Tank explodes in Madrid

[Beemer]

Anybody have any more info on this.

Gives new meaning to Flash fill. Need the heat for this to happen dont ya?

They decided.



Madrid Cylinder Incident
________________________________________________

A statement form Mr Trevor Kent form H-Pac concerning an incident at the the Millennium event in Madrid, today the 2nd June 2006.

At approximately 3pm there was an incident where a cylinder being filled exploded. After a thorough investigation and examination of the cylinder / regulator and also evidence found on the fill station, it was decided that a player had sprayed a general purpose lubricant (3 in 1 oil, found close by) into the fill nipple and then commenced to fill the cylinder.
This obviously ignited inside the cylinder under pressure which caused the reg to melt and the cylinder to fly into the staging area causing some injuries believed to be minor.

The reason for this accident was because the player used an incorrect method for repairing a fault with the fill nipple/ reg and thus endangered their own and other people's safety.
H-Pac would like to make it absolutely clear that the entire fault for this incident lay with the improper filling and maintenance of this cylinder.
The player in question has not come forward and remains anonymous for reasons which seem obvious.

Compressed air is dangerous if misused and if you have any problems, you should immediately consult the manufacturer.
Never attempt to repair these cylinder reg units by yourself, you should always consult the correct technicians or manufactures.

Trevor Kent
H-Pac

http://www.p8ntballer-forums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=64031

[ttink]

Jeez man, im glad no one was hurt too badly. Ill make a note to never oil my nipples as well ;)

[p8ntball72]

I know that many players think that filling an Air system in "no big deal"
but according to the NSERA and APL {paintball specific Insurance} Only trained and certified staff are to perform air fills.

Every weekend fields Violate the requirements set forth to protect us as players.
It does not matter if the Player was at fault in this accident, The promoter and Staff are at fault for allowing a noncertified person to preform the fill.

[paintman1234]

wow! seems like the person filling it would have been hurt a little more then "minor injuries" but thank goodness he or she wasnt

its bound to happen once and awhile

[behemoth]

why the hell would you put 3in1 into your fill nipple?

[RRfireblade]

Putting oil in a HP cyclinder, paintball or otherwise has always been a no no.

[Gunga]

why the hell would you put 3in1 into your fill nipple?

Cause you're stupid. :tard: I bet he'll never do that again.

[evildead420]

i had some experence with foreign objects in my tank

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=135124

i still not completely sure if it was water or oil but it did feel oily around the reg and threading area. no problem now cause that tank is gone.

[neppo1345]

Oil in a high pressure environment becomes more flammable than gasoline.

It's the basic concept behind a deesil engine.

Oil + High Pressure = Combustion.

[behemoth]

Cause you're stupid. :tard: I bet he'll never do that again.

I really hope you meant "you're" in answer of "Why would you do that..."

[jenarelJAM]

I hate the people who fill tanks at fields. They basicly slap your tank on the adaptor, turn the bleed off, open the gate completely, filling you tank in less than 5 seconds, then close it, bleed it, and give it back to you. Not only is this stupid and dangerous, My tank pressure goes from 3000 psi to 2400 psi in 2 minutes, and then I have to go back and get it filled AGAIN.

Putting oil in his tank was really not a good idea... This was at a Millenium tourney right? Aren't these people knowledgable enough not to put oil in their tanks???

[Ken Majors]

I attended a couple of schools on SCBA breathing cylinders through MSA and Scott.

Both of the manufacturers clearly state that filling a high pressure cylinder fast leads to premature failure of the inner liner, and excess wear and tear on the tank.
We were trained to fill tanks no faster than 500psi per minute, and slower than that if possible. Flash filling is never advised and the reason for that is demonstrated by what happened above.

Funny thing about that is that both Scott and MSA have come out with quick-fill adaptors to be used for emergency air fills. Which will without a doubt lead to people flash filling and breaking things.

But everyone knows if you flash fill, your psi drops to about 2/3 of what you had initially.
Not a big deal when you are filling between games and shoot it quickly before it has a chance to cool. Rookies on the fire department learn quickly if they fill the SCBA tanks too quickly that after about an hour they will be back out there filling them again.

Oil and HPA increased the kablooey factor about 10 times.
High pressure anything is dangerous. I once saw a burst high pressure air line cut through a firefighters glove and laid his hand open to the bone.
However: High pressure air is safe if used properly.

[ahellers]

wait. the field owner where i bought my tank told me you should put some lube in the tank every so often... so is this a no no?
t

[magman007]

big no no... tell him to stop advising that. theres an article on warpig as well.

[Jonno06]

i dont see how it could IGNITE from air though?



also, the fill station as the local field broke today, and when the pressure made the hose jump a little bit, it ripped my friends fill nipple in half. it was definitly some scary **** :wow:

[fire1811]

why the hell would you put 3in1 into your fill nipple?


normally its because they have a leak from the quick fill. And since there is an oring in there they figure oil will help. Honestly for the longest time when I started playing in the 90's it was a normal fix. I think the change now is the tanks are "slammed filled", where in the older days they were most always filled slowly. The increase in fill rate generates more heat which inturn makes the oil unhappy.

[Lohman446]

I love how this is suddenly blamed on flash filling. Are we filling tanks properly (including a containment box should things go wrong)? Obviously not. However, this was not a fault of flash filling. Its like someone being broadsided and then everyone going "oh, should have checked your fuel lines" a safety issue yes that had nothing to do with what happened.

[ZEROte]

flash filling made the tank hot enough to ignite the oil. scary stuff nonetheless.

[fire1811]

Obviously not. However, this was not a fault of flash filling. Its like someone being broadsided and then everyone going "oh, should have checked your fuel lines" a safety issue yes that had nothing to do with what happened.


Actually flash filling had quite a lot to do with it. As the air is compressed the amount of oxygen is increased. Fire requires three things to start: heat, fuel, and oxygen. The temperature needed to start a fuel burning is called flash point. As the amount of oxygen a fuel is exposed to increases, the flash point drops. So without the heat produced by a slam fill the flash point would be higher due to its lower temperature.

I agree with you on the filling needs to be in a containment box, but honestly I dont see this happening for quite a long time.

