How to make a non partial Governing body in paintball today

[Chronobreak]

long title i know, but i couldnt reword it any better

are they days and dreams of an overall governing and enforcing body or group dead in paintball these days?

who would the leaders be, industry people, players, others ?

how would they enforce decisions?

do players really want this?

does big industry in paintball have enough $ to influcen discisions regardless of if they are beneficial to the sport?



i know this topic has been visited upon in the past but i was curious if anyones viewpoints have changed. and im pretty bored.

[JRingold]

Unless there is money in it, I can't see it happening.

[neppo1345]

Before any of that can happen, paintball needs to show it has the potential to make money for non-paintball oriented companies.

Until there is money to be made outside of paintball, there will be no non-partial governing body; only players and paintball companies.

We don't need players and paintball companies calling the shots, we need businessmen.

You won't see them until they realize they can make some scratch.

[p8ntball72]

Non-partial would have to exclude all industry ties,

I think the major paintball insurance agencies should form a governing body.
Then dictate enforceable standards that the industry would have to comply to.

[Chronobreak]

like it has been said the company or group would need $, and the only people making $ are the biz's that only want regulations and rules taht benefit them and the sales of their products.

IE if a true semi only rule was in effect how many boards would be just about utterly useless, and why need an aftermarket board?

the idea is to get a governing entitiy in palce BEFORE insurance or other entities are forced to step in.

on a sidenot how many insurance companies allow rof other than true semi?(or know that their fields allow them), my guess is very....VERY....few

[neppo1345]

Look at NASCAR.

They showed they had earnings potential, and were bought up by Time Warner.

They institute their own guidelines, allowable displacement, weight, size.

When they realized it was getting dangerous, the instituted restrictor plates and new restraint systems.

Can someone tell me what 'sport' has the fastest growing fanbase?

I'll give you a clue: It's not womens Curling.

http://www2.raisport.rai.it/news/sport/sci/200202/21/3c751c9e03ff4/curling.jpg

/God I hate NASCAR

[grEnAlEins]

why need an aftermarket board?
Better trigger/eye logic, cool blinky lighs, better debounce settings, cool blinky lights, battery efficientcy, cool blinky lights, FSDO/ABS settings, cool blinky lights. I like blinky lights :cool:

Neppo, how do you feel about women's curling? :p

[Chronobreak]

yeah i gues your right, those thigns are important, but perhaps they can only get soo good..ya know?

as far as boards at this point modes/mode types seem to be the selling point and have been for some time.

[grEnAlEins]

yeah i gues your right, those thigns are important, but perhaps they can only get soo good..ya know?

as far as boards at this point modes/mode types seem to be the selling point and have been for some time.
I guess they are for most of the people who buy them. Personally I don't really use modes at all, except I did use OMFG mode over the chrono last time before I played, just to see the jaws drop... :rofl: I switched back to semi for actual play though.

[SCpoloRicker]

Bring in the United Nations? ;)

[robnix]

Until the major paintball companies see that there's more money to be made by working together on this than there is by trying to go it alone and be king of the hill, no. Then again paintball itself is a big game of king of the hill.

The recent Smart Parts Paintball Championship on ESPN is a great example. I thought the match format was great, but the production values and single sponsor whoring was just awful. Thank god for fast forward on the Tivo.

The difference between Paintball and NASCAR, is that NASCAR sets a standard for it's races, that the manufacturers and sponsors to bring their products to, Paintball allows the sponsors and manufacturers to set the standard that the games are based on.

In a nutshell, you have to believe that the standards of the game set the bar for any future you may have as a sport.

I hope this made sense. I'm tired.

[mobsterboy]

who says we need a non partial governing body? Just make all the tourneys all mechanical, non trigger-assist guns.(IE: TRUE semi) If you think your so good, what difference is the gun or the ramping gonna do to your "ubermad skills"? No bounce, no sweet spotting, no electronics or faulty boards to blame a bad day of play on, just true semi and your fingers(assuming most of you still know how to use them after this crutch with a label of ramping came out).

[Beemer]

Well its all about the politics in the Game.

First off ask yourself this. WHY after twenty years DONT we have a real governing body?
Why did the IPPA really disband or fail?

To funny even dodge ball and RC boating and others have governing bodies but not PB.

