My new Kimber - first impressions

[Lohman446]

There is a pair of long stories involved that ended up with me walking into a situation feeling totally underarmed. Basically I was forced to carry a pistol I do not like that I have almost shot myself with to overcome the feeling of being underarmed for a certain situation. Thankfully the situation never escalated and what I was carrying did not matter.

But it left me with a bad feeling. I have a few handguns, my primary carry gun is a Sig P229 in 357 SIG. Awesome gun, great stopping power, great magazine capacity, unsurpassed accuracy. Its the perfect handgun - assuming you have it with you. The fact of the matter becomes that it is just a touch too big, too wide, to carry in light clothing. In the winter where it is not out of place to wear a secondary shirt, easy to carry in good leather. The point is at the time I felt I wanted it with me it was sitting in my safe at home and my Beretta .32 was in my pocket.

I went to the gun store with the intent to buy a baby Glock. I had even settled in my mind to settle for .40 or 9MM. I don't like Glocks, I don't like any gun without an external safety or hammer you have to cock. I don't like either the 9MM or 40 for proven stopping power but the 9MM rounds have come a long way. Its a personal preference thing but again, the need to compromise had been illustrated to me.

I looked at Glocks, I looked at Springfield XD's, I looked at a couple Brownings. I looked at HKs but they seem to me to only be an inferior version of my Sig with all the same problems as my Sig. Finally I struck on the idea to look at single stack magazine .45s. I looked at quite a few (Para Ordanance, one Wilson Combat that was just too big) and found a Kimber Ultra Carry that I really really liked. A bit pricier than I had in mind but not stupidly so. Now I expected in buying it to give up some accuracy from my Sig, perhaps a noticeable amount. I consoled myself with the theory I was looking at compact carry guns and would be giving up accuracy on any of them compared to a full size Sig of all things. That and I had selected a gun in 45, giving me cheap practice ammo (compared to that of my 357 Sig) and debatably not giving up stopping power. Of course I bought a good holster for it

WOW.. I like this gun. The trigger pull is clean and crisp, the beavertail safety does not bother me when shooting it (my previous concern with 1911 style pistols). I put 50 rounds of Federal Hydrashock through it and am very impressed with the accuracy of the little pistol. Its not as good as my Sig out to 20 yards but it is very very close and I would dare to hint that it may point better - I didn't go beyond 20 yards, I mean thats a long ways for a pistol in a defensive sense. I know my Sigs good out well beyond that but I know this 230 grain .45 bullet is going to drop like a rock. Still, its filling a need, it rides comfortably in a Bianchi holster, and it conceals well.

Do I think the Sig in .357 is a better gun in the end? Yeh, I know it is. But the best gun is worthless if its locked away in your safe when you need it. This gun is more than adequate for any self defense role I will call on it for, and will probably replace my Sig as a primary carry gun, maybe even in the winter. I am very impressed with it. Its shortcomings seem to be far less than what I would have thought when I handed over the cash for it

[Steelrat]

Great purchase, I really like Kimbers. I've been looking at Nighthawks myself. Just remember that using a 1911 as a carry gun requires A LOT more training than a typical gun. First of all, there is the whole matter of carrying it "cocked and locked." If you are not doing that, you might as well not be carrying it, but it requires a good amount of practice to do it safely. A number of holsters have straps just for this form of carry.

Also, the backstrap will require that you have a good grip on the gun to fire it. Your sig would allow you to be sloppy with the grip.

I like the .45 accuracy and stopping power. It is a fun round to shoot, without too much recoil, unlike the horrible 10mm. I think the .45 feels even better than the .40. I've thought about using a 1911 as a carry gun, and I still have mixed feelings. I really feel that the best choice is probably a glock or a kahr, though I don't much care for glocks.

EDIT: I'm also partial to sigs, as I currently own a p228 9mm, p229 .40, and nickel p226 9mm.

[Lohman446]

First of all, there is the whole matter of carrying it "cocked and locked." If you are not doing that, you might as well not be carrying it, but it requires a good amount of practice to do it safely. A number of holsters have straps just for this form of carry..

Expand on this theory for me if you would. There is a manual hammer block safety on the side of the weapon and a firing pin safety on the beavertail safety. I don't see where carrying a .45 cocked and locked is inheretently more dangerous than carrying any loaded gun. I mean, thats my big problem with the Glock (and Kahr) - reasonably short first trigger pulls with no external safety. My Sig of course lacks an external safety, but that first trigger pull is pretty dang long.

Obvioulsy it will take some range time to be a good carry gun for me, but thats the case with any gun.