[magman007]

btw, you may not feel that much heat coming from your tank, but you also must remember that the tank is insulating some of it as well. there is an IMENSE amount of friction and pressure going on when filling, deffinitely enough to ignite vaporized oil, which as stated earlier, is quite volitile under pressure.

[neppo1345]

i dont see how it could IGNITE from air though?



also, the fill station as the local field broke today, and when the pressure made the hose jump a little bit, it ripped my friends fill nipple in half. it was definitly some scary **** :wow:

Deisel Engines (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/diesel.htm) (basic concept)


Basically, when the air enters the fill nipple, it atomizes the oil. As the pressure increases, the temperature increases (thats why your tank feels warm after a flash fill).

So now you have a temperature increase, atomized "petroleum product" (the stuff gas is made from), and SUPER high pressures.

boom

[Lohman446]

Actually flash filling had quite a lot to do with it. As the air is compressed the amount of oxygen is increased. Fire requires three things to start: heat, fuel, and oxygen. The temperature needed to start a fuel burning is called flash point. As the amount of oxygen a fuel is exposed to increases, the flash point drops. So without the heat produced by a slam fill the flash point would be higher due to its lower temperature.

I agree with you on the filling needs to be in a containment box, but honestly I dont see this happening for quite a long time.

Bu you don't require the heat to ignite the oil. Filling a bottle will put enough oxygen in there to ignite - increasing the pressure will lower the flash point (perhaps as low as ambient temperature). At this point you can get a fire. Granted, a higher temperature in the tank (along with a lower flash point) may cause problems where there would not have been had there not been a slam fill, but it is certainly not a prerequisite. If there is oil in the system simply filling may be enough to lower the flash point of that oil enough to ignite.

The fault here was in the oil more than in the filling procedure - in my opinion without any real insight into the facts at hand in the situation.

[ahellers]

so what is the perferd method to maintian the orings in the fill nipple?
t

[Beemer]

Looking around I found these.

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=1574497
http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=1574448

Plus the one in my first post.

Found this one but got to lost to verify a post on the subject. :tard:
Can someone translate.

http://forum.paintballers.de/index.php

So I would guess Mr Kent's statement to be real but that is all. The only thing I see in that statement is that something happened and they decided. Doh, it aint there fault :ninja:

All the facts Mr Kent please, all the facts.

Reminds me of Dragnet. Just the facts Mam, just the facts. :spit_take



I know that many players think that filling an Air system in "no big deal"
but according to the NSERA and APL {paintball specific Insurance} Only trained and certified staff are to perform air fills.

Every weekend fields Violate the requirements set forth to protect us as players.
It does not matter if the Player was at fault in this accident, The promoter and Staff are at fault for allowing a noncertified person to preform the fill.

Ouch, but true.


I hate the people who fill tanks at fields. They basicly slap your tank on the adaptor, turn the bleed off, open the gate completely, filling you tank in less than 5 seconds, then close it, bleed it, and give it back to you. Not only is this stupid and dangerous, My tank pressure goes from 3000 psi to 2400 psi in 2 minutes, and then I have to go back and get it filled AGAIN.
Putting oil in his tank was really not a good idea... This was at a Millenium tourney right? Aren't these people knowledgable enough not to put oil in their tanks???

Ya thats a SLAM fill. [Slam = Flash] SlamFill is new paintball term by Fire1811. :cheers:

You would think they would know but that I.A.D.S.P.B.P. thing IS a world wide thing.


However: High pressure air is safe if used properly
Pretty simple yet so hard for paintballers to get.


I think the change now is the tanks are "slammed filled", where in the older days they were most always filled slowly. The increase in fill rate generates more heat which inturn makes the oil unhappy.

True and true. Hey you copyrite that term? Mind if I use it? We need paintball terms[lingo]so they comprehend.



I love how this is suddenly blamed on flash filling. Are we filling tanks properly (including a containment box should things go wrong)? Obviously not. However, this was not a fault of flash filling.

I said it gave new meaning, never blamed it on anything.[Need ALL the facts] Ya and obviously not. I never did say it was a fault of a Slam Fill. How can you say it was not?
You got some facts spit em out. :cool:


Actually flash filling had quite a lot to do with it. As the air is compressed the amount of oxygen is increased. Fire requires three things to start: heat, fuel, and oxygen. The temperature needed to start a fuel burning is called flash point. As the amount of oxygen a fuel is exposed to increases, the flash point drops. So without the heat produced by a slam fill the flash point would be higher due to its lower temperature.

Maybe maybe not. We dont have ALL the facts. Got fuel got air need the heat too. :eek: Did a Slam happen? H-Pac will say no.
That would mean the vessel and or reg failed for other reasons. :confused: Wonder what tank it was.

Lots of questions and no answers at this time. :cry:

Peace Out

to add. oops forgot to add this. MSDS on 3 in 1. How hot does a slam get?

http://home.comcast.net/~beemerone/3In1MSDS.pdf

[Ken Majors]

Bu you don't require the heat to ignite the oil. Filling a bottle will put enough oxygen in there to ignite - increasing the pressure will lower the flash point (perhaps as low as ambient temperature). At this point you can get a fire. Granted, a higher temperature in the tank (along with a lower flash point) may cause problems where there would not have been had there not been a slam fill, but it is certainly not a prerequisite. If there is oil in the system simply filling may be enough to lower the flash point of that oil enough to ignite.

The fault here was in the oil more than in the filling procedure - in my opinion without any real insight into the facts at hand in the situation.

The ignition temperature of the pressurized fuel is what you are referring to.
The flash point is insignificant in this application. What I mean is without an ignition source, the flash point is insignificant.
Ignition temp is the temp at which a given fuel will ignite without an ignition source. But...like you said, if you pressurize the fuel enough to lower the flash point/ingnition point, then you have a big boom. The semantics aren't important.

We will only see containment box filling stations when a few kids get killed from similar situations. I can remember my first big game when I saw a 10 year old kid walk up to the fill station and slam fill an HPA bottle. :eek: My heart literally skipped a beat.
It will happen it is only a matter of time.

[jewie27]

people in paintball have no idea how to fill a cylinder at the proper fill rate. Oil should never be put into the fill port..

compressed air cylinders need to be filled at 100psi per minute or slower. the slower the better.

