Ramping...

[mobsterboy]

Is it really a help? Cuz I see it as a HANDICAP. Its like when the old people are at Walmart, they use the scootercarts to get around. Well ramping is like that, its basically saying I suck at paintball and need something to bump my game up to the level of others.

What are your thoughts about it? Im not asking you to quote rules or say how much its improved the game, im talking about your individual skill. Has it helped or hindered you? If you picked up a true semi gun, would you just suck major now that your accustomed to ramping...

[flyingpootang]

Ramp dosen't make someone better, but it makes your hit probablity go up.

[minimag86]

I personally don't preticularly care so long as they let me use my rt trigger on my mag......

[Piranti]

want to increase your chances of hitting someone? Play pump only for 6 months :ninja:

[11 Bravo]

Ramping isnt that big a deal. If you have a well adjusted trigger its pretty easy to get up there in a high bps range on semi. Other words I dont think it takes alot of skill to shoot fast these days on semi.

[kruger]

I tend to look at paintball a little differently. I play woods/scenario ball. I look at it as a goal orientated sport. To acheive the goal, you MAY have to shoot. The marker is just one means to acheive the objective. Granted, you have to use it a lot of times, but not always. And, it is fun as heck to sling paint at the little speed bumps between you and your objective. :ninja: So, I look at ramping as a more effective tool availible. Personaly, I dont use ramping, but I have the ability. I find that I do tend to need more paint than I can carry when I have used ramping. So, ramping does have its place, as supressive fire so your buddy can make a move without being seen. The same can be said for any jump in manufactured ability. Example: The automatic transmission for the automobile. There are some that will say that if you use an automatic, you are not driving the car, but riding in it. Manual users say that they are in more control, more connected. It is really a matter of preference as far as I am concerned. Like I said, I dont use ramping, but at my field, we allow it, up to 15 bps. We do tend to discourage anything over that tho. Are rampers more effective? I say not. But, I dont know everything, so I just keep playing in semi, and try to keep my eye on the goal.

[Lohman446]

Ramping, used well, helps.

[grEnAlEins]

If you picked up a true semi gun, would you just suck major now that your accustomed to ramping...
I am not accustomed to ramping though :p Seriously though, I have found that I am used to the electro pull, so going mech is tougher, but I still do it frequently.

[mobsterboy]

I tend to look at paintball a little differently. I play woods/scenario ball. I look at it as a goal orientated sport. To acheive the goal, you MAY have to shoot. The marker is just one means to acheive the objective. Granted, you have to use it a lot of times, but not always. And, it is fun as heck to sling paint at the little speed bumps between you and your objective. :ninja: So, I look at ramping as a more effective tool availible. Personaly, I dont use ramping, but I have the ability. I find that I do tend to need more paint than I can carry when I have used ramping. So, ramping does have its place, as supressive fire so your buddy can make a move without being seen. The same can be said for any jump in manufactured ability. Example: The automatic transmission for the automobile. There are some that will say that if you use an automatic, you are not driving the car, but riding in it. Manual users say that they are in more control, more connected. It is really a matter of preference as far as I am concerned. Like I said, I dont use ramping, but at my field, we allow it, up to 15 bps. We do tend to discourage anything over that tho. Are rampers more effective? I say not. But, I dont know everything, so I just keep playing in semi, and try to keep my eye on the goal.

Terrible analogy. This is a sport we're talking about, not a useful object in everyday life. Now if you wanted to argue that automatic in racing as a handicap, then yes, because those guys are so accustomed to the sound of their engines that they know when to shift in order to get the most out of their engine. Not the same at all. We're talking something that used to be a well-sought after ability that now everyone has because of ramping, and its ruining the sport because there is no real responsibility to such great power that has been given. Before, you pretty much earned your power and knew the responsibilities when you played and practiced walking. You saw that it was something that needed work to make perfect and you stood out of the crowd because of it.
And seriously, if you think thats a good analogy, rethink the context. Think more of something like a mounted motorized fishing reel after 3 pulls if you keep it at 3 pulls. Is fishing still fun after somethign like that would come out?



Ramping, used well, helps.
Helps what? It sure doesnt help your accuracy, because thats a kill factor over total shots taken, and im thinking most speedballers are at like .01%. Helps your ego? Yeah, but most peoples ego's are already so ridiculously huge that they dont need that help. Helps your game? Why? What was wrong with your game to start with? lt certainly doesnt help your skill increase, because it is not relying on accuracy or movement. So what does it help? One things for sure, it has helped destroy a perfectly good sport to the point where we have great players quitting because of the environment paintball has today. Hostility, meanness, uninviting players with no morals that will push the limits any chance they get, and cheating, if anyone wants me to make correlations between any of these that i just listed and ramping being the cause, just let me know. I only see it really helping and benefitting the paintball manufacturing companies. No one else.

[Lohman446]

Helps what? It sure doesnt help your accuracy, because thats a kill factor over total shots taken, and im thinking most speedballers are at like .01%. Helps your ego? Yeah, but most peoples ego's are already so ridiculously huge that they dont need that help. Helps your game? Why? What was wrong with your game to start with? lt certainly doesnt help your skill increase, because it is not relying on accuracy or movement. So what does it help? One things for sure, it has helped destroy a perfectly good sport to the point where we have great players quitting because of the environment paintball has today. Hostility, meanness, uninviting players with no morals that will push the limits any chance they get, and cheating, if anyone wants me to make correlations between any of these that i just listed and ramping being the cause, just let me know. I only see it really helping and benefitting the paintball manufacturing companies. No one else.


