Firearm enthusiasts

[punkncat]

I have been out of handguns for some time. Now that my children are getting older I am thnking about getting a new one.
A good friend of mine has an HK USP .45 that he is looking to sell to finance a tactical that he would rather have, and can now legally own with the silencer. I have large hands so the size of the frame isn't an issue. I see them online new around $800 and he is wanting to sell me his which is like new for right at $600.

Do you think thats a good deal? Are there other things I should look at?

I have always liked Baretta, but hear that their quality is not what it was. I haven't found anything low end in the Smith or Ruger line that I really like. I am not absolutely crazy about the composite bottom on the USP, but know that HK are nice weapons.
I don't want anything under a .40 and prefer a .45 I had a 9mm before and was disappointed in it.

[Recon by Fire]

Guns are bad, they kill people. Citizens should not be allowed to own guns, pnly the police and military, even then they should just have radios and boques of flowers instead of guns. :rolleyes:


If the USP is in like new condition, then $600 sounds pretty fair. It would cost you at least that much for any good pistol anyway.

[behemoth]

as long as i gotta baretta, i'm down for whateva.

[Lohman446]

In the "high end" guns I have not found the HK to live up to its place there. I think there are better guns in that range. I'm personally a fan of the Kimber Ultra Carry I have, its very nice compared to even my Sig Sauer P239 which I really really like. That being said, if you like the gun HK did not become a household name by producing junk.

[VFX_Fenix]

I'd say go for it. The USP in my limited experience with it is a great pistol, the person who owned the USP I got to mess around with was extremely happy with it. Personally it'd be a toss up between that USP and my Sig 228.

If you like the .45, you might want to look at a Sig P220, another extremely smooth shootin' .45.

[Army]

and he is wanting to sell me his which is like new for right at $600.

Do you think thats a good deal? Are there other things I should look at?


Do it. Great deal. Nothing wrong with a USP.


BTW...it's Beretta

[Maksimus54]

I'd give a Springfield Armory xd45 a chance. The grips are probably big enough, it can pack 13 or 14 rounds of .45, and it is very reliable on par with glocks.

[bornl33t]

I suppose it would depend on what you are going to use it for. After getting 2 .40s I really wished I had a .22 or a 9mm to plink around with. Ammo isn't free and you'd be surprised how much you go through in an hour at the range. The usp is good gun, but for that price you have alot of very nice options. Maybe a trip to the local sportsmans is in order, so you can pick up a few different ones and get an idea what feels good and what not? IMHO

[edweird]

HK has been falling out of public favor for some unknown to me reason for a while... I still have not had any issues with the ones my friends own and think they make a quality product.

that being said 600 is fair market price on a used USP and I think your not robbing your self on it.

as for alternatives I suggest both SA's XD line and 1911's... I used to hold Kimber on high but CS issues have plagued a few guys up at my gun club, but as for my kimber 1911 ive had nothing worth calling the factory about in the 6 years ive owned it.

[hipster]

I do not the USP ( its a size and balance thing ) but if you fing it comfortable its a good deal

for guns of that size the sw99 by S&W and the sig are much smoother shooting

I still prefer the glock for an all around all purpose gun.

[Steelrat]

I like the USPs, but I like the H&K P2000s even more, as they are like an evolved USP. I am also a large sig fan, owning three myself, though I have noticed a VERY disturbing tendency on my .40 sig to shove the bullets into the case after they have been rechambered several times.

I can not, and will not, recommend a Beretta, having had to live with the them for over 5 years.

$600 aint a bad price, but make sure it has night sights on it.

[SCpoloRicker]

I'm very happy with my full size USP. I looked at Sig 228s as well, and ended up going with HK.

[starchief1959]

That is a good asking price for a used (in excellent condition) USP.

I would however reccommend a 1911 for the .45 cal.

[mr. right-wing]

Get a Sig p220. HKs are good guns, but I know a helluvalotta shooters, and theyve had more problems with their USPs then they have with their Sigs. Personal experience was my Dad carried a P226 for 22 years as a LEO and never had one jam after about 30k rounds. The USPs didnt hold up as well. My p220 sport hasnt had a jam ever, and Ive put a good 3K rounds through it.

[punkncat]

As far as feel I really like the way the USP fits in my hand. I am hoping I will be able to find a slip on grip for it....With the clip full its got nice weight and balance , but as it empties becomes nose heavy. I guess its one way or the other when considering composite frames vs. metal ones.
I haven't really looked into Sigs, don't know what an SA is, and thought Kimber and Colt 1911's to be well out of my price range. I really like the Commander but hey it isn't a benchmark because it sucks. I am on a fine line in between what I will spend on a firearm and the quality of said piece when also considering every day usefullness.
I plan on using this primarily for in home (etc.) defence and want the projectile to carry the weight to take down a bear if need be...or a bear of a man as the case may warrent :ninja:

[SCpoloRicker]

Do you already own a shotgun? That's a far better home defense weapon.

/back to handguns, sorry

[Steelrat]

As far as feel I really like the way the USP fits in my hand. I am hoping I will be able to find a slip on grip for it....With the clip full its got nice weight and balance , but as it empties becomes nose heavy. I guess its one way or the other when considering composite frames vs. metal ones.
I haven't really looked into Sigs, don't know what an SA is, and thought Kimber and Colt 1911's to be well out of my price range. I really like the Commander but hey it isn't a benchmark because it sucks. I am on a fine line in between what I will spend on a firearm and the quality of said piece when also considering every day usefullness.
I plan on using this primarily for in home (etc.) defence and want the projectile to carry the weight to take down a bear if need be...or a bear of a man as the case may warrent :ninja:

Well, you can get a nice smith and wesson 45 for about $800, but I don't recommend a 1911 style gun for home defense. You want something simple and reliable. A glock is a good choice, as is the HK and Sig, keeping in mind my previous caveat about sig .40s.