[SpecialBlend2786]

I remember when i first started playing, I was always told to just put a couple drops of oil in my asa, then put the tank on and cycle the marker a couple of times to oil my gun... :eek:

[paullus99]

And remember from your physics class - heat = pressure, the higher the pressure, the more heat is generated....

[jsdatjsd]

Holy cannoli!

Now I want to skip the HPA and go CO2......


Or buy my own fill station.

Or buy 3 HPA tansk, and have them slow filled at a licesnes/certified scuba shop and just say when my 3 tanks are dry, the day is over.

I was always weirded out by tanks fills... :cuss:

Now, if I have a 3000 psi hpa tank, and I should take 1 minute per psi, that is a 30 minute refill. No way any field will let a single tank monopoloze the station for a half hour.

You might get 500 psi a minute, of yo ubeg them to fill it slowly....

Never played at a field where players were allowed to fill their own tanks.

I just looked at the price of buying a containement system and an HPA compressor for myself.......ouch.

So If I get hpa, I risk a blow out? :mad:

-JD

[cowboy_00]

Holy cannoli!

Now I want to skip the HPA and go CO2......


Or buy my own fill station.

Or buy 3 HPA tansk, and have them slow filled at a licesnes/certified scuba shop and just say when my 3 tanks are dry, the day is over.

I was always weirded out by tanks fills... :cuss:

Now, if I have a 3000 psi hpa tank, and I should take 1 minute per psi, that is a 30 minute refill. No way any field will let a single tank monopoloze the station for a half hour.

You might get 500 psi a minute, of yo ubeg them to fill it slowly....

Never played at a field where players were allowed to fill their own tanks.

I just looked at the price of buying a containement system and an HPA compressor for myself.......ouch.

So If I get hpa, I risk a blow out? :mad:

-JD



Most likely not. This is a freak accident of a lot of silly things coming together at once.

No field I play on lets me fill my own tank and if i am ever forced to fill my own tank ill let me SCBA certified teammate fill em and take all the time he needs.

Like someone said above, HPA is dangerous when used by stupid people who dont know basic safety. as long as your safe and smart you shouldnt run into to much at all.


(Plus havent you heard of people managing to unscrew the valve from Co2 tanks and making them into little rockets off there markers)

[Lohman446]

I remember when i first started playing, I was always told to just put a couple drops of oil in my asa, then put the tank on and cycle the marker a couple of times to oil my gun... :eek:

At your ASA the pressure is 800PSI (or whatever your reg is set to) which is a massive difference from 3 or 45K

[jsdatjsd]

(Plus havent you heard of people managing to unscrew the valve from Co2 tanks and making them into little rockets off there markers)

Gosh.....removing the valve without letting the pressure off first seems kinda......stupid?

Hey, back in the day, when I had my co2 tank, I wasn't sure if I should store the tank with pressure in it, so whenever I stored it, I released all the pressuere over a couple minutes.

Is that a bad thing to do?

JD

[MarkM]

The reason this person did this was to attempt a seal on a leaking fill nipple as it is one of those things that people have tried and found that on occasion will work...the simple fact that is is potentially lethal seems to have slipped by these people, much the same way as a leaking fill nipple is often hit with a allen key stuck inside to attempt a seal...mmm 1000psi (minimum) and a loose object...that's going to end well :rolleyes:
To date the only serious injury that has happen in Europe (French leg of the Millenium) has been the near blinding of an english guy whose macro fitting blew up at the fill station...the result is macro fittings that actually have correct burst pressures and macroline that has correct burst pressures for the use in Paintball...NONE of the major paintball equipment makers supply ANY fitting or hose that comes close enough to be honestly regarded as safe. If any of you actually belong to the p8ntballer forum or wish to join then find a guy called Tom Allen and buy his fittings and hose they are a fair bit more than the ones you are using but what price your eyes or worse?

[SpecialBlend2786]

At your ASA the pressure is 800PSI (or whatever your reg is set to) which is a massive difference from 3 or 45K

point.

But is there any risk of oil getting into the reg and then into the tank when i do this?

[Lohman446]

point.

But is there any risk of oil getting into the reg and then into the tank when i do this?


Realistically - not really. I'm sure someones going to tell me I'm nuts. But that pressure is going to push most anything out

[SpecialBlend2786]

Realistically - not really. I'm sure someones going to tell me I'm nuts. But that pressure is going to push most anything out

ok, good deal.

PS. if I die, I'm haunting your *** to the grave :ninja:

[FiXeL]

ok, good deal.

PS. if I die, I'm haunting your *** to the grave :ninja:

Good luck. The chance of oil flowing against a 850psi airflow are just as slim as you walking on water. It is perfectly safe to put a few drops of oil into your asa and gas up the marker and dryfire to distribute the oil in the marker.

This accident gives everybody playing a heads up to take compressed air seriously. This time there were no people seriously hurt, but this really scares me... what if you are standing in line for a refill, and some noob flashfills a tank with oil in it? :ninja:

[Beemer]

Bu you don't require the heat to ignite the oil. Filling a bottle will put enough oxygen in there to ignite - increasing the pressure will lower the flash point (perhaps as low as ambient temperature). At this point you can get a fire. Granted, a higher temperature in the tank (along with a lower flash point) may cause problems where there would not have been had there not been a slam fill, but it is certainly not a prerequisite. If there is oil in the system simply filling may be enough to lower the flash point of that oil enough to ignite..

You will have to show me the numbers before I buy this. How much lower will the flash point be under pressure? Did you read the MSDS? It starts at 350F TOC. I doubt it would go down to ambient temp under pressure since they distribute it in a pressurized can. You still need the heat or spark. If you could make a spark inside your tank, would it blow?


NONE of the major paintball equipment makers supply ANY fitting or hose that comes close enough to be honestly regarded as safe.

Guess you have to know where to look. I wouldnt say none.

Any chance you heard or know what tank and reg it was?

[Lohman446]

You will have to show me the numbers before I buy this. How much lower will the flash point be under pressure? Did you read the MSDS? It starts at 350F TOC. I doubt it would go down to ambient temp under pressure since they distribute it in a pressurized can. You still need the heat or spark. If you could make a spark inside your tank, would it blow?


