Manike on PigTV about the MINI

[BigEvil]

http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/tradeshows/cup06_vid/mini.shtml

Hmmm.... two stage bolt,.... starts moving forwards slowly, then speeds up.... where have I heard that before? All of the internals are removable out the back with one screw... and isnt the trigger a Hall-Effect switch? WOW its Deja vue!!!

Pretty nice gun. Ive heard nothing but great things from the people who have seen it already.

[BD_Paintball]

sounds cool. and the price is good also

[Chronobreak]

simon did a much better job than whoever did the first one imo

but maybe that was just ebcause of his brit accent

[rkjunior303]

Simon's so much easier to understand when you haven't had 30 beers on St. Patrick's Day.

[Rudz]

i still dont like the direct mounted asa...but maybe i will try one of these new mags..i mean minis..

[warbeak2099]

BUYING ONE. IMO it's just like having a CP direct mount. Everyone seems to love direct mount / rail mounted ASA's so why is there such a hooplah over it? Virtually no one uses drops anymore. Anyone Simon is my hero.

[DiRTyBuNNy]

the Mini is basically everything that the eMag v2.0 should have been...oh well...

--Mr. DB

[warbeak2099]

Rly tho, it isn't a mag. It's a poppit valve'er.

[DiRTyBuNNy]

Rly tho, it isn't a mag. It's a poppit valve'er.

Well, obviously...but it is a smaller and lighter and does have quite the X-Mag shape to it in a way...

--Mr. DB

[Chrishew09]

http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/tradeshows/cup06_vid/mini.shtml

Hmmm.... two stage bolt,.... starts moving forwards slowly, then speeds up.... where have I heard that before? All of the internals are removable out the back with one screw... and isnt the trigger a Hall-Effect switch? WOW its Deja vue!!!

Pretty nice gun. Ive heard nothing but great things from the people who have seen it already.

So you noticed that too, I just saw the video yesterday and it made me laugh.
AGD had the same technologies years ago, and the industy is just catching up, just goes to show how ahead of the times AGD was. From what I understand didn't TK have the option to use a type of Popet design rather then the spring return for the bolt but he wanted the spring??

Anyway this marker looks like a winner to me and cheap, wait one year when they are going to go for $250 used, and all the bugs are worked out.

[SR_matt]

i love how he said its nothbing like anyother marker, IMHO it is a lot like a mag/tag 8/ any other blow forward design, they just changed it slightly so it uses 2 stages to shoot as apposed to just one resivoir.

but it is rather sexy and i might have to break down and get an electro.

-matt

[PumpPlayer]

It has a trigger, a barrel and electronics and it shoots a paintball. In that way, it's the same as virtually every semi- produced right now. What does it take for something to be a bonafide "new" and not "just changed slightly?"

I don't care one way or the other what you want to call it but it seems to me that paintball players are at times excessively harsh critics.


Anyhow, Simon and his crew came up with a good design that, any way you cut it, claims to be lighter, smaller and more reliable than anything else out right now and does it at less than half the price of comparable gear (and less than a quarter the price of some "high-end" guns). I'll hold my opinion until I can use one in a game but at least from the design goals and marketing claims, it looks quite promising.


Now they just have to worry about the cancer that infects all paintball marker sales markets - customization.
(Oh noes, I can't have one if it's just like what everyone else has! I need something unique! ZOMG 1 of 4!!!)

:rofl:

[Chrishew09]

Yes, this lower price comes as a surprise to me all other "high end" markers are priced $1K+ and they are pre-selling for $400.

One of three things must be true;
1) previous "high end" markers are way over priced
2)Invert is using very cheap materials and technology
3)Invert has found inexpensive manufacturing and part procurement methods

IMO, its option one, I mean come on $1500 for a PCB, Valve and Alluminum, give me a break.

[SCpoloRicker]

Maybe it's just me, but the fact that there was a multi-page thread named "Emag 07" doesn't mean that this marker is at all related to the Mag design.

/just sayin'

[SR_matt]

Yes, this lower price comes as a surprise to me all other "high end" markers are priced $1K+ and they are pre-selling for $400.