Used properly - I have used ramping to allow me to make moves I would nto have made in semi :)

[BigEvil]

Playing against others who are using ramping is no fun. :cry: When the playing field is even, I have no problems. I just hate getting picked on by the refs "ugh, could you slow that thing down". They must not notice the half a case of paint im wearing on my jersey at the time. :)

Ramping is a definate help at times - like when that guy behind the dorito keeps sticking his head out at regular intervals... :shooting:

[FromTheBack]

Helps what? It sure doesnt help your accuracy, because thats a kill factor over total shots taken, and im thinking most speedballers are at like .01%. Helps your ego? Yeah, but most peoples ego's are already so ridiculously huge that they dont need that help. Helps your game? Why? What was wrong with your game to start with? lt certainly doesnt help your skill increase, because it is not relying on accuracy or movement. So what does it help? One things for sure, it has helped destroy a perfectly good sport to the point where we have great players quitting because of the environment paintball has today. Hostility, meanness, uninviting players with no morals that will push the limits any chance they get, and cheating, if anyone wants me to make correlations between any of these that i just listed and ramping being the cause, just let me know. I only see it really helping and benefitting the paintball manufacturing companies. No one else.


In my experience it makes the game more aggressive. This is because it gives the running player confidence that while he is running and gunning his bps doesn't get cut down from the faster speed you have while being stationary at the bunker. With ramping you have that steady bps to shoot someone in with while you bump. Personally I think this has made me a more aggressive player as far as my confidence with making more aggressive moves. You could argue that you wouldnt be as confident playing semi after ramping but from what I have noticed in myself while playing is that that the confidence sticks. I've also noticed that some teams who normally play with ramping and that play in Semi tournaments do better in those semi tournaments (of course having their guns on semi) because of their aggressive style. If you've seen differently please do tell but this is the main skill improvement to me when coming from ramping to semi.
And please, try not to be so pessimistic about where the sport is going, it is more exposed than ever and I'm pretty sure I still enjoy it along with many a player; you act like the world is ending. We live in a capitalistic society and ramping is profitable.

[slateman]

Its a help when laning and for back players. It allows a back player to reload without actually stopping his trigger finger or pulling down the gun

[kruger]

Mobsterboy: In the context of what I was trying to pass on, you definitly missed it. The point that I was trying to make was "change". Things will always change, they always will. Humans naturaly oppose change, as you have proven in your post. Also, I am speaking from a woodsball point of view. I dont have speedball at my field. Don't own any Sup'Air bunkers. Do you know why? Because of the attitude that the speedballers have. Arrogance and agressiviness do have their place on a paintball field, but not as a way of life. Do you actually think that ramping is what gave the speedballers their attitude?

The thing that I like about woodball is that there is a place for all kinds of personalities. Those that are aggresive get to do their thing and those that are passive get to do their thing. At my field, we play for the FUN of it. We dont have tourneys, we dont have rankings, we dont do that. This is a kids game that the grownups adopted for their own, to be kids again. If the players that you play with are not up to your standards, then find some place else to play. Or quit. Complaining about change does not stop the change. If there are certain parts of the game that you dont agree with, then dont associate with those parts. It really is very simple.

Oh, and have you ever been deep sea fishing? Guess what, they got motors on the reels, and Yea, its fun.

[RavishingEddie]

Can someone please help me here. I need to know what is the difference between Ramping and full auto?

[FromTheBack]

Mobsterboy: In the context of what I was trying to pass on, you definitly missed it. The point that I was trying to make was "change". Things will always change, they always will. Humans naturaly oppose change, as you have proven in your post. Also, I am speaking from a woodsball point of view. I dont allow speedball at my field. Down own any Sup'Air bunkers. Do you know why? Because of the attitude that the speedballers have. Arrogance and agressiviness do have their place on a paintball field, but not as a way of life. Do you actually think that ramping is what gave the speedballers their attitude?

The thing that I like about woodball is that there is a place for all kinds of personalities. Those that are aggresive get to do their thing and those that are passive get to do their thing. At my field, we play for the FUN of it. We dont have tourneys, we dont have rankings, we dont do that. This is a kids game that the grownups adopted for their own, to be kids again. If the players that you play with are not up to your standards, then find some place else to play. Or quit. Complaining about change does not stop the change. If there are certain parts of the game that you dont agree with, then dont associate with those parts. It really is very simple.

Oh, and have you ever been deep sea fishing? Guess what, they got motors on the reels, and Yea, its fun.

I think Kruger hit the nail on the head.

[FromTheBack]

Can someone please help me here. I need to know what is the difference between Ramping and full auto?

PSP Tournament style ramping has three trigger pulls and then consistant 15 balls per second as long as you keep the trigger pulling a minimum of 6 (I think) balls per second.

X-Ball Ramping is 2 pulls then you hold down the trigger for 15bps

Full Auto is simply pulling the trigger once, holding it down, and that is usually capped around 10 balls per second

[warbeak2099]

Ramping takes the emphasis off of who has the fastest fingers and puts it on who can think the fastest and make the best decisions. It puts more emphasis on strategy since it's much harder to move with a consistant 15bps flying through the air. I like it because now you actually have to use some brain cells to make a move. You also have to rely more on teamwork. Sorry, but controlled ramping is actually pretty good for the sport. Now uncapped ramping where people are shooting 20-30bps is retarded and dangerous.

[CKY_Alliance]

Can someone please help me here. I need to know what is the difference between Ramping and full auto?


Ramping is assisted shooting, the board is programmed to add shots..you still have to pull the trigger but you can pull 3 bps and shoot 15...full auto is full auto hold the trigger down and it rolls...ramping you still have to pull and release the trigger..and there are many different styles of ramping theres preset modes for different seires like psp, nxl (which is ramping that activates full auto) millenium, then you have percentage ramp..however fast you pull it will add a certian % of those shots to assist you and allow you to shoot faster, there is rebound which is one shot per pull and release..and umm ye..theres others but its all really the same..just assisted shooting.


It is beneficial..i can pull just as fast in semi if i choose(15 bps cap that is..) but ramping makes it a lot easier..running and gunning takes less work..you can shoot faster while reloading instead of just one balling..and if its legal why not use it..

[RRfireblade]

Ramping, used well, helps.


^^^ QFT

[RRfireblade]

Helps what?

Helps the 99.9% of the world who couldn't hit 15+ bps to save thier life , which without arguement increases the # of shots on target and therefore the potential for an Elimination , and Now they can do it ....