[MoeMag]

When I got my concealed weapons permit… the instructor was a big fan of Glocks. When asked about the safety… his statement was “the safety is not pulling the trigger.” He said if you are carrying a gun you should be carrying it with the intention that you will use it when the time comes.

I have many rifles and have never felt the need to be armed at all times. But recently working in the paintball store I have been considering it more and more. We get some very questionable characters at times as you may imagine.

Anyway I would like to hear what you all think about my instructor’s statement… and hey maybe some suggestions for my first handgun.

Being a paintball store I want something I can conceal and not scare the newb moms that come in… but at the same time something that can get the job done when I need it.

[Lohman446]

When I got my concealed weapons permit… the instructor was a big fan of Glocks. When asked about the safety… his statement was “the safety is not pulling the trigger.” He said if you are carrying a gun you should be carrying it with the intention that you will use it when the time comes.

I have many rifles and have never felt the need to be armed at all times. But recently working in the paintball store I have been considering it more and more. We get some very questionable characters at times as you may imagine.

Anyway I would like to hear what you all think about my instructor’s statement… and hey maybe some suggestions for my first handgun.

Being a paintball store I want something I can conceal and not scare the newb moms that come in… but at the same time something that can get the job done when I need it.


I don't like the short trigger pull on the Glock without a safety. Does the Glock have a safety? Yeh, several in that trigger pull, in fact I happen to have a Smith and Wesson Sigma with the same safety system.

That being said I think it makes it too easy to accidentally discharge the firearm. I also think that should someone manage to get my gun from me I may have a second or two as they try to figure out what lever makes the gun shoot. This gun is pull the trigger gun goes bang.

It matters what you are comfortable with. Kahr, Glock, and Springfield all make good quality firearms that are readily concealed - I think they all suffer from the lack of an external safety. You may find a revolver gives you adequate stopping power and is readily concealed. I find this not all that true as the cylinder tends to be thicker than any semi-auto. I personally favor Sig Sauers, though as I noted my Kimber is extremely nice. There are a lot of other names in there as well - H&K, Browning, Taurus, Ruger, etc. that make good firearms. Its a good idea to take some time and rent some different firearms to see what you are comfortable with and what suits you.

For a cheap, concealable, value firearm Bersa makes a very nice 380 for the price you will pay. Though a 380 is on the lower end of the realistic stopping power that I would carry and depend on.

[maxama10]

Pictures? :shooting: :D

[BeaverEater]

im a huge fan of kimber but there a little out of my price range with going to college and all. My cousin has a couple and im very impressed with their quality and accuracy. You've gotta post some pics too.

[Steelrat]

Expand on this theory for me if you would. There is a manual hammer block safety on the side of the weapon and a firing pin safety on the beavertail safety. I don't see where carrying a .45 cocked and locked is inheretently more dangerous than carrying any loaded gun. I mean, thats my big problem with the Glock (and Kahr) - reasonably short first trigger pulls with no external safety. My Sig of course lacks an external safety, but that first trigger pull is pretty dang long.

Obvioulsy it will take some range time to be a good carry gun for me, but thats the case with any gun.

I am definately not a fan of carrying a self-defense gun with a safety on. Just one more step you have to go through before engaging a target. A glock can be outfitted with a heavier trigger group that makes an inadvertant discharge much more unlikely. And that beavertail safety is a whole problem in and of itself, like I mentioned before. Properly indexing the weapon when drawing it is not a given in panic situations, and having a safety tied into having a proper grip can lead to some nasty outcomes.

Personally, for a carry weapon, I think a DAO is the best setup. Two of my sigs are set up with DAO for that very reason. Fine motor skills get so screwed up when the adrenaline hits that any sort of short, single action pull is a potential accidental-discharge waiting to happen.

I know it's just my opinion, but I have quite a bit of experience with firearms, and I just can't advocate a 1911 for concealed personal defense.

EDIT: Also, I see a problem with shooting two types of guns. In a self-defense situation, the MOST important thing is muscle memory. When you draw, your body needs to be conditioned to draw one way, aim one way, fire one way. Shooting two dissimilar weapon types makes that difficult. If you stick with the 1911, I'd relegate the sig to occasional plinking, with NO holster use.

[Steelrat]

the instructor was a big fan of Glocks. When asked about the safety… his statement was “the safety is not pulling the trigger.”

God, if I hear one more person regurgitates that line (or something like it) from "Blackhawk Down" I'm going to throw up. Some people pretend that violent situations happen in a vacuum, as if you were on a shooting range plinking at targets. It's hard to be flip about trigger safety when the lead starts flying. Unless you have some awesome muscle memory, it's best to have a heavy trigger in that glock, because your body will be doing things that you don't want, and don't expect.

[Kyle.Kimber]

I don't know what this thread is about, but thanks for remembering me.

