To call or leave it to refs?

[ABTOCMEPTb]

Sometime when I play and feel that I got hit I call myself out just to find out that ball actualy bounced without breaking. Its pretty amazing sometime that impact can be so painfull but paintball actually didnt break.

I read alot on forums that people do use lucky bounces and dont call them selfs out so what is the right thing to do? Should I continue being honest or should I let reffery to do their job and wait till they tell me that I was hit?

[marpat]

Sometime when I play and feel that I got hit I call myself out just to find out that ball actualy bounced without breaking. Its pretty amazing sometime that impact can be so painfull but paintball actually didnt break.

I read alot on forums that people do use lucky bounces and dont call them selfs out so what is the right thing to do? Should I continue being honest or should I let reffery to do their job and wait till they tell me that I was hit?


I thought in the general understanding of paintball it requires a paintball to break on you or a part of your equipment to be considered called out.

I myself go by the above rule. if you have lucky bounces then so be it. if i'm the one shooting you and you have bounces then i'll just shoot you till one breaks :D

my 2 cents.

[Lohman446]

PSP/NPPL rules clearly state you are responsible for any hit except for hits to the back of your pack (behind your hips) or to the outside of your hopper (refs discretion). If you are playing with a break to any other area the refs are fully justified to call you for a penalty.

In rec ball if I can see it I check, if I can't see it and think it might have bounced I call, if I think it broke I call myself.

[shartley]

If you think you are out, call yourself out. If you are not sure, call a ref to verify. It seems pretty simple to me.

If you think you are out and call yourself out, you are out, even if you find out later that the ball did not break. It is the same thing as surrendering in that aspect.

So I guess it is simply a call you have to make at the time.

[Sniper1]

I snipe allot and as a sniper you must be an honest player in order to avoid conflict. You must not allow others to cheat in my presence. I have my own set of rules of conduct that i live by when i play but in short my list is simple

• Do not cheat or tolerate those who do!
• Do not accept unfair help from the referees.
• Do not argue a bad call, yet do make a effort to show your point calmly.
• Call yourself out without needing a ref to do it.
• Call a paint-check on yourself when in doubt and then move.
• Do not tolerate unfair actions that benefit you or others.
• Don’t call for paint checks unless it is critical.
• Do not allow yourself or other players to endanger other players.

You really have to let others know that you are a fair player. It is important as if you are not even suspected of not calling yourself out when you should. Being that I snipe i play with a Ghillie and Many people will believe that the Gillie hides hits, it does not. They will say it cushions the hits, it does not. At times you might be hit in the ammo pack under the suit and you don't feel it, that is one thing but im quick to call a paint check on my self even tough i might have given away my position to other players.

When you do this you demonstrate to all you are fair player and the referees will back you up. If you get called out and there is room for error don't argue but understand what the referee’s position might be. I had a almost complete shell fall on me after the paintball hit the plywood bunker I was in. A referee ran over and saw the shell in my cammo and called me out. I showed the ref without yelling where the ball on the board had hit. It was as plain as day and still dripping wet on the board. But I got up and left the field there was not a spot of paint on me. I know in his mind he was grateful I did not scream and rant about what a lousy ref he was. I would have been right but to what end. Remember you will need them at times to work with you not against you and they can do things that work against you.

There will come a time when you will run into players screaming "I got you! I got you!" when they in fact did not. If other players have played alongside you and know that you don't cheat. That player can scream all he wants and no one will believe him as your reputation will precede you. When I play some refs won't do a paint-check on me if I can tell them it did not hit me as they know I would get up if I were hit. I cherished that trust as it can only help.

I have my fair share of horror stories with every thing there the good the bad and the ugly. But if you follow a good rule of conduct even if you walk off even if you are not out but up for dispute you gain the respect of players and the staff.

[evildead420]

i usually ask a teammate close by and ask if i got hit. i usually dont have time to check myself when i still got paint flinging towards me. so its up to them to lmk. but if i do get hit, ill call it anyway, ref or just if i know :cool: i think that makes sence

[ThePixelGuru]

If I feel a hit, I look to see if it broke, and if it did I call myself out. If it's a bounce, I keep playing. Eliminations come from _marking_ your opponents. If it hits somewhere I can't see, what I do depends on where I'm playing. If it's somewhere people know me as an honest player or trust people to be honest, I swipe my hand across it, look for paint and shell and call myself out if I see it. If it's somewhere where people don't know I'm not a cheater, I'll call a paint check. Don't want to look like I'm wiping when I'm just checking to see if I'm hit.

[magsRus]

Here is my view..

