Tippmann, BT and Ben

[BerSerK]

Hi,

I heard a lot of different things about Tippmann, Ben Tippmann and BT so I wanted to ask here if anyone knows the "real" story.

Here's what I heard. Ben Tippmann founded Tippmann and some years ago decided to leave and founded BT, now Tippmann is owned by another company and Ben is at the head of BT.

Is that right ? If not what's the real story, I searched on Google and didn't find anything to confirm which is why I have some doubts.

Thanks! ;)

[iambored]

From what I've heard, Ben is the cousin or nefu to the guy who has owned tippmann and when ben started making tippy clones and using the family name there was a trade mark issue which was later resolved

[Chronobreak]

you know what really sucks

all the fields that use tippmans are SOL, when it comes to parts
tippmann is discontinuing pretty much everything but m-98 and a-5 parts if i recall

who is tippmann owned by now anyways? also i think theyr "tippmann sports" or something goofy now

ive been really impressed with the BT products and support i have seen Thus far, i would expect MANY fields including ours to be ehading the way of BT in the future

[Lohman446]

I beleive Summit Investment Group, or something similiar, owns Tippman now

[bleachit]

ive been really impressed with the BT products and support i have seen Thus far, i would expect MANY fields including ours to be ehading the way of BT in the future


I just played at an indoor place a few weeks ago, first time in a LOOOONG time Ive played at all.

they had all BT markers for rentals.

[Al_Steel]

Try finding parts for a 68 Special, they are getting downright rare. Tippmann doesn't even work on them anymore or make parts. humph! :mad:

I used to be a die hard Tippmann fanatic, but when they stopped supporting their older stuff I stopped supporting them. They are becoming the Microsoft of paintball IMO. AGD OTOH will support markers that they have made since day one, a BIG reason why I made the switch.

[Lee]

just played at waynes world last weekend. my son used a rental BT. it worked pretty well, he enjoyed it.

[BerSerK]

found some light in tippmann.com

http://www.tippmann.com/about_us/pressReleaseDetails.aspx?id=10

[punkncat]

Try finding parts for a 68 Special, they are getting downright rare. Tippmann doesn't even work on them anymore or make parts. humph! :mad:

I used to be a die hard Tippmann fanatic, but when they stopped supporting their older stuff I stopped supporting them. They are becoming the Microsoft of paintball IMO. AGD OTOH will support markers that they have made since day one, a BIG reason why I made the switch.


Not trying to be a dick or anything, but that is rediculous. How could you honestly expect ANY company to indefinately support its product?

Try and find parts for a Dye cocker. They are less than half the age of a 68 special. Look on Dye's website for something about a DM3....even less time. The only place you can find parts for the old Matrixes is an aftermarket company, TMC. Most markers with any age on them are catered to by aftermarket companies, or niche specialists.

The 68 turned out to be a great marker and was rugged and reliable as all get out. It was replaced long ago...I am not sure but the end result being the Pro Carbine, which is not available anymore either so far as I know. It would be unrealistic to think that Tippmann (not even the same owners) would continue to support and make parts for a marker they sold almost 10 years ago and discontinued at least 5 or more. These companies are in buisiness to sell you new equipment. They don't want you buying small dollar parts to keep an old marker running when they can get you for a buck and a half on a new one every few years.

[buzzboy]

Tippmann was cool until they discontinued the Pro/Carbine. That ended a saga of awesome woodsball markers. Stupid Tippmann.

BT seems like a good company. I have seen their stuff at fields before. Looks like it holds up to rental use just fine. Though I guess that the markers really aren't that old at the fields so I can't tell. Anybody know how long a field keeps their markers before selling the lot off and replacing.

[Al_Steel]

IMO Dye isn't Tippmann. I expect more from Tippmann b/c they are the industry leader and I have dealt with their outstanding customer service on several occasions. Their leadership status can be argued, but it's a fact that they hold more marketshare than any other manufacturer AND they have been around longer than almost all others.

I'm NOT a Tippmann hater. I have owned and played almost every single paintball product Tippmann has EVER produced. It's unfortunate to witness a company I have had such respect for follow the industry rather than vice-versa. Perhaps it's the new management style or maybe they are simply adhering to best business practices. Whatever the case, the Tippmann customer service mantra of years ago may be going away. They appear to be following the industry trend of disposable products that are here today and gone tomorrow. I certainly hope this isn't the case, but the writing is on the wall.

