ULE trigger help needed

[Aslan]

I bought a ULE trigger pull kit (ULT) recently as well as a Retro Valve. I had the Retro valve milled by Brad Nestle and sent back to me.

I got so excited that I immediately aired it up and it went crazy and leaked! :eek: I immediately realized that I still had the stock On/Off in the milled hole so that was probably the problem.

I disassembled and removed the on/off aseemble. It was difficult to get out...very tight. I then dropped in the ULT. Now the person I bought the ULT from said that it was already set up and tuned, I just needed to drop it in. It was also very tight to get in. I had to push on it pretty hard to get it all the way in there.

I again got excited and aired up the gun. No leak. :clap: Unfortunately though, I pulled the trigger and nothing happened. No leak out the back, no leak out the front...no firing, no nothing. :confused: :( :( The trigger pull was very stifff...I could pull it all the way back, but nothing would happen.

Other information...it's a Retro Valve, milled by Brad, Level 10 installed with it looks like the shortest spring. I bought the valve off AO recently...I test fired it before sending it to Brad and it fired flawlessly, no leaks.

I hope someone can help me...I'm really disappointed because this is going to be my new "primary marker"...a Minimag that I essentially built from scratch. The bolt and ULT were the final parts I needed and I spent more on the Retro Valve (even not counting the milling) than I've ever spent on a single paintball item. :wow:

[the mag guy]

ok well i might have misinterpreted what you said but let me make sure I got it down.
1. you have a valve drilled for ult
2. the lvl 10 was tuned for that valve
3. you bought the ult from a different person and brad had nothing to do with the tuning of the ult.

If all that is correct then I offer this:

not al valves are exactly the same, hence the reason for tuning. It the ULT was tuned for a different gun and it doesnt work in yours then thats not too much to worry about. The ULT does fir in kinda tight, but I did not have to force mine in.

Try this:
Drop a shim out of your ult and try to fire again. dont really worry about leaks at this point, just try to get it to fire. Keeping removing shims one at a time from the Ult till you get a response from the trigger. I had your same problem and it was the fact that I had too many shims.


If you lvl X is not tuned for your valve, you're going to have to retune that as well. the threads on how to do it on here are amazing and are very easy to follow.

do a bit of reading and try out the shim removal on the ULT and let us know.

hope it works for ya.

[Dayspring]

Actually, it's probably b/c the pin "length" is too long.

A normal on/off pin that is too long will just have the gun not fire. (Because the full travel of the head doesn't clear the oring.) Try adding shims until it leaks, and then back it out one. $10 says it works at that point.

[the mag guy]

Actually, it's probably b/c the pin "length" is too long.

A normal on/off pin that is too long will just have the gun not fire. (Because the full travel of the head doesn't clear the oring.) Try adding shims until it leaks, and then back it out one. $10 says it works at that point.


not knockin ya at all dude, but if his ULT is "tuned" already that brings up two issues to me:
1. Its a ULT pin for a ULT on/off. this is where i could be wrong though. Since its in a valve that it was not intended to be in,but it was already drilled out for a ULT, yes, you might have to adjust the pin length, but I would talk to Electrician or other person thats posted threads on on/off pins.

2. since the ULT is "tuned", it should already have shims in it. I've had my ULT shooting (with leaks) with only one shim in it all the way up to so many shims the valve wouldnt go into the body so i had to take some out (yes I bought another lvl X shim kit).

To the best of my knowledge the addition of shims keeps you from having to modify the pin by shaving it. I believe shimming and shaving will have the same effect except that if you shave to much you can't make it longer again.

[Aslan]

The level 10 is tuned for the valve and the valve with Level 10 worked fine before I sent the valve out for milling.

Now I' a bit unclear whether I should try adding shims or taking them away... There are two shims on the ULT On/Off presently. The person that sold it to pmd this to me:

How many shims do you have in there? Sometimes my ULT will do that if I don't have enough shims in because the on/off pin is "Too long." Putting shims in makes the on/off pin "shorter."

