How do you make a boardless electro?

[iambored]

I've recencty heard of a boardless electro custom and think you would need a battery, microswicth, and noid but you need something to link the switch to to make the noid operate.
Any ideas?

[CKY_Alliance]

when i saw this i was like wtf..thats the dumbest thing ive heard..then i thought about it and i guess if you wanted to just shoot semi and powered the micro switch then it may be possible..im not to savvy in this department..

[Shingo]

Sure it's doable... the board is basically a switch with some extras.

hook up the battery to the noid using some wires and use a microswitch to break and trigger the circuit.

Easy.

[Pneumagger]

You'll need some other small things to create a "Pulse Width" in the noid. This is basically dwell. Without it your dwell will be about 1ms and not shoot anything. Not tough to do at all with the right small electrical compnents. Should cost you a few cents for them too.

[1337caesar]

yeah, i could send you all the components you need for 1c plus shipping

best way i can think of would be a simple inverter with a R/C delay, you could get semi, 2 shot and 3 shot burst on the same chip too if you really want to.

[RRfireblade]

Problem is without a tight control of the dwell your battery life will be quite poor and the life of the 'niod will be substantially redused.


You finger will keep the 'niod "on" for like a 50 times longer than it needs to be.

[fullofpaint]

didn't the super nova work like that?

[Arstron]

Look into a 555 or 556 timmer chips. It might not be exactly what you want, but it would help a ton for what you are wanting.

[jenarelJAM]

Why wouldn't you use a capacitor? Battery charges capacitor, you hit the switch, Capacitor now hooked up to a new circuit inclusing the noid. Bam, gun shoots. Trigger released, capacitor switched back to battery circuit, charges...

I don't understand all that about dwell... I wouldn't think of making a boardless emag, but for a spyder, I don't think you need to worry about dwell or anything, just hit the pancake solenoid and it releases the bolt... etc...

[Joni]

I think I read somewhere that someone had experimented with simple timers (i.e 555), but the problem was that dwell fluctuated due to temperature and other external variables.

This wouldn't be as much of a problem on a simple sear tripper though... just remember that debounce has to be incorporated as well.

[Tim Taylor]

While a capacitor is necessary for providing enough juice to activate the solenoid. The problem is charging the capacitor takes less than 1 millisecond, much faster than you can pull and release the trigger. That charge, release, fire cycle is typically controlled by a chip.

Without a chip the trigger is pulled, charges the cap then fires the solenoid. It takes maybe 15 to 20 milliseconds to activate and release the solenoid. Even at 15 BPS you are only charging releasing at more than 66 milliseconds. With the solenoid being activated so long there is significant heat created (that's a bad thing for a coil).

For what a board costs it's not worth the trouble building something. Even if the parts are uner a $ each by the time you get it working right and find the right combination you will have spent more than if you would have bought the board.

[jenarelJAM]

I don't understand your explaination... If what you say about it only taking 1ms to charge a capacitor is true... that should make it really easy...

Phase 1: Trigger unpressed, battery connected to capacitor, capacitor charging
Phase 2: Trigger is pulled, 3way switch in trigger disconnects capacitor from battery, reconnects capacitor to alternate circuit including solenoid.
Phase 3: solenoid activates, marker fires, capacitor energy expended, no net flow of charge
Phase 4: Trigger is released, 3way switch switches "empty" capacitor back to battery circuit
Phase 5: Trigger is unpressed, battery connected to capacitor, capacitor charging.

I don't know what you were reffering to when you said 15-20 ms and 66ms, please be more clear, I'm interested, and I don't know much about electronics... so feel free to tell me I'm wrong.

And I've had to replace the capacitor on a spyder board before, it's about $1, and All you would need is a 3way switch, a few wires, a capacitor, a pancake solenoid, and a soldering iron(and solder).I'm assuming that you could just solder the 3way and pancake solenoid to the inside of the trigger frame without any extensive milling or whatever. Or you could find like... a $20 old e-spyder and rip the board out.

[RRfireblade]

As been said , it's as simple as it sounds and it works. THe problem is your slow finger speed will burn out the 'niod much sooner and kill the battery much faster. That's why no production marker being made , no matter how cheap , functions that way.

Just go buy a used E- Spyder/PMI/Etc anything for like $50 and use that board and 'niod and be done with it. ;)

No guess work needed.

