Borg > Viking or vice versa?

[SpecialBlend2786]

Just want opinions and stuff. I know there are many Viking fans on AO, and personally I love Borgs. I was just wondering (since i apparently don't know jack about Vikings) what an 04 Tadao's viking would have over a partially upped 05 Cyborg?

So far I can list better electronics due to Tadao, but there's a Tadao board out for Borgs as well...

Efficiency might go to the Viking as well, but I'm not sure. Also I like the fact that Vikings don't use hosing but have the passages drilled out.

Basically I really want a Viking but my brain is struggling to come up with a reason for it to be better than a Cyborg.

OPINIONS PLEASE

And I promise this will be my last vs thread in ever. superpromise :(

[Cow hunter]

well ive had expierence around vikings (friend owns a full mill '04 and one of the original highlanders) and i must say they are darn near perfection, a full case or more off a 68/45 is hard to beat, and with the tadao it has great software, but the borg does look a tad more interesting, and after seeing the milled one i must say it was one of the nicest looking markers ive seen.... they are a great comparison, pretty even on all standards....

[rkjunior303]

They call Vikings Stacked tubed Borgs for a reason.

Either one is a great buy. I prefer my borg over the viking I had, due to the size (even my DC viking).

[slade]

borgs are better.

vikings are huge, and dont really have any clear advantage over a borg.

[SpecialBlend2786]

They call Vikings Stacked tubed Borgs for a reason.

Either one is a great buy. I prefer my borg over the viking I had, due to the size (even my DC viking).

Was the size the only issue? I'm guessing due to your first comment that everything else is basically the same. I always thought of Vikings being similar to Angels because of the arrangment of the tubes (of course, the noid isn't right behind the bolt like in an angel).

Also I forgot to add this: I'm going to force myself to actually hold on to this gun, so it will be the last marker I get for a good long while.

[CoolHand]

Unless you get a first gen Cyborg, the Viking will be cheaper.

They will run forever too, i've got an '03 which is approaching 100 cases while in my possesion, and it was WELL used before I bought it. Still sings like a teeny bopper.

Also, on the '05 and older borgs, the trigger geometry sucks. IMO the feel was horrible. I haven't handled a new one though, so I can't say if they fixed it or not.

[rkjunior303]

Unless you get a first gen Cyborg, the Viking will be cheaper.

They will run forever too, i've got an '03 which is approaching 100 cases while in my possesion, and it was WELL used before I bought it. Still sings like a teeny bopper.

Also, on the '05 and older borgs, the trigger geometry sucks. IMO the feel was horrible. I haven't handled a new one though, so I can't say if they fixed it or not.

Coolhand, I thought the same thing until DC removed the internal stop at the top of the trigger -- it totally changed how the trigger felt.

Borg's are stacked-tubed vikings, rather. I screwed up what I was saying -- but honestly, they both are great markers made by great companies.

[paint magnet]

I liked the way my Viking shot a whole lot better than a Borg (this was in 04 though). The thing was damn near bulletproof and shot darts all day long.

The only disadvantage IMO is that they're discontinued.

[WenULiVeUdiE]

Some advantages over 05 'Borgs are:
No hosing - You no longer have to worry about proper hose alignment, which can interfere with the trigger.
Trigger Geometry- Aka's 45 frame is one of the best ever produced. Way past that of the 05 Cyborg.
Maintenance- Although this is not a big one, it is still valid. Viking requires 3 drops of oil before every day of play. An 05 Borg requires alittle more. Lube the ram and some tri-flow on the bolt, which is not hard.

You can't go wrong. Go with what is cheaper, which is the Viking.

[slade]

Coolhand, I thought the same thing until DC removed the internal stop at the top of the trigger -- it totally changed how the trigger felt.
what exactly did DC remove?

my trigger is fine, but i actually loved the feel of marc's... then again, his wasnt exactly legal.

[rkjunior303]

what exactly did DC remove?

my trigger is fine, but i actually loved the feel of marc's... then again, his wasnt exactly legal.

there's a stop for the forward travel. DC changed that up.

[slade]

there's a stop for the forward travel. DC changed that up.
? oh well, on my trigger the forward stop is limited by the trigger itself, you'd need to file or mill the trigger to change it.

[slade]

Some advantages over 05 'Borgs are:
No hosing - You no longer have to worry about proper hose alignment, which can interfere with the trigger.
Trigger Geometry- Aka's 45 frame is one of the best ever produced. Way past that of the 05 Cyborg.
Maintenance- Although this is not a big one, it is still valid. Viking rewuires 3 drops of oil before every day of play. An 05 Borg requires alittle more. Lube the ram and some tri-flow on the bolt, which is not hard.

