Why paintball will never be a "real" sport [Archive]

Lohman446

09-09-2006, 02:25 PM

Paintball is no longer about who can shoot paint at the opponent and get it to break.

Its about who can cheat the best, who can whine the best off field, who can intimidate the refs into getting there way. Don't beleive me? Watch a top level game once, either at your local field or on television.

Players are less concerned about what they can do field, and more concerned about how they look. Again, want proof?

In every major sport the highest divisions support the lowest - MLB supports the farm system, supports some little leagues. NBA supports the WNBA. Even the NFL makes room for college, and players show up at college games. In paintball, the lowest divisions support the highest.

Want the rant to continue?

Carbon Blue

09-09-2006, 02:54 PM

continue :cheers:

RoadDawg

09-09-2006, 02:56 PM

and you are just finding this out now? :D

mobsterboy

09-09-2006, 03:03 PM

continue :cheers:

motion seconded. the bill for Lohman's rant to continue has been passed. You may approach the well Lohman, that is your right.

thefool

09-09-2006, 03:12 PM

motion seconded. the bill for Lohman's rant to continue has been passed. You may approach the well Lohman, that is your right.
and thirded :P

Lohman446

09-09-2006, 03:24 PM

Its a continuation of my rant on PBN, a continuation of my why I reconsider even playing paintball every week.

Face it. I go to a tournament and play anything but the lowest bracket. I'm forbidden playing the lowest bracket because I have played higher brackets. I can choose to play cleanly - to not cheat, to play the game as it is meant to be. Ball breaks on you, you leave the game. I can choose to put a team together that all plays by these rules. And I can get destroyed. There is no way for refs on field, regardless of how good or how many, to see everything. Or I can attempt to hide things from the refs, to openly attempt to intimidate them (and yes, it works), to make demands on the refs from the dead box, the sidelines, wherever. To do everything I can to make certain they do not notice hits on me, and to make certain that everyone around me realizes the other team is cheating just as badly as I am. To do everything I can, regardless of if its allowed in the rules, to put me at an advantage and the others at a disadvantage. What's worse... its invaded recball. It happens on rec days where there is nothing but pride on the line. Oh, BTW, at tournament. That last game my opponent plays, the outcome may very well be set in advance by some political discussion.

I can still remember calling paintchecks in the woods, and having the nearest player walk over and check me. I can remember when that got to affect the game too much and "dead" players would assist. I can remember when there would be refs here and there to solely perform those requested paintchecks that I could not readily see. I can remember the same procedure, nearly, in speedball. Now its "the refs job to call me out" and its not my fault I cheated, its the refs for not being omnipresent and omnipetent (sp). Its not even what the rules say, and yet its what nearly everyone (including major tournament series) complies with. I find one exception, and thats OGD - I don't want to go down to playing once a year.... I don't want to quit the game because I'm sick of the politics of playing and being competetive. I have no desire to go on the field as simply a notch for the other teams. I'm sick of "what it takes" to not be.

RoadDawg

09-09-2006, 03:29 PM

Ok... don't get me wrong as I have seen this as well. What can we do to "fix" this problem. We can talk the talk but can we fix the problem.

mag_lover05

09-09-2006, 03:29 PM

heres your soapbox, tell us what you stand for.

i agree, the higher divisions need to support the lower ones, not just think they're badasses

Lohman446

09-09-2006, 03:37 PM

"oh, but when you have that much money on the line"

:rolleyes: Paintball is not expensive. $1300 is not worth cheating over. $10,000 is not worth cheating over. We need to get rid of the attitude that the money makes it ok.

I'm sorry because this is going to exclude a lot of great people. Age restrictions... adults contribute to the problem, but not as much as that annoying twelve year old child trying to impress everyone by acting like the whiney teenagers (and adults) on the field. 18 would not hurt my feelings much. The funny thing is, one of the players I respect most, is under that age. Sorry

$100 a case paint. Here's why... People who can afford to drop that much money will get over the justification of cheating. It will also help get rid of a few more of those that cheat. It will shrink the market back into a "gentlemen's" market and give enough of a profit margin that fields can quit caring about having huge numbers of players and keep quality players.