But like Ricker said, the best thing for home defense is a shotgun, as it is easy to hit with, has limited penetration, and is intimidating as hell.

[Army]

Magazine, not clip.

[starchief1959]

Well, you can get a nice smith and wesson 45 for about $800, but I don't recommend a 1911 style gun for home defense. You want something simple and reliable. A glock is a good choice, as is the HK and Sig, keeping in mind my previous caveat about sig .40s.

But like Ricker said, the best thing for home defense is a shotgun, as it is easy to hit with, has limited penetration, and is intimidating as hell.


How is a 1911 not simple? Or reliable at that? Pull the slide back, remove the pin and the entire gun comes apart. The military always uses weapons that are simple. I don't say the military always uses reliable weapons because there have been times where an unreliable weapon was released for military use and it's caused the lives of our soldiers (IE- M16), but this was always a reliable weapon from the original use in military weaponry. Minimal moving/wearable parts and extrememly reliable. I've put 1,000's of rounds through mine and have NEVER had a jam. It shoots consistently with practically any round and is a decent weight too. And it's a Rock Island Armory, not a name brand colt. Only run me $300 - $400. Don't remember because it's been some time since I bought it.

Back to punkncat. You are going to recieve suggestions from about any manufacturer and make out there. Depending on the luck of the draw with various weaponry and personal use, everyone likes diferent styles. The best way to find what you're looking for is to try out various pistols and find which suits you the best.

[Steelrat]

How is a 1911 not simple? Or reliable at that? Pull the slide back, remove the pin and the entire gun comes apart. The military always uses weapons that are simple. I don't say the military always uses reliable weapons because there have been times where an unreliable weapon was released for military use and it's caused the lives of our soldiers (IE- M16), but this was always a reliable weapon from the original use in military weaponry. Minimal moving/wearable parts and extrememly reliable. I've put 1,000's of rounds through mine and have NEVER had a jam. It shoots consistently with practically any round and is a decent weight too. And it's a Rock Island Armory, not a name brand colt. Only run me $300 - $400. Don't remember because it's been some time since I bought it.




Frankly, I'm tired of the 1911 people getting all up in arms whenever I mention the gun's deficiencies. I love shooting 1911s, but frankly, there are much better choices for carry weapons, especially for someone who doesn't train intensively with a weapon. I made no mention of reliability, just simplicity of operation. Anything that requires the hammer to be cocked and safeties to be toggled off is just going to be more complex than something like a glock (point and shoot), and will therefore be more liable to failure in a panic situation.

And get your facts on the M16 straight before you go off on a tantrum about weapon realiability. The M16 isn't an unrealiable weapon. Other than needing a chrome lined barrel, the only real initial deficiency was operator training, not the weapon itself.

[PyRo]

If you want somthing simple, just get a revolver. It doesn't get much simpler then that.

[Steelrat]

If you want somthing simple, just get a revolver. It doesn't get much simpler then that.

Very true, though things go south when it comes to reloading.

[SCpoloRicker]

Magazine, not clip.

http://www.re-vision.com/spelling/images/spelling.gif

[starchief1959]

Frankly, I'm tired of the 1911 people getting all up in arms whenever I mention the gun's deficiencies. I love shooting 1911s, but frankly, there are much better choices for carry weapons, especially for someone who doesn't train intensively with a weapon. I made no mention of reliability, just simplicity of operation. Anything that requires the hammer to be cocked and safeties to be toggled off is just going to be more complex than something like a glock (point and shoot), and will therefore be more liable to failure in a panic situation.

And get your facts on the M16 straight before you go off on a tantrum about weapon realiability. The M16 isn't an unrealiable weapon. Other than needing a chrome lined barrel, the only real initial deficiency was operator training, not the weapon itself.


I'm not all up in arms, just stating facts. And he's not looking for a carry weapon, just something for in home defense. And read your original post, I quote "but I don't recommend a 1911 style gun for home defense. You want something simple and reliable." Therefore you did say the 1911 is unreliable. Besides if you think having to cock a weapon is complex, you need to go back to popguns. The 1911 has an additional safety in the dove tail, but otherwise has an excellent fail safe safety on the body which is the same as many other manufactures safety systems. I'm not telling him he has to buy one, he asked opinions and I stated mine.

And as far as the M16, the initial soldier model (XM16E1) being experimental to begin with, the bore and chamber initially had no chroming causing jams. There were cases in which the weapon would jam leaving the soldier unarmed and causing him his life. I have my facts straight, you only have half of them. The M16 was also initially not issued with proper cleaning and maintenance kits causing problems. Though this was not at fault of the weapons design it did cause further downfall in the view of the soldiers. This led to the update and use of the M16A1.

Don't tell me to get my facts straight when you are wrong. If you would like me to back this up with physical proof just ask and I can get you books on the M16 describing exactly what I have just described to you.

And by the way, it was the M14 which required the barrel chroming.

[Steelrat]

I'm not all up in arms, just stating facts. And he's not looking for a carry weapon, just something for in home defense. And read your original post, I quote "but I don't recommend a 1911 style gun for home defense. You want something simple and reliable." Therefore you did say the 1911 is unreliable. Besides if you think having to cock a weapon is complex, you need to go back to popguns. The 1911 has an additional safety in the dove tail, but otherwise has an excellent fail safe safety on the body which is the same as many other manufactures safety systems. I'm not telling him he has to buy one, he asked opinions and I stated mine.

I phrased it poorly, but the reliable part was not a slam against the 1911, but rather other guns. It just happened to be in the same sentence I spoke about the 1911. And if you think engaging in a gun fight is a simple matter of calmy clicking off safeties and cocking hammers, I suggest you never, ever carry a weapon that you might have to use to defend yourselves or others. Go back to reading Guns and Ammo and blindly worshipping the 1911 with the rest of the cool-aid drinkers. Great gun, yes. Super special bestest gun EVAR, no.