In contrast WGP and AGD will support a product made 15 years ago. In that light is it really so "rediculous" for me to expect the industry leader to support their products?

Tippmann serves the paintball masses very well and continues to improve their products. However, as a loyal Tippmann owner I feel that I have been forgotten about and brushed aside. I'm not a big believer in the "newer is better" philosophy, I will pit my 68 Special against any modern marker in a woodsball match. I shouldn't be forced into buying a new marker just b/c it's popular or the manufacturer want's to milk me for cash. That's something I have come to expect from some other companies, but not from Tippmann.

[BigEvil]

Cant blame Tippman for still not making 68 special parts... its not like there are 100,000 68 specials still on the fields. I had two of them, most soft parts could be replaced with a little ingenuity IIRC.(or as I liked to call it "desperation")

The Dye Cocker example is a good one... the gun was crap to begin with, but they did have a pretty decent amount of aftermarket cocker parts that were sold seperately. My brother has DYE pnues on the front of his cocker, and the LPR has been acting up. Think I will be able to find parts? I told him to buy a Micro-Rock. Then I told him to buy a new gun.

Hasnt anyone thought of the day when AGD stopped supporting the classic mag valve? :cry:

[Banshee23]

Hasnt anyone thought of the day when AGD stopped supporting the classic mag valve? :cry:

But at least AGD still sells all of the parts for the classic valve so you can fix it yourself. They just don't have the star warranty anymore.

[Al_Steel]

Cant blame Tippman for still not making 68 special parts... its not like there are 100,000 68 specials still on the fields. I had two of them, most soft parts could be replaced with a little ingenuity IIRC.(or as I liked to call it "desperation")

Agreed.. I've fashioned a 68 Special part or two myself. Ok maybe I'm a little sensitive cuz the old warhorse get's no love. I've just seen Tippy dropping lots of markers lately that work great in woodsball in favor of new stuff that isn't necessarily better. Oh well, maybe I'm just a bit too sentimental. :cry: Anywho, I love my RT-Pro so no worries.

Also, just to help muddy the water on the original thread...

Tippmann started with Tippmann Industrial products which made (and still makes) industrial strength sewing machines. They also had another branch of the corporation called Tippmann Arms (Started by Dennis Tippmann Sr. I believe) that made .22 caliber half-scale machine gun replicas. In 1986 the Firearm Owners' Protection Act effectively wiped out the market for Tippman Arms' products by outlawing their products for all but law enforcement or military use. This left Tippmann Arms in a bind. So the Tippmann's took their firearms knowledge and channeled it into making the first fully automatic paintball marker, the SMG-60. Tippmann soon started making the 68 Special, Tippmann Arms changed it's name to Tippmann Pnuematics, and the rest is history.

Fairly recently (2004), due to the overwhelming popularity of Tippmann markers, Tippmann restructured to handle increased demand for their products. The company brought in an outside firm, Summit Partners, to help it handle the growth. Contrary to popular belief, Tippmann was not bought by Summit Partners, rather they formed a partnership with Summit Partners, which is an investment firm that lent capital (cash) and management experience to the Tippmann corporation. This left Dennis Tippmann Jr. as a VP in charge of product development and Sr. on the Board of Directors and as a management consultant of the newly restructured "Tippmann Sports, LLC".

From what I can gather, Ben Tippmann, nephew of Dennis Tippmann. Sr., was deeply involved with Tippmann Pneumatics and apparently did design and development work (he may have been the architect of the Model 98 but don't quote me on that). It's not clear to me if he was either dissatified with the direction the company was taking or if he was going to be left out of the management loop (first rule of acquisition: retire all family members) but one thing is obvious, he either voluntarily or involuntarily left Tippmann Pneumatics.

In 2003 Ben Tippmann took his design experience, ideas, and desire to bring new products to the sport away and founded BT Designs. BT Designs markers are geared directly towards Scenario and Woodsball players but are built on a frame that is VERY similar to the Tippmann Model 98. This created some brand confusion among the marketplace which led to Tippmann Sports filing suit in late 2005 against BT Designs citing violations of their intellectual property. This lawsuit was settled in February 2006 and while the terms of the settlement are confidential, it's obvious that BT Designs was allowed to continue production.

