Must read this.

[Tunaman]

This one just wrecked me...
Hope this invokes in you the emotions it invoked in me in appreciating what our military is sacrificing for us. Regardless of your feelings on this war, we are safer because of our military and they deserve our thoughts and prayers during this Holiday Season.

Ray "Frenchie" Quesnel
U.S.M.C. Alpha 1/5 '67-'69
Semper Fi


-----Original Message-----
From: PopFornicola@aol.com
To: Quesnel46@aol.com
Sent: Fri, 17 Nov 2006 7:51 AM
Subject: Fwd: FW: A Different Christmas Poem


In a message dated 11/17/2006 6:12:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, libestew1@yahoo.com writes:
A Different Christmas Poem
>>>>
>>>> The embers glowed softly, and in their dim light,
>>>> I gazed round the room and I cherished the sight.
>>>> My wife was asleep, her head on my chest,
>>>> My daughter beside me, angelic in rest.
>>>> Outside the snow fell, a blanket of white,
>>>> Transforming the yard to a winter delight.
>>>> The sparkling lights in the tree I believe,
>>>> Completed the magic that was Christmas Eve.
>>>> My eyelids were heavy, my breathing was deep,
>>>> Secure and surrounded by love I would sleep.
>>>> In perfect contentment, or so it would seem,
>>>> So I slumbered, perhaps I started to dream.
>>>>
>>>> The sound wasn't loud, and it wasn't too near,
>>>> But I opened my eyes when it tickled my ear.
>>>> Perhaps just a cough, I didn't quite know,
>>>> Then the sure sound of footsteps outside in the
>>>> snow. My soul gave a tremble, I struggled to hear,
>>>> And I crept to the door just to see who was near.
>>>> Standing out in the cold and the dark of the night,
>>>> A lone figure stood, his face weary and tight.
>>>>
>>>> A soldier, I puzzled, some twenty years old,
>>>> Perhaps a Marine, huddled here in the cold.
>>>> Alone in the dark, he looked up and smiled,
>>>> Standing watch over me, and my wife and my
>>>> child. "What are you doing?" I asked without
>>>> fear, "Come in this moment, it's freezing out here!
>>>> Put down your pack, brush the snow from your
>>>> sleeve, You should be at home on a cold
>>>> Christmas Eve!"
>>>>
>>>> For barely a moment I saw his eyes shift,
>>>> Away from the cold and the snow blown in
>>>> drifts. To the window that danced with a
>>>> warm fire's light, Then he sighed and he said
>>>> "Its really all right, I'm out here by choice. I'm
>>>> here every night."
>>>> "It's my duty to stand at the front of the line,
>>>> That separates you from the darkest of times.
>>>> No one had to ask or beg or implore me, I'm
>>>> proud to stand here like my fathers before me.
>>>> My Gramps died at 'Pearl on a day in December,"
>>>> Then he sighed, "that's a Christmas 'Gram
>>>> always remembers." My dad stood his watch
>>>> in the jungles of 'Nam', And now it is my turn
>>>> and so, here I am. I've not seen my own son in
>>>> more than a while, But my wife sends me
>>>> pictures, he's sure got her smile.
>>>>
>>>> Then he bent and he carefully pulled from
>>>> his bag, The red, white, and blue ... an American flag.
>>>> I can live through the cold and the being alone,
>>>> Away from my family, my house and my home. I
>>>> can stand at my post through the rain and the
>>>> sleet, I can sleep in a foxhole with little to eat.
>>>> I can carry the weight of killing another,
>>>> Or lay down my life with my sister and brother..
>>>> Who stand at the front against any and all,
>>>> To ensure for all time that this flag will not fall."
>>>>
>>>> "So go back inside," he said, "harbor no fright,
>>>> Your family is waiting and I'll be all right."
>>>>
>>>> "But isn't there something I can do, at the least,
>>>> "Give you money," I asked, "or prepare you a
>>>> feast? It seems all too little for all that you've done,
>>>> For being away from your wife and your son."
>>>>
>>>> Then his eye welled a tear that held no regret,
>>>> "Just tell us you love us, and never forget.
>>>> To fight for our rights back at home while we're gone,
>>>> To stand your own watch, no matter how long.
>>>> For when we come home, either standing or dead,
>>>> To know you remember we fought and we bled.
>>>> Is payment enough, and with that we will trust,
>>>> That we mattered to you as you mattered to us."
>>>> * * * * *
>>>> PLEASE, Would you do me the kind favor of
>>>> sending this to as many people as you can?
>>>> Christmas will be coming soon and some credit is due
>>>> to our US service men and women for our being
>>>> able to celebrate these festivities. Let's try in this
>>>> small way to pay a tiny bit of what we owe. Make
>>>> people stop and think of our heroes, living and
>>>> dead, who sacrificed themselves for us.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> LCDR Jeff Giles, SC, USN
>>>> 30th Naval Construction Regiment
>>>> OIC, Logistics Cell One
>>>> Al Taqqadum, Iraq

[evildead420]

On veterans day, i happen to take some pics for myself & a tribute to my grandfather who serviced the military during WW2. Ill add to this thread if u dont mind.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v134/evildead420/Nov10-12/GGcemetary.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v134/evildead420/Nov10-12/GGCsign.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v134/evildead420/Nov10-12/GGC.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v134/evildead420/Nov10-12/FlagsGraves.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v134/evildead420/Nov10-12/CUgroupgraves.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v134/evildead420/Nov10-12/MassGraves.jpg

http://myspace-967.vo.llnwd.net/01421/76/95/1421965967_l.jpg

:(

[Warwitch]

Right on brother! And I agree, it doesnt matter how you feel about our govts. decisions. Our troops are out there doing the job nobody else will. Say "thank you" once in a while :shooting:

[bentothejam1n]

i was just thinking about posting this... i liked it a lot
great pictures evildead

[ahellers]

thanks for posting that tuna and evildead. means alot. :cheers:
t

[evildead420]

this was one of those times were I felt really doing something for other people to appricate. GGC is just a few minutes away from my home and I always wanted to take stills there forever. That day was perfect to do it, and I was hungover as hell :spit_take i had a great time doing it, that place has such a wierd atmosphere cause of all the headstones. That was just one of the sides of the cemetery, its really huge. :(

[bentothejam1n]

as long as we are posting patriotic emails..
John McCain's remarks about the Pledge of Allegiance!

In light of the recent appeals court ruling in California, with respect to the Pledge of Allegiance, the following recollection from Senator John McCain is very appropriate:

"The Pledge of Allegiance" - by Senator John McCain


As you may know, I spent five and one half years as a prisoner of war during the Vietnam War. In the early years of our imprisonment, the NVA kept us in solitary confinement
or two or three to a cell. In 1971 the NVA moved us from these conditions of isolation into large rooms with as many as 30 to 40 men to a room.

This was, as you can imagine, a wonderful change and was a direct result of the efforts of millions of Americans onbehalf of a few hundred POWs 10,000 miles from home.

One of the men who moved into my room was a young man named Mike Christian.

Mike came from a small town near Selma , Alabama He didn't wear a pair of shoes until he was 13 years old. At 17, he enlisted in the US Navy. He later earned a commission by going to Officer Training School Then he became a Naval Flight Officer and was shot down and captured in 1967. Mike had a keen and deep appreciation of the opportunities this country and our military provide for people who want to work and want to succeed.

As part
of the change in treatment, the Vietnamese allowed some prisoners to receive packages from home. In some of these packages were handkerchiefs, scarves and other items of clothing.

Mike got himself a bamboo needle. Over a period of a couple of months, he created an American flag and sewed on the inside of his shirt.

Every afternoon, before we had a bowl of soup, we would hang Mike's shirt on the wall of the cell and say the Pledge of Allegiance.

I know the Pledge of Allegiance may not seem the most important part of our day now, but I can assure you that in that stark cell it was indeed the most important and meaningful event.

One day the Vietnamese searched our cell, as they did periodically, and discovered Mike's shirt with the flag sewn inside, and removed it.

That evening they returned, opened the door
of the cell, and for the benefit of all of us, beat Mike Christian severely for the next couple of hours Then, they opened the door of the cell and threw him in. We cleaned him up as well as we could.

The cell in which we lived had a concrete slab in the middle on which we slept Four naked light bulbs hung in each corner of the room.

As I said, we tried to clean up Mike as well as we could. After the excitement died down, I looked in the corner of the room, and sitting there beneath that dim light bulb with a piece of red cloth, another shirt and his bamboo needle, was my friend, Mike Christian. He was sitting there with his eyes almost shut from the beating he had received, making another American flag. He was not making the flag because it made Mike Christian feel better. He was making that flag because he knew how important it was to us to be able to Pledge our allegiance to our flag and country.

So the next time you say the Pledge of
Allegiance, you must never forget the sacrifice and courage that thousands of Americans have made to build our nation and promote freedom around the world.

You must remember our duty, our honor, and our country

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

[-Tab]

That was some powerful stuff.
I haven't completely decided if I want to be a Marine yet, but everytime I see stuff like this, it makes the calling stronger.

Everytime I hear about war protests and people who don't support our troops, I wanna snap. Very few things upset me more than being unpatriotic.

Thanks for the great post!

[Recon by Fire]

:cheers:

[KC]

Im posting it on txzr2.com

What a tribute. :cheers:

[MedicDVG]

I am currently in the process of pre-deployment as a civilian paramedic to Iraq. I will be at camp anaconda sometime in the next two weeks. While I am not a soldier, I certainly thank those that serve, and I hope that I can contribute in some small way to thier mission while I am there.

[Tunaman]

I am currently in the process of pre-deployment as a civilian paramedic to Iraq. I will be at camp anaconda sometime in the next two weeks. While I am not a soldier, I certainly thank those that serve, and I hope that I can contribute in some small way to thier mission while I am there.You are a soldier Bro...in my eyes. You enlisted to help out and you are doing just that. Now "Git 'er Done" and get back safe. Thanks for your service. ;)

[kosmo]

Everytime I hear about war protests and people who don't support our troops, I wanna snap. Very few things upset me more than being unpatriotic.


Uh, move often than not, war protestors ARE supporting the troops, you dolt. As a soldier, I appreciate someone who says "We love our troops, stop getting them killed" much more than someone who says "Thanks for getting killed while installing useless, corrupt Islamic governments".

[warbeak2099]

Ooh-rah! I have the utmost respect for the Marine options in my ROTC unit. I know I could never do what they're doing and what they're going to do, especially Marine OCS.

And yes, send this to people. Maybe it'll get back to a service-man or woman. I was home for Columbus Day weekend and was in my SDB's (Service Dress Blues) after church. I went with my gf to pick up some orange juice from the supermarket and a woman stopped me outside. She just shook my hand and said thank you. I was dumbfounded. I couldn't think of anything to say except for "oh thank you ma'am". It felt amazing. I'm not even active duty, so to someone who is, showing them you support them doing their job feels fantastic. All it takes is a simple thank you.

[-Tab]

Uh, move often than not, war protestors ARE supporting the troops, you dolt. As a soldier, I appreciate someone who says "We love our troops, stop getting them killed" much more than someone who says "Thanks for getting killed while installing useless, corrupt Islamic governments".