Never going to happen.... and both series suck in taking the innocent out.

My option... play less, maybe more scenario. I know people cheat, but well... nothings on the line, and there are enough people that don't cheat. If the person I shoot at walks off or not is meaningless to the outcome...

zorrotmm

09-09-2006, 03:43 PM

Ok... don't get me wrong as I have seen this as well. What can we do to "fix" this problem. We can talk the talk but can we fix the problem.

It's pretty obvious that the major leagues have sold out. The only way competetive paintball will have renewed respect is through a better game format. And a different national level league. But, if that ever happens it's going to be awhile.

CKY_Alliance

09-09-2006, 05:00 PM

REDRT

09-09-2006, 05:02 PM

Hell must have froze over. I can agree with Lohman446 so far on this one.

dahoeb

09-09-2006, 05:22 PM

Hell must have froze over. I can agree with Lohman446 so far on this one.
word.

Heres an idea....play the game, have fun, and dont worry about the BS...if people wanna worry about how they look then let them.,..if they wanna cheat dont play them or just shoot the **** out of em...**** the politics of it all just have fun.

why would anyone wanna play with a bunch of cheating clowns with egos? paintball is played because its fun; when people ignore the rules the game becomes pointless and only frustrating. a waste of money.
either way, don't you think that the "deal with it" attitude only promotes the problem?

st6212

09-09-2006, 05:33 PM

Just come to Australia and play with us and leave your troubles behind :cheers:

wimag

09-09-2006, 05:50 PM

[QUOTE=Lohman446
My option... play less, maybe more scenario. I know people cheat, but well... nothings on the line, and there are enough people that don't cheat. If the person I shoot at walks off or not is meaningless to the outcome...[/QUOTE]

yeah you really should do that, or quit all together. you get too worked up over crap like this.
I started playing 15 years ago for fun, I still play for fun be it scenario, rec or tournies. Yeah tournies can be tense at times but if it consumed as much negative energy as it appears it does to you then you should back off a little and play it for the reason you first started... cause it was fun. You seem to have lost that along the way.

thefool

09-09-2006, 06:07 PM

Just come to Australia and play with us and leave your troubles behind :cheers:
If that happened australia would be the home of aberiginese, paintball players, and criminals :P

Lohman446

09-09-2006, 06:12 PM

I started playing 15 years ago for fun, I still play for fun be it scenario, rec or tournies. Yeah tournies can be tense at times but if it consumed as much negative energy as it appears it does to you then you should back off a little and play it for the reason you first started... cause it was fun. You seem to have lost that along the way.

I have quit, verbally at least several times in the last few weeks. The problem is this... I remember how fun it used to be, how much I used to love the game. I remember getting to the field four hours early to help get things ready. I remember when it was better...

Which makes quitting, that much harder

wimag

09-09-2006, 06:20 PM

Cow hunter

09-09-2006, 06:35 PM

i eveery once and a while play tournaments, and there is cheating, i dont, but there is cheating, and when people get away with it, most of the time, they win. hell just last weekend there was a mock tournament for sponsored teams at a field, i reffed, and there were players who cheated right in front of me, i saw the ball hit him on the outside of the arm, it was barely noticable, and he tried to wipe it on a bunker by switching sides, i called him on it, but not for playing on, because i really dont care.... but my point is, i dont care if others cheat, as long as i play a fair game and have a good time, ill still go play, because thats what its about

iambored

09-09-2006, 07:02 PM

"I'm sorry because this is going to exclude a lot of great people. Age restrictions... adults contribute to the problem, but not as much as that annoying twelve year old child trying to impress everyone by acting like the whiney teenagers (and adults) on the field. 18 would not hurt my feelings much. The funny thing is, one of the players I respect most, is under that age. Sorry"