They distribute oil in a pressurized can - to 3000PSI? Think of a true diesel engine - whats the ignition source? Besides, I did the normal vagueness of people who talk about safety issues. More pressure lowers the flash point - I never stated to ambient temperature (I think I didn't). It was a statement of base physics really. Though I am told the term flash point may have been incorrect.

[MarkM]

NONE of the major paintball equipment makers supply ANY fitting or hose that comes close enough to be honestly regarded as safe.

Guess you have to know where to look. I wouldnt say none.

Any chance you heard or know what tank and reg it was?


I stick with what I said NONE of the major PAINTBALL makers supply very high rated fittings and hoses for certain not for the pressures that we actually use, you can buy fittings that are well in excess of the pressures used but then you have to go outside of the paintball industry, so yes fittings and hoses are available but NOT from the paintball suppliers...again that isn't to say that an individual store hasn't sourced the same fittings and hoses I am talking about but they certainly are NOT fitted to the marker as supplied.

I haven't heard which tank other than the same information you can read online...right now it is all smoke and mirrors to what actually happened....that is some people have said one thing some another.

[hitech]

Think of a true diesel engine - whats the ignition source?

In a diesel the heated metal in the head provides the extra heat necessary. Hence the glow plugs before everything is warm. Also, the rapid compression provides heat...

:cheers:

[Lohman446]

In a diesel the heated metal in the head provides the extra heat necessary. Hence the glow plugs before everything is warm. Also, the rapid compression provides heat...

:cheers:

Understood - but there is no "spark". The flash point is lowered by compression - granted not to 70 degrees but enough that it ignites.

[hitech]

I stick with what I said NONE of the major PAINTBALL makers supply very high rated fittings and hoses for certain not for the pressures that we actually use.

What about these:

http://store.airgun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.prodInfo&productID=322&categoryID=16

I assume AGD is a major enough... :rofl: (Sorry, couldn't help it...)

:cheers:

[hitech]

Understood - but there is no "spark". The flash point is lowered by compression - granted not to 70 degrees but enough that it ignites.

If I remember correctly, nothing requires a spark or flame to ignite, just enough heat. Sparks and flames (what us lay-people think of a ignation sources) are just very hot. I don't know what temp a typical diesel gets to on compression prior to it dieseling, but I'll bet it is several hundred degrees. Get anything hot enough and it burns.

[PumpPlayer]

You're talking about the difference between the flash point and the auto-ignition temperature. An ignition source is required to initiate combustion at any temperature below the auto-ignition point.


Depending upon the compression ratio, pre-ignition pressure in a diesel engine is around 1000 psi. A far cry below what you put into your HPA tank. However, you don't have the heat generated by compression to deal with. If you were to take the volume of air which would fit into your HPA tank and instantly compress it and squeeze it inside, the temperature would be so high it'd be impossible to hold onto (assuming the tank actually survived the high temperature). The air that comes out of the compressor, bottle or fill station is already compressed and cooled. The increase in temperature that you see when you fill a tank is caused by resistance losses in the air line and fill nipple causing the gas to loose energy in the form of heat. Once filled, P/T = P/T kicks in and the pressure drops as the gas cools again. Filling a tank slowly does two things. First, because the velocity of the gas through the line is less, there is less resistance to flow and therefore less energy lost to heat. Second, filling the tank over a greater period of time allows more time for heat to dissipate to the atmosphere (through the air and your hands) and so the tank is still being filled as it looses energy.

If you want to get the most out of your fills, use a fill station with the shortest hose possible and the least number of bends or elbows in the line. Remove your tank cover to let heat dissipate faster. Fill as slowly as practical to minimize resistance losses.



Putting oil into a tank isn't exactly like a diesel engine because the temperatures are nowhere near the same. It's still dangerous, though, and you shouldn't ever do it.

[Muzikman]

To date the only serious injury that has happen in Europe (French leg of the Millenium) has been the near blinding of an english guy whose macro fitting blew up at the fill station...the result is macro fittings that actually have correct burst pressures and macroline that has correct burst pressures for the use in Paintball...NONE of the major paintball equipment makers supply ANY fitting or hose that comes close enough to be honestly regarded as safe. If any of you actually belong to the p8ntballer forum or wish to join then find a guy called Tom Allen and buy his fittings and hose they are a fair bit more than the ones you are using but what price your eyes or worse?

This is the reason I will never use Macro/Micro and it's steel braid and brass fittings for me (not even aluminum). I value my life and the lives of those around me.

One thing people have to remember is that anything over 300psi is high pressure and is dangerous.

Oh, and I only use 6 ball QD's.

[Muzikman]

I think Mark is talking about Macro lines and fittings.

[Surestick]

they distribute it in a pressurized can

Yes, they do sell oil in a pressurized can but not at 3K PSI & not pressurized w/air. Generally there's a propellant used & there is no oxygen or other oxidizers in the can & therefore no chance of combustion.

[Beemer]

They distribute oil in a pressurized can - to 3000PSI? Think of a true diesel engine - whats the ignition source? More pressure lowers the flash point

No not 3000psi :shooting: but still under pressure. Of course under pressure its not 3in1 oil anymore, its WD-40 then it magically changes back to 3in1 after you spray it out and some evaporation happens. :ninja: The ignition source is the Heated Air. Even if pressure lowers the flash you still need heat for ignition. The question is how much? Where did it come from.
Where was the failure? Wonder if it was a Stako tank.

Compressed air at high pressures may accelerate combustion but you still need fuel and heat.

http://home.comcast.net/~beemerone/MSDS-CompressedAir.pdf



Yes, they do sell oil in a pressurized can but not at 3K PSI & not pressurized w/air. Generally there's a propellant used & there is no oxygen or other oxidizers in the can & therefore no chance of combustion.

I know not at 3000psi. :argh: It will combust if you apply enough heat.

[MarkM]

What about these:

http://store.airgun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.prodInfo&productID=322&categoryID=16

I assume AGD is a major enough... :rofl: (Sorry, couldn't help it...)

:cheers:



I think Mark is talking about Macro lines and fittings.

Muzikman, I am talking about macro fittings BUT those Stainless braided although somewhat stronger than macro hose are still rated below what we actually at times put into the hoses and the elbows they fit into. 2 years ago I showed Tom the fittings I was using together with the spec sheet and he agreed they were better than those he sold but said although better than his (and everyone elses) people won't pay the extra cost. Stainless braid is simply macro wrapped in stainless braid it isn't some mythical stronger hose, it leaks in just the same way as macro and in some cases worse than macro as I have seen many steel braids blow up like a ballon.
This thread is actually about an entire bottle/reg letting go, I brought up the fittings used as simply the next step towards ensuring that accidents are limited.

