CO2 in a Tac One - Thoughts?

[chinstrap]

I recently decided to join the ranks of Mag owners after having been enamored with the looks of the AGD Tac One (not because of the Longbow) and impressed with the mechanics of Automags in general for some time. The problem is that I don't have HPA regularly available to me since I don't really play at fields (that, and for versatility's sake in general).

So I did some research and now have a 68 A.I.R. Valve with Level 10 bolt and a Palmer's sideline stabilizer on the way (thanks MadMarx and kicker) to replace the X-valve found in the Tac One when I eventually get one.

Have I missed anything?

I would also like to avoid doing the anti-siphon thing with a CO2 tank, since that detracts from the simplicity and versatility aspects.

Also, I wouldn't mind some opinions from people on what I should do regarding the actual marker itself. I haven't seen many reasonably priced used Tac Ones for sale and when I do, it's always by someone who wants to stick to some shady sale arrangements (ie: some random who won't do a third-party through Palmer's or whatever).

So I'm entertaining the idea of just ordering a Tac One from Tunaman and selling the X-valve. If so, about how much does a "used" X-valve with Level 10 sell for?

I appreciate any input anyone might have. Thanks.

[egb groupie]

So I'm entertaining the idea of just ordering a Tac One from Tunaman and selling the X-valve. If so, about how much does a "used" X-valve with Level 10 sell for?

I appreciate any input anyone might have. Thanks.[/QUOTE]

Low end for an xvalve would be around $180ish if you want it to move quick, high end $220-225 if you want your moneys worth. This is of course assuming you just took it out of a brand new tac one and selling it as is.

[chinstrap]

This is of course assuming you just took it out of a brand new tac one and selling it as is.

Yep, that's what I'd be doing.

Anybody else?

[Coralis]

might be cheaper to buy just parts you need .... the tac one body and rail ... just a thought

[sTaLa]

Yep, Airgun will probably credit you the Classic Body if you ask them to put the Tac One body instead... and Tunaman might to the same if you ask him.

[d4m4don3]

If I were you I'd just keep the x-valve. I have both for my RT Custome ULE. I use the air valve whenever I know I won't have access to compressed air. The x-valve's rate of fire is so much faster and if you have compressed air available make use of it.

[chinstrap]

I did originally talk to Tunaman and after all was said and done (Tac-One with Classic Valve, Level 10, air fittings, ASA, shipping and then my ordering a new Sideline Stabilizer and installing it myself) it would have run around $550.

That was a wee bit out of my price range, so I looked around here on AO and picked up some used parts (68 A.I.R. Valve with Level 10 and a Sideline Stabilizer). If I just order a full Tac-One and just sell the X-Valve for $200, it'll end up having cost $410 for the whole thing. Besides, I think it would be more fun to assemble the abomination myself than to just buy it ready-to-go.

Something else I was considering is just carrying these (http://www.actionvillage.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/DisplayProductInformation-Start;sid=D_SOjr9AN92Os_u5wyFOJrWUHTaHkj7xDCE=?Pro ductID=lD3AqArbyRcAAAELwuWSKoxP) with me when in the woods so I wouldn't have to worry about running out of air if I were to stick with the X-valve. Problem is that I already have the other stuff on the way and I'm really trying to keep the price down; it would be $650 on top of what I've already spent to do that (of course, I could always just stick the parts I ordered back on the market when they get here).

Ugh...decisions...

Rate of fire isn't really an issue either since I tend to take my time and shoot rather slowly.

I would ideally like to run HPA, it's just not very practical until I man up and get a scuba tank and fill station (has anyone ever carried one of these around on their back and just skipped the air tank?).

As for assembling it completely from parts, that would put the expenses WAY over the top as I need a double trigger (I've got big hands) and to my knowledge, the only double trigger available is the Intelliframe. Plus, I never see any used Tac One bodies or rails for sale. So for a new body and trigger frame alone, that's over $300.