So you have BT Designs with their BT-4 and BT-16 line and Tippmann Sports with the Model 98 line. Even though they are similar in appearance there are subtle differences that set them apart enough to satisfy the lawyers. I wonder if Ben still gets Christmas cards from Dennis and Jr.? :D

[Jaan]

But at least AGD still sells all of the parts for the classic valve so you can fix it yourself. They just don't have the star warranty anymore.Well, not to put too fine of a point on it ... but one of the reasons I bought a 'Mag in the first place was back then they promised a "lifetime" warranty, in the pre-star days.

It may be ridiculous to *expect* a company to support it's products indefinitely, but it's not unheard of. For Tippmann they could make a whole mess of common replacement parts for the old guns every 2 years or so ... the payoff being to increase the public perception that Tippmann guns last forever, unlike their competition. That is, after all, one of the major things they have going for them. If you take away that, then they're just another flashy gun on the wall at S-Mart.

[punkncat]

In contrast WGP and AGD will support a product made 15 years ago. In that light is it really so "rediculous" for me to expect the industry leader to support their products?




Consider that AGD is still selling the same design they made 15 years ago as new product (under new ownership and supposedly on limited parts). Aftermarket parts for WGP markers, especially for mechs are slowly becoming harder to find, but are still available, so long as you want something for a 2K+ design. Both of these markers are veritable icons of the industry. The 68 was not so popular as they....

I agree with many of the points of your well worded response. I just can't see stopping support of a company that has made and continues to make good products for the low end market. Considering the direction that the industry as a whole is going companies have to work on trimming down. An unfortunate side effect of that is that product quality and support generally suffer for it, especially in the consideration of older, discontinued products.

[FromTheBack]

<img src="http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/5463/tipptriumphus9.jpg" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us" />

Yah, this is the direction tippman is going....

I don't know why a tippmann effect player (I am guessing that's an effect guy in the ad) would shoot this over the 98's they have unless it is really that much better. On the bright side this material could be composite and much lighter but really, they could of done better to not make it look like a child's toy. and so bulky.

On the left it looks to be a smaller version tourny version and on the right a rec. version.

[bleachit]

that new tippy looks familiar... I just cant seem to put my finger on it.






http://www.brasseagle.com/images/products/2030.gif

[SlartyBartFast]

I don't know why a tippmann effect player (I am guessing that's an effect guy in the ad) would shoot this over the 98's they have unless it is really that much better.
Are you really so naive as to think that sponsored teams or athletes use the best equipment? Do you really think professional athletes win because of the equipment they use?

If you really are that naive, then let me enlighten you: Professional athletes, when sponsored, use equipment and mention product because they are PAID to do so. Advertisements, as above show equipment being used BECAUSE THAT’S WHAT THE ADVERTISEMENT IS FOR.

Unless equipment is downright useless and the vendor refuses to improve the base product (how’s this for a a shocker: equipment used by athletes might LOOK the same as what you buy, but it ain’t), the athlete will even use an inferior product for the sponsorship money and due to contract obligation. Heck, their contract will probably force them to use the product regardless of how bad for a given period. So, the athlete either does the best they can with the bad product (and might still win) or they have to take a substantial penalty for dropping their responsibilities to their sponsor. Even after the sponsored period, they may be held to a non-disclosure agreement to not say anything negative about the company or its products.

[SlartyBartFast]

that new tippy looks familiar... I just cant seem to put my finger on it.
:rofl:

[Chronobreak]

are they really using them or did somone just give him one and have him slide for a pic? :D

[Al_Steel]

I agree with many of the points of your well worded response. I just can't see stopping support of a company that has made and continues to make good products for the low end market. Considering the direction that the industry as a whole is going companies have to work on trimming down. An unfortunate side effect of that is that product quality and support generally suffer for it, especially in the consideration of older, discontinued products.

Well considering Tippmann is now being run by the number crunchers and not by the players I am willing to bet that we will start seeing a lot more high volume, low dollar products (look what happened to Brass Eagle) and less high dollar, low volume products. It's all about the $$$ now. Go read Summit Partner's website (www.summitpartners.com), I don't see too many people there with the best intrests of the paintball community in mind. Venture capitalists like to see a quick return on their investment and the best way to do that is through sales volume. S-Mart style distribution is a REAL quick way to a larger bottom line. NEVER underestimate the influance a large investor can have on a company, especially if that investor has hand picked managers for the company they have invested in.

