Does this make sense?

[Lenny]

Ok, I was reviewing my collection of Web Dog Tip Clip videos and was reminded of of a thought I used to ponder. According to Tyger, TK explained some very simple math to him that we all probably would've known had we ever thought about it (or I). If a string of paint was flying in the air at an equal 300fps at 10bps, that's roughly 30ft of space between each ball. Now, without equating in arc or the speed at which they fall or air resistence, that's a .2667 second gap between shots (assuming all fly in a straight path to an exact 80ft detination).

I don't know about you guys, but my friend says that is plenty of time to run through the line IF in a full sprint. I would say vaguely possible to near impossible, but, it serves a good point:

Do we really need higher rates of fire? At just 10 bps, there is already that tiny of a time gap, so I figure, wouldn't reducing velocities lower the gap even more? Instead of 30ft between 80ft long shots at .2667 seconds, it would be more like 28ft (280fps) between 80ft long shots at x<0.2667 seconds? (I tried calculating it out, but I'm not sure of a good approximation of distance at this velocity). The way I see it, the lower the velocity, the lesser the speed gaps.

Now, also figure this: many people are fully capable of firing streams in bursts of approx. 15bps. That would change the numbers around a bit, but tremendously decreases the time gap by a full 1/3. We always say more than 15bps is unneccessary and wasteful (though impressive), and always argue that a human finger cannot pull that fast anyway (which has potential to be true, at least in many cases); so why hasn't anyone argued this point? Not only is the whole 20+ thing wastefull, uneccessary, inaccurate, but even impractical!

Now, I know there are alot of physics and calc. that alter things quite a bit, but stating narrowly, wouldn't this prove the point a bit better?

Either way, it'll shut the little AGG kids up over at the Nation. :cheers:

-And yeah, I did think this all up my self
/at work

- and yeah, work really is that boring
//really

[CrimsonGhost]

It HAS been argued a few times around here and a few other places.

Most of the 15+ bps stuff is a marketing tool and /or a case of giving the customer what they want.
Also I think it is part of the nature of competition ... Mine is faster than yours.

15+ bps is kinda like buying a sports car... You don't NEED it to go over 70 mph .

[Pneumagger]

wouldn't 10bps be .1 seconds between every ball with 30 feet of spacing?

20 bps should be .05 seconds with 15 feet between shots. This is at the barrel though. As the balls move downrange, there gets ot be less distance between each shot as the balls low down. If the balls slow down to ~200fps, you're looking at 10 fett between shots and @ 150fps around 7.5 feet between shots. You're not gonna get too many breaks from much lower velicities. Also, you have to remember...it only takes short distance out of the barrel for balls to deccellerate to 200fps. Offhand, I'd say is exponential.

Not physics...algebra.

[Hexis]

Not physics...algebra.

Not algebra, calculus. Physics is calculus.

[paintman1234]

I often miss with 15.... :(

[Troen]

I often miss with 15.... :(
then hook up 1,200 psi into your mag.

[paintman1234]

hehehe, I tried that when I had my mag

[geekwarrior]

i have noticed that I play just as well with my mag at 5-8 bps as my Speed at 15bps. Course I suck with both... :rolleyes:

[Pneumagger]

Not algebra, calculus. Physics is calculus.

I'm saying it is niether physics nor calculus.

300fps / 15bps = 20 feet between balls

This is algebra. plain and simple. Until you start to factor in decelleration due to drag...it is not physics or calculus.

[NewbieMagMan10988]

Ok, hers the deal,


At 10BPS, at about 285 FPS there is a small amount of space in beetween balls.

However...

As soon as the ball leaves the barrel, the velocity drops A GREAT amount. This opens up the space inbeetween balls. This is true even at 30 BPS, or whatever.

Point is,


Run fast.... dodge paint...

Run slow.....eat paint....

Or just play pump.


LALALa

Mike

[Pneumagger]

As soon as the ball leaves the barrel, the velocity drops A GREAT amount.
True




Run fast.... dodge paint...

Run slow.....eat paint....

Or just play pump.

True




As soon as the ball leaves the barrel, the velocity drops A GREAT amount. This opens up the space inbeetween balls. This is true even at 30 BPS, or whatever.


False

Asuming the gun fires at a constant rate and is stationary: As the balls slow down the space between them DECREASES. The flux of shots past a particular point in the stream will remain constant. This is true (and must remain so) given the same forces are exerted on each ball at repective positions in their trejectory.

But as the velocity decreases very rapidly due to the drag and lightweight of a paintball, the spacial separtation between 2 subsequent paintballs must decrease to satisfy the constant flux of paint through a given point in the string of shots. You see, the flux of shots at any given point in the string must remain constant, otherwise you imply that each ball is experienceing different forces on it once it leaves the barrel. That notion is what we like to call the "Budd Orr Syndrome"...and cannot happen in reality. Now marketing, That is a whole 'nother story. :rofl:

300fps / 15bps = 20 feet between balls
285fps / 15bps = 19 feet between balls
200fps / 15bps = 13' 4" between balls
150fps / 15bps = 10 feet between balls

.00383fps is when balls start "stacking" on each other - by this point, they have either hit the ground or gravity has noticably effected their movement so they are not travelling this slowly.

[zaqwert6]

I don't care what the math says... from across the field , off the break for instance where ROF is most important , you can run thru 10 bps all day long.