When I'm playing at a tournment those Ref's are either A. Getting paid to be there B. Getting free paint to be there or C. volunteering for some reason. If I get hit and I feel it I will quickly and I mean quickly scan the part of my body that I got hit in. If I get hit in the back I keep playing. I cant see my back, but the ref can so he can call me out. I have never and will never call for a paint check. I think arguing with a ref is pretty stupid because in most cases they just pull another one of your players till you go to your dead box and shut up. So for those haters out there that may say "i play on" i'm not playing on, i'm just not going to take the 20 seconds to look all over my body for a hit that I really dont want to see, I will check, but im talking about a second or two glance. let the ref do his job, i already did my part by glancing around my body.

[68magOwner]

dont necessarily call yourself out as soon as you feel a hit, but, dont sit there and keep playing till a ref pulls you, if you cant tell if a ball broke or not, check it, just touch where you were hit, then look at your fingers for paint, its not too tricky.

[Lohman446]

Here is my view..

When I'm playing at a tournment those Ref's are either A. Getting paid to be there B. Getting free paint to be there or C. volunteering for some reason. If I get hit and I feel it I will quickly and I mean quickly scan the part of my body that I got hit in. If I get hit in the back I keep playing. I cant see my back, but the ref can so he can call me out. I have never and will never call for a paint check. I think arguing with a ref is pretty stupid because in most cases they just pull another one of your players till you go to your dead box and shut up. So for those haters out there that may say "i play on" i'm not playing on, i'm just not going to take the 20 seconds to look all over my body for a hit that I really dont want to see, I will check, but im talking about a second or two glance. let the ref do his job, i already did my part by glancing around my body.

So you have justified cheating? The rules (PSP/ NPPL) are very clear that it is not the refs job to call you out on a hit but to penalize you if you do not call yourself out. I do it to, I call it what it is, its cheating. No grey area, the rules are black and white. Yes, you are playing on, its what the rules say.

[Cow hunter]

if its an obvious break, i call myself out, or ill touch the are with my fingers to see i im out. if im not sure (the hit is in an area i cant touch easily i.e. my back), ill call the ref over for a paint check while i continue to play. as per the rules you are a neutral player if the ref is withing touching distance of you

[Lohman446]

if its an obvious break, i call myself out, or ill touch the are with my fingers to see i im out. if im not sure (the hit is in an area i cant touch easily i.e. my back), ill call the ref over for a paint check while i continue to play. as per the rules you are a neutral player if the ref is withing touching distance of you


Define neutral player. And not having my copy of the rules right in front of me... where is that? I've stood at the field before and quoted PSP rules that don't exist to other pretty veteran tournament players - be amazed how many have seemingly never actually read the rules.

[Sniper1]

well on that note... Like in anything else there is the Good, the Bad and the Ugly. To apply good code of conduct understanding what a referee should be able to do and how the mind set of a refere is a must.

The GOOD is when a field has older refs who are making good money and they are players themselves and then go out of their way for your enjoyment. Know the INS and OUTS of the game. Don’t cheat shadow or ghost a referee. They have equipment on them to help players. Carry first aid kits, radios, and know what is going on at all times.

The BAD is when a field is unorganized and the people there have no sense that this is a business as well as a fun sport. The referees are only there to get paint for when they play. If your game starts on time is more by luck than design. Disorganization is long lines that move slowly or opening late, referees zipping around on ATV's at full speed, Medical Gauze used as a tape line (I have seen this). Refs that don't have radio's or whistles, lousy paint that flies in circles.. There is a river canoe company that thought it would be nice to have paintball field. It gets worse, I didn't even cover the major safety violations, but you get the picture.

The UGLY is when you have owners that get the cheapest help they can get and who may not even play paintball or very young kids who get paid by store credit and have an attitude like they are letting you play on their field, plus all of the bad above.

SO granted there are problems but in the case of MagsRus over there that would fall under BAD CONDUCT of play. If i felt a hit in the back and was preety sure it broke id walk off regardless. If i was unsure of a hit or break id call a paintcheck and i do this sparingly and rarely. But i feel that magsRus has been exposed to the bad and ugly and this is why he has this mind set.

Do not get me wrong Refs can do alot to help you out or kill your game. At this poitn ive seen it all.

Shadowing or Ghosting the player
Excessive or Unneeded Paint Checks
Referees Helping Buddies
Ignoring your Paint Check

And so on. But you will not gian the trust or respect of players or the staff if you do not apply a code of conduct and ethics and unfortunetly magsRus needs to re-evaluate his playing conduct and realize that there is a good not just a bad and ugly. No matter how bad a ref may be it will NEVER make things better if you do not make a stride and show a exceptional level of conduct to other players and the staff.