With on finger left or right handed ,


On the run off the break when not a single player in the world could get anywhere near close to 15 one handed and on the run ,

On the run moving from bunker to bunker when not a single player in the world could get anywhere near close to 15 one handed and on the run ,

While reloading ,

And any number of a dozen other areas that were Ramping not allowed , 15BPS would not be possible by anyone , anywhere , with any marker.....in legal semi.

:)

[autococker04]

i hate it when people find that it is absolutely nessissary, like they cant play semi, and those who cant controle it

[mobsterboy]

Helps the 99.9% of the world who couldn't hit 15+ bps to save thier life , which without arguement increases the # of shots on target and therefore the potential for an Elimination , and Now they can do it ....

With on finger left or right handed ,


On the run off the break when not a single player in the world could get anywhere near close to 15 one handed and on the run ,

On the run moving from bunker to bunker when not a single player in the world could get anywhere near close to 15 one handed and on the run ,

While reloading ,

And any number of a dozen other areas that were Ramping not allowed , 15BPS would not be possible by anyone , anywhere , with any marker.....in legal semi.

:)

My point exactly. so people who cant walk to save their lives, this is a handicap, not a help.
SCPoloRicker, those posts never get old, NEVER :rolleyes:

[dahoeb]

i don't think its much different than putting cork in a bat. thats just my opinion.

[mobsterboy]

i don't think its much different than putting cork in a bat. thats just my opinion.
QFT

[Lenny]

I'm ok with controlled ramping. Once you get into that "unlimited" stuff, it's a bit unsafe.

I've used ramping once, maybe twice. I don't like it. I feel... out of control. I am no longer controlling the amount of paint going into the air, a computer is. I could stop shooting and two, maybe three more balls will fly out of the barrel.

It makes me uncomfortable.

Though, I will add, it is really impressive on the target range. Just hearing that "pf-pf-pf-pf-pf-pf-pf!" is cool.

EDIT:
I should add this. I've been playing majority pump for a little while now, and all I can say is if you want to improve your skills, this is how to do it.

Oh, and always shoot large bore paint out of a non-removable barrel. Always!

Viva le Pump! (and viva le Automag, too. It's still my favorite semi.)

[Lohman446]

My point exactly. so people who cant walk to save their lives, this is a handicap, not a help.
SCPoloRicker, those posts never get old, NEVER :rolleyes:


What about those of us that think that trigger skill should not be one of the skill sets tested in paintball. This removes it from the skillset tested by the game. That some 400lb player could stand in the back and shoot 15BPS in semi and have basically no other skill and be considered good was ludicrous. No offense intended, because I realize that good back players do far more than just shoot paint, but it seems not everyone on the field has had that realization

[Lohman446]

Id suggest playing: Tag. Hide and go seek. Red Rover. Flag Football. Dodge ball. Capture the Flag.

If you want to play a shooting sport based on capture the flag, shooting should be part of the skill set. End of story.

Shooting, sure - accuracy, leading a moving target wonderful. Moving my fingers really really fast - bleh Just because you have an opinion Lord Rogue does not mean it is the end of story, despite your declarations, sorry.

[punkncat]

Please....not this......AGAIN........ :sleeping:

[Lohman446]

Lord Lohman, if you want a sport that requires accuracy and leading a moving target, without shooting skill, play dodge ball.

If you want to play a shooting sport/game, shooting should be a part of the skillset. You cant shoot a ball without pulling the trigger, which should require skill. How fast and accurate you are is dependent upon your trigger discipline.

If youve been trained to handle firearms, you should know this. The discipline of technique in martial arts is no different. Being the self-proclaimed gun-totting martial artist that you are, one would think you would agree with this basic premise.

Instead, with a non-shooting skillset, pulling the trigger lacks the requisite skills for accuracy and leading a target to be a skill. It becomes about "accuracy by volume" and the spray-n-pray technique, so commonly used.


My point is this. I like shooting skills to be part of the skillset, the game could not exist without them You would be playing tag. Ramping does away with the ability to pull the trigger fast as part of the skillset.

Accuracy, aiming, leading a target: Great parts of the skillset tested by paintball

Moving my fingers fast: Not a great part of the skillset tested, in my opinion.

Ramping takes moving my fingers fast out of the skillset

[RRfireblade]

My point exactly. so people who cant walk to save their lives, this is a handicap, not a help.
SCPoloRicker, those posts never get old, NEVER :rolleyes:

It's a liitle more than that.

How fast can you walk ?

How fast can you walk on a dead run to a bunker?

How fast can you walk supporting your gun with one hand while reloading?

How fast can you walk off handed while wrapping a bunker?

Those all 'used' to be skills that now everyone one gets for free.

For most people that is a BIG help to say the least , and in addition a big edge taken away from those of us who have spent thier whole paintball career developing.

Pretty big swing all around.

[Lohman446]

You can acquire the skill of accuracy, aiming, and leading a target by playing dodge ball. So those skills in paintball are dependent on the skill of shooting, making them subset skills of shooting.

If youve been trained in firearms, you know that shooting fast AND accurate requires discipline and practice. It requires skill to do both simultaneously. To say otherwise is silly.

If you want to play a shooting sport, the act of shootiing the marker should be an acquired(by practice, not by pocketbook) and required skill.

I disagree. Double tapping is far different then what is done on the paintball field. And face it, volume means something. Ramping makes volume even, and allows those with the rest of the skillset to stand out better. And I will disagree with your last declartion, not in PSP (though there are other issues that need dealt with). Its too easy to state opinion as fact. Again, differentiating shooting fast from shooting well

[Lohman446]

Agreed. I am not referring to double-tapping.

Unload your clip as fast as you can, semi-auto, and watch your accuracy go to crap. THAT is whats done on a paintball field, and was my point. To shoot fast and be accurate, requires skill.


Right, it means that accuracy isnt as much a skill as youve stated.


Agreed. Which means the guy with shooting skill(speed and accuracy) is now even with the guy who has less skill. This does NOT result in standing out better for those with greater skill.


