Bolt Stick headache

[jc127]

Hello,

I recently dug my 68 automag out of the closet and started upgrading it. The only original parts left on the gun are the rail, sear and sear pivot pin.

Heres my setup:

ULE Body
ULE Trigger Frame
ULE on/off valve
X-valve w/ lvl 10
high pressure cross fire tank



I've got the largest carrier installed that doesn't leak, and I have been careful to use the same o-ring each time i change carriers. I have the stock (gold) spring installed as I can't get the gun to chrono under 300 with the red or long spring. I have two shims in the power tube (the most I get without leakage), and 4 shims in the on/off assembly (it starts to shoot double with 5). My problem is the bolt sticks and I can't seem to get it fixed. The gun will shoot perfectly for a while (maybe 30-40 shots) then the bolt sticks. I have it well lubed also. When the bolt sticks bleeding the air via the asa and recharging seems to recock the gun, but it sticks soon after. Somtimes just waiting a few minutes and it shoots again. However this isn't much fun during a game :cry: . I have also noticed that the gun leaks down the power tube when the tirgger is held. Any tips or suggestions would be great.

[kingpen509]

Well I have also had this problem and usually it comes down to the tension in the two bolts holding the trigger frame on, the thumb screw and the other one. Loosen them up or tighten them down accordingly. If done correctly it should fix your prob. I read somewhere that AGD advises finger tightening and then a quarter turn for both bolts.

I hope it helps!~

[dreadpirate]

Hello,

I recently dug my 68 automag out of the closet and started upgrading it. The only original parts left on the gun are the rail, sear and sear pivot pin.

Heres my setup:

ULE Body
ULE Trigger Frame
ULE on/off valve
X-valve w/ lvl 10
high pressure cross fire tank


I've got the largest carrier installed that doesn't leak, and I have been careful to use the same o-ring each time i change carriers. I have the stock (gold) spring installed as I can't get the gun to chrono under 300 with the red or long spring. I have two shims in the power tube (the most I get without leakage), and 4 shims in the on/off assembly (it starts to shoot double with 5). My problem is the bolt sticks and I can't seem to get it fixed. The gun will shoot perfectly for a while (maybe 30-40 shots) then the bolt sticks. I have it well lubed also. When the bolt sticks bleeding the air via the asa and recharging seems to recock the gun, but it sticks soon after. Somtimes just waiting a few minutes and it shoots again. However this isn't much fun during a game :cry: . I have also noticed that the gun leaks down the power tube when the tirgger is held. Any tips or suggestions would be great.

I have the exact same issue with the exact same setup, crossfire tank included. Thanks for the tip, I'll have to try it.

[jc127]

I have the exact same issue with the exact same setup, crossfire tank included. Thanks for the tip, I'll have to try it.

I will try it too, let me know if it solves your problem. I've read on the forum that bolt stick might be due to the rail's slot(the zig shaped slot, that the locking pin on the bolt seats into) being worn. Has anyone had this cause their bolt to stick? Mine rail rail is pretty old and worn.

[Coralis]

you might also try backing out the ball detent some too .... I have heard that sometimes the can be screwed in to far and hang up the bolt and its easy to check

[jc127]

you might also try backing out the ball detent some too .... I have heard that sometimes the can be screwed in to far and hang up the bolt and its easy to check


I will give that a try also, thanks.

[dreadpirate]

Hello,

I recently dug my 68 automag out of the closet and started upgrading it. The only original parts left on the gun are the rail, sear and sear pivot pin.

Heres my setup:

ULE Body
ULE Trigger Frame
ULE on/off valve
X-valve w/ lvl 10
high pressure cross fire tank



I've got the largest carrier installed that doesn't leak, and I have been careful to use the same o-ring each time i change carriers. I have the stock (gold) spring installed as I can't get the gun to chrono under 300 with the red or long spring. I have two shims in the power tube (the most I get without leakage), and 4 shims in the on/off assembly (it starts to shoot double with 5). My problem is the bolt sticks and I can't seem to get it fixed. The gun will shoot perfectly for a while (maybe 30-40 shots) then the bolt sticks. I have it well lubed also. When the bolt sticks bleeding the air via the asa and recharging seems to recock the gun, but it sticks soon after. Somtimes just waiting a few minutes and it shoots again. However this isn't much fun during a game :cry: . I have also noticed that the gun leaks down the power tube when the tirgger is held. Any tips or suggestions would be great.

