Is AGD DOA?

[eadtf]

Why is it that while other marker manufactures’ continuously develop and produce new technologies and improve on their past, AGD seems to be dead in the water resting on their laurels.

O.k. there have been a few improvements to the bolt assembly and several attempts to re-brand their same basic mag style, but I am talking about not resting on their laurels and designing something new and cutting edge.

I am loyal to AGD, I have an original RT Pro and a X-Mag but lets face it, comparing markers like the new Angel 1 to AGD mags is like comparing a Bentley to a Chevey Camaro. Sure they both get you from A to B and the Camaro has allot of possible mods and upgrades, but the Bentley comes with every upgrade, runs 100% of the time, has a great warranty, and almost never has a critical failure of key components.

Just looking to spark a discussion, trust me I am a loyal AGDer :headbang:

After thoughts:

Bless LorneCash for the XMOD, but why did it take an AGDer to develop it? Why is it that nobody can find aftermarket wooden grips? Several of the top online shops don’t even carry parts or addons for AGD markers. Is AGD dieing?

[SlartyBartFast]

Why is it that nobody can find aftermarket wooden grips?

You want us to take you serious about upgrading technology and one of your complaints is not being able to find woodengrips?

:rofl:

AGD is long from dead. They just don't try to cater to the tourny kids anymore.

[Muzikman]

Oh god, not again. Do a quick search and you will find 10,000 threads just like this one with every possible answer you want to hear.

[eadtf]

You want us to take you serious about upgrading technology and one of your complaints is not being able to find woodengrips?

:rofl:

AGD is long from dead. They just don't try to cater to the tourny kids anymore.


After thought does not = biggest complaint...

You get the point I am making right?!?!

I would agree they don't cater to tourney ball but come on some new LIGHTER technoogy would be a good start.

Regarding "not again" Every thread here has been seen before...

[Muzikman]

Ok, name 2 guns that are not using technology that has been in the paintball world for the last 10 year?

The reason an AO member had to create the Xmod is because AGD didn't/doesn't want the liability that such software opens a company (or person) up to.

Is AGD dead? No, you can call the number and they will answer the phone.

Should AGD come out with a new gun? It would be nice, but if they are happy where they are currently at, what's the point?

Between 2000 and 2004 AGD came out with more advancments to their guns than just about any other company. Just because they don't relelease a new milling each year doesn't mean R&D was not spent.

Some where I listed all the AGD products to come out over the years. The amount of new products was amazing.

[BigEvil]

Ok, name 2 guns that are not using technology that has been in the paintball world for the last 10 year?




Thats 100% correct, but paintball has little to do with advancing technology at this point. It has to do all about marketing, and being trendy. Something AGD could not ever do.

However if you look around you.. you may notice lots of guys have or are selling off their mags. There are just way too many nice shiney new toys out there. In another two years you, Atacone and I will be the only ones left with mags.

In this day and age, not many players want to spend $900 on a new high end electro without firing modes OR an eye system. When you think about it, how hard would it have been to upgrade the software? How difficult to add break beam eyes at the factory? There are ton of minor upgrades that could have been done by AGD that would have at least kept things a little fresh.

I do see more and more Tacs showing up at scenaro games. AGD said they wanted in that market, now they have their foot in the door. Time to come out with something else for the sceario guys.

[eadtf]

Ok, name 2 guns that are not using technology that has been in the paintball world for the last 10 year?

The reason an AO member had to create the Xmod is because AGD didn't/doesn't want the liability that such software opens a company (or person) up to.

Is AGD dead? No, you can call the number and they will answer the phone.

Should AGD come out with a new gun? It would be nice, but if they are happy where they are currently at, what's the point?

Between 2000 and 2004 AGD came out with more advancments to their guns than just about any other company. Just because they don't relelease a new milling each year doesn't mean R&D was not spent.

Some where I listed all the AGD products to come out over the years. The amount of new products was amazing.

I could rebut but your missing my point.

[eadtf]

Thats 100% correct, but paintball has little to do with advancing technology at this point. It has to do all about marketing, and being trendy. Something AGD could not ever do.

However if you look around you.. you may notice lots of guys have or are selling off their mags. There are just way too many nice shiney new toys out there. In another two years you, Atacone and I will be the only ones left with mags.

In this day and age, not many players want to spend $900 on a new high end electro without firing modes OR an eye system. When you think about it, how hard would it have been to upgrade the software? How difficult to add break beam eyes at the factory? There are ton of minor upgrades that could have been done by AGD that would have at least kept things a little fresh.

I do see more and more Tacs showing up at scenaro games. AGD said they wanted in that market, now they have their foot in the door. Time to come out with something else for the sceario guys.

BigEvil thank you, you get my point... But add me to the list of dead-cold-hands gripping a my RT in one and XMAG in the other, I will never trade up.

You are right they did say they were going to put their efforts to scenario ball, but they need to freshen it up a bit.

[BigEvil]

I will never trade up.



I dont see a reason to. There isnt anythng that another gun can do that my mags cannot now. (Even though it required Lornecash to come up with the xmod, and me to make my own e-frame)

And to tell you the truth, most new guns feel like toys. I grew up shooting real firearms, so that plasticy-cheezy aluminum stuff just isnt my style. There is just something about my mags that I love. The only other guns that I liked were the older Angels, and you see where WDP went with their new stuff? The 06 Borgs are interesting, I may check them out, but I doubt I will pick up anything new for a while.

[Muzikman]

I could rebut but your missing my point.

Umm, I don't think I am missing anything. I am pointing to reasons why AGD has not come out with anything new lately.

BTW, even when the mag was the gun to own, there were few aftermarket parts for them.

[Muzikman]

Here, I'll place my preveios post in with your quote.