[MANN]

for double triggers You can choose between
I-frame
chinerma vert frame(sp)
logic frame
y frame- my favorite
z frame
benchmark
dye
they are all double trigger frames. I am sure that I missed some

IMO you are better off just getting a scuba tank and using hpa. If you use co2 the level 10 bolt will not work in cold weather (or sometimes at high rates of fire). I used a ans phase 2 expansion chamber, and remote line with my co2, and my gun would always freeze up if we played at temps lower than 45ish. Everyone will tell you that co2 works in a classic, however I found its easier to just use hpa to get the highest performance out of agd products

You can get a scuba tank with fill adaptor for @200 new. then all you have to get is a small hpa tank, and you can keep refilling it. scuba tanks only cost @ 4 dollars to fill so it will save you money on filling your paintball hpa tank.

[Earthy]

Just a thought about the sideline stabilizer.... are you using a gas through front grip, or hooking the line from the tank to the stabilizer? If you're using a front grip you might consider getting a vertical (male) stabilizer and use it as your front grip instead. This means running 2 lins one from tank to stabe and one from asa adapter to valve. This is what I did on my mag when it had an AIR valve. I found that it lessened the front-on profile ( I didn't care for the stabe sticking off the side), and if you ever decide to sell the stabilizer there seems to be more demand for the vertical vs the sideline.

Choice is yours and the stabilizer is great either way, just thought I'd put the idea out there. :headbang:

[personman]

Try and see if Tunaman will sell you a tac one without an xvalve.. Its worth a shot :)
Your mag should shoot co2 fine with a sideline stabilizer. An anti siphon tank would be added security but if you dont want to, I'm sure it will shoot fine without it. Mags have been running off co2 for over 15 years now, I doubt yours is going to have a problem with it.

[chinstrap]

for double triggers You can choose between
I-frame
chinerma vert frame(sp)
logic frame
y frame- my favorite
z frame
benchmark
dye
they are all double trigger frames. I am sure that I missed some




Are any of these grip/trigger frames just straight trigger frames? Or are they all electronic (ie: do more than just house the sear and trigger assembly)? And can you get any of them for around $50?

I think I'm just going to stick to my original plan of running CO2 for the time being until I can put together a scuba tank and fill station. Everyone around me runs CO2, so even if I did the HPA for those cold winter days, I'd still have nobody to play with :(
I've got to convert some people first.

Earthy: I already have the Sideline on the way and for about half the cash of a male stab (which is probably an indicator of resale values for Sidelines that you mentioned).

personman: Thanks. I will check with Tuna when the mailman drops off all my pieces (I've decided I'm not going to go forward until I know exactly what I have to work with).

[MANN]

All of those are mechanical frames.
your electric frames are
emag/xmag frame
devil mag frame
spydermag frame
hyper frame

I have one of benchmark and one dye pm me for more info. (they are less than 50)
Its hard to get people to convert to hpa, but most usually jump after they see the advantages.

[chinstrap]

So I got my Tac One today and after looking it over and inspecting it, I have a question.

I noticed how the the gas-through foregrip has a hole going in, a hole going out and nothing in the middle.

Is there going to be a problem with having CO2 running around freely in there? I ran a search looking for related threads, but couldn't find a definitive answer to my question.

I originally thought it just had the line running up through it, but apparently it's a vertical ASA. That's a bonus though, since I'll be able to run it on 12-grams too.

Much obliged to anyone who can help me out.

As a side note: with the classic valve and Palmer's Sideline, the marker balances perfectly on my index knuckle and the joint where my thumb meets my hand. It pulls my hand just enough to the right so the marker is pointed straight ahead by default (I've always had a bad habit of letting it tilt inwards slightly) making for one hell of a shooting platform. I'm really looking forward to getting it up and running.

Thanks in advance.

[cyrus-the-virus]

So I got my Tac One today and after looking it over and inspecting it, I have a question.

I noticed how the the gas-through foregrip has a hole going in, a hole going out and nothing in the middle.

Is there going to be a problem with having CO2 running around freely in there? I ran a search looking for related threads, but couldn't find a definitive answer to my question.

I originally thought it just had the line running up through it, but apparently it's a vertical ASA. That's a bonus though, since I'll be able to run it on 12-grams too.

Much obliged to anyone who can help me out.

As a side note: with the classic valve and Palmer's Sideline, the marker balances perfectly on my index knuckle and the joint where my thumb meets my hand. It pulls my hand just enough to the right so the marker is pointed straight ahead by default (I've always had a bad habit of letting it tilt inwards slightly) making for one hell of a shooting platform. I'm really looking forward to getting it up and running.