[Chronobreak]

who says we need a non partial governing body? Just make all the tourneys all mechanical, non trigger-assist guns.(IE: TRUE semi) If you think your so good, what difference is the gun or the ramping gonna do to your "ubermad skills"? No bounce, no sweet spotting, no electronics or faulty boards to blame a bad day of play on, just true semi and your fingers(assuming most of you still know how to use them after this crutch with a label of ramping came out).


well if i recall theyr were at one point standards on a legal trigger pull with a cap of around 13, a minimum trigger travel distance, trigger weight, etc etc...

i dont recall those standards or who suggested them(astm?) but i do know they were never aheard to.

heck my bushy board was even semi cheating then with its 13.6 board :rolleyes:



Well its all about the politics in the Game.

First off ask yourself this. WHY after twenty years DONT we have a real governing body?
Why did the IPPA really disband or fail?

To funny even dodge ball and RC boating and others have governing bodies but not PB.

thats why i started this thread to get a good answer.

a new league using and enforcing TRUE semi(Not necesarily mech) but TRUE semi, as in no debounce modes or fancy shot buffering with a limit of 13-15 it would bea good start.

also ENFORCING the rules is a good start with harsh penalties.

[kevdupuis]

also ENFORCING the rules is a good start with harsh penalties.

Starting with wallet. Just look at other sports and the monitary penalties they hand out. After getting hit with fines, individuals, teams and companies would be more inclined to try and follow the rules although you'll still get some who keep pushing, only it'd be more expensive for them to push.

[kruger]

I dont think that you guys "get it". The tourneys are not for the players. The tourneys are for the manufacturers. That is obvious to even the most casual of observers. Why would the manufacturers limit their sales? They wouldn't. The tourneys are all big sales pitches, thats it. There will be no governing body as long as the paintball manufacturers are footing the bill. It is not in their best interest. Super-Uber guns, flashy colorful clothes, boards, drops, barrels, triggers are the masters of the tournement scene. Right now there is no interest from the non-paintball community to involve itself in this "sport". And, they wont because all they see is a bunch of kids playing a game, and cheating to win. Do you think that Chevy, AOL or Hewlett Packard want their name assoicated with a group of arrogant thugs who claim to be professional sportsmen and have to cheat to win? Wake up, it aint gonna happen. Nothing is going to change until the players take control of themselves and their teams and start playing like it is a real sport, and not like its some big brawl. And Smart Parts and all the others really dont want the game cleaned up. Again, not in their best interest. If they were really concerned with the way that the game is played, then they could, and would do something about it. But, as you can see, nothing is being done. Pretty obvious to me, and it should be to you too.

[Chronobreak]

as you can see, nothing is being done. Pretty obvious to me, and it should be to you too.


that is obvious, but my question is basicly if players want such organization what do they have to do or what would be required to make such a thing happen.

players acting more responsible and as better role models fort he sport would help.(which we dont seem to have any today)

how would an organization make $ off of enforcing these rules and not be influenced by biz?
how did the ippa make its $? they say they have ideas but i dont hear anything or see anything...

perhaps a final format for the sport should be chosen(at pro level atleast)
maybe age devisions instead of pro/am/novice

mainly looking for suggestions i guess not a why are we here and who is to blame, but where to go from here

[Aggravated Assault]

Right now there is no interest from the non-paintball community to involve itself in this "sport". And, they wont because all they see is a bunch of kids playing a game, and cheating to win. Do you think that Chevy, AOL or Hewlett Packard want their name assoicated with a group of arrogant thugs who claim to be professional sportsmen and have to cheat to win?


OMG this is truth. Not too long ago the editor of a major p-ball mag went on the record and said that wiping and playing on isn't cheating and "we" need to get over it. Cheater boards are in use - I guess we need to get over that too. Bad Additudes and Foul mouthed ranting from players must not be common tho, he didn't address that.... :tard:

No wonder any big company wants to touch paintball. This is the reason paintball isn't getting over the hump.

Paintball should take a hint from NA$CAR and draw a line in the sand, but they prolly wont, and for the reasons brought up in the previous post.

It's sad, because it could be done, it would just need a leauge stepping on almost everyones toes to do it. But, in years to come, the sport of paintball would be better for it i'm sure.

[Aggravated Assault]

I'll attack this question from the viewpoint: What would it take to make a superior leauge as the standard, not necessarily a blanket body over all. A solid leauge, able to put out a superior product, market it and make it enjoyable for non-players to watch. This would be the path to secure top sponsors and grow. I believe eventually this would have a trickle down effect to align smaller series w/ rules and format.

Before anything starts in creating this "leauge" there would have to be some consensus (sp?) on a few things. ROF would be a good place to start. True semi? uncapped/Capped? Ramping? Come to an agreement.

Take a page from ASA (American speed Assoc.) They can pretty much run whatever car they like but the engine must be a crate motor for that brand. No modifications for the most part......Ok paintball now: Take whatever marker you want, but the marker (assume electro for now) must shoot only in the mode that is legal for the leauge. One way for this to be enforced by the leauge is they supply the board for use. Thats it. Cannot use anything else.