So, the summary of what has been said by this guy and dayspring is that it's probably that the pin is too long and I need more shims. It appears that Mag Guy thinks I need less.

I'll try to add a shim tonight and see what happens...I just wanted to post that there are two shims in the ULT presently in case that has any bearing on your recommendations.

Thanks.

[the mag guy]

I wasnt actually saying take some out or add some, I was leaning toward taking them away solely b/c you had not previously mentioned how many were in it. If there is only two definatley add more. i was trying to encourage user trial and error. i probably misunderstood what you were trying to say. sorry for that. My x-valve fired with two, but then again its not a drilled one. what i was trying to say is if you have too many the trigger wont respond either...well mine didnt. I've read on here that putting too many puts it in auto, but I didnt run across that problem. i wish i would have b/c I'd like to see it.

goodluck and I hope it all works out for you

[back2integrity]

(The ULT came from me) Just like mentioned above, every gun is different, and even though I had it tuned on one of my x-valves, doesn't mean it will be set up right for a different valve. I would recommend adding shims still, since a ULT I am currently using in one of my guns doesn't work until I get 5 shims in there; any less than 5 and I get the same problem you are having. But you'll really just have to mess around with it until it works well in your specific valve.

As far as the ULT being hard to put into the valve, it sounds like it isn't a problem with the ULT since you also had a very hard time getting the stock on/off out because it was very tight. Sounds like your on/off hole is just a tad smaller for some reason. If the o-rings were not lubed well though, that could also contribute to the problem. I oiled it all up for you before I sent it, but the outside o-rings may have become dry by rubbing up against the bag during shipping.

[Arstron]

I just want to point out the obvious becuse a lot of times its the simple things that you over look. Have you tried turning up the velocity? Things happen sometimes, and the velocity might of gotten adjusted by brad (ya never know). Just a thought.

[Aslan]

Thanks guys, I'll add a shim tonight. If that doesn't work, I'll add another. If that doesn't work, I'll have to try to use some of my spare Level 10 shims because I only have two spare ULT shims. I'll work on it tonight and let everyone know how it goes. I'll make sure I iol the heck out of the ULT before trying to put it back in...I thought I did, but maybe not enough.

I'm actually pretty confident, based on what I've read, that I can get it working. I'm more concerned about the autococker I had Brad work on at the same time I sent in the Retro valve...I tested that last night as well and it didn't work worth a darn...it was shooting like 79fps! :mad: I had hoped to try both of these guns at the Monster Game in 9-10 days so it looks like I'm going to be going to option B or C. :cuss:

[Aslan]

I just want to point out the obvious becuse a lot of times its the simple things that you over look. Have you tried turning up the velocity? Things happen sometimes, and the velocity might of gotten adjusted by brad (ya never know). Just a thought.

I didn't try that...I guess I figured since it fired with the Retro/Level 10 pre-milling that the non-firing would be due to the milling/ULT addition...I could try that before adding the shims...I'm just nervous about using too much air...my tank is at just above 1000psi and my other one is empty...if it runs out, I'll probably wait until after the Monster Game (when I can fill both tanks up before leaving) before working on the problem...unless I can find a scuba store or something near me that I can go to for a fill.

[the mag guy]

if you get lower than 100 psi its not even orth trying to tune until you get more air. I know it is possible, but just for pressures sake. when I was tuning mine more lastnight it started messing up bad and I got really frustrated, until i saw i was runnin outta air.

[Aslan]

if you get lower than 100 psi its not even orth trying to tune until you get more air. I know it is possible, but just for pressures sake. when I was tuning mine more lastnight it started messing up bad and I got really frustrated, until i saw i was runnin outta air.

If it falls below 850psi I won't bother. My classic valve didn't like less than 850 or less so I imagine neither will the Retro valve.

[Beemer]

Actually, it's probably b/c the pin "length" is too long.

Try adding shims until it leaks, and then back it out one. $10 says it works at that point.

Now why would I want to listen to an old AGD tech rep. like you. :eek: I got another 10 says youre right. :cheers:

[Aslan]

Well, it appears I counted incorrectly. The ULT on/off had 4 shims on it. I tired your suggestion and added two more, still nothing. Is there a "shim limit"? I have some Level 10 shims I could try and add.