Say what you want, but I've seen plenty of people that show direct hatred towards troops.
I realize you're a serviceman, so I can't argue with you a lot, but when I talk about people not showing support for our troops, I mean it.

[FiXeL]

Say what you want, but I've seen plenty of people that show direct hatred towards troops.
I realize you're a serviceman, so I can't argue with you a lot, but when I talk about people not showing support for our troops, I mean it.

Those people should not aim their hatred to the troops, but to the goverment that sends them. They are doing a job, to some not an admirable one but still needed in this time and age. Personally i do not support any military intervention, or violence to solve a conflict, but agree on the point that sometimes it is needed.

You should always honor those that have fought or are still fighting for freedom.

If it wasnt for all the allied troops that fell in europe in WWII, we would probably speak german now and live in a dictatorship where freedom is a luxury.

[-Tab]

Those people should not aim their hatred to the troops, but to the goverment that sends them. They are doing a job, to some not an admirable one but still needed in this time and age.
You should always honor those that have fought or are still fighting for freedom.



I couldn't agree with you more. And that is the reason that I cannot stand people who don't show support toward our troops.

[Tunaman]

Not to get Political or anything, but despite what some people think nobody wants a war. I dont, you dont, our President doesnt either. Nobody likes war. But there are far greater issues at stake for this country if the terrorists are not confronted. We didn't start it. They did. And we should finish the job completely. Hail to the Troops protecting the United States and her interests here and abroad. If we are all infidels and must die, then lets have at it. I don't think they know what they are up against. I wish they would call me up to go tomorrow. I'll be there. And I'll be bringing it too. ;)

[Recon by Fire]

From my former-soldier corner: Someone protesting does not in any way make me feel supported at all, it degrades my efforts and is detrimental to my morale. It is more insulting that people claim they support you while undermining you.

Not political, just from the heart.

[Army]

hooah

[ahellers]

From my former-soldier corner: Someone protesting does not in any way make me feel supported at all, it degrades my efforts and is detrimental to my morale. It is more insulting that people claim they support you while undermining you.

Not political, just from the heart.

agreed,
however I realize they have the right, but /\ thats how it makes me feel to.
t

[Mango]

http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/tear.gif

[Jonneh]

We didn't start it. They did.I'm sorry but this just is not true, please do not use misinformation as propaganda.

[Tunaman]

I'm sorry but this just is not true, please do not use misinformation as propaganda.a liberal is as a liberal does. They were blowing us up before you were even born little boy. Who did YOU get your information from? Your Teacher? :tard:

[bentothejam1n]

a liberal is as a liberal does. They were blowing us up before you were even born little boy. Who did YOU get your information from? Your Teacher? :tard:
i dont like president bush because my government teacher said that he is bad and i should hate him.








/sarcasm

[Recon by Fire]

I'm sorry but this just is not true, please do not use misinformation as propaganda.


Militant Islam started back prior to WW2; it was not long after that they started targeting the infidel, though the infidel was not their first target.

[Jonneh]

okay maybe I'm making enourmous assumptions but the most obvious interpretation one could have drawn from your statement was that 9/11 was the 'start' of this current conflict, which has nothing to do with iraq, but if you want to go that way I guess you could say that WE (we being christian europe) started IT with all those crusades.

[Recon by Fire]

...I guess you could say that WE (we being christian europe) started IT with all those crusades.


OMG! ROFL, you mean those Crusades that were started to liberate the Christians that were invaded and controlled by Islamic Turks?

Sir, place your ignorance on the ground and step back....


But don't let facts get in the way of illogical hate of Bush, Christians, USA, etc....


:cheers:

[1stdeadeye]

nice!

[bentothejam1n]

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/content/printer_friendly/mlb/y2006/m04/d24/c1415977.jsp
thats pretty good too

[Buff]

If it wasnt for all the allied troops that fell in europe in WWII, we would probably speak german now and live in a dictatorship where freedom is a luxury.

Try Russian......we'd all be speaking Ruskie :tard:

[Armory]

Try Russian......we'd all be speaking Ruskie :tard:
Actually no, Germans would have been able to direct more force into Russia with out having to support 3 fronts ans only 2 (Africa and Eastern, though Africa may have been won by Germany early).

Any way lets not focus on why we are in our current situation but rember that we all stand behind the troops that so readily defend this country reguardless of the cause.

[tropical_fishy]

From my former-soldier corner: Someone protesting does not in any way make me feel supported at all, it degrades my efforts and is detrimental to my morale. It is more insulting that people claim they support you while undermining you.

Not political, just from the heart.


Just out of curiousity, why? I really REALLY disagree with the war in Iraq, and I've protested it, but I've never shown ANY disrespect towards anyone in any part of the military. I did, in fact, meet a very nice marine on the train the other day. I guess I've always seen it as analogous to the "anti-gay" people; as long as they aren't telling me I'm going to Hell, or that God hates me and I'm evil, I'm all for them having their opinions and expressing them as they see fit, even if it IS in a parade against homosexuality. I'm not in the military, but as long as people aren't saying YOUR actions are evil, immoral, etc, then why take it personally? If you're secure in your choices, why let people who don't agree undermine them? If I were to stand here and say I don't agree with violence or war, and my idea of "supporting our troops" is to want them home, would that bother you?

I guess I just don't understand why people disagreeing with your choice of career (you've fought for people to be allowed to disagree) is enough to make you question everything.

[Recon by Fire]

Tropical_Fishy;

Most times I am in agreement with a QFT line in the movie Blackhawk Down; "They don't understand". Certainly everyone is free and welcome to fell however they wish concerning whatever topic. I likely won't explain this well but let me try; it does not matter what location, what the reason, the politics, etc...none of that matters. Put yourself in SHTF situation and all you have in this world is yourself and the men around you. The guy next to you, you might actually not care for at all or even hate. But when it counts you will do anything to bring him through it and he will do the same for you. Your life is literaly in the hands of another, do you trust them? We do. There exists a bond of comradery, ANY negative detraction from your accomplishments and efforts is more of an insult than any protestor who believes they are for the troops could ever comprehend.

[Beemer]

Tropical_Fishy;

Most times I am in agreement with a QFT line in the movie Blackhawk Down; "They don't understand".

True but some do and we are more then you think.


The Sands of Christmas

by Michael Marks.


I had no Christmas spirit when I breathed a weary sigh,
And looked across the table where the bills were piled too high.

The laundry wasn't finished and the car I had to fix,
My stocks were down another point, the Dolphins lost by six.

And so with only minutes till my son got home from school
I gave up on the drudgery and grabbed a wooden stool.

The burdens that I carried were about all I could take,
And so I flipped the TV on to catch a little break.

I came upon a desert scene in shades of tan and rust,
No snowflakes hung upon the wind, just clouds of swirling dust.

And where the reindeer should have stood before a laden sleigh,
Eight Hummers ran a column right behind an M1A.

A group of boys walked past the tank, not one was past his teens.
Their eyes were hard as polished flint, their faces drawn and lean.

They walked the street in armor with their rifles shouldered tight,
Their dearest wish for Christmas, just to have a silent night.

Other soldiers gathered, hunkered down against the wind,

To share a scrap of mail and dreams of going home again.

There wasn't much at all to put their lonely hearts at ease,
They had no Christmas turkey, just a pack of MREs.

They didn't have a garland or a stocking I could see,
They didn't need an ornament-- they lacked a Christmas Tree.

They didn't have a present even though it was tradition,
the only boxes I could see were labeled "ammunition."

I felt a little tug and found my son now by my side,
He asked me what it was I feared, and why it was I cried.

I swept him up into my arms and held him oh so near
and kissed him on the forehead as I whispered in his ear

There's nothing wrong my little son, for safe we sleep tonight,
Our heroes stand on foreign land to give us all the right,

To worry on the things in life that mean nothing at all,
Instead of wondering if we will be the next to fall.

He looked at me as children do and said its always right,
to thank the ones who help us and perhaps that we should write.

And so we pushed aside the bills and sat to draft a note,
to thank the many far from home, and this is what we wrote:

God Bless You all and keep you safe, and speed your way back home.
Remember that we love you so, and that you're not alone.

The gift you give you share with all, a present every day,
You give the gift of liberty and that we can't repay.

[Recon by Fire]

True but some do and we are more then you think.


yes, and there are many who claim they know but have never "been there, done that" so the claim is rather unfounded. It's impossible to say either way and have it apply as a blanket statement. It is purely individual thing and of course opinions vary!


Somewhat related: Recently a large number of us "BW cowboys" (LOL) were staying at a hotel. We learned that a group just checked in also that were "Iraq War Vets Against the War". My first thought was: "Should make for an interesting night in the hotel bar." My second thought was that this groups stance seemed so out of line to me (based on my personal feelings stated prior).

The hotel manager is a big supporter of ours and she told us that this group lied to her when making their reservations. I guess they listed themselves as "Vets for Vets". Rather than throw them out on the street upon arrival, she still honored their reservations but advised them of our group there and they should remain low key and if not there will be no choice in the matter and their group would be the ones evicted should there be any trouble. The weekend went without incident and actually I believe this other group spent their time partying and not protesting anyway.

But I did meet one of groups members; a female navy veteran who was aboard a ship in the Persian Gulf. I am proud of everyone who serves their country in any fashion and certainly do not mean to dismean anyones service, but forgive me if I will hold the opinion of our esteemed member, Army, over that of someone who was inconvenienced by the war and never actually enjoyed any Iraqi fine dust (sand). I'm sure she considered herself to be one of those that know...

:cheers:

[Tunaman]

Bravo! Bravo!!!! ;)

[tropical_fishy]

yes, and there are many who claim they know but have never "been there, done that" so the claim is rather unfounded. It's impossible to say either way and have it apply as a blanket statement. It is purely individual thing and of course opinions vary!


Somewhat related: Recently a large number of us "BW cowboys" (LOL) were staying at a hotel. We learned that a group just checked in also that were "Iraq War Vets Against the War". My first thought was: "Should make for an interesting night in the hotel bar." My second thought was that this groups stance seemed so out of line to me (based on my personal feelings stated prior).

The hotel manager is a big supporter of ours and she told us that this group lied to her when making their reservations. I guess they listed themselves as "Vets for Vets". Rather than throw them out on the street upon arrival, she still honored their reservations but advised them of our group there and they should remain low key and if not there will be no choice in the matter and their group would be the ones evicted should there be any trouble. The weekend went without incident and actually I believe this other group spent their time partying and not protesting anyway.

But I did meet one of groups members; a female navy veteran who was aboard a ship in the Persian Gulf. I am proud of everyone who serves their country in any fashion and certainly do not mean to dismean anyones service, but forgive me if I will hold the opinion of our esteemed member, Army, over that of someone who was inconvenienced by the war and never actually enjoyed any Iraqi fine dust (sand). I'm sure she considered herself to be one of those that know...

:cheers:


I don't know if that last part was directed at me or not; I certainly don't claim to know anything... I just stated that I don't understand why you'd let other people influence you in something you claim to feel so strongly about.

I respect what] military personnel do-- honestly, truly, fully. If I believed so fully, and so intensely in something, I can only hope that I would be strong enough to be willing to put my life on the line to fight for it. BUT, I don't believe in violence; I don't think I could ever, EVER kill another human being. I don't believe in war. I have issues with institutionalized sexism; don't even tell me there isn't sexism built into the military system. I philisophically disagree with almost everything about the military, but my issue is with the MILITARY, not soldiers, or saliors, or marines, etc. I disagree with the reasoning behind the war in Iraq, but that doens't mean I don't hope with all my heart that everyone comes home safely, and without psychological damage. I think that, perhaps, that's what the "Vets for Vets" group feels; they don't want innocent Americans dying for a war they don't believe in.

[Beemer]

Well I will just repeat this part again then. To you Recon Thankyou.

God Bless You all and keep you safe, and speed your way back home.
Remember that we love you so, and that you're not alone.

The gift you give you share with all, a present every day,
You give the gift of liberty and that we can't repay

And this from the first post.

Then his eye welled a tear that held no regret,
"Just tell us you love us, and never forget.
To fight for our rights back at home while we're gone,
To stand your own watch, no matter how long.
For when we come home, either standing or dead,
To know you remember we fought and we bled.
Is payment enough, and with that we will trust,
That we mattered to you as you mattered to us."
* * * * *


I don't think I could ever, EVER kill another human being. I don't believe in war.

You might be surprised at what you can do. Then again there are others doing the deeds outside the wall and we dont HAVE to.


but my issue is with the MILITARY, not soldiers, or saliors, or marines, etc.

Last I knew the Navy, Army, Airforce, Marines, Coastguard is the MILITARY.

Peace Out

[Triangle]

Last I knew the Navy, Army, Airforce, Marines, Coastguard is the MILITARY.

Peace Out

Go back and reread what fishy said.
I think you missed her point entirely.

[Beemer]

No No I did not.

[tropical_fishy]

No No I did not.


Yes, yes you did.

Let me lay this out for you, nice and simple-like. There are the people that make up the military, and then there is the military. Kind of like you have organs and cells, and then you have a body. The body is analagous to the military as a whole, and the cells or organs are analagous to the persons within the military. If a person decides to kill someone, you don't blame it on their spleen.

[behemoth]

Yes, yes you did.

Let me lay this out for you, nice and simple-like. There are the people that make up the military, and then there is the military. Kind of like you have organs and cells, and then you have a body. The body is analagous to the military as a whole, and the cells or organs are analagous to the persons within the military. If a person decides to kill someone, you don't blame it on their spleen.

Can we get the carpet squares and have nap-time now?

[Beemer]

Yes, yes you did.

Let me lay this out for you, nice and simple-like. There are the people that make up the military, and then there is the military. Kind of like you have organs and cells, and then you have a body. The body is analagous to the military as a whole, and the cells or organs are analagous to the persons within the military. If a person decides to kill someone, you don't blame it on their spleen.

analogous

No, No I didnt.

Well its all semantics to me. Its a package deal. If you dont like a part you dont get the deal. You could change the part you dont like I suppose. Cant live with out my spleen can I?

Peace Out

[Albinonewt]

I respect what] military personnel do-- honestly, truly, fully. If I believed so fully, and so intensely in something, I can only hope that I would be strong enough to be willing to put my life on the line to fight for it. BUT, I don't believe in violence; I don't think I could ever, EVER kill another human being. I don't believe in war. I have issues with institutionalized sexism; don't even tell me there isn't sexism built into the military system. I philisophically disagree with almost everything about the military, but my issue is with the MILITARY, not soldiers, or saliors, or marines, etc. I disagree with the reasoning behind the war in Iraq, but that doens't mean I don't hope with all my heart that everyone comes home safely, and without psychological damage. I think that, perhaps, that's what the "Vets for Vets" group feels; they don't want innocent Americans dying for a war they don't believe in.

So you support the troops, but you hate the institution that they've dedicated their lives to serving, their mission, their sexism, their violence, and just about everything else? No, it doesn't work like that. A great number of people think they can "support the troops" without supporting their mission and their cause and that isn't true. Just look at what you write, you want them to come home (admirable enough) but you don't even make mention of hoping for their victory. That's why a great number of service men and women do not see these protesters as being pro them, because you're really not. You think you are, but William Hung thinks he can sing.

[billybob_81067]

So you support the troops, but you hate the institution that they've dedicated their lives to serving, their mission, their sexism, their violence, and just about everything else? No, it doesn't work like that. A great number of people think they can "support the troops" without supporting their mission and their cause and that isn't true. Just look at what you write, you want them to come home (admirable enough) but you don't even make mention of hoping for their victory. That's why a great number of service men and women do not see these protesters as being pro them, because you're really not. You think you are, but William Hung thinks he can sing.


Wait... William Hung can't sing? :(

[beam]

So you support the troops, but you hate the institution that they've dedicated their lives to serving, their mission, their sexism, their violence, and just about everything else? No, it doesn't work like that. A great number of people think they can "support the troops" without supporting their mission and their cause and that isn't true. Just look at what you write, you want them to come home (admirable enough) but you don't even make mention of hoping for their victory. That's why a great number of service men and women do not see these protesters as being pro them, because you're really not. You think you are, but William Hung thinks he can sing.


That's really a great point newt...I've never really thought about it like that.

It is true that there is a great cry in this country for troops to come home, but where is the cheer for victory?

[tropical_fishy]

So you support the troops, but you hate the institution that they've dedicated their lives to serving, their mission, their sexism, their violence, and just about everything else? No, it doesn't work like that. A great number of people think they can "support the troops" without supporting their mission and their cause and that isn't true. Just look at what you write, you want them to come home (admirable enough) but you don't even make mention of hoping for their victory. That's why a great number of service men and women do not see these protesters as being pro them, because you're really not. You think you are, but William Hung thinks he can sing.


I don't mention their victory because I don't know what victory would be in this case. I want them to come home safely because that's a concrete, tangible thing I can say... there is nothing ANYONE can say to define the end of the "war on terror." This war is a new kind of war, defined by a new kind of world. What is winning it? Killing all the terrorists? Then there will never be victory. Killing/arresting lots of terrorists? I'd support part of that. I haven't the slightest how to define victory, nor does anyone else, so why would I hope for something I can't put my finger on?

I don't like things about the military, I think I've made that perfectly clear. But I don't hate people for NOT disliking it. I think it's admirable if someone feels so strongly about something as to lay down their life for it. I don't dislike people for placing their belief in something I don't like or don't believe in... I don't believe in the Christian God, but I don't hate Christians for their belief; I don't like certain facets of Christianity, but why would I hate Christians because they don't agree? It's the same thing with servicemen/women. I don't hate them for their beliefs, I admire them for their faith, even if I don't agree with it.

[Albinonewt]

You don't hate them for their service? How could anyone think that that wasn't support?

[tropical_fishy]

You don't hate them for their service? How could anyone think that that wasn't support?


Think what you want. We seem to have very different definitions of "support." Mine is not hating someone for what they choose to do with their life, hoping everything turns out favorably for them, and admiring them for their faith in an ideal. Yours is... well, I'm not entirely certain.

[Albinonewt]

I don't mention their victory because I don't know what victory would be in this case. I want them to come home safely because that's a concrete, tangible thing I can say... there is nothing ANYONE can say to define the end of the "war on terror." This war is a new kind of war, defined by a new kind of world. What is winning it? Killing all the terrorists? Then there will never be victory. Killing/arresting lots of terrorists? I'd support part of that. I haven't the slightest how to define victory, nor does anyone else, so why would I hope for something I can't put my finger on?

Now that I have a moment, let me go back to this. This "I don't know what victory looks like" is a cop out. WHo cares? In 1939 nobody knew that victory was going to look like Yalta, but that didn't keep people from being for victory. It is rare that you know, going into a conflict, what victory will look like. However, that doesn't, and shouldn't, keep anyone from being for victory.

[quote=Tropical FishyI don't like things about the military, I think I've made that perfectly clear. But I don't hate people for NOT disliking it. I think it's admirable if someone feels so strongly about something as to lay down their life for it. I don't dislike people for placing their belief in something I don't like or don't believe in... I don't believe in the Christian God, but I don't hate Christians for their belief; I don't like certain facets of Christianity, but why would I hate Christians because they don't agree? It's the same thing with servicemen/women. I don't hate them for their beliefs, I admire them for their faith, even if I don't agree with it.[/QUOTE]

ANd somehow in your mind this translates into support. I don't know how you've made that leap in logic, but good for you.

[Albinonewt]

Think what you want. We seem to have very different definitions of "support." Mine is not hating someone for what they choose to do with their life, hoping everything turns out favorably for them, and admiring them for their faith in an ideal. Yours is... well, I'm not entirely certain.


That's not support. What you've described can be charitably referred to as apathy, which is about as far away from support as you can get without actually joining the other side. Why should our soldiers be grateful for your brand of "support"?

You asked Recon why he doesn't feel supported by protesters like you. Give your answers here how can you possibly even need to ask that question?

[tropical_fishy]

Now that I have a moment, let me go back to this. This "I don't know what victory looks like" is a cop out. WHo cares? In 1939 nobody knew that victory was going to look like Yalta, but that didn't keep people from being for victory. It is rare that you know, going into a conflict, what victory will look like. However, that doesn't, and shouldn't, keep anyone from being for victory.

What if "victory" looks like a nuclear wasteland in the Middle East? What if it looks like a scene straight out of Farenheit 451 or 1984? I couldn't support that either. Without some kind of certainty, how can we honestly know whether or not we'd support what would happen given a victory? So untill I know what it would look like, I'll say what I said before: I hope none of our troops suffer or die; I hope they all come home safely to their families, and I hope that people continue to treat them with respect.

[Albinonewt]

Definitions of support on the Web:

the activity of providing for or maintaining by supplying with money or necessities; "his support kept the family together"; "they gave him emotional support during difficult times"
give moral or psychological support, aid, or courage to; "She supported him during the illness"; "Her children always backed her up"
aiding the cause or policy or interests of; "the president no longer had the support of his own party"; "they developed a scheme of mutual support"
support materially or financially; "he does not support his natural children"; "The scholarship supported me when I was in college"
something providing immaterial assistance to a person or cause or interest; "the policy found little public support"; "his faith was all the support he needed"; "the team enjoyed the support of their fans"
back: be behind; approve of; "He plumped for the Labor Party"; "I backed Kennedy in 1960"
a military operation (often involving new supplies of men and materiel) to strengthen a military force or aid in the performance of its mission; "they called for artillery support"
hold: be the physical support of; carry the weight of; "The beam holds up the roof"; "He supported me with one hand while I balanced on the beam"; "What's holding that mirror?"
documentation: documentary validation; "his documentation of the results was excellent"; "the strongest support for this view is the work of Jones"
confirm: establish or strengthen as with new evidence or facts; "his story confirmed my doubts"; "The evidence supports the defendant"
subscribe: adopt as a belief; "I subscribe to your view on abortion"
the financial means whereby one lives; "each child was expected to pay for their keep"; "he applied to the state for support"; "he could no longer earn his own livelihood"
supporting structure that holds up or provides a foundation; "the statue stood on a marble support"
corroborate: support with evidence or authority or make more certain or confirm; "The stories and claims were born out by the evidence"
defend: argue or speak in defense of; "She supported the motion to strike"
the act of bearing the weight of or strengthening; "he leaned against the wall for support"
accompaniment: a subordinate musical part; provides background for more important parts
play a subordinate role to (another performer); "Olivier supported Gielgud beautifully in the second act"
patronize: be a regular customer or client of; "We patronize this store"; "Our sponsor kept our art studio going for as long as he could"
any device that bears the weight of another thing; "there was no place to attach supports for a shelf"
digest: put up with something or somebody unpleasant; "I cannot bear his constant criticism"; "The new secretary had to endure a lot of unprofessional remarks"; "he learned to tolerate the heat"; "She stuck out two years in a miserable marriage"
financial resources provided to make some project possible; "the foundation provided support for the experiment"


Google Definition (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3A+support)

Google has more then 20 defintions for support. None of them are "Not hating someone for doing something".

[Albinonewt]

What if "victory" looks like a nuclear wasteland in the Middle East? What if it looks like a scene straight out of Farenheit 451 or 1984? I couldn't support that either. Without some kind of certainty, how can we honestly know whether or not we'd support what would happen given a victory? So untill I know what it would look like, I'll say what I said before: I hope none of our troops suffer or die; I hope they all come home safely to their families, and I hope that people continue to treat them with respect.


Like I said, a cop out.

[tropical_fishy]

Like I said, a cop out.


I don't understand why it's a cop out. Clarify, please.

[890SHAWN]

I don't understand why it's a cop out. Clarify, please.

I am a disabled veteran, I served in the U.S Army for seven years with sixteen months in the Gulf. I came back CONUS by way of Walter Reed Memorial Hospital in D.C. I was in 82nd Air attached to 24th Infantry Division and saw a lot of action.
Support DOES NOT mean "not hating", it means getting behind the troops who are there for YOU, helping the families of servicemen and women in harms way for YOU, PRAYING for the safe return of our troops, and thanking GOD that YOU are not standing on the sand being shot at like they are.
If you really want to learn what the word support means take a day and go down the the Veteran's Hospital and see the broken bodies and lives forever changed to "support" YOU at home. Go to Arlington Cemetary and look at the sea of white crosses that represent a life laid down to "support" YOU.
We all want peace and freedom but neither are free- there is a price to be paid!

[tropical_fishy]

I am a disabled veteran, I served in the U.S Army for seven years with sixteen months in the Gulf. I came back CONUS by way of Walter Reed Memorial Hospital in D.C. I was in 82nd Air attached to 24th Infantry Division and saw a lot of action.
Support DOES NOT mean "not hating", it means getting behind the troops who are there for YOU, helping the families of servicemen and women in harms way for YOU, PRAYING for the safe return of our troops, and thanking GOD that YOU are not standing on the sand being shot at like they are.
If you really want to learn what the word support means take a day and go down the the Veteran's Hospital and see the broken bodies and lives forever changed to "support" YOU at home. Go to Arlington Cemetary and look at the sea of white crosses that represent a life laid down to "support" YOU.
We all want peace and freedom but neither are free- there is a price to be paid!


And I still don't see where I haven't been adament about how much I hope and pray that all of our troops come home safely. I don't see how my distaste for violence indicates anything BUT support for the HUMAN BEINGS that make up our armed forces. I don't want Americans fighting or dying unnecessarily. You've latched on to my statement that I don't hate them; the only reason I feel the need to say that is because people accuse me of "hating" our troops, and I want to make it clear that I don't.

[Albinonewt]

I don't understand why it's a cop out. Clarify, please.

It's simple really. Instead of being supportive of your nation's soldiers at a time of way you've concocted far fetched and ridiculous scenario in order to excuse yourself from having to support victory. To think that any reasonable (and often stated) criteria for victory would be satisified by escalating a conventionally armed counter insurgency war into a nuke contest against mostly civiliians with 150,000 of our soldiers in the blast zone is simply stupid.

It's ok to admit that you don't care one way or the other if our soldier's mission is successful, but don't pretend that that's somehow support.

[Albinonewt]

And I still don't see where I haven't been adament about how much I hope and pray that all of our troops come home safely. I don't see how my distaste for violence indicates anything BUT support for the HUMAN BEINGS that make up our armed forces. I don't want Americans fighting or dying unnecessarily. You've latched on to my statement that I don't hate them; the only reason I feel the need to say that is because people accuse me of "hating" our troops, and I want to make it clear that I don't.

WEll, if you're support if for "human beings" that means you must also support the people that are killing our soldiers, and I don't think too many of our men and women in harm's way are going to be too appreciative of that.

What you've advocating is a pretty standard pacifistic dovish no war stance. There's nothing wrong with that, but saying you don't want there to be violence is a far cry from being supportive of our soldiers.

[tropical_fishy]

It's simple really. Instead of being supportive of your nation's soldiers at a time of way you've concocted far fetched and ridiculous scenario in order to excuse yourself from having to support victory. To think that any reasonable (and often stated) criteria for victory would be satisified by escalating a conventionally armed counter insurgency war into a nuke contest against mostly civiliians with 150,000 of our soldiers in the blast zone is simply stupid.

It's ok to admit that you don't care one way or the other if our soldier's mission is successful, but don't pretend that that's somehow support.


This is interesting, because I just came up with two random scenarios about what could happen... I didn't mean that I thought either of them would. Yes, they're far-fetched and ridiculous, but I was in class, and that was all I could think up while still half-listening to the professor. Here's my issue with "victory:" 1. there hasn't ever been a war like this before. We don't know how to effectively fight it, nor do we know how to win it. Hell, we don't have a specific target; it's vaguely "terrorists." Most people would even have a tough time defining that term, because it's going to end up being either WAY general, or way specific. 2. I suspect that a lot of people will only be happy when the middle east is entirely westernized and Islam effectively wiped out; I don't like that at all. I think we should be wary of extremists of every flavor, not just Islamic extremists. 3. What's next? What if this war goes on forever and ever and ever, and our children's children's children are fighting it, without a sense of what happened to cause it? So many people will die fighting this war.

You say it's okay to admit I don't care one way or the other, but I truly do. The war on terror is the defining issue of my generation; I have to care. I care whether we "win" or "lose," I care about the troops we lose, and yeah, I even care about the people we kill, because I cannot begin to imagine what it would be like, psychologically, to take someone's life. I have friends in the middle east; I have friends training to go to the middle east. I just want to know what I'm signing up for before I say, wholeheartedly, "I am for this." I want people to be safe, I want peace, freedom, etc, etc, but you can't fight for peace.

[FactsOfLife]

oooh oooh can I play too?

[BeaverEater]

Well this war will not go on forever if we actually strike hard. The media has played too big of a part in the Iraq AND afgahnistan war to effectively have us win. People don't understand war and never will unless you've been in the middle of it all. Yes you can say you want the troops to come home, but if they pack up and leave, this war will follow us back here, not to mention leave a mess that will have to be cleaned up again but even worse. We can win but we will just have to crack down. It wont last forever, just look at england and their fight with the IRA

[Albinonewt]

This is interesting, because I just came up with two random scenarios about what could happen... I didn't mean that I thought either of them would. Yes, they're far-fetched and ridiculous, but I was in class, and that was all I could think up while still half-listening to the professor.

So admit that you’re concocting nonsense and using that as a crutch with which to avoid any support of victory. Don’t look now, but, cop-out.


Here's my issue with "victory:" 1. there hasn't ever been a war like this before. We don't know how to effectively fight it, nor do we know how to win it.

The same way you fight and win all wars, by killing the enemy until they stop fighting.


Hell, we don't have a specific target; it's vaguely "terrorists."

Um, they’re guy armed with weapons trying to kill our soldiers and civilians. That’s not vague, that’s about as specific as you can get without knowing the guy’s name, which in many cases we actually do know their names.


Most people would even have a tough time defining that term, because it's going to end up being either WAY general, or way specific.

No, not most people. Just the moral relativists and doves. Everyone else understands who is and is not a terrorist.


2. I suspect that a lot of people will only be happy when the middle east is entirely westernized and Islam effectively wiped out;

Militant Fundamentalist Islam. With the possible exception of Ann Coulter nobody’s goal is to eliminate Islam. The goal isn’t even westernization so much as a freedom for previously oppressed people.


I don't like that at all. I think we should be wary of extremists of every flavor, not just Islamic extremists.

Hence the moral equivalence. All extremists are just as bad, whether they say they don’t like same sex marriage and abortion (Christians) or blow up school children because they think Allah wants them too. It’s all the same to you, right?


3. What's next? What if this war goes on forever and ever and ever, and our children's children's children are fighting it, without a sense of what happened to cause it? So many people will die fighting this war.

Even if that was the case, which it isn't, it’s better then the alternative, losing. Losing the war will be far worse and have ramifications that last for decades. And no fewer lives will be lost.


You say it's okay to admit I don't care one way or the other, but I truly do.

You’re little screed up there says otherwise.


The war on terror is the defining issue of my generation; I have to care. I care whether we "win" or "lose,"

That’s a complete 180 from everything else you’ve said. You’re lying.


I care about the troops we lose, and yeah, I even care about the people we kill, because I cannot begin to imagine what it would be like, psychologically, to take someone's life. I have friends in the middle east; I have friends training to go to the middle east. I just want to know what I'm signing up for before I say, wholeheartedly, "I am for this." I want people to be safe, I want peace, freedom, etc, etc, but you can't fight for peace.

The only way to achieve peace is often fighting for it. You don’t care about victory or winning and you’ve made that clear. You care about a utopian vision that you want to just magically happen, and it won’t. Nothing is wrong with living in your fantasy land, but don’t pretend your flights of fancy is supporting anyone. The closest you come to supporting anyone is supporting the enemy by protesting and undermining the US efforts.

[tropical_fishy]

So admit that you’re concocting nonsense and using that as a crutch with which to avoid any support of victory. Don’t look now, but, cop-out.

Kay, sure. It's far too early to deal with that, so I'm leaving it be for now.




The same way you fight and win all wars, by killing the enemy until they stop fighting.
That worked well in Vietnam and Cambodia.




Hence the moral equivalence. All extremists are just as bad, whether they say they don’t like same sex marriage and abortion (Christians) or blow up school children because they think Allah wants them too. It’s all the same to you, right?

Christians who are anti-gay marriage and abortion are HARDLY the same as Islamic extremists. Wow. I'm anti-extremist Christians who blow up abortion clinics and kill doctors; I'm anti-extremist liberals/socialists/etc who obtain excessive amounts of weaponry and dominate South American countries. Can we at least agree on that much? Extremism, in any flavor, to the point of violence is a really bad thing.




Even if that was the case, which it isn't, it’s better then the alternative, losing. Losing the war will be far worse and have ramifications that last for decades. And no fewer lives will be lost.

So what defines losing?




You’re little screed up there says otherwise.

Kindly do not tell me what I do or do not believe in. It is not your place, nor is it polite. I am more than willing to have a discussion, but I will not be told what I believe, especially when I've only gotten two hours of sleep.




That’s a complete 180 from everything else you’ve said. You’re lying.

I don't see how saying that the war on terror is the defining issue of my generation and I care whether we "win" or "lose" is doing a complete 180. Cut the ad hominem arguing.

If we "lose" this conflict, the world will be destabilized in a way it has not been for a very long time, if ever. If America's power is undercut by this conflict, I will be growing up in a very different world than you did. That alone makes me care; it will be unprecidented. I've already discussed what my issues are with the phrase "winning," so I won't repeat them. If you feel so inclined, go back and try reading them with an open mind.



The only way to achieve peace is often fighting for it. You don’t care about victory or winning and you’ve made that clear. You care about a utopian vision that you want to just magically happen, and it won’t. Nothing is wrong with living in your fantasy land, but don’t pretend your flights of fancy is supporting anyone. The closest you come to supporting anyone is supporting the enemy by protesting and undermining the US efforts.

Okay, a few things:

1. I've never protested the war.
2. I believe everyone should have a utopian idea of society; without ideals, we have nothing to build our morals foundations on. America is not perfect, but the ideals it was founded upon, imho, are very nearly perfect. Human error causes the inability to create a utopian society, but that doesn't mean we can't strive for perfection.
3. I do support, and I will continue to support, our armed forces. When I do meet someone who does serve, albeit rarely, I always thank them for their service; I believe that they do an incredibly honorable thing for what they believe in. I can support someone in their belief in X religion even if I don't believe; I can support someone's personal decision and sacrifice even if it is not the one I would have made in the same situation.

[Albinonewt]

Kay, sure. It's far too early to deal with that, so I'm leaving it be for now.
So, you’ve run out of “explanations” for your prattling. I knew it would happen eventually.



That worked well in Vietnam and Cambodia.
Shows what you know, it was working just fine. The problem was, and it’s a problem again in this war, that political considerations were given more weight then military considerations.



Christians who are anti-gay marriage and abortion are HARDLY the same as Islamic extremists. Wow. I'm anti-extremist Christians who blow up abortion clinics and kill doctors; I'm anti-extremist liberals/socialists/etc who obtain excessive amounts of weaponry and dominate South American countries. Can we at least agree on that much? Extremism, in any flavor, to the point of violence is a really bad thing.
No, you continue to throw around the extremist label as if it applies evenly across the board. There have been how many Christian fundamentalists blowing up abortion clinics in the last decade? With the exception of the Atlanta bomber (who’s name escapes me) there haven’t been any that I can think of. On the other hand Islamic fundamentalists deploy, throughout the world, dozens of bombs a week. They are not the same.



So what defines losing?
It’s pretty much the opposite of victory. In Iraq’s case it would be pulling out before victory. In the more general war on terror it’s giving up and allowing additional attacks.



Kindly do not tell me what I do or do not believe in. It is not your place, nor is it polite. I am more than willing to have a discussion, but I will not be told what I believe, especially when I've only gotten two hours of sleep.
Then kindly stop lying about it.



I don't see how saying that the war on terror is the defining issue of my generation and I care whether we "win" or "lose" is doing a complete 180. Cut the ad hominem arguing.
You’ve clearly stated that you don’t want victory because you can’t figure out what it is and in the next breath talk about how much you care about winning. Again, you’re lying.


If we "lose" this conflict, the world will be destabilized in a way it has not been for a very long time, if ever. If America's power is undercut by this conflict, I will be growing up in a very different world than you did. That alone makes me care; it will be unprecidented. I've already discussed what my issues are with the phrase "winning," so I won't repeat them. If you feel so inclined, go back and try reading them with an open mind.
There you go again, 10 seconds ago you were all for winning, and now you have issues with it.

Quote:



1. I've never protested the war.

Liar

You said


Just out of curiousity, why? I really REALLY disagree with the war in Iraq, and I've protested it, but I've never shown ANY disrespect towards anyone in any part of the military.


2. I believe everyone should have a utopian idea of society; without ideals, we have nothing to build our morals foundations on. America is not perfect, but the ideals it was founded upon, imho, are very nearly perfect. Human error causes the inability to create a utopian society, but that doesn't mean we can't strive for perfection.

Uh-huh, and that very viewpoint clashes directly with your claim that you hope American soldiers win. The perfect utopia that so many on the far left believe in will never come to fruition without wars against evil regimes like Saddam Hussain’s. You may want a utopia, but you want it to show up magically, which is a fantasy.


3. I do support, and I will continue to support, our armed forces. When I do meet someone who does serve, albeit rarely, I always thank them for their service; I believe that they do an incredibly honorable thing for what they believe in. I can support someone in their belief in X religion even if I don't believe; I can support someone's personal decision and sacrifice even if it is not the one I would have made in the same situation.

You’ll keep on not hating them and protesting what they’re fighting for? Gee thanks Fishy, our soldiers would be lost without you.

[billybob_81067]

T.F. I don't hate you... :)

Will you not hate me too?

[MedicDVG]

I have not joined into this discussion up to now, but I fear I must.

Supporting our troops is not a magnet on the back of your car, it is not "praying that they get home safe", it is not wishing for a "utopian" world view.

Support of our troops is giving them the tools in material and funds to complete the mission.

Support of the troops is understanding the sacrifice that is placed upon them as they go in harms way to protect our cushy, liberal, effed up, california perverted lifestyle with all the trimmings.

I understand your abhorance with violence. I too abhor violence. In fact I don't konw a soldier alive who willingly enters into armed conflict. It is one of the most true statements in the world that no one hates war more then the warriors.

I am a civilian. I am going to Iraq. I leave sunday.

I am going to support my troops. I am going as a medic; a healer. I am going in order to contribute what I beleive is my duty to my fellow Americans who are there protecting this country. I don't say this to toot my own horn. But Frankly, if you are not ready to put EVERYTHING on the line, somehow you are less qualified to render an opinion.


and in the words of the famous Forrest Gump... "and thats all I have to say about that."

[kosmo]

"So you support the troops, but you hate the institution that they've dedicated their lives to serving, their mission, their sexism, their violence, and just about everything else? No, it doesn't work like that."

Uh, yes it does. I hate the institution, sexism, and especially the mission. Yet Ive done more to support it than your flag waving butt ever will.

[Albinonewt]

Uh, yes it does. I hate the institution, sexism, and especially the mission. Yet Ive done more to support it than your flag waving butt ever will.

You know, in all my life growing up around the military and supporting the military in any way I can think of I have never come across a serviceman who’s service I wasn’t grateful for. Kosmo is the one exception to this rule. The bile that you spill not just for your commander in chief, not just for the institution that you serve, and not just for the mission but also for the soldiers that serve with you is incomprehensible to me. Never have I seen any active service member whose hatred of his chosen path has caused him to disparage his fellow soldiers the way that you do. Further, I've never seen an active duty service men use the phrase "flag waving" almost as a swear word as you just did. I don't know if your hatred of the military has grown to the point that you no longer love your country or not, but at this point it wouldn't surprise me. If you display any amount of the attitude and hostility in theatre as you do here the mission would be better off with you flipping burgers in Berkley then it is with you serving.

My whole life all I wanted to do is serve, but because of health reasons I couldn’t. You have the opportunity I’ve always wanted and all you can do is badmouth it and the heroes you are surrounded by. You are a disgrace.

[Recon by Fire]

What if "victory" looks like a nuclear wasteland in the Middle East?



No, victory is not a nuclear wasteland in the Middle East, it is the smell of napalm in the morning. Robert Duvall says so!


:cheers:



You guys (and gal) are just arguing beliefs and such. My point earlier is that it doesn't matter what is in your heart and mind, your actions do not make us feel support, warm and fuzzy inside. Just the way it is, no politics.


:cheers:


Now lets have a big AO hug....

[kosmo]

blah blah blah, etc.

My point still stands, as of yet uncorrected. Also, youre being quite hypocritical. All you seem to give a crap about is your precious administrations ridiculous attempts at foreign policy, and not the individual soldiers lives that its affecting. Then you say that if someone cares more about the individual soldiers than the stupid policy theyre enforcing, then that persons concern doesnt count for anything due to them badmouthing your holy leader. Thats pathetic. Youre pathetic. If you want to serve so bad, go join the Red Cross or something, theres plenty of other options open to you. Or you can continue to sit on your butt and pretend to own the e&d, looking down on everyone who disagrees with you. Your choice.

RBF, I know what you mean. The average soldier feels like you do, and thats a good thing. Its a lot easier for a soldier to assume that what they are doing is right and the people disagreeing with it are crazy, because if they figure out that its wrong then theyll end up as disgruntled as I am. It sucks butt watching your friends die and putting your own life on the line for something you dont believe in.

[Albinonewt]

My point still stands, as of yet uncorrected.

You’re point is you hate the military and you don’t mind anyone else hating it. Yes, I suppose that does stand uncorrected.


Also, youre being quite hypocritical. All you seem to give a crap about is your precious administrations ridiculous attempts at foreign policy, and not the individual soldiers lives that its affecting.

Be honest, did you manage to say that with a straight face? Why am I even asking, of course you did, you probably even believe that. At the beginning of the conflict I was very much with the moves the administration was making in Iraq and the war on terror more generally. However as the war has continued my support of individual administration tactics has waned quite a bit to the point where I think President Bush is in serious jeopardy of losing this war. If you paid attention, or were honest, you wouldn’t say otherwise. And to think that I don’t care about the soldiers is just flatly false. I don’t ever go into how and what I do to show my support and for our soldiers, and I won’t now, but suffice to say you couldn’t be more wrong.


Then you say that if someone cares more about the individual soldiers than the stupid policy theyre enforcing, then that persons concern doesnt count for anything due to them badmouthing your holy leader.

That’s a blatant lie about what I’ve said and clearly colored by your hatred of the commander in chief and the military.


Thats pathetic. Youre pathetic. If you want to serve so bad, go join the Red Cross or something, theres plenty of other options open to you. Or you can continue to sit on your butt and pretend to own the e&d, looking down on everyone who disagrees with you. Your choice.

Thanks, but no. I do my small part, and if I could I would do more. You do your part, and if you could you would do less, and you constantly complain that you aren’t out doing less. Keep ranting though.

[kosmo]

That’s a blatant lie about what I’ve said and clearly colored by your hatred of the commander in chief and the military.



A great number of people think they can "support the troops" without supporting their mission and their cause and that isn't true

Hmmmm.... Nope, cant find any lie in what I said. You think people cant have concern for the individual soldiers without supporting the agenda theyre enforcing.


Thanks, but no. I do my small part, and if I could I would do more. You do your part, and if you could you would do less, and you constantly complain that you aren’t out doing less.
I complain not because Im doing too much helping, I complain that the way we are helping is wrong, ineffective, and costing many lives while not benefitting our country or theirs. You also know very well that you can do more, but you dont want to and are choosing not to. Why not? Family or health a bigger priority to you? It was to a lot of the people who died over here, too.

[Albinonewt]

Hmmmm.... Nope, cant find any lie in what I said. You think people cant have concern for the individual soldiers without supporting the agenda theyre enforcing.
Again, you’re lying about what I said. I didn’t say you can’t have concern for our soldiers without supporting the mission. In fact I was quite clear that merely having concern for our soldiers, ie wishing they come home safe, isn’t the same as support and the two are different. You choose to equate the two, probably because you don’t support the mission so you could care less if anyone else does, but they are not the same.

I complain not because Im doing too much helping, I complain that the way we are helping is wrong, ineffective, and costing many lives while not benefitting our country or theirs.

You complain that stop loss cost you your fiancée, stuck you in a country you don’t want to be in, and forced you to serve a year and a half longer then your contract. Not a single mention of how ineffective you felt with the current strategy. Don’t pretend your constant whining is something it isn’t. It isn’t constructive observations about how to do things better, its hateful and spiteful and not much more then that.


You also know very well that you can do more, but you dont want to and are choosing not to. Why not? Family or health a bigger priority to you? It was to a lot of the people who died over here, too.

Here’s where you’re without a leg to stand on. I’ve posted some about my more recent problem on Thor’s forum, so you may just be ignoring that so you can spew vitriol or you may be unaware. I live in constant chronic pain and there’s nothing that medical science can do for me but manage the pain (a little). I practically pass out from pain in any sort of extreme temperatures, I have to fall asleep by midnight or the pain keeps me up all night, I vomit corrosive bile on a pretty regular basis, I had to give up paintball because I can’t so much as do a bunker run without feeling my insides burning fire, and I all around have a pretty uncomfortable existence these days. A while after 9/11 I went to my cardiologist and asked to be checked out to see if the ticker healed with age like it was supposed to. It took more than a year for him to give me tentative go ahead. So a little while after that I decided to sign up to go to Iraq as a civilian administrator working for the Army. It takes quite a while sometimes to get approved for something like that (for those non-critical positions, like accountant) and by the time I got the call I spending most of my time in the hospital trying to find out why my insides were on fire. So, no, I’m doing all I’m likely to ever be able to do.

So, no, we don’t both very well know that I could do more. But thanks for making assumptions about something you know nothing about.

[evildead420]

wow, this thread went crazy.


Support our Troops :cheers:

[Albinonewt]

wow, this thread went crazy.


Support our Troops :cheers:


Well, to be honest, my intention was only to make clear that protesting the war and being against the war isn’t the same as supporting the troops. It appears I’ve made my point because as per traditional Fishy once she’s shut down she shuts up. Unfortunately, Kosmo has decided to do he does best, which is lie and spout nonsense.

[kosmo]

Again, you’re lying about what I said.

Kinda hard to lie about what you said when I quoted exactly what you wrote. Either way, youre wrong about what you think. When the mission is an extremely flawed politically and financially motivated crap-fest that is detrimental to the lives and safety of the soldiers, its quite impossible to be both for the soldier and for the mission. Unless youre for the extremely vague "war on terrorism" that had nothing to do with Iraq.


You complain that stop loss cost you your fiancée, stuck you in a country you don’t want to be in, and forced you to serve a year and a half longer then your contract.

All for a piss poor reason. It wouldve been a little easier to swallow if I were doing something valuable. Oh yeah, Im medically non-deployable, too. So is my brother who is in Baghdad. Funny how that works.


Here’s where you’re without a leg to stand on. I’ve posted some about my more recent problem on Thor’s forum, so you may just be ignoring that so you can spew vitriol or you may be unaware. I live in constant chronic pain and there’s nothing that medical science can do for me but manage the pain (a little). I practically pass out from pain in any sort of extreme temperatures, I have to fall asleep by midnight or the pain keeps me up all night, I vomit corrosive bile on a pretty regular basis, I had to give up paintball because I can’t so much as do a bunker run without feeling my insides burning fire, and I all around have a pretty uncomfortable existence these days. A while after 9/11 I went to my cardiologist and asked to be checked out to see if the ticker healed with age like it was supposed to. It took more than a year for him to give me tentative go ahead. So a little while after that I decided to sign up to go to Iraq as a civilian administrator working for the Army. It takes quite a while sometimes to get approved for something like that (for those non-critical positions, like accountant) and by the time I got the call I spending most of my time in the hospital trying to find out why my insides were on fire. So, no, I’m doing all I’m likely to ever be able to do.

Mustve missed reading that.

[warbeak2099]

Honestly I must agree that when people protest and then say they support the troops, it greatly demoralizes me. I know I don't have the right to speak about being in a combat situation or on the ground in Iraq, Afghanistan, or any of the regions in which our troops are serving. I'm only in Navy ROTC, but I'm still training to do a job. And whether I'm firing cruise missiles from an Arleigh Burke class Destroyer in support of Marines on the ground, or clearing mines on an Avenger class Minesweeper so Marines can land on shore and get the supplies they need, I will still be taking part in what our nation is doing.

When someone says that they disagree with the job I am training to do, and then says that they still support me as an individual, they are missing the point. And it really gets you down when people just don't understand what you're doing for them, or in my case, what you will be doing for them. On the flip side, when someone just says thank you, regardless of their political opinion, it feels amazing. So Fishy and others in this thread, if you want to support us, keep your opinions to yourself. It doesn't do us any good to hear them and it in fact demoralizes us. There's no good in making us feel like crap if you want us to do our jobs and get home safe.

And about there being sexism built into the military, you couldn;t be farther from the truth. I don't know how it is for the Army or Airforce, but in the Navy and Marine Corps, equality is a key ideal that is used every day. In fact, in the sailor's creed, Naval personel (marines and sailors) pledge to fight for equality and fair treatment of all people. In a unit, you see this in real life. No one judges the female sailors any different from the males. We are all the same, doing the same job. We have respect for each other and nothing can penetrate that respect. This is something you don't find in the civilian world. it doesn't matter what your gender, race, creed, or religion is, you are part of the team, and nothing transgresses that idea. So the system is inherently equal. Some individuals may not adhere to that, but they are wrong and get punished when caught, severly.

In conclusion, you guys really can't express an opinion on a matter which you know nothing about. You cannot express an opinion on the inner workings of the military, you've never experienced it. You also cannot have an opinion on how your protesting makes us feel. You aren't one of us, you don't know. And when we say it makes us feel like crap, you better believe it. We aren't lying to you. It really does demoralize us. So if you are going to protest, don't say you support the troops, because you don't. If you did, you wouldn't be working so hard to make us feel like we aren't appreciated. You can say you appreciate us all you want, but when you say that you think the job we are doing is bull****... well you don't appreciate it. Don't even try to justify it either. We are telling you the effects of your behavior, make a decision. Either protest us, or support us. There is no gray area in between. You'd like ti to be that simple, but it isn't. That's rather easy and if you want to be lazy, well I'd rather you just go on the side opposing us.

[Albinonewt]

Kinda hard to lie about what you said when I quoted exactly what you wrote.

But somehow you managed to do it, good for you.


Either way, youre wrong about what you think. When the mission is an extremely flawed politically and financially motivated crap-fest

Financially motivated? I thought that by now with the hundreds of billions of dollars that had been spent that even the craziest people had abandoned that mantra. No, the war is not, and was never, motivated by money. It has always been motivated by security considerations (correctly or incorrectly) and ideology (that democracy stops terrorism, also correctly or incorrectly).

that is detrimental to the lives and safety of the soldiers,
Well duh. Yes Kosmo, this may be a shock for you but war is detrimental to the safety of the people fighting it. That’s pretty universal and has been true since the dawn of man. Thanks for figuring it out.

its quite impossible to be both for the soldier and for the mission. Unless youre for the extremely vague "war on terrorism" that had nothing to do with Iraq.
Why is that? Because soldiers get killed? Then what you’re saying is that it was impossible to be for victory in any war and also support the soldiers, and that’s just preposterous. And yes, Iraq is the center of the war on terror. Whether it was on the onset or not is for some reason still debated, but only lunatics can look at who we’re fighting in Iraq and say that it isn’t a part of the war on terror.

All for a piss poor reason. It wouldve been a little easier to swallow if I were doing something valuable. Oh yeah, Im medically non-deployable, too. So is my brother who is in Baghdad. Funny how that works.
Fine, you’re entitled to your attitude and hatred, but you keep pretending it’s something else, and that’s a lie.

[SCpoloRicker]

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/8996/glassparkinglotjb1.jpg

It's the only way to be sure.

/hi newt. you've been touchy lately. :(

[Steelrat]

The most entertaining part of this is that an anti-war "supporter" is trying to convince actual veterans that they should feel "supported" by her actions.

They don't. They have said so clearly. That should say something.

[Steelrat]

That worked well in Vietnam and Cambodia.


You should go and re-read your history. It WAS working in Vietnam. Militarily, we were winning the war. The Viet Cong was pretty much done after the Tet Offensive, and we were whipping the North's regulars in every major battle. Hell, the Linebacker offensives drove the North right to the negotiating table. What cost us the conflict was the erosion of support in the United States.

[SCpoloRicker]

What cost us the conflict was the erosion of support in the United States.

Wait, I thought it was Jane Fonda and John Kerry? :confused:

/by the by, seems to be a bit of "erosion of support" currently
//yes, I understand why we went to Vietnam

[kosmo]

Financially motivated? I thought that by now with the hundreds of billions of dollars that had been spent that even the craziest people had abandoned that mantra. No, the war is not, and was never, motivated by money. It has always been motivated by security considerations (correctly or incorrectly) and ideology (that democracy stops terrorism, also correctly or incorrectly).
You must be right, because there were so many of Bin Ladens cohorts hiding in those oil fields, and Halliburton isnt friends with Tricky Dick Jr., nor do they have a single lobbyist on their pay roll.


Well duh. Yes Kosmo, this may be a shock for you but war is detrimental to the safety of the people fighting it. That’s pretty universal and has been true since the dawn of man. Thanks for figuring it out.
Soldiers died in WW2 to basically stop Japan and Germany from taking over the world. That was worth it. Soldiers getting killed by the thousands to install corrupt Islamic governments in Iraq and Afghanistan is not worth it.


And yes, Iraq is the center of the war on terror.
Thats the biggest load of bile Ive ever heard.



Fine, you’re entitled to your attitude and hatred, but you keep pretending it’s something else, and that’s a lie.
No, youre lying. Stop lying, you lying liar.

[Altimas]

Man I looked everywhere for that Picture on Arguing on the Internet....


Oh well... :tard:

[warbeak2099]

Soldiers died in WW2 to basically stop Japan and Germany from taking over the world. That was worth it. Soldiers getting killed by the thousands to install corrupt Islamic governments in Iraq and Afghanistan is not worth it.


Um we're actually trying to prevent Islamic governments from getting power. We're trying to steer the people away from a corrupt theocracy.

Also, Iraq has become a pretty huge hub of terror. Lebanon and several African states are also parts of the problem. What terrorism sprouts from is basically poor economic situations. When you have a tyrannical dictator oppressing his people to the point that they can't provide for themselves, you get desperation. They also need to find a scapegoat on which to take out this desperation. Since defying the government in this type of situation is futile and impractical, terrorist factions direct the hatred to a much easier target, America. America is prosperous, powerful, etc. Perfect target. It's pretty easy to brainwash people into thinking that by killing Americans their problems will be neutralized, since the people they are recruiting are incredibly impoverished and have no where else to turn. Think about what a poor, dejected person would say to someone who promises eternity in paradise.

They of course forget true Islamic doctrine that forbids a holy war against civilians and civilian property. They forget that a Jihad does not mean holy war, it means struggle and is supposed to be used to describe a personal struggle with your family/friend or with your faith. They forget reality basically. As do brainwashed liberals who follow these capricious ideas of a corrupt American government going around stealing people's oil and the like. Perhaps there is some evidence to that point, but they fail to look at the other side of the coin. The fact that we have made great strides toward democracy and political autonomy in Iraq. But I guess all the evidence supporting that fact is just conveniently erroneous.

[Albinonewt]

You must be right, because there were so many of Bin Ladens cohorts hiding in those oil fields, and Halliburton isnt friends with Tricky Dick Jr., nor do they have a single lobbyist on their pay roll.
Point in fact; there have been numerous acts of terrorism against the oil field, which are the life blood of Iraq and necessary for the countries survival. And the contracts that initially got Halliburton into Iraq were awarded in the Clinton years.

Soldiers died in WW2 to basically stop Japan and Germany from taking over the world. That was worth it. Soldiers getting killed by the thousands to install corrupt Islamic governments in Iraq and Afghanistan is not worth it.
Lucky for them then that “Operation install corruption” has never been called into action. The goals in Iraq were (and are) simple, remove Saddam Hussain (accomplished), disarm and secure his weapons of mass destruction (failed, assuming he had them which is no longer the conventional wisdom), and leave a Democratic and Free Iraq in it’s place (in progress, currently failing). Nation building has always been a spotty proposition, and generally speaking I’ve been against nation building exercises, as I’ve never considered them worth American lives. However, in light of Somalia becoming a haven for Al Queda after our failure there I no longer assume that nation building isn’t worth the burden. The welfare of the nation depends on the defeat of our enemies and in this asymmetrical battle the only way (so far) that we know to deny our enemies safe harbor is nation building.


Thats the biggest load of bile Ive ever heard.
It happens to be true. Three years after the invasion of Iraq it has become the center of the war on terror. We do battle daily with terrorists and their terror masters, Iran and Syria, are conveniently located on the border supplying their cohorts. Yes, Iraq is currently the center of the war on terror.


No, youre lying. Stop lying, you lying liar.

About what? That you complain about how much you hate the military, your commander in chief, the mission, and having to serve? That’s all true. That you blame the military (justifiably so) for much of the problems in your life? That’s true, I’ve seen your posts to that affect. That you’re no pretending your complaints are with the effectiveness of the war and not the preceding subjects? Well, re-read your posts yourself, because that’s your newest trick.

[SCpoloRicker]

I'm sorry, but the argument "If you don't support what we're doing in Iraq, you don't support the troops." really aggravates me. It strikes me as more of the same "you're with us, or you're with the terrorists" baloney.

Speaking of nation building: how are our efforts in South America in the 80s working out for us? Lots of pro-American sentiment there, right? Guys?

[Albinonewt]

I'm sorry, but the argument "If you don't support what we're doing in Iraq, you don't support the troops." really aggravates me. It strikes me as more of the same "you're with us, or you're with the terrorists" baloney.

No, it isn’t the same at all. The difference being, as has been put now by a number of people, how can you claim to support people that are engaged in a mission you don’t care if succeeds or not? I think you’re falling into the same trap as Kosmo and Tropical Fishy (not a good place to be). Concern for the well being of our soldiers is not the same as support. There are a great number of people who are against the mission in Iraq (and therefore not supportive of the soldiers) AND legitimately concerned with the well being of the troops. Support isn’t the same as hoping everything goes ok. For instance, I hope that Africa stops being ravaged by Aids, starvation, corruption, poverty, and disease. On the other hand I can’t say I’m really supportive of those efforts, as I can’t remember ever doing a single thing to help any of those causes.


Speaking of nation building: how are our efforts in South America in the 80s working out for us? Lots of pro-American sentiment there, right? Guys?

We’ve talked about this before. Reagan’s efforts in South America were successful, and would have paid off in the long run had President Bush 41, the President Clinton, and then President Bush 43 not completely abandoned the progress made there. The bulk of the blame lands on Bush 41, followed by Clinton, followed by Bush 43. After 12 years of neglect there wasn’t much to be done.

South America is a perfect example of what happens when you kick off nation building and then prematurely stop.

[warbeak2099]

I'm sorry, but the argument "If you don't support what we're doing in Iraq, you don't support the troops." really aggravates me. It strikes me as more of the same "you're with us, or you're with the terrorists" baloney.

Speaking of nation building: how are our efforts in South America in the 80s working out for us? Lots of pro-American sentiment there, right? Guys?

We're just telling you how it feels when you slam what we're doing. It doesn't exactly give us the idea of you supporting us. And the idea that you can do both is a lazy cop-out. I'd respect someone more who sticks to their guns and doesn't pretend to support me but not the job I'm training to do.

Actually we have established some succesful relationships with South American countries. Just because Chavez is a raving a-hole doesn't mean other S. American countries aren't working with us. Navy-wise, we have an alliance that puts the U.S., Panamanian, Argentinian, and other Latin navies together into a force dedicated to patroling the Atlantic and protecting each others' interests. I'd say that's not bad.

[Steelrat]

I'm sorry, but the argument "If you don't support what we're doing in Iraq, you don't support the troops." really aggravates me. It strikes me as more of the same "you're with us, or you're with the terrorists" baloney.



Seems to me that it's up to the troops to decide the validity of the that. From the opinions I have seen here (Kosmo excluded) it appears they feel exactly that way.

[Steelrat]

Speaking of nation building: how are our efforts in South America in the 80s working out for us? Lots of pro-American sentiment there, right? Guys?

Germany and Japan seem to have turned out pretty well. Not every process is 100%. Plus, like 'Newt mentioned (and it pains me to agree with him) having an administration change every 4-8 years doesn't help when it comes to long-term projects.

[kosmo]

Um we're actually trying to prevent Islamic governments from getting power. We're trying to steer the people away from a corrupt theocracy.
Oh, really? I didnt know that. See, Im currently living in Afghanistan as a military advisor to a bunch of corrupt politicians working in a corrupt Islamic government, which by the way recently tried to have someone executed for converting to Christianity. Ive been too busy to realize that the government Im working with is corrupt.


Also, Iraq has become a pretty huge hub of terror. Lebanon and several African states are also parts of the problem. What terrorism sprouts from is basically poor economic situations. When you have a tyrannical dictator oppressing his people to the point that they can't provide for themselves, you get desperation. They also need to find a scapegoat on which to take out this desperation. Since defying the government in this type of situation is futile and impractical, terrorist factions direct the hatred to a much easier target, America. America is prosperous, powerful, etc. Perfect target. It's pretty easy to brainwash people into thinking that by killing Americans their problems will be neutralized, since the people they are recruiting are incredibly impoverished and have no where else to turn. Think about what a poor, dejected person would say to someone who promises eternity in paradise.
Thanks for that lesson, I didnt know any of that. Im too busy "fighting the war on terror" to have been educated on what causes terrorism. See, here I thought Israel was the center of the whole Islamofacist war thingie. Thats why theyve been fighting these kinds of terrorists for decades longer than we have (and have made no progress, with the much less constrictive ROE that some people are calling for,) theyre the targets of the WMDs that countries like Iran and Syria have, and theyre the reason that countries like Iran and Syria dont like us. Which is what causes them to mess with us in Iraq (that and having a president who invades other countries with no real justification, despite the rest of the world telling us not to). As if that werent enough, the vast majority of violence in Iraq isnt targeting Americans, but is a centuries old sectarian clash that pales in comparison to the slaughter in Darfur, somewhere nobody in our government gives a crap about helping (maybe they should find some oil there, or launch an easily foiled and obvious assassination attempt on G-Dubs dad).



They of course forget true Islamic doctrine that forbids a holy war against civilians and civilian property. They forget that a Jihad does not mean holy war, it means struggle and is supposed to be used to describe a personal struggle with your family/friend or with your faith. They forget reality basically. As do brainwashed liberals who follow these capricious ideas of a corrupt American government going around stealing people's oil and the like. Perhaps there is some evidence to that point, but they fail to look at the other side of the coin. The fact that we have made great strides toward democracy and political autonomy in Iraq. But I guess all the evidence supporting that fact is just conveniently erroneous.

Oh, weve made great progress, have we? The Iraq panel results released today seem to think otherwise. As did Rumsfelds letter right before he was canned admitting that the president over there is a useless hack. We toppled a dictator and destroyed the countries infrastructure. Since that point, we have done little to rebuild it, and anyone educated and valuable to the future of the country has fled. Meanwhile, nearly 3000 American soldiers have died, and approximately 20 times that number of civilians has died. Sounds like progress to me.

[Albinonewt]

Oh, really? I didnt know that. See, Im currently living in Afghanistan as a military advisor to a bunch of corrupt politicians working in a corrupt Islamic government, which by the way recently tried to have someone executed for converting to Christianity. Ive been too busy to realize that the government Im working with is corrupt.
But it’s a freely elected Constitutional Democratic government, or at least the early underpinnings of one. It takes time to get it right, but the Afghani government is a far cry from the rule of the Iranian Mullahs.

Thanks for that lesson, I didnt know any of that. Im too busy "fighting the war on terror" to have been educated on what causes terrorism. See, here I thought Israel was the center of the whole Islamofacist war thingie.
Should there be a smiley face there? You’re not being serious are you?

Thats why theyve been fighting these kinds of terrorists for decades longer than we have (and have made no progress, with the much less constrictive ROE that some people are calling for,)
They make progress. The problem is that every inch they win the International community and their puppets at the UN pressure Israel to stop defending itself. They also foils dozens of a attacks a week and have killed numerous terrorist leaders.

theyre the targets of the WMDs that countries like Iran and Syria have, and theyre the reason that countries like Iran and Syria dont like us.
If we bombed Israel into the stone age today they would still hate us tomorrow.

Which is what causes them to mess with us in Iraq (that and having a president who invades other countries with no real justification, despite the rest of the world telling us not to).
And they “mess’ with us in Iraq because they don’t want an Arab Democracy next door, not because of Israel. The last thing the dictatorships in the Middle East want is a stable democratic Arab neighbor.
Not counting Great Britain, Poland, Spain, Australia, and so on and so forth.

As if that werent enough, the vast majority of violence in Iraq isnt targeting Americans, but is a centuries old sectarian clash
Um, Kosmo said something that’s correct. Can that even happen?

that pales in comparison to the slaughter in Darfur, somewhere nobody in our government gives a crap about helping (maybe they should find some oil there, or launch an easily foiled and obvious assassination attempt on G-Dubs dad).
I don’t know if it’s fair to say it pales to Darfur. Darfur is far more one sided, and doesn’t have the benefit of 150,000 American soldiers endeavoring to keep the peace. Having said that, Darfur is a disaster, and should be fixed.


Oh, weve made great progress, have we? The Iraq panel results released today seem to think otherwise.

Have you read the report? It’s laughable and given to such flights of fancy previously reserved for the movies. I plan on making a thread about it in E&D, but I’ve still got some pages left to go.


and As did Rumsfelds letter right before he was canned admitting that the president over there is a useless hack.

Al Maliki is in some ways as much of a problem as he is an asset. However, he is the democratically elected leader and that’s who we deal with.


We toppled a dictator and destroyed the countries infrastructure.

Iraq had no infrastructure. It was a shell of a country barely capable of sustaining itself in any meaningful way. One of the biggest failures of the pre-war planning was overestimating the degree of infrastructure in Iraq to begin with.