And as far as the M16, the initial soldier model (XM16E1) being experimental to begin with, the bore and chamber initially had no chroming causing jams. There were cases in which the weapon would jam leaving the soldier unarmed and causing him his life. I have my facts straight, you only have half of them. The M16 was also initially not issued with proper cleaning and maintenance kits causing problems. Though this was not at fault of the weapons design it did cause further downfall in the view of the soldiers. This led to the update and use of the M16A1.

Don't tell me to get my facts straight when you are wrong. If you would like me to back this up with physical proof just ask and I can get you books on the M16 describing exactly what I have just described to you.

And by the way, it was the M14 which required the barrel chroming.

Wow, I guess the bore isn't part of the barrel now. Oh, wait a minute:

Bore-the inside diameter of a hole, tube, or hollow cylindrical object or device, such as a bushing or bearing, engine cylinder, or barrel of a gun.

I guess you thought I was talking about chroming the outside of the barrel when I ALREADY mentioned that the barrel (i.e., bore) on the M16 wasn't chromed. :rolleyes:

Next time, try to use something other than Wikipedia for your information.

[Al_Steel]

For your stated use the H&K USP is good choice. For that price it's not bad at all. It's got great reliability, it's accurate enough for your purposes, and it's a high quality firearm.

That said I STRONGLY suggest that you take it out and shoot several rounds through it before you purchase it. When talking about selecting a firearm people get all caught up in the brand name and caliber size debate and miss the single most important aspect of firearm selection and that is FIT. If the gun doesn't feel good in your hand, point naturally, and you are comfortable with the recoil then your are never going to shoot it as well as one that does. In addition to that your range time will be limited making you less proficient with the firearm. A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .45.

If you are truly looking for a firearm for home defense then you want something that points naturally, is dead nuts reliable, acceptably accurate (by that I mean able to hit a piece of notebook paper everytime you pull the trigger at 21 feet) and something you will practice regularly with. For caliber, generally .380 and over will suit your needs.

Speaking of practice, if you don't plan to get much range time then an autoloading pistol is NOT a good choice. A revolver is a much better choice because there are no safeties to fumble with, no slides to rack, no magazines to jam up, you just point and pull. If it goes "click" instead of "bang!" you just pull the trigger again. No tap-roll-rack, no flick this lever, no need for fine motor skills that go out the window in the stress of a shooting situation.

A shotgun is a fine choice for home defense as well BUT accuracy still counts. At average home defense distances (7 feet), the spread on #1 shot (the smallest shot size you should use for home defense) from even a bore choke will only be a few inches. So don't expect to get a free pass on accuracy just b/c you are using a scattergun. One of the biggest fallacies that I hear continually is the "intimidation factor" of a shotgun. An irrational intruder, especially one hopped up on drugs, has little fear of a shotgun being "racked".

As far as 1911's go, I love mine. It's a Springfield 1911 GI. It has zero reliability issues with quality ammo. It's usually when people start "tightening up" a 1911 that they get picky about ammo and maintenance. A gun that puts rounds on top of each other at the range may not be the best choice for home defense. It does take some getting used to if you need it in a high stress environment b/c of the array of safety features, but the same can be said of any firearm.

If given the choice in the middle of the night between my .45, my Glock 19, Mossberg 500 12ga, or .357 S&W revolver, I'd take the Smith in a heartbeat. It's gonna go bang everytime I pull the trigger plus I have no safeties, slides, magazines, etc. to mess about with. Also, if I need more than 6 shots I've got more than 6 intruders. :)

For brands, all of the ones that have been suggested are excellent choices in handguns.

-H&K, SIG, Glock, Springfield, Smith & Wesson, Beretta, Taurus, Kimber all make quality handguns that are excellent choices for home-defense.
-.380 is probably as low as you would want to go in round selection. 9mm should be your starting point though.

Bear in mind that there are DOZENS of other factors involved when considering using a firearm for home defense. Namely, other inhabitants, closeness of your neighbors, layout of your home, etc.

Good Luck and Stay Safe!

Oh, and on the M16 point. The original M16/XM16E1 was dismal in it's inititial introduction in Vietnam. It was a combination of several failures in military procurement decisions rather than weapon design that contributed to the M16's introductory problems. It was a cost cutting measure to not have the barrel chome lined. In addition to that, military brass chose not to purchase "smokeless powder" rounds for the gun. In testing in the states, this combination was not a problem. In the hot, damp jungles of Vietnam the combination of high sulfur powder with a unlined barrel would corrode the barrel so badly that the bolt would sometime fuse to the barrel chamber. Also, the sulfur residue from the powder would clog the gas returns. The army quickly fixed these problems by chroming the chamber and barrel bore (M16A1), issuing cleaning kits and instructions on how to properly maintain the weapon in the field. Once they did that the problem went away. Unfortunately the stigma of the M16 being unreliable stuck to it like glue. In reality, you will be hard pressed to find a better weapon than the M16A2. It's reliable, simple to maintain, lightweight, and infinitely customizable to fill a variety of roles. The 5.56mm round may not be the best manstopper in the world, but it's size and weight make it a better choice in a fieldable weapons package than the heavier 7.62mm of the AK47.

[starchief1959]

Again, you jump to conclusions. I said, and again I quote "I have my facts straight, you only have half of them." You only stated the barrel. Also, I never said that the bore and the barrel weren't the same. I was just including the chroming of the chamber. You really need to settle down and take a chill pill before replying to these posts. And Kool-Aid drinkers eh? I'm 25 and have been using various firearms since I was about 6 or 7. I don't read magazines for my information, I test various weapons to find what suits me best. I never said the 1911 was the best, just that in MY opinion I find it to be a simple and reliable weapon.

It's people like you who get off on trying to prove to the world that you're right and the sky is green instead of blue. Always forcing your opinions down peoples throats. I stated my opinion in my first post, why can't you let it be that and state your opinion.