"In connection with this transaction, Howard A. Kosick has joined Tippmann as President and CEO. Mr. Kosick has held a number of senior management positions in consumer goods and sporting goods companies, including Bell Sports, Arctic Zone, and Thermos. While he was at Bell Sports, the company became the market leader in bicycle helmets and accessories during the industry’s high-growth period in the 1990s. In his most recent position as CEO of Bell Automotive Products and Bay Travelgear, Mr. Kosick served the mass merchant, sporting goods, and specialty channels—the primary distribution outlets for Tippmann."

You don't really expect Tippmann to be able to re-coup a huge investment in manufacturing upgrades by selling A-5's through internet sales and pro-shops do you? That is a drop in the bucket compared to the sales that can be realized through large brick-and-mortar retail chains. And we all know what the final deciding factor is in sales in that form of distribution is.. yup cost! Not reliability, not end-user support, not industry reputation but straight up dollars. You set a Brass Eagle next to a Tippmann on the shelf of S-Mart and they better damn well be within $20.00 of each other or there will be a lot of Tippy's on the clearance rack when it's time to rotate inventory. Most purchasers in that kind of outlet are buying with liittle to no product knowledge, on impulse, based solely on what's written on the box, what little Johnny has seen in a ad, or (horrors!) on what the sales associate suggests. What's worse is there are a LOT more of those kinds of buyers then there are of us.

To maintain the kind of margins that are necessary to remain competitive in THAT kind of marketplace you have to reduce overhead somewhere and the first place that happens is in post-sales support. I hope I'm wrong, but if that's the market Tippmann is going for fellas, pretty soon you are going to call Tippmann for customer support and you will get: Press 1 for the Triumph, Press 2 for the Model 98, etc. and if you are lucky you will get forwarded to a person that speaks English as a second language.

Lord I hope I'm wrong, but I'm sure Ben left for a good reason. :(

[Jaan]

Are you really so naive as to think that sponsored teams or athletes use the best equipment? Do you really think professional athletes win because of the equipment they use?

If you really are that naive, then let me enlighten you: Professional athletes, when sponsored, use equipment and mention product because they are PAID to do so. Advertisements, as above show equipment being used BECAUSE THAT’S WHAT THE ADVERTISEMENT IS FOR.Everyone knows that. Pot, meet kettle.

[SlartyBartFast]

Everyone knows that. Pot, meet kettle.

Well it's not so clear the poster I quoted is clear on the concept....

[FromTheBack]

Well it's not so clear the poster I quoted is clear on the concept....

I know what you are calling me out for and yes I know that teams use what they are sponsored by because they are supposed to promote it, including newer products such as the Triumph. I really was just not expecting to be attacked on AO. Excuse me next time I will edit my post with the upmost importance for clarity and consistancy.

Come on man, it's a forum, I am merely sharing my thoughts and you can be respectful. After a full day of classes I don't feel like fine combing my posts on AO because I suspect most people to be friendly in the relaxed environment. It's obvious you are just looking for a reason to engage someone negatively. You really could be more courteous.

And really to engage what I stated prior, it could be said that TE should endorse a tournament level marker instead of a lower level marker. I never ultimately stated I didn't know, I just am doubting the credibility of a gun that looks like this.

I don't know why a tippmann effect player (I am guessing that's an effect guy in the ad) would shoot this over the 98's they have unless it is really that much better.

[Lohman446]

And really to engage what I stated prior, it could be said that TE should endorse the tournament level marker and I never ultimately stated I didn't know, I just am doubting the credibility of a gun that looks like this.

Well, least its a well thought out and reasoned concern :D

[FromTheBack]

haha you just drew my attention to what I said, fixed. I need to stop rushing these posts :rolleyes:.

