Question on Buzzards

[Lohman446]

The new Buzzards are using a really nice swing trigger. This is tempting me to buy a Buzzard but I am against spending $600 on a pump marker and think I might prefer an illussion. Does anyone know if this trigger frame is available elsewhere?

[warbeak2099]

I remember DYE used to make a nice single swing trigger for mech cockers. Maybe that'd fit on an Illusion?

[player4]

The new Buzzards are using a really nice swing trigger. This is tempting me to buy a Buzzard but I am against spending $600 on a pump marker and think I might prefer an illussion. Does anyone know if this trigger frame is available elsewhere?

I owned a Carter Buzzard until I quit playing paintball. They are well worth their price if you have the money. It is one of the smoothest markers I have ever used, and the trigger is amazing as you have stated. I highly recommend picking one up.

I'm pretty certain Dye did not produce these swing frames anywhere else. The new swing frames were produced (I believe) after Carter left Dye. Thus, there probably wasn't a production of frames done (lack of incentive).

[DiSoRdeR]

You cant go wrong with a Buzzard or an Illusion, I would know I have one of each :D As for a Buzzard look around for a used one, this can drop the price quite a bit if you dont mind buying used. Illusions can be tricky to find, especially one with a stockclass feed. To my knowledge the stock frames are the only ones that will work on an Illusion. If you have any questions about either feel free to ask.

[CKY_Alliance]

Dye(or wgp ) does make a single swing trigger..i saw one on a pump autococker jus the other day...or a pump of some type..wasnt a buzzard though.

[senghing27]

Dye swing triggers are made for both as a buzzard frame, and an Autococker frame. Personally, the dye swings on a buzzard is tacky.
I have a pre-dye and it has the 1.5 hinge and it feels so nice. But compared to my phantom, it's eh....
If i were you, head over to the Phog, and ask Brad to make you a Phuzzard. Smoothness of a buzzard, with the weight and aspects of a phantom.

[etjoyride]

The buzzards with slide frames are the best, a friend of mine just got one and it is god-like....

[thefool]

they did... look at the bottem of the page.


http://people.vanderbilt.edu/~jason.blatt/Merlin.html

[Zygote]

I have a buzzard with the newer style 1.5 finger trigger and while it has a very light smooth pull (it almost feels like a magnetic return) the trigger feels a little too long for a pump. I would prefer a single finger trigger and have more room to actually hold the grip.

[Lohman446]

Those who have them, know more about them. Is the $600 number realistically what I should expect to pay for one with the newer style trigger frame buying used? I intend to have it annoed to my tastes eventually and am just not happy with the concept of that amount of money into a pump.

[PumpPlayer]

Sure, I'll reply. Why not?


I own a new Buzzard and I have quite a bit of play time with various Illusions.
Night and day, my friend.

They're both great markers, don't get me wrong, but it's a different style of play.
For pure stock class, the Buzzard works very well. If you want C/A and/or a hopper, go with the Illusion. Sure you can get a direct-feed Buzzard body (or get a Comp) but they feel awkward to me, almost like you're trying to make the gun do something it was never intended to.

You won't be disappointed in the stock trigger for the Illusion, although they may be sprung a little heavy for some people. I personally like a little weight behind my triggers. The new Buzzard trigger is very light and very smooth. IMO, it's too light for a pump. The feed tubes are well designed and with a little practice, you can put out quite a ROF given that it's a stock class gun. Somewhere between 3 and 4 BPS I'd bet. Of course, this type of shooting leads to a lot of reloading.


Personally, I prefer to use my SC Phantoms above everythig else in my 'arsenal'. There's just something about them that works for me. I don't even have to think and paint seems to just land right on target. However, I will say that both the Illusion and new Buzzard are good choices, it just depends upon what you're trying to do with it. I would say that the Buzzard is overpriced for the performance you get (IMO, you're mostly paying for looks).


New Buzzard:
Pro: Smooth pump stroke - Fastest ROF of any stocker I've used - Smooth, comfortable trigger and grip frame - Anodizing is very thick and durable and looks great - Very good efficiency (they come tuned from Carter for at least 50 shots per 12ie on a warm day)

Con: Very tolerance-sensitive. Putting it together with unequal tension in the body screws will mess it up. - The Carter stocks aren't that great, I like the CCI t-stocks better. That's just preference, though. - Very poor performance on compressed air - Very expensive - Lots of milling looks cool but is a pain to clean. Also, the paint in your feed tube will get soaked and swell if you play in the rain because of all the windows (solution is to tape them up). - Comes stock with macroline (get a CCI hardline kit) - Aluminum barrel makes for very light weight compared with older Buzzards. Some folk don't like lightweight guns. Also, the bore on the barrel is a little large and it's prone to rollouts. There's no way to fix this other than to shim the bore somehow with tape, nail polish, etc. or else send it off to Palmer's to get wedgits installed ($15 plus shipping). - It's Autococker-thread, but most 'cocker barrels require modification to work on the Buzzard (cut a bevel into the breech end so the bolt can seal properly).