What? Teens that admit when there out and not whine can't take like a test or somethin'
I've seen plenty of kids that don't cheat but its the ones who think playing like a pro is what wins the game need to be taught somethin

50 cal

09-09-2006, 08:52 PM

Heres an idea....play the game, have fun, and dont worry about the BS...if people wanna worry about how they look then let them.,..if they wanna cheat dont play them or just shoot the **** out of em...**** the politics of it all just have fun

Nice idea. Too bad it won't see the light of day. P-ball will never be seen as a "professional" sport. Having reffed a lot of games on the National level, you can see tourny directors overturn a refs call because a team captain is an expert whiner or threaten to never come back. Seen it first hand. I've walked from tourneys for the same reason.

Seen thrown guns, just plain childish behaviour on the sidelines. 15 and 16 year olds cussing like sailors in front of other people.

I stopped playing tourney ball and reffing because of the childish behaviour of players and tourney directors alike.

quasimorte

09-09-2006, 10:57 PM

From what i have seen of tournament and upper level play i agree with all of what you guys are saying. the solution is what i am thankful to have at my home field. it is a stacked structure and started with te fiels owner. where i play the guy wants to make money but he isn't doing it by letting every agg kiddie ramp till the day is done. he does it by creating an environment where even the rookies have a fighting chance. from there his reffs are all volunteers, if they screw up they don't ref again and may not be let back on the field at all. but they also know that what ever call they make the owner will back them even if they are wrong. finally there are the regulars, i don't reff but when i am sitting out a game but if anybody tried to intimidate the field reffs they know there are almost always three or four regulars that will back them on any call on the field and physically if needed. though i have never seen this happen. finnally there is everybody else that comes to the field. the regulars are good enough that unless you can really rock you aren't going to own a field very easily and alot of the time that is all the upper level players are looking or in a day of rec ball.

so how does all this fix the industry? it can't because almost every field owner, tounament sponsor, advertiser, and everybody else putting money into the sport wants more money out of it. the easiest way to do this is hype and fast fire. get the pros shooting 20 BPS and everyone else will want to, then hype your reskinned marker as if it were entirely new, and finnally make it so even when your hit your not hit so you still get to shoot.

My advice to anybody fed up with the sport is simple, avoid the new, get back to roots. if this means you sell all your stuff and go buy a pump ok do it, but if this just means you turn off ramping, kill you eyes, put your camoes back on and hide in the woods for a few games do that. get away from you normal fields and go to one that you have never been to before, be a noob some where or some how for just a little while and i can tell you without a doubt you will realise why you started playing the sport in the first place.

anyway thats my rant. i'll shut up now :)

REDRT

09-10-2006, 09:46 AM

I just think if a player was held accountable for his/her actions by sponcers, refs, field owners, team captains ect. Things could be way better. Most all of us know right from wrong. What the rules are and what is cheating per them rules. The day when a player no matter what level is held accountable then in short order positive change would be on the way.

MicroMiniMe

09-10-2006, 10:06 AM

with that said you should drive up towards Milwaukee in a few weeks and go to Paitball Sams big game. That game alone would bring you back into why the game is fun.
Pretty much walk around for hours blasting people
Seconded. You'll find more seasoned rec players and some old school guys here on AO playing. It's a mag field of old and still is. September 30 and October 1 this year.

-=squid#2=-

09-10-2006, 10:31 AM

So apparently Lohman is still an idiot.

WenULiVeUdiE

09-10-2006, 10:41 AM

I have quit, verbally at least several times in the last few weeks. The problem is this... I remember how fun it used to be, how much I used to love the game. I remember getting to the field four hours early to help get things ready. I remember when it was better...

Which makes quitting, that much harder

Lohman, maybe you just need to try a new field. Get away from all the regulars and meet new people. Take pride in helping out newer players, etc. That is, of course, if you only played at one field and such.