Why is it that while other marker manufactures’ continuously develop and produce new technologies and improve on their past, AGD seems to be dead in the water resting on their laurels.

O.k. there have been a few improvements to the bolt assembly and several attempts to re-brand their same basic mag style, but I am talking about not resting on their laurels and designing something new and cutting edge.


Ok, name 2 guns that are not using technology that has been in the paintball world for the last 10 year? <--- what company has come out with new technologies in the gun world? Maybe the software, but that's about it.


Between 2000 and 2004 AGD came out with more advancements to their guns than just about any other company. Just because they don't relelease a new milling each year doesn't mean R&D was not spent.

Some where I listed all the AGD products to come out over the years. The amount of new products was amazing.

Was the Level 10 bolt system a technological improvement on their past? Wasn't the Y-Grip a technical improvement on their past? Wasn't the X-Valve a technological improvement on their past (and a weight save)? Was the ULE bodies a weight saving improvement on their past? Wasn't the ULT a technological improvement on their past? Wasn't the ULE rails and frames a weight saving improvement on their past? Wasn't the WarpFeed a technological advance? How about the Flatline with all its safety features that other companies still refuse to add to their systems.





After thoughts:

Bless LorneCash for the XMOD, but why did it take an AGDer to develop it? Why is it that nobody can find aftermarket wooden grips? Several of the top online shops don’t even carry parts or addons for AGD markers. Is AGD dieing?

The reason an AO member had to create the Xmod is because AGD didn't/doesn't want the liability that such software opens a company (or person) up to.



Ok, maybe I don't get your point.

[SlartyBartFast]

I would agree they don't cater to tourney ball but come on some new LIGHTER technoogy would be a good start.

Uhm, ULE?!?! :rolleyes:

A ULE RT Pro is as light as any other marker out there. No? :confused:

Or are you caught in a time warp where they only still sell stainless bodies and valves? :p

The woodgrips may have been an afterthought, but it puts you right out of the early nineties. I don't think you can buy new wood grips on the open market for ANY markers other than in stock class circles.

Been a VERY LONG time since those were the thing to have. :cool:

And a Bently, let alone an Angel One, running 100% of the time? :rofl: What planet are you from? Not without meticulous maintenance they don't.

[Lohman446]

Gee.. as outspoken as I have been that mags are not "all that" your going to find one in my gear bag for as long as I play. They are great at being what they are. I told someone once, be you, your the best you you can be. Mags have a niche - they are, to many people, the best mechanical marker available. Why change. Who can be more of a mag than a mag.

Its niche marketing, know your market, and market to it. I'm sorry guys, making a mag competetive against the newest markers in a world of ramping, eyes, crappy paint, and accuracy by volume takes far more than most people are willing to do. Why try to be something you are not?

Mags are what they are. Niche marketting in paintball has been as successful as anything else. Lets consider Glen Palmer as the example. PPS is what it started out as, and they are still as popular as ever. Think of the "cutting edge" failures.

This is not a topic worthy of deep blue....

[hgp3fat]

Suggestions? Ok... I made a joke in another thread about MULE bodies (Mega Ultra Light Engineering) and actually had people ask me where to get them. AGD could find some way to make ULE stock, into MULE's (olive drab ones for the scenario guys, Government MULES).

For increased marketing, I suggested setting a Guiness World Record, and showed proof of how they could get free advertising from it.

I've seen it suggested they cut their losses with the Warp and team up with Q-Loader on a marker.

I have ideas on products and marketing I'll share with them (and you guys for free, I just want a free one). Newer automags use hpa only, but most people still have co2 tanks... well make a pod holder/cooling vest that uses circulating co2 to cool you down... In camouflage! Great for a teamup campaign with SpecOps or even OpsGear.

But does AGD really want a bigger share of the market? Or are they happy with their niche? Would you like to see the automag become the next ion? Or stay that cool band that you only know about... the one nobody else has ever heard, but they always say "That f'n rocks dude!"


edit- Move this to PB Talk...

[BigEvil]

Thats what aftermarket guys are for. Nothing keeping someone from buying the shiney, fresh, RPG mag with minor upgrades like ReTents, Viperblade triggers, Sub-Zero feednecks, etc. :D


LOL Blatant and shamless plug :-)




Like what...any suggestions?

Yes, we can talk. :-)

[Lohman446]

I've seen it suggested they cut their loses with the Warp and team up with Q-Loader on a marker.


TK once put up diagrams of a second generation warp that was marker incorporated... I wish it would have come around

[BigEvil]

TK once put up diagrams of a second generation warp that was marker incorporated... I wish it would have come around


I think they went as far as to patent it too. Something like that could be a hit with the scenario crowd.

[going_home]

I think they went as far as to patent it too. Something like that could be a hit with the scenario crowd.


http://www.turtlebackpack.com/

:tard:

[Lohman446]

http://automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=163047&highlight=volt

[hipster]

my question is with so many new style frames and boards available why is left up to us to invent ways of using them you would think that AGD, would atleast offer not just ule rails but ones that are compatable with these new elctro frame ( worr frames, e-blades ,etc)

they don't need to cater to the tourny crowd just make adaptable components

a new smaller battery would be be good they made a few prototypes just didn't finish it

I would think it would be time to come up with new valve that runs off of low preassure, seeing as adjustable tanks are slowly becoming a thing of the past and most high pressure tanks barely put out 700-800 and recharge fast enough to keep up with the e-mag and x-mag

there is room to grow with out making a whole new gun ( but whole new gun would be great)

[eadtf]

my question is with so many new style frames and boards available why is left up to us to invent ways of using them you would think that AGD, would atleast offer not just ule rails but ones that are compatable with these new elctro frame ( worr frames, e-blades ,etc)

they don't need to cater to the tourny crowd just make adaptable components

a new smaller battery would be be good they made a few prototypes just didn't finish it

I would think it would be time to come up with new valve that runs off of low preassure, seeing as adjustable tanks are slowly becoming a thing of the past and most high pressure tanks barely put out 700-800 and recharge fast enough to keep up with the e-mag and x-mag

there is room to grow with out making a whole new gun ( but whole new gun would be great)

DITTO ALL ABOVE...

I would love to see a 9 volt battery and a smaller battery housing...

[hipster]

lets not forget that all those bodies are slowly not being made any more the fact is many parts are harder and harder to find

[Muzikman]

Umm, to design a mag to work with a bolt on Electro frame would be a royal pain in the arse. AGD has always stuck to VERY tight tolorences for their guns because they have to. This is the reason so many MicroMags have had problems over the years. It's also the reason why a lot of Xmags have issues.

Now I am sure you are going to say, well, come out with a new gun, not a mag, that can use these frames. My question would be , why?

Tom built the emag with the solenoid and battery that it has for a reason. Now with the design of the ULT he could have gone with a much smaller 'noid and there for a much smaller battery. The problem is, the ULT came out after the Emag and AGD by that time was trying to avoid electros for legal and financial reasons.

[eadtf]

Umm, to design a mag to work with a bolt on Electro frame would be a royal pain in the arse. AGD has always stuck to VERY tight tolorences for their guns because they have to. This is the reason so many MicroMags have had problems over the years. It's also the reason why a lot of Xmags have issues.

Now I am sure you are going to say, well, come out with a new gun, not a mag, that can use these frames. My question would be , why?

Tom built the emag with the solenoid and battery that it has for a reason. Now with the design of the ULT he could have gone with a much smaller 'noid and there for a much smaller battery. The problem is, the ULT came out after the Emag and AGD by that time was trying to avoid electros for legal and financial reasons.


So according to you based on all of you arguing against innovation:

AGD does nothing at all to help develop the AGD line of markers because they will get sued for the trigger, solenoid, and auto software, so they should just leave well enough alone.

It's interesting how every other manufacture out there is doing all the above and not getting sued.

I suppose I would just like to see AGD on the map again and back in the stores.

[Muzikman]

So according to you based on all of you arguing against innovation:

AGD does nothing at all to help develop the AGD line of markers because they will get sued for the trigger, solenoid, and auto software, so they should just leave well enough alone.

It's interesting how every other manufacture out there is doing all the above and not getting sued.

I suppose I would just like to see AGD on the map again and back in the stores.


Where were you a couple years ago when there were very costly lawsuits flying left and right and good companies not able to take it and shutting down?

As for the ramping stuff. It's a matter of time before someone gets seriously hurt do tot he current rof and when it happens the industry will change and change fast. AGD has been involved with lawsuits in the past, they are smart people who worry more about your safety than their pocketbook. I would respect this instead of criticizing them for it.

The only way AGD will be back in it like they were in the 90's is to change the company name, build a totally new gun and sell it for under $300. I don't see that happening. AGD will always be connected with the Automag and the Automag will always be connected with the old stainless steel gund from the 90's. The only gun that was ever able to get out from the negative comments was the Autococker and that was becuase of the aftermarket folks. Mags are great stright from the mfg, cocker were not. It took a lot of aftermarket stuff to make a cocker a decent gun.

[eadtf]

Where were you a couple years ago when there were very costly lawsuits flying left and right and good companies not able to take it and shutting down?

As for the ramping stuff. It's a matter of time before someone gets seriously hurt do tot he current rof and when it happens the industry will change and change fast. AGD has been involved with lawsuits in the past, they are smart people who worry more about your safety than their pocketbook. I would respect this instead of criticizing them for it.

The only way AGD will be back in it like they were in the 90's is to change the company name, build a totally new gun and sell it for under $300. I don't see that happening. AGD will always be connected with the Automag and the Automag will always be connected with the old stainless steel gund from the 90's. The only gun that was ever able to get out from the negative comments was the Autococker and that was becuase of the aftermarket folks. Mags are great stright from the mfg, cocker were not. It took a lot of aftermarket stuff to make a cocker a decent gun.


I agree with everything you said, except I still don't think the software will lead to lawsuits. 300fps 1BPS or 300fps 30BPS, so long as people are maintaining the current safety standards nobody will get sued. Just my opinion...

[Muzikman]

30bps increases the chances of lens failure, eye injury, head injuries and other bodily harm depending on distance you are shooting at. If the industry want to play safely with these high rates of fire, they need to re-think the safety equipment.

Trust me, there will be a serious injury or death and it will be because of the high ROF.

[hipster]

half of those frames are either discontinued, of have an entire seasons wait to get

[hipster]

so most of the good bodies are no longer in production half of the custom frame are not in production/ try to buy a new dal, karta or cord , a new hyper from center flag or fro GA devil not going happen

and the reasons why the e-mag and x-mag are like they are is over the court cases are over
so now would be the time to make it way it should have been

there is no design that with time and inovation can not be improved upon
not to mention bb eyes , bodies made for them eye covers for them, not re used eblade rubber or compound crap

the mag has a lot of potential which AGD could capitalize on and do better than small in home shops and prob cheaper to

[Muzikman]

half of those frames are either discontinued, of have an entire seasons wait to get

Ever wonder why?

[StygShore]

half of those frames are either discontinued, of have an entire seasons wait to get


Really? Contact Luke, bet the wait isn't that long, and I believe he can get the Mokal/Focus frames pretty quick, and they look like a nice little frame. Not made of pot metal like the Kingman frames.

If you dont like the Mokal frames, he can make it out of many others. I will attest, they work awesome!!!


Styg


btw - where is the video for that rocking spyder frame mag?!?!?!?!?

[Nutsnyomowf]

There really hasnt been a truly new technology in paintball.

Spool valves are coming close to being a 10 year old "technology" as it is applied to paintball(spool valves have been around much longer). Spoolers arent much younger than the RT Valve. Poppet valves have been around since the mid-1900's. Yet, the Ego is one of the hottest things right now...and uses a 50+ year old technology.

The lack of technology isnt limited to AGD, every company is experiencing it. Its the reason why the industry is at a stand-still right now, and the only thing we can do is try to shave an ounce or two from the weight, or 1/2" from the height. Market it, repackage it, with a different milling design, change some dimensions and tell you its better---and the market buys it. AGD chooses not to do this.



That would be nice. Simpy put though, a paintball marker is just a piece of equipment that propels a projectile to 300 fps. How cutting edge can you really make such a simple piece of equipment.

At this point, I am surprised that the manufacturers could re-configure markers this long, and convince people they are something different enough to spend $1000 on. The Ion pretty much put a stop to that.



I agree. I am glad he made it too. It gives the consumer a choice.

As previously said, Tom doesnt want to be a part of the ramping craze. Give it time, it will only take 1 lawsuit to change this industry. And its a risk Tom isnt willing to take.




Some of those shiney new toys include RPG mags. I see some people going back to pump, some are quitting altogether, and others go for the ramping. Others are getting their shiney Rogue Mags or Tunamags :ninja:

Dont worry, in 2 years I will still have my mag too. I aint going nowhere.



Thats what aftermarket guys are for. Nothing keeping someone from buying the shiney, fresh, RPG mag with minor upgrades like ReTents, Viperblade triggers, Sub-Zero feednecks, etc. :D



Like what...any suggestions?

Rogue you make me proud. :cheers: :hail:

[jsdatjsd]

30bps increases the chances of lens failure, eye injury, head injuries and other bodily harm depending on distance you are shooting at. If the industry want to play safely with these high rates of fire, they need to re-think the safety equipment.

Trust me, there will be a serious injury or death and it will be because of the high ROF.

I can see serious injury, some twit stores his used goggles on the dashboard of his car during the winter, gets sunlight 12 hours a day, pulls them out, puts them on, starts screwing around with some friends, and decides to take a hopper full in the mask because he wants to show hes a man.

15bps later, hes on the ground with slivers of lexan in his eyes.

It will be blamed on misuse of equipment.

Death by paintball? Probably only in a situation where it would be considered assault, such as someone plinkinig a geriatric with brittle bones, and nailing the poor guy 30-40 times.

The only true danger from the faster bps, from what I can see, is mask breakage, and loss of eyesight.

Scenario players could also trip and fall on a pointy stick. That would be more dangerous....


Just my .02


Ooh, hey, and here is this little factor: supply and demand. THe demand isn;t for non-glitzy workhorses (mag), its for showy, high tolerance (sloppy machining compared to mag) paint slinging machines.

I betcha 10 to 1 that manufaturers of the ammo make 10 times more than the marker manufacturers....

[hgp3fat]

Trust me, there will be a serious injury or death and it will be because of the high ROF.

I believe statistically you are more likely to be struck by lightning, bitten by a snake, or eaten alive by a shark (that's one realistic Normandy landing scenario!) playing paintball.

[chill will]

One should never say never. Poo happens.

[Nutsnyomowf]

Poo happens.
LOL :D

[mag_lover05]

my mag shoots. all the time. it may not be THE fastest. but its accurate and would you want me on your team if my gun only worked half the time?

angels/timmys/egos etc... dont.



what the problem is?

[Troen]

The lack of technology isnt limited to AGD, every company is experiencing it. Its the reason why the industry is at a stand-still right now, and the only thing we can do is try to shave an ounce or two from the weight, or 1/2" from the height. Market it, repackage it, with a different milling design, change some dimensions and tell you its better---and the market buys it. AGD chooses not to do this.
whats a tac 1 then?
only thing new about it is the body, its a repackaged inteleframed rt valve with a front grip.
granted, thats woodsball oriented, but what about speedball? granted, you can play speedball with a normal mag, but what if you want something faster? emag? xmag? arn't they just selling off their old stock of emags on airgun.com? xmags you would have to buy used. what exactly is AGD doing right now? just sitting on their old stock, tac 1 bodys (original and warped), and parts for people here and there for their repairs? i don't think for a second the "industry" is at a stand still, new markers are coming out...and people are buying them. I'm sticking with my emag untill something better comes out, but will it?

[Lohman446]

my mag shoots. all the time. it may not be THE fastest. but its accurate and would you want me on your team if my gun only worked half the time?

angels/timmys/egos etc... dont.



what the problem is?

If you honestly beleive that most angels / timmys / Matrix / Egos only work half the time (or for that matter less than 99% of the time) you are either in denial or an idiot. I cannot tell you the last time a reasonably maintained marker went down on field from something that was not an error by the owner. Yeh I can, it was my proto blowing an o-ring because I never lube it at the end of last season.

[FiXeL]

I believe statistically you are more likely to be struck by lightning, bitten by a snake, or eaten alive by a shark (that's one realistic Normandy landing scenario!) playing paintball.

If you hit a paintball goggle system's lense over and over again on the same spot it will eventually fail. Granted, it's unlikely to happen during games, but it's a risk. If AGD decides to not bring out any markers with ramping, it's their decision. Maybe my judgement is biased since im recently got into mags, but i think they're here to stay! With a community like AO, The quality standard of the markers, and the customizability of them, they are out there to stay.

AGD can market aggressively like any other paintball company and overhype their products. Instead, they chose not to, and yes, maybe to prevent any lawsuits. I think it's not because they have to, but because they can. Marketing a product like it's something exclusive also boosts sales, when you target a certain crowd. And a good product does not need any advertising, if the customers know it's good they'll come and buy your product. Best advertising is mouth to mouth advertising. :)
The fact still remains that mags have a solid share of fans, and even tho sometimes parts like carta bodies are hard to come by it doen't change the fact that people still buy and shoot mags.

I've owned several markers since i started playing, and the only one that still gives me that "oh i love this gat so much" feeling everytime i pick it up is my xmag. Also the "turning heads" factor when i go play is kinda priceless... Don't care if you have a ego or the latest angel, i got a mag and i can keep up with you. Most AO members should know the feeling. :)

My 2 cents..

[Troen]

Its the scenario/rec version of the ULE Custom. It allows you to mount accessories to the marker previously not capable of, for a market that AGD had not previously developed anything for.

AGD didnt claim it to be a totally new marker, just a new take on an already available marker made specifically for the scenario market.
Like the gun spyder and smart parts been making, their names escape me at the moment. or is that just a repackaged ion?




Which marker is truly new? Really new? Bout the only thing I can think that is remotely and truly new is the MQValve, but thats not a new marker. Just a new valve(when Colin makes his marker available, it will be something Id consider new)

Otherwise, everything is a repackaged poppet valve, spool valve, or blow-forward.
What is new in anything consumer products?
Cars have hardly changed, idealy they're the same thing for years but they continue to be marketed as new. sure, they say add new "bells and whistles" (onstar in compairison to say, dwell adjustments) and "change the body" (on car its more drastic but on a paintball gun, how much can you actually do to it without it looking like another gun but still appealing? shave off half an inch, remill it, resell it).
Listen, i'm not trying to argue with you and come off as an ***, i have a great deal of respect for you. But as hard as it is, we must face the facts AGD as the company is pretty dead, no 'new' markers, just bodies that appeal to the woodsballers, which alot of companys are creating (spyder has the rail system i believe, iv seen them for ions as well), no new upgrades because they're not needed. i guess what im trying to get at, is what's next?

[Lohman446]

AGD chooses not to be the fad marker. That doesnt mean they are dead, it just means they arent the flavor of the month.

I'm going to expand on this point. Its a simple rule of business really. Less investment this year means you need less income.

AGD has paid for the technology they are currently producing. It was paid for by the tournament crowd. Granted there are some minor changed that take some R&D, but I doubt a lot.

It is very inexpensive for them to continue to produce this. This allows them to sell it at a better price and not be so dependent on mass sales. It is far easier (generally) to maintain your standing in a niche market than it is to maintain your standing as number one or two in the mainstream of a product. What AGD is doing now makes decent business sense.

Thats basic. Add another standard business term to it. Risk to reward ratio. TK has a lot to lose should he ever be sued. He truly beleives, judging by his previous posts, that producing a marker with the new firing modes that it seems it takes to compete in the mainstream paintball market today, poses a strong legal risk to him and his company in the event of a tragedy.

The point is, if TK is satisfied with the income and sales level of AGD why should he change things? If you are in a sustainable niche market (and CCM and PPS have both proven they exist in paintball) why fight to be something you are not?

The fact of the matter is most of our gripes about "AGD should do this" are egocentric. They are not centered around what is best for TK and AGD, they are centered around what we want.

[minimag03]

I think AGD would be better off not trying to develop the mag for awhile. I still think the market is open for a lite, good looking, low-profile hopper that is capable of high rates of fire. That's the type of equipment that anyone would buy, not just for speedball or woods ball.

[Brian Terry AGD]

if you want wood grips call smart parts field and ask for frank ,,the last time i was up there ,they had some in the case,,

[Troen]

Thats basic. Add another standard business term to it. Risk to reward ratio. TK has a lot to lose should he ever be sued. He truly beleives, judging by his previous posts, that producing a marker with the new firing modes that it seems it takes to compete in the mainstream paintball market today, poses a strong legal risk to him and his company in the event of a tragedy.
if you can find an decent example, ill apologize, but google didnt come up with anything.
my question is: What companys got "Majorly" (enough to make an impact on the bussiness) sued? Sure, i dont want to get sued, but theres companys making half-assed parts and throwing them inside of plastic covering with 600 psi in them (brass eagle) and then theres guns that shoot way faster then the legal limits, but what company has had a major lawsuit that TK was avoiding? Every company has the same risk, AGD just hasn't seemed to take it

[rx2]

I think, in part, that the whole AGD is dead is sort of backlash from the early years. When I purchased my first Mag something like 13 year ago, it was THE elite gun to have. The only other consideration was a Cocker, but only if you had time to tinker and upgrade. Over the course of the early and mid 90s, they pioneered HPA, and RT. People expected a lot out of AGD, and it is hard for them to accept that they actually ended up behind the curve, so to speak (although it might be more accurate to call them "beside" the curve). In fact, a lot of people who used to be die-hard mag fans felt a little betrayed with things like the Level 10. While not my own opinion, a lot of people I have played with who are former Mag owners, as well as a few angry forumites of old, said that, for years, they were told Mags didn't have an issue with paint. It seemed that everyone was trying to pass it off as negative spin by competitors, and any problems were simply user error. Yet, all of the sudden, they come out with this new bolt. On top of that, it had to be tuned, which was sort of the opposite of the old KISS methodology they had admired about Mags in the first place. To those people, things like this were a sign of a company that had gotten behind the times, and were scrambling to keep up: sort of an "oops" type of reaction.

This also made people suspicious, to a point, of just how much effort AGD was putting in. While the AIR and RT valves are no more dated than the rest of the technology currently being used, as has been pointed out numerous times, people seem to think that AGD might have been able to turn out something somehow better. Just like with the chopping issue, people began to suspect that AGD was either too stubborn, or too haughty to attempt something new. These people feel that AGD's valves should have been evolving right along with the other valves and systems, regardless of whether or not it is really feasible.

Another thing that leads poeple, that I have spoken with, to have little faith in AGD is the fact that what upgrades there are often put the total package price well above other markers that are already more "capapble" out of the box, especially considering the used market. To them, mags now seem an enthusiast marker - something you get as a project, or for old time's sake.

Of course, with a few exceptions, none of us are privy to AGD's finacial information, so we can only speculate. I am sure they are riding it out just fine. But, for all of the nostalgic types, for whom the mid 90s were the good old days, it can be concerning to see what has become of the once monolithic AGD.

I may not agree with all of these opinions, but, I can understand why some people get these feelings of despair.

[bigbadboz]

BigEvil thank you, you get my point... But add me to the list of dead-cold-hands gripping a my RT in one and XMAG in the other, I will never trade up.

You are right they did say they were going to put their efforts to scenario ball, but they need to freshen it up a bit.

I just hit my savings to repair the very first marker i owned and i love my spyder now it still 100% old school with a lil new to keep it goin, My second marker makes me cry every time i see it, and today i dropped a lvl 10 and ult in it and i need help tweakin. thats another thread. but point is my mag with my protema products double trigger 45 frame, ye you read it and BIG NICE FREAKIN BLACK WOOD SP GRIPS. I will be on the front line and there will be no mercy my minmag in my right and Mag in the left. Some body plz feal me in on the d mag plz. Will it spome a timmy. What MAG should i buy next. the was a great vent thanx mags rule go suck on your cocker. dont forget that moto.

[Lohman446]

if you can find an decent example, ill apologize, but google didnt come up with anything.

What you and I beleive of the risk is irrelevant, what TK beleives is what is important Read his first post in this thread


http://automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=167377&page=1

[Troen]

What you and I beleive of the risk is irrelevant, what TK beleives is what is important Read his first post in this thread


http://automags.org/forums/showthread.php
nothing came up

[Lohman446]

Ok here is an actual true case:
President of a company tells his people to cut off the tops of the empty 55 gallon arsenic drums and use them as garbage cans. Everything is fine for about 10 years and then his employees start dying. He was a corporation which normally protects the owner from personal liability in a lawsuit against the company (may paintball companies understand this very well). But in this case the courts cut through the "corporate veil" and went after the owner personally. They took everything he had and threw him in jail. This was because he knowingly violated industry standards that jeopordized the lives of his employees.

So, we all know what the industry standards are.
We also know a guy in England died after getting shot in the head.
The companies all voted on the standards and were completely aware of them.
Those same companies have now elected not to follow those guidelines.
The companies did it because of competitive pressure in other words "for the money"

Now ask yourself, if you were sitting on the jury, how would you vote?

AGD

I fixed the link :) Should have checked it

[Troen]

it makes perfect sense. you and rogue have me believing its not dead. but, are we to expect anything new out of AGD?

[hipster]

that was what im trying to say should AGD expand on what they have done " give it a new twist "
they did it with valves, they did it with the bodies, they did it with the rails I just think they could easily do it to the emag/ xmag battery and prob redo the bodies and rails ,it is time,
I also think what they did with the xvalve and level X and ace should have been just a step towards the next evolution of the mag platform, lower preasure , to conform to most tanks and smoother opperation, the end of the see/saw sear etc.

I just think the mag has room to grow its a great gun I have owned one since the mid 90's it just does not seem right that they stoped inventing and tweaking, I don't think the mag has reached that "it's perfect they way it is" point yet
if they did there would not be so many small in the back room tinker-ers doing what they do

I know there are lot of small co. and products out there , but lets face your lucky if 20 percent of the painball public actually know these peaple and companies
( deadly wind centerflag are couple of larger ones and still are relitivley unknown compared to many other co. And both those have pretty much discontinued there mag stuff)

let alone how many of the 20 percent are willing buy a gun for $200-$1000 then send a gun to someone to mod it for another $200-$400and hope it is as they expect, its not the same as buying something complete from AGD and having it backed by AGD

and please don't take that the wrong way many of you that mod and sell you stuff do make quality products

[Lohman446]

Having owned multiple E-mags and even a devilmag I am going to go out on a limb and say the RT mag was "the just right the way it is". Now Im having my RT made into a pneumag, but thats more of a I want to say I have one than really caring

[REDRT]

Thats 100% correct, but paintball has little to do with advancing technology at this point. It has to do all about marketing, and being trendy. Something AGD could not ever do.





Look at Tom, the man. A smart guy, but he never will or ever will be trendy. In fact he is more of a geek. Mags themselves could've been trendy and they were to a point. With out a great ordeal of a total revamp they could be tready again. AGD has an ok slogan already. They have these outside sources like deadywind for the coolest bodies, xmode or maybe tag for software. If they could keep the Emag all tricked out whit flashy color option under $1100 and advertise using something way more trendier than Tom maybe they would/could turn this thing around. Look at anything successful and your going to see good advertising backing it up. I really don't think the Emag is all that bad of platform even today. When you upgrade every go faster weigh less product to it it isn't too far of of anything else out there. The cost has been prohibative, but it didn't have to be. That is just me. I've sent 2k building my dream Emag and it doesn't end there! I'd say $1100 could be a possablity and be better with factory support. I'd venture to say with creative advertisement and a custom Emag under $1200 cap with every upgrade available it would not only bring on new customer base, but also would find it's way to mainstream. I believe the base Emag can be that great. All it would take is One well knowen player to have a favorable comment or two, a teen icon perhaps or maybe a gangsta rapper in some video with one. Just something catchy. An icon or gingle. I really feel it would take off like it was alway ment to. The power of advertisement could make most people do or buy anything. Very few people every really stop the think. Alot of people are too caught up with their busy lives to ever really think and are mindless robots most of the time. AGD needs to hire that someone that is going to change the whole operation around and quite possably change the paintball world around.

[Lohman446]

Look at Tom, the man. A smart guy, but he never will or ever will be trendy. In fact he is more of a geek. Mags themselves could've been trendy and they were to a point. With out a great ordeal of a total revamp they could be tready again. AGD has an ok slogan already. They have these outside sources like deadywind for the coolest bodies, xmode or maybe tag for software. If they could keep the Emag all tricked out whit flashy color option under $1100 and advertise using something way more trendier than Tom maybe they would/could turn this thing around. Look at anything successful and your going to see good advertising backing it up. I really don't think the Emag is all that bad of platform even today. When you upgrade every go faster weigh less product to it it isn't too far of of anything else out there. The cost has been prohibative, but it didn't have to be. That is just me. I've sent 2k building my dream Emag and it doesn't end there! I'd say $1100 could be a possablity and be better with factory support. I'd venture to say with creative advertisement and a custom Emag under $1200 cap with every upgrade available it would not only bring on new customer base, but also would find it's way to mainstream. I believe the base Emag can be that great. All it would take is One well knowen player to have a favorable comment or two, a teen icon perhaps or maybe a gangsta rapper in some video with one. Just something catchy. An icon or gingle. I really feel it would take off like it was alway ment to. The power of advertisement could make most people do or buy anything. Very few people every really stop the think. Alot of people are too caught up with their busy lives to ever really think and are mindless robots most of the time. AGD needs to hire that someone that is going to change the whole operation around and quite possably change the paintball world around.


Wrong.... the reason I, and many other people on these boards, do not shoot an E-mag has absolutely nothing to do with trendiness.

[iambored]

If you noticed, few has changed in any paintball company.
Everybody wants a shocker but thats only got new software and mono-tube body
Not much of an improvement
And AGD is more or less on top tech wise
Yeah they don't go makin shiny electro's and fancy new micro versions of their products but they used mono-tube bodies before SP did and have proven the test of time. Not to mention that the agd rt's are one of the few reactive non-electro markers out their. AGD also has the edge on interchangable parts, the fact is that ions can't be shockers and merlins can't be excaliburs (but aka has some awesome markers). You can turn a minimag into a rt pro.
So I'd say agd has alot of ground in the industry, but there is always gonna be room for improvement

[DoomWithAnXmag]

OK, after reading these here is my biased opinion.
Mags are old.
Sorry it's true. Not saying they dont work but they are...old. They look old they act old and they feel old. I have had a few mags including an Xmag which I loved and a ULE that was a POS out of the box right till the day I sold it. Because of the nature of the sport there are certain aspects of marker that are important, more so in air ball then woods. Weight, speed, anti chop ability, reliablility, options and yes even though some people are happy using something that looks like it was welded out of stove pipe LOOKS are important. Not saying these are all that is important but some of the things. If AGD is interested in making money and/or having a part in tournements then they need to do some things. If they just want to plod along being a low volume nich market product just keeping the doors open while slowly fading in market presence then they can keep doing what they are doing. AGD makes a good reliable product that shoots paintballs. AMC made a good reliable car that did all the things a car needs to do.... don't see those around anymore do you? The fact is most people want NEW better looking lighter faster gee wizz goodie packed stuff and if you want to sell markers and make money then that is what you build. Selling old school E-mags with reflective or no eyess, HUGE heavy batterys, Ultra high pressure operation, monster kick, noise like a V8 throwing a rod, and board/software that makes a digital watch look like Star Trek gear for $900 is not going to do it. Especially when you have markers that weigh far less, have insane options, great milling and colors, are efficent, quiet and have no kick. If AGD is not interested in competition markers and like tippman just wants to concentrate on woods ball then they are on a better path. Advanced electronics and Pretty milling is not such a big issue since for some odd reason Woods players often like to make a marker larger and heavier without adding any performance value. If this is their plan I suggest actually doing it and not just slowly drifting that way and hoping people pick up on it. Start to strongly market the Tac with options and new features. How about Different camo patterns or mil-sim stocks and body kits.
Do not get me wrong I loved my Xmag. It was a fine beautifully made marker but there are reasons I do not own it now. It was like driving a classic european sprts cars, a beautifully built, high performance machine that looks and feels good but is still 30 years out of date and that is only the Xmag. Other AGD markers do not have that markers visual appeal. Historic car value aside would you rather pay 30 grand for an old sports car or a new one that was fater, lighter, gets better milage, has AC, navi, power everything, fuel injection, etc etc?

How about this? ULE E-mag, so some nice milling nothing crazy and offer colors, use a serious trigger not that two finger 1993 thing, add a clamp, use the ULT a smaller noid and 9v battery in the grip frame, Tourney modes, break beam eyes and better board interface like on the E2 maybe lower operation pressure? The milling,neck,colors and eyes would be VERY easy and low cost. The rest would not be a huge design issue either but would take more work. AGD could build a modern competative marker with relativly minor work.

[ttink]

Well, you kinda just gotta figure it like this: Tom Kaye is obviously a very smart individual who could take AGD and make it into a pretty competitive company, but he chooses not to. They are doing fine now, so why change a good thing? Its really all up to AGD and its owners to decide what they want to do. Right now, it looks like they just kinda wanna sit back and let things happen. It's their decision, life goes on.

[Lohman446]

Well, you kinda just gotta figure it like this: Tom Kaye is obviously a very smart individual who could take AGD and make it into a pretty competitive company, but he chooses not to. They are doing fine now, so why change a good thing? Its really all up to AGD and its owners to decide what they want to do. Right now, it looks like they just kinda wanna sit back and let things happen. It's their decision, life goes on.

You get it. :cheers:

[REDRT]

Wrong.... the reason I, and many other people on these boards, do not shoot an E-mag has absolutely nothing to do with trendiness.

The reason you and many others don't shoot mags is you don't believe in them and you are caught up in the current trendy markers set forth by advertisement. The ad world creates trends if done correctly an upgraded Emag or Emag based revised marker could be trendy.


OK, after reading these here is my biased opinion.
Mags are old.
Not really. I guess other popular marker designs are spring chickens? Emags came out in 2k and the xmag after that. To me that isn't too old. The valve technology is older, but it still is what it says it is," the fastest recharging valve". Not old to me. Maybe if I was trading off markers every 6 months or so it would be consisdered old? If Agd would get off there arses and update a few simple things and market it, it would be a very competive marker with a broarder fan base. Market it well enough it could even be trendy.

[JRingold]

my mag shoots. all the time. it may not be THE fastest. but its accurate and would you want me on your team if my gun only worked half the time?

angels/timmys/egos etc... dont.

what the problem is?

QFT

I was out yesterday and every marker on the field other than my two Mags had issues. The Spyders, the Tippmanns, the Intimidators, every single one. We sat out 30 minutes at a time waiting for someone to fix something. The X-Mag and the RT-Pro shot flawlessly, without any issues.

[LinearGoose]

Well most any markers will work everyday with proper matenance and care. That being said some makers require more than others. I had a Tippmann, keeped it in top shape. Oiled it cleaned and everything after every game. Sold it to my cousin and by the 3 month it was broken becasue he never oiled it or cared to much about it. I see it alot at my friends field. The thing is a lot of people dont know where to oil there marker or how to care for them properly. The think with Mags is it says Oil and has arrows pointing where. Also it has a diagram of the on/off asemably. How easy could it? Also taking it apart is a breeze. I took apart one of my cousins Spyder and pieces where flying everywhere. So this is some reasons why I love Mags. They stick to the KISS idea and mostly dont veer away from it. MAGS ROCK :headbang: AND THERE HERE TO STAY!!!

[Lohman446]

The reason you and many others don't shoot mags is you don't believe in them and you are caught up in the current trendy markers set forth by advertisement. The ad world creates trends if done correctly an upgraded Emag or Emag based revised marker could be trendy.

Right :rolleyes: We all became hype driven idiots the moment we put down our mags :rolleyes:

[hipster]

I own many guns
shockers and ego's, a karnie, but I still shoot a e-mag
I think it shoots better, flater and straighter than any gun I own and with the xmod it is one of the fastest

I just remember when they made a smaller front Battery and were working on a more "front gas threw grip" look for it then they just stopped ????

a lot of the after market co. like deadly wind never realy advertised their products now they don't make any bodies any more

with the advent of bb eyes you would think boards , bodies, and smaller sleek looking batery designs would start rolling off to the production floor-- instead it seems like every one is turning there back on pure mag future endevors

as far a TK - he turned the co. over when it was still inventing ( and did leave it in good hands) so he could pursue his other non paint ball projects and he has quite a lot, you should check out his site and see what he is up to .

but it still leaves the fact that it would not take much jump the mag back into the fore- front of paintball, so why have they stopped???

augmententing and moding other gun components is one thing but why is AGD not keeping pace

[Troen]

The reason you and many others don't shoot mags is you don't believe in them and you are caught up in the current trendy markers set forth by advertisement. The ad world creates trends if done correctly an upgraded Emag or Emag based revised marker could be trendy.

well no, theres just room for improvement
an emag is a hybrid gun, there could be so much more improvements if agd wanted to make them, a fully electric would be absolutly sweet. sure, you can say "emag is fine" but if you had to choose between a dm6 and an emag, what would you choose? personally, id choose a dm6, and not because its trendy

[DoomWithAnXmag]

The reason you and many others don't shoot mags is you don't believe in them and you are caught up in the current trendy markers set forth by advertisement. The ad world creates trends if done correctly an upgraded Emag or Emag based revised marker could be trendy.


Not really. I guess other popular marker designs are spring chickens? Emags came out in 2k and the xmag after that. To me that isn't too old. The valve technology is older, but it still is what it says it is," the fastest recharging valve". Not old to me. Maybe if I was trading off markers every 6 months or so it would be consisdered old? If Agd would get off there arses and update a few simple things and market it, it would be a very competive marker with a broarder fan base. Market it well enough it could even be trendy.


Actually Yes really. They are. Cars 30 years ago had all the same basic systems new cars do. They had (well some) 4 valve 4-6 or 8 cyclinder engines some even with fuel injection. They had power windows, steering blah blah blah and they went the same speed as many cars today. Guess what ? Yep they are still OLD. Marker development just like most everything else is about evolution not revolution. What keeps something current is the little tweaks and upgrades that keep it in line with the current state of the art. What you all do not seem to grasp is that new milling and a couple grams here or throwing a clamp neck on there IS what makes a marker current and not out of date. Mags are in fact falling ... fallen behind modern markers. I agree that a few onces lighter or couple mm smaller or being able to shoot faster then anyone will allow may not actually make a differnce on the field with equal players but it is still the mark by which marker development is measured. If small developments did not matter we would plod along with the same products year after year and would not have smaller lighter faster cars, computers or music players.
Yes, AGD makes a good gun but in now way does a ULE custom for $600 (mine was over $600 with all the upgrades straight from AGD) compare to a modern electro in the same price range. An E-mag for $900 with no eyes no tourney modes a huge battery no clamp neck pathetic grips and a trigger that feels like you took it off a piece of farm equipment? How does that compare to say the new bargain EGO for $700 which is faster, lighter, more advanced, smaller, better looking, more efficent, more adjustable, cheaper and just as reliable? It dosen't that is the answer. I think AGD makes an GREAT product. I also think they just do not care to stay competative in the industry and no matter how many die hard AGD people there are they will at some point die out unless they start keeping up.