Have you not noticed that I'm not tearing down your precious Sigs or you H&K? I don't care for them, SO WHAT. That's your opinion. What does my opinion matter on you choice of weapon when it's punkncat who's asking for information?




I phrased it poorly, but the reliable part was not a slam against the 1911, but rather other guns. It just happened to be in the same sentence I spoke about the 1911. And if you think engaging in a gun fight is a simple matter of calmy clicking off safeties and cocking hammers, I suggest you never, ever carry a weapon that you might have to use to defend yourselves or others. Go back to reading Guns and Ammo and blindly worshipping the 1911 with the rest of the cool-aid drinkers. Great gun, yes. Super special bestest gun EVAR, no.



Wow, I guess the bore isn't part of the barrel now. Oh, wait a minute:

Bore-the inside diameter of a hole, tube, or hollow cylindrical object or device, such as a bushing or bearing, engine cylinder, or barrel of a gun.

I guess you thought I was talking about chroming the outside of the barrel when I ALREADY mentioned that the barrel (i.e., bore) on the M16 wasn't chromed. :rolleyes:

Next time, try to use something other than Wikipedia for your information.

[Steelrat]

Again, you jump to conclusions. I said, and again I quote "I have my facts straight, you only have half of them." You only stated the barrel. Also, I never said that the bore and the barrel weren't the same. I was just including the chroming of the chamber. You really need to settle down and take a chill pill before replying to these posts. And Kool-Aid drinkers eh? I'm 25 and have been using various firearms since I was about 6 or 7. I don't read magazines for my information, I test various weapons to find what suits me best. I never said the 1911 was the best, just that in MY opinion I find it to be a simple and reliable weapon.

It's people like you who get off on trying to prove to the world that you're right and the sky is green instead of blue. Always forcing your opinions down peoples throats. I stated my opinion in my first post, why can't you let it be that and state your opinion.

Have you not noticed that I'm not tearing down your precious Sigs or you H&K? I don't care for them, SO WHAT. That's your opinion. What does my opinion matter on you choice of weapon when it's punkncat who's asking for information?

Okay, Mr. I-Don't-Force-Opinions-Down-Throats, why don't you go back and re-read who started this. You were questioning my post, not the other way around.

[punkncat]

That said I STRONGLY suggest that you take it out and shoot several rounds through it before you purchase it. When talking about selecting a firearm people get all caught up in the brand name and caliber size debate and miss the single most important aspect of firearm selection and that is FIT. If the gun doesn't feel good in your hand, point naturally, and you are comfortable with the recoil then your are never going to shoot it as well as one that does. In addition to that your range time will be limited making you less proficient with the firearm. A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .45.

One of the things I like most about the USP is that it feels good in my large hands and that it points naturally. I have tried several other makes/ models that didn't point well for me, and thats very important.

I am not a novice shooter, just a novice owner, if you know what I mean. I know my way around a firearm pretty well and have had some range time with several of my own pistols and rifles as well as friends. I am not worried about the recoil of a .45, actually would rather shoot it that a .357mag revolver....I really am not crazy about 6 shooters at all. I much prefer the action and capacity of "auto loaders".

As far as the 1911 is concerned, and as I said before, it hasn't been the benchmark that all other .45's are measured against for so long for no reason. They have been improved upon for certain, but anyone should be proud to have one in their collection. I have looked to the USP in favor of a 1911 because of cost and capacity. If I recall correctly the Colt only holds 7 rounds and cost up to and more than double what I am looking at.

I really appreciate the helpful comments and encourage more.

[Lohman446]

I'm going to go out on a limb here. Don't worry its pretty strong.

If you do not practice with your weapon routinely you should not carry it. That being said a good number of firearms can be made to be great carry weapons, the 1911 included, if you are willing to practice with them. There's a reason the LA SWAT team chose Kimber 1911s. There's a reason that many military forces choose HK pistols. As long as you have a high quality weapon that oyu are confident, familiar, comfortable and reasonably accurate with you have a decent gun. Add stopping power to it and your doing even better, but thats an afterthought to the other concerns.

[SCpoloRicker]

I work for the M16, so I'm really getting a kick out of a lot of these replies... ;)

/pokes starchief1959 with a stick
//steelie gets one too, just cuz

[Al_Steel]

I work for the M16, so I'm really getting a kick out of a lot of these replies... ;)

/pokes starchief1959 with a stick
//steelie gets one too, just cuz

:D What!? I practically built the M16 myself so I'm sure YOU don't have any idea what you are talking about. j/k :D

BTW: My brother-in-law was a Marine Gunney Sgt in Vietnam. He said he took a group of marines out to test fire the M16's when his unit got them. All but 2 out of 12 jammed on the first magazine. :wow: That didn't inspire much confidence when he had just been ordered to give up his venerable M14. :mad:

Punkncat: IMO, my 1911's recoil is actually lighter than the .357's. It's is only a 3" barrel revolver though. Of all my pistols I LOVE the feel of the 1911 and I am more accurate with it at 25 yards than any of my other guns. Each gun has it's strengths and weaknesses. If I was facing multiple intruders I would probably grab the Glock with 15 rounds of artery slicing black talons. If the USP feels natural and you are very comfortable with then it will be a fine purchase. Controllability, reliabiliy, a man-stopping caliber, and a hi-cap is a great combo.

Lohmann hit the 10 ring; practice makes perfect. The more you practice the less likely you will be to fumble in a high stress situation and the more likely you are to stop an attacker. If you can't tell the safety from the mag release in a low light shoot you are just as likely to drop the mag on the floor as you are to flick off the safety catch when you are in the high stress of a shooting encounter. The only way to gain proficiency with a firearm is to practice, practice, practice. It's also why fit is so important. Poorly fit guns don't get used as often and lack of proficiency can get you deaded.