One of three things must be true;
1) previous "high end" markers are way over priced
2)Invert is using very cheap materials and technology
3)Invert has found inexpensive manufacturing and part procurement methods

IMO, its option one, I mean come on $1500 for a PCB, Valve and Alluminum, give me a break.
i think it might be a combo of the 3

you can list expenses all day to me but i think it is bull that any high end gun that is being done in large runs are being priced at 1000+. low runs of highend guns are different i expect it to be that much but it is becasue of the quanity.

i think the tech is cheaper, the selinoid can be cheaper becasue all it is doign is releasing air from behind the valve so it doesnt need to be as consistant to gun taht rely on the noid to operate the ram.

and i think since the tech is cheaper the design is simpler thus easier to assemble


i do like the idea of swaping the foregrip to change ur pre programed boards... even though i dont like the different modes, but its a good idea.

-matt

[Chrishew09]

i think it might be a combo of the 3

you can list expenses all day to me but i think it is bull that any high end gun that is being done in large runs are being priced at 1000+. low runs of highend guns are different i expect it to be that much but it is becasue of the quanity.


-matt

Agree 110%

[Jeffy-CanCon]

Curse you, Simon! I just bought your last gun!

Although I have to say, the Mini is ridiculously small. I'd be afraid of losing it is I ever put it down. Although, maybe if I attached a bright-red CanCon tank cover...

PS - Does PigTV add 10lbs, or are you are now conforming to American dietary norms? ;)

PPS - still hoping to sample your GF's home-baked cookies. Keep Andy at bay!

[Cameo]

Sexy....

in so many ways....
I'll convince my brother to buy one :p

[benzy2]

It sounds like a sprinkler valve when I hear him talk about it. Not quite the same concept but it gives me MQ images in my head. The first push on the bolt is slow due to the lack of volume and restricted pathways. When the pressure behind the one side of the popit drops so far the valve rushes open and the full blast poors out. If that doesnt sound like a sprinkler/MQ valve fitted inline I dont know what does.


And if this isnt what Im thinking of then I have a new idea in my head.

[spike_ball999]

It has a trigger, a barrel and electronics and it shoots a paintball. In that way, it's the same as virtually every semi- produced right now. What does it take for something to be a bonafide "new" and not "just changed slightly?"

Well we know it's not new, but it's a different way of thinking. For example, think about the automobile. Originally ran on steam and wasn't great, but with some modifications and different thinking about it, it became a good product.
Who knows, we may just have a future full of Ion and Mini clones.


I don't care one way or the other what you want to call it but it seems to me that paintball players are at times excessively harsh critics.

They're not so bad. Musicians are harsh critics. Change a color of something and disscontinue their favorite, they get irate. But then again, some paintball players are like that I guess. :rolleyes: You can never please or be pleased...

[SR_matt]

hmmm i guess ballers that are musicians as well are really bad then casue i freaked out when they discontinued the voodoo SG's by gibson, and i was mad when the good cockers were stoped being produced (2003 and before, basicaly once K2 tookover )

-matt

[AutomagRT1483]

I was impressed by the way Simon went over the gun. I like the design of it.

[st6212]

I was impressed by the way Simon went over the gun. I like the design of it.

That's cos he knows his stuff and know what's going on with it. Which is in contrast to that Epiphany vid with the SP "tech" :tard:

[Cameo]

That's cos he knows his stuff and know what's going on with it. Which is in contrast to that Epiphany vid with the SP "tech" :tard:

Not to mention the accent :D

[AutomagRT1483]

That's cos he knows his stuff and know what's going on with it.

Which is why I took that as a sales pitch and further decided that Im going to get one. ;)

[WenULiVeUdiE]

i love how he said its nothbing like anyother marker, IMHO it is a lot like a mag/tag 8/ any other blow forward design, they just changed it slightly so it uses 2 stages to shoot as apposed to just one resivoir

Except it uses a modified poppet valve.

'Mags dont have one.

Benzy- From what I know, it is similar in concept to an MQ.