Ok, so I took the gun to the local paintgun shop which has an uncertified automag tech, since they fired the certified one for incompetence. In about 15 minutes, he managed to determine that the problem was the ULE on/off valve. Mine had 7 shims installed, as recieved from the factory, which is not even supposed to be possible. Throwing in a standard RT valve fixed the issue, though now I have a much more stiff pull. Apparently it is a fairly common problem with the ULE on/off. I am still debating whether or not I want to buy a new on/off to try again.

[flyingpootang]

To start off the L10 shims are used to reset the bolt if it sences a ball partially seated. The shims in the ULT are used to lighten the trigger. Tune the ULT first then the L10 bolt. Note the L10 and ULT shims are different thickness, but can be mixed to fine tune your L10 or ULT.

To tune your ULT start with 2 shims and fire the marker. Add 1 shim at a time until it goes full auto, then remove 1 shim.

To tune your L10 use no shims and place a squegee about 1/4" in front of the bolt and fire it. The bolt should stay forwad and not reset. Add 1 shim at a time and fire it agian with the squegee 1/4" in fornt of the bolt until it resets.

[jc127]

I tried taking the ULE on/off out of the equation, didnt seem to make any difference. Right now i have it in with 4 shims, with 5 its started to go full auto. I'm going to try tighting the bolts as recommended.

[flyingpootang]

I tried taking the ULE on/off out of the equation, didnt seem to make any difference. Right now i have it in with 4 shims, with 5 its started to go full auto. I'm going to try tighting the bolts as recommended.

You REMOVE 1 shim at a time until its one shot one pull...

[jc127]

You REMOVE 1 shim at a time until its one shot one pull...

yeah I know... thats why i said I have 4 in now, when 5 caused it to full auto....

[dreadpirate]

To start off the L10 shims are used to reset the bolt if it sences a ball partially seated. The shims in the ULT are used to lighten the trigger. Tune the ULT first then the L10 bolt. Note the L10 and ULT shims are different thickness, but can be mixed to fine tune your L10 or ULT.

To tune your ULT start with 2 shims and fire the marker. Add 1 shim at a time until it goes full auto, then remove 1 shim.

To tune your L10 use no shims and place a squegee about 1/4" in front of the bolt and fire it. The bolt should stay forwad and not reset. Add 1 shim at a time and fire it agian with the squegee 1/4" in fornt of the bolt until it resets.

So, what do I do if the ULT came with 7 shims already installed, not going full auto and with 2, it hisses all over, and any non-leaking combination inbetween, still exhibits stick? And is it normal for a stock RT on/off to shortstroke any time I pull the trigger faster than 9 or 10 bps?

[Coralis]

no its not normal .... not sure whats going on there but its not normal .

[flyingpootang]

I don't know how you got 7 shims in your ULT. The maximum is 5, but as long as it dosen't go full auto it's all good.

From your post it seems your are confusing the ULT and Level 10 bolt

Bolt stick ie not restting is cured as described by tunning the L10.

The ULT is shimmed to give you the lighest trigger by adding shims, but if to many are installed it will go full auto.

Now your saying it's sticking. If you mean your bolt is not restting see tunning the L10. If your trigger is not returnning then oil the crap out of your ULT (also known as on/off assy by Level 7 regulators)

[flyingpootang]

Short stroking is possible on a RT on/off. To avoid this raise the output to 900-950 and find a sweet spot on your trigger when your finger position will cause the trigger to bounce. The reason why most judges tried to band the RT's from being allowed in tourneys. The higher the outpot of your tank he more reactivity....

[athomas]

A sticking level 10 can increase the ability to short stroke the retro valve. Bolt stick makes the comeplete fire and charge cycle take longer, so less time is available to recharge your valve. If you pull the trigger too quickly after the on-off assembly is opened, then you short stroke your gun because the pressure has not yet reached a high enough value to effectively cycle the marker.

Level 10 shims for the most part are not needed. Only use them if you are having issues with the bolt not resetting on a chuffed shot. If the bolt moves any distance at all, even without shims, the bolt will reset. The shims do allow you to fine tune the actual distance that the bolt must move before it vents and resets. We are talking 10/1000ths of inches, not 1/4" of movement.

Holding the trigger back on a level 10 bolt will allow a tiny hiss of air to escape out the front. The lack of tightness on the powertube oring, allows a poor seal under reduced pressure conditions. There is always a bit of residual pressure in the chamber after a shot is fired and it will weep until it is reduced further.

[dreadpirate]

I don't know how you got 7 shims in your ULT. The maximum is 5, but as long as it dosen't go full auto it's all good.

From your post it seems your are confusing the ULT and Level 10 bolt

Bolt stick ie not restting is cured as described by tunning the L10.

The ULT is shimmed to give you the lighest trigger by adding shims, but if to many are installed it will go full auto.

Now your saying it's sticking. If you mean your bolt is not restting see tunning the L10. If your trigger is not returnning then oil the crap out of your ULT (also known as on/off assy by Level 7 regulators)

FYI, I started a separate thread on this, so as not to hijack it.

I didn't install the 7 shims on the ULT, it came that way, and there is still a very small amount of play between the two halves after threading them together beyond the point where they become loose again.

Tuning the L10 has done nothing for me, it still sticks even when the carrier is so large as to cause leakage down the barrel. As shipped, it had the tightest carrier possible installed. I could barely push it onto the power tube by hand when I was testing the size. The currently installed one is the largest I could go without leakage, but the o-ring seems to swell over time, making it a tighter fit.

It is really hard to tell which it is doing. During play, when it stops firing, the trigger fails to return. Most, but not all the time, I can use a squeegie and push on the bolt ever so slightly. I cannot feel any discernable movement of the bolt, but the whole thing 'clicks' back into place... by 'oil the crap out of', do you mean, lubricate the o-rings, or literally douse the whole thing? The motion of the pin through the orings does seem fairly stiff when I push one end or the other with my finger, on both the standard RT on/off, and the ULT.

Also, in response to the suggestion of raising my output pressure, my tank is preregulated at 850-900 psi.

[flyingpootang]

A sticking level 10 can increase the ability to short stroke the retro valve. Bolt stick makes the comeplete fire and charge cycle take longer, so less time is available to recharge your valve. If you pull the trigger too quickly after the on-off assembly is opened, then you short stroke your gun because the pressure has not yet reached a high enough value to effectively cycle the marker.

Level 10 shims for the most part are not needed. Only use them if you are having issues with the bolt not resetting on a chuffed shot. If the bolt moves any distance at all, even without shims, the bolt will reset. The shims do allow you to fine tune the actual distance that the bolt must move before it vents and resets. We are talking 10/1000ths of inches, not 1/4" of movement.

Holding the trigger back on a level 10 bolt will allow a tiny hiss of air to escape out the front. The lack of tightness on the powertube oring, allows a poor seal under reduced pressure conditions. There is always a bit of residual pressure in the chamber after a shot is fired and it will weep until it is reduced further.

If you read my post I didn't say the bolt has to move 1/4 of an inch in oreder to vent. You place a squigee 1/4" in front of the bolt to simulate a ball being chopped. Now if your saying the bolt only needs to move 10/1000ths of an inch to vent YOU ARE DEAD WRONG. If that were the case the bolt would constantly vent causing a leak :confused: :confused: :confused: Do you know how thick 10/1000 of an inch is????

[athomas]

If you read my post I didn't say the bolt has to move 1/4 of an inch in oreder to vent. You place a squigee 1/4" in front of the bolt to simulate a ball being chopped. Now if your saying the bolt only needs to move 10/1000ths of an inch to vent YOU ARE DEAD WRONG. If that were the case the bolt would constantly vent causing a leak :confused: :confused: :confused: Do you know how thick 10/1000 of an inch is????

You stated that you tested the setup by putting a squeegie 1/4" in front of the bolt and increasing the amount of shims until it started resetting. That would indicate that the bolt needs to travel approximately 1/4" in order for the shims to have an effect. In fact, even with no shims at all, any bolt that moves 1/4" will vent if it stops on an object in the breach.

The shims are 10/1000's of an inch thick. So by adding or subtracting shims, you are adjusting the carrier oring in 10/1000s of an inch increments. That amount can determine whether the bolt vent hole becomes exposed or not. A bolt at rest ideally does not vent. Any forward motion of the bolt that puts it far enough forward that the sear cannot reset must expose the vent hole or the bolt will not reset if it chuffs and/or sticks. By pushing the carrier oring back in 10/1000s of an inch increments we can make that adjustment so that any forward motion exposes the vent hole.

The vent hole is so close to the carrier oring anyway that almost any forward motion will expose the vent hole even without adjusting the amount of shims. Most of the time the shims are never needed and can cause problems in the tuning of the level 10 carrier tightness.

[flyingpootang]

What doyou not understand???again a squigee is placed 1/4" to simulate a ball being part way feed not the amount need to get the Level 10 bolt to vent. The 1/4" distance I gave is only a referance, so I don't have to write another reply when someone ask "how close dose the squigee have to be"?. if the bolt hits the squigee and dosen't rest you need to add 1 shim. This is straight from AGD the nice people who engineered the level 10 etc, so I think they now what their talking about

" Shim adjustments
Put a squeegee right in front of the bolt and pull the trigger. With very little clearance between the bolt and squeegee you will notice that the bolt comes forward and just stops on the squeegee. Then nothing else happens. Pulling the trigger does nothing to reset the bolt. In order to get the bolt to reset when it pinches a ball, we have to let the air out of the air chamber. The shims (5) control where in the forward stroke the air chamber starts venting. Its works a lot like the spacers in the original Mags. We left them out before so you could tell the difference between a carrier leak and a shim leak.

Remove the power tube tip (7) and drop in two shims (5). Make SURE they are sitting flat in the bottom of the power tube before you screw the power tube tip on otherwise you will bend them up. Bent shims are useless and you will have to buy more. Reassemble the valve system as before using the original main spring and new Superbolt. Now when you air up the marker it should not leak but when you do the squeegee test you will notice that the air starts venting when the Superbolt moves forward. If you keep adding shims eventually the bolt will just leak all the time. For most people two shims work just fine. If you find that when you pinch a ball the marker locks up and does not reset then add another shim."

A full version can be found here: http://www.automags.org/resource/level10/index.shtml

Do you see the light now????? :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow:

[athomas]

What doyou not understand???again a squigee is placed 1/4" to simulate a ball being part way feed not the amount need to get the Level 10 bolt to vent. The 1/4" distance I gave is only a referance, so I don't have to write another reply when someone ask "how close dose the squigee have to be"?. if the bolt hits the squigee and dosen't rest you need to add 1 shim. This is straight from AGD the nice people who engineered the level 10 etc, so I think they now what their talking about
I understand the concept very well. thank you. I think you do too. We are both on the same page, but you made the statement and are now quoting AGD to support what you are saying. However, the statement that you made was not what AGD stated. You stated that if a bolt hits a squeegie that is placed 1/4" in front of the bolt and doesn't reset, you need to add a shim. That is not what AGD stated. Even without any shims, the bolt should vent if it travels 1/4". If it sticks at 1/4", it nothing to do with the shims. You can test the functionality of the level 10 using the 1/4" placement but not the shim adjustment. The shim adjustment can only be tested by placing the squeegie against the front of the bolt, pulling the trigger and gently allowing the bolt to move forward. How far it moves before venting, determines how many
shims can be used.

[flyingpootang]

I understand the concept very well. thank you. I think you do too. We are both on the same page, but you made the statement and are now quoting AGD to support what you are saying. However, the statement that you made was not what AGD stated. You stated that if a bolt hits a squeegie that is placed 1/4" in front of the bolt and doesn't reset, you need to add a shim. That is not what AGD stated. Even without any shims, the bolt should vent if it travels 1/4". If it sticks at 1/4", it nothing to do with the shims. You can test the functionality of the level 10 using the 1/4" placement but not the shim adjustment. The shim adjustment can only be tested by placing the squeegie against the front of the bolt, pulling the trigger and gently allowing the bolt to move forward. How far it moves before venting, determines how many
shims can be used.

Ok the point that you still do not relize is that as per AGD and me a squigee is placed in front of the bolt to simulate a ball being chopped. AGAIN THE REFERANCE OF 1/4" IS JUST A REFERANCE POINT. AGD said "near the bolt" I gave a distance of 1/4" is so the person having trouble will have a REFERANCE POINT HOW FAR TO PLACE THE SQUIGEE FROM THE FACE OF THE BOLT :tard: :tard: :tard: :tard: :tard: :tard:


If your going to respond to this please show me where I said the bolt must travel 1/4" to vent and maybe then you'll see the light :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: . JEEEEEEEZ

[athomas]

To tune your L10 use no shims and place a squegee about 1/4" in front of the bolt and fire it. The bolt should stay forwad and not reset. Add 1 shim at a time and fire it agian with the squegee 1/4" in fornt of the bolt until it resets.

You said it first in #8 then in several other responses. I didn't make up the quotes that I listed. You specifically stated 1/4" and you keep laying out insults to justify your statement, which I might add, is very immature. I even stated that I was agreeing with you, even though what you stated was a little different than the way I put it. I only made the numbers a little more specific. You didn't understand that concept either. Note that I'm not stuping to calling you a retard or anything. I don't think that anyone here is. I do think you are unjustified in throughing out insults like a cornered child. That is more suited to PBnation, which this is not.

If it upsets you that much that I am giving specific numbers that I know are correct, then I will stop. I don't want to upset you anymore. :rolleyes:

[flyingpootang]

Sorry, but it dosen't say that 1/4" is needed to get the bolt to reset. JUST LIKE I'VE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG. Try reading and understanding before you post. It might keep you from looking well :tard: :tard: :tard: :tard: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[dreadpirate]

What doyou not understand???again a squigee is placed 1/4" to simulate a ball being part way feed not the amount need to get the Level 10 bolt to vent. The 1/4" distance I gave is only a referance, so I don't have to write another reply when someone ask "how close dose the squigee have to be"?. if the bolt hits the squigee and dosen't rest you need to add 1 shim. This is straight from AGD the nice people who engineered the level 10 etc, so I think they now what their talking about

" Shim adjustments
Put a squeegee right in front of the bolt and pull the trigger. With very little clearance between the bolt and squeegee you will notice that the bolt comes forward and just stops on the squeegee. Then nothing else happens. Pulling the trigger does nothing to reset the bolt. In order to get the bolt to reset when it pinches a ball, we have to let the air out of the air chamber. The shims (5) control where in the forward stroke the air chamber starts venting. Its works a lot like the spacers in the original Mags. We left them out before so you could tell the difference between a carrier leak and a shim leak.


Ah hah! -That- is the problem I thought -I- had, however, adding one extra shim did not do the job, and I can't for the life of me remember exactly what the problem was, but it made things far worse. I wonder now though if the insane number of ULT shims might have been complicating my symptoms. Perhaps with the stock on/off I have in there, I can fine tune the carrier, then shims, -then-, once I know everything works, reinstall the ULT with the smallest number of shims that won't leak, and tune that. With lots and lots of oil, as well. Anyone know how to safely oil the ULT without risking that tiny micrometers-thick pin?