Accuracy is a skill - far more important and, in my opinion, to the point of the game. All the speed in the world without accuracy was and is to this day worthless. All the accuracy in the world without being able to shoot at all is worthless. Ramping allows me to even the playing field on volume. It then causes accuracy to be more prominent in the skill set being tested by the game. The skill of shooting (not speed) becomes the skill that can be made to stand out. Speed has been made irrelevant (mostly). So, if one takes the first step that my opinion requires, that speed should not be part of the tested skillset, ramping is a positive.

[RRfireblade]

First off , stop comparing Firearms to paintball. . . they have nothing in common. ;)

With the right Firearm , leave me 3" of your body exposed and with one shot . . . you mine out to 1000yrds. I can and have proven that 'fact'. ;)

Second , volume in Paintball often counters deficiencies in accuracy.

Taking away a 'skill' from one competitor and giving it to the other 'evens' the playing feild in a game that is not designed to be 'evened'.

There are no handicaps inside the divisions nor should there be.

The weaker team is not allowed to leave first , get extra players , handicap points or 'free' shots.

This isn't league bowling. ;)

[rkjunior303]

i've played against some serious dodgeball players and they're no joke lol

i can pull over 15 with no bounce. people here can attest.

[Lohman446]

Exactly. Volume shouldnt be even to compensate for your lack of shooting skill.

And as youve stated, accuracy is related to volume. Which is why being able to shoot fast(volume of paint being shot) should be an acquired skill in paintball.

I don't agree.

Lets simplify here. Four of the skills in paintball (pre ramping)

1) Movement
2) Accuracy
3) Volume of paint shot (speed)
4) Teamwork

Now, this is opinion, and you can disagree with it all you want, but I am not the only one who holds it. I don't like speed of shooting being part of the skillset tested, ramping takes it out of the skillset. Thus it allows the rest of the skillset to be tested better.

Disagree all you want. In my opinion being able to shoot fast should not be an aquired skill in paintball.

[mobsterboy]

lohman, so by saying ramping allows you to even the field of volume, are you admitting you suck?(Oh, i mean suck at walking, my mistake :p )

No, paintball is a lot like firearms. Why else do you think that most of the armed forces use paintball as a training medium...because ITS LIKE PLAYING WAR. And if it was all just given like it is now, what separates the noobs from the pros? They all shoot the same amount, taht used to be something I admired from the pros, now i see them as lazy and lucky rec players that made it somehow.

Dont worry rogue, he has chosen another sport, because he couldnt take what paintball had become. Deep inside, he knows that he agrees with what you say. Its just one of those things. He knows he's wrong, but he thinks that eventually if he twists the topic and tells himself its not true, that eventually he'll just wake up and it wont be true. Keep dreaming Loh, and keep up the good work, with Yak and Derek gone, we needed a new forum moron...

I think that by giving ramping, a lot of the skills i used to practice hard to obtain are now worth nothing. Of course, I still go to local fields and play true semi. and when i spike the bps to 16, 17, 18 bps they tell me to stop ramping, and i tell them to start walking. Its always fun to come around and see their faces when the paint just pours out of my guns by MY OWN WILL, not some board

[mobsterboy]

Now, this is opinion, and you can disagree with it all you want, but I am not the only one who holds it. I don't like speed of shooting being part of the skillset tested, ramping takes it out of the skillset. Thus it allows the rest of the skillset to be tested better.


So i suppose since accuracy isnt one of those things that should be tested in sports, i guess it would be ok to just use a t-ball tee, and just see how good the players are at hitting, catchign and running. I mean, because we wouldnt want them to be too good. Or maybe we should just have the ball magnetize to the goal in basketball because running up and down the court, dribbling and passing shoudl be the skills tested. Or heck, just have the golf balls honed to the holes because its really just seeing how far the golfer can hit it...

[Lohman446]

lohman, so by saying ramping allows you to even the field of volume, are you admitting you suck?(Oh, i mean suck at walking, my mistake :p )

No, paintball is a lot like firearms. Why else do you think that most of the armed forces use paintball as a training medium...because ITS LIKE PLAYING WAR. And if it was all just given like it is now, what separates the noobs from the pros? They all shoot the same amount, taht used to be something I admired from the pros, now i see them as lazy and lucky rec players that made it somehow.

Dont worry rogue, he has chosen another sport, because he couldnt take what paintball had become. Deep inside, he knows that he agrees with what you say. Its just one of those things. He knows he's wrong, but he thinks that eventually if he twists the topic and tells himself its not true, that eventually he'll just wake up and it wont be true. Keep dreaming Loh, and keep up the good work, with Yak and Derek gone, we needed a new forum moron...

I think that by giving ramping, a lot of the skills i used to practice hard to obtain are now worth nothing. Of course, I still go to local fields and play true semi. and when i spike the bps to 16, 17, 18 bps they tell me to stop ramping, and i tell them to start walking. Its always fun to come around and see their faces when the paint just pours out of my guns by MY OWN WILL, not some board


Nice to speak for me. I was reasonably ok at shooting fast, it was never a focus of my game and there is little doubt that many, if not most, serious players were better at it then me. That being said, ramping impacts most players far more than it did me

As to presuming to speak about why I quit paintball. It had nothing to do with not handling the game. It had to do with cheating, bulllying refs, and general politics becoming far too much of the skillset that was tested on most days at tournaments. The game became pointless to me when it was not about shooting the other team but about who could hide the most hits from the refs (grossly simplified, judging by your moron comments, you need it).

Skills, other than being able to show off how much paint one can shoot is what seperates the noobs from the pros. "I know I'm wrong" News to me.

Am I necessarily right that speed on the trigger should not be part of the skillset? No - its an opinion. I'm just smart enough to note that my opinion is just that. Apparently you are not, I always assumed Rogue was, and beleive deep down he is. You, I doubt.