Even I feel the same way and I have only been playing for 5 years. I remember back when wiping was not even a consideration. I had never seen any evidence of it. One of the better ways to get away from it is to lay off the forums, get a new hobby as your primary one. Then, occasionally you go play paintball and it feels alittle better than before.

iambored

09-10-2006, 10:43 AM

Go to a military base field (that way you are selective and have less brats) :D

AzrealDarkmoonZ

09-10-2006, 11:05 AM

Play with a different group. I generally play only when there is a high percentage of friends/people I know playing. And lots of fun ensues!

Az

dahoeb

09-10-2006, 02:18 PM

Go to a military base field (that way you are selective and have less brats) :D
not true everywhere!
the one on my base has more civilians than service members! the cheating is so bad, i haven't played there in months!

hitech

09-11-2006, 12:03 PM

Now its "the refs job to call me out"

Just so you don't think it's somthing "new", that was the first thing I discovered when playing my first tournament, in 1988...

It was actually getting a little better for a breif period. When I was reffing I saw improvements. When I stopped reffing it all went to hell.... :rofl:

evildead420

09-11-2006, 12:08 PM

I think its time to kill speedball and get back to the basics.... the woods.

too much BS going on in speedball, really not much honor either. IMO

PumpPlayer

09-11-2006, 12:37 PM

I drive six hours each way to go to a good field.
I love playing paintball there.
I can't stand to play more than once or twice a year at the 'local' fields.

I'm with the people that say you need a new field.
The commute might suck but man, it's worth it.

tippett

09-11-2006, 12:37 PM

I think its time to kill speedball and get back to the basics.... the woods.

too much BS going on in speedball, really not much honor either. IMO

Players cheat in the woods also. I just got back from a large woodsball game and cheating was rampant. What I don't understand is why people cheat in game when the outcome determines no prizes or personal glory in anyway. I am not say people should cheat when prizes are involved because that bugs me too. I guess there just isn't any honor in sports anymore everyone is trying to gain an advantage over the other guy.

If we really wanted to curb cheating officals should just kick cheaters out of the tourney possibly out of the league make harsher punishments for those caught cheating rather than just a 3 for 1. Make punishments carry over for the next game make teams overcome their mistakes so they don't cheat again.

The answer isn't to kill a part of paintball (speedball) the answer is remove cheaters. If only we could figure out how.

I ask myself before every game whether or not I wanna continue to play then I remember why I play my friends no matter how bad a day I have on the field the people I play with continue to make the day worth while. Really everything is about relationships if my friends weren't involved neither would I and that would be just ine by me.

evildead420

09-11-2006, 02:40 PM

Players cheat in the woods also. I just got back from a large woodsball game and cheating was rampant. What I don't understand is why people cheat in game when the outcome determines no prizes or personal glory in anyway. I am not say people should cheat when prizes are involved because that bugs me too. I guess there just isn't any honor in sports anymore everyone is trying to gain an advantage over the other guy.

If we really wanted to curb cheating officals should just kick cheaters out of the tourney possibly out of the league make harsher punishments for those caught cheating rather than just a 3 for 1. Make punishments carry over for the next game make teams overcome their mistakes so they don't cheat again.

The answer isn't to kill a part of paintball (speedball) the answer is remove cheaters. If only we could figure out how.

I ask myself before every game whether or not I wanna continue to play then I remember why I play my friends no matter how bad a day I have on the field the people I play with continue to make the day worth while. Really everything is about relationships if my friends weren't involved neither would I and that would be just ine by me.

Totally agree with you there. Whats the point of playing if your going to cheat you know.... Its about sportsmanship, honor and pride but Ego get in the way for kids these days, its about looks to them really. try to shoot as much as you can and get away with wiping and such. Not even the right code of honor and is it just complete nonsence. That "cheater" shouldnt be playing this sport.

