Designing a "cheater" system

[Lohman446]

Last thread on the discussion from me, show patience

I've theoretically done it, with the help of certain people I know. There is a microswitch available that has two clicks through it, two points of activitation. I think it might be key to designing a perfect cheater board.

Imagine these points very close to each other, it would be hard to tell there were in fact two if you were not very familiar with the trigger pull that activites them.

If you pull all the way through its a single, normal trigger pull. This is what the vast majority of users (especially chrono judges) will feel.

However, if you pull into the first one, and not the second one, and hold the trigger there you can access secondary programming on the board.

This secondary programming is going to allow you to shoot as fast as your hopper will feed. Basically go into a default mode to fire the marker as soon as it sees the ball.

Better yet, we know that in addition to shooting at someone its good to be able to get the balls there quicker. So if you are in this second one it increases dwell, giving you a noticeable increase in velocity, and getting you that bit of extra range.

What do you think AO?

[geekwarrior]

um...this sounds just like the other thread...maybe sweetspotting an RT?

[SR_matt]

it was proven that increasing dwell doesnt show a substantial jump in fps and while its cool and all to see it happen it is low down and o ya CHEATING.

but any way these microswitches are interesting, what is the normal use for them or did u just rig 2 very light switches on top of each other?
-matt

[Lohman446]

IF I can't get my desired effect of shot increase through dwell (though I think I can by poorly tuning an LPR) then I'll look at what else the software can do.

Its microswitches.. not an RT

[REDRT]

Your useful post counter is dropping in to the negative.

[geekwarrior]

Its microswitches.. not an RT

well yeah....



you walked away from the sport because you hated the cheating, attitudes, and fashion show. While I realize youre being sarcastic or who knows what about these posts, reading between the lines you seem to be the one who is to concerned with winning.

[paintman1234]

wow rob are you thinking of marketing this? seems like you have been putting an aweful lot of thought into this

[onedude36]

I think that it will be caught if extensive anti-bouce measures are taken. When a ref checks for bounce usually the first thing they do is pull it reall slow, in an attempt to get it to bounce. I think that it would be caught quickly, though not deemed the diabolic ramping it is, and just accidental bounce. I think i have a better idea for gun cheats. I need to implement first though.

EDIT: besides, if i want my gun to ramp, i want it now, not when i find the sweetspot and the guy is already in snake. I think you'd have to have shot this particular trigger for years before you got good enough to make it worthwhile.

[Lohman446]

Fine, then space the clicks further apart. If you pull through both, release back through one, and then pull back through that one you get full auto...

[Cow hunter]

Fine, then space the clicks further apart. If you pull through both, release back through one, and then pull back through that one you get full auto...
sounds like a good idea in theory, i think you should experiment and refine the design.

/no matter what though, refs are gonna catch on sooner or later, and if you market it, chances are tourneys are gonna catch on fast.

[onedude36]

sounds like a good idea. Youd have to get your own code on the board then, that would be the hard part. Oh ya, when a ref sees your fingers not moving, and that thing is taking off, they get irritated quickly. I think its best if you have to still move the trigger at say >7 bps so no body can tell from >15feet away. maybe code activated? then a quick turn off system(hidden switch?) if a ref comes? maybe have it start a ramp sequence for at least 5 seconds(if you keep pulling like 7 or so, it keeps going), then if the trigger stops moving you have to re-activate it?

[CKY_Alliance]

it was proven that increasing dwell doesnt show a substantial jump in fps and while its cool and all to see it happen it is low down and o ya CHEATING.

but any way these microswitches are interesting, what is the normal use for them or did u just rig 2 very light switches on top of each other?
-matt


actually,on my friends dynasty shocker when the hpr wouldnt turn the fps...he had to use dwell....so how much of a difference it made im not sure but must have been pretty substantial..

there and easier way to make a cheater board...just do so u hold the trigger for so many seconds and it activates ramp..hold it for a lesser amount of seconds..it deavtivates it, then theres always membrane pad activation and such....i think you would run too high of a chance of it being found if you did this way....say the ref is rolling on it to check for like % ramp and he doesnt pull as far then he might catch it....idk...you thinking about making a ramp board or just want to see what everyones perspective on it is?...i recall you saying for legal reasons you will only ramp if its capped...so i doubt for personal use.....


cow~ refs can catch on all they want and notice the ramping, but if they cant find it or prove it theres not much they can do..i suppose if several refs notice more then once they could confinscate (sp) the gun for the day.

