How many of you would be interested in...

[wjr]

I'm thinking about making a batch of pneuframes. I'm talking to a machinist now about getting the frames made. It would be everything in a pneuframe (msv-2, mpa-3, QEV, fittings, hose) just minus the low pressure regulator. I don't know the price yet because I haven't gotten an estimate on how much it will cost to make the frame.

Anyone interested? I want to get an idea of how many people are interested before I get my first protoype made.

[Cow hunter]

if its like $120 to do it definetly, ask how much it would be if we supplied our own frames

[Pneumagger]

seems like a good idea. If it's a CNC machinist, send me some sketches and drawings and I'll make a pro-e or sldwks data file for the machinist. I may be able to generate the CNC codes if I know what he requires there too. This would save you a pretty penny or two ;)

Best Idea would be to have an easily removable MPA-3 Mount block, then the piston could be remove easily for back to mech conversion. If it's a vert frame or has a bit more room, the LPR could go in too.

Just sell raw frames - like for people to just drop their own pneumatics (MPA-3 and MSV) into for like $100. Less work for you :)

[wjr]

seems like a good idea. If it's a CNC machinist, send me some sketches and drawings and I'll make a pro-e or sldwks data file for the machinist. I may be able to generate the CNC codes if I know what he requires there too. This would save you a pretty penny or two ;)

Best Idea would be to have an easily removable MPA-3 Mount block, then the piston could be remove easily for back to mech conversion. If it's a vert frame or has a bit more room, the LPR could go in too.

Just sell raw frames - like for people to just drop their own pneumatics (MPA-3 and MSV) into for like $100. Less work for you :)


I've already got autocad, so If I find that he needs the model then I'll probably whip one up. Thanks for the offer though.

I've designed the top of the frame so that the mpa-3 will fit snugly and it will be further secured by set screws. I'll also make sure that it will work as a mech frame if the mpa-3 is taken out.


I have thought about just selling the raw frames. It all depends on how much they will cost me. I doubt many people would want one if it cost them 170-200.




if its like $120 to do it definetly, ask how much it would be if we supplied our own frames


I don't think that I want to just modify the existing frames. More problems are are assoiated with that. Also this guy is just going to machine the basic frame. I myself may end up drilling and tapping all of the neccesarry holes.

[Pneumagger]

if he's got the frames being cnced (I hope) just have him bore all the sraight holes and then deal with tapping an dbreaking of edges later. Infact, do like a UMF vert hybrid that uses the Dye DMC grips, then a LPR has a better chance of being internal.

Also guys remember for a small run of parts, it will probably be $125+ per raw frame + $30 worth of pneumatics + LPR. These frame could easily be $200. That is why I would almost rather wait for the DW hAir frame to come out for the same price, then at least it warrented and manufactured by an AGD affiliate. It would also have better designed-for-this-application pneumatics.

On a Side Note:
I spoke with a clippard application engineer the other day about the MPA-3 tolerences and rated workload of the actuator. He said anything around 2 cycles/sec is the designed workload for the MPA-3 and was astounded that we successfully run these things in excess of 20 cycles/sec.

[wjr]

if he's got the frames being cnced (I hope) just have him bore all the sraight holes and then deal with tapping an dbreaking of edges later. Infact, do like a UMF vert hybrid that uses the Dye DMC grips, then a LPR has a better chance of being internal.

Also guys remember for a small run of parts, it will probably be $125+ per raw frame + $30 worth of pneumatics + LPR. These frame could easily be $200. That is why I would almost rather wait for the DW hAir frame to come out for the same price, then at least it warrented and manufactured by an AGD affiliate. It would also have better designed-for-this-application pneumatics.

On a Side Note:
I spoke with a clippard application engineer the other day about the MPA-3 tolerences and rated workload of the actuator. He said anything around 2 cycles/sec is the designed workload for the MPA-3 and was astounded that we successfully run these things in excess of 20 cycles/sec.

What's differant about dye DMC grips?

Yeah, the DW hAir trigger would definately be better, but I've heard rumors that it most likely won't come out. Thats the reason why I decided on doing this little project. That and mabye making a few bucks.

Thats very interesting about the mpa-3. Do you know if anyone has had one crap out on them yet?

[slade]

I'm thinking about making a batch of pneuframes. I'm talking to a machinist now about getting the frames made. It would be everything in a pneuframe (msv-2, mpa-3, QEV, fittings, hose) just minus the low pressure regulator. I don't know the price yet because I haven't gotten an estimate on how much it will cost to make the frame.

Anyone interested? I want to get an idea of how many people are interested before I get my first protoype made.
first of all, AO is not going to give you an accurate measurement of how many people will purchase the pneuframes.

second, theres little point in hiring a machinist. that would cost quite a bit, and not much needs to be milled out in a frame anyway. you need to mill one area, and maybe drill and tap a few holes.

third, any production run of pneumatic frames would be subjected to PTP's patent. you would need their approval.

[wjr]

first of all, AO is not going to give you an accurate measurement of how many people will purchase the pneuframes.

Why wouldn't AO give me an accurate measurement? These are for automags after all.


second, theres little point in hiring a machinist. that would cost quite a bit, and not much needs to be milled out in a frame anyway. you need to mill one area, and maybe drill and tap a few holes.

I'm not modifying peoples frames, I'm making them from scratch. So I would need a machinist.


third, any production run of pneumatic frames would be subjected to PTP's patent. you would need their approval.

I'ts not going to be a "production run". They will be "custom" made and sold by preorder like the devil mag. I'm only making as many frames as I have orders for.

And about PTP's patent; Because I am "custom" making these and I don't have a business licence, I am fairly certain that the patent doesn't apply to me. Even if the patent does apply to me, then the worst that PTP can do is ask me to stop. Also I doubt that they would bother seeing as how I don't plan on making more then fifteen or so. That is of course if I make them at all. So far this thread has had 138 views and nobody has said that they would buy one.

[Pneumagger]

well wjr...I would buy one. And I'm fiarly certain that this would qualify as a production run, as the design is set and you are making them in a larger than prototype volume to sell.

And I already know of someone on AO (as I heard from them) that got a Cease and decist letter from PTP :ninja: Simply, for gettin parts ready to make some pneuframes - just like your talking. But that AOer does do some darn nice work if you ask me ;)

[wjr]

well wjr...I would buy one. And I'm fiarly certain that this would qualify as a production run, as the design is set and you are making them in a larger than prototype volume to sell.

And I already know of someone on AO (as I heard from them) that got a Cease and decist letter from PTP :ninja: Simply, for gettin parts ready to make some pneuframes - just like your talking. But that AOer does do some darn nice work if you ask me ;)

Wow. PTP really is protective about that patent. If they ask me to stop, then Ill just sell the frame without the internals. There is probably more of a market for that anyway.

[Cow hunter]

if i get one, i want it in my Z-grip, which hasnt been done before has it?

[wjr]

I don't think its ever been done before. It should be easy. From what I've seen in pictures they have lots of room in 'em.

[TackleDummy]

Sell the frame for one price and the parts separately as a kit? If everything works it wouldn't be hard for people to get parts where they should be in a frame designed to fit them.

[Cow hunter]

I don't think its ever been done before. It should be easy. From what I've seen in pictures they have lots of room in 'em.
well i woulnt go that far, theres not really all that much room in the Z, bt thats nothing a dremel wont solve, itll take a while, but im going to try and make it happen

[slade]

Why wouldn't AO give me an accurate measurement? These are for automags after all.
historically people on AO will show interest in an idea or product, but when its brought to market no one purchases it.

also, if PTP told you to stop you would lose all the money you put into the project as of that point in time, which could be quite a bit. although, they could do quite a bit more than tell you to stop. if you did market the frame, they could sue you for damage.


And I already know of someone on AO (as I heard from them) that got a Cease and decist letter from PTP :ninja: Simply, for gettin parts ready to make some pneuframes - just like your talking. But that AOer does do some darn nice work if you ask me ;)
who was that someone? i know jay warned Alpha about it, although that story got sort of blown out of proportion.

[Chronobreak]

ptp wouldnt give me worries

however K2 is a differnt story if they somehow got wind of the project

as for who, i dont think we should be throwing names around unles that person wants to chime in themselves

btw i wouldnt be surprised if it was more than 1 person given a warning at this point
also deadlywind has a patent, although not sure if theyrs would pertain to you either, but thats another possible dead end


and finaly without final specs/pics/price i dont think your gonna get any pre-orders
also might wanna keep the total run count on the DL :ninja:

[skriptal]

I would get one, making people prepay after seeing a production model would be the best bet though, as other have stated people will say "ill buy it", then not get it. prepay.

[wjr]

ptp wouldnt give me worries

however K2 is a differnt story if they somehow got wind of the project

as for who, i dont think we should be throwing names around unles that person wants to chime in themselves

btw i wouldnt be surprised if it was more than 1 person given a warning at this point
also deadlywind has a patent, although not sure if theyrs would pertain to you either, but thats another possible dead end


and finaly without final specs/pics/price i dont think your gonna get any pre-orders
also might wanna keep the total run count on the DL :ninja:


I'm not taking preorders now. I'm just seeing if there are enough people interested to continue the project.


also, if PTP told you to stop you would lose all the money you put into the project as of that point in time, which could be quite a bit. although, they could do quite a bit more than tell you to stop. if you did market the frame, they could sue you for damage.

If PTP did ask me to stop, then I would just sell the frames without the pneumatics. I don't think the could sue me for that. As for the pneumatic parts; Ebay.

[Dirge]

OK. I'm in. Make a good looking frame.

[Lohman446]

Let me get this straight.

You are going to take prepayed orders for something and then have it built for you. You are, in this time, going to hope that K2 and others do not get wind of it and order you to cease and desist. Despite past experience with Nicad being told that before he had even attempted a production run.

I think your mention of "like the Devilmag" is overly optimistic on how this project is going to go, in terms of comparing the projects.

[Miscue]

Why wouldn't AO give me an accurate measurement? These are for automags after all.



Hahahaha... this gave me a laugh. I guess you haven't read your AO history book. :)

Tom Kaye: "Mother@#@**&$ AO *^&@#*(@gobblers! You said you'd buy it! *^&@#@!!!"

Multiply this a dozen or so times for other part making/selling folks who've also said the same thing.

We've also had stuff pre-paid... no product ever delivered. Money gone!

[wjr]

Let me get this straight.

You are going to take prepayed orders for something and then have it built for you. You are, in this time, going to hope that K2 and others do not get wind of it and order you to cease and desist. Despite past experience with Nicad being told that before he had even attempted a production run.

I think your mention of "like the Devilmag" is overly optimistic on how this project is going to go, in terms of comparing the projects.


Yes. I will be taking prepayed orders and then have them built for me. That will be after I have made one or more prototypes.

I'm not comparing the two projects. I just said that I'll be tatking preorders like GA devil did.

[wjr]

Hahahaha... this gave me a laugh. I guess you haven't read your AO history book. :)

Tom Kaye: "Mother@#@**&$ AO *^&@#*(@gobblers! You said you'd buy it! *^&@#@!!!"

Multiply this a dozen or so times for other part making/selling folks who've also said the same thing.

We've also had stuff pre-paid... no product ever delivered. Money gone!


No, I can't say that I have read my AO history book.

[RRfireblade]

Wow. PTP really is protective about that patent.

Ya think ? They have like between 10-20 thousand tied up in it. K2 now has a 'tad' bit more invested in it as well. What's your investment going to be ?


Oh , Don't forget DW has a patent too. Colin would probably be interested in a talk with you prior to retail. ;)

Oh , and if you think your going to 'have made' complete frames milled from scratch , in low quantity, purchase and assemble all the parts , and then made ready for shipping and to retail these for ~ $120 I'm going to need one of 2 things from you ASAP....

What ever your smokin'

or

The phone number of that machine shop and parts suppliers.

:D

Good luck tho. :cheers:

[Chris_automag_07]

if i were you i would do them ONE at a time...and start the next one after you ship the first one...maybe have a list but take NO money untill the next person on the list comes.....or else you might end up in a DEVIL_MAG situation.

[slade]

Oh , and if you think your going to 'have made' complete frames milled from scratch , in low quantity, purchase and assemble all the parts , and then made ready for shipping and to retail these for ~ $120 I'm going to need one of 2 things from you ASAP....

What ever your smokin'

or

The phone number of that machine shop and parts suppliers.
the machine shop is home depot's dremel section, and the parts suppliers are a barrel of scrap aluminum and JB weld.

[slade]

if i were you i would do them ONE at a time...and start the next one after you ship the first one...maybe have a list but take NO money untill the next person on the list comes.....or else you might end up in a DEVIL_MAG situation.
do you have any idea how much it would cost to have a CNC machine shop make these frames, let alone one at a time?

[Chris_automag_07]

do you have any idea how bad of an idea it is to start a project without enough money up front?
im yet to see on eof these type projects go smoothly....i was just saying. i dont really care how much it costs, most people get pissed off when they pay for something and then have to wait a year and a half for it....if they ever get it. the fact is..depending on how many people are interested, it is many man hours.....and unless he has a group of people to help him......it will probably take an eternity or it will never happen. my 2 cents....dont really care if people dont like it....if you dont...just ignore it. wont bother me a bit.

[slade]

my 2 cents....dont really care if people dont like it....if you dont...just ignore it. wont bother me a bit.
you overcharged me :(

;)

seriously though, thats the entire point. even without considering the legal aspects, the project is not very feasable. options:

fund the project himself based off interest of AOers.
drawback: he will have far fewer purchases than he expected based off of online interest, and will end up a few grand in debt with a bunch of expensive paperweights.

fund the project with preorders.
drawback1: he will most likely not get enough preorders
drawback2: even if he does, there will be complications to the project, people will complain, and it could end up as the devilmags did. probably the best option, and as you can see its not a great one.

make the frames upon receipt of an order.
drawback1: it will cost quite a bit more to make the frames one at a time than it would to make them in a production run... and a production run would be expensive.
drawback2: since it costs more, you will have even less orders.

[wjr]

Ya think ? They have like between 10-20 thousand tied up in it. K2 now has a 'tad' bit more invested in it as well. What's your investment going to be ?


Oh , Don't forget DW has a patent too. Colin would probably be interested in a talk with you prior to retail. ;)

Oh , and if you think your going to 'have made' complete frames milled from scratch , in low quantity, purchase and assemble all the parts , and then made ready for shipping and to retail these for ~ $120 I'm going to need one of 2 things from you ASAP....

What ever your smokin'

or

The phone number of that machine shop and parts suppliers.

:D

Good luck tho. :cheers:



I never said I would sell them for $120. Mabye I'd sell just the raw frames for that much, but there is now way that I could sell one with all fot the pneumatic parts fot that low.

And also like I said, I haven't gotten a quote from the machinist yet. If it's too expensive, then I'll try and find an alternative. And correct me if I'm wrong, but aluminum isn't very expensive, so the machining would be the only expensive part.

[wjr]

fund the project with preorders.
drawback1: he will most likely not get enough preorders
drawback2: even if he does, there will be complications to the project, people will complain, and it could end up as the devilmags did. probably the best option, and as you can see its not a great one.


If I take preorders, then I will only make as many frames as i have orders. It may cost me more to make only a few frames, but I should still make some profit.


Why would there be complications? Why would people complain? If I cant get the frame the way I want it, then I won't sell it. I'll take the loss.

[Slopigyo]

My school has a CNC mill that anyone who is qualified can use for free. My friend is in the class and he wil mill anything if I supply the metal and G-Code.

[slade]

And also like I said, I haven't gotten a quote from the machinist yet. If it's too expensive, then I'll try and find an alternative. And correct me if I'm wrong, but aluminum isn't very expensive, so the machining would be the only expensive part.
a piece of aluminum stock the company i work for used cost around $5000...

...then again, what they were milling was a full V8 engine from a solid piece of aluminum.

id estimate that the stock for the frame would cost $20-25.


Why would there be complications? Why would people complain? If I cant get the frame the way I want it, then I won't sell it. I'll take the loss.
forget it, go right ahead. call the machine shop and get a quote or mill a prototype. im just saying, i think its unlikely that AO will see a finished product for sale (at a reasonable price) especially without a C&D.

[luke]

but aluminum isn't very expensive

Roughly $300 for 10 frames…

[slade]

My school has a CNC mill that anyone who is qualified can use for free. My friend is in the class and he wil mill anything if I supply the metal and G-Code.
what mill/what school?

thats one step, then theres the matter of polishing and anodizing the frames, adding hardware, and all the pneumag internals.

[luke]

then theres the matter of polishing and anodizing the frames, adding hardware, and all the pneumag internals.

And the testing and tech support...

[luke]

which means you will need a supply of air....

[wjr]

I'll be doing the ano myself I think. I've already ano'd a bunch of stuff and I just got a good power source. So thats one less thing to pay for ( I'll have to buy the dye and acid, but those are relitively inexpensive).

The grip screws would be cheap, same as the trigger pins.

[slade]

I'll be doing the ano myself I think. I've already ano'd a bunch of stuff and I just got a good power source. So thats one less thing to pay for ( I'll have to buy the dye and acid, but those are relitively inexpensive).

The grip screws would be cheap, same as the trigger pins.
but you have to pay for shipping. dont neglect that, $5 here and there can add up. and, then you have the cost of grips, unless you sell the frame without grips.

[wjr]

but you have to pay for shipping. dont neglect that, $5 here and there can add up. and, then you have the cost of grips, unless you sell the frame without grips.


Thats true. Shipping does add up.

And no, I don't plan on having them come with grips.