[Lohman446]

For those wanting pics

http://www.kimberamerica.com/pistols/ultracarry/ultracarry.php


And the holster http://www.bianchi-intl.com/product/Prod.php?TxtModelID=100 I really like that particular holster and use it for both this and my Sig Sauer. Good retention, good concealment, and molds to the gun.

[Pneumagger]

I've been looking into springfield's 45GAP model, a springfield 1911 A1 .45, or the Kimber Eclipse .45 ($$$).

The Kimber Eclipse is clearly the best, but has the pricetag to prove it. But they're so sweet looking. Kimbers are like art. Kind of like an the xmags of the pistol world. The first time I saw one my face was like :eek: It tould be an honor to be shot at with one of those :rofl:
http://www.kimberamerica.com/pistols/eclipse/

One reason I'm looking into the XD over the Glock in striker pistols is the fact that it has the addition of the grip saftey. Now I know that it's not a true safty in the sense that it needs disengaged, but it's just one extra level I guess. Plus, have you ever shot one? The ergonomics are really nice compared to most oher pistols. Plus, with the .45 GAP, the grip isn't bulky at all and the double stack gives alot more shots.

I guess I'm looking into the regular 1911 A1 for the simple ruggedness and simplicity. Plus, for a 1911 .45 pistol, you can't beat the price. I wish had a bigger capacity though.

[Lohman446]

I picked up an XD yesterday, wasn't happy with the balance or weight (it struck me as heavier than the Kimber though I don't have the numbers). I wasn't happy with the blockiness of the slide for a carry weapon either. Add to it the width of a double stack and it just did not strike me as a better option as a carry pistol. However, understand when I bought it I was looking for the "ideal" carry pistol for me and this gun does not need to serve any other role. So there was no compromise to what it would do better

[thecavemankevin]

I don't know what this thread is about, but thanks for remembering me.


:rofl:

[Pacifist_Farmer]

Hey everyone I realize this has been more of a pros and cons conversation about various pistols, but I'm curious about something.

I grew up around guns, my family has a collection, I own several, even my sister has a few. What kind of professions are the various posters in that require, or necessitate a carried weapon?

I would guess that aside from law enforcement, security, and of course shop owners, i.e MoeMag, there arent really that many oppurtunities for, or reasons to concealed carry.

I understand and agree that anyone who carries a firearm needs to spend enough time with it to develope "muscle memory", but question whether there are that many valid reasons for people to carry anymore.

Please bear in mind that I'm writing this from one of the most gun shy states in the union, in fact I keep all of my guns in another state because of the laws here. I cant think of anyone I know who lives in this state who owns a firearm.

[Lohman446]

I would guess that aside from law enforcement, security, and of course shop owners, i.e MoeMag, there arent really that many oppurtunities for, or reasons to concealed carry..

When I hire someone I take on a moral responsibility for their safety while at work. Now should someone rob the place and want the money, I couldn't care less, it is after all insured. That being said I also routinely transport healthy amounts of cash and carry it as protection - again not for the cash itself.

Add to that a psycho ex and husband who routinely are involved in domestic violence issues with each other and I am not that often unarmed.

Those are the two strong reasons for carrying. I won't go into the litany of other reasons such as a well armed populace being a deterent to crime, or the simple fact that it is my right to do so as these require more theoretical reasoning.

However, as others have stated there is a need to have an ability to use and protect your firearm. I find the NRA classes, well a good start, to be negilgent in gun retention techniques. I also find most pistol instructors to neglect it, as well as proper techniques to create distance.

One more addition - having a concealed carry permit frees me from the required waiting period to buy a firearm. Many people I know who have them have them for that reason alone.

/Of course I live in a reasonably gun friendly state

[Steelrat]

Hey everyone I realize this has been more of a pros and cons conversation about various pistols, but I'm curious about something.

I grew up around guns, my family has a collection, I own several, even my sister has a few. What kind of professions are the various posters in that require, or necessitate a carried weapon?

I would guess that aside from law enforcement, security, and of course shop owners, i.e MoeMag, there arent really that many oppurtunities for, or reasons to concealed carry.

I understand and agree that anyone who carries a firearm needs to spend enough time with it to develope "muscle memory", but question whether there are that many valid reasons for people to carry anymore.

Please bear in mind that I'm writing this from one of the most gun shy states in the union, in fact I keep all of my guns in another state because of the laws here. I cant think of anyone I know who lives in this state who owns a firearm.

I would think that if a poster was in law enforcement, they might not be inclined to mention it on the forum.

There are states that do allow civilian concealed carry. If you are going to carry it, you might as well train to use it the right way. As for valid reasons, I would think that a person's life, and the life of their friends or family, would be reason enough. Sure, the chances of actually having to use it are small, but there is still a chance. God help you if the day comes when you need it, and it's not there.