[Lohman446]

So i suppose since accuracy isnt one of those things that should be tested in sports, i guess it would be ok to just use a t-ball tee, and just see how good the players are at hitting, catchign and running. I mean, because we wouldnt want them to be too good. Or maybe we should just have the ball magnetize to the goal in basketball because running up and down the court, dribbling and passing shoudl be the skills tested. Or heck, just have the golf balls honed to the holes because its really just seeing how far the golfer can hit it...

I never said accuracy should not be tested. Read closely, I know its hard for your mind to follow. I actually said very much the opposite.

[RRfireblade]

No, paintball is a lot like firearms. Why else do you think that most of the armed forces use paintball as a training medium...because ITS LIKE PLAYING WAR


Trust me , that part I'm quite aware of. I build alot of product for the military , for that purpose.

I've just yet to see any military branch pulling maneuvers on Speedball field. ;)

[Lohman446]

Wait wait, I want to compare it to firearms, seems how we are discussing ramping. When the military wants to shoot really really fast they train the soldiers to "walk" double trigger frames right?

Seriously though, as RR pointed out before, there may be some similarities between firearms and paintball but they are rather moot in how the game is played.

My guess, is that I actually place the skill of shooting fast higher in the skillset tested than those who argue for true semi. Just a guess.

There is a vast difference between saying "I think because" and this is how it is, end of story. My dismay is not with the arguments made, it is with the finality that they are stated.

[Lohman446]

I believe you. You have skill that most others dont. On the field, you would have an advantage, and should, because you have greater shooting skill in a sport based on shooting.



You are entitled to your opinion. But I will disagree(all I want), as you have. I too am not the only one who holds my opinion. If the skill of paintball was about accuracy and aim, players would shoot less and make each shot count. They dont.

"You dont like" is the basis for your opinion. The depth of your convictions give little reason to debate further.

Its only paintball that caters to the lowest common denominator and lowest skillset. Which is why the game has degraded to where it is.

I thought my opinion was a little deeper than that. I just don't think it should be part of the skillset. You think it should. Thats fair enough. Removing it from the skillset is not "playing to the lowest common denominator" its emphasizing different skills in the game. The thought that someone can overcome a lack of being able to move, shoot accurately (within reason) and work well as a team by laying a wall of paint concerns me. If we make everyone able to lay that same wall of paint, we move the skills tested. Don't belittle opinions that are different than yours, it doesn't suit you well.

[rkjunior303]

the most important "skill" on a speedball field is teamwork.

if you can't play as a team, you will NOT get far. truth in point, my 7 man team this year. 10 real good players but we couldn't put it together as a team.

Shooting fast helps but it's not necessary. If you plan your game well enough and communicate that plan effectively during the actual match, you're much better off.

[kruger]

You know, when this thread was started, I thought that it was about paintball. I guess that I was wrong. Its about speedball in particular, not paintball in general. The other side of paintball, the woods/scenario ball side, is not really adressed in this thread.

[REDRT]

I wonder why all the same arguements over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over...

[kruger]

Redrt, I was wondering the same thing. This thread has appeared numerous times, but it just had a different name.

[FlawleZ]

Alright.

First of all, could you guys disagree anymore? Half of your posts are redundant and your oinions have been stated and restated. We seem to have a pissing contest going on here (with all due respect).


Ramping is an important part of competitive paintball today. Walk out on the field without it and you're at a disadvantage I don't care who you are. Whether the aspect of actually pulling the trigger fast is a necessary skill to be competitive in paintball or not is a moot point. That's why we have PSP and NPPL. Compete however you'd like.

In my opinion, the game was better off without ramping. NOT because of the consistent high rates of fire, but with the attitudes of the people who are affiliated with the sport today. In the end, when you pit two teams against each other with ramping, the most skilled team will still win because all other factors are constant. The same goes for two teams playing without ramping. The debate whether it makes a significant impact in situations where one team or player has ramping and the other doesn't is nonexistant because this situation doesn't exist in a professional setting.

[REDRT]

Redrt, I was wondering the same thing. This thread has appeared numerous times, but it just had a different name.

Like most subject matters or this forum. :rolleyes:

[SpitFire1299]

Ramping allows players to work on field work more. Yes, it kind of makes accuracy and speed much easier. But then again, it makes everything else harder. :)

[p8ntball72]

The problem with ramping "in my experience", is that it is widely used [under the radar] in rec and more now in Scenario.

I have played 20+ "events" in the last two years, and Ramping is becoming a serious problem with recreational players.

I dont play tournaments.. so ramping should not effect me right?..

I'm finding it harder and harder to find a field owner that provides not only a safe environment for me to play, but also to supply a game format that I feel comfortable playing.

I'm this close to getting my Golf clubs polished, anodized, and regripped.
Fireblade, can you do some custom milling on my irons?

[Lenny]

Ramping is a tool. Just like semi-auto was. Just like the auto-trigger was before that. Just like constant air was. Bulk Loaders. Etc.

All of these things have become standard. If used correctly, it is a viable tool. Used incorrectly, it is a crutch.

I agree with Loh, there is alot of skill still left in trigger play with ramping.

I also agree with Rogue in that it does take some skill out of trigger play by making it easier.

I still believe the pro's (or any good team for that matter) use it correctly. They don't win because of ramping and insane ROF. It is used as a tool to help them win. They win because of outstanding teamwork and great plays and maneuvers performed by the players. They win because of great team communication. They win because of sacrafice. They win because they support eachother. They win because they are skilled. They don't just rely on ramping to do the work for them.

Many of the young "agg"-ers use it as their only way to win. Many rec players will not use it as a tool. They will use it to the advantage of neglecting other skills. Thus, they are hurting themselves in the process. I started playing with a Spyder Compact. If I wanted to shoot fast, I really had to work at it. Since then, I have learned to appreciate higher ROF and to use it to my advantage.

Many of these newer kids are raised with nothing less than an e-grip'd blowback. ROF is, and always has been, there for them. They never learned to appreciate the higher ROF electro's uphold. Just like I never appreciated the ROF semi's hold against those raised on pumps; that is, until I began to really play pump.