You can't go wrong. Go with what is cheaper, which is the Viking.
you play back, i take it?

[WenULiVeUdiE]

you play back, i take it?

Well, when I bought the Viking I did. However, according to my team I am going to be playing front this season.

[punkncat]

Also I forgot to add this: I'm going to force myself to actually hold on to this gun, so it will be the last marker I get for a good long while.


Hey....GOOD LUCK with that one. As one gun whore to another !!!!!! :headbang:

[SpecialBlend2786]

Hey....GOOD LUCK with that one. As one gun whore to another !!!!!! :headbang:

LOL. You know you're bad when you start selling markers before you even get a chance to use em :(

As for prices, the ones I am looking at are pretty much the same price, which is around $500. Borg is an 05, comes with a rebuild kit, tons of triggers, sonic internals, new delrin manifold, 14" stiffi, CCM feedneck etc. Looks like it's in great condition.

Viking comes with Tadao, new grips, two triggers, feedneck and some other stuff.

If they were different prices I would have just gone with the cheaper one and not looked back i bet....

I like the fact that the Viking has no hosing, I like that alot.

Both are nice and easy to clean, which is a must for me because I tend to get gun hits alot cause I'm retarded.

Coolhand, is that the Viking that you've put the ungodly amout of paint through or a borg?

[CoolHand]

Viking.

I've got three now. lol So, you can see I like them.

The only borg I've handled was one that came in for ano. I got to take it all apart and futz around with it. They are nice markers, but like I said, I can't stand the trigger feel of that '04. I never shot it, I just reassembled it and sent it back to it's owner when ano was finished.

Weight wise, the Borg was lighter than an unmilled '03, but NOT lighter than my Featherlight '03.

Either way, you're not getting hosed. Pick which one you like the look of better, or which one feels best in your hands.

You're gonna have nay sayers, no matter which one you choose. Just make sure the choice pleases you.

Also, about the Viking, make sure it doesn't have a MAC solenoid. I actually like the MAC's better, but spares are getting very hard to come by, and AKA wants like $300 to convert it over to use a Humphrey. If it has a Humphrey 'noid, have no fear at all. If it has a MAC 'noid, try to pay a little less for it. lol

If it's an '04, it has a Humphrey for sure.

That is all. :cheers:

[jenarelJAM]

I haven't handled a 'borg, but I really like my viking. Two and a half cases of paint + about 2 more cases of reballs(worth), and it's used. No problems other than my mistake, setting the lpr too low. Basicly, it will perform up to its advertised standards no problem, all day long. Then you get into the whole "feel" thing, so try them out.

Personally, I'd rather keep my viking than trade it straight over for a 'borg that I know nothing about. Even an 06. That may tell you something...

Coolhand, what are your feelings on the excal? since you seem to really like aka. I'm curious about them, if they really are 'buttery smooth'

[CoolHand]

They are smooth, but they're also heavier, have twice as many moving parts, and need to be timed correctly to function to their fullest potential. They are also more expensive.

Some folks just like a closed bolt marker better. No reason I suppose, just what they like. Not that big of a deal, but I've never seen a reason to make a nearly perfect system more complex.

They are just as reliable though. Mostly preference I'd say.

[ABTOCMEPTb]

Viking gives you more options for creativity. You can get it stock very cheap and start to mill, annodize, upgrade it all you want untill you spend around $1000 and end up with a great custom marker. So if you got time and willing to wait go for it.

Cyborg 06 is fully upgraded out of the box. You dont need any board since 06 got all modes. Very low maintanace. No milling is needed since its already 1.8 lb without barrel.

As of performance I can only judge Cyborgs. I got two and I cant say a single bad word about either one.

[slade]

Viking gives you more options for creativity. You can get it stock very cheap and start to mill, annodize, upgrade it all you want untill you spend around $1000 and end up with a great custom marker. So if you got time and willing to wait go for it.

Cyborg 06 is fully upgraded out of the box. You dont need any board since 06 got all modes. Very low maintanace. No milling is needed since its already 1.8 lb without barrel.

As of performance I can only judge Cyborgs. I got two and I cant say a single bad word about either one.
so in other words, the viking is a better marker because after you buy it, you have to pay $1000 for milling, ano and upgrades, whereas with a borg you have to spend $0?

if you want customizability, you can always get an 05 borg and send it to DC.