As a sniper you should hardly ever call for a paint check and thus the reason I do not very often. Usually when you have someone in the cross hairs you will know you got them. If they don't call themselves out I simply line them up again and pick a better spot they are more likely to really feel it, I was at a West Point game once and a laying in a spot just off the tape line in a open area. There were three trees not 20 feet from me. As players came to the trees I would shoot them one at a time. One player got there and I put the scope on his shoulder as he was wearing a large patch that was a good target. I hit him right on it. Without looking in my direction or even realizing I was so close. I was deep in his side of the field so maybe he thought it was friendly fire. He just reached over and wiped it right off!!! I have never seen anyone do that yet of course it happens all the time but I never had seen it so clearly. Well I merely reloaded and then fired into the side of his head. At that moment he got the message and walked off the field.

[BigEvil]

If your not sure if a ball broke, call a paintcheck on yourself.

[PnueMagger]

you know what I hate, When you're shoting and your gun gets hit, and you don't realize it. Happened to me once. I must've unloaded another 100 shots before I went to reload and saw my gun got lit up like a christmas tree. I then walked off the field.

[Lohman446]

On the break I turn and lane, walking towards my bunker. I feel a hit on the center of my chest, continue walking to my bunker shooting the lane I was holding. Once there I stopped and looked down. Now, nothing broke, I was clean.

I made a decision when I did it to continue to my bunker and influence the outcome of the game by "playing until a ref said something". In this case no paint no foul. Had there been paint? Yes I should have been gone, so should one of my teammates. It was a conscious decision that the risk was worth the reward.

Was it cheating? Is intentionally fouling someone in basketball to stop the clock cheating? I aksed what cheating was in another thread. An answer I received was breaking the rules with dishonest intent and I liked it. No dishonest intent there, had I been hit the penalty would have been warranted. Now, do I like it because I can now freely break the rules as long as I don't try to do it dishonestly and not call myself cheating?

[marpat]

Define neutral player. And not having my copy of the rules right in front of me... where is that? I've stood at the field before and quoted PSP rules that don't exist to other pretty veteran tournament players - be amazed how many have seemingly never actually read the rules.


well here in NJ at the Skirmish PA fields when you are riding to the field they have a small information speech for you on safety etc. etc. their field rule is that if you call paintcheck and the ref is near you and checks you, the opponent player is required not to shoot at the one who called paintcheck therefore the ref is calling that person "neutral"

so i would think it's pretty much whatever your field has for rules your abide by them. I've played on several fields and the rules are different for each field. some allow you to play on through gun hits, some don't count shots below the knees or from the hands to elbow.

but generally speaking here is the NPPL rules on paintchecks as of 3/1/2005

10.05 Paint Checks. Paint checks are performed by Referees for the purpose of
determining if a paintball has broken on and marked a player. Paint checks are performed by a
Referee when the Referee has observed a player taking shots, or when shots are directed into an
area occupied by a player that the Referee cannot directly observe, when the physical location
that a paintball may have broken on is not visible to the Referee, or when the Referee is directed
to do so by another Referee.
(1) Player Requested Paint Checks. Referees may, but are not obligated to,
perform a paint check after a player has requested one.

(2) Neutrality. A Referee calling a player neutral will indicate the same to all
players on the field by standing over the player, shouting, “Neutral”, and
holding his/her arm above his/her head and waving a towel overhead and
shouting neutral. Referees will make every effort to perform a paint check
without calling a player neutral. However, a Referee, at his/her discretion,
may declare a player neutral. A player declared neutral cannot be eliminated
from the game or moved on, either by opposing team members or his/her
own teammates, while in the state of neutrality. A Referee may move a
15 © 2005 National Professional Paintball League, Inc.
neutral player’s equipment and or request that such player expose additional
areas for examination. Players not declared neutral may be eliminated while
being checked.

(3) Flag Carriers. No flag carrier will ever be stopped and declared neutral for
the purposes of performing a paint check.

(4) Easily Verifiable. Players, who are hit in obvious locations, which are easily
verifiable, by such players may not call for a paint check. Calling for a paint
check under such circumstances constitutes continuing to play on. (See rule
19.03 (1))

[Lohman446]

as per the rules you are a neutral player if the ref is withing touching distance of you

So this statement is not supported by either PSP or NPPL (I know its not in PSP, I do study those rules pretty close as I tend to play under them). Perhaps they are a local rule in many places though as you have pointed out at least in some.

[Sniper1]

Dont talk to me about skirmish... they are on my list of UGLY

-edit-
in fact they are the role models for ugly last sevral times I was there...