It's like a calculator on a math test. It'll help you if used properly; to help you calculate. But, if you do not take the time to learn the formulas or the processes and rely on the calculator to simply figure all that out for you, you're really just hurting yourself. Your not really learning anything.

So, can we just agree to disagree and be friends again?

And maybe let this topic die?

[mobsterboy]

Like most subject matters or this forum. :rolleyes:

hmm, well if it wasnt discussed over and over again, we'd just have a thread of facts and be done with it. But seeing as that facts alone dont make a forum worth coming to, and that controversy often draws higher crowds, stirs up the masses and often creates more threads off these ideas, this is what the great minds of paintball do, bounce around facts, opinions, references, beliefs in a goal to advance the sport for the better.
I mean honestly, if you really think back, usually the "good old days" that you remember are either Pre-Ion or Pre-Ramping (Just wait, the Ion thread will come), how can you honestly say the sport has advanced at all if most of the 2+ year players now do not like the sport as much as they did?

Ok, teamwork, so by giving everyone the exact same bps speed, you are no longer relying on your backplayers to lane the fields with suppressive fire and instead you give a player a one gun fits all piece of equipment. So instead of seeing your front players as snapshooters and angle workers, you see them as having just as much firepower as the backplayers. Ramping has pretty much put everyone on the all out front offensive, no one stays behind to lane, no one gives cover fire, everyone is their own team essentially. Wheres teamwork in that?

Lohman, it wasnt about what you said. Just think of it this way, what makes you stand out in paintball? Skills, you gotta have skills.(Man, i feel like that came straight out of Napoleon Dynamite) So every aspect of the game is a skill. Positions, covering for eachother, stances, movements, everything. And being good at all those is what makes the pro's different from everyone else. So by eliminating one aspect of the game, you are essentially making it easier to become pro. That would be like saying, as long as the baseball hits the ball, its a homerun. Well, if everyone can at least hit the ball, homeruns are no longer special, are they? So the ability to walk a paintball gun throughout the game was somethign special that set people apart from everyone else, told you who was good and who wasnt, now its a trait any noob with an ion and a little bounce setting can do. Granted its not legal ramping, but during rec days, no one really cares. Frankly, I could care less if I won or loss...to someone who actually knew the game, all the aspects of it and practiced to get the skill they had. But when its a new player fresh on the scene, I dont like the fac that he does not possess the respect needed, learned and earned, when it comes to nice guns and bps speeds for older players. More power to young players that are good, but when a kid comes to the field with his brand new (at the time) DM5 that he got for christmas and strips teh feedneck threads (on the body, not the feedneck) out just putting it on, do you really think he deserves to shoot that fast with no effort, practice and learned skill?

[RRfireblade]

I'll just add a little summary.

More shots in a game using inaccurate equiptment = Better

More shots in a game using unpredictable projectiles = Better

More shots in a game where baggy clothes are legal = Better

More shots in a game where a slide in the dirt = no more marks = Better

More shots where brushing off "Splatter" = no more marks = Better

Physical ability to put more shots into the air and on target than the competition = Advantage

Physical ability removed and evenly distributed to every other player on the field = Reverse Evolution. :)


Let's just keep the whole Ramping discussion on it's only 'Real' point.

It has NOTHING to do with competition , evening the playing field or any other competition related context. It was deceided and was in widespread agreement YEARS ago that true semiauto play should be the core of the game at the highest skill levels of the sport.

Ramping is ONLY in existance for one and only one reason , as a complete bail out by the current governing bodies in a totally failed attempt to stop cheaters. Let them all cheat and that's one less thing out of our control to worry about... Oh , and the fact the we sell them the paint is just an added bonus.

It's really that simple.

Other than that , if it's legal for 'you' and you have no shame in explioting that than use it.

If any of that doesn't apply to you , then don't. Cool thing about personal opinion huh? :)

[kruger]

If the players that you play with are not up to your standards, then find some place else to play. Or quit. Complaining about change does not stop the change. If there are certain parts of the game that you dont agree with, then dont associate with those parts. It really is very simple.

:D

[dahoeb]

professional paintball is supposed to measure a persons skill in paintball. what better way to sort the truly great players from the rest of the flock than to grade all of the skills they're proficient at? eg: trigger control....


baseball doesn't allow cork, even though cork would make it easier for some of the weaker players to hit homeruns.

nascar requires all the cars to meet very specific specs inorder to better measure the driver himself and not the equipment hes riding it.

i just don't see why pball should be much different.

just my 2cents

[superfreakmabsta]

i seriuosly cant believe for a secound that threads like this continue to pop up. i use semi but only because i want to play a format that doesnt allow ramping in it. other then that i would continue to use it in a heart beat. i dont understand the issue. ramping does not in any way detract from the game. todays xball games utilize 15 bps ramping. each point is a fraction of the time and uses a fraction of the paint that we were seeing players use in 10 man games. omg. ramping is here to stay, so you best get used to it. me and my mag are going to ramp at every badlandz tourny we play in.

[mobsterboy]

i seriuosly cant believe for a secound that threads like this continue to pop up. i use semi but only because i want to play a format that doesnt allow ramping in it. other then that i would continue to use it in a heart beat. i dont understand the issue. ramping does not in any way detract from the game. todays xball games utilize 15 bps ramping. each point is a fraction of the time and uses a fraction of the paint that we were seeing players use in 10 man games. omg. ramping is here to stay, so you best get used to it. me and my mag are going to ramp at every badlandz tourny we play in.
next weeks thread will be about people and their secret identities. Cuz i seriously wanna know who don miguel is. I would just laugh if it was like Zupe just messing with us tho

[warbeak2099]

next weeks thread will be about people and their secret identities. Cuz i seriously wanna know who don miguel is. I would just laugh if it was like Zupe just messing with us tho

Oh my god that would be friggin hilarious.

[REDRT]

AGD is closing the doors?
What is the difference of the Xvalve vs an rt valve?
When is AGD going to come out with...?
When is tag going to release...?
Ramping...
Ion...
Smart parts this and that...
When is the hAir trigger coming out?