How to actually implement it might differ, but something similar is the only way I see it to address one of the problems - Cheating thru a players equipment/marker.



/to be continued....

[SlartyBartFast]

First off ask yourself this. WHY after twenty years DONT we have a real governing body?
Why did the IPPA really disband or fail?

Simple. Money.

After an organisation reaches a certain size, it can't operate on goodwill and volunteers alone. It requires full-time commitment.

So, the organisation itself has to generate enough money to be self-supporting.

Think NASCAR,NBA, NFL, NHL, MLB work because all the owners love each other and WANT to get along nicely? No.

They work because if push came to shove, no team, player, official, or (minor) sponsor is indispensable.

NASCAR (or F1) can tell manufacturers which parts are leagal and what they're allowed to compete with because the real money is from the fan base and television rights. The manufacturers want to compete for access to the fans, not like paintball where it's the other way around and the series and organisations rely on the manufacturers and teams for their livelyhood.

[Chronobreak]

slartly, but how do we switch it around or attempt to move away from that?

as long as players (knowingly or un) are supporting the current system it doesnt seems like there is any hope at all for change.

[kruger]

Chrono, you bring up a point that I was trying to allude to previously. As long as the players play without honor, there can be no change. As long as the players play in a system owned and driven by sales, there can be no change. The status is balanced right now. Companies are happy and the players aint complaining. Why change? I do understand the need for change, its just that I dont think that is going to happen with things the way that they are right now. The players must force the change. I am not talking about a few threads on some forum some where, I am talking about the players that matter (at least to the companys) and that is the Pro teams and all their little followers. There is a lot of money in the Pros fan base and that is the only thing that the companies understand.............money.

[Aggravated Assault]

another major problem is cheating by wiping,playing on, etc. Paintball has a lot of issues here. and a lot of opinions. If I were to be the one selling paintball as a product to the non-playing public, I think there would be a need to have rules in place that gives the sport a better image in rules enforcement. So what does that mean?

People are going to play on by acccident and on purpose. Just like other sports, is it a "foul"? A minor or major penality? Everyone seems to have different ideas here..

Wiping is another matter. It happens. Should this be treated the same or so harshly no one would want to even think about it?

Therin lies the problem, there are different camps that want to treat these issues differently. What would have to be figured out is: To make a product the (Non-playing) PUBLIC would be interested in, making the difference between "cheating" and a "foul" is very important. What we tolerate, what we penalize and what we do not allow at all.

Then how would the sport be percieved by the choces made?

[hitech]

To make a product the (Non-playing) PUBLIC would be interested in...

That is the problem. I don't think you are going to get those people interested.

[Jeffy-CanCon]

That is the problem. I don't think you are going to get those people interested.

Correct. Not without a real paradigm change. Paintball in its current form is profitable because the players spend small fortunes on gear and paint. But what the spectators generally see is a game that is loud, short and painfully slow. There is almost no movement in speedball beyond the break, and the end-game. Firepower forces a much more cautious and defensive style than was seen in the early days of competitive paintball. If you want to encourage people to watch the game, you have to make it a longer event, and with more visually-exciting movement that spectators can follow. X-Ball is halfway there, as I understand it.

[Aggravated Assault]

That is the problem. I don't think you are going to get those people interested.


That just might be the truth, but nevertheless, that would have to be the goal of any sucessfull "leauge." Determine somehow what would have to change to make it more accessable and enjoyable to the public. One could determine thats its near-impossible, but lets say not.

A major issue, possibly the biggest, is how we are presenting ourselves as a community and a group. Any Leauge setting out to conquer the world, or to at least try, needs a code of accepted conduct, before, during and after the games. And woe be to anyone who crosses that line. no exceptions.

Our most high profile events are quite possibly the major tournaments, NPPL, PSP. Maybe some big games or big scenario, but I think most would agree the Major Tourneys. This is where I think as a whole we have fallen on our faces. I have been to several events over the years and from my own experience, things aren't really that much different than what I saw at my first in 97' or 98'. Bad attitudes, grown ups acting like a bunch of babies, cheating, fighting, playing on, yelling at the refs, wiping, foul language, bonus balls, no sportsmanship, you name it. Somebody try and say this dosen't go on today.

There would have to be a zero tolerence policy on all that behavior. You shoot someone from the deadbox (on national tv) you are thrown out (X) number of games. Abuse a ref in any way - gone. Ranting, raving and/or cussing and making a scene - sit down for a few games. Fighting? suspended. (insert very bad behavior here) = thrown out of tourney or series. And go from there..

