Hmm... Miguel actually got me thinking...

[Lenny]

Well, Don Miguel actually made a great addition to the forum (I believe) with the AGD innovations thread. (By the way, huge kudos. You've climbed a step on the ladder of respect in my book. Don't ruin it. :D ) This got me thinking two conditions:

Condition One: If AGD never existed, how advanced do you think paintball would be today? What *type* of gun would you currently be shooting? Etc. Take into consideration these: NO HPA; NO 6-pack; NO blow-forward gun; NO RT; NO forcefeed (warp feed); NO Intellifeed; etc.

Condition Two: Say AGD never existed, but they're innovations had, someway or another, made it. Force feed is available, HPA is avalable, mechanical anti-chop is available, etc. How do you think the game would've changed? How would this've effected the 'Mag vs. "Cocker war? How would this have effected other companies gun operation styles? What would you be shooting now? Etc.

Please keep postings as to which condition you are answering semi neat for ease of reading.

I personally have no real opinions, but I'd still like to hear some of yours.

Oh, and Mr. Tom, if you'd chime in with a bit of your wise input, that'd be really great. I'd love to hear the opinions of the big man from the company.

Thanks all!

[AGD]

Ok I will go first.

Innovations happen as a factor of necessity. If we hadn’t brought these ideas to the forefront someone else would have. Its all about timing, if you are too early you loose, if your too late you loose too. In the case of the warp feed it was too late. Compressed air was too early and we took a ton of heat for it. The need for faster rates of fire drives this market, so anything that would achieve that end had to happen at one point or another. Which brings up an interesting point, now that the ROF race is over, where do we go next?

Now things could have gone in a completely different direction. Had the Tippman propane gun come out 13 years ago HPA might never have happened. Had I done the warp in 1990 there never would have been a ridiculous hopper on top of the gun.

So yes the innovations would have happened but not necessarily the way it did. No paintball inventions were earth shaking, they were just applied from other areas.

AGD
ty

[RavishingEddie]

Tom, you are my hero and I believe everything you say. But there is something that is troubleling (sp?) me. Sure timing is important, but have you guys noticed the progress of today to the progress from before? The only progress I see is trigger and body design changes and they are charging big bucks every year for that even when the guns are made china. Most of these companies like Smart Parts are not innovators they are marketers and promoters. I find it hard to believe that these same companies would do more than Tom would do if he was in their shoes. There is no risk in copying something and just making it a tad better, which to me all companies except for Tippmann has been doing. It takes balls to go out and actually be the innovator. In other industries innovators are the ones that superceed and win, but in paintball it is the opposite because your majority of players are kids that don't know crap about their gun except that a naked chick is holding it.

I am an experience scenario player. I have been in real bad situations and found out that at those very tough times what I wanted the most was a gun that was accurate, easy to handle and most importantly it would SHOOT! Speed was the very least of what I needed. Unfortunately these days people would look at you weird if you ask them what marker takes the most beating and keeps on shooting? You most likely will get a crap remark like "get a tippmann". :mad: Although the times have changed the players haven't and there are many players that have had it and just want a gun based on reliability and quality craftmanship. I just know that AGD will always have a fan base, because you can never ignore quality.

[RRfireblade]

I'd say Tom summed it up about right.

We'd likely be in the same spot just thru a different path. HPA cylinders were in use in other fields , someone would have stumbled apon it eventually , current force feed loaders developed on thier on line and not as an evolution of the Warp , etc.

The only real question is would anyone have ever thought to stuff a whole Cocker in just the bottom tube. :D

[Aggravated Assault]

Hmmm, this thread got me thinking also. Now I Have something to ponder at work today. :)

Anyway, one thing I would have to reqason is: probably most or all of those innovations would have came down the line anyway - in one form or another.

Take force feed: there always was the ROF arms race. At some point the markers were bound to get too fast for the ol' "ammo box" somehow we needed to get them little paintballs in there faster.

Same with what we fired our markers with. More shots before changing and/or faster changing of the 12g's.

I found the point AGD brought up interesting too; What IF the propane gun would have came out long ago. I dont know squat about propane in this sense, but I'm assuming it gets a lot of shots per cylinder and is not radically affected by temp. Hmm, never thought about that one....

Anyway, time to go to work, hopefully I'll have something to add afterwards.. :cool:

[warbeak2099]

The only real question is would anyone have ever thought to stuff a whole Cocker in just the bottom tube. :D

Semi-auto phantom?

[geekwarrior]

without AGD, there would be no AO :cry:

[RavishingEddie]

yeah without AGD I would probably still be fighting chickens and running from cops. ;)

[Lohman446]

I'm going to question HPA. Tom was actively seeking an alternative source for mag issues. Without the mag there may not have been the active search. Tom also used the AGD name and his own powers of persuasion to get HPA in - again I don't know that anyone else would have bothered, we may just be running ultra-regged CO2 sources with better developed regs and anti-siphon systems. Not to say it would have changed a lot, put us back a few years more perhaps.

[Lenny]

I'm going to question HPA. Tom was actively seeking an alternative source for mag issues. Without the mag there may not have been the active search. Tom also used the AGD name and his own powers of persuasion to get HPA in - again I don't know that anyone else would have bothered, we may just be running ultra-regged CO2 sources with better developed regs and anti-siphon systems. Not to say it would have changed a lot, put us back a few years more perhaps.
This is closer to what I was getting to.

I want to know how YOU all would be along with paintball society. What would YOU be shooting? What types of gear would be out there? Any other predictions of changes.

[RavishingEddie]

My idea would be that the sport would still be at its infancy. The reason is because of $$$ vs. Passion. I believe Tom loves AGD but he loved Paintball just as much. He had the chance to patent many things and thus cause innovation to stop growing, but he didn't he made the HPA available to everyone. The same for the Blow forward design and so forth. Just imagine what would of happened if Smart Parts had invented the HPA. :eek:



C02 anyone?

[don miguel]

Thanks lenny, I was wondering why nobody had posted something like that already? (agd greatest...)
:cheers:

[don miguel]

Ok I will go first.

Innovations happen as a factor of necessity. If we hadn’t brought these ideas to the forefront someone else would have. Its all about timing, if you are too early you loose, if your too late you loose too. In the case of the warp feed it was too late. Compressed air was too early and we took a ton of heat for it. The need for faster rates of fire drives this market, so anything that would achieve that end had to happen at one point or another. Which brings up an interesting point, now that the ROF race is over, where do we go next?

Now things could have gone in a completely different direction. Had the Tippman propane gun come out 13 years ago HPA might never have happened. Had I done the warp in 1990 there never would have been a ridiculous hopper on top of the gun.

So yes the innovations would have happened but not necessarily the way it did. No paintball inventions were earth shaking, they were just applied from other areas.

AGD
ty
But thank god you came up with it. :hail: AGD :hail:

[RoLLonBombs]

i personally agree, that since neccesity is the mother of invention that others would have eventually came of with the sme ideas in some form or another, but i also believe that if it hadnt been agd, and it had been a company that was just in it for profit margins and not for advancement of the sport and love of the game , that it would have alot less qaulity and alot more flash and dollar signs with poor customer service and business owners who have no respect for the people buying there product, and perhaps the paintball playing public would have felt used and grown tired of being taken advantage of, but since agd products as i have heard so many people say have soul, and great customer care and respect for the sport, they have built a foundation for the sport to stand on even in todays saturated market of the flash and dollar signs that where beat to the punch

[RoLLonBombs]

i thinki probably would nto be shooting anything

[Lohman446]

I think we can safely say we would be shooting perfectly round paintballs made out of plastic injection moulding. Who else in the industry would have spent the money TK did in developing and testing them and then scrapped the idea for paintball. Face it, the reasons why a perfectly round and consistant paintball is better are so numerous and so strong at face value... think of the hype. I'm thankful that TK developed them. I'm thankful he was more of an engineer than a saleman and actually tested them. I'm thankful he admitted the lack of true performance gains and did not jam them down our throats with the hype.

[RoLLonBombs]

thats what im talking about he wanted to advance the sport, not exploit it