Thanks in advance.

Sounds good. If you ever decide to sell that sidline give me a PM :D

Your not the only one who has to limit themselfs to CO2....

[personman]

So I got my Tac One today and after looking it over and inspecting it, I have a question.

I noticed how the the gas-through foregrip has a hole going in, a hole going out and nothing in the middle.

Is there going to be a problem with having CO2 running around freely in there? I ran a search looking for related threads, but couldn't find a definitive answer to my question.

If you're describing what I think you're describing, then the answer is no, in fact it will be good. The more room you can give the co2 to expand from a liquid to a gas before it gets to your valve, the better. Thats why remotes are so effective at keeping co2 out of your gun (and the fact that most remote setups have the tank vertical and no liquid gets out) and thats also why they designed expansion chambers. But a gas through isnt going to do a whole lot to help. It wont hurt though.

[doc_Zox]

heres my sidelined classic 68 rig:
http://premium1.uploadit.org/docZox/PB/tacmag03.jpg

[chinstrap]

If you're describing what I think you're describing, then the answer is no, in fact it will be good. The more room you can give the co2 to expand from a liquid to a gas before it gets to your valve, the better. Thats why remotes are so effective at keeping co2 out of your gun (and the fact that most remote setups have the tank vertical and no liquid gets out) and thats also why they designed expansion chambers. But a gas through isnt going to do a whole lot to help. It wont hurt though.

That's what I originally thought, but when I ran a search on it, I saw some posts that said to only use the gas-through with HPA which put a big ol' :confused: on my face.

So I figured it might be due to the inherent instability of CO2 and that the gas-through isn't designed for that kind of pressure, but then I thought:

1) Why would they do that?
2) Isn't HPA at a higher pressure than CO2?

So I came to the conclusion that some people probably just don't know what they're talking about. But I just had to double check. Thanks.

doc_Zox: That's a pretty sweet setup. How many shots do you get from a 12 gram? And how did you mount the ASA on the rail like that? Just drill holes?

cyrus-the-virus: If I ever decide to switch to just HPA, you'll be first in line for the stabilizer. I thought you already had a Mag set up for CO2, what happened?

[personman]

Yeah.. people use gas throughs with HPA simply because it is already in the form of a compressed gas, and it doesnt need to go through a phase change, so it doesnt need that extra space. I dont think it would hurt to use an expansion chamber with hpa.. and dont quote me because ive never looked in one before, but it might restrict the flow a little.

[doc_Zox]

i would get about 8-10 rapid (1 per second) before it would freeze up

adding the sideline let me get 20 at 1 per second

i have yet to crony it so that could be 20 at 200fps
but they seemed to fly pretty straight and hit pretty hard on my wheelbarrow/target

the olde rails were set up for rear ASA

[chinstrap]

So I just got the airlines and fittings on and lubed 'er up. Then I encountered a problem:

When I screwed in my CO2 tank, I got pressure and the trigger was springy. When I pulled it, however, I got nothing.

There are no leaks or anything and I tried the velocity at all sorts of different settings with the Stabilizer all the way up.

I actually did manage to get one shot out, but then it made a "pfft" noise (chuffed I suppose?) and wouldn't shoot again.

I'm hoping that I'm just really low on gas. I'm headed to get a refill on my tank right now, but in the event that low gas is not the problem, I'd really appreciate any help (have a game at 9:00am tomorrow).

Thanks in advance.

EDIT: I put a fresh CO2 tank on and no difference, so it must be something else.

EDIT 2: I started messing around with the Level 10 and I think I may have screwed the pooch; went to the next higher carrier and there was still no difference (springy, but won't fire), but now I can't adjust my velocity (the thing won't turn).

[Coralis]

Degass the gun and try adjust the velocity up and down ..... while your at it disassemble the valve back a, pull out the piston and inspect the oring replace if necessary and oil it before reassembly take a toothbrush and clean the threads of the velocity adjuster and the body where it screws in. Oil or grease the spring pack .... note the oil or grease is really only to prevent corrosion on the spring pack as it really isnt a moving part (except when you are actually adjusting the velocity. Before putting the gun back together slide the level 10 bolt up and down the power tube does it slide easily or is tough ... if its too hard then you need to oil it very good or go to the next larger carrier try again

[chinstrap]

I managed to get the velocity adjuster working again, it just required some elbow grease. The marker still won't fire though.

The bolt slides over the power tube very easily to the point where if I do not point the marker up when removing the valve and bolt, it'll stay in the gun.

I also cleaned and oiled the on/off pin and all the parts inside there, but it still won't fire, and now it's leaking down the barrel.

Is it possible that there isn't enough pressure on the on/off pin when I pull the trigger? I went down the debug chart in the 68 Classic manual and did/verified everything up to "Check for proper gap between trigger and rod/trigger and frame." I don't think there's a problem there since the trigger is all springy and whatnot and when I gas it up, it makes a clicking sound.

I read on the AGD website that certain sear assemblies aren't compatible with the older stuff. Could my on/off pin be too short? Do I need a different rail?
It's a stock Tac One, but I'm using a classic valve and level 10 instead of the X-Valve with level 10. That's it.

I'm really stumped here and it may be time for me to call AGD tech support unless someone here comes up with THE solution. I've tried everything I can think of and everything other people have thought of and I'm fresh out of ideas.

[Pneumagger]

Your sear rod may be too short. To see if this is the case, remove the grip panels. Then, with a skinny object, manually pull back the sear leg. If it fires, then you simply need to lengthen the rod.

No?

Now, this may sound odd... remove the valve and take the bolt off. Reinsert the valve without bolt.
Screw in the air tank. If the gun does not leak and shoot air out the barrel real loud... then your sear arm is too long causing the on off to never be open. Either the sear rod is too long, or the on/off pin is entirely too long.
If it does leak then replace the bolt and proceed to number 3

No?

Now remove the on/off assembly. Make sure the rounded bulbus end of the pin is facing down and the flat end is facing into the valve. Simple mistake... happens all the time.



Good Luck!

[chinstrap]

Pneumagger: Thanks. So far I've tried 2 and 3, but I apparently don't have the right size allen wrench to get the grip panels off for 1, so I need to go allen wrench shopping.

As far as 2 and 3:

I assembled the marker without the bolt and it leaked like a mother. The on/off pin is also in the right way.

I'm REALLY hoping it's just the trigger rod.

Also, I had the sticking thing with the regulator nut again, so I took it apart and shined it up real good; there was a lot of dirt in there. I couldn't get the regulator piston out to thoroughly clean it though. I'm guessing I have to remove the Z-nut first, but I can't figure out how to do it.

Should it just pop out? Or is there some kind of trick to removing it?

[egb groupie]

Pneumagger: Thanks. So far I've tried 2 and 3, but I apparently don't have the right size allen wrench to get the grip panels off for 1, so I need to go allen wrench shopping.

As far as 2 and 3:

I assembled the marker without the bolt and it leaked like a mother. The on/off pin is also in the right way.

I'm REALLY hoping it's just the trigger rod.

Also, I had the sticking thing with the regulator nut again, so I took it apart and shined it up real good; there was a lot of dirt in there. I couldn't get the regulator piston out to thoroughly clean it though. I'm guessing I have to remove the Z-nut first, but I can't figure out how to do it.

Should it just pop out? Or is there some kind of trick to removing it?
You don't need to take the z-lock pin out to get to any of the internals. It is there just to lock the valve into the rail. You also never mentioned what you are using for an ASA/airline hose combination. Are you using an on/off or a screw in? SS braided line or macroline? You could be having air issues as well.

[chinstrap]

Should the regulator piston just slide out then? If it should, then I think there might be a problem in that area. If not, then how do I get it out?

My ASA is some random old ghetto screw-in at the moment. I think it came off of an old ghetto Pirhanna (it was just something to mess around with until I got everything working). The hoses are macroline.

There's also the possibility that the Stabilizer might be causing the problem, I have it cranked all the way up, so I doubt it, but I could always be wrong.

[egb groupie]

I've never actually taken a valve completely apart (haven't owned a Mag long enough to need to) but I remember reading somewhere that the reg piston needs to be pushed out from behind(like the back of the valve) with a toothpick or something similar in size. I would definitely try and run a line straight from the ASA to the valve and see if airflow is your problem. If it works fine after that, then you know it's your stabilzer that's the problem. Also, I would not recommend running CO2 through macroline if that is what you are doing, over time liquid CO2 could weaken it and you eventually will have a blowout. Much safer to use SS braided hose when using CO2.

[chinstrap]

So I took the whole thing apart again. I pushed out the regulator piston and shined it up while looking for any kind of dirt/blockage, but nothing.

Then, I decided to remove the stabilizer and check for any kind of blockage in that region and I found a little piece of fuzz in the regulator valve spring. I removed it and figured I'd check everywhere else in case the fuzz had decided to seperate. I couldn't find anything, so I just plugged all the outside holes and blew into the back of the valve, hoping to dislodge anything that might be stuck in there.

Interesting thing I discovered when removing the on/off assembly is that my on/off O-ring is completely shot. As in crumbling and disintegrating. For kicks, I decided to gas up the marker and the springiness in the trigger is completely gone. The trigger is completely limp.

Is it possible that this may have caused the problem in the first place?
Would a deteriorating on/off O-ring have begun to prevent the marker from firing, but left the trigger springy, then graduated to leaving the trigger completely limp?

[Tool-of-death]

So I took the whole thing apart again. I pushed out the regulator piston and shined it up while looking for any kind of dirt/blockage, but nothing.

Then, I decided to remove the stabilizer and check for any kind of blockage in that region and I found a little piece of fuzz in the regulator valve spring. I removed it and figured I'd check everywhere else in case the fuzz had decided to seperate. I couldn't find anything, so I just plugged all the outside holes and blew into the back of the valve, hoping to dislodge anything that might be stuck in there.

Interesting thing I discovered when removing the on/off assembly is that my on/off O-ring is completely shot. As in crumbling and disintegrating. For kicks, I decided to gas up the marker and the springiness in the trigger is completely gone. The trigger is completely limp.

Is it possible that this may have caused the problem in the first place?
Would a deteriorating on/off O-ring have begun to prevent the marker from firing, but left the trigger springy, then graduated to leaving the trigger completely limp?

What does the Oring look like?

Also I you want to do step one in pneumagers guid just take the trigger frame off. the sear can be used like that.

Try gasing it up WITHOUT the palmer stabalizer, see what happens

[chinstrap]

What does the Oring look like?

Do you mean "which one is it?" or "what does it look like now that it's all mangled?"

In the case of the first one, it's the little O-ring that sits inside the big one at the top of the on/off assembly. It's the hard plastic-ish one.

In the case of the second one, it's kind of a star shape on the inside as opposed to circular. It definitely will not form a seal with the on/off pin now.


Try gasing it up WITHOUT the palmer stabalizer, see what happens

I was going to do that, but I haven't been able to get to the shop for the right length macroline and another elbow. I should be able to do it tomorrow, but now I need to wait until I get a parts kit for the replacement O-ring.

Looks like this project's on hold for a bit.

[Tool-of-death]

Do you mean "which one is it?" or "what does it look like now that it's all mangled?"

In the case of the first one, it's the little O-ring that sits inside the big one at the top of the on/off assembly. It's the hard plastic-ish one.

In the case of the second one, it's kind of a star shape on the inside as opposed to circular. It definitely will not form a seal with the on/off pin now.



I was going to do that, but I haven't been able to get to the shop for the right length macroline and another elbow. I should be able to do it tomorrow, but now I need to wait until I get a parts kit for the replacement O-ring.

Looks like this project's on hold for a bit.

Well good luck, However that o-rind should not be the problum. I forgot to put mine in and it shot full auto.

jest to let you know.

[chinstrap]

Well good luck, However that o-rind should not be the problum. I forgot to put mine in and it shot full auto.

jest to let you know.

Damn. I was hoping I had gotten lucky.

Well I guess I can try running the gas straight to the valve without having to wait for the parts kit then.

I'm really hoping I can just nail this problem and fix it or get it fixed.

That one shot I got off in the beginning keeps throwing doubt on the trigger rod problem possibility though.