[Recon by Fire]

Magazine, not clip.

Indeed :rofl:

http://www.magmaweb.com/shop/images/FHM%20=%20FOR%20HIM%20MAGAZINE.jpg
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000209YN2.01-A3DRKN6SKDIOQJ.MZZZZZZZ.jpg

[Army]

http://floridasportsman.com/art/lol.gif http://www.floridasportsman.com/art/cool.gif

[Army]

There is a reason why the 1911 is the preferred firearm for action/combat competition shooting.

Simplicity of design and use.

[Al_Steel]

Absolutely, I do think the 1911 get's a bad rep. It's mostly from people that own fantastic plastic. Typically it comes down to 2 arguments: 1) they aren't reliable 2) they aren't safe.

First the reliability issue: 1911's (and this can be said of ANY other gun) have reliability problems when people start messing with them and when they aren't properly maintained. I have over 3000 rounds through my 1911. I have experienced 2 FTF's b/c of a bad magazine follower. That's not the gun folks, thats a crappy mag spring. Other than that, I keep it clean and well oiled and it does great. I believe that problems come from people that expect a 1911 to be maintained like a Glock. I made this mistake...except in reverse. I maintained my Glock too well. I started to have problems with FTF's and light strikes with it. Come to find out I was over-caring for it; which is to say that after each range trip I broke it down, cleaned and oiled it per the manuals guidelines. Well apparently a Glock doesn't need that level of care and it gums up the inner workings. So I cleared it all out with solvent, two drops of oil and haven't stripped it since. I snake the barrel after each range trip and now it runs fine. My point is that if you are used to "Glock style" handgun maintenance then a 1911 will be a bit of a shock. If you run 2000 rounds through a 1911 without ever breaking it down then it will probably begin to jam up.

I've also seen people with 1911 "speed guns" have problems. Granted they are the top choice of competition shooters. That said, you wouldn't drive a NASCAR race car on the freeway for the same reason you wouldn't want to use a "race" gun for personal defense. When people start tweaking a 1911 for range accuracy, speed drills, etc. they tend to get picky about ammo and start to have reliability issues. Again, the same can be said of ANY gun though.. this is not specific to the 1911.

Now on to Safety.. a 1911 has a dizzying array of safeties. A palm safety, hammer block, slide lock, etc. All of these are designed to prevent a ND (negligent discharge). For personal defense, the best option for a 1911 is condition 1 (cocked and locked), hammer back, slide lock engaged, round in the chamber. This looks intimidating b/c the hammer is cocked back. The only justification for the fear that I can think of is Hollywood. For dramatic effect the bad or good guy almost always cocks their gun or racks a slide when drawing down on their opponent. Well that's Hollywood. Other than looking intimidating, the 1911 cocked an locked is as safe, if not safer, than Glocks "safe action" trigger. The hammer being cocked back looks like it could go off if you breathed on it. In reality, you can drop any high quality 1911 directly on the hammer and the hammer will not engage. In contrast it's very easy to engage the trigger on a Glock. There is nothing to prevent the trigger from cycling once the center of the trigger has been depressed. Even if the trigger is pulled on a 1911 you still have to disengage the slide lock AND depress the palm safety. Even though condition 1 (cocked and locked) looks intimidating, I would argue that it's safer than almost any DA pistol safety.

I'm not saying the 1911 is the best pistol eva, just that it should be understood before people pass judgement on it. There is a reason why LA SWAT, MEUSOC, and the top world class competition shooters all use the 1911. The 1911 is an excellent design, as proven by it being around for almost 100 years :wow:

[WaffleBaron]

It's mostly from people that own fantastic plastic.

I like 1911's and own a poly framed pistol. Of course, my SAXD has the grip safety.

[Al_Steel]

+1 :D

G19 and Kahr PM9 for CC, both poly-framed. What can I say, I'm one of those "gun nuts" that you hear so much about. :shooting:

[Steelrat]

Absolutely, I do think the 1911 get's a bad rep. It's mostly from people that own fantastic plastic. Typically it comes down to 2 arguments: 1) they aren't reliable 2) they aren't safe.

First the reliability issue: 1911's (and this can be said of ANY other gun) have reliability problems when people start messing with them and when they aren't properly maintained. I have over 3000 rounds through my 1911. I have experienced 2 FTF's b/c of a bad magazine follower. That's not the gun folks, thats a crappy mag spring. Other than that, I keep it clean and well oiled and it does great. I believe that problems come from people that expect a 1911 to be maintained like a Glock. I made this mistake...except in reverse. I maintained my Glock too well. I started to have problems with FTF's and light strikes with it. Come to find out I was over-caring for it; which is to say that after each range trip I broke it down, cleaned and oiled it per the manuals guidelines. Well apparently a Glock doesn't need that level of care and it gums up the inner workings. So I cleared it all out with solvent, two drops of oil and haven't stripped it since. I snake the barrel after each range trip and now it runs fine. My point is that if you are used to "Glock style" handgun maintenance then a 1911 will be a bit of a shock. If you run 2000 rounds through a 1911 without ever breaking it down then it will probably begin to jam up.

I've also seen people with 1911 "speed guns" have problems. Granted they are the top choice of competition shooters. That said, you wouldn't drive a NASCAR race car on the freeway for the same reason you wouldn't want to use a "race" gun for personal defense. When people start tweaking a 1911 for range accuracy, speed drills, etc. they tend to get picky about ammo and start to have reliability issues. Again, the same can be said of ANY gun though.. this is not specific to the 1911.