[Cow hunter]

so in other words, the viking is a better marker because after you buy it, you have to pay $1000 for milling, ano and upgrades, whereas with a borg you have to spend $0?

if you want customizability, you can always get an 05 borg and send it to DC.
i saw that DC full mill borg prototype, and i must say it looked awesome, and supposedly it was a ton lighter

[WenULiVeUdiE]

Umm, Slade your figures are a bit off there. Milling is $250 or $275 (depending on FSP cut) and anno is another $175 max. Add $50 or so for shipping costs and you have spent a total of $500 or so. I'm not sure what you would spend $500 on upgrades though. I guess you were just exaggerating or something...?

Pretty soon you can do the same for a 'Borg though.

If you do buy a Viking, then you can always send it off to DC for a tune-up and get it in like new condition.

[slade]

i saw that DC full mill borg prototype, and i must say it looked awesome, and supposedly it was a ton lighter
considering i shot it and held it with my borg for comparison...

and yes, it is quite a bit lighter.

not $300 or so worth of lightness, but thats just my opinion.

[slade]

Umm, Slade your figures are a bit off there. Milling is $250 or $275 (depending on FSP cut) and anno is another $175 max. Add $50 or so for shipping costs and you have spent a total of $500 or so. I'm not sure what you would spend $500 on upgrades though. I guess you were just exaggerating or something...?

Pretty soon you can do the same for a 'Borg though.

If you do buy a Viking, then you can always send it off to DC for a tune-up and get it in like new condition.
my figures? look at the post i quoted. direct that comment at him.

then again, rk's viking came out to around $1700 total, and theres that FSP viking that was over $3k.

[WenULiVeUdiE]

Oops, my bad. Sorry about the confusion. Didn't mean anything by it.

Ok, so uhh, yeah....I now direct my point at "ABTOCMEPTb"!

[rkjunior303]

i saw that DC full mill borg prototype, and i must say it looked awesome, and supposedly it was a ton lighter

it was lighter than my teammates ego

[BeaverEater]

i would personally go with the borg. I owned an 04 for about 6 months before i decided to quit..... but ive only played with a viking for about a day. The stock trigger pull of the borg sucks. I had a fbm delrin trigger in mine and a 50g switch and it was super light and super fast, no bounce at all either. I actually got back into paintball and got a dm4, and my borg was 10 times better.

[deathstalker]

I admit I haven't read many responses, so I apologize if I repeat anything. First, you'll find that many AKA owners also apppreciate Cyborgs. Second, I recommend a Viking over the 'borg for only one reason: I haven't shot a 'borg. :D

[ABTOCMEPTb]

$1000 including initial ~$500 you pay for a stock Vicking.

Also I didnt said that I preffer Vikings because of it. I got two Cyborgs and its shows clearly what is my weapon of choice.

I can say more. If you dont really care about all fancy tournament modes and OK to have semi-auto only than go with Sonic Cyborg and save another $200. Add PBK low weight Ram Kit and you will be happy forever.

I recently got Cyborg 06 and Sonic and I am happy with both.

[MicroMiniMe]

/paging Steelrat
;)

Your main concern over the two should be the availability of parts if you truly are going to hold on to the marker for years. As Coolhand stated, make sure your getting Hump noids and not Mac. AKA still has a lifetime warantee but since the markers are no longer being made, they are trimming up the warrantee coverage. I don't think they cover the noids any longer and they originally did. There are a good number of service centers for AKA. Gorilla Paintball would be the closest to you. There are also quality airsmiths like Coolhand around that could hold their own for major/minor repairs.

I've never shot a Borg but owned a few Vikings and currently own an Excalibur. They are pretty idiot proof if you don't mess with the LPR and I'm a strong candidate for village idiot when it comes to marker self maintenence.

[rkjunior303]

Add PBK low weight Ram Kit and you will be happy forever.

I'm interested to see what that will do to LPR pressure in conjunction with the lucky valve.

[jenarelJAM]

I've never shot a Borg but owned a few Vikings and currently own an Excalibur. They are pretty idiot proof if you don't mess with the LPR and I'm a strong candidate for village idiot when it comes to marker self maintenence.

Guess what the first thing I did with my viking was?
messed with the LPR
You guessed it... then I had to buy a toolkit to readjust it. That wasn't fun, but now I have a toolkit, so yay!