[jenarelJAM]

Wait, but I'm interested...
I don't get why it burns out. I don't know much about electronics, but why would the battery run out faster? there is no current once the capacitor is charged, so there shouldn't be a lot of energy lost, and the battery is completely disconnected when the capacitor is attacked to the 'noid. Please explain this, the only electronics I know is fron physics, so It's limited, but I might want to build this sometime... I like to tinker.

[Lenny]

Wait, but I'm interested...
I don't get why it burns out. I don't know much about electronics, but why would the battery run out faster? there is no current once the capacitor is charged, so there shouldn't be a lot of energy lost, and the battery is completely disconnected when the capacitor is attacked to the 'noid. Please explain this, the only electronics I know is fron physics, so It's limited, but I might want to build this sometime... I like to tinker.

Basically, without a board regulating how much of a charge the solenoid gets, your finger will make the solenoid activated longer than nessessary. Remember, we're talking nanoseconds here. Human fingers are nowhere near as fast as the solenoid would need, thus we turn to a board.

Cahoots?

[Arstron]

Basicly what Lenny said is, the board limits the solenoid to only opening to a certain amount of time (dwell), will say 15ms (although all boards are diffrent). Your fingers when pulling the trigger and triggering the micro switch will keep the switch on for a much longer period of time, lets say 100 ms. Without a board, the solenoid will stay on for as long as the trigge is pulled which would be like running a board at 100 ms. Powering the noid for such a long period of time per trigger pull is what will kill the solenoid and battery. Does that help?

[jenarelJAM]

I get what you're saying now... but couldn't you get around that by choosing a capcitor with a high voltage but not alot of charge? That way it fires the solenoid, but then runs out of energy and the solenoid isn't overloaded for long periods of time. Even if your finger is pressing the trigger and the capacitoris still connected to the circuit, it wouldn't have any energy left to put a strain on the 'noid.

Comments?

[Lenny]

Basicly what Lenny said is, the board limits the solenoid to only opening to a certain amount of time (dwell), will say 15ms (although all boards are diffrent). Your fingers when pulling the trigger and triggering the micro switch will keep the switch on for a much longer period of time, lets say 100 ms. Without a board, the solenoid will stay on for as long as the trigge is pulled which would be like running a board at 100 ms. Powering the noid for such a long period of time per trigger pull is what will kill the solenoid and battery. Does that help?
Is my English so bad I need a translator? :tard:

/sarcasm

Very well put. That is what I was trying to say. After re-reading my post, yours makes much more sense. Thanks. :hail:

[RRfireblade]

I get what you're saying now... but couldn't you get around that by choosing a capcitor with a high voltage but not alot of charge? That way it fires the solenoid, but then runs out of energy and the solenoid isn't overloaded for long periods of time. Even if your finger is pressing the trigger and the capacitoris still connected to the circuit, it wouldn't have any energy left to put a strain on the 'noid.

Comments?

Doesn't really matter , a Cap is constantly trying to take and release a charge any time current is available (trigger pulled).

[Arstron]

Is my English so bad I need a translator? :tard:

/sarcasm

Very well put. That is what I was trying to say. After re-reading my post, yours makes much more sense. Thanks. :hail:

No harm intended, I just wanted to give a visual of what was happening. :cheers:


Doesn't really matter , a Cap is constantly trying to take and release a charge any time current is available (trigger pulled).

Dont forget, even though the energy in the cap is low, it will still be recieving the same amount of energy from the battery, which will still keep the coils in the solenoid activated.
*edit, I just realized you was saying the same thing, I completly misread your post, sorry!*


iambored or anyone else, dont let people that say it cant be done stop you from trying. You can learn a lot by simply doing a project by your self. Rember, if you build a frame that works with just a solenoid, capacitor, switch, and battery and it doesnt work, all you have to do is add a board to the mix and you still have a custom electronic trigger frame. You will learn a lot along the way as well as have a ton of fun (if you enjoy somthing like this). If anyone is wanting to do this contact me, I think I have a couple of old electronic spyder type frames that I can sell pretty cheap.