Now on to Safety.. a 1911 has a dizzying array of safeties. A palm safety, hammer block, slide lock, etc. All of these are designed to prevent a ND (negligent discharge). For personal defense, the best option for a 1911 is condition 1 (cocked and locked), hammer back, slide lock engaged, round in the chamber. This looks intimidating b/c the hammer is cocked back. The only justification for the fear that I can think of is Hollywood. For dramatic effect the bad or good guy almost always cocks their gun or racks a slide when drawing down on their opponent. Well that's Hollywood. Other than looking intimidating, the 1911 cocked an locked is as safe, if not safer, than Glocks "safe action" trigger. The hammer being cocked back looks like it could go off if you breathed on it. In reality, you can drop any high quality 1911 directly on the hammer and the hammer will not engage. In contrast it's very easy to engage the trigger on a Glock. There is nothing to prevent the trigger from cycling once the center of the trigger has been depressed. Even if the trigger is pulled on a 1911 you still have to disengage the slide lock AND depress the palm safety. Even though condition 1 (cocked and locked) looks intimidating, I would argue that it's safer than almost any DA pistol safety.

I'm not saying the 1911 is the best pistol eva, just that it should be understood before people pass judgement on it. There is a reason why LA SWAT, MEUSOC, and the top world class competition shooters all use the 1911. The 1911 is an excellent design, as proven by it being around for almost 100 years :wow:

I never said the 1911 was unreliable or unsafe. I am currently looking at one to purchase myself, though I fear that I might end up with a nighthawk, and therefore a significantly smaller bank account balance.

Any yes, there is a reason that LA SWAT, HRT, and the other high speed operators use the gun. There is also a reason that normal officers DO NOT carry the gun. Only no one has bothered to read any of the reasons I listed for why the 1911 is a suitable carry gun only for people who have trained with it extensively. They just misinterpret my misgivings about normal carry of the 1911 for an attack against it.

[Lohman446]

I'm going to retake this stance. Unless you are going to properly train yourself with a gun and become comfortable using it you should not carry it.

The idea of giving one gun "points" in a discussion because it is easier to use and requires less familiarity with is a bit alarming. Especially when said guns have "safe action" triggers, or some such thing. Especially when you consider how few people, even those that do train, practice any sort of weapon retention tactics.

Edit: That being said, if you are going to be familiar with it, carry what you want :)

[Steelrat]

I'm going to retake this stance. Unless you are going to properly train yourself with a gun and become comfortable using it you should not carry it.

The idea of giving one gun "points" in a discussion because it is easier to use and requires less familiarity with is a bit alarming. Especially when said guns have "safe action" triggers, or some such thing. Especially when you consider how few people, even those that do train, practice any sort of weapon retention tactics.

Edit: That being said, if you are going to be familiar with it, carry what you want :)

There are plenty of guns you can carry and use with "normal" training. However, there are those firearms whose proper usage requires MORE training. I feel the 1911 is one of them. So if a person asks "what gun do I buy for self-defense" I assume a normal level of training, especially since they had to ask the question in the first place, and therefore do not recommend a 1911. I love how people cite the users of 1911 as being SWAT, competition shooters, etc, which REINFORCES my point. Those folks shoot their guns all the time, far more than an average shooter would.

And I do agree with you, in a way. I feel that most people who carry are completely unqualified to do so.

[Al_Steel]

I never said the 1911 was unreliable or unsafe. I am currently looking at one to purchase myself, though I fear that I might end up with a nighthawk, and therefore a significantly smaller bank account balance.

Any yes, there is a reason that LA SWAT, HRT, and the other high speed operators use the gun. There is also a reason that normal officers DO NOT carry the gun. Only no one has bothered to read any of the reasons I listed for why the 1911 is a suitable carry gun only for people who have trained with it extensively. They just misinterpret my misgivings about normal carry of the 1911 for an attack against it.

Wasn't going after your post specifically, I was simply stating the two most parroted reasons I have heard whenever people bemoan the 1911.

I did read your posts and I think you made the point quite well that it's a platform that takes a lot of practice to become proficient with. I never took away from your posts that you didn't recommend a 1911. While a 1911 takes some getting used to, it may be a great beginner gun for the same reasons a manual transmission is great in a first car. If someone can become proficient with it, all others seem simplistic to operate. BUT I certainly agree that if a beginner doesn't plan to commit to some serious range time then they should not get a 1911 as a carry or personal protection firearm. Instead I would recommend a revolver or a firearm with "revolver like" simplicity such as a Glock, Kahr, etc. That way a poorly trained individual can just "point and shoot" when the adrenaline is flowing, their hands are shaking, vision is tunneled, and fine motor skills are dulled.

BTW: The Nighthawk is an EXCELLENT firearm, good luck with that! :headbang:

[starchief1959]

Steelrat, it was the way you came off in the first posts you made on the subject. If you would have been talking like you've been in your last few posts it wouldn't seem so offensive. I know I know, the way it's interpreted is half the battle. And goodluck with the Nighthawk. Isn't that Walther's newer airpistol? - Peace

As far as MY view on carrying, all my firearms stay in the safe unless I am going hunting or target shooting.

[Al_Steel]

And goodluck with the Nighthawk. Isn't that Walther's newer airpistol? - Peace

I believe Steelrat is talking about this... http://www.nighthawkcustom.com/

[starchief1959]

Never heard of them. Look like VERY nice pistols. And what do ya know? They're all 1911's! :p The only Nighthawk I've heard of until now was the Walther. Sorry to be a turd. :tard:

Best luck to you Steelrat. Let us know how it is if you buy one.

[Steelrat]

Never heard of them. Look like VERY nice pistols. And what do ya know? They're all 1911's! :p The only Nighthawk I've heard of until now was the Walther. Sorry to be a turd. :tard:

Best luck to you Steelrat. Let us know how it is if you buy one.

Apparently, the Nighthawks are made by some guys who used to work at Wilson Combat, which are very highly regarded in their own right.

Sorry about any misunderstanding. Us gun owners gotta stick together :shooting:

[SCpoloRicker]

You call this a gun flamewar!?

/disappointed

[Al_Steel]

I haven't really looked into Sigs, don't know what an SA is, and thought Kimber and Colt 1911's to be well out of my price range.