[Lohman446]

Compressed air at high pressures may accelerate combustion but you still need fuel and heat.
.

Agreed. Obviously a fuel source is always needed. Compression lowers how much heat is needed. 70 degrees is heat, just probably not enough to do anything with

[Surestick]

It will combust if you apply enough heat.

Not if there's no oxygen in the can...

Spray cans use a propellant to provide the pressure, not pressurized air so there's no oxygen.

Of course if you heat it enough the can will fail due to overpressure & whatever is inside will be in contact with air & can burn.

Remember the combustion triangle: fuel - oxygen - heat. If you remove one of them thre can be no fire.

When you add oil to an HPA tank you are mixing fuel & oxygen. The high pressure lowers the amount of heat needed to start combustion so you end up w/a dangerous mix.

[SlartyBartFast]

Remember the combustion triangle: fuel - oxygen - heat. If you remove one of them thre can be no fire.

Hmm Someone brighter than the average bear. :p

Just remember that "heat" is still present even when at 1 degree above absolute zero.

Anything combustible into liquid oxygen will vaporise instantly.

To those ignorantly arguing and comparing 3000/4500psi with lots of air vs. a few psi and no air in a WD-40 bottle: Pressure increases the "oxygen" part of the triangle and lowers the heat requirement.

Good definitions, even includes some math:
http://www-che.engr.ccny.cuny.edu/faculty/rinard/design/Safety3.pdf

[hitech]

...BUT those Stainless braided although somewhat stronger than macro hose are still rated below what we actually at times put into the hoses...Stainless braid is simply macro wrapped in stainless braid it isn't some mythical stronger hose...

Not the stuff I'm used to. Most of what I am use to is "grease gun" hose with a SS braid. I just recently had some made from "parker" and it's rated well above 3k psi. And it didn't even have the SS braid (that stuff was rated even higher).

:cheers:

[MarkM]

Not the stuff I'm used to. Most of what I am use to is "grease gun" hose with a SS braid. I just recently had some made from "parker" and it's rated well above 3k psi. And it didn't even have the SS braid (that stuff was rated even higher).

:cheers:

I know what you mean I didn't say the product wasn't out there but it isn't supplied by the paintball stores unless they have gone to the trouble of sourcing it and due to cost differences the majority don't sell it because as it costs more in the first place so they will still have in inventory. Macro and Braid varied greatly in performance and to look at them both they look alike, so the customer has no way of knowing that Macro or Braid from X store is inferior or better than Y store. Tom told me the macro fittings I use were above the items HE sold and the reason for not stocking was purely the cost, I showed him with a view to getting a supply line into him. Admittedly he very shortly afterwards announced his change of direction. The fittings I use appear to be macro but if I took regular macro hose and tried to use it the hose falls out of the fitting.

[hitech]

So, do you know the specs on the braided hose in the AGD online store?

[raehl]

I remember when i first started playing, I was always told to just put a couple drops of oil in my asa, then put the tank on and cycle the marker a couple of times to oil my gun... :eek:

And there is nothing wrong with that, unless you're an idiot, because you're not putting petroleum-based oil in your marker( unless you like your orings deteriorating), and the PSI in your ASA is 850 or so, not 4500.

There are several problems here, one of which is most people don't understand the difference between oil as a LUBRICANT, and oil as in petrolium. Substances can be one, both, or the other. It's only the oil that's based on Petroleum that's going to run you into trouble in your tank; there are plenty of LUBRICATING oils that are not petroleum based that are fine.

The easy solution, though, is don't put any liquid in your tank. Tanks don't need oil, and it shouldn't be used. Non-petroleum oil in your ASA is OK.

- Chris

[raehl]

One quick thought on flash fills...

Flash fills may be bad, but it's extremely unlikely flash filling would cause the kind of scenario that happened at Millenium. The injuries generally associated with compressed air tanks in paintball (esp. carbon fiber ones) occur when the tanks get turned into projectiles because the regulator separates from the tank - that's the two fatalities from Co2 tanks in the US, and the circumstances in the Millenium incident - the heat ruined the integrity of the regulator which separated from the tank and the intact tank became a projectile.

With tank failures (what you'd get from extensive flash fills), the tank will fail with a rupture, which is a massive failure which releases your pressure quickly and not in a vectored direction. I'm not saying this is a great outcome, but the tank at least won't go flying all over the place.


This is one reason I avoid the cheapie aluminium tanks in favor of carbon fiber tanks - the carbon fiber tanks won't send metal fragments into your hand if they fail.

- Chris

[MarkM]

So, do you know the specs on the braided hose in the AGD online store?

Lower than the ones I use, even though it was macro I was showing Tom...afterall he should know ;) How much lower I have no idea.

[deathstalker]

This is the reason I will never use Macro/Micro and it's steel braid and brass fittings for me (not even aluminum).
I remember reading a few years back that brass is not rated for the pressures we see in paintball, either. If you want to play it safe, you need to find SS fittings, too (not the nickel-plated ones some stores try to pass off as SS). Like I said, I read it a few years ago, so my memory could be playing tricks on me.

[SlartyBartFast]

This is one reason I avoid the cheapie aluminium tanks in favor of carbon fiber tanks - the carbon fiber tanks won't send metal fragments into your hand if they fail.


You do know that on the inside fiber wrapped tanks are aluminum. Right? :rolleyes:
If it explodes fragments of aluminum and fiber are going everywhere.
Plus, breathing in fiber dust is REALLY bad for your lungs.

A tank rupture might not cause as much of a bottle rocket, but chances are you'll have a large mass of bottle/regulator flying off in one direction or another.

Tank fragmentation vs. Regulator rupture?
Regulator rupture will be less likely to kill the person holding the marker. The unlucky sod in the way will be killed. Or in the case of Millenium, everone lucks out and nothing is in the way....
Tank fragmentation. People in the immediate vicinity WILL be injured.