[SR_matt]

ya its using a different valve but (at least in my mind) it is just modifing the way the air gets behind the bolt. yes it is a good design and is much different than others but i think that the design is more so of a modification of pervous designs (including mags)

-matt

[WenULiVeUdiE]

As stated by Simon, this is a design that has never been seen by modern paintball. Although, IIRC, a small company made this design over 10 years ago, nothing every came of it. So from Simon's statements, I would say your statement is false. Assuming they have readapted this design, then they have not merely edited that of the Automag.

It may be similar in some concepts, but that does not mean they reverse engineered an Automag and edited it...

[SR_matt]

i can see both sides of the argument, im just the type of person that connects everything if the designs are even remotely similar, while they might not have jsut edited the mag it still is a very similar concept
-matt

[manike]

i can see both sides of the argument, im just the type of person that connects everything if the designs are even remotely similar,

Then even you should have difficulty connecting this design to a mag.


while they might not have jsut edited the mag it still is a very similar concept
-matt

Please tell me what you consider to be "very similar"?

They really are nothing alike in how they work other than the spring return bolt, a HES, and a similarity in styling since it is a single tube body, with a squarish foregrip.

The concept of how this gun works is NOTHING like the concept of how a mag works.

The mini DOES NOT HAVE:-

1) A bolt with a piston down the centre, working like a 'champagne cork'.
2) A sear
3) An on/off
4) A chamber that gets pressurised to a set value as a specific volume then released
5) A regulator to control the pressure of a volume of gas (the mini's will allow constant flow even during the firing cycle).
6) A solenoid mechanically operating a sear.
7) A huge rechargeable battery
8) A wiring harness
9) A stainless steel bolt.
10) A regulator at the back of the gun that needs to be connected to it's source by a hose

What the mini DOES HAVE:-

1) A gas through main grip.
2) Regulator ASA with filter and pressure blow off
3) An extremely light bolt that has the gas come down the centre. Which is o-ring sealed at the back to control the gas that makes it move.
4) A poppet and face seal which controls the gas flow. Which moves in the opposite direction to the bolt on firing.
5) A movement restrictor that controls how much the poppet can open.
6) Two stage gas supply to the bolt (not two different surface area's like the level 10).
7) Break beam eyes.
8) Specially designed 3 way solenoid.
9) All the electronic controls in the foregrip.
10) Runs off a standard 9 Volt battery.
11) Only two sets of wires. Both of which are quick disconnect.

:cheers:

[BigEvil]

eh, dont go crazy.. this is just making all of the mag owners pyne for something new.

Its actually starting to grow on me. Probably too small for my taste, but definately interesting. I would check it out for the HES alone.

[Chrishew09]

Manike-

Since your on this post, will we be able to use drop forwards with this new ASA??

[Muzikman]

Then even you should have difficulty connecting this design to a mag.



Please tell me what you consider to be "very similar"?

They really are nothing alike in how they work other than the spring return bolt, a HES, and a similarity in styling since it is a single tube body, with a squarish foregrip.

The concept of how this gun works is NOTHING like the concept of how a mag works.

The mini DOES NOT HAVE:-

1) A bolt with a piston down the centre, working like a 'champagne cork'.
2) A sear
3) An on/off
4) A chamber that gets pressurised to a set value as a specific volume then released
5) A regulator to control the pressure of a volume of gas (the mini's will allow constant flow even during the firing cycle).
6) A solenoid mechanically operating a sear.
7) A huge rechargeable battery
8) A wiring harness
9) A stainless steel bolt.
10) A regulator at the back of the gun that needs to be connected to it's source by a hose

What the mini DOES HAVE:-

1) A gas through main grip.
2) Regulator ASA with filter and pressure blow off
3) An extremely light bolt that has the gas come down the centre. Which is o-ring sealed at the back to control the gas that makes it move.
4) A poppet and face seal which controls the gas flow. Which moves in the opposite direction to the bolt on firing.
5) A movement restrictor that controls how much the poppet can open.
6) Two stage gas supply to the bolt (not two different surface area's like the level 10).
7) Break beam eyes.
8) Specially designed 3 way solenoid.
9) All the electronic controls in the foregrip.
10) Runs off a standard 9 Volt battery.
11) Only two sets of wires. Both of which are quick disconnect.

:cheers:


So Simon, when should I expect one on my door step? ;)

Looks like you been busy man...

[SR_matt]

Then even you should have difficulty connecting this design to a mag.



Please tell me what you consider to be "very similar"?

They really are nothing alike in how they work other than the spring return bolt, a HES, and a similarity in styling since it is a single tube body, with a squarish foregrip.

The concept of how this gun works is NOTHING like the concept of how a mag works.

The mini DOES NOT HAVE:-

1) A bolt with a piston down the centre, working like a 'champagne cork'.
2) A sear
3) An on/off
4) A chamber that gets pressurised to a set value as a specific volume then released
5) A regulator to control the pressure of a volume of gas (the mini's will allow constant flow even during the firing cycle).
6) A solenoid mechanically operating a sear.
7) A huge rechargeable battery
8) A wiring harness
9) A stainless steel bolt.
10) A regulator at the back of the gun that needs to be connected to it's source by a hose

What the mini DOES HAVE:-

1) A gas through main grip.
2) Regulator ASA with filter and pressure blow off
3) An extremely light bolt that has the gas come down the centre. Which is o-ring sealed at the back to control the gas that makes it move.
4) A poppet and face seal which controls the gas flow. Which moves in the opposite direction to the bolt on firing.
5) A movement restrictor that controls how much the poppet can open.
6) Two stage gas supply to the bolt (not two different surface area's like the level 10).
7) Break beam eyes.
8) Specially designed 3 way solenoid.
9) All the electronic controls in the foregrip.
10) Runs off a standard 9 Volt battery.
11) Only two sets of wires. Both of which are quick disconnect.

:cheers:

IMHO the vavle desing is similar. bolt that gets propeled forward by air directly behind it, air that comes from directly behind it through it to shoot the ball.

yes it gets the air in a differant way and its electro but i think it has a conection closely resembling the relation between sherdians and cockers ("differant" designs but still close)

im not trying to bash the mini in any way (i will probably be picking one up once i can justify another marker) but i think saying it is nothing like a mag is off some what.

-matt

[WenULiVeUdiE]

Matt,

That does not constitute similar technical designs. Although it may be similar in the concept of "air directly propelling the bolt", nothing else is technically similar, which is what matters. To say otherwise would indicate all Spool valves are extremely similar to Automags, which they are not.

The differences, as denoted by Simon, are vast. I do not mean to sound rude, but such comments are typical of people who lack technical experience. That has been my observation though.

[SCpoloRicker]

What does this manike guy know anyways? Uber-alles Mags!

/I keed, I keed

[rkjunior303]

What does this manike guy know anyways? Uber-alles Mags!

/I keed, I keed


seriously ::dodgy::

[SR_matt]

maybe what i consider simmilar is different for what others might. going by the simple descriptions i have heard of how this works i see similar things in this design (mostly the front half of the system) to mags.

-matt

[manike]

IMHO the vavle desing is similar. bolt that gets propeled forward by air directly behind it, air that comes from directly behind it through it to shoot the ball.

In which case a LOT of guns are similar. All matrixes, shockers, mags, quests, Ions etc. get the bolt pushed forwards by air.... The way the mini bolt is pushed forwards is not like the way a mag bolt is pushed forwards. The mini bolt is pushed forwards along a bolt guide which fits down the centre... kind of like a powertube, but there is actually an o-ring seal between the two.


maybe what i consider simmilar is different for what others might. going by the simple descriptions i have heard of how this works i see similar things in this design (mostly the front half of the system) to mags.

You mean the spring, which is on the front of the bolt and returns it?

I'll grant you that is similar... :rofl:

[SR_matt]

In which case a LOT of guns are similar. All matrixes, shockers, mags, quests, Ions etc. get the bolt pushed forwards by air.... The way the mini bolt is pushed forwards is not like the way a mag bolt is pushed forwards. The mini bolt is pushed forwards along a bolt guide which fits down the centre... kind of like a powertube, but there is actually an o-ring seal between the two.

well i dont see how you can say they are totaly different but it has something that functions extreamly similar if not next to identicaly to a power tube, other than an oring seal.

so ok it has a bolt guide which works a lot like the powertube in a mag and is spring returned.

the only part that is a radicaly new design is the air resevoir and the way the air is let behind the bolt...

blow forward spring returned. how is that totaly different than a mag?
-matt

[manike]

blow forward spring returned. how is that totaly different than a mag?