[Lohman446]

There are a lot of considerations in allowing a well armed populace. In many areas of the state (including where I am) the average police response time, for reasons outside of the officers control, are dismal. This is not a crack on the police. Its a totally understandable situation considering a heavily dispersed population. In a situation outside of one of the cities one should not expect a response time of less than ten minutes (and just Friday I had a reason to call the police, the response time was noticeably longer). This was a situation where I had every reason to beleive my six year old daughter was in danger of immediate and severe physical harm. Armed or unarmed I was pulling my child and her sister out of that situation, I was glad to be armed (even if it was underarmed). Hence the "need" for a new carry gun.

[geekwarrior]

dumb California gun laws :mad:

[SCpoloRicker]

Well, I carry because I work for the CIA. International espionage, and what have you.

/please don't tell anyone

[Lohman446]

EDIT: Also, I see a problem with shooting two types of guns. In a self-defense situation, the MOST important thing is muscle memory. .

I greatly disagree. Its far more important to be as calm as possible, and to have trained enough with whatever weapon that you are familiar with it (granted that falls under muscle memory to a degree) and thinking clearly enough to properly use it. The ability to remain calm enough to think clearly is by far the most important in a bad situation.

[Steelrat]

I greatly disagree. Its far more important to be as calm as possible, and to have trained enough with whatever weapon that you are familiar with it (granted that falls under muscle memory to a degree) and thinking clearly enough to properly use it. The ability to remain calm enough to think clearly is by far the most important in a bad situation.

Wishful thinking. Counting on "nerves of steel" is just going to lead to disaster. Its just human physiology. In almost EVERY case, your motor control will degenrate, you will get tunnel vision, and you will suffer from audible exclusion. I mean, how do you train to be calm in a real engagement? Try running a few stress courses. Those are light years away from the real thing, and yet even there you will see how much stress affects your reactions and perception.

The BEST way to train is to create muscle memory. You want your hand to drop to your holster and draw the weapon automatically, and bring the weapon up in front of you. You also want to be headed towards the closest cover. If you start screwing around with different weapons and holsters, you will screw up your ability to create that muscle memory.

Here is a good anecdote. There was a federal agent who was working on a house one weekend, when an escaped convict suddenly appeared there. The agent recongnized the convict, who was armed, and had already killed a couple of court officers. The agent automatically drew his weapon, pulled the trigger, and the hammer dropped on an empty chamber. The assumption is that the agent didn't have a round in the chamber because he was off duty, and yet all his training at the range involved shooting a weapon that had a round in the chamber. Clear thinking goes right out the window in a situation like that, and all you have is your built-up muscle memory.

But don't take my word for it.

[Lohman446]

I would point out the practice of the Israeli Defense Forces as the counter example. The IDF carries their weapons (we assume only in a non-offensive situation) without a round chambered. They are trained to pull the slide back as they bring the weapon up. The theory is that it allows them a moment to fully appraise the situation and helps them stay calmer.

I'll agree with you on the tunnel vision aspect, because there is no way around it. And I'll agree with you that you need to decide if you are carrying weapons with a round in the chamber or not. I don't think I'd go as far as agree with you on loosing so much dexterity that a thumb safety becomes an impediment.

As to the theory of a short trigger (and that kimber has an adjustable match grade trigger). I am not a police officer. If my gun comes out of my holster I better be mentally prepared to shoot someone, I better have enough reason to shoot someone. If that gun comes up and points to a target I better be prepared to shoot them. The gun better never be pointed at anything I do not intend to shoot The fact of the matter is, should a gun accidentally discharge in that case, is it really that tragic?

Its a carry gun. If you need it your never going to win a "quick draw" contest with it. I think it imperative that your training focus on a reasonable speed draw that allows the gun to be brought into a ready to fire position. If you practice draw and fire single movement actions you may find yourself legally in the wrong (in MI I have to present a weapon before using it, though there is no time min on that presentation, it may be a simple draw and fire). Its not important who fires first, its important who fires last.

/PS - not that any training I do relies on "nerves of steel" Even with my Sig I find myself trying to flip off a safety (habit from my Browning Hi-power I first was serious with). The fact is the movement is natural enough for me even on a gun without it.

[BeaverEater]

dumb California gun laws :mad:
you can get the permit in cali but it will be awfully hard. The only 2 states that dont allow any type of civilian carry is wisconsin and illinios I believe. I saw a map of the states that allowed it and those are the only 2 that i remember not allowing any. Other states may allow but may have restrictions and such in how many they hand out.