Illusion:
Pro: Super smooth pump stroke - Fastest ROF of any non-pneumatic assist pump I've ever seen (If you know how to time your trigger pulls, it'll make CCM autotriggers cry with jealousy) - Very consistant when adjusted properly - Works well with CO2, though I would recommend compressed air with an in-line reg - Ability to use any 'cocker threaded barrel with no modification or functional issues

Con: Stock feed, while nice, can jam somewhat easily. The vert. feed is better. - No fancy colors (some people care) - Not very kind to 12-grams - Stock barrel isn't so hot and it's very large-bore (get yourself a nice barrel) - Velocity is tricky to adjust properly until you get the hang of it. It's easy to run into velocity-related problems if you don't know how to 'time' it. The valve arrangement is different than on a sniper (I don't care what K2 says) and some folk have some issues making the transition. Make sure to read the manual! - Company is no longer producing parts so maintenance may becomee an issue in the future. Fortunately, they're very durable to begin with.



EDIT: Lohman, $600 plus shipping is reasonable. If you want a stock or other extras, keep in mind that it will inflate the price some. The colors are all very nice and the ano job on them is superior to any other marker I've ever seen, hands down. It's think, durable, very hard and vibrant. I don't know where Earon sends them, but it's a beautiful job. Better than even the old Buzzards, easily. Because of the quality of the ano job, I'd be hesitant about re-anodizing it. It'd be better to simply sell the used Buzzard and put the money you'd spend on ano into the cost of a new one in the colors you want. You'd probably even save money this way.

Know that you're not getting $600 worth of performance. You're getting a Carter, of which much of the 'value' is subjective and aesthetic. If you want pure performance and don't want to pay for looks, go with the Illusion (or Phantom if you want a Nelson-based marker - neither of which look 'bad').

[SCpoloRicker]

Have you thought about Sterlings? I'm also a fan of CCM Snipers. :)

[Lohman446]

I want it to be stock class(able) - I could make a CCM work. I'm also a little vain and the pump cannot look like a.... yeh it just can't

[PumpPlayer]

Don't get the CCM (I assume you mean the SS-25) to play stock class. Great pumps, bad stockers.
The stock feeds on the SS-25 just aren't that great. The CCI-mod ones from Wevo are better but you're still pretty much going to need constant air and a regulator. The SS-25 doesn't do that great on unregged CO2 unless you swap out the valve (not a stock 'cocker valve, it needs to be custom-made).

Since you've got a bottle anyhow, you may as well have the hopper when it comes to the SS-25. The same goes for the Illusion, too, although with a little tweaking and adjustment the Illusion will run well on straight 12-grams. It'll never be as efficient as a Nelson, though.


If you want a pure stock gun, go with the Buzzard, hands-down (unless you like Phantoms, but that's not the question)

[Zygote]

Yeah, $600 is about right. Buzzards are really nice, but they're also very temperamental. The body and barrel are held in place by set screws, which tend to vibrate loose as you play and cause gaps to appear between them, which in turn causes the gun to autotrigger without you actually holding the trigger. They also have no ball detents stock which can lead to frustrating rollouts if you use small paint. I had palmers put wedgits in my barrel for $15 and those do the job nicely but its still additional cost. Despite these problems its a great pump. And they do hold their value well, so if you get one used, you can probably resell it for the same price, or very close to it.

I also have a couple phantoms (that I actually tend to use more often) and judging by your criteria, a vsc might be more what you're looking for. They cost half the price and have almost none of the disadvantages of a buzzard. Its recommended that you don't reano them due to the steel inserts in the body. If you want a non-stock ano, it's probably easier to get it done up front.

You might also want to check out a palmers superstocker. Costs more than a phantom, less than a buzzard. Made of nickel-plated brass so you can't really customize it that much but that doesn't realy matter since they all look beautiful anyway.

[Lohman446]

I was never greatly happy with the pump stroke on my Phantom - and I really have never liked the palmers triggers

That being said I am going to stay away from the buzzards, tempermental equipment and I often have drastic partings of the way, which often damages them.

[Zygote]

Like someone mentioned above, you could have Brad make you a phuzzard.

I have no experience with illusions or sterlings but I hear they're both decent enough guns also.

[Vircolac]

but that is based on what you are saying, Lohmann.

I recently purchased my Buzzard.... I really like it, but like everyone says it can be a very tempermental marker. Buying it just based on the trigger would not be a good idea. Although I think it is smooth and very light, the style really feels like a trigger you'd want for unloading a LOT of paint. It reminds me of my blade trigger on the Intelliframe on my Micromag. In some ways, it just don't feel right on a stock class pump!

I look on my purchase of the Buzzard as a showcase piece, a "vanity" purchase in some respects. But I can do that now at my stage in paintball, and life.

Don't get it just for the trigger!

[Lohman446]

but that is based on what you are saying, Lohmann.

I recently purchased my Buzzard.... I really like it, but like everyone says it can be a very tempermental marker. Buying it just based on the trigger would not be a good idea. Although I think it is smooth and very light, the style really feels like a trigger you'd want for unloading a LOT of paint. It reminds me of my blade trigger on the Intelliframe on my Micromag. In some ways, it just don't feel right on a stock class pump!