[Lohman446]

sounds like a good idea. Youd have to get your own code on the board then, that would be the hard part. Oh ya, when a ref sees your fingers not moving, and that thing is taking off, they get irritated quickly. I think its best if you have to still move the trigger at say >7 bps so no body can tell from >15feet away. maybe code activated? then a quick turn off system(hidden switch?) if a ref comes? maybe have it start a ramp sequence for at least 5 seconds(if you keep pulling like 7 or so, it keeps going), then if the trigger stops moving you have to re-activate it?

Not the hard part - my ex brother in law is fully capable, he is heavily involved in the design of electronic systems for the big three. The problem with code activation / deactivation, when I'm ref I have been known to pull guns, literally, to make certain a player could not change settings

[onedude36]

Not the hard part - my ex brother in law is fully capable, he is heavily involved in the design of electronic systems for the big three. The problem with code activation / deactivation, when I'm ref I have been known to pull guns, literally, to make certain a player could not change settings

so then have it de-activate on a timer. Gun is taken mid stream, timer starts, ref pulls player, timer ends, ramping gone, ref shoots gun, gun legal. :clap:

[REDRT]

Not the hard part - my ex brother in law is fully capable, he is heavily involved in the design of electronic systems for the big three. The problem with code activation / deactivation, when I'm ref I have been known to pull guns, literally, to make certain a player could not change settings

How hypocritical of you. Dreaming up a "cheater system", but crack down on player that "might". So it is ok for you? Just the other day it was a rant started by you about how cheating has spoiled the game and your quiting. Today your planing to be a sneakier cheater. What is the matter with you? Do you always play both sides of the issue? Your like a two faced politician. You can't continue to play both sides off the coin and expect people to view you as creditable. Nobody wins when they cheat. Cheating only cheats yourself.

[Lohman446]

How hypocritical of you. Dreaming up a "cheater system", but crack down on player that "might". So it is ok for you? Just the other day it was a rant started by you about how cheating has spoiled the game and your quiting. Today your planing to be a sneakier cheater. What is the matter with you? Do you always play both sides of the issue? Your like a two faced politician. You can't continue to play both sides off the coin and expect people to view you as creditable. Nobody wins when they cheat. Cheating only cheats yourself.

I hope you don't think this particular thread was as simplistic as it looks

[REDRT]

I hope you don't think this particular thread was as simplistic as it looks

I've been here long enough to know your twisted ways. Your like the, "boy who cried wolf" half the time. If you'd just say what you mean insted of pussy footing around with stupid, long, drawen out, craptastic threads of meaningless garbage and get to the point maybe you wouldn't be viewed as such a prick by many among us.

[Lohman446]

I've been here long enough to know your twisted ways. Your like the, "boy who cried wolf" half the time. If you'd just say what you mean insted of pussy footing around with stupid, long, drawen out, craptastic threads of meaningless garbage and get to the point maybe you wouldn't be viewed as such a prick by many among us.


:) Ask people who know me. I'm arrogant, egotistical, and sum myself up as a jerk in less diplomatic terms. I really really don't care what you think of me.

That being said, I have said what I thought, and now Im working on proving it

[SCpoloRicker]

lohman is a jerk.

/neener-neener
//meet me at the bar!

[REDRT]

lohman is a jerk.



I bet there is alot more around that think this way. Lohman has become the player he himself claims makes the game less fun.

[behemoth]

I bet there is alot more around that think this way. Lohman has become the player he himself claims makes the game less fun.