The inmates have run the asylum for too long and look where its got us.

[hitech]

The inmates have run the asylum for too long...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:hail:

[Aggravated Assault]

Other areas that would need some thought: Reffing. Making the game fair for all teams. I know paintball has had problems here. On the major circut nowadays - I have no Idea if it's better or not. Haven't seen enough lately. What I think I do know is, theres still a perception that the Judging is usually sub-par. Whether this is thru incopetence, Bias, or what, I'm thinking that it still exists or at least is perceived to. Heck it's talked about in the mags and players are always complaing...Wait a minute, Players are always doing that. Strtike that one :D

I think it's on the right track with some of the leauges using referees who are just that: referees. There needs to ba good system of training and certification that is accepted as the best. A good system where you, as a ref work your way up thru smaller events and/or divisions to get the needed experience. While I don't have first hand knowledge of how, say the PSP handles reffing and if they are going a good job or not, that seems similar to a system I have wanted to see for years.

Anyway, for any leauge to be legit, the Juges or Referees who enforce the game rules on the field need to be seen as fair and unbiased, competent in their training, above and apart from any drama with the games and teams, and professional in their manner on and off the field. Are we there yet?

[RRfireblade]

Paintball is run by paintball distributors for the sole reason of making themselves more money.

The fees are steep , the payback is laughable.....but....there is no alternative so your stuck.

You'd have to steal the whole shibang out from under them.



A new governing body would have to take the Tourny scene by storm and at the same time , be able to support itself (at least at first) , offer extremely enticing Tourny prizes/Money and make it seem like if you have a Team THIS is where you need to be playing.

You'd have to pick up enough Pro teams right off the bat that the others would follow like sheep. Then....if sponsers and other finacial supporters start to fall inline , you would have the chance to make changes that stick and force manufacturers and distibutors to comply.

It's a tall task that very few if any , are willing to take on.

[Aggravated Assault]

You'd have to steal the whole shibang out from under them.

A new governing body would have to take the Tourny scene by storm and at the same time, be able to support itself (at least at first) , offer extremely enticing Tourny prizes/Money and make it seem like if you have a Team THIS is where you need to be playing.


Exactly. But I'll backtrack one extra step. The things I threw out in earlier posts were leading up to a similar conclusion. I wanted to establish that, before anything could get out of the "good idea" stage and to the planning stage, those main issues would have to be addressed. Addressed in ways to make the game better from a fan and a players view.

Ok, now everybody imagine we have this killer plan and outline for the BEST, I mean BEST leauge EVEEERRRR!!!!! :headbang:


About 25 seconds after that we would hit THE big wall. I feel its bigger than the one fireblade brought up. Even with the best of everything, would this sport of paintball, that we all love, interest enough of the non playing public to: Attend tournaments, watch it on tv, buy licensed products, support/buy from sponsors & advertisers, etc, etc. Can we make some kind of brand identity? Get people to actually follow and support teams?
Oh, and do this in a way that it could support itself and not beholden to industry giants; Who, based on their own interests or bottom line, may want to go in different directions in detrement to real progress.

That is the real question. No matter how hard we try, IS it possible to package this game into a product someone will buy? Capitalism 101.

Do we have a product that anybody wants to buy.....?

[SlartyBartFast]

No matter how hard we try, IS it possible to package this game into a product someone will buy?

and why does it have to be packaged as a product someone will buy? There are dozens of national and international sports and activities with little or no interest from outside the participants and organising bodies.

It's just greedy paintballers who think that their hobby has a manifest destiny to become professional and pay out thousands of dollars eacha nd every tournament.

As long as paintballers are greedy and idolize cheating and a "win at all costs" attitude along with refusing to put good organisation and reffing behind thier decision to participate in a tournament, paintball is unlikely to evolve.

[Lohman446]

and why does it have to be packaged as a product someone will buy? There are dozens of national and international sports and activities with little or no interest from outside the participants and organising bodies.

It's just greedy paintballers who think that their hobby has a manifest destiny to become professional and pay out thousands of dollars eacha nd every tournament.

As long as paintballers are greedy and idolize cheating and a "win at all costs" attitude along with refusing to put good organisation and reffinf behind thier decision to participate in a tournament, paintball is unlikely to evolve.

Simply QFT. Paintball would be better today if the concept of TV had never been discussed. At least in my opinion

[hitech]

Even with the best of everything, would this sport of paintball, that we all love, interest enough of the non playing public to: Attend tournaments, watch it on tv, buy licensed products, support/buy from sponsors & advertisers, etc, etc. Can we make some kind of brand identity? Get people to actually follow and support teams?