[Steelrat]

I would point out the practice of the Israeli Defense Forces as the counter example. The IDF carries their weapons (we assume only in a non-offensive situation) without a round chambered. They are trained to pull the slide back as they bring the weapon up. The theory is that it allows them a moment to fully appraise the situation and helps them stay calmer.

I'll agree with you on the tunnel vision aspect, because there is no way around it. And I'll agree with you that you need to decide if you are carrying weapons with a round in the chamber or not. I don't think I'd go as far as agree with you on loosing so much dexterity that a thumb safety becomes an impediment.

As to the theory of a short trigger (and that kimber has an adjustable match grade trigger). I am not a police officer. If my gun comes out of my holster I better be mentally prepared to shoot someone, I better have enough reason to shoot someone. If that gun comes up and points to a target I better be prepared to shoot them. The gun better never be pointed at anything I do not intend to shoot The fact of the matter is, should a gun accidentally discharge in that case, is it really that tragic?

Its a carry gun. If you need it your never going to win a "quick draw" contest with it. I think it imperative that your training focus on a reasonable speed draw that allows the gun to be brought into a ready to fire position. If you practice draw and fire single movement actions you may find yourself legally in the wrong (in MI I have to present a weapon before using it, though there is no time min on that presentation, it may be a simple draw and fire). Its not important who fires first, its important who fires last.

/PS - not that any training I do relies on "nerves of steel" Even with my Sig I find myself trying to flip off a safety (habit from my Browning Hi-power I first was serious with). The fact is the movement is natural enough for me even on a gun without it.

IDF training relates to military matters, not civilian carry. I've heard their whole "no round chambered" crap before, and it's useless for US police and self-defense carry. If there is a situation that comes up where you are going to need to fire a gun, it is going to be very close, and happen very, very fast. Anyone who follows that IDF crap will just end up dead.

As for the rest, it sounds like you pretty much have your mind made up about the whole thing. Good luck, and enjoy the nice Kimber.

[Lohman446]

IDF training relates to military matters, not civilian carry. I've heard their whole "no round chambered" crap before, and it's useless for US police and self-defense carry. If there is a situation that comes up where you are going to need to fire a gun, it is going to be very close, and happen very, very fast. Anyone who follows that IDF crap will just end up dead.

As for the rest, it sounds like you pretty much have your mind made up about the whole thing. Good luck, and enjoy the nice Kimber.

I don't carry one without a round chambered :), it was just a consideration. I think police and civilan matters are far different and I would hope at contact range I would not need to draw a weapon. Keep in mind I have a black belt in Kenpo and have trained pretty well in contact distance defense in an unarmed position. I figure a gun just gives me another level, and the ability to control a situation better. And yes, I am prepared to use it should the need arise. I don't look at it as arguing with anyone, I figure hearing all the sides of a discussion is always worth it, and considering the various reasons things are done one way or another is worth it. Honestly you may have a very valid point on the undesirability of a massive change in weapons from day to day carry.

[geekwarrior]

you can get the permit in cali but it will be awfully hard. The only 2 states that dont allow any type of civilian carry is wisconsin and illinios I believe. I saw a map of the states that allowed it and those are the only 2 that i remember not allowing any. Other states may allow but may have restrictions and such in how many they hand out.

yes, its near impossible. That doesnt bother me as much as the fact that I cant buy an AR15 or 50 cal sniper rifle. sigh

[Recon by Fire]

Well, I carry because I work for the CIA. International espionage, and what have you.

/please don't tell anyone


See you in the office tomorrow morning, you bringing donuts? :cool:



Who carries concealed? Honest law abiding citizens who exercise their rights, that's who. Armed citizens make poor would be victims ;)

Under DHS/FPS we carry locked and loaded with no safety (sort of - Glocks). If we are found to be carrying with our weapons not hot, you can expect to be fired. Personal wise though I also carry locked and loaded but do have the safety engaged.

[Beemer]

why I had these marked and I wont have to lie.


http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdgcon.html

http://www.moccw.org/map.html


http://www.moccw.org/images/ccwmap.gif

[Pacifist_Farmer]

And that is why my fireamrs live in VT.

As was my understanding a few years ago, the only town you can't carry a loaded weapon in is Montpelier, I'm sure it has to do with the safety of our elected officials.

[Maggot6]

I was glad to be armed (even if it was underarmed). Hence the "need" for a new carry gun.

I am a Canadian, so obviously it has been drilled into my head through school that "guns are bad"...
However, I have always wondered, if you are carrying a Glock, or you are carrying a Sig, how much difference does the bullet size make? Wont it just sort of be, 9mm's of damage vs the .45's damage? If you shoot someone in the shoulder with a 9mm/.45 wont it still disable them from using the shoulder? If you have any size gun, how can you be under-armed?