That's not even considering the fact that as the ball slows ( which it does 'greatly' at that distance ) a single ball hitting and breaking on you is even a greater long shot. ( pun intended ;) )

[Lenny]

True


True



False

Asuming the gun fires at a constant rate and is stationary: As the balls slow down the space between them DECREASES. The flux of shots past a particular point in the stream will remain constant. This is true (and must remain so) given the same forces are exerted on each ball at repective positions in their trejectory.

But as the velocity decreases very rapidly due to the drag and lightweight of a paintball, the spacial separtation between 2 subsequent paintballs must decrease to satisfy the constant flux of paint through a given point in the string of shots. You see, the flux of shots at any given point in the string must remain constant, otherwise you imply that each ball is experienceing different forces on it once it leaves the barrel. That notion is what we like to call the "Budd Orr Syndrome"...and cannot happen in reality. Now marketing, That is a whole 'nother story. :rofl:

300fps / 15bps = 20 feet between balls
285fps / 15bps = 19 feet between balls
200fps / 15bps = 13' 4" between balls
150fps / 15bps = 10 feet between balls

.00383fps is when balls start "stacking" on each other - by this point, they have either hit the ground or gravity has noticably effected their movement so they are not travelling this slowly.

That's sort of what I tried to say.

My whole point initially was why do we argue ROF with just finger speed? why not also this sort of deal. Everyone keeps their velocity as high as they're allowed, but it's really a gentle combo of velocity and ROF that'll make speedball playing (or more specifically, break shooting) more effective.

:clap: Yay for post 200! It only took me a few years... :tard:

[dahoeb]

i don't think its THAT easy to run through a stream at 10 or 15 bps, its probably a 50/50 chance of getting hit. but if you follow the person with your stream (assuming your able to) you'll almost certainly get them, if you can aim.

[paintman1234]

True


True



False

Asuming the gun fires at a constant rate and is stationary: As the balls slow down the space between them DECREASES. The flux of shots past a particular point in the stream will remain constant. This is true (and must remain so) given the same forces are exerted on each ball at repective positions in their trejectory.

But as the velocity decreases very rapidly due to the drag and lightweight of a paintball, the spacial separtation between 2 subsequent paintballs must decrease to satisfy the constant flux of paint through a given point in the string of shots. You see, the flux of shots at any given point in the string must remain constant, otherwise you imply that each ball is experienceing different forces on it once it leaves the barrel. That notion is what we like to call the "Budd Orr Syndrome"...and cannot happen in reality. Now marketing, That is a whole 'nother story. :rofl:

300fps / 15bps = 20 feet between balls
285fps / 15bps = 19 feet between balls
200fps / 15bps = 13' 4" between balls
150fps / 15bps = 10 feet between balls

.00383fps is when balls start "stacking" on each other - by this point, they have either hit the ground or gravity has noticably effected their movement so they are not travelling this slowly.

so basically we have to find the right combo setting the gun low enough fps wise that the balls are close togather yet actually break when they hit something... hmmm.... I may just turn my velocity down a little

[m-a-r-k-7]

Being able to run through a line of 10 bps doesn't seem too hard to test.

1. have person with a gun with a board capeable of setting 10bps full auto

2. find another to participate in this experiment

3. Begin to fire at a target (target it so you don't subconsiously cheat and move the gun)

4. Have other participant run as fast as they can through the line of fire (mask on, of course)

5. Repeat so you get a general idea as to the results

[paint magnet]

True, on paper it doesn't seem like much of an advantage. Statistically though, the more paint you have in the air, the more you are likely to hit your target. Having a slightly less accurate gun with a high rate of fire on a small course tends to be an advantage when shooting at moving targets as you get a nice shotgun effect. The intimidation factor can be quite useful too.

Don't get me wrong though, I'm not an advocate for high rates of fire (as I shoot a Classic Mag and Nelspot), but it sure is fun :D

[athomas]

At 10 bps, the distance between balls in the air varies with velocity. However, the time between balls in the air always remains constant if the shot parameters are the same for each shot. So, at 10bps, there is .1 sec between balls. The average person runs about 15mph which is 22fps. Therefore, a person would travel 2.2 feet in .1 seconds. Based on this, you could run through the stream without getting hit, but you would have to hit the "hole" just right. On the other hand, for practical purposes, the shots are almost never in identical spots, nor are the guns providing perfect shot to shot consistency. Still, it would be very difficult to run through any well placed stream of paint at any rate of fire at or above 10 balls per second.

[SpitFire1299]

The more you let out of your gun, the more chances you have of hitting someone. Just shoot and make a circle with your gun or something.. lol

[buzzboy]

In game situaltion I pull about 5 on my mag usually and fast people get through it but not slow ones.

I believe that mark7 has a good though. If someone(warpig) did a test with a stationary gun shooting 280 fps and have a target on a pully. Then every FA bps could be tested up to like 7 or 8 mph(I think thats about what the normal person runs). And make the target like a person to see just how much paint actually breaks.

[jsdatjsd]

Uh, I always thought the 15bps was so that if you sucked at aiming, then your shots would go all over the place, thus hitting a larger spread, like a shotgun.

See, if your aim is good, 15 BPS looks like this==> O

That by the way, is 15 balls hitting the same spot.

But if your aim is bad, it looks like this below:
00000
00000
00000

THat is 15 balls hitting 15 spots. More area.

SO, in theory, 15bps is good for those that can't aim.

And, add that to the fact that even at todays relatively inexpensive paint prices, the manufacturers of the paintballs WANT everyone to shoot 15bps.

And that is why all the adverts aim towards speedball type games.