[stop whining buy a mag]

I look when I get a chance. When I'm playing in a tournament and they have twice the number of refs to players, they can earn their $8.50/hour by checking me. It's really pretty obvious. I usually see that spray of paint that comes up quickly. Hopper, pack, leg shots are really up to the ref as I can only barely feel my legs when running and gunning.

But I am nice enough to call out when I get gogged. It's hard to argue out of that one.

[Lohman446]

I look when I get a chance. When I'm playing in a tournament and they have twice the number of refs to players, they can earn their $8.50/hour by checking me. It's really pretty obvious. I usually see that spray of paint that comes up quickly. Hopper, pack, leg shots are really up to the ref as I can only barely feel my legs when running and gunning.

But I am nice enough to call out when I get gogged. It's hard to argue out of that one.

So you cheat?

[stop whining buy a mag]

Yes.

During the course of the game it is not my responsibility to check over my entire body if I think I could have been hit. If I can blatantly see it, I call out. If it is anywhere else and even slightly questionable, I leave it up to the ref to decide. The rules we play by (PSP) state that it is out responsibility to check ourselves but it is widely accepted that anything questionable is the refs job when you are playing for cash. If I had to truley define a cheater in this category, it would be someone who keeps playing after blatantly knowing and even acknowledging they have been hit. Those people get me frustrated but if you can hit them once you can probably do it again.

Rec games are completely different. The field I play at has a drastic difference in skill level. I could take my pants off to check myself and probably still get back in the game without getting close to hit.

[Lohman446]

Yes.

During the course of the game it is not my responsibility to check over my entire body if I think I could have been hit. If I can blatantly see it, I call out. If it is anywhere else and even slightly questionable, I leave it up to the ref to decide. The rules we play by (PSP) state that it is out responsibility to check ourselves but it is widely accepted that anything questionable is the refs job when you are playing for cash. If I had to truley define a cheater in this category, it would be someone who keeps playing after blatantly knowing and even acknowledging they have been hit. Those people get me frustrated but if you can hit them once you can probably do it again.

Rec games are completely different. The field I play at has a drastic difference in skill level. I could take my pants off to check myself and probably still get back in the game without getting close to hit.


What rules you play under?


An obvious hit is any valid hit the receiving player should have seen, heard or felt, including any valid hit anywhere on the player’s body. A player with an obvious hit is eliminated.


It is the player’s responsibility to call themselves out when they have an obvious hit. It is the ref’s job to penalize players who continue to play with an obvious hit, so if you call a ref over to check a hit you could have checked yourself, expect a penalty too.


If it hits the hopper and sprays on your goggles, it’s obvious. If it smacks into your earflap, it’s obvious. If it makes a loud “ting” on your tank, it’s obvious. If it hits your facemask and sprays paint on your face, it’s obvious. If it hits your elbow pad that is 2” thick and you didn’t feel it, it’s still obvious – players should not wear padding so thick that they cannot feel hits. If it hits your shoe, glove, leg, cup, belt of your pack, neoprene neck protector, or hat, it’s obvious. If it grazes off the side of your hopper where you can’t see the hit or it’s in your pack then it may not be obvious if the judge does not have any reason to believe you should know a paintball hit you there.

If you define cheating as a rule violation then yeh, your cheating (at least by PSP rules). Now if you require it be with dishonest intent... maybe not

[Stealthed_Banana]

I snipe allot and as a sniper you must be an honest player in order to avoid conflict. You must not allow others to cheat in my presence. I have my own set of rules of conduct that i live by when i play but in short my list is simple

• Do not cheat or tolerate those who do!
• Do not accept unfair help from the referees.
• Do not argue a bad call, yet do make a effort to show your point calmly.
• Call yourself out without needing a ref to do it.
• Call a paint-check on yourself when in doubt and then move.
• Do not tolerate unfair actions that benefit you or others.
• Don’t call for paint checks unless it is critical.
• Do not allow yourself or other players to endanger other players.

You really have to let others know that you are a fair player. It is important as if you are not even suspected of not calling yourself out when you should. Being that I snipe i play with a Ghillie and Many people will believe that the Gillie hides hits, it does not. They will say it cushions the hits, it does not. At times you might be hit in the ammo pack under the suit and you don't feel it, that is one thing but im quick to call a paint check on my self even tough i might have given away my position to other players.