Nope. As I said eariler, THAT is the problem...

[coreyander]

Im sorry....I just had to laugh a little at the thread. :D

nice, but I doubt it would ever happen.

[kruger]

Mr. Coreyander, If you have not recognized it yet, we do know that this is all just an exercise of ideas, debating for the sake of it. We all know that anything that we decide has no real effect on anything other than the way we treat each other, here in this forum. But I do find it curious as to what made you laugh......mind tossing in your point of view? Or does the idea of a paintball league that doesnt cheat, and players that have honor, sponsors that dont have a damn thing to do with paintball what made you chuckle

[coreyander]

Mr. Coreyander, If you have not recognized it yet, we do know that this is all just an exercise of ideas, debating for the sake of it. We all know that anything that we decide has no real effect on anything other than the way we treat each other, here in this forum. But I do find it curious as to what made you laugh......mind tossing in your point of view? Or does the idea of a paintball league that doesnt cheat, and players that have honor, sponsors that dont have a damn thing to do with paintball what made you chuckle


I know its ideas. I chuckled not because ppl giving their ideas, but to me whats funny is just by reading it seems as if a lot of ppl here are on some kind of crusade to change the sport of paintball.

Im not laughing about any league, but how seriously some ppl take thier ideas. I guess to me whats funny is the way its approached analytically by ppl. It is, remember, debating for the sake of it.......and I guess ultimately that is what is funny. Its comes across as senseless meanderings that have no effect on or anything to do w/ the paintball scene.

please......dont take it the wrong way. Everyone has a different sense of humor. I am just humored by the "analysis" of paintball. Its a game of tag w/ paint filled gelatin sacks. Hmmmm. To each his own I suppose.

I guess also kinda whats funny is the way the questions are posted......somewhat rhetorical. But.....I guess it makes for some fun reading.

[Chronobreak]

well to some people its more than a sport.

i wish i could go back to just playing and being unaware of the politics of paintball. but once you start to notice them and hear about things going on its a friggin mess to say the least.

ive been playing long enough to see the changes in the sport gradually over the eyars.

and to say "cheating has always been,is part, and will always be part of the sport" is blatant ignorance and acceptance of the forementioned mindset.

i guess i just wish more people would play for fun and respect, and not the win win win at all cost mentality in rec/competitive ball.

im not ona crusade to save the sport, im not even gonna bother trying, but atleast if i keep playing there is 1 person on the field that isnt cheating.

i wanted to see what others here think is the reason so many have failed and left us with the manufacturers running the sport.

[coreyander]

well to some people its more than a sport.

i wish i could go back to just playing and being unaware of the politics of paintball. but once you start to notice them and hear about things going on its a friggin mess to say the least.

ive been playing long enough to see the changes in the sport gradually over the eyars.

and to say "cheating has always been,is part, and will always be part of the sport" is blatant ignorance and acceptance of the forementioned mindset.

i guess i just wish more people would play for fun and respect, and not the win win win at all cost mentality in rec/competitive ball.

im not ona crusade to save the sport, im not even gonna bother trying, but atleast if i keep playing there is 1 person on the field that isnt cheating.

i wanted to see what others here think is the reason so many have failed and left us with the manufacturers running the sport.

ive never said cheating has always been a part of the game or always will be, but it happens. In another thread ive also said ppl cheat at everything. Its not just paintball. In almost every facet of life, there are cheaters....school, sports, work, politics, traffic......the list can go on and on. All you can really do about it is do what you were taught to be right and lead by example. Putting your opinions on a banner is not really going to make you look like the "good guy" that doesnt cheat.

Anyway, I am glad that you stand up for what you believe in

[Lohman446]

Corey, most of us realize the small amount (notice I did not say none) of impact we can have. We have these discussions as much for an intellectual exercise as anything else. My recommendation to you, get used to it, its what we do on AO, and if you watch we have a six month cycle of having the same discussions again. Becoming a nuisance to, and a hinderance to these dicussions, is not a good thing around here. Participate in them, but do not ridicule them.

And I mean that nicely

[Chronobreak]

lol i diddnt even notice he was a new member, and was wondering why he was posting as he did.

i think this topic alone has been discussed but somethings have changed such as possible declining of nppl. there has been drop in nppl attendances around the area last i heard, and many players being upset with various aspects of the way they are ran.

[coreyander]

Im just not used to seeing ppl worry about things and debate so much. Didnt know it was THAT important to you guys.

cheers. :cheers:

[kruger]

It is important to some, but it is mostly a pastime. There are not that many interesting things in paintball. This marker, that marker, they are all basically the same. The thing, it seems here, it the debate itself. It could just as easily be plasma TVs, if this were that kind of forum. Anyway, welcome and feel free to contribute.