[ABTOCMEPTb]

In my case I got RAM gauge for my Cyborgs and adjusted LPR in a matter of minutes.

Also I am very pleased with maintanace required for Cyborgs. Tri flow for bolt's orings and daw 33 for RAM. That is all folks!!

[Steelrat]

/paging Steelrat
;)



Wow, sorry I missed this one for so long. I've been out-of-state taking care of, ah, business. Found the guy I was looking for ;)

I've owned countless 04 and 03 vikings and excals, and one 05 borg. While I enjoyed the handiness of the borg, I much prefer the vikings and excals. The borg's frame was terrible, especially for those with large hands like me. Plus, the hose routing through the frame is horrible, and frequently caused issues with the trigger. But it was a fun gun to use.

My vikings have (with the exception of the then-new 04 detent system) been bulletproof. I have never had one fail to work. You can play with the marker, run a few drops of oil through it at the end of the day, throw it in the bag, and it is literally all set to go the next time you play. The viking has superb build quality , consistency, and efficiency. It is also extremely fast once set up, easily as fast as anything else out there. The only thing better than a viking, IMHO, is...

An Excal. I just love that closed bolt feel. The boards take care of the timing unless you mess with the settings too much. They are smooth, and only slightly slower than vikings. I had no problem hitting over 15 bps with my 04 excals.

Like coolhand said, just stay away from the Mac noids if possible. And if you want a light gun, look at the milled vikings, I have seen beautiful milled 04 vikings (FSPs and featherlights) going for $700, which is a great price.

[slade]

Also I am very pleased with maintanace required for Cyborgs. Tri flow for bolt's orings and daw 33 for RAM. That is all folks!!
does tri flow really even do anything? any "smoothness" it creates for the bolt is rather worthless, considering the ram pressures required to achieve the correct velocity at around 200 psi cause quite a bit of pressure on the bolt; its not like a spool valve marker.

whats the consistency of triflow, anyway? im just wondering, because everyone specifies triflow only. it sounds like hype to me, i cant see why it would be better than a comparable lubricant.

[68magOwner]

06borg>viking>05 borg

[ABTOCMEPTb]

does tri flow really even do anything? any "smoothness" it creates for the bolt is rather worthless, considering the ram pressures required to achieve the correct velocity at around 200 psi cause quite a bit of pressure on the bolt; its not like a spool valve marker.

whats the consistency of triflow, anyway? im just wondering, because everyone specifies triflow only. it sounds like hype to me, i cant see why it would be better than a comparable lubricant.


I am just following other people advises. Dow for Ram, triflow for bolt. So far works like a charm. So i guess you can call it hype since manual only mentions dow 33.

[slade]

I am just following other people advises. Dow for Ram, triflow for bolt. So far works like a charm. So i guess you can call it hype since manual only mentions dow 33.
i think i will, thanks.

[Rudz]

exact qoute from jared at dc..for the fsp mill and a 2 color anno job..


ok the FSP mill is $275
single color with the wing $320 (180 for single color)
The original person had looked up the Greek mythologie and thought it was
cool..( regarding the fsp wing)
I charge $40 to take it apart and rebuild it. Plus return shipping.
Thanks
Jared @ DC
413-883-4328


275
180
40

495...for single color and milling..not bad....and yes i now own a viking..and im obsessed with it..

[MicroMiniMe]

exact qoute from jared at dc..for the fsp mill and a 2 color anno job..


ok the FSP mill is $275
single color with the wing $320 (180 for single color)
The original person had looked up the Greek mythologie and thought it was
cool..( regarding the fsp wing)
I charge $40 to take it apart and rebuild it. Plus return shipping.
Thanks
Jared @ DC
413-883-4328


275
180
40

495...for single color and milling..not bad....and yes i now own a viking..and im obsessed with it..

If you want to take a chance on anodizing taking longer, but still quality job for cheaper ask Jared about using ATMF, ATMF was the anodizer AKA used from the factory. Last year a single color OR simple acid wash was only $125, when I had my Featherlite custom built I was all over the acid wash price. I think fades were like $175. The order also hit a busy season and delay of 3 months at ano. Ask GT how bad the total wait was... :tard:
But DC uses FBM now, they are pretty quick and can handle anything and are very professional in buisness as well.