[Lenny]

No harm intended, I just wanted to give a visual of what was happening. :cheers:
None taken! :cheers:

[jenarelJAM]

Doesn't really matter , a Cap is constantly trying to take and release a charge any time current is available (trigger pulled).
Where is the current available from? the battery should be disconnected from the capacitor while the trigger is pulled... capacitor switches between two completely separate circuits. Battery circuit "loads" the capacitor, 'noid circuit "unloads" the capacitor...

I feel like I'm missing something elementary and you guys are all laughing cause I'm not getting it...

[RRfireblade]

How is anything 'disconneted' ?

When the trigger is pulled , the battery supplies current to the 'niod. Whether or not you use a Cap inline doesn't change that. Similatanious to the Caps discharge to the 'niod is the Cap recharge from the battery. The battery is constantly supplying current to the Cap and then to the 'niod which is continually energized with the trigger pulled.

[Arstron]

Just thinking here, but what if you used a relay? It could be setup to stop the energy going from the battery to cap and to allow the energy in the cap to go to the solenoid. Of course deciding on what size cap would give you how much dwell would be a pain in the butt.

[RRfireblade]

Sure , that's what a 'board' acts as. :D

Seriously tho , you just need to add a timer curcuit like a 555 or something.

[jenarelJAM]

Just thinking here, but what if you used a relay? It could be setup to stop the energy going from the battery to cap and to allow the energy in the cap to go to the solenoid. Of course deciding on what size cap would give you how much dwell would be a pain in the butt.

That's what I was thinking of, I just didn't know what it was called.

Like this:
<a href="http://photobucket.com/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e383/jenarelJAM/untitled-1.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting"></a>
Please excuse the poor quality... Microsoft Paint...

[Tim Taylor]

Try it.

It is sometimes better to experiment to learn things.

Good luck and buy plenty of batteries and Noids!

[K Wolf]

I don't understand your explaination... If what you say about it only taking 1ms to charge a capacitor is true... that should make it really easy...

Phase 1: Trigger unpressed, battery connected to capacitor, capacitor charging
Phase 2: Trigger is pulled, 3way switch in trigger disconnects capacitor from battery, reconnects capacitor to alternate circuit including solenoid.
Phase 3: solenoid activates, marker fires, capacitor energy expended, no net flow of charge
Phase 4: Trigger is released, 3way switch switches "empty" capacitor back to battery circuit
Phase 5: Trigger is unpressed, battery connected to capacitor, capacitor charging.

I don't know what you were reffering to when you said 15-20 ms and 66ms, please be more clear, I'm interested, and I don't know much about electronics... so feel free to tell me I'm wrong.

And I've had to replace the capacitor on a spyder board before, it's about $1, and All you would need is a 3way switch, a few wires, a capacitor, a pancake solenoid, and a soldering iron(and solder).I'm assuming that you could just solder the 3way and pancake solenoid to the inside of the trigger frame without any extensive milling or whatever. Or you could find like... a $20 old e-spyder and rip the board out.

I don't see why this would not work for uncapped semiauto, as long as the capacitor is choosen correctly.

[shatter_storm]

That circuit would work quite well - as long as your capacitor has enough stored energy to fully kick the 'noid over. If you did the math and sized the cap properly, you would actually have fairly decent battery and noid life, but very little (adjustable) control over dwell. Toss a resistor on the battery side of it so the cap isn't thrashing the battery, and you'd have something usable.

Only real downside is that switch bounce is going to make charging that cap fully a difficult task. And you can't really eliminate switch bounce in this circuit. :(

[jenarelJAM]

I'd only use it on something like a spyder..., dwell doesn't matter cause it just releases the hammer, and then the marker fires by itself.

[Ydna]

ehhhhh to be honest after reading this thread I'm kindof surprised nobody has just suggested making simple-as-hell boards with microcontrollers. The circuit design would be increadibly simple and the programming would be as easy as making an LED blink for some amount of time when the switch hits (which is pretty much the first thing you do when working with microcontrollers). It'd cost mroe in the end since you'd have to invest in a ROM programmer and also $5-10 worth of parts for the circuit, but the functionality would be a LOT better I think.

[coyote]

Here is the best arguement against a boardless electro.

The circuit board also runs your ACE logic. No board, no anti chop eyes.

[RavishingEddie]

Wait. I thought the Nova used no boards and wasn't it electro??

[Ydna]

nah, novas weren't electronic, they used a trgiger valve to actuate the marker.
There was an electro version after a while, but it didn't get very far.