, this still doesn't speak to the merits of SP's suit or their right to file it. The point is that we could debate this until the cows come home and it still wouldn't make any difference in the outcome.

The fact remains that while our judicial system does sometimes favor the large, well-monied corporation with platoons of attorneys, it also sometimes favors the little guy with a legitimate case. The point is that in order to do something about this, it takes more than grousing on this forum to change things - something like starting a major grass-roots campaign for judicial reform, running for political office, or going to law school and then working pro bono for the little guy, etc.

Yes, our judicial system is imperfect (all of man's institutions are), but I would still rather be the little guy in a lawsuit in the U.S. rather than any other country in the world.

Regards,

Superannuated