[murphy54]

I belive that the correct answer has to be viceversa

[rkjunior303]

If you want to take a chance on anodizing taking longer, but still quality job for cheaper ask Jared about using ATMF, ATMF was the anodizer AKA used from the factory. Last year a single color OR simple acid wash was only $125, when I had my Featherlite custom built I was all over the acid wash price. I think fades were like $175. The order also hit a busy season and delay of 3 months at ano. Ask GT how bad the total wait was... :tard:
But DC uses FBM now, they are pretty quick and can handle anything and are very professional in buisness as well.


Anotech took 5 months for them to Anno my Viking. DC had a TON of problems with them, which is why they made the switch to FBM. They were cheaper and more reliable. My reverse fade (red to clear) cost me $300 through Anotech.

[MicroMiniMe]

Anotech took 5 months for them to Anno my Viking. DC had a TON of problems with them, which is why they made the switch to FBM. They were cheaper and more reliable. My reverse fade (red to clear) cost me $300 through Anotech.
Owch. Sounds like I got through before it got real bad. Price and deadline wise. I remember Spartan's SFSP job took like 8 months and two trips just for ano.

[CoolHand]

Anotech took 5 months for them to Anno my Viking. DC had a TON of problems with them, which is why they made the switch to FBM. They were cheaper and more reliable. My reverse fade (red to clear) cost me $300 through Anotech.

Indeed. They sat on several thousand dollars worth of my stuff for about four months, and then sent it back raw.

All the Lindegarten companies suck for anyone not doing industrial type ano (no surface prep single primary color type II or III) in huge batches.

[Red Star Funk]

I personally would just save some more for an 06 Cyborg. They're also hoseless, which you mentioned you like, and they're A LOT more comfortable than the pre 06's. However, if you won't get the 06 Borg, then I suppose the Viking would be where it's at. They are bulky and have one more tube than anyone needs :dodgy:. And they're, dare I say... ugly? But they are a bit more comfortable and the damn things are tanks.

[sisco87]

Well since this thread somewhat has to do with AKA, I'll go ahead and ask this.

What are the differences between the Excal and the Viking? (sorry to get off subject a little)

[CoolHand]

Well since this thread somewhat has to do with AKA, I'll go ahead and ask this.

What are the differences between the Excal and the Viking? (sorry to get off subject a little)

Viking = Open Bolt Electro Pneumatic Ram Operated Poppet Style Marker

Excal = Closed Bolt Electro Pneumatic Dual Ram Operated Poppet Style Marker

Basically they are the same marker, one is closed bolt, one is open bolt. The Excal is a fuzz more complex because it has two rams (and thusly two solenoids and two board outputs, etc), but by and large they are pretty much the same. They are even machined from the same extrusion.

Feel wise they are a little different because of the different operational styles.

The only way to really understand is to shoot them side by side for yourself.

[jenarelJAM]

Viking can cycle faster(in theory) and cheaper, and lighter too if I'm not mistaken

Excal is smoother, about $150-200 more expensive, and rarer. And needs a barrel kit to stop paint from running out.

[sisco87]

Thanks you guys. That helped me out and answered my question. :cheers:
I just wish i could have both of them side by side to shoot. :shooting:

[Steelrat]

Thanks you guys. That helped me out and answered my question. :cheers:
I just wish i could have both of them side by side to shoot. :shooting:

It does help, though it is interesting to note that a lot of the long-time AKA users tend to prefer the excals.

[slade]

Viking can cycle faster(in theory) and cheaper, and lighter too if I'm not mistaken
...because a viking topping out at 40 bps while a cyborg can only sustain 30 really matters? thats twice as fast as you will ever need to shoot.

vikings arent really cheaper. just older. an unmilled 03 or 04 is worth 400-500, which is around what an 04 or 05 borg would go for. a milled, ano'd and upgraded viking could go for as much as $1000, which is about what an upgraded 06 would go for.

lighter? what? how did you get that in your head? vikings are huge, and unmilled ones are bricks. they have 3 tubes, and a tray. cyborgs have 2 tubes and no tray. if youre talking about milled vikings, well, just look at the DC cyborg. thats lighter than any DC viking.

[WenULiVeUdiE]

slade- I believe he was speaking in reference to the Viking against an Excalibur. As that is what the rest of his post contains.

[slade]

slade- I believe he was speaking in reference to the Viking against an Excalibur. As that is what the rest of his post contains.
ahh, that makes sense. i missed that, since he didnt quote anyone and the origional post was about vikings and borgs.

[Steelrat]

lighter? what? how did you get that in your head? vikings are huge, and unmilled ones are bricks. they have 3 tubes, and a tray. cyborgs have 2 tubes and no tray. if youre talking about milled vikings, well, just look at the DC cyborg. thats lighter than any DC viking.