You people are pretty damn dumb.

[CKY_Alliance]

You people are pretty damn dumb.
Ill 2nd that.

[Miscue]

Last thread on the discussion from me, show patience

I've theoretically done it, with the help of certain people I know. There is a microswitch available that has two clicks through it, two points of activitation. I think it might be key to designing a perfect cheater board.

Imagine these points very close to each other, it would be hard to tell there were in fact two if you were not very familiar with the trigger pull that activites them.

If you pull all the way through its a single, normal trigger pull. This is what the vast majority of users (especially chrono judges) will feel.

However, if you pull into the first one, and not the second one, and hold the trigger there you can access secondary programming on the board.

This secondary programming is going to allow you to shoot as fast as your hopper will feed. Basically go into a default mode to fire the marker as soon as it sees the ball.

Better yet, we know that in addition to shooting at someone its good to be able to get the balls there quicker. So if you are in this second one it increases dwell, giving you a noticeable increase in velocity, and getting you that bit of extra range.

What do you think AO?

Blah.

[Ken Majors]

how about electronic chip in a ring, or on a necklace. That once it is close to the board activates any number of cheater type things.

Hand the thing to a ref to check it...he can't find anything wrong.
But whenever the person holding the magic piece of electronics hold it...it is a machine gun/hot shooting/cheaters wet dream.

I in no way advocate cheating....but I am not however, naive enough to think that it does not happen. And sometimes very sophisiticated stuff goes down....and that...is where break throughs are made.


My idea I am sure has been done....if so...I was just brain storming. :cheers:

[ultralight]

lohman, thank you.
i needed a good laugh and this thread delivers.

as far as cheating goes, i'm not too fond of it. i feel that it is tarnishing the sport in many ways. seems to me that if you are caught cheating in a tournament your team is pulled and forfeits the tourney, this covers wiping too. unfortunately, that won't happen. :(

i think ramping and rt are fine for playing "who's is bigger" around the chrono, but in my experience that's about the extent of their usefulness.

playing along: i was watching an interesting show the other day about a firearms company developing a "smart gun" that would only fire when held by the owner. ken, instead of a chip with all of the necessary extras to allow them to talk to each other ( most likely infrared), use a magnet in a ring that pulls an internal switch closed.

[Pneumagger]

I didn't want to read all one page of this thread, but here is My .02, I don't know if it's been said. This just information,... do with it what ou must, I could care less about how you play.

Most every microswitch has 3 prongs on it. A common, an open actuate, and a close actuate. The common is in the middle and the other two are labelled accordingly. Paintball guns use the closed actuate with the common to fire when the switch closes. If you were to switch the wire going from the close actuate to the open actuate, a gun will fire on the release of the pull. No big deal. BUT (and I have doene this sucessfully with a dragun LED) if you split that same wire and run it both outer switch prongs, the gun will fire on the pull and release if the debounce is low enough to detect the microswitch changeover.
Basically, it is a hypermode.

Now when I did this, I used a normal on/off radioshack button to control it. But here is the genius: Take a hall magnetic sensor and supply it with the necessary voltage (usually 5VDC). Run that inline coming from the open actuate prong. Then place a rare earth magnet i9n your right glove. When you shoot the gun with your right hand, the hall switch activates and allows current to pass activating hyper ramping. When the ref fires the gun it doesn't. When you fire lefty to show the ref, it doesn't.

Have fun - I in no way encourage cheating :rolleyes:

[geekwarrior]

wouldnt it be easier to just do it with the software? why the need for an extra switch. Program it so when you hold the trigger for 5-8 sec, and than start firing it goes into uncapped ramping until you stop shooting more than 3-5 balls a sec. When you stop you just remember to hold the trigger back while you move or take cover. I dont think the refs hold the triggers back when they check the guns. Off the break you shoot a pracive ball, hold the trigger while waiting for the start. shoudnt be hard :rolleyes:

[Pneumagger]

The modification doesn't use an extra switch. It uses 1" of wire to split and bridge in the second output prong of any standard microswitch. The hall is just for discrete usability. [News Flash]Programming paintball boards can be pretty hard, time consuming, expensive for equipment, risky, and will still allow the ref to have the ability to acivate your ramp.