When you do this you demonstrate to all you are fair player and the referees will back you up. If you get called out and there is room for error don't argue but understand what the referee’s position might be. I had a almost complete shell fall on me after the paintball hit the plywood bunker I was in. A referee ran over and saw the shell in my cammo and called me out. I showed the ref without yelling where the ball on the board had hit. It was as plain as day and still dripping wet on the board. But I got up and left the field there was not a spot of paint on me. I know in his mind he was grateful I did not scream and rant about what a lousy ref he was. I would have been right but to what end. Remember you will need them at times to work with you not against you and they can do things that work against you.

There will come a time when you will run into players screaming "I got you! I got you!" when they in fact did not. If other players have played alongside you and know that you don't cheat. That player can scream all he wants and no one will believe him as your reputation will precede you. When I play some refs won't do a paint-check on me if I can tell them it did not hit me as they know I would get up if I were hit. I cherished that trust as it can only help.

I have my fair share of horror stories with every thing there the good the bad and the ugly. But if you follow a good rule of conduct even if you walk off even if you are not out but up for dispute you gain the respect of players and the staff.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v36/StaticKnight/iChatImage71O.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v36/StaticKnight/iChatImageGKi.jpg

[Cow hunter]

So this statement is not supported by either PSP or NPPL (I know its not in PSP, I do study those rules pretty close as I tend to play under them). Perhaps they are a local rule in many places though as you have pointed out at least in some.
straigtht from the rulebook


7.3 Neutral Paintchecks: A judge will perform a “neutral” paintcheck if, in the performance of the check, he will expose the player to hits or interfere with normal game activity. A player becomes neutral only when a judge gets close enough to touch the player, tells the player he is neutral, and signals the player’s neutrality to the rest of the field. A player who calls for a paintcheck on himself remains in play unless and until a judge performs a “neutral” paintcheck on him.

http://warpig.com/paintball/tournament/rulebook.shtml

[stop whining buy a mag]

What rules you play under?







If you define cheating as a rule violation then yeh, your cheating (at least by PSP rules). Now if you require it be with dishonest intent... maybe not

I think the whole thing comes down to how you define an obvious hit. The PSP defines it as anywhere except your pack to make it easier for the refs to call playing on penalties. I'll continue cheating because it works well for me. Instead of calling myself out on what could be a bounce and then taking 7 to the back, I'll let a ref (who's probably 3 feet away from me) pull my armband if he sees the break. That way I'm less likely to take some as I'm walking out. I've found that most people will shoot until they can definitely see a dead player is out of the bunker or if a ref is over there pulling the armband. If they see the armband pulled you probably won't get a single extra a shot.

[REDRT]

If I feel a hit and I don't see paint I'm playing on until a ref tells me different. If I see paint then I call myself out. If I get shot up pretty good and nothing broke, but I hadn't any recoarse ( meaning I'm screwed) I'll call myself out.

[Lohman446]

straigtht from the rulebook

A ref merely being within touching distance does not make one neutral.

[REDRT]

as per the rules you are a neutral player if the ref is withing touching distance of you

In that distance if the ref is in my way he is far game to be shot to.

[hitech]

straigtht from the rulebook



http://warpig.com/paintball/tournament/rulebook.shtml


7.3 Neutral Paintchecks: A judge will perform a “neutral” paintcheck if, in the performance of the check, he will expose the player to hits or interfere with normal game activity. A player becomes neutral only when a judge gets close enough to touch the player, tells the player he is neutral, and signals the player’s neutrality to the rest of the field. A player who calls for a paintcheck on himself remains in play unless and until a judge performs a “neutral” paintcheck on him.

[Lee]

now understand please, that i'm not a super ref, but, i have reffed NPPL and NCPA a few times. and frankly, anyone that thinks neutrality is a viable option is incorrect. there simply is no time in game conditions to call a player neutral, perform the check and then indicate players live status.
we get as close to them as needed: wrap around them, get between them and the bunker, look over thier shoulders and chase them down but we do not cause them to shift position unless absolutely unavoidable. we are taught to tell them to "keep playing" until we either clear them or pull them.

you have 10-14 players many of whom will take advantage of whatever they can to gain an edge ( including shooting YOU to creat distraction), a good sized are to cover with 6-7 refs who may not be in thier zones depending on what they see with 5-7 minutes and 60 + games in a 12 to 14 hour day in which you'll take hundreds of hits.
not to mention the in and post game biotching you get from the sideliners who swear you made a bad call.

the closest thing to neutrality (NPPL anyways) is when the flag carrier gets to the hang and the game is halted for the player to be checked. and this is regardless of what the rules say. i'm telling you what happens in a game and the way we are told to ref.

imho, calling neutrality could be seen as a game changing event which the losing team would almost certainly try to use to thier advantage post game.