[paint magnet]

Hasnt anyone thought of the day when AGD stopped supporting the classic mag valve? :cry:

Well, about 15 years from that day would really suck :D

[Al_Steel]

Well, about 15 years from that day would really suck :D

:rofl: oh wait a min... smart a$$ :D

[rabidchihauhau]

Well considering Tippmann is now being run by the number crunchers and not by the players I am willing to bet that we will start seeing a lot more high volume, low dollar products (look what happened to Brass Eagle) and less high dollar, low volume products. It's all about the $$$ now. Go read Summit Partner's website (www.summitpartners.com),

there are approximately three stories that have come out of the TS/BT incident:

1. ben and family did it once they knew summit was going to buy in so that they would have a mfg channel that remained their own

2. BT had arguments with other family members and sought his own outside investors

3. outside investors approached BT to set things up when they heard what was going on

Regardless, we're here and the situation is the way it is, which is a good case in point for where the industry has been going since at least last summer.

This is a changed industry. Its third era. From 81 until about 90, paintball was a mom and pop industry with garage-based engineers and mfg operations. The afficianados ran the businesses so that they could play and have the gear they wanted to use themselves.

from 90 until 2004, it was the era of 'getting big'; the industry made a quasi-move in trying to attract outside dollars, outside distribution chains, overseas manufacturing, etc. This era was characterized by 'embracing new ideas with OLD thinking'. Many companies believed that they could drain their cash flow in order to create marketshare. Wrong. What they ended up doing was wasting a lot of money fighting over the same small niche market, when instead they should have been BUILDING the base. The result - tight dollars in a relatively small industry.

Now we've had two summers of closing stores and fields, reduced orders, etc., etc., negative spiral as the few dollars that people have are being spent to protect their ever-diminishing market shares.

I note that right now at least three paint manufacturers seem to be dumping paint onto the market; sure, they're clearing out the warehouses for fall. right. and a month from now do you think the field owners are going to have forgotten that just a few weeks ago they got the same brand of paint for half of what they're being charged now? Not. If they took advantage of the sale, do you think they're going to be reordering in a month...? and so goes the ever diminishing cycle as new orders slow down becauswe the pipeline is choked with older, albeit cheaper, product...

The NEW era in paintball will be characterized by: more companies doing things in a real business manner (which means fewer personal touches, less tolerance for industry bs, contracts that aren't 'just paper' and a new round of lawsuits focusing not on intellectual property but on 'unfair business practices').

The slowdown in sponsorship over the past two summers is a case in point. All of a sudden, companies are actually looking at their ROI in regards to sponsorship and realizing that they've been spending a whole lot for very litte. This seems like a bad thing to teams and events, buts its actually a good business move for the future of the industry. Dollars spent effectively on promotion will help grow the industry and will return more dollars to those companies, making them healthier and, it will help focus promotions on those efforts that are actually being effective.

The 'friends network' of dollar spending in the industry is going bye bye in favor of smart business moves.

Back to tippmann and summit partners. Go to their page and check out the pattern in their portfolio of companies: look at the year they invested and where that company is now...

[Al_Steel]

there are approximately three stories that have come out of the TS/BT incident:
1. ben and family did it once they knew summit was going to buy in so that they would have a mfg channel that remained their own
2. BT had arguments with other family members and sought his own outside investors
3. outside investors approached BT to set things up when they heard what was going on
...
Regardless, we're here and the situation is the way it is, which is a good case in point for where the industry has been going since at least last summer. The 'friends network' of dollar spending in the industry is going bye bye in favor of smart business moves.
...
Back to tippmann and summit partners. Go to their page and check out the pattern in their portfolio of companies: look at the year they invested and where that company is
now...

All very good points. What I see is the capitalization of our sport. It's a sport that is now beginning to come of age. It's been legitimized. It's out of the backwoods and into the general public. Along with that comes major manufacturers, corporate sponsorships, sports personalities, and televised events with large audiences. The only thing missing is a major sports complex devoted entirely to paintball and you can bet that's coming. No longer are paintball players viewed as camo wearing, gun toting, survivalist nutjobs, but legitimate athletes that are establishing an audience and a consumer base.

As a direct result key players in the industry are making stategic moves to make the most of the direction this sport is headed. It's visionary, forward thinking, and fianancially sound. I'll grant that and I never meant to imply that Tippmann isn't making a wise business decision. To the contrary I believe it's very advantageous and prevents them from becoming a victim of their own success. However, the Tippmann that the industry grew up with is gone. Will the new Tippmann be better or worse from a consumer product standpoint? Only time will tell. Will it be better for Tippmann as a company? Almost certainly.