That 'concept' is similar to the mag, but how it does it is totally different. Functionality wise it is totally different. You were saying that the valving and system is the same. It is not.

That 'concept' is similar to the BKO, Wrath and Legend too...

I'm guessing you will need to wait and see, I think you are going to need to see pictures to understand. You obviously don't get it from what I am trying to describe to you.

The bolt guide is more like the pin in a quest, than the powertube in a mag. The bolt guide does NOT work like the power tube in the mag, in that the bolt does not seal or ride down the inside of the tube. It has o-rings on the outside of it. The air coming out of the bolt guide does not affect the bolts movement until the bolt is completely at the end of it's travel. The gas would be released even if the bolt did not move forwards. The 'bolt guide' is actually more like the old powertube of a nelspot gun in how it routes the air.

Bah, I'm done trying to explain it. Wait for the pictures. :)

[magmonkey]

I am waiting for more than picture..... I can't wait to have one in my hands to pull appart :)

[K9nerOPs]

Sorry for kinda going off topic but I Can't seem to find this data anywhere...

I'm In the market for a new tank for my new Invert Mini...I would like a Stubby tank (wanna keep this marker small over all)...

Do I buy A High Pressure (750psi) Or Low Pressure (450psi) Nitro tank...can I use either One? If not why?

Many Thanks In Advanced!!!

[the123]

Release date still on schedule for early December?

[Nate129]

Sorry for kinda going off topic but I Can't seem to find this data anywhere...

I'm In the market for a new tank for my new Invert Mini...I would like a Stubby tank (wanna keep this marker small over all)...

Do I buy A High Pressure (750psi) Or Low Pressure (450psi) Nitro tank...can I use either One? If not why?

Many Thanks In Advanced!!!

From what I have heard, you can use either - but a LP tank will work better. The Mini does have a reg, so a HP tank will work.

Rumors are around 1,500 shots from a 68/45.

[st6212]

From what I have heard, you can use either - but a LP tank will work better. The Mini does have a reg, so a HP tank will work.

Rumors are around 1,500 shots from a 68/45.

What I'd like to know is how does it work better. The Mini has a reg so psi through the gun isn't dictated by the type of tank you use, HP or LP.

So is the result just more shots per fill from a LP tank as opposed to HP?

Never really understood (not bothered) to understand how LP tanks work/help, when all LP markers have a reg to do the job anyway. Been using a mag always so was never concerned about it, but this will be my first LP marker when it arrives.

[Beemer]

You can make it light and small or big and heavy no matter to me if it is REALLY consistent cause you know what that equals. Whats extremely consistent? In other words whats the FPS on every ball at 15BPS?

[manike]

Sorry for kinda going off topic but I Can't seem to find this data anywhere...

I'm In the market for a new tank for my new Invert Mini...I would like a Stubby tank (wanna keep this marker small over all)...

Do I buy A High Pressure (750psi) Or Low Pressure (450psi) Nitro tank...can I use either One? If not why?

Many Thanks In Advanced!!!

You could use either, but I reccomend using a low pressure tank.

[K9nerOPs]

You could use either, but I reccomend using a low pressure tank.

Mankie if you don't mind me asking but why would you reccomend the LP tank?

Many Thanks In Advanced!!!

[DiRTyBuNNy]

Mankie if you don't mind me asking but why would you reccomend the LP tank?

Many Thanks In Advanced!!!

how about you take a guess at why?

--Mr. DB

[K9nerOPs]

how about you take a guess at why?

--Mr. DB


DB,
Why would you waste time on a reply like that? It's pointless and a waste of thread space. If you know the answer then please fill me in...I don't have time for guessing games...I want to make a purchase and want to know the reason why a LP tank was recommended that's it...

Sheez, people now or days!!!

If Manike cannot answer the reason why I'm sure he can explain why he cannot...