Obviously I've never been shot either....

[Steelrat]

I am a Canadian, so obviously it has been drilled into my head through school that "guns are bad"...
However, I have always wondered, if you are carrying a Glock, or you are carrying a Sig, how much difference does the bullet size make? Wont it just sort of be, 9mm's of damage vs the .45's damage? If you shoot someone in the shoulder with a 9mm/.45 wont it still disable them from using the shoulder? If you have any size gun, how can you be under-armed?

Obviously I've never been shot either....

Different rounds have different capabilites. It's not just a function of physical size, but also weight, velocity, and construction. The 9mm is regarded as being less effective than .40 or .45 when it comes to stopping a threat. You want to be able to stop them as quickly as possible, and .45 does that better than almost any other handgun round.

[93civiccpe]

Different rounds have different capabilites. It's not just a function of physical size, but also weight, velocity, and construction. The 9mm is regarded as being less effective than .40 or .45 when it comes to stopping a threat. You want to be able to stop them as quickly as possible, and .45 does that better than almost any other handgun round.


The 9mm got a bad wrap because the original rounds didn't have much stopping power. The .45acp was deemed a perfect weapon for knockdown, but the round was more expensive and the magazines couldn't hold many of them. The .40 was a compromise, but most feel it still doesn't have a significant advantage over a 9mm. Anyways, a lot has changed since the earlier days. If you have the right bullets in a 9mm (hydrashock for example), then it is a perfectly fine takedown weapon. Why else would the majority of our police forces in the states use them. If you shoot a person twice in center mass with a 9mm with the right ammunition then it will be effective. Personally, I never could justify carrying around a .45 for a carry weapon. I know a lot of guys who carry small .380 pistols as carry weapons and they have proved themselves as well with the right ammunition.

Most people carrying a concealed weapon will tell you that they hope it never has to come out of otheir pockets. You never want to be in that situation, but if you ever are in that situation and have a concealed weapon and choose to use it, then you better know how to use it. I remember reading a lot of historical novels about assassins, and the primary round the assassin would use is the .22. For them it was all about shot placement and they usually only got one shot to get the kill. I'm not saying to carry a .22, but I am using this to show that if you know how to use a .380 or 9mm properly it can make a perfectly fine concealed weapon.

[Pneumagger]

Another thing to be considered is the velocity of a round. I shoot a .40 (a CZ 75) and it is a nice balance of power between a 9mm and a .45 ACP. One problem I've often heard about is the fact that .40 can and often does "overpenetrate". It is more powerful than a 9 and much quicker than a .45 and has the tendancy to overpenetrate a target and go sailing onto whatever lies behind it. Not something that is desirable. I was target shooting out in the boon docks once with a 7" thick cedar back stop. Upon inspection after a few magazines, I'd discovered that alot were making it all the way trough the stop. :eek: They were solid target slugs though...not JHP's. you can buy a rediculous amout of that cheap target ammo at dicks. like 250rnds for $15

Although I have been looking into a compensated 10mm - which is considered to be something you carry for large animal protection (like fram bears ahile hunting). I imagine that that slug would over penetrate nearly all the time though, and I hear they kick alot.

Anyone here ever shot a .50AE or .44mag - talk about power :wow:

[Lohman446]

I have a .40 actually. I like it but do not like it as an alternative to the 45 or 357 Sig - both of which have shown tremendous stopping power.

I have a 357 Sig - basically a 40 necked down to 9MM. Tremendous stopping power, tremendously quick bullet, but overpenetration is a major concern. You get the same number of shots as with a 40 with stopping power of a 45 or perhaps a bit better.

I realize the 9MM has come a long way, but I see far too many police units taking budget into consideration when selecting a sidearm. Keep in mind I was prepared to buy a 9MM or a carryable .40 when I began looking. They are good enough. I liked the .45 better, and once I had moved over in choice of handguns I do still beleive the 45 is better than the 9MM. Though I do realize the 45 is overglorified and the 9MM is under appreciated and the difference between the two is not as great as some would like you to think.

I would have purchased a gun chambered in a select few rounds. 380 was considered the bottom end. 9MM and 40 were both the "accepted" caliber going in. 357 Sig in a carryable platform was preferred but I did not expect to find it. I would ahve considered the 45GAP even though I don't like "oddity" cartridges (I make an exception for the 357SIG). The 380NAA was out for the same reason. 45 to me is always a great option, and it provides reasonably priced practice ammo.

Besides, I really liked the gun. I had it in my hand with a Baby Glock in 40, an XD in 40, and a Kahr in 9MM as my "final four" in the selection. The Kimber, for various reasons, was far and away the best choice for me once I had taken cost out of the equation.