[Aggravated Assault]

Looking back at my last post, I think I should have phrased it "Do we have a product that anybody wants to buy...and if not, why not? In the imaginary leauge I was refering to we have everything fixed.

That's what I'm wondering. Is it the game itself or the way we present it?


and why does it have to be packaged as a product someone will buy? There are dozens of national and international sports and activities with little or no interest from outside the participants and organising bodies.


I dig what you're sayin here (and don't necessarily dissagree). But, the way I am thinking in my hypothetical, this said it best:

A new governing body would have to take the Tourny scene by storm and at the same time , be able to support itself (at least at first) , offer extremely enticing Tourny prizes/Money and make it seem like if you have a Team THIS is where you need to be playing..

I believe one way is to "sell" the sport. How much product would need to be sold is the other end.... I'll add something here: lets say Non-tournament playing public. There's a lot of that public that has played once or twice, plays rec/woods occasionally, and then hardcore rec/scenario. Reports say over 10 million played in 2005. Not shabby.How many in the last five years?

Go back to first question. "Do we have a product that [Non-tournament playing public] wants to buy...and if not, why not?"

[RRfireblade]

Go back to first question. "Do we have a product that [Non-tournament playing public] wants to buy...and if not, why not?"


No , same reason your average field can't make a buck or even stay in business....


It's a sport most feel they can play anywhere , anytime for free.

[Aggravated Assault]

I can play basketball anywhere and anytime for free. Yet, I still watch it on TV. Sometimes even buy licensed stuff.

Once in a great while I even go to a game.


I'm not sure this is the biggest hurdle. Maybe to the local field trying to survive it's a big problem nowadays - but I would think it would be a minor one at best in the context of a Leauge or governing body.

[RRfireblade]

But..... how much would you pay to play at a local court ?


You asked if the sport was a viable product , right now it's not.

No one but paintball players care to watch it on TV and besides that it doesn't do 'TV' well at all. Even if your a Speed/X ball player you can't tell a dang thing on TV. The commentators and on screen graphics while neat and gimmiky don't actually help at all unless you just like to have the announcers tell you what just happend a few seconds ago. :) You can't see the paint , you can't see whos getting shot at , you can't tell who been shot.

Add to that that the vast majority of paintball players are rogue woodsballers who happen to think speedball is a stupid waste of paint and thier guns are a rediculous waste of money.

'Bout sum it up ? :D

[coreyander]

I think that most of you are discussing your view of paitnball from how it is where you live. Around here DFW, paintball is not just hardcore woodsballers. The tourney scene is alive and well.

As a matter of fact our local field that used to be strictly woods and rec is putting up 4 airball fields running at all times...nightball and friggen stadium lights.

[RRfireblade]

I think that most of you are discussing your view of paitnball from how it is where you live. Around here DFW, paintball is not just hardcore woodsballers. The tourney scene is alive and well.

As a matter of fact our local field that used to be strictly woods and rec is putting up 4 airball fields running at all times...nightball and friggen stadium lights.

Dude , we have World Cup here. :) And some of the hardest core ballers considering Pro teams come here all the time 'cause of the good practice weather year round.

I'm talking about national statistics that are a matter of fact.

[Aggravated Assault]

You asked if the sport was a viable product , right now it's not.

No one but paintball players care to watch it on TV and besides that it doesn't do 'TV' well at all. Even if your a Speed/X ball player you can't tell a dang thing on TV. The commentators and on screen graphics while neat and gimmiky don't actually help at all unless you just like to have the announcers tell you what just happend a few seconds ago. :) You can't see the paint , you can't see whos getting shot at , you can't tell who been shot.

Ok, thats a fair observation. Since it may not be not a good product for the fact that it dosen't translate to good tv, the alternative is make it into one or conclude that It will always struggle when put on tv.

Myself I have always wondered how to overcome what you just said: can't see the paint, who's getting shot, etc. This is way out in left field, but didn't someone try and make glowing paintballs once?



Add to that that the vast majority of paintball players are rogue woodsballers who happen to think speedball is a stupid waste of paint and thier guns are a rediculous waste of money.

'Bout sum it up ? :D

I just can't agree with that statement. Some may think along those lines, but I would guess a majority are at least a little intrigued by tournament ball, the equipment and such. There's no doubt some fine athletetes too, I think there's respect for that also.

But, lets run with your quote. I would take it to mean the actual format just isn't appealing to the avarage player. What could be done with that, short of comming up with a new game format?

[SlartyBartFast]

Go back to first question. "Do we have a product that [Non-tournament playing public] wants to buy...and if not, why not?"

It may be your first question. But it's the WRONG question.

Which came first? Profesional baseball and basketball or grassroots organisations and minor leagues?

If minor leagues lost interest and participation, where would professional sports end up?

Pathetically, players who are even less talented in paintball than a highschool or even pick-up team (heck, 99% of paintball "teams" are no more than friends playing regular pick-up games) in many mainstream sports are already whining about lack of sponsorship and support in TINY local markets.

How much help and sponsorship do kids get to make their way through little league? NONE!

But every wanna-bee paintball player with matching clothing goes on as if it's their God-given manifest destiny to play their game for free and that every trounamenet MUST have tens of thousands of dollars in prizes.

Then, people want TV coverage and "profesional" status. But, look at the rosters of the "profesional" series. What percentage is simply whomever can simply afford to pay entry?

Many of the dreamers who feel that paintball is entitled to the same place in fame as the likes of Xgames sports ignore the realities of those very sports. Paintball can't hold a candle to the level of organisation and devotion at the LOWER LEVELS as those other sports. Nor do the dreamers want to put in the time and effort that those sports put in to become what they are at the highest levels.

Think about all that for a while, and the answer as to why paintball is not fit for the "big time" will be VERY clear.

[Lohman446]

I heard this discussion somewhere else, and perhaps can add something.

Why does hockey not translate to TV well, and basketball not as well as football or baseball.

In football and baseball there are "programmed" in breaks in the action, where the commentators can help those watching who don't "know" the game to understand it and be excited about it. Even Nascar is about hours of boredom for seconds of excitement.

There are no such breaks in paintball, and we have seen from experience that generally, sports without it do not fair well on television.

[SlartyBartFast]

I'm not sure this is the biggest hurdle. Maybe to the local field trying to survive it's a big problem nowadays - but I would think it would be a minor one at best in the context of a Leauge or governing body.

:rofl:
Without fields, how can you have leagues? :rolleyes:

The reason you can play baseball, football, soccer, tennis and other sports for "free" is because the tax dollars of everyone in your community build and maintain the fields and courts.

Leagues that play on non-public fields, depend HEAVILY on the profitability of the field as a business. For example, an indoor soccer field charges 250$ and hour for use of the field. Leagues have to pay that to continue to exist. If the business folds, there's no more venue for indoor soccer.

As a competitive golfer how healthy the sport would be if private golf courses couldn't turn a profit (or otherwise generate enough revenue) and stay open.

[SlartyBartFast]

Why does hockey not translate to TV well, and basketball not as well as football or baseball.

Hockey has nothing to do with it. It's the American audience that needed the glowing puck. Does fine up here. Baseball has a tiny draw on TV here.


There are no such breaks in paintball, and we have seen from experience that generally, sports without it do not fair well on television.

Each of the other games you mentioned has INFINITELY more time between breaks than the length of an entire speedball game.

Trying to discuss the presentability of paintball on TV is putting the cart before the horse.

You need to build the product, then audience before you'll earn your place on TV.

[Aggravated Assault]

Oh, where to start :D

This is as good as anyplace....



It may be your first question. But it's the WRONG question.

Which came first? Profesional baseball and basketball or grassroots organisations and minor leagues?

If minor leagues lost interest and participation, where would professional sports end up?





OK, bingo, you get the prize. I am not trying to imply paintball HAS to be a certain way - I want to look at the WHY of what is our problem. And I think there are a lot of whys. To make any "Non partial governing body" we got to examine our failings.

I think there IS too much of the "god given Right" to sponsorship, big dollars, etc. But that didn't just happen overnight.



/to be continued...

[Aggravated Assault]

But every wanna-bee paintball player with matching clothing goes on as if it's their God-given manifest destiny to play their game for free and that every trounamenet MUST have tens of thousands of dollars in prizes.



Part of that is what the sport in general has put up with, allowed and even encouraged, the average young tourney player to act.



It's just greedy paintballers who think that their hobby has a manifest destiny to become professional and pay out thousands of dollars eacha nd every tournament.

I hate the term "greedy". It's thrown aroud nearly as much as the term "nazi". What's greedy about wanting to win some prize money if you think you got the skills? Jeez, my father-in-law shoots darts and goes to tourneys. Is that greedy in your logic? Players spend a lot of their money (or their parents money :D ) on gear and equipment compared to some sports. Not to mention other costs. Not all tourneys, or many I woud say, pay out tens of thousands of dollars - and the ones that do usually have huge entry fees vs. potential payoff.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the idea of paintball marketing itself in a way to attract people, by whatever means are good for the sport.



How much help and sponsorship do kids get to make their way through little league? NONE!

Wrong. I'll tell, you as a buisness owner, in this neck of the woods our youth baseball wouldn't do crap w/o the help of the buisnesses sponsoring the leauge. You'll see their signs and banners in the outfield when you come to our diamond. You'll see them on the uniforms. We put up the fencing. Repair the fields. Buy needed equipment. Supply labor.

Whats different about wanting competitive paintball to be well sponsored, on whatever level.


Anyway, I'm not sure what you are getting at besides competitive paintball should throw in the towel.

Not a rip, just an observation. :)

[Chronobreak]

so what its coming down to thus far..

what is the goal of paintball?

or is the lack of a common or desired one the problem?
(most people seem to be fine or more than fine with the current status)


there is defienetely room for competive paintball,...alot of people like to be good at things and get rewards for doing so. but yes i agree unles your EXCEPTIONALY good you shouldnt get great rewards for mediorce accomplishments.

$$ rewards and prizes cost $$ and fields generaly dont clear much on a tournament for the most part.

and sponsors have to want to be attached to the "product" or "game" of paintball to associate

[Aggravated Assault]

I think the best thing as a goal for paintball would be a dominant governing body for competitave paintball, encompassing leauges w/ several different (skill) levels of play, divided buy local, regional and national levels.

I think racing is a good comparson again. There is racing under many divisions at the more local level, you have bigger regional events and "championship" events and touring national series. Points system on both local, regional, and national.





$$ rewards and prizes cost $$ and fields generaly dont clear much on a tournament for the most part.

A lot of the tourneys I see at the more local level dont have a ton of prizes. I also feel if a place puts on a good cheap tourney for trophys, people will play. I've seen it. I don't really buy into the line of thinking there has to be tons of goodies no matter what for a team to even show up.

[Aggravated Assault]

well, even tho this thread fizzled, I guess I'll finish my thoughts anyway.


The thread was HOW to make a NPGB in paintabll today. Of course to do that there has to be goals set and problems solved. Still at the end of the day you have to implement them. What factors would be pushing against implementing them? That's where I was really hoping the discussion would go. Actually, other threads had some posts very revelant to this very question.

heres one...
http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=204936

Face it, as much as someone might want paintball to go back to the old days when it wasn't as mainstream, still below almost everyones radar, it can't. The notion of a pure grassroots ippa kind of players for players association is possibly unrealistic now. It's a multi-multi-million dollar industry with millions of players. It's on TV like it or not. How do you put the cat back in the bag? I don't think you can.

If a fledgling NPGB for paintball were to have any chance to thrive or even survive, I think it would have to fight fire with fire. By being able to somehow package and promote paintball better, potentially the sponsor support would be better. Then implement change.

How bout' the possibility of a grassroots organization forming today? How would it garner support from the players and industry of today?

Or are we just stuck with our "pros" shooting the other team from the deadbox.... :(

[RRfireblade]

In a nut shell , someone just has to step up and do it.

This is not directed at anyone inparticular BUT more and more often (AO especially) we are inundated with a TON of " This sucks " and " That sucks " and "Someone needs to... " and "Someone should..."

Well yeah , sure.

I'm feelin' ya.

So do it. Sounds simple cause it is , but the biggest moaners and whiners never step up and do a dang thing. It's always 'our' problem but someone elses responsibility. If you collectively don't like the way something is Man up and start the ball rolling yourself.

It's really that simple.

I'm pretty into pump play right now , a few years ago I got together with some other people feeling the same way. We went to a local feild , talked the owner into giving a pump thing a shot , put the word out and got a pretty wide spread and diverse group together and set up our first FPC (Florida Pump Chumps) pump meet. We spoke with manufacturers and got donations and prizes to give away. Some of it came from other players. It started out with like 5-6 people and now we regularly bring in 30 plus almost every month we do it. I didn't know more than 1 or 2 of those people at the start and now our group ranges from Miami to Georgia. If we wanted to take it farther , I'm sure we could but for right now it a good thing as it is. Who knows in the future.

I realize that is on a much smaller scale than some of the issues people are having in other areas but the idea and theory is the same. Someone has to take the intiative and just do it , what ever it takes.

Or not. :)

[d4m4don3]

Check these guys out. This tournament pretty much rules out the rt valve, but a classic mag would be pretty dangerous here.
They stepped up and got rid of a lot of the controversial tech that people are whining about. If they had that here in California I'd participate.
http://www.limitedtech.com/