[Muzikman]

The simple answer. The gun runs on low pressure, because of that you would want a low pressure tank. You really don't need much more explanation unless you want to know the difference between high and low pressure.

[DiRTyBuNNy]

The simple answer. The gun runs on low pressure, because of that you would want a low pressure tank. You really don't need much more explanation unless you want to know the difference between high and low pressure.

Bingo. And nice to see you again, Muzik...it's been a long time...

--Mr. DB

[st6212]

The simple answer. The gun runs on low pressure, because of that you would want a low pressure tank. You really don't need much more explanation unless you want to know the difference between high and low pressure.

I believe what K9erOPs is trying to find out, which is the same questions I posed a few posts up but did not get a definitive answer, is what the advantage of using a LP tank with an LP marker is as opposed to a HP tank.

Yes, it's easy to say lp guns, use lp tanks. But all lp guns already have a reg that take the input pressure (low or high) and regulate it to lp needed for the gun to operate. So that would eliminate the gun from the equation, it would not matter what tank you use as the gun still operates under normal regulated conditions.

K9erOPs: Since noone has given a reason, this is my guess - using a hp tank will work fine, but because your regulating hp down to lp, that excess pressure is wasted everytime you pull the trigger. You'll get less shots out of your tank. Using a lp tank makes more efficient use and get more shots per fill.

Please correct me if I'm wrong and explain why/what the correct answer is.

[Muzikman]

That is part of it. They call it shooting deeper into a tank.

The thing you are looking for is consistency. The more consistent the air flow is, the more consistent the gun will be, there for more accurate.

There are certain pressures in which a reg likes to work within. If you shove too much pressure into the reg it has to work hard to regulate it down. If you don’t give it enough pressure you starve it and the gun doesn’t get enough air. The sweet spot on regs change based on design (usually spring rate). Either of these scenarios will result in inconsistencies. The magic number between regs is about 200psi.

Since I do not know the specifics of the MINI we will use numbers pulled out of thin air.

Say the gun operates at 150psi. There is an internal reg that regulates the pressure from some pressure greater than 150psi to 150psi. Now, as to not starve the regs you want about 200psi between regs, so you will not want a tank that puts out less than 350psi. If you start out with 4500psi in your tank, in a high pressure system you regulate that down to 800psi which then is regulated down to 150psi by the gun. Usually dumping 800psi into a 150psi reg will cause poor performance (based on what was stated above). If you start out with 4500psi in your tank and regulate it down to 450psi, as in a low pressure system, then you are more likely to find the guns reg sweet spot.

[K9nerOPs]

Muzikman,

That was the info I wanted to know, it was perfect...I understand why LP would be recommended...Thanks!!!

Now I have to decide which of the tree lp tanks to get:

DYE Stubby
Crossfire Stubby
CustomProducts Stubby

[manike]

From that list get the Crossfire... although I haven't tested a CP yet.

When you regulate gas you lose energy. The least number of stages the better.

The mini runs on 200psi MAX, and as Musik points out, you don't want/need more than a 200psi differential.

[rkjunior303]

From that list get the Crossfire... although I haven't tested a CP yet.

When you regulate gas you lose energy. The least number of stages the better.

The mini runs on 200psi MAX, and as Musik points out, you don't want/need more than a 200psi differential.

agreed. crossfire has some of the best flow rates in the industry. the dye tanks have had horrible recharge rates in the past.

[K9nerOPs]

Yeah I was gearing toward the crossfire as well...

thanks fellas!!! going shopping for a Crossfire Stubby...any recommendations on where to buy? (Sheez now I'm asking for too much!!!) :D

[Beemer]

The thing you are looking for is consistency. The more consistent the air flow is, the more consistent the gun will be, there for more accurate.


Guess quality regs will make a difference to. So let me ask again. With the best set up how consistent is this gun Really at 15BPS.

[Cameo]

Bah, I'm done trying to explain it. Wait for the pictures. :)

please don't stop....

I have learned more from this thread, and my brother explaining this thread; than I have learned in the past 3 years of being semi involved in paintball..

Muzik,
can you call me and explain that all to me agian, very slowly??? Or just call and say hi (yea that will do nicely).