Aw man...I'm really in a pickle now aren't I? I had the Retro Valve drilled, so AGD isn't going to touch it...and I can't just put the old on/off back in it because it's drilled.... :(

And on a separate note...my cocker is blowing off 3-way hoses...which I don't have spares of...so now I gotta order some of those.

Both the guns I was hoping to try out this weekend and one (the cocker) can't shoot more than 8 shots without blowing it's hoses off and the other (minimag) won't even fire. NUTZ!!

[the mag guy]

the cocker prob seems rather easy and can be one of two things:
1. imput pressure is too high. try adjusting your lpr and yes the stock wgps are adjustable, just not as easy as turning a regular job.

2. the hose is old and worn out. there are two simole foxes for this. One is get those hat things that clamp down on the hose . Two is get new hose.




The mag prob I wont try to touch b/c i have no experience w/ drilled valves and it bugs me when people post on subject they dont know about. I will offer that I am now using 4 lvl 10 shims in my ULT and no ult shims. this is equivelant to 8 ult shims! this is in a stock x-valve though.

[Aslan]

:(

:confused:

Brad Nestle tells me that 5 shims is the maximum you can use with a ULT... :(

What should I do? Will AGD touch it once the valve is milled? Would somebody like Tunaman or the MagSmith be an option? I hate to buy another ULT...I'd rather pay the same amount to get this one to work than pay for another ULT, then have that one possibly not work.

All I can think of is to get the pin shaved...but how would I do that? With a dremmel? I'd probably end up flinging the thing off into nowhere and cutting my fingernail off... :argh:

As for the cocker, I've go t new hose on the way, I'll see how that goes, if it slips off...then I'll get the hats. I'm hoping I can just adjust the IVG once I can get the hoses to stay on for more than 6 seconds.

[Arstron]

when I had my dragun mag frame on a classsic rail, I ran 7 shims in my ult. classic rails need more shims then a rt rail though. I can't help but wonder if the pin is bent. you might try removing the ult and see how freely the pin will move in and out. also the stock on/off should still work if you have a parts kit. just find the white oring that fits snugly inside the on/off hole and fits around the oring at the en of the on/off pin. place the bigger one in the hole and then slide in the stock on/off and it should work. don't forget the oil though.

[Aslan]

when I had my dragun mag frame on a classsic rail, I ran 7 shims in my ult. classic rails need more shims then a rt rail though. I can't help but wonder if the pin is bent. you might try removing the ult and see how freely the pin will move in and out. also the stock on/off should still work if you have a parts kit. just find the white oring that fits snugly inside the on/off hole and fits around the oring at the en of the on/off pin. place the bigger one in the hole and then slide in the stock on/off and it should work. don't forget the oil though.

So what you're saying is, with a classic rail I could need to use more than 6?

The pin does not move smoothly. Not as smooth as the stock one. It doesn't get stuck or anything...just doesn't move smoothly.

As a last resort, I guess I could try to put the o-ring in there...I'd really like to get it to work with the ULT though... :(

I'll try to add a Level 10 shim...that will bring the total to 8 since the level 10 shim is twice as large. Do you really think it could take more than 8? If that doesn't work, I'll take the pin out and see if it's bent.

[Arstron]

More then 8, I dought it, it sounds like there is a problem somewhere else to be honest with you. I would try the stock on/off in it and see if it shoots then. If it doesnt shoot then, then you know somthing is wrong some where else.

[back2integrity]

Well, I used that ULT in one of my guns with no problems, so I doubt it is the ULT. But if the stock on/off works and you think it is the ULT giving you fits (and not your valve), I can send you a different one. But it does sound like, if it isn't the valve, maybe the pin got bent a little while you were changing out shims or trying to shove it in your drilled RT valve. Let me know what you think and I can have another one sent out Monday if needed.

[Aslan]

Okay, I tried to add a Level 10 shim and the On/Off wouldn't fit far enough into the valve to allow the valve to fit in the Minimag body.