[billybob_81067]

Most people carrying a concealed weapon will tell you that they hope it never has to come out of otheir pockets. You never want to be in that situation, but if you ever are in that situation and have a concealed weapon and choose to use it, then you better know how to use it. I remember reading a lot of historical novels about assassins, and the primary round the assassin would use is the .22. For them it was all about shot placement and they usually only got one shot to get the kill. I'm not saying to carry a .22, but I am using this to show that if you know how to use a .380 or 9mm properly it can make a perfectly fine concealed weapon.

I've always wondered why more people don't carry .22's You can kill anything with them, you just gotta shoot where it counts. I've actually been thinking about getting a .22 LR semi auto pistol to carry just because it seems like these damn squirrels/prairie dogs around here always show up when you don't have a rifle nearby. :mad:

[Pneumagger]

do they make .22 magnum pistols?

[geekwarrior]

I've always wondered why more people don't carry .22's You can kill anything with them, you just gotta shoot where it counts. I've actually been thinking about getting a .22 LR semi auto pistol to carry just because it seems like these damn squirrels/prairie dogs around here always show up when you don't have a rifle nearby. :mad:

gotta be a pretty good shot to get a squirrel on the run with a 22 handgun...maybe with a red dot or something

[Lohman446]

do they make .22 magnum pistols?

I know I have seen revolvers in that available.

[going_home]

why I had these marked and I wont have to lie.


http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdgcon.html

http://www.moccw.org/map.html


http://www.moccw.org/images/ccwmap.gif

I think governer Jeb just recently last year added Florida to the unrestricted states.

:clap:

[billybob_81067]

do they make .22 magnum pistols?

I've seen plenty in .22 LR, but not in magnum. I have however seen an ad (a long time ago!) for a single shot pistol chambered for 22-250 and other rifle cartridges... Talk about overpenetration!!! :p

[Lohman446]

I think governer Jeb just recently last year added Florida to the unrestricted states.

:clap:

Still required to have a permit. Thus restricted

[lather]

Hawaii may be listed as a "May issue", but in reality it is a "right denied" state.

You can apply for CCW issue via a letter to the Chief of Police, but you will automatically get a form letter denying any request for CCW.

My Glock 31 cannot leave my place of residence unless I have it locked in the trunk of my car and must be either heading to the range or gunsmith. :rolleyes:

[Lohman446]

One reason I'm looking into the XD over the Glock in striker pistols is the fact that it has the addition of the grip saftey. Now I know that it's not a true safty in the sense that it needs disengaged, but it's just one extra level I guess. Plus, have you ever shot one? The ergonomics are really nice compared to most oher pistols. Plus, with the .45 GAP, the grip isn't bulky at all and the double stack gives alot more shots..

Consider the Taurus millenium series. I don't think they are a great price for what you get but they are nice little guns too.

[Steelrat]

Anyone here ever shot a .50AE or .44mag - talk about power :wow:

Wanna kill a bear? .500 S&W all the way.

http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/916/5002ep1.jpg

http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/7420/500swfi8.jpg

For comparison, thats a .44 magnum on the left :wow:

[Lohman446]

Wanna kill a bear? .500 S&W all the way.


My thoughts if I buy a big frame revolver is that new 460 S&W something like 2300FPS out of the barrel.

[NewbieMagMan10988]

Wanna kill a bear?


Yes

:shooting: :bear:

[Maksimus54]

I think the whole caliber for a carry is looked into too deeply. I'd rather be packing a .22lr than dreaming of .45 . Most situations would only require the firearm to be showed to scare others. There aren't many people that are going to stare down your gun and start questioning what caliber your packing. Those kimbers are sweet. I'd really like one someday. And yes I'd pick a .45 over a 9mm most of the time, but I have a 9 so its what I'll carry.

[Lohman446]

I think the whole caliber for a carry is looked into too deeply. I'd rather be packing a .22lr than dreaming of .45 . Most situations would only require the firearm to be showed to scare others. There aren't many people that are going to stare down your gun and start questioning what caliber your packing. Those kimbers are sweet. I'd really like one someday. And yes I'd pick a .45 over a 9mm most of the time, but I have a 9 so its what I'll carry.

Better a 22 in your hand than a 44 magnum in the safe. That being said I am not going to go with the theory of "I'll probably not have to use it if I draw it" as I think that type of thing leads into situations just escalating from someone carrying. If you are going to draw it you better be prepared to use it and count on it. Regardless of my attacker (assuming human) I have full confidence in this gun.

[SCpoloRicker]

Most situations would only require the firearm to be showed to scare others.