In real life, You can't cheat Real Warfare.

tippett

09-11-2006, 06:53 PM

In real life, You can't cheat Real Warfare.

I agree with you I must say though I am getting tired of paintball and war references maybe the game devloped as a war sim game it has however evolved into what we see now players cheating to win a game.

Nobody will ever be able to stop the cheating all we can hope for is sponsors and officals of such events will help raise the standards of expectations of players who attend these events. Either that or everyone start wearing sensor suits that records hits rather than breaks and count hits. This might be something for people looking for the next inovation in our sport.

kruger

09-11-2006, 07:51 PM

I own a field in Rome, GA. 43 acres. We dont have a speedball field. We are scenario ball only. The closest thing to speedball we have is a hyperball field and we use that in the games that we run. We dont cater to the speedballers just because of the reasons that you guys dont like speedball that much anymore. I have notice something at my field. Its the younger players that do a majority of the cheating. The older players know that the game is played, just for the sake of playing it. The younger players havent gotten that point yet. And, in reality, at my field, we dont play paintball, we play Honor ball. You guys are correct, it is so easy to cheat in the woods, not enough refs to cover all the areas. But, we, at my field, and on my scenario team, play hororably. I dont need anybody to tell me that I made a good move, or a bad on for that matter. You think that I dont know when I do it right? Of course I do. Do you also think that I know when I screw up? Sure do, just look at the paint all over me. The point is this: at the end of the day, I know if I have played well, even if I didnt get anybody out, or made any great moves. And it does not matter who I impress, or who I dont, because, at the end of the day, I know that I played like I want the other guy to play. Fairly. I really dont play against anybody else, I play against myself, because thats the only person that I have to impress. If I catch a player cheating, he is out of the game right then. It usually is one of the younger players, not much experience with the game. If it is an older player, one with a lot of experience, then I watch him a little closer. If he makes a habit of cheating, then I ask him to leave and not come back. One cheater can ruin the whole day for everybody else, so, not only is it an honor thing, but also a business thing. People come to my field to have fun, and they also know that we dont cotton to cheaters. Thats why they keep coming back to my field.

RoadDawg

09-11-2006, 09:24 PM

It's pretty obvious that the major leagues have sold out. The only way competetive paintball will have renewed respect is through a better game format. And a different national level league. But, if that ever happens it's going to be awhile.

I disagree. Starting a new league will change nothing but dwindle the playing force down. It has to start with the players having a reason to change. Harsher rules, steeper penalties, fines, etc should all be looked at and within the current system and should carry over to the other leagues (NPPL/PSP etc). If a promoter changes a call then maybe an outside ref source is needed. One that has final authority and not the promoter. If teams want to leave, let them. If they think they have all the pull, of course they are going to walk all over league. If sponsors want to leave, let them. To me if a sponsor tries to change a call or way a tournament is played then they are not better then the players who cheat and should be exposed as such. Accountability is what I'm speaking of. Make the players and sponsors responsible. Don't let them walk all over the organization that is letting them play as the organization doesn't need to "allow" them in, in the first place.

kruger

09-11-2006, 09:59 PM

What is really going to make a difference in the Pros is only one thing. And that is a change of attitude. Right now, their only goal is to win at any cost. The sponsors dont care, they are selling everything that they can make. And, if a player is caught cheating, and makes paintball headlines, the sponsors win again. Free publicity. As long as the sponsors are paintball companies, then the cheating will go on. What needs to happen is sponsorship from completly unrelated companies. Get Ford or Chevy involved with some real money, and the cheating stops. Chevy is not going to have their name associated with anything neagative by a bunch of
kids that have to cheat to win. And to get the real sponsors, they have to change the way that they play, ie. with honor. Then, maybe the "outside" sponsorship will come. The Pros are really nuthing but company owned players, totally dependant on their owners. They either win, or they lose their support. Thats the way that I see it.