[Beemer]

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?p=23008841#post23008841

http://www.paintball.se/gallery/albums/madrid_segerfalk/IMG_3864.jpg

http://www.paintball.se/gallery/albums/madrid_segerfalk/IMG_3868.jpg

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?p=22804306#post22804306


http://www.zi007.net/images/forum/tete_de_nico.jpg

http://www.p8ntballer-forums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=64031&page=4

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/4738/madrid0574lv.jpg

This is the reply I got trying to find out what the flash would be at 3000psi for 3in1.
Started with a phone call and ended with this cyber message.

"Thank you for contacting WD-40. We have no information on this question and am sorry to say that we can't assist you. I would not suggust using our products for your application.

Please feel free to contact me with any questions and concerns that you have about any of our products.

Best regards,
First, Last
Title"

Still had to have heat, just how much?

How would you define a slam? I would say any fill that drops pressure from the max output of the fill. If you stop with a 4500 fill and two minutes more or less later you are less then 4500, then you got to much heat and droped pressure after cooling. Not a full[good] fill but a slam.

Seems it could have been a Stako tank.

[Surestick]

As Slartybartfast said:
Just remember that "heat" is still present even when at 1 degree above absolute zero.

To a certain extent pressure & heat are interchangeable - think ice melting at below freezing temps from the pressure applied by the blade of a skate.
If oil is igniting due to the extra heat from a rapid fill then they are right on the ragged edge with a slower fill, especially on a hot day in the sun.
Also do we know what pressure this happened at? Could have been halfway through the fill.

It is nice to see that the failure mode of the tank means minimal shrapnel, it could have grenaded. I wonder if the burst disk even went off or if the pressure rise was too sudden?

[Lohman446]

Ohh... I wonder if that will influence pending DOT approval of those tanks in the US (I heard rumor)?

[Temo Vryce]

Diesel truck cylinder pressure:
A quick search on google found a web site that referred to the presure in the cylinder of thier Diesel engine as being about 130 PSI max, before ignition. Here. (http://energy.bmstu.ru/e02/diesel/d212eng.htm) The average cylinder of a big rig is the size of a 2 litre pop bottle. Put an air/fuel mixture in there and rapidly force the piston down so that it is with 1/8" of the other side of the cylinder. The volume is quickly reduced by a factor of about 500 - 1000.

When dealing with atomised explosives, the tighter the seal the bigger the bang.

This incident is unfortunate and resulted from a couple of mistakes. The 2 big ones being Oil in the fill nipple and flash filling.

What I would like to know and no one has bothered to ask is who's fill station was this person using? The fields or thier own? Some people here have blamed the field/staff but if this was the player's own fill station how can you blame the field?

[jsdatjsd]

Why is flash filling bad?

I mean, if someone wants to strip off their clothes before they fill my tank ,who cares? I'll just turn my back.

:dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance:

[magman007]

You do know that on the inside fiber wrapped tanks are aluminum. Right? :rolleyes:
If it explodes fragments of aluminum and fiber are going everywhere.
Plus, breathing in fiber dust is REALLY bad for your lungs.

A tank rupture might not cause as much of a bottle rocket, but chances are you'll have a large mass of bottle/regulator flying off in one direction or another.

Tank fragmentation vs. Regulator rupture?
Regulator rupture will be less likely to kill the person holding the marker. The unlucky sod in the way will be killed. Or in the case of Millenium, everone lucks out and nothing is in the way....
Tank fragmentation. People in the immediate vicinity WILL be injured.


no, im sure Chris Raehl, the cppa founder, and the APPA doesnt know this....

[Recon by Fire]

Tanks explode in Baghdad too... not from flash filling though. :rofl:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b70/doublenot7/DSCF0016.jpg

[Beemer]

Tanks explode in Baghdad too... not from flash filling though. :rofl:


:eek: But from what then? :headbang:


What the heck is this? :wow:

Matty Marshall recaps with pro players Yosh Rou, Alex Fraige, Davey Williamson, Nicky Cuba and Rusty Glaze.

These guys are Pros? :tard: They made ONE good point at the end. :clap:

http://home.comcast.net/~beemerone/TankExplodes.mp3 Three minute excerpt. 2.7meg



What I would like to know and no one has bothered to ask is who's fill station was this person using? The fields or thier own?

It wasnt his own. H-Pac was doing the fills for the event.


Oh, I wonder, will that influence pending DOT approval of those tanks in the US? (I heard rumor) :ninja:

Maybe its not rumor.

[SlartyBartFast]

no, im sure Chris Raehl, the cppa founder, and the APPA doesnt know this....

Do I detect sarcasm? :rolleyes:

And what exactly do any of those prove with reagards to air system knowledge?

I'll leave Chris Raehl to defend himself. Unless he responds to my post himself, and judging from his earlier post, I can only assume he doesn't know.

[magman007]

the fact that he has been in the industry longer than you can imagine, and that any idiot in paintball knows that fiber wrapped tanks have a soft, aluminum core.

and if you dont know...

the CPPA is the Coligiate Paintball Players Assoc.

snd the APPA

is the American Paintball Players Assoc.
appa also runs the id system for the PSP, CFOA, and many other series. IM sure he is around the sport more than enough to know about fiber wrapped tanks.

[Lohman446]

the fact that he has been in the industry longer than you can imagine, and that any idiot in paintball knows that fiber wrapped tanks have a soft, aluminum core.

and if you dont know...

the CPPA is the Coligiate Paintball Players Assoc.

snd the APPA

is the American Paintball Players Assoc.
appa also runs the id system for the PSP, CFOA, and many other series. IM sure he is around the sport more than enough to know about fiber wrapped tanks.

Seriously, gonna have to red flag you on this one man. Those all prove he knows a lot about the administration of a league. And well assuming he knowns a lot about the technology may very well be accurate, those are certainly not proof of it.

[SlartyBartFast]

IM sure he is around the sport more than enough to know about fiber wrapped tanks.

Well smart guy, read the part I quoted.

Rael seems to think there is a difference between cheap aluminum and fiber wrapped.... :rolleyes:

[Beemer]

Well if it was a Stako tank, its a plastic wrap or something aint it.

http://www.paintball.info.pl/

http://paintball.info.pl/images/news/wypadek/reg1.jpg

http://paintball.info.pl/images/news/wypadek/reg3.jpg

http://paintball.info.pl/images/news/wypadek/butla2.jpg

[SlartyBartFast]

Well if it was a Stako tank, its a plastic wrap or something aint it.