I thought I should post a pic of what I'm looking at:
http://www.jayloo.com/files/pics/37000/two_On_Offs_rs.JPG (http://www.jayloo.com/photo_gallery/show_pic/37926.html)

What I noticed was that the pin was in opposite in one on/of versus the other. I'm sure this is normal...but I just noticed it.

Needless to say, taking out a shim and adding the Level 10 shim (essentially 7 shims) didn't work.

Here are some more pics:
http://www.jayloo.com/files/pics/37000/Milled_Retro_Valve_rs.JPG (http://www.jayloo.com/photo_gallery/show_pic/37927.html)

http://www.jayloo.com/files/pics/37000/Back_of_Minimag_rs.JPG (http://www.jayloo.com/photo_gallery/show_pic/37928.html)

I took all but 4 shims out, I figure at this point it can't be a shim issue. I tried to turn the velocity all the way up, as far as it would go...nothing happened...no difference. :confused:

[Aslan]

I took a look at the pin, to see if it was bent...

http://www.jayloo.com/files/pics/37000/bent_pin_rs.JPG (http://www.jayloo.com/photo_gallery/show_pic/37930.html)

It doesn't appear to be. I wanted to take it all the way out but couldn't figure out how. Push from the bottom? Push from the top? I didn't want to make the wrong choice then actually bend the heck out of it trying.

[Aslan]

After reading Arston and B2I's posts, the first question that needs to be solved is does the valve work.

I know it did before the milling with the stock on/off. I didn't chrono it, but I know it fired flawlessly and no leaks...not even a faint one (like my 68 Classic).

I tried to add the o-ring and use the stock on/off in the milled valve, but I couldn't figure out which o-ring you meant. There's the extra one from the ULT or an o-ring the same size as the stock bottom o-ring (I didn't have an extra, but I did have a Classic Valve on/off o-ring...see the picture below:
http://www.jayloo.com/files/pics/37000/Which_Bottom_ORing_rs.JPG (http://www.jayloo.com/photo_gallery/show_pic/37929.html)

From the picture you can't tell that the o-ring on the left (ULT) is smaller than the two on the right. The bottom one on the right is the spare Classic on/off o-ring.

I tried both ways, but both times the on/off would not go far enough in. :(

Back to square one it appears...hopefully the photos at least show you what I'm looking at.

[Beemer]

O-ring 22 should fit snug into number 23. Do you have 23? Or is it in the valve?
22 can also be a quad o-ring.

http://students.its.txstate.edu/~kp1143/X-Valve_Exploded.bmp

Thanks to Nate from here. http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=194223&highlight=exploded+view

[Beemer]

I took a look at the pin, to see if it was bent...

http://www.jayloo.com/files/pics/37000/bent_pin_rs.JPG (http://www.jayloo.com/photo_gallery/show_pic/37930.html)

It doesn't appear to be. I wanted to take it all the way out but couldn't figure out how. Push from the bottom? Push from the top? I didn't want to make the wrong choice then actually bend the heck out of it trying.

From this pic just pull the pin out. It should not be stuck. Also it Appears from this pic that the top of that pin is messed up. It should be smooth and flat.

[nathanjones008]

The level 10 is tuned for the valve and the valve with Level 10 worked fine before I sent the valve out for milling.

Now I' a bit unclear whether I should try adding shims or taking them away... There are two shims on the ULT On/Off presently. The person that sold it to pmd this to me:

How many shims do you have in there? Sometimes my ULT will do that if I don't have enough shims in because the on/off pin is "Too long." Putting shims in makes the on/off pin "shorter."

So, the summary of what has been said by this guy and dayspring is that it's probably that the pin is too long and I need more shims. It appears that Mag Guy thinks I need less.

I'll try to add a shim tonight and see what happens...I just wanted to post that there are two shims in the ULT presently in case that has any bearing on your recommendations.

Thanks.
i know this is off the subject a little but does a trigger pull adapt well with a xvlave and will it make that much of a difference in my gun to pay 47.00? thank you. ;)