Uh, I'm pretty sure that Gun Safety 101 has a pretty much ironclad rule against pointing a weapon at anything you're not intending to shoot.

Unless you're in LE, in which case drawing without intending to fire may occur from time to time.

/and I'm guessing you're not

[Lohman446]

Standard rule I was taught was this.

If you show your weapon with threat its felonious brandishment, you better have enough reason to justify it (and it would be the same justification as it would take to justify actually pulling the trigger).

If you point your weapon it becomes felonious assault, and you better have enough reason to justify it (see above).

If you don't intend to pull the trigger, keep your weapon in the holster. If before you even consider carrying you don't intend to pull the trigger should the need arise, don't bother.

[Troen]

Standard rule I was taught was this.

If you show your weapon with threat its felonious brandishment, you better have enough reason to justify it (and it would be the same justification as it would take to justify actually pulling the trigger).

If you point your weapon it becomes felonious assault, and you better have enough reason to justify it (see above).

If you don't intend to pull the trigger, keep your weapon in the holster. If before you even consider carrying you don't intend to pull the trigger should the need arise, don't bother.
so basically; Dont carry it if you're going to just flash it?

[Recon by Fire]

do they make .22 magnum pistols?


Yeah, they call it a FN 5.7x28mm ;)
http://www.floridagunworks.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/1352.jpg

The 5.7mm round is better known associated with this:
http://www.impactguns.com/store/media/fn_civil_p90.jpg

But since you likely cannot buy the good AP 5.7 ammunition, why bother?

[Recon by Fire]

so basically; Dont carry it if you're going to just flash it?


Correct, it's not nice to tease :cool:

[Steelrat]

Yeah, they call it a FN 5.7x28mm ;)
http://www.floridagunworks.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/1352.jpg

The 5.7mm round is better known associated with this:
http://www.impactguns.com/store/media/fn_civil_p90.jpg

But since you likely cannot buy the good AP 5.7 ammunition, why bother?

Yeah, because everyone needs to have the stuff than can penetrate body armor.

Frankly, the P90 doesn't impress me, and neither does that pistol. But at least they are trying to innovate, so I have to give them some credit.

[rkjunior303]

LOL where did you guys grow up, the projects? I have never, ever once been put in a situation where I wish I had some sort of protection with me nor have i ever considered carrying.. isn't that kinda like waiting for the doomsday scenario? :)

[SCpoloRicker]

LOL @ teh FNs!!1

/*boom* headshot

[Lohman446]

LOL where did you guys grow up, the projects? I have never, ever once been put in a situation where I wish I had some sort of protection with me nor have i ever considered carrying.. isn't that kinda like waiting for the doomsday scenario? :)


At the field the other day we took a break from paintball to light off a few rounds (yes, safely). You'd be surprised how polite everyone was the rest of the day :D

Besides RK, you don't have to deal with a mentally unstable ex-wife on a regular basis, or her equally as questionable current husband.

[rkjunior303]

At the field the other day we took a break from paintball to light off a few rounds (yes, safely). You'd be surprised how polite everyone was the rest of the day :D

Besides RK, you don't have to deal with a mentally unstable ex-wife on a regular basis, or her equally as questionable current husband.

very true. i've had a couple crazies in my day - boston girls are WACK.

[hipster]

I made the mistake of telling a true a story for info purposes once in this section so I wont do it again

but i will say I have had lic to carry concealed since 1990 and have carried almost every day since I have tried and own a lot of pistols but so far the two which I have found to be the most comfortable to carry, easiest to maintane and shoot are the sig 239 in 40 and the glock

But I do understand the beauty of the traditional 1911 styled like the kimber

in the end though just make sure it is a comfortable gun to shoot __comfort and practice breed accuracy -once you have that you will never feel underarmed again ( unless you get caught with out it ;) )

I have heard good things about the styer m40 maybe that will be the next one to try

[Lohman446]

Disagree. I am fairly competent with my Beretta Tomcat, I did feel underarmed. Granted I was not at all comfortable (using, though my accuracy is ok) with my 357 MAG

That being said, I love my P239 in 357 Sig. Great gun. That being said its a little too thick for me to call a good carry gun for me. I wish they had offered the same gun in single stack.

[Recon by Fire]

LOL @ teh FNs!!1

/*boom* headshot


:rofl:



Oh, I guess Berreta is also getting into the .45 Govt bid with a new 45ACP PX4. I never really liked the PX4 just based on aesthetics, but recently I held one and I was surprised at how comfortable the grip was.

[Linkwarner]

And of course, I live in the wonderful state of Illinois, ruled by Gun Nazis.
Ok back on subject, I love my 1911, but it would not be ideal for concealed carry, specially in this type of weather. Not that i would anyway ;)