All composite tanks are built using a metal tank, wrapped with fiber and resin.

So, define "plastic". Plastic encompasses many different resins. The fiber can be one of numerous substances, a popular one being carbon.

[Beemer]

All composite tanks are built using a metal tank,

All except the Stako. The only metal is where the reg screws in, the rest is some sort of Composite, resin, plastic whatever wrap. No metal tank inside.

[Lohman446]

All except the Stako. The only metal is where the reg screws in, the rest is some sort of Composite, resin, plastic whatever wrap. No metal tank inside.

That was my understanding as well.

[SlartyBartFast]

All except the Stako. The only metal is where the reg screws in, the rest is some sort of Composite, resin, plastic whatever wrap. No metal tank inside.

Nothing on the wessite indicates that they've come up with a revolutionary resin and wrap that can hold 4500psi.

http://www.stako.pl/object.php/act/shp/oid/6a786059125724336622a550aaf24ba2/lng/en

"Composite" just means "many components". Every wrapped tank in use today is a composite tank.

Unless someone has another link detailing the construction of those tanks....

[Beemer]

Ya I couldnt find anything either. Dont know how they do it but there aint no metal tank inside that is why it is so lite

[thefool]

aluminum is light too...

[SlartyBartFast]

Ya I couldnt find anything either. Dont know how they do it but there aint no metal tank inside that is why it is so lite

Until someone can provide proof that that's the case, I highly doubt the assertion that an all plastic tank is possible for 4350psi (30Mpa Working Pressure).

Solid aluminum tanks can do 4350psi and look at how thick they are.

But, as the standard EN 12245 does talk of metallic or non-metallic liners, it may be a possibility. But one I won't beleive until I see better proof than internet hear-say.

http://www.sfs.fi/luettelo/sfs.php?standard=SFS-EN%2012245%3Aen

But, that begs the question: If it is all plastic, why the ignorant fear of them based on that? The standard in question is the same for all manner of composite tank. They'll have to go through the same testing and qualification...

That, and Rael's rant against 'plastic' is completely inappropriate and ill-informed as the accident in question the reg blew up for cipes sake!

[Beemer]

Well you can still call it hear-say but that is what I was told by a Major USA Reg manufacturer who has three in his possession for testing. The term plastic was used loosely. The only metal is where the reg screws in and that piece is some how integrated into the whole composite wrap.

Also the life span is five years, no hydro.

[hitech]

The tank listed on there web site is a 67.13 ci tank (1.1 l). They claim it weighs 1.65 lbs (.75 kg). The same size Carlton tanks (68 ci) weight 2.2 lbs for the 3000 psi version (part number 6310) and 2.4 lbs for the 4500 psi version (part number 6304). I don't know what it is made from, but it is significantly (70%) lighter than comparable Carlton tank.

...adding fuel to the fire...


:cheers:

[Beemer]

Thanks for the help Hitech. :cheers:

[Lohman446]

But, that begs the question: If it is all plastic, why the ignorant fear of them based on that? The standard in question is the same for all manner of composite tank. They'll have to go through the same testing and qualification...


My concern with plastic is the definition of failure, I think we had this conversation in regards to carbon fiber and aluminum. Aluminum is defined to fail when it deforms a certain degree. Carbon fibre when it unravels (though this is often a rather dramatic failure when its in structural pieces). It would seem that when a plastic tank fails it must... well catastrophically fail.

I have been told by a salesperson that it is a plastic tank and that accounts for the weight difference

[jsdatjsd]

I hope the guy filling the tank said "tank you, come again!"

[mkmckinley]

Where can I get a one of those stako tanks. Looked around and cant find them anywhere

[Ken Majors]

Stako Industries (http://www.stako.pl/index.htm)

Not sure if the DOT will approve them for import.
Although I am sure there are people in the US using them.
I would like to Hydro test one once, just to see what happens in the tank at 7500psi.
Not sure I would test a tank that had no inner liner (aluminum).
But if it doesn't have a DOT stamp....pretty sure it would never make it to the hydro tank.

Buy one Here (http://www.skill.com.pl/shop/product_info.php?cPath=30&products_id=220)

Not sure what the exchange rate is in Poland. :rolleyes:

[mkmckinley]

Hey thanks for the link. Looks like 699 polish zloty's is $219.40. Kinda steep even if you could get one here. I guess I'm kind of a newb but is there any difference in the DOT approved tanks here? Is there someone making like a super light tank compared to my old carleton?

[HOMELANDEFENDER]

I've been reading this thread and I recommend everyone buy one of these: http://safetyglasses.com/store/store.pl?cid=14#3 . I've been using them a lot more lately simply because our sport and hobby isn't as safe as the general lack of accidents may allow you to believe. A 4500 psi tank is nothing to take lightly. Not to say that you should now be afraid of using HPA. But treat it just as if you'd handle a loaded firearm -- with respect.

Also knowing the rules when airing up, lubing your marker, ect.... Many times common sense usually points the way, but in this instance - educating yourself in the proper handling of potentially dangerous HPA applications is only smart logic.

As for wearing safety glasses -- they can save your eye's from HPA issues AND issues with morons waking around without barrel condems in the safe zones. Being safe is a mind set that we all should adopt and practice.

Stay safe, and enjoy our sport.

HLD...

[SlartyBartFast]

I just received an e-mail from Stako’s Commercial Director. The Director is promising to post Stako’s official statement on AO.

[STAKO]

A statement of Mr Arek Kubasik, Commercial Director of STAKO, Poland concerning an incident at the Millennium event in Madrid on 2nd June 2006

With regard to numerous posts concerning the quality of our products we would like to inform that STAKO 1,1 L paintball tanks are manufactured according to EN 12245 “Transportable gas cylinders – Fully wrapped composite cylinder”. This norm is the European equivalent of D.O.T. requirements. Both EN and D.O.T. requirements are basically the same and this product perfectly complies with them. We are currently working on D.O.T. accreditation for the US market and in the near future the ID plate of our 1,1 L paintball tanks will show D.O.T. approval number along with currently marked EN approval.