I look on my purchase of the Buzzard as a showcase piece, a "vanity" purchase in some respects. But I can do that now at my stage in paintball, and life.

Don't get it just for the trigger!

Most everything I purchase in paintball is a vanity purchase :D . God I love the looks of that trigger. Its just that tempermental equipment and I - well yeh I have broken more than my share of equipment.

I thank you all for the advice, I'm thinking to consider other options for my pump. Maybe its waiting for the Grey Ghosts to come into production

[Vircolac]

there is no safety device of any type on that frame. I think that is a major oversight.

[paintman1234]

yeah rob is getting intrested in pump!!

we should talk randy into letting us do a all pump team and play in d4 hehehe

btw: I would go with a buzzard so I can try it out ;) or a sniper becasue I love mine, Isnt there a sniper with a ripper body on it around on the b/s/t forums?

[Lohman446]

Ok, thank you all for the help so far, and now the title is wrong.

The Buzzard option is out. You have all told me of its shortcomings and they are serious enough to concern me. A tempermental piece of equipment in my hands is going to get broken.

So now Im down to an Illussion or Phantom. Im likely going to go stock class though I may end up using CA as well. I had a phantom, nothing special, and did not really fall in love with it. That being said I could try again.

Illusion: I like the look of the Illussion pump better, it doesn't looke like anything any of my girlfriends have owned. Yeh, I'm vain. I am told it may be a far smoother pump stroke, which was one of my main complaints of the phantom. I assume getting it annoed would be doable.

Phantom: I like the overall look of the phantom. I guess I could get a dual pump rod conversion made for it for a smoother pump? WWA could make me exactly what I wanted for the $500 range (guessing from his sight)

Opinions would be nice

[senghing27]

Best of both worlds.... A Phuzzard...
Smoothness of a buzzard, yet weight and ease of a phantom.
$365 for a Base model from Brad Nestle... I can help you more on this when i get home from work...:P

[Zygote]

Coming at this from never having shot an illusion, or even seen one in person...

When I first got my new phantom the pump stroke was a bit rough. Over time it does break in and smooths out a lot and after using it a while you don't even notice. It may cost you a fraction of a bps while autotriggering, but if you're going with a stockfeed, the only time you're likely to be autotriggering is if you're bunkering someone (with your gun pointed slightly down so the balls actually load). I've heard an undercocking kit (Punisher makes them, as well as Brad Nestle) will smooth out your stroke but I can't really verify that. The phuzzard conversion should do that as well (Brad does that too). Some people think phantoms are too light and are hard to aim with because of that. I think they're too strong and should stop working out.

Illusions look to me (someone who has never been in the same room with one) like they're based on the sniper, which will already make it smoother than a phantom. On top of that they have an additional pump arm on the other side of the body which will only make it better. I don't think they have a return spring though, so you have to hold the pump forward or you will lose velocity from the bolt moving back when you shoot. You really should do that anyway but a lot of people coming over from semi play are already used to holding onto the inline reg/12 gram changer when they fire. The company that made the illusion is out of business now. I'm not sure what that means for parts availability or tech help but I do know that it is tough to find one of their angel threaded stock feeds. You may get lucky and find one for sale or you could have somone make one (probably Brad again). I would also guess that since its a sniper/sheridan design it would be less efficient on 12 grams, if that's important to you.

I guess you just have to determine what your priorities are
efficiency - phantom
pump stroke - illusion
rareness - illusion
support - phantom, if you call CCI you'll get the owner

[Lohman446]

How praytell would someone get hold of Brad? I might not get that answer until after I get back from Chicago, and I might pick up something there, but I am interested in this Phuzzard concept. What is it? Anyone have pictures or such?

[jsdatjsd]

How praytell would someone get hold of Brad? I might not get that answer until after I get back from Chicago, and I might pick up something there, but I am interested in this Phuzzard concept. What is it? Anyone have pictures or such?


http://www.bunkerboyz.com/phantom.htm

I tried looking for a phuzzard earlier when I saw it mentioned, and all I got was the website above.

[Zygote]

phuzzard: http://www.bunkerboyz.com/phog/showthread.php?t=2702

Brad has a forum at the phog: http://www.bunkerboyz.com/phog/forumdisplay.php?f=13

[senghing27]

Yup Brad does a lot of stuff. I got my pool ball from him...
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e30/senghing/DSC02310.jpg

You could always make a stockclassed sniper...
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e30/senghing/DSC02411.jpg

Whatever it would be, just make it worth it. :clap:

[phizz]

what about stock class mags since this is automags.org? Just a thought

[Lohman446]

what about stock class mags since this is automags.org? Just a thought


I once built a stock class mag - actually Tuna built it for me. ULE body to use Cocker threads. It was nice but the mag and CO2 never went well together.

[vonort]

One thing to consider is the SC feeds for the Illusions are hard to come by now a days. Since AM is no longer making them. The one thing I didn't like about my Illusion when using it non SC was being Center Feed. Of course at the time I was not as adapted to CF guns as I am now. Other than that I had no complaints about the Illusion. Very nice guns. I also like Phantoms. Always have.