My solution uses about $15 worth of parts and a half hour's worth of time to effectively make a smart gun that responds the plyers glove. How many refs do you know that walk around with rare earth magnets in their pockets ;)

[FinchMan]

if you really wanted to be sly, you could put a switch hopper that would make it stop feeding for a few seconds. The break in the paintball feeding would be detected by your gun's eyes and could trigger whatever cheater mode you wanted. To turn the mode off just hold down your trigger for a few seconds.

Or, you could run a wire down the inside of your feedneck and through the eye covers. :ninja:
The switch could be a motion sensor, or even part of the hopper lid.

...even though nobody likes cheaters, or encourages cheating, it's just another technical challange to design sneaky cheating systems.

[Pneumagger]

it is very hard to produce a one off board and could get expensive.

[Chronobreak]

i think lohman has started the alloted number of post for this month :D

as for the microswitch...i want one

[paintman1234]

pneumagger- there was a video were a guy had made an impulse go full auto by holding a magnet up to the trigger frame (magnet in glove) and that connected a switch for a full auto option of some sort

Im guessing that is sort of what you after?

[Pneumagger]

I'm not familiar with what your talking about, but it mosst likely was a hall switch or electrified magnetic lever. Most likely the hall though.

I'm really talking about modifying a trigger switch be actuated while pulled and resting. If the debounce on the board is set right, it will read the midpoint of the microswitch changeover as a "release" and fire the gun when the trigger is forward or backwards.
AKA - hypermode (fires on pull and release), if you pull 8 it shoots 16, if you pull 14 it shoots 28, etc.

You will pretty much want to have an adjustable debounce and a board that can shot-buffer. But my 10BPS capped Dragun led board was great if I pulled less than 5 bps...it had no buffer so it would start to skip shots.

[RRfireblade]

You don't even need to 'cheat' anymore , isn't all that stuff basically legal now?


I've yet to be in a Tourny in the last 2 years that ANYONE anywhere checked on field ROF. After the initial tech inspection they usually don't check anything but FPS. If Tourny locks and ROF is easy enuff to change on the field too. Not to mention 'Break out" modes and the like.

Wasn't it Greenspan that when finally got checked was shooting 22bps? I'm sure that was the first time he's ever done that. :rolleyes: First time he got caught tho.

[kayvon]

besides the point that its cheating and dangerous. make it some insane ramp instead of holding the trigger down, less noticable.
also for activation have a magnetic switch in the trigger fram that is activated by a magnet hidden in your glove. i have heard of this one being done before, but that way when the ref takes the gun then it will be completely legal.

anyways it still sounds dangerous with the velocity jumps, i say leave that part out. leave some of it to skill

[paintman1234]

for activation have a magnetic switch in the trigger fram that is activated by a magnet hidden in your glove. i have heard of this one being done before, but that way when the ref takes the gun then it will be completely legal.

thats what im talking about, basicly you are setting 2 settings a normal legal mode when there is no magnet close and then a mode only activated when there is a magnet close to it (in your glove)

[Pneumagger]

I posted that idea on the first page with a detailed scheme for it to activate a "hyper" mode. I think I even posted something like this back in the spring.
But no one listens to me :cry:

[behemoth]

I posted that idea on the first page with a detailed scheme for it to activate a "hyper" mode. I think I even posted something like this back in the spring.
But no one listens to me :cry:

Joe, its because nobody likes you.