There was an incident where the mixture of air and oil used to fill one of our 1,1 L tanks exploded. After a thorough investigation and examination of the cylinder / regulator and also evidence found on the fill station, it was decided that a player had sprayed a general purpose lubricant (3 in 1 oil, found close by) into the fill nipple and then commenced to fill the cylinder. The reason for this accident was because the player used an incorrect method for repairing a fault with the fill nipple/ regulator and thus endangered their own and other people's safety (investigation done by H-Pac). One should never put any flammable substances into the tank!

It is important to observe though, that the tank did not burst open, which proves the quality of its design. The minimum burst pressure of STAKO 1,1 L paintball tank (part of a standard testing procedure in our manufacturing process) is 1100 bar – approx. 17404 psi, whereas the highest observed was 1342 Bar – approx. 20 000 psi.

The usage of plastic liner, as designed and manufactured by STAKO does not in any way influence the strength of the tank. The pressure in this application is carried by the carbon fiber wrapping structure and has been approved and certified by German TÜV.

[hitech]

Thank you for the reply. Very interesting information.
:cheers:

[Beemer]

http://www.p8ntballer-forums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=64031&page=4 Post 54




Flow restricted filling

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi,
the fill panels used by H PAC are fitted with flow restrictors to fill your cylinders at a rate agreed between Bauer and the cylinder manufacturers, if you wish to fill slower release the lever for a few seconds, especially when filling from empty, as for water cooling as in the dive industry well it wouldnt work very well as carbon does not have very good heat transfer properties unlike a steel dive cylinder.
The yellow panels we sometimes use allow you to decide the fill rate but are more open to abuse and possible flash fills so untill they are modified they are in retirement.
As leaders in the filling industry we have taken steps to educate the end user as to the does and donts of filling, these will become public knowledge soon and will be enforced at Paris and all events we supply.
A little more care is reqd and our sport will grow safely.
Any questions can be answered at events.

Trevor

Whats the safe fill rate in the scuba world?


http://www.p8ntballer-forums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=28777


Ultimate Air Fill Station

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

H-PAC working with Bauer UK (SAS) have completed their state of the art mobile air fill station, this is based on an articulated vehicle purpose built to promote the sport of paintball and give the ultimate air fill station for your events, this is suitable for events of up to 200 x 7 man teams, using the fill tables designed by H-PAC for high speed delivery of up to 4500psi fills safely.
Air is supplied to breathing air spec and unit is fully certified.
This unit will go anywhere in Europe and is availiable for hire with trained operators, please contact us on 0044 902 494988 for rates and availiability.
Unit will be at the UKPSF trade fair after supplying the air at the UKs premier Indoor Event the Zap European Indoor on 7/8th Feb.
H-PAC supply and install full site systems to the UK paintball Industry and are sole Bauer compressor suppliers to the UK paintball market.
For safe air delivery at your events why settle for less,use the ultimate team H-PAC and Bauer compressors, after all unsafe air delivery and quality will damage your markers and your reputation.

Meets breathing air specs, I want some.

[SlartyBartFast]

as for water cooling as in the dive industry well it wouldnt work very well as carbon does not have very good heat transfer properties unlike a steel dive cylinder.

And water cooling is useless for SCUBA as well.

I've posted numerous links in other threads on filling HPA cylinders....

[Sam5992]

I know that many players think that filling an Air system in "no big deal"
but according to the NSERA and APL {paintball specific Insurance} Only trained and certified staff are to perform air fills.


is that a law? Or just a suggestion? Because paintball places can be very persnickity about insurance. I dont blame them either, but i cant believe they dont care about something like that. Filling is not hard, but if you screw around you could hurt yourself or someone....

why did he/she put lube on the fill nipple?

[Beemer]

why did he/she put lube on the fill nipple?

Best guess was to try and seal a leak[o-ring] or a sticking pin.

[Beemer]

Response to Madrid bottle failure

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Most of you will be aware of the bottle and reg explosion that occurred during the Millennium event in Madrid. Fortunately, no one was injured in the blast and the person responsible legged it before they could be caught. However, the incident has alerted bottle manufacturers and other companies to the need for greater safety, resulting in The Millennium and Hpac getting together to launch an investigation into the explosion.

The Millennium has now published the findings of the report and has just released the following statement:

“They [Hpac] concluded that there was no failure in either the regulator or the bottle and that the incident occurred due to the misuse of a butane and oil mix sprayed into the regulator prior to filling which cased the mixture to ignite on filling and resulted in the bottle and regulator detaching.”

Due to the incident being down to human error, the Millennium's investigation has concluded that "it is safe to fill bottles as before" but recommendations have been made in regards to general issues of safety:

Hpac said; “We have...concluded that we must educate the players more and implement greater safety awareness and procedures so as to prevent such an incident from happening again. Starting in Paris all players will be required to sign an information sheet containing all necessary safety information and safe practice. Also all bottles and regs will be subject to greater scrutiny and security stickers ... will [be] attached to each system. Removal of these during any Millennium event will result in the elimination of that player for the rest of the event.”

For additional information please visit www.millennium-series.com

In response to the Madrid incident, Smart Parts also released the following statement:

“Following a recent accident at a European paintball tournament, we would like to remind the users of Max-Flo compressed air systems - and all other brands of compressed air systems - that no oil or any petroleum based cleaner or lubricant should ever be put into paintball compressed air regulators or tanks. Some players have taken to the practice of using oil as a stop-gap measure, believing it is a correct way to repair a damaged or worn fill nipple seal. Unfortunately, this can create a hazardous situation. When exposed to compressed air, flammable liquids such as oil become more flammable, and in some cases can ignite just from their own heat. For this reason, compressed air regulators, tanks and fittings for paintball should not be lubricated in any way other than what the manufacturer has specified in their instructions. Max-Flo compressed air systems should only be lubricated with SL33K paintgun lubricant, and only as prescribed in the Max-Flo instruction manual."

For more information visit www.SmartParts.com

So there you go peeps. The message is loud and clear; please be safe when you're filling up and make sure that oil and compressed air systems are never mixed together. Look out for this month's issue of PGi where there will be a full run-down on Paintball safety...

http://www.p8ntballer-forums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=65873

http://www.spirit-of-paint.com/viewtopic.php?t=17665&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/5609/teille0lg.jpg