Yeah, all unmilled vikings are huge :rolleyes:

[slade]

Yeah, all unmilled vikings are huge :rolleyes:
compared to a cyborg? they certainly are. compared to almost any gun on the market, they are large.

[WenULiVeUdiE]

Does having a large gun really matter all that much? I find that what truly matters is a gun you are comfortable with. When you reall get down to it, a Viking is not a whole lot wider. Also, don't foget the Halo is going to be the widest part of the exposed set up (sans tank of course). I mean how often has that extra .4" actually made you play worse?

I find that arguement to be fairly...futile. But that may just be to how I play and what I consider are important points...

[68magOwner]

compared to a cyborg? they certainly are. compared to almost any gun on the market, they are large.

no...not really, when you actualyl put an unmilled 04 viking side by side with otehr markers, its usually not bigger at all. Compared to a lasoya intimidator and a DM4, my 04 unmilled viking was, a touch wider than both (as expected, with a 3 tube desighn) but, was smaller in every other dimension, not to mention balanced better than the others when setup

[slade]

Does having a large gun really matter all that much? I find that what truly matters is a gun you are comfortable with. When you reall get down to it, a Viking is not a whole lot wider. Also, don't foget the Halo is going to be the widest part of the exposed set up (sans tank of course). I mean how often has that extra .4" actually made you play worse?

I find that arguement to be fairly...futile. But that may just be to how I play and what I consider are important points...
i usually hate arguments for smaller guns when it comes down to "this gun is better than last years because it is 1/4" shorter", but in this case it does matter to me. vikings just tend to be too large, and ive never liked the overall feel. there was only one setup i actually liked, and still then i prefer something like a cyborg or matrix.

and the way i shoot i lean the halo into the bunker, so its not very exposed, the marker and my arm is more exposed.

(and if you consider the extra tube, its closer to .8"... :P)

[FSU_Paintball]

06 viking if you can afford it. That's the way to go. The Viking has no advantages over it, but the Cyborg has several over the Viking.

Otherwise.... people consider the 05 viking to be a bit clumsy in terms of frame ergonomics... it's really opinion at that stage. But if you get a Viking, be sure that it has eyes.

[behemoth]

06 cyborg if you can afford it. That's the way to go. The Viking has no advantages over it, but the Cyborg has several over the Viking.

Otherwise.... people consider the 05 viking to be a bit clumsy in terms of frame ergonomics... it's really opinion at that stage. But if you get a Viking, be sure that it has eyes.

That what you meant?

[SpecialBlend2786]

UPDATE: Well....I missed the boat on the Viking deal I was looking for, but look what I picked up for just a few dollars more:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v131/SpecialBlend2786/cyborg2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v131/SpecialBlend2786/cyborg1.jpg

Got it with the full Matchstick barrel kit and the Tadao m5 board for just a little more than I was going to pay for the viking, so yeah.

Thanks for all the help though!

And someone punch me in the throat if I ever sell this thing.

[rkjunior303]

mmmmmm sunset fade sonic. i love that. I may get my DC Viking reannoed that color.

[SpecialBlend2786]

mmmmmm sunset fade sonic. i love that. I may get my DC Viking reannoed that color.

It isn't illegal for tourneys cause of the orange in the middle right? I remember someone mentioning orange being illegal awhile back :confused:

[Steelrat]

Nice cyborg, I'm sure you'll like it. Just remember, do NOT lube the ram bumper, it'll cause fsdo.

[rkjunior303]

I think you'll be ok.

pick up the PBK Lightweight hammer kit and the Lucky valve.. From what I'm hearing, it's phenomenal.

[SpecialBlend2786]

I think you'll be ok.

pick up the PBK Lightweight hammer kit and the Lucky valve.. From what I'm hearing, it's phenomenal.

Yeah, I;ve heard great things about the Lucky valves....when they don't leak. The PBK hammer kit should be great though. That and the new bolt that PBK is coming out with.

SteelRat~ Almost forgot about that, thanks for the heads up

[68magOwner]

It isn't illegal for tourneys cause of the orange in the middle right? I remember someone mentioning orange being illegal awhile back :confused:

Orange was banned from NPPL, but, most of you dont play NPPL anyway, and, no one cares if you use an orange gun in nppl anyway

[SpecialBlend2786]

ok, good deal.

As long as down the road I'm fine for local tourneys :clap: