"I DO NOT SHIP FIRST UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES" Thoughts?

[Lohman446]

Honest line out of the BST forum. Ironically from a person who has minimal posts on the board. Personally when I see a line like this, regardless of any deal there, I simply decide not to deal with the person for attitude reasons. Its not a safety issue, I have no problem shipping first to the right person with adequate feedback, or someone I have "known" for long enough. It just strikes me when people instantly expect that they are so trustworthy to not have to ship first under any circumstance that they are not someone I want to deal with. I understand a reluctance to ship first but isn't this statement going a little far? There is a risk to both sides in any trading, and to state regardless of anything else you won't take that risk seems a bit... well its not an attitude I want to deal with

Thoughts? Am I just being equally a jerk about it? Personally I don't care. I don't need to do business with anyone and when I get that attiude I simply don't. Am I the only one?

[Pneumagger]

I would tell the guy to go to ebay then. I mean, if he's an average to newer member.

I feel there is no problem shipping first to someone who is a trusted member by most. The odds of a frequent good trader sacrificing his good name to possibly scam you are pretty slim.

But some people don't feel safe. And that can be understandable. Perhaps thay would go the third party route.

[Skittle]

I agree with you, noone wants to deal with anyone like that. Espically when they have no credability (sp?). Its a pretty stupid statement. I wouldnt do buisness with anyone like that.

I dont post a whole lot, however I do read a lot and that leads me to believe you probably are being a jerk about it.

[Lohman446]

The thing is, I tend to read from bottom up. I read that and instantly decided I did not want to deal wtih the person. Now there are other reasons I was not even interested, but I just read that and thought, wow - no way would I deal with someone who worded it that way. When I see "I have feedback and probably will not be shipping first" it doesn't bother me. When I see I will not, end of discussion... well it is.

[hitech]

Am I the only one?

Nope, I'd be the same way. I don't really trade, but attitude is soemthing I look for when deciding to buy...

:cheers:

[BigEvil]

That person is so concerned about being ripped off, but has no concept that anyone else would be as well.

I read immaturity into things like that and avoid these people at all costs. Most of the time whatever you are getting would not be worth the grief it takes to get it. You see a ton of BS like that on PBN. If someone has 6 posts, no feedback, then why should I trust that person, and then what the hell is the feedback system for?

[ShooterJM]

Honest line out of the BST forum. Ironically from a person who has minimal posts on the board. Personally when I see a line like this, regardless of any deal there, I simply decide not to deal with the person for attitude reasons. Its not a safety issue, I have no problem shipping first to the right person with adequate feedback, or someone I have "known" for long enough. It just strikes me when people instantly expect that they are so trustworthy to not have to ship first under any circumstance that they are not someone I want to deal with. I understand a reluctance to ship first but isn't this statement going a little far? There is a risk to both sides in any trading, and to state regardless of anything else you won't take that risk seems a bit... well its not an attitude I want to deal with

Thoughts? Am I just being equally a jerk about it? Personally I don't care. I don't need to do business with anyone and when I get that attiude I simply don't. Am I the only one?

No, I feel the exact same way. I've read many posts like that and laughed.

[CKY_Alliance]

I've done many on line gun trades, some money involved others not and i had no problem shipping first when the person had adequate(sp?) feedback, of course i would generally call them and talk to them on the phone,just makes me feel better, well this was untill my last ordeal..where i had to get police involved and wait like 2 months for the gun while the guy had my gun on his possesion i made a thread about it..after this i've considered putting I dont not ship first in my Bs/t threads and if people don't like it then they will just have to move along...I dont know though after nearly loseing 1,000+ dollars worth of gear im leary about shipping first, then again at almost the same time as the proto trade i sold my dm4 to a gentlmen, and i shipped first and only thing keeping him from stealing my gun was a whole 100 dollars...not much, i forgot the point i was trying to make...

[wimag]

[QUOTE=Lohman446]
Thoughts? Am I just being equally a jerk about it? QUOTE]

yes you are. sorry dude that is just my thought on it. you could have handled this better as opposed to singling this person out. If he did not directly offend you by PM or text then this thread is not really necessary.

[AutomagRT1483]

Nothing wrong with saying that. I do it in all of my FS/FT threads and I have everything come through ok. You need to understand that there is the rip off factor to be accounted for in every trade. Luckily, when I put that statement in mine it keeps the potential for rip offs to a bare minimum. And yes, I have been ripped off before and Im sure it may happen again. But I look at it as a sense of security in a dealing with someone you may only know by there reputation on the internet and have yet to meet that person face to face. ;)

[SpitFire1299]

I have had a person ship first with that in there topic.. its just one of things for stupid kids with ions and no feedback......... i would hope.

[Lohman446]

yes you are. sorry dude that is just my thought on it. you could have handled this better as opposed to singling this person out. If he did not directly offend you by PM or text then this thread is not really necessary.

I didn't name names, and it happens enough :). Now, might I be being a jerk. Sure, I admit that, I often am. The thing is, well I just am and Im ok with that. I did take some effort though not to single out any person by name, and it is fairly common.

[back2integrity]

You're not being a jerk. If somebody isn't even willing to ship first to someone like Tunaman or Rogue, then they are the ones with a problem most likely. Yes, I understand the fear of being scammed, but how many businesses would say "Ok, we'll send you the item first and you pay us when it arrives." And some of the traders and business owners here on AO have far better customer service than many popular online stores.

[hitech]

[...singling this person out.

Who was singled out?!?

[warbeak2099]

I guess they're trying to use a sort of reverse psychology to prove that they're trustworthy. They're trying to elicit the response, "wow this guy doesn't have time for BS" or, "hey he's no nonsense".

[wimag]

Who was singled out?!?

the person he pulled the original reference for. not really up for all the copying and pasting sutff so please reread the first sentence of his post and subsequent posts. If they can figure it out i am sure the person it was directed at can as well as you too.

i think his question is valid I am not refuting that.

And before this turns into lets read between the lines fest i will make this clear:
Is Lohman a jerk for not wanting to deal with this or any other person who indicates they will not ship first ? No not at all it is his personal decision, no problems there.I made my thought clear in my first post.

[slade]

if someone with little or no feedback and very few posts insists that they will not ship first in a trade regardless of who the other person is, that person is either a scammer or is irrational, and in either scenario i will not deal with them.

I mostly buy and sell. ive only had one trade, and i shipped first. most of the people who post regularly on this forum i would have no problem shipping first to.

[Lohman446]

the person he pulled the original reference for. not really up for all the copying and pasting sutff so please reread the first sentence of his post and subsequent posts. If they can figure it out i am sure the person it was directed at can as well as you too.

i think his question is valid I am not refuting that.

And before this turns into lets read between the lines fest i will make this clear:
Is Lohman a jerk for not wanting to deal with this or any other person who indicates they will not ship first ? No not at all it is his personal decision, no problems there.I made my thought clear in my first post.

Althought the particular example comes from one person (of course any example does) I did make the post with no intent of singling any individual out for criticism. As has been noted other people do it as well (some well respected members). I didn't link, or call anyone by name. Was it singling someone out? I don't think so, but it is a judgement call.

[dahoeb]

you have to have at least some flexibility when trading or selling, i don't think youre being unreasonably "jerky", lohman

[Lohman446]

you have to have at least some flexibility when trading or selling, i don't think youre being unreasonably "jerky", lohman

That was my general feeling. If it was a deal that I wanted and I read

I generally do not ship first or something along those lines than its no big deal and I will plan on shipping first or at the same time.

If I read - under no circumstance - or something similiar, I just immediatly decide I don't want to deal with that person. I was just wondering if I'm alone. I tend to be a jerk from time to time, so sometimes my reactions are not a great view of the reactions of people in general.

[wimag]

Althought the particular example comes from one person (of course any example does) I did make the post with no intent of singling any individual out for criticism. As has been noted other people do it as well (some well respected members). I didn't link, or call anyone by name. Was it singling someone out? I don't think so, but it is a judgement call.

i dont think you are a malicous person and you are correct it is a judgement call.

[Steelrat]

I rank "I do not ship first under any circumstances" right up there with "$xxxx FIRM," "No lowballs," and "post here first or I will ignore you." I just plain skips ads with any such language. People who make statements like that are pretty much telling me that they are going to be a pain to negotiate with, and there are plenty of other markers out there.

[Hexis]

At least they are clear about being inflexiable. If you know up front you can make your own decision if you want to deal with the person or not.

[SpecialBlend2786]

It bothers me, moreso when the poster only has like...2 post here and/or no feedback to speak of. I usually don't do trades unless I "know" the person, just because it's a pain to coordinate everything, and dealing with someone like this just makes things worse.

[going_home]

Not to hijack the thread, but can someone logically explain why
AO feedback "is better than/means more than" Ebay feedback ?

I keep seeing people post that they accept AO feedback but Ebay
feedback doesnt count. That is illogical to me.

There is no proof by someone posting feedback on AO
that they even actually had a transaction.

Where as you cant even leave feedback on Ebay unless you had a transaction.
I'm just saying AO feedback could be ramped up by ones friends dishonestly
and thats not possible on Ebay. Well I guess technically its possible
but who would want feedback bad enough to pay Ebay fees for bogus auctions ?

[slade]

Not to hijack the thread, but can someone logically explain why
AO feedback "is better than/means more than" Ebay feedback ?

I keep seeing people post that they accept AO feedback but Ebay
feedback doesnt count. That is illogical to me.

There is no proof by someone posting feedback on AO
that they even actually had a transaction.

Where as you cant even leave feedback on Ebay unless you had a transaction.
I'm just saying AO feedback could be ramped up by ones friends dishonestly
and thats not possible on Ebay. Well I guess technically its possible
but who would want feedback bad enough to pay Ebay fees for bogus auctions ?
AO feedback is linked directly to the individual, there is no proof that a person on AO isnt linking to another persons ebay feedback link. im "slade" here, "slade17" on PBN because someone else had already taken slade, and "slade2867" on ebay because someone already took slade and slade17. that means that theres at least 3 accounts that look like they could be me, and someone could easily create an account here modeled after an e-bay account.

AO allows more room to explain what happened in a transaction

you could always search AO to see if the for sale thread ever existed, and if someone has a lot of feedback, especially by people with high post counts, its most likely not fake. you only really need to be concerned if a person has the majority of their feedback from someone with few posts or transactions.

Ebay fees arent too extensive, theoretically its worth the $20 for a number of fake auctions if the person is going to make $1000 from ripping someone off with another fake auction.

if an AO deal goes wrong, there is no way to leave feedback on AO. someone with high ebay feedback could make an account here, post their ebay feedback, and rip someone off. the person who was ripped off can post feedback here, but if the person has no plan of having another transaction here, what will that do? their ebay feedback, which they actually put time and effort into forming, is still perfectly intact. and, theres no proof it was actually their feedback in the first place.

is that a good enough answer for you?

[LS1 WS6]

I have a question. I know how important feedback is even though not all feedback is totally correct. I have a good amount of feedback on here and PBN along with Ebay. I do not post in every thread I read like some do, so my # of posts is not that high. I have been on here for a while too.

How do you guys feel in a situation like that? Would you trust me on my feedback or not trust me on my limited # of posts?

About the topic at hand I would never put I do not ship first. That would be based on and individual basis. I think I would tend to stay away form someone who stated it as well.

[Lohman446]

I have a question. I know how important feedback is even though not all feedback is totally correct. I have a good amount of feedback on here and PBN along with Ebay. I do not post in every thread I read like some do, so my # of posts is not that high. I have been on here for a while too.

How do you guys feel in a situation like that? Would you trust me on my feedback or not trust me on my limited # of posts?

About the topic at hand I would never put I do not ship first. That would be based on and individual basis. I think I would tend to stay away form someone who stated it as well.

I glance at feedback and general attitude of posts on here - feedback is important to people Im not used to talking to online. The only way I worry about E-bay feedback is there is a way they can prove the correlation to them and there e-bay feedback,

[slade]

I have a question. I know how important feedback is even though not all feedback is totally correct. I have a good amount of feedback on here and PBN along with Ebay. I do not post in every thread I read like some do, so my # of posts is not that high. I have been on here for a while too.

How do you guys feel in a situation like that? Would you trust me on my feedback or not trust me on my limited # of posts?

About the topic at hand I would never put I do not ship first. That would be based on and individual basis. I think I would tend to stay away form someone who stated it as well.
i look at feedback but wont trust someone based on just that unless they have a page or more from reputable people. the impression i get from posts (or especially people knowing others in person) is more important. there are plenty of people on this forum that i would trust with $1000 of equipment.

[going_home]

AO feedback is linked directly to the individual, there is no proof that a person on AO isnt linking to another persons ebay feedback link. im "slade" here, "slade17" on PBN because someone else had already taken slade, and "slade2867" on ebay because someone already took slade and slade17. that means that theres at least 3 accounts that look like they could be me, and someone could easily create an account here modeled after an e-bay account.

AO allows more room to explain what happened in a transaction

you could always search AO to see if the for sale thread ever existed, and if someone has a lot of feedback, especially by people with high post counts, its most likely not fake. you only really need to be concerned if a person has the majority of their feedback from someone with few posts or transactions.

Ebay fees arent too extensive, theoretically its worth the $20 for a number of fake auctions if the person is going to make $1000 from ripping someone off with another fake auction.

if an AO deal goes wrong, there is no way to leave feedback on AO. someone with high ebay feedback could make an account here, post their ebay feedback, and rip someone off. the person who was ripped off can post feedback here, but if the person has no plan of having another transaction here, what will that do? their ebay feedback, which they actually put time and effort into forming, is still perfectly intact. and, theres no proof it was actually their feedback in the first place.

is that a good enough answer for you?

"you could always search AO to see if the for sale thread ever existed"

When I sell something posted FS on AO I always delete the thread.
I understood thats whats expected of members to help with the bandwidth.

"Ebay fees arent too extensive, theoretically its worth the $20 for a number of fake auctions"

I'm not talking about 20 feedbacks, if someone has several hundred and only a couple
negatives thats not feasible, paying Ebay fees for that many ?
To me 20 feedbacks is low on Ebay.

"AO allows more room to explain what happened in a transaction"

Thats the only point, to me, that you made, that would make AO feedback better than
Ebay feedback.

I still cant see anything you said that would make AO feedback more legitimate.
That was my point, Ebay feedback is more legitimate than AO feedback because
it costs money to get bogus feedback on there.
It costs nothing on AO and is easy to do without having a legitimate transaction.

[Pyroboy597]

I have never traded, sold, or bought anything from someone over the internet (paintball related items) so I have not been in the situation. There needs to be a site that can allow the buyer and seller to sign an electronic contract where they need to input a credit card number and their information (both the buyer and seller). That way if something goes wrong you both have all the information and you both signed the contract.

[Skittle]

I have never traded, sold, or bought anything from someone over the internet (paintball related items) so I have not been in the situation. There needs to be a site that can allow the buyer and seller to sign an electronic contract where they need to input a credit card number and their information (both the buyer and seller). That way if something goes wrong you both have all the information and you both signed the contract.

its called paypal or 3rd party trading, my friend.

[back2integrity]

MOST people will only leave positive feedback on eBay, as a negative feedback can be left as retaliation. Once left, there is nothing that can be done about it except a mutual withdrawal. This can tarnish someone who did nothing wrong except leave factual feedback.

So, most feedback left is mutually "positive", because there is something for a good eBayer to lose if they leave negative feedback.

Which ultimately means that the feedback ratings arent a realistic picture of feedback, but largely skewed to the postive. A pretty good eBay marketing tool, if you ask me, used to make it look like everyone is a "positive" trader.

While there are exceptions to this, it is generally the rule. Ive been burned by eBayers with very high feedback.

Ive found forum feedback allot more realistic, and therefore allot more legitimate.


ditto. I too have been burned by ebayers with high feedback because nobody wants to tarnish their own feedback score by posting the negative experiences they had with them. I've never been burned on a transaction I started in AO. (Because the feedback here has extended explanations usually and I have a pretty good idea of who I am dealing with).

[slade]

"you could always search AO to see if the for sale thread ever existed"

When I sell something posted FS on AO I always delete the thread.
I understood thats whats expected of members to help with the bandwidth.

"Ebay fees arent too extensive, theoretically its worth the $20 for a number of fake auctions"

I'm not talking about 20 feedbacks, if someone has several hundred and only a couple
negatives thats not feasible, paying Ebay fees for that many ?
To me 20 feedbacks is low on Ebay.

"AO allows more room to explain what happened in a transaction"

Thats the only point, to me, that you made, that would make AO feedback better than
Ebay feedback.

I still cant see anything you said that would make AO feedback more legitimate.
That was my point, Ebay feedback is more legitimate than AO feedback because
it costs money to get bogus feedback on there.
It costs nothing on AO and is easy to do without having a legitimate transaction.
youre trying to put a bandaid on a bullet wound.


"When I sell something posted FS on AO I always delete the thread."

most people dont do that. it wasnt meant to be an absolute solution, it was meant to be a way to help reassure yourself if you are questioning whether or not to do buisness with someone. remember, almost anything online can be faked. yeah, even ebay feedback *gasp*!

"I'm not talking about 20 feedbacks, if someone has several hundred and only a couple
negatives thats not feasible, paying Ebay fees for that many ?
To me 20 feedbacks is low on Ebay."

i love how you completely ignored my statement that a link posted here to ebay feedback is not necessarily that of the person with the account here, and even if it is, if the deal goes bad, you cannot leave feedback for them on ebay. if they rip you off, you cannot damage their feedback score. those were my two most important arguments, but you chose to address a few other trivial points.

[Pyroboy597]

its called paypal or 3rd party trading, my friend.

Considering I have used Paypal a dozen times, not sure why I did not think of that :tard:

[1337caesar]

While I have never used the "under any circumstances" condition I have stated that I will not ship first, the only reason for that was that I needed a gun to play with and didnt want to be gunless for an extended period. Its probly not that common because so many people have backup markers but I think many people have gone through times when they couldnt go without their main marker for up to 3 weeks. Its just another perspective... :)

[going_home]

i love how you completely ignored my statement that a link posted here to ebay feedback is not necessarily that of the person with the account here, and even if it is, if the deal goes bad, you cannot leave feedback for them on ebay. if they rip you off, you cannot damage their feedback score. those were my two most important arguments, but you chose to address a few other trivial points.

I didnt understand a word of it when you posted it before.
I had no idea that was the point you were making. Sorry.

But heres the answer to that delima, email them from both AO and Ebay
the same exact questions and watch for the answers.
You will be able to tell if its the same person by the answers,
and of course the return email address.

And to Rogues reply, I too have been ripped off once or twice on Ebay......
.......and on AO. There is more of a penalty on Ebay, I dont see any penalty on AO.
But I do have to admit its excruciatingly frustrating to have an Ebayer win your auction
and then they never ever email or send payment. Usually have zero feedbacks.
Some 13 year old playing around.

Thanks guys, I wondered if there was something I was missing
on the "AO feedback is superior to Ebay feedback" attitude of many AO'ers.
There wasnt. Honestly I guess its just preference. Thats the bottom line.

[Dubstar112]

Before the population of AO grew so rapidly, this was never an issue. The more people you get the chances of somone being dishonest goes up. Thats what AO relies on. Bad apples will surface quickly because time is the rule, the longer you've been here the more reputable you make yourself the better you are viewed as a person. The concept that theres nothing forcing you to be honest here, but if you are and quite consistently honest then repuation follows. If you resist the temptation as an idea to scam, then you must be honest. Thats how I would characterize the situation here. Thats my 2 cents.

[Pneumagger]

^^^ Agreed

[ttink]

In my honest opinion people with no feedback o reputation should ship second. Nowadays it is just too big of a risk to trust them with your money. It does make me mad though, because its all the rage on PbNation. There plenty of great deals but also alot of scammers...

[1337caesar]

In my honest opinion people with no feedback o reputation should ship second. Nowadays it is just too big of a risk to trust them with your money. It does make me mad though, because its all the rage on PbNation. There plenty of great deals but also alot of scammers...

QFT

Or use a third party

[punkncat]

I rank "I do not ship first under any circumstances" right up there with "$xxxx FIRM," "No lowballs," and "post here first or I will ignore you." I just plain skips ads with any such language. People who make statements like that are pretty much telling me that they are going to be a pain to negotiate with, and there are plenty of other markers out there.

I rank the "post here first" in a different category as its helpful as a seller to see who you are dealing with and in what order. Its quite common for users to have different names between email, forums, and paypal, etc. Working out who has what, where it goes and who to give feedback to is much easier when you have an easily found public spot recording it.



In regards to the original post. I wouldn't word it that way, but I won't ship first for a cash deal.(if I were selling a marker or goods for cash)
If its a trade then I refer to feedback.

[Steelrat]

I rank the "post here first" in a different category as its helpful as a seller to see who you are dealing with and in what order. Its quite common for users to have different names between email, forums, and paypal, etc. Working out who has what, where it goes and who to give feedback to is much easier when you have an easily found public spot recording it.



In regards to the original post. I wouldn't word it that way, but I won't ship first for a cash deal.(if I were selling a marker or goods for cash)
If its a trade then I refer to feedback.

I don't think it usually has anything to do with keeping track of offers. I think it has more to do with getting as many "ups" as they can. God knows I have sold TONS of stuff, and I've never had to resort to forcing everyone to post on the thread first. To me, and offer is an offer. I don't like people setting dictatorial terms in their ads. They are free to do as they like, but I'm also free to bypass their sale.

[back2integrity]

I don't think it usually has anything to do with keeping track of offers. I think it has more to do with getting as many "ups" as they can. God knows I have sold TONS of stuff, and I've never had to resort to forcing everyone to post on the thread first. To me, and offer is an offer. I don't like people setting dictatorial terms in their ads. They are free to do as they like, but I'm also free to bypass their sale.


Many times (for me at least) it does have to do with keeping track of stuff. You only get 150 PMs in your box, and when I made my "115+ items for sale thread" that thing was filled up in like 3 days. I was forced to delete many PMs in order to keep it from filling up, and if it wasn't for the people that posted in my thread I might have messed up an order or two.

But yes, the ups are usually the main reason we want people to post in the thread first.

Also, for like my Dallara Mag thread. If you just look at the thread, it would appear that not much interest has been shown for the Dallara body/rail or the gun. And when people don't think much interest has been shown for something, they try to lowball you or aren't willing to give good offers. In reality, i've had over 25 PM's concerning it, but you'd never know because only a few of them have actually posted in the thread.

[Lohman446]

I don't like people setting dictatorial terms in their ads. They are free to do as they like, but I'm also free to bypass their sale.

I agree there. I can cope with most anything I feel like when buying. That being said, I refuse to cope with someone who insists on being the sole controller