SA = Single Action - This means that the hammer must be pulled back (cocked) before the trigger will engage. Most 1911's are SA. This makes for a lighter, more accurate trigger.
DA(O) = Double Action (Only) - Means the hammer will cock as you pull the trigger, when the trigger has traveled it's full length the hammer will fall and the gun will fire. Some auto pistols (Kahr's, Glocks.. kinda) are this style trigger. Means a stronger (potentially less accurate) trigger pull but arguably safer for personal carry b/c it's harder to accidentally engage the trigger.
SA/DA = Single Action/Double Action - Means that if you don't already have the hammer cocked the first pull of the trigger will be DA. The subsequent pulls will be SA b/c the slide action of firing subsequent shots will cock the hammer. Most automatic pistols function in this manner. The problem is that the first shot is usually off the mark b/c the trigger pull is harder for the first round. However, follow-up shots are usually more accurate than the first "flyer". Takes some getting used to so that you can control the first round. I THINK the H&K you are looking at is this style of trigger.

Sorry to dig back into the posts, but I noticed this question wasn't addressed and almost all guns are advertised as SA, DAO, SA/DA, DA. :)

Springfield has 1911's starting around $350.00 and the 1911 Mil-Spec is about $500.00. ;)

[hipster]

I have never seen a 1911 even used that goes for $350 even $500 one are few and far between and I have been to the springfield factory

that being said I own big collection of pistols been collecting for around 20 years
I do think the 1911 is a sharp looking pistol but i would never carry mine

what is important is that the pistol you choose to carry from .32 deriger to.380 auto to .45acp or 357 revolver make sure you are comfortable with it and most of all take it to the range and use it ,A carry wepon is no good if ( god forbid) you actually need it and can't hit any thing with it.

[Army]

I just bought a 98% 4" Python for $575.

.

.

.

yeehaw baby!

[Al_Steel]

I bought my parkerized SA GI .45 for $425.00 NIB at a local gun shop. The Mil-Spec could be bought for about $125.00 more. I have seen 'em used for around $350.00 but that was a while (over a year) ago.. maybe the price has gone up since or that was a one time deal.

Army - SWEET! :headbang:

[Recon by Fire]

To offset the DA/SA long trigger pull on the first shot I have developed the habit of cocking the hammer when I draw to get that short pull on every shot. This is on my 92FS.

There are a few revolvers i'm rather interested but i'd really like to get my hands on a Ruger Alaskan in .480 Ruger...just in case I encounter any bears :rofl:

[punkncat]

i'd really like to get my hands on a Ruger Alaskan in .480 Ruger...just in case I encounter any bears :rofl:


:eek:

Wristbreaker

[Recon by Fire]

Yeah, but it is a goood chunk of metal, you can always just knock 'em over the head with it.

[Al_Steel]

A Desert Eagle and H&K Mk23 SOCOM are great as clubs too. :D

[starchief1959]

A Desert Eagle and H&K Mk23 SOCOM are great as clubs too. :D

Not the .44 Eagle though, only the .50AE. My father-in-law has one and it rocks to take to the range. You always get looks like :tard: "What's with the bazooka?"

[Recon by Fire]

I saw this recently, was wondering if anyone else heard any news about it; the Bushmaster .45 AR:

Bushmaster .45 (http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/the45bushmaster.asp)

[Lohman446]

Holy cow.. I'm thinking thats my next home defense rifle...

[shaunyoung000]

I put Dye Stickies on my 1911, it's so comfy ;)

[Pacifist_Farmer]

Allright I've been looking at the XD's off and on for a couple months while I build up some disposable income.

Reading a review somewhere it was mentioned that because the magazine is gripped in the center you can modify large capacity magazines to fit the firearm.


Are most double stack pistol magazines interchangable (at least of the 9mm variety)? Would I be able to use mags from my fathers 9mm Beretta in a 9mm XD if modified?

That 9mm Beretta I mentioned is really the only experience I have with these types of pistols, besides a .22 every other pistol I have ever owned was a revolver.

[Al_Steel]

Allright I've been looking at the XD's off and on for a couple months while I build up some disposable income.

Reading a review somewhere it was mentioned that because the magazine is gripped in the center you can modify large capacity magazines to fit the firearm.


Are most double stack pistol magazines interchangable (at least of the 9mm variety)? Would I be able to use mags from my fathers 9mm Beretta in a 9mm XD if modified?

That 9mm Beretta I mentioned is really the only experience I have with these types of pistols, besides a .22 every other pistol I have ever owned was a revolver.

XD's are really nice pistols, a friend of mine has one in .40 and I have shot it on several occasions. In general, most manufacturer's mags are not interchangeable regardless of caliber. The followers, mags springs, catches, etc are all different and typically cannot be interchanged. There are some exceptions though. Also, 1911 mags are almost all interchangeable. :D

First things first. If you live in MA you are prohibited from posessing a magazine with a capacity over 10 rounds that was manufactured after Sept 1994. So buying a new high-cap mag for an XD is out. I can only guess that the reason that you are asking about modifying Beretta mags is b/c you have an idea where you can get pre-ban ones. ;)

I have heard there are 2 ways to get hi-cap mags for XD's without buying an actual XD hi-cap mag:

1 - Take a standard cap .40 caliber mag, modify it slightly and it will fit 15 9mm rds. This is all well and good, but you gotta know exactly how to modify the mag. Also your witness holes won't line up properly. But the real catch is that this may run afoul of the Mass law about magazine capacity even if the original mag is for a .40 and is legal. Since OEM XD mags didn't exist in 1994, once you modify it for high-cap you are probably breaking the law.

2 - Find a pre-ban high cap Beretta 92 (or SIG, CZ, etc) 9mm mag and modify it for use in the XD. I have read this is very easy to do and simply invovles cutting a notch in the mag to line up with the mag release on the XD. Again I'm not 100% sure where this falls legally. To be safe I wouldn't use ANY high cap magazine made after Sept 1994.