Just a few topics that get talked about over and over again. Why is it? I mean if I was to go a "do a search" (yet another annoying phrase) I get board to death reading the countless pages of crap. Suprisingly enough it never ends. Just plain stupidity. I'd suppose if the same things didn't get talked about from day to day the forum wouldn't have anything to talk about. Has it come to that? Originality? Seriously?

[geekwarrior]

AGD is closing the doors?
What is the difference of the Xvalve vs an rt valve?
When is AGD going to come out with...?
When is tag going to release...?
Ramping...
Ion...
Smart parts this and that...

you forgot the hair trigger

[REDRT]

you forgot the hair trigger

How could I forget that one ;)

[Beemer]

Can someone please help me here. I need to know what is the difference between Ramping and full auto?

The only difference is the word, ramping allows you to avoid using those two dirty four letter words. You can say ramping but dont ever say......

[Lohman446]

The only difference is the word, ramping allows you to avoid using those two dirty four letter words. You can say ramping but dont ever say......

One could make the argument that ramping takes into consideration possible accidental discharge in the staging area and outside of masks - the first pull only allows one where full auto allows... well until the trigger is released. Thats assuming the best of those involved though, which one is hard pressed to do

[Beemer]

Thats another issue all together. Players are not taught how to make their guns safe the right way to begin with. A barrel bag is just a band aid for doing it the wrong way. Dont look around to much. The only thing between your eyes and a ball is a barrel cover.

Folks I know from the real range dont want to hang around to long when they see how guns arent made safe the right way in a safe area.

[K Wolf]

I wish ramping would go away. I don't object to the high rates of fire. I think ramping is a poor subtitute for full auto fire. Why is full auto fire such a taboo while the same rate of fire is sustainable through ramping? Some may not be willing to admit it, but paintball IS mock combat lite. "Laning" is a version of suppressive fire. Why not have full auto fire available? How about tournies with stock, pump, semi, and full auto class competition?

The odd thing is, that while the makers of ramping markers do their best to insist that ramping is semiauto, the U.S. BATFE would consider any firearm with ramping to be a machinegun.

BTW, I am well aware that paintball and firearms are very different (no 0.33 MOA shots at 1,000 yards in paintball). It is just idiotic to ignore the similarities between the two. When I'm on the paintball field, I am not trying to "tag" my opponents, I am trying to "kill" them while avoiding being "killed". What makes it fun, is that it has no consequenses in real life.

[SpitFire1299]

Full auto is 1 pull, and endless shooting. If you get trigger stick, or something hits the trigger.. the gun will constantly shoot, and thats not safe at all. Ramping requires 3 pulls in under 1 second before it can be activated. It immediatley shuts down once your finger is let off, and you will be required to activate it again if you wait to long.

:cheers:

[K Wolf]

Full auto is 1 pull, and endless shooting. If you get trigger stick, or something hits the trigger.. the gun will constantly shoot, and thats not safe at all.

Trigger stick should not be an issue in a correctly designed marker. Any marker will fire at least once if the trigger is hit/pressed by something. Safe gun handling practices should help avoid negligent discharges. The huge double triggers and equally huge trigger guards, that are popular/needed to sustain high ROF in non full auto markers, greatly increase the chances of foreign objects presseing the trigger. Double triggers and huge trigger guards would not be needed on a full auto marker.


Ramping requires 3 pulls in under 1 second before it can be activated. It immediatley shuts down once your finger is let off, and you will be required to activate it again if you wait to long.

:cheers:

In your example, a ramping marker, capped to 15 bps, would continue to fire 5 balls in the 1/3 second it takes for the marker to detect you are not pulling the trigger at 3 bps.
A full auto marker would stop firing within the one cycle of the bolt. So it might fire one more ball after trigger release, depending on exactly when in the firing cycle the trigger was released.

I know which one I consider safer.

:cheers:
Karl

[peewee]

The two places that I see impact with ramping.
First Off the break it = twice as much paint in the air, lanes are deathzones unless your a chipmunk on crack.

Second the ability to supply your own "effective" cover fire when moving.

[mobsterboy]

The two places that I see impact with ramping.
First Off the break it = twice as much paint in the air, lanes are deathzones unless your a chipmunk on crack.

Second the ability to supply your own "effective" cover fire when moving.

So what good is team work if every man is his own team?

All I know is the blame goes completely back on the player for everything when theres just true semi. Bonus Balling? It was the players fault, not the ramping ran away. Speeds? Psh, well, if you can shoot faster than everyone else in true semi, you SHOULD have that upperhand, if you cant, get over it and practice. Suckiness? You are the issue, not your marker(...well, thats always the case but anyways...) Someone shot while they were moving? You get the idea...If i really need to elaborate, i will, but If you look at how paintball was before and after ramping, the only people who like ramping now are the ones that sucked at paintball before, and suck worse now (or are on a sponsored team and dont really care how they shoot cuz they were good before)

[REDRT]

Evolution of the game. Embrace it or just shut up already!

[Lohman446]

To some degree it is a limiting of what factors are allowed to compete, what factors are allowed to "evolve" if one would. Now, I know the argument is going to be that the examples I list are the exact reverse, the mechanical limitation rather than skill limiting, but I am going to put forward the argument they are not as far removed as you would think.

Nascar could have been about who could build the fastest car. To some degree it still is, but when Nascar put in rules about air flow, fuel tank size, restrictor plates, etc. it was to make the competition about the skill of the driver rather than about the car.

I already know where I have blurred a line. I realize ramping takes away a skill and replaces it with equipment. I still stand by the example for this reason. Allowing it allows more emphasis to be placed on other skills in the game rather than who can move there fingers the quickest.

That being said, I fully comprehend the arguments to disallow ramping. Regardless it all comes down to a simple base disagreement on if the skill of shooting fast should be a skillset tested in paintball. I will give those that disagree with its allowance the argument of safety - there are argument that can be made to question the safety on the field of ramping. That being said I think they do not hold up to scrutiny in a world where one is capable of achieving (supposedly) the same speed without ramping.