[onedude36]

I posted that idea on the first page with a detailed scheme for it to activate a "hyper" mode. I think I even posted something like this back in the spring.
But no one listens to me :cry:
Dont cry. I've got that idea too, prolly from somone, maybe you,, way back when. Im trying to implement it now. Well see how that goes. :clap:

[SlartyBartFast]

I hope you don't think this particular thread was as simplistic as it looks

Seems to me it probably is. With the hypocrit trolling you've been going for lately, I assume you'll get everyone worked up on this new system and proclaim:
"HA! RT's pulled just right 'cheat' just like this. So both are cheating and should be banned."

Anyways, the idea is stupid. With a normal microswitch it is simple to program a switch tap code or sequence to enter illegal modes. To make it indetectable, a simple sustained pull over a second could reset operation to "normal".

[hitech]

With a normal microswitch it is simple to program a switch tap code or sequence to enter illegal modes. To make it indetectable, a simple sustained pull over a second could reset operation to "normal".

Simple enough that it has been done before. :wow:

[Lohman446]

Seems to me it probably is. With the hypocrit trolling you've been going for lately, I assume you'll get everyone worked up on this new system and proclaim:
"HA! RT's pulled just right 'cheat' just like this. So both are cheating and should be banned."

Anyways, the idea is stupid. With a normal microswitch it is simple to program a switch tap code or sequence to enter illegal modes. To make it indetectable, a simple sustained pull over a second could reset operation to "normal".


I don't care what both are... I care that the similarities of both are acknowledged. Not to say I don't acknowledge the differences of course

[SlartyBartFast]

I don't care what both are... I care that the similarities of both are acknowledged. Not to say I don't acknowledge the differences of course

So Lohamn, why can't you simply have a discussion and keep it to one thread instead of being "smart", evasive, and trying time and time again in different treads?

The tactic is getting old dude.

YOU'RE being the hypocrit avoid open discussion! I've already had some agree with me on that point. You're not winning any friends or influence with your tactics.

[Lohman446]

So Lohamn, why can't you simply have a discussion and keep it to one thread instead of being "smart", evasive, and trying time and time again in different treads?

The tactic is getting old dude.

YOU'RE being the hypocrit avoid open discussion! I've already had some agree with me on that point. You're not winning any friends or influence with your tactics.


Wait a minute. Rogue opens a thread to discuss a comment I made, adn somehow that thread is attributed to me. A comment made, in reponse to the BS term "artificial BPS". Somehow its me thats opening all these threads.

I opened this thread and one other thread taking a different approach to illustrate a point. Your smart enough to understand that

[SlartyBartFast]

I opened this thread and one other thread taking a different approach to illustrate a point. Your smart enough to understand that

You opened two threads, another was started based on your accusation.

Illustrate you points in one thread if you can. Otherwise you're just trying to avoid the opinion that stacked up against you in the other thread.

That's my opinion at least.

Seriously, how many analogies do you need to come up with to illustrate the same point? And how do you expect anyone to respect your other thread when the point is the same, and the analogy is shot down with exactly the same counter arguments.

Sorry.

[Lohman446]

You opened two threads, another was started based on your accusation.

Illustrate you points in one thread if you can. Otherwise you're just trying to avoid the opinion that stacked up against you in the other thread.

That's my opinion at least.

Seriously, how many analogies do you need to come up with to illustrate the same point? And how do you expect anyone to respect your other thread when the point is the same, and the analogy is shot down with exactly the same counter arguments.

Sorry.


Actually my opinion is pretty self serving. The more its attacked the stronger it becomes ;)

[SlartyBartFast]

Actually my opinion is pretty self serving. The more its attacked the stronger it becomes

Only in your own mind. Only in your own mind.... :rolleyes:

Repeating the same thing over and over again neither proves a point or convinces others. No more than repeating "The Earth is flat" will prove or convince me of the Earth's flatness.

While I (and others) have challenged your position, questioned your analogies, and attacked your methods, I haven't rabidly defended Mags or been the hypocrit you accuse AO members of being.

I do however refuse to see the world in black and white, and I'm baffled at what you really want to prove by your little hissy fit against Mags and AO members.