I'd link you to the sites for doing these mods buuut a little research and you will find them easily on your own. :ninja:

As an aside, if you plan on using this gun for CC my advice would be to keep the high-caps strictly for the range. Why? B/c MA is very anti-2A and if you make defensive use of you your pistol with a high-cap magazines a PA will have a field day with you. I know it sucks, but its the world we live in today.

Stay safe!

[Recon by Fire]

Modify a Beretta 92 mag for use in a XD? :confused:

Just keep it legal and go with the 10 round legal maximum for your state. As much as I hate these limitations, 10 rounds should be plenty should you ever actually need them. But since you are limited in capacity anyway, just get the new 45ACP XD.

[Pacifist_Farmer]

Thanks for the input so far guys.

To be honest I have never possessed a firearm in MA and probably never will, I do all of my hunting and shooting in VT where my parents live, and have a large plot of land.

While I feel that some of the restrictions in this state are silly, I completely understand when you factor in things such as population density, and the number of ignorant and angry people around here.

I was not as interested in using high capacity mags, I was mostly curious as too wether I would be able to use mags from several different firearms in all of them, i.e. an XD and say a CXStorm. The flexibilty of not worrying about which mag you have with you seems awfully nice.

Sounds like thats not really an option, but I'll do some reading on the subject on the gun forums.

:)

[Al_Steel]

VT! Well then disregard everything I said about legality, they hand out firearms at the state line in VT don't they? No restriction on firearms ownership (except for the Federal tests), no restrictions on carry, no getting permission from the state to buy a gun.. how sweet is that? :D

Factoid: VT has the lowest incident of gun violence in the nation and the most lax gun laws. Washington DC has one of the highest incidences of gun violence in the nation and the most restrictive gun laws. Coincidence? :tard:

On a serious note, the restrictions placed upon you are not a subject of where you intend to use the firearm, it's where you reside. Handguns have a whole slew of laws and restrictions stapled to them. If you reside in MA then you are still bound by the restrictions of that state for handgun ownership and purchasing. You cannot buy a gun in VT and keep it in VT or transport it into MA without taking ownership in MA via the proper channels. That's called "unlawful interstate transport of a handgun" and it's HIGHLY illegal. To take posession of a handgun that you purchase in VT you must have the firearm shipped to a FFL dealer in MA to complete the transfer of ownership per MA law. Again, it sucks but that's the way it works.

You CAN have your father purchase the firearm, he will be the owner, have him keep it for you in VT and then loan it to you when you go to VT for shooting there. Most importantly your father cannot buy the gun with the intention of giving it to you to take back to MA. This is called a "Straw Purchase", which is illegal on about 15 different levels.

On top of all of this, MA has a list of "approved" handguns that restrict the type and model of handguns that you may purchase. I'm pretty sure the XD is on the list, but you should check it before you purchase.

As far as mag capacity is concerned you can have as many high-cap mags as you want in VT regardless of manufacture date and they are legal, just don't transport them back into MA. :)

[Pacifist_Farmer]

Don't I know it!

I've been using the "dad "owns", I borrow" system for quite some time now. Since I don't hunt and I'm not worried about defending my self or home in MA I have no reason to have a firearm in this state.

And like you pointed out there are so many restrictions and legal ramifications to firearm ownership/possesion in MA I have chosen to avoid it entirely. So I'm not worried about breaking any laws with a "Straw purchase".

And to the best of my knowledge, aside from "discharging firearms in city limits" laws, the only town you can't openly carry in is Montpelier, the capital.

[hipster]

Just to let you know I live in MA and have a lic to carry concealed and do own and have purchased new firearms with high cap clips

that ten round cap is not exactly true

also ma has three types of concealed cary pistol permits one of which being for high cap firearms
for a while when the new laws went into effect everyone ran scared and stopped selling high cap pistols and in some cases stopped selling certain brands all together but since then official interpitaions of the new laws are being released to clarify some of these things
( even a lot of dealers are still having a hard time knowing whats what with the way the laws are worded)

[Al_Steel]

Well, your MA class A LTC (I'm assuming you have a class A b/c class B does not allow you to posess hi-cap mags and does not allow you to CC) allows you to posess and purchase hi-cap mags. Since the OP stated that he didn't own a pistol and was relatively new when it came down to handguns I assumed that he didn't have a LTC. In fact the average law abiding citizen can't even posess a firearm without the state's permission. :mad:

About 12 years ago I looked at moving to Boston (when my judgement was clouded by my sexual drive.. I was dating my spouse). By the grace of God I ended up staying in VA and was spared. Since I owned several firearms at the time, I researched the local laws which is how I know some of MA laws regarding firearms. That and I have a VA CCP which means I try to stay abreast of the laws of states I may travel through or to.

The 3 type of MA gun licenses are:
FID - Firearms ID card - Allows you to buy/own rifles (<10 rd cap) and shotguns
Class B - Allows you to buy/own >10 rd cap rifles, shotguns and handguns (10rd mags)
Class A - Allows you to buy/own all the above, high-cap handgun mags, and carry concealed

BIG CORRECTION: Upon further inspection... my US DoJ handbook on State Firearms Laws and Ordinances 25th Ed, 2004 is a little out of date... forget what I said about pre-1994 hi-cap mags. It appears that ALL high-capacity handgun mags are completely out except for Class A license holders.

[Recon by Fire]

Stupid laws :mad:

[edweird]

Stupid laws :mad:

just another reason im glad I live in AZ.

[Recon by Fire]

15 rounds are my low-cap magazines. I like the 20 round mags in my Beretta now. 30's are a bit too big. :rofl:

[Pacifist_Farmer]

So you prefer your guns to be taller than they are long? :D

[Recon by Fire]

Nothing wrong with an empty mag-club :rofl: