Atwill may have been right.

[p8ntball72]

Lionel Atwill, author of "The Official Survival Game Manual" states in chapter 9...

"the Gun
Game rules spell out permitted gun modifications {see chapter 10}. The NSG inc. is not being pedantic in so doing, nor is it trying to stifle the inventive mind. Its concern is for player safety and equality.

Without strict rules, someone surely would add to the simple Nel-Spot a custom-machined 12 inch barrel extension, a $200 telescopic sight and a rifle stock. Then he would attach an over sized CO2 cartridge charging 5,000 pounds to the square inch. The upshot would be a gun capable of repainting rainbows-the Game would go by the boards. Besides, someone might get hurt. So we have Rules. They limit gun modifications so no one will be Injured... or spend more than $2 tinkering with the gun."

This is how the first players "envisioned" the Game.

So has it gone by the boards and lost it's essence?

http://images.google.com/url?q=http://www.vm68.com/me/gun_pics/official_survival_game_manual.jpg

[Cow hunter]

no, it has evolved, as the technology evolved, so did the saftey equipment, note the shop glasses in that picture, that is no longer accpetable. also they OBVIOUSLY didnt know the "all barrels are the same" thing, or know that a scope doesnt help, OR that its not about PSI in the tank. look at any other sport, it evolved in a similiar manner, it may look to have lost the essence of it but it has actually evovlved to moder standards

[p8ntball72]

my interpretation of the above is that by modifying a gun you would have an unfair advantage.

In the beginning there was only one... the Nel-Spot.

For a budding industry this is a bad thing as there is no industry monies to be made if you do not allow.
A= different guns
B= modifications to the allowed gun.

When did the game evolve from "survival while capturing the flag" to modifying your gun and obtaining an advantage to capturing the flag?

This book is an interesting read and I'm glad i still have it after all these years,
But WOW. after reading through it again, I cant believe how far we have come. :cheers:

[Cow hunter]

it is remarkable how fast the sport has changed, and its fun to look back sometimes, as i type this im waiting for some of these (http://webdog.specialopspaintball.com/video/oldschool/) videos to load and i like to look back.


in addition, no matter how upgraded your marker is, we must keep in mind that the marker does not make the player. it really doesnt matter all THAT much. i cant remember who said it, but put two players of completly eqaul skill on a field, give one a new fancy high end electro, the other a generic wal-mart brand marker, assuming both have COMPLETLY equal skill the high end marker will probably just tip the line and out of 100 games would probably win 55

[p8ntball72]

With the IAO going retro,

I'd love to see the modern speedballer play a truly "OLD School" game with old school rules and old school guns.
An exhibition game, where you didn't win by eliminations but how many flags you came in with.
It would be true skill.

[Lohman446]

Recall how far different the original game was though involving multiple flag stations and a multiple opponents

[peewee]

we have a local event called Border wars that is old school format. Comes up on July 15th I think.

[paintman1234]

Its a new game, If someone where to write a book on it now it would not be called, "the survival game" it would be called speedball

[hitech]

...This is how the first players "envisioned" the Game.

So has it gone by the boards and lost it's essence?


Of course it has. How anyone with even minimal intelligence can argue anything different is beyond me. The game no longer resembles anything the "inventors" wanted it to be. This is indisputable fact.

Now, whether the current game is better or worse, whether the "inventors" vision of what the game should be is the best type of game, those things are all debatable. Just because they came up with the original game and wrote well doesn't mean they are always right. The game today is exactly what they were trying to avoid. They had the foresight to realize what it would "evolve" into if left unchecked. And we can all see that they were correct in that foresight. However, that doesn't mean that what they were trying to avoid is any better or worse than what they were trying to promote. Just their opinions. Wanting to avoid injuries excepted, of course.

_____________________________________________
<img src="http://www.synreal.net/sig/hitech.gif">

Hey Hitech your starting to sound like me! - AGD
Hitech is the man.... :eek: - Blennidae
The only Hitech Lubricant (http://www.kercon.com)

[SlartyBartFast]

look at any other sport, it evolved in a similiar manner

WRONG!

While the safety equipment in many (but not all) sports has involved, many, if not most, sports stay pretty close to their roots when it comes to basic playing equipment. Many, if not most, sports have very strict and specific rules forbidding evolution or change to the basic equipment.
Hockey sticks can’t be curved, baseball bats can’t be weighted, hollowed out, or be made of alumiun. Rugby players can’t wear more than specifically allowed protection.
Footballs, rugby balls, soccer balls, golf balls, etc. are all highly regulated and controlled for official play.
Most racing series limit technology, not encourage it.
Yes, all these sports have evolved. They don’t play soccer with a severed head for example, and fewer people die racing every year.
But true sports are about LIMITING the differences between players and teams to create a contest of skill, strength, and bravery that pits the teams against each other. Not necessarily the equipment. Yes, in some sports technology and equipment do tip the scales (why I included racing), but it also a never ending debate as to what to allow, what to disallow, and what equalizing measures to impose.


Now, whether the current game is better or worse, whether the "inventors" vision of what the game should be is the best type of game, those things are all debatable.

Couldn't agree more. The only idiots who really are wrong are those that try and argue which style of paintball is right or wrong. Just like morons who argue which type of racing is "real" racing.

[slade]

Without strict rules, someone surely would add to the simple Nel-Spot a custom-machined 12 inch barrel extension, a $200 telescopic sight and a rifle stock. Then he would attach an over sized CO2 cartridge charging 5,000 pounds to the square inch.
wait, so... a $200 site would actually help accuracy? :rolleyes:


The NSG inc. is not being pedantic in so doing, nor is it trying to stifle the inventive mind. Its concern is for player safety and equality.


Besides, someone might get hurt. So we have Rules. They limit gun modifications so no one will be Injured... or spend more than $2 tinkering with the gun."
so... hes saying they arent stifling the inventive mind by not allowing anything more than $2 in tinkering, modification or upgrades? :rolleyes:

as for the other issues, paintball is safe as it is now. injuries rarely happen. equality? there might be an argument there for walkon play, but refs usually try to set it up so advanced players play separate from beginners, and tournament play is equal enough.

he may have been able to support his views at the time, but applied retroactively, they look fairly idiotic.

[dahoeb]

well, i didn't even read this entire thread. my post probably doesn't even have that much relevance to the topic at hand, but i'm just gonna put my experience out there, so here it goes....

i had a lot more fun in the mid-late 90's than i have in the past 4 years playing paintball. what can i say, i enjoy coming off the field with 5 welts after getting elimated 5 times, instead of 15 or 20 welts for the same thing. i'm a sissy. :rolleyes: i also just downright had more fun in games where everyone just had mechs, shooting 8-9bps. for me that was the pinnacle. there was more emphasis on strategy and movement. now its just like shooting till the other player leaves his pinky out and you just happen to get it on your 3rd hopper. there is A LOT more cheating today than there was in the 90's. you can say its just in proportion with the population growth of the sport, but i don't care about the excuses as to why there is, cause it doesn't make a difference, its still there and makes the game significantly less fun.
unfortunately, the whole comeraderie(sp?) that brought me into the sport doesn't feel like it exists half as strong as it used to, everyones out trying to be the next ollie lang or something.
now i pretty much only play either scenarios or private groups.
sorry again if this really doesn't have much to do with the thread in general but it was just sorta boiling up inside of me and i felt like getting it out.

*note: this post expresses my views and opinions only, people play for different reasons and prefer different things. there, now i'm politcally correct :spit_take

oh and SlartyBartFast, your post was great, i agree with it 100%

[p8ntball72]

I also had more fun in the 90's with the game in general.

Now the only fun I have playing, is when my team plays against each other.
Sure we attend Scenarios , big games and have fun... but the MOST fun is had when we split up and shoot each other.
over the years I've had the advantage that several of my friends still play and we still enjoy playing together.
if it wern't for the group, I'd have quit long ago.

[dave p]

For a budding industry this is a bad thing as there is no industry monies to be made if you do not allow.
A= different guns
B= modifications to the allowed gun.

:

i do understand the spirit of your post, and that statement is true. although some of us could care less if paintball ever became an industry . part of the discontent (and im seeing more and more) stems from the problems associated with paintball being an 'industry'.

not to say it wasnt fun to see the look on a buddies face when you showed him your new bolt, barrel, Nitrogen system etc. and he realized you had a (mostly percieved) advantage (until he could get his order in to c.o. paintball or i&i, then he would show you!). but now its kind of out of hand. and the attitudes are just over the top.(but thats more a lack of parenting/upbringing than an industry problem)

[slade]

the attitudes are just over the top.(but thats more a lack of parenting/upbringing than an industry problem)
im more sick of seeing talk about attitudes that rarely exist than i am of attitudes.

[p8ntball72]

on attitudes.

In my experience Las Vegas rec ball has to be the worst place. it was like daycare.
S.C. Village advanced walk on has the worst "playing on".
Tucson has to many turny wannabes mixed in with rec players
Phoenix rec allows ramping with beginner walk ons
the Local place where im at now makes rules up as they go and I would rather drive 250 miles then to support them.


There was a time when the paint was "California magnum", the guns were "bushmasters", and the players had "skill". In those days equipment defiantly gave you an advantage.
maybe we sucked, but when the first guy hit my field with a SMG 60, when everyone else had pumps... he had an advantage.

I dont necessarily think I'd like the paintball of Atwill's day, But defiantly had more fun in the game of the early 90's.

[mag_lover05]

where is the rule forbidding AGG-ness?!? man-o-man, there shoulda been a rule about 10 year old kids who think they're AGG

[dahoeb]

im more sick of seeing talk about attitudes that rarely exist than i am of attitudes.

pssshhh i wish i played where at your field! i doubt people are going around complaining about the bad attitudes in paintball for no reason....

[dave p]

im more sick of seeing talk about attitudes that rarely exist than i am of attitudes.
and im sick of people who think its okay to release their ill mannered spawn into the general population.

[Cow hunter]

WRONG!

While the safety equipment in many (but not all) sports has involved, many, if not most, sports stay pretty close to their roots when it comes to basic playing equipment. Many, if not most, sports have very strict and specific rules forbidding evolution or change to the basic equipment.
Hockey sticks can’t be curved, baseball bats can’t be weighted, hollowed out, or be made of alumiun. Rugby players can’t wear more than specifically allowed protection.
Footballs, rugby balls, soccer balls, golf balls, etc. are all highly regulated and controlled for official play.
Most racing series limit technology, not encourage it.
Yes, all these sports have evolved. They don’t play soccer with a severed head for example, and fewer people die racing every year.
But true sports are about LIMITING the differences between players and teams to create a contest of skill, strength, and bravery that pits the teams against each other. Not necessarily the equipment. Yes, in some sports technology and equipment do tip the scales (why I included racing), but it also a never ending debate as to what to allow, what to disallow, and what equalizing measures to impose.

am i really wrong?we do limit, not as much as others like you mentioned, but there are limitations that have adapted to meet modern standards such as; the 15bps cap, the ban on cheater modes, not allowing multiple layers(maybe?) they are not unlike other limitations like hockey sticks and baseball bats, because the whole idea is different, this is a NEW sport, others have been around for at least 100 years, paintball has been around for about what? 25? we have kept the basic concept; shooting other people to mark them, yes there were the CTF formats, but how might it have originated? 2 bored people shooting at each other for fun. make what you will of this, but i'm not really sure how i can better convey my point here....

[dahoeb]

am i really wrong?we do limit, not as much as others like you mentioned, but there are limitations that have adapted to meet modern standards such as; the 15bps cap, the ban on cheater modes, not allowing multiple layers(maybe?) they are not unlike other limitations like hockey sticks and baseball bats, because the whole idea is different, this is a NEW sport, others have been around for at least 100 years, paintball has been around for about what? 25? we have kept the basic concept; shooting other people to mark them, yes there were the CTF formats, but how might it have originated? 2 bored people shooting at each other for fun. make what you will of this, but i'm not really sure how i can better convey my point here....

cow hunter,
i see your point completely, and i don't necessarily disagree with you. but you have to admit, shooting 15+bps with ramping n stuff isn't quite the same as better pads in football. besides, not all tourneys have 15bps or ramping rules.

if they put a robotic arm on a quarterback that allowed him to throw 100yards with high speed and precision, then it'd be a little more comparable.


and im sick of people who think its okay to release their ill mannered spawn into the general population.
qft