I would disagree that it is ramping that is ruining the game. Despite my final agreement that today, tournament speedball is "being ruined" and rec ball is not far behind.

[RRfireblade]

To some degree it is a limiting of what factors are allowed to compete, what factors are allowed to "evolve" if one would. Now, I know the argument is going to be that the examples I list are the exact reverse, the mechanical limitation rather than skill limiting, but I am going to put forward the argument they are not as far removed as you would think.

Nascar could have been about who could build the fastest car. To some degree it still is, but when Nascar put in rules about air flow, fuel tank size, restrictor plates, etc. it was to make the competition about the skill of the driver rather than about the car.

I already know where I have blurred a line. I realize ramping takes away a skill and replaces it with equipment. I still stand by the example for this reason. Allowing it allows more emphasis to be placed on other skills in the game rather than who can move there fingers the quickest.

That being said, I fully comprehend the arguments to disallow ramping. Regardless it all comes down to a simple base disagreement on if the skill of shooting fast should be a skillset tested in paintball. I will give those that disagree with its allowance the argument of safety - there are argument that can be made to question the safety on the field of ramping. That being said I think they do not hold up to scrutiny in a world where one is capable of achieving (supposedly) the same speed without ramping.

I would disagree that it is ramping that is ruining the game. Despite my final agreement that today, tournament speedball is "being ruined" and rec ball is not far behind.

The NASCAR example is heavily flawed however. They're trying to make the equiptment equal for all but not restrictive of the drivers ability.

Your example would be more like making the cars all automatic because some of the drivers can't shift as well as others , which only hurts the drivers with better shifting skill.

Or mandating power steering cause some drivers arms aren't as strong as others.

Catering to the lowerest common denominator in a supposed 'competition' is a sad joke played on everyone involved.

I guess the next logical 'Evolution' of the game is to limit the time your allowed to make a bunker off the break so fast feet isn't an advantage....

Then we can add glass panels to all the bunkers so being a fast snap shooter isn't an advantage....

Of course the next step would be no talking on the feild so fast communication isn't an advantage....

I guess the future of paintball is....... Chess. :D




:ninja:

[Lohman446]

I vote we just flip a coin to decide if your eliminated or not :) and which team got the flag pull. It would solve our cheating issues too. I still say though, your intentionally missing the positive side of allowing ramping. Then again, I assume there is one



:D

[RRfireblade]

I vote we just flip a coin to decide if your eliminated or not :) and which team got the flag pull. It would solve our cheating issues too. I still say though, your intentionally missing the positive side of allowing ramping. Then again, I assume there is one



:D

Honestly I do see a tiny positive side.... tiny. I still feel and really don't see any way that it's not more of a limit of skill than anything else.

Be honest , really be honest , when you watch a game of younger players playing speed/X/air ball and most of the team is shooting 15+ literally with on finger on the trigger ( I see it all the time) , how could that possibly be 'equal' to someone capable of that on a semi ?

If that kid and concievably the rest of his team was shooting 5 instead of 15 would you not agree that no matter how great his others skills , he'd be at a disadvantage ?

Of course there are times when it;s not critical BUT there are plenty of times when it is.

Last point then , I had a kid on a team in the past that could easily , regulary and consistantly walk 12-13 bps while on a pretty fast run , not dead run but hauling. I'm not to shabby at it myself. I've only seen a handfull of people EVER that can do what he could on the move. It's was a huge advantage to have an extra gun in the air raining paint AND taking an offensive bunker. Imagine 2 doing it.

Now imagine , wait.... just look , now anyone can do it in fact now at 15+.

That's my main point.

I said it earlier , Ramp/Auto/PSP is not an 'evolution' of the sport. It just isn't. No one in the world sat down and said,

"Hey , you know what would make the sport more competitve and better for TV and spectator? Automatic firing ! !"

Didn't happen that way.

What happened was "Hey , cheating is way out of control.We can't stop it , we can;t hardly even make a dent no matter what we do. It's a problem that is being CREATED and SUPPORTED by the manufactuers AND the sponsers where we get all our revenue so we can possibly do anything to them so.... now what. If they're going to cheat with ROF , we'll let everyone cheat in the same way and focus our efforts elsewhere."

Actually they 'thought' it'd be easy hear a 15+ cheater amongst the =/- 15er's and they were Soooooo wrong. :D

People are now getting caught on , occasion , shooting into the 20's.

[jman511115]

While this thread is useless, and is a repeat of about ten million other threads... I feel I must add in my two cents.

Ramping isn't all it's cracked up to be, it does give an advantage to players with less skill, but not decisively so. Tournaments and games can be won by players with semi auto electros, mechs, or even :eek: pump markers.



Second the ability to supply your own "effective" cover fire when moving.

"effective" is a term of relativity. It depends on your ability to make your mirror or whoever has you pinned down duck behind their bunker. While ramping can help, it can also be a detriment for players who totally depend on ramping and forget that they have to actually point the marker in the right direction.

I personally play most tournaments with either my mech mag, or a pump cocker. I have never used ramping in a game, and it has never affected me negatively.

Edit: For those of you who scoff and laugh at me saying that I'm one of those guys who just doesn't understand because I don't shoot an electro...

Untill recently I owned a Smartparts Impulse, with a Wicked Air Sportz board in it. Coincidentially, that board posessed all forms of ramping and full auto... but my fingers could walk about 13 consistant bps on the trigger, so why bother using em? I now own an Alien Remains, with the same board, and likewise, I keep it on semi.

And RR... right on.

[BD_Paintball]

i dont mind playing against people who use ramping. i have the option on my proto to use ramping but i have never used it because i play in the NCPA (college league with semi only). when you play against people who ramp you play tigher and smarter and you have to play better since there is, in most cases more paint being shot at you. then when you go play a semi only tourney (college tourneys for me) its much easer to make moves and to gun fight. when you play semi you learn how to shoot your gun and not just pull the trigger 5 times a second and have 15 come out. i have always used semi and now i can shoot my gun very fast. just about everyone on my team can shoot 15 constantly with a legal gun.