You continue however to avoid defending or discussing your point of view and hypocirtically avoiding the open discussion you so vociferously demand of others.

Pathetic. The more you troll, the more my opinion of you decends. I used to stalk your threads because I respected your opinion (even if I didn't always agree). I think you've successfully changed my motivation.

Seems to me you've come to the point that many in on-line communities come to. You've lost the passion, but are still addicted.

You're just looking for one last pat on the back, proof you're right, so that you can leave and feel all warm, fuzzy and superior. Sorry to disappoint. :rolleyes:

[Pneumagger]

:eek: woah... Slarty
Go sit down in the corner now. That was so mean. :nono: I'm saddened now for some reason. :confused:

[Lohman446]

I have a theory, I voiced it, it directly involved AOers. My opinion was questioned so I made two threads to try to illustrate my point. Both threads may serve to prove me wrong. THink what you will of the threads but they served a purpose. Whats the purpose of the attacks that seem to take both threads away from the discussion presented? Is there a concern, if left to discuss the topic matter of these two threads, may prove my point? Frankly I was stuck in a point of having to admit I might be wrong, but the threads have been so overwhelmed by discussion outside of the thread topic that its impossible for them to serve any purpose.

[SlartyBartFast]

Is there a concern, if left to discuss the topic matter of these two threads, may prove my point?

The statement I quoted from you above, coupled with the complete lack of counter arguments when you are challenged has CLEARLY shown that you aren't interessted in considering you might be wrong.

Hell, noone could prove you wrong because your being so evasive about what your point is anyways.

To be blunt, you're simply being an instigateur.

I've made plenty of on topic points against you and your position. You've ignored them all.

You aren't interested in discussiong or considering your point. You simply want to tire everyone out in multiple threads until they give up indisgust. I'm assuming after that point we'll see a triumphant "I'm right, AO is wrong post".

The fact that I'm the only one stubborn enough to continue and the absense of any of the respected regulars highlights that the others seem to have given up on you. You couldn't defend you position in the opther thread, you ran away here.

Get over it. Sure RT or runaway might be as bad as another form of cheating, but they are EASILY avoided or malfunctions of the system. Not built in modes that are now accepted as are electronic aides.

Besides the fact that AGD RT mode is still within the letter of the rule saying one pull, one shot. There's no way ramping or other electronic aide comes close to respecting that.

[hitech]

Besides the fact that AGD RT mode is still within the letter of the rule saying one pull, one shot.

Actually, no it is not. The rules state that the pull AND release must be DELIBERATE.

[SCpoloRicker]

Geez, turn down the sensitivity knob a bit...

[Lohman446]

Are you saying an RT marker doesnt require a release of force?

I think a strong argument could be made that unless very carefully set up there is a point in the trigger that does not require you to release force. If you are pulling with two lbs of force and it kicks back with four as you continue to pull, there is no release needed.

I'm not trying to call anything wrong with the marker. I love the RT for what it is. I also have no issue noting the flaws that it has.

As to the "letter of the rule"


7.3.7. A marker that has not been fired within the previous second may fire no more than one shot per press and release of the trigger until after the marker has been fired three times.


6.31 The definition of a trigger is the moveable lever or button that comes in contact with the finger. The contacts of a switch are not a trigger. A trigger pull requires an exertion of force by the finger on the trigger and a release of force by the finger on the trigger during every firing cycle.

Now, I acknowledge that a very carefully tuned mag can be made to fall into this, but release is a release of the pulling pressure (the NPPL rules are clear it does) - at least to my interpertation, no doubt others are going to be different. I think it also evident by the RT trigger return that there maybe an issue.

[Lohman446]

You aren't interested in discussiong or considering your point.


Thanks for letting me know that. I thought I was...

As to running away to these threads - the intent when I made them was to link these threads once discussion was going for illustrative purposes. It was not me who moved this discussion into these threads. There's a thread on the discussion already, and yeh, I defend my position in these threads, but this thread, when started and until the discussion was brought to them, were meant as illustrations.