I completely agree that smart business moves are what this industry needs to stay alive. Fields around me are closing at an alarming rate (3 have closed and another may close soon). A lot of those fields were opened b/c a son or friend played paintball, they had some land that wasn't being used for anything else and decided to open a field. It really had little more forethought than that. Those type of fields are almost doomed to fail eventually; the "if you build it they will come" philosophy rarely works in the real world. To further cement their marketplace, corporations may begin to sponsor or even franchise fields. This will further homogonize the paintball landscape (you can bet you won't see AGD or Kingman markers for sale or rent at a Tippmann sponsored field).

I like the fact that our sport as a whole is growing and gaining momentum. I don't like the fact that bubble pack, s-mart style consumers will eventually make up the larger paintball playing public. In that marketplace you eventually have 2 or 3 very large manufacturers that will dominate with made for the masses products and provide little to no customer support. There will always be a market for high-end products but those represent a very small portion of the whole. Established and new manufacturers in the middle or low end market will struggle to maintain a loyal following and attract new buyers. Innovative new companies will likewise struggle to gain marketshare or be acquired by the larger companies once they begin to show promise or present a threat ("death by acquisition", the Microsoft way). This could very well happen in the current environment and it's typical as an industry matures. Just look at consumer electronics, computers, software, etc. for good examples.

BTW: I did read Summit Partners bio and list of companies. It's a very impressive list and reads like a "Who's Who" among successful organizations. In fact, my company has managed contracts for three of the companies listed. Again, I NEVER said that it was a bad move for Tippmann, just that it signals a major shift in the industry in terms of consumer support.

[Lohman446]

Our sport is not gaining momentum, its actually loosing it. Granted its part of any growing process, but it doesnt make near the sound byte

[rabidchihauhau]

Our sport is not gaining momentum, its actually loosing it. Granted its part of any growing process, but it doesnt make near the sound byte
We are definately in a 'recession'. The way out of it is to grow the market. That means investing in promotion that reaches the world outside of the industry.

[Al_Steel]

Our sport is not gaining momentum, its actually loosing it. Granted its part of any growing process, but it doesnt make near the sound byte

I respectfully disagree. Every annual event that I have attended has seen and increase in attendance, marker and paintball equipment sales has recently outpaced the sales of equipment for several other major sports. Paintball is regarded as one of the top 3 extreme sports with nearly 10 million participants and over $4billion in annual sales in 2005, exceeding that of basketball or football equipment. Most paintball players continue to play well into their 20's and 30's however, the average age for a paintball player is 20. That is huge growth potential. Add to that the worldwide market for paintball which is just now starting to take hold. I have watched more pro-shops opening and witnessed the addition of paintball markers and equipment to almost all major sports retail outlets. How is that loosing momentum?

Granted fields may be closing but not because of poor attendance but b/c of poor management and developers buying up the land. 100 acres in Northern Va is worth a lot more developed than it is as a paintball field.

[Lohman446]

I'm not disagreeing with growth. I am disagreeing that the momentum of that growth is gaining. The gains, in terms of percentages, were far better in the last decade than they were in the last years. Growing, yes. Gaining momentum, no

[Al_Steel]

I'm not disagreeing with growth. I am disagreeing that the momentum of that growth is gaining. The gains, in terms of percentages, were far better in the last decade than they were in the last years. Growing, yes. Gaining momentum, no

If you mean to quantify momentum as the rate of change of growth then I will have to check my statement with some stats:

All I can really lay my hands on without shelling out bucks for a copy of a recent report are excerpts. So...

The Superstudy on Sports Participation conducted by American Sports Data, Inc. (which monitors sports activities) showed that from 1998-2001 there was an overall increase in paintball participation of 29.6% (5.93 to 7.68million). If we examine a 4 year period and extrapolate it out to known figures for 2005 which is 9.7million participants we get a 26.3% increase.

Alright so that's a negative rate of change (albeit a slight one. -3.3% or a 11% drop.. not quite a recession though) when we examine 2 consecutive 4 year periods. Growing yes, gaining momentum, no.

Technicality point awarded, have a beer. :cheers: :)