Since that point, we have done little to rebuild it,

Um, you’re about as wrong as you can be. A lot of progress has been made and lot of infrastructure has been built. But, there is still nearly limitless work to be done.


and anyone educated and valuable to the future of the country has fled.

That is not entirely true, but a large number of Iraqis have left their country rather then participating in the reconstruction.


Meanwhile, nearly 3000 American soldiers have died, and approximately 20 times that number of civilians has died. Sounds like progress to me.

Body counts, as tragic as they are, do not define success and failure.

[kosmo]

But it’s a freely elected Constitutional Democratic government, or at least the early underpinnings of one. It takes time to get it right, but the Afghani government is a far cry from the rule of the Iranian Mullahs.
I agree with that, and I think Afghanistan has a fair amount of hope. But it would take a lot less time if the US would quit pussyfooting around with Karzai. We need to tell him if he doesnt get rid of the corrupt officials and stop appointing more corrupt officials, then we will stop giving him money. Its absolutely ridiculous what we let them get away with.



They make progress. The problem is that every inch they win the International community and their puppets at the UN pressure Israel to stop defending itself. They also foils dozens of a attacks a week and have killed numerous terrorist leaders.
Progress is a relative term. Are they any safer today than they were 30 years ago? Not really. Have they made progress in learning how to protect themselves from these threats? Yes. Can America learn from them successfully without having to send soldiers to Iraq as a decoy to keep the terrorists from focusing on American soil? Absolutely.


If we bombed Israel into the stone age today they would still hate us tomorrow.
I never said they wouldnt. And I didnt really mean to allude that Israel was the "center" of the war on terror, because there isnt one. Thats the very essence of asymmetrical warfare, which is what this is, on a global level. Israel is just the biggest common motivating factor for most of these guys. From my point of view, it is stupid to call Iraq the center of the war. Just like Israel cant be safe from their enemies by putting a wall around Palestine and their border with Lebanon, we cant win the war on terror by converting Iraq to democracy. If we want to win the war on middle eastern terror, at the very least we have to destroy and rebuild Iraq, Iran, Syria, and Pakistan. Considering how much trouble we are having now, it doesnt look like that plan is too feasible. After those, wed still have to clean up Chechnya, Indonesia, and Michigan if we really wanted to see this thing through. Considering that, the far more effective option is to take the billions upon billions of dollars we are wasting abroad and put it into homeland defense.


And they “mess’ with us in Iraq because they don’t want an Arab Democracy next door, not because of Israel. The last thing the dictatorships in the Middle East want is a stable democratic Arab neighbor.
Not counting Great Britain, Poland, Spain, Australia, and so on and so forth.
Well I dont know too much about the Syrian government, but the Iranians are quite confident that they can keep control of their own country from interior destabilization. The reason Iran is messing with us is because weve invaded both their neighbors and are setting our sights on them. The longer they can keep us in Iraq, the longer we are too busy to screw with them.



Have you read the report? It’s laughable and given to such flights of fancy previously reserved for the movies. I plan on making a thread about it in E&D, but I’ve still got some pages left to go.
Ive read parts, and hell mustve frozen over because I agree with you twice in one post. McCain is right when he says that the plan they have is a plan for failure. Why the heck would they say crap like to see if Iran wants to help, even though they talked to them already and Iran said piss off, and our solution to them saying no is to call them a bunch of "rejectionists"? Thats pretty freakin pathetic. I think Bush is going to go with this plan just so when it fails, the republicans can point out how bad the democratically backed plan was.



Iraq had no infrastructure. It was a shell of a country barely capable of sustaining itself in any meaningful way. One of the biggest failures of the pre-war planning was overestimating the degree of infrastructure in Iraq to begin with.
There was infrastructure there, just not exactly how we were expecting it. They still had probably the best schools in the middle east, comparatively advanced medical care for the region (albeit trade embargos had destroyed their ability to get significant quantities of medicines), and relative security. Problem is that it was all held together by strict government rule, and thats not what we went in there to do.




Um, you’re about as wrong as you can be. A lot of progress has been made and lot of infrastructure has been built. But, there is still nearly limitless work to be done.
Again, progress is relative. Weve had elections, weve built schools, weve dug wells, weve built hospitals. Did the elections result in anything resembling an effective government? No. Are there anywhere near enough teachers in the schools? No, many of them left, and many of those who stayed have been executed. Did the wells provide villages with water? Yes, so they can be less thirsty as theyre detonating roadside bombs on us. What about the hospitals? Same thing as the teachers, many doctors are gone or dead, now theyve got a lot of people who can plug holes and pray.






Body counts, as tragic as they are, do not define success and failure.
No, but they can be used to gauge progress. We are definitely moving backwards if our intent was to provide a safe, happy place for different sects to peacefully coexist.

[beam]

Oh, really? I didnt know that. See, Im currently living in Afghanistan as a military advisor to a bunch of corrupt politicians working in a corrupt Islamic government, which by the way recently tried to have someone executed for converting to Christianity. Ive been too busy to realize that the government Im working with is corrupt.

So how did you advise them in this situation?

Oh and Kosmo, since you're in Afghanistan, here's a blog you'll probably like to read:

Michael Yon (http://www.michaelyon-online.com)

There's a lot of reading if you go back because he was first in Iraq with the Deuce Four. Went to Afghanistan most recently, and may still be there. Let me know if what he says about Afghanistan is crap or pretty accurate.

[Albinonewt]

I agree with that, and I think Afghanistan has a fair amount of hope. But it would take a lot less time if the US would quit pussyfooting around with Karzai. We need to tell him if he doesnt get rid of the corrupt officials and stop appointing more corrupt officials, then we will stop giving him money. Its absolutely ridiculous what we let them get away with.

The corruption is frustrating, but it’s probably best to leave it alone and let the internal structure work itself out. As long as the elected officials are accountable through the Democratic process the corruption should be manageable. In the short run though it will take some time.


Progress is a relative term. Are they any safer today than they were 30 years ago? Not really. Have they made progress in learning how to protect themselves from these threats? Yes. Can America learn from them successfully without having to send soldiers to Iraq as a decoy to keep the terrorists from focusing on American soil? Absolutely.
Are the safer now then when they were in a shooting war for their survival (that was 40 years ago though)? Yes. Israel is very good at preventing attacks and considering the level of opposition they face Israel is relatively safe. The ration of prevented attacks to successful attacks is pretty high. Where Israel should be a lesson to Americans is that Israel never “drains the swamp” so to speak in regards to where it’s enemies come from and as such they live under constant threat of attack.

I never said they wouldnt. And I didnt really mean to allude that Israel was the "center" of the war on terror, because there isnt one.
You didn’t allude, you flat out stated that Israel was the center of the problem and why Syria and Iran hate us, and that is flatly false.
Your exact words were:

See, here I thought Israel was the center of the whole Islamofacist war thingie. Thats why theyve been fighting these kinds of terrorists for decades longer than we have (and have made no progress, with the much less constrictive ROE that some people are calling for,) theyre the targets of the WMDs that countries like Iran and Syria have, and theyre the reason that countries like Iran and Syria dont like us

Thats the very essence of asymmetrical warfare, which is what this is, on a global level. Israel is just the biggest common motivating factor for most of these guys.
That’s also untrue. Israel is a common theme in much of the rhetoric, but the struggle, as they see it, is believers against non-believers. If Israel were to disappear tomorrow their fight against the west wouldn’t pause for a second.

From my point of view, it is stupid to call Iraq the center of the war.
It is the central front on the war on terror. Iraq is where our enemies have dedicated much of their resources, including Al Queda, Iran, and Syria. Iraq is where we are engaging, every day, the forces of our enemies. Our enemies also realize that victory or defeat in Iraq is of the utmost importance in determining the final outcome in the ultimate conflict. So yes, Iraq is currently the center of the war on terror. It won’t be forever, as either it will be resolved (win or lose) or another conflict will replace it in importance. But for the time being it is the central front in the war on terror.

Just like Israel cant be safe from their enemies by putting a wall around Palestine and their border with Lebanon, we cant win the war on terror by converting Iraq to democracy.

First, Israel’s wall has made Israel far safer and is a huge asset for preventing attacks. Second, nobody ever said that once Iraq is a Democracy then the war on terror is won. Iraq becoming a democracy will be a huge victory in the war on terror, but it isn’t the end game.

If we want to win the war on middle eastern terror, at the very least we have to destroy and rebuild Iraq, Iran, Syria, and Pakistan.
No, we need to defeat Iran and Syria, and probably not Pakistan (although maybe). This doesn’t necessarily need to be done militarily, but probably. And it may have been easier to rebuild Iraq had we taken out Iran and Syria in the beginning because then there wouldn’t have been functioning state sponsors. I don’t know that for certain, but it seems reasonable.

Considering how much trouble we are having now, it doesnt look like that plan is too feasible. After those, wed still have to clean up Chechnya, Indonesia, and Michigan if we really wanted to see this thing through. Considering that, the far more effective option is to take the billions upon billions of dollars we are wasting abroad and put it into homeland defense.
You just said that Israel’s strategy, which is essentially the hole up and wait Homeland security strategy doesn’t work, so why do you think it would here? No, President Bush is right to take the fight to our enemies. He’s just not great at it.


Well I dont know too much about the Syrian government, but the Iranians are quite confident that they can keep control of their own country from interior destabilization. The reason Iran is messing with us is because weve invaded both their neighbors and are setting our sights on them. The longer they can keep us in Iraq, the longer we are too busy to screw with them.
That’s pretty close to the truth, and a far cry from your earlier comments blaming Israel.


Ive read parts, and hell mustve frozen over because I agree with you twice in one post. McCain is right when he says that the plan they have is a plan for failure. Why the heck would they say crap like to see if Iran wants to help, even though they talked to them already and Iran said piss off, and our solution to them saying no is to call them a bunch of "rejectionists"? Thats pretty freakin pathetic. I think Bush is going to go with this plan just so when it fails, the republicans can point out how bad the democratically backed plan was.

We’ll see what he does, but since you admit that the report is a bunch of nonsense I wonder why you cited it as an authority yesterday…


There was infrastructure there, just not exactly how we were expecting it. They still had probably the best schools in the middle east, comparatively advanced medical care for the region (albeit trade embargos had destroyed their ability to get significant quantities of medicines), and relative security. Problem is that it was all held together by strict government rule, and thats not what we went in there to do.
That’s basically what I said, except for the security piece. I suppose there was security if you define security as hiding in your house hoping the execution squads aren’t out tonight.


Again, progress is relative. Weve had elections, weve built schools, weve dug wells, weve built hospitals. Did the elections result in anything resembling an effective government? No. Are there anywhere near enough teachers in the schools? No, many of them left, and many of those who stayed have been executed. Did the wells provide villages with water? Yes, so they can be less thirsty as theyre detonating roadside bombs on us. What about the hospitals? Same thing as the teachers, many doctors are gone or dead, now theyve got a lot of people who can plug holes and pray.

You just described progress and obstacles. Yes, there are obstacles to be overcome, but that doesn’t mean that there hasn’t been progress.




No, but they can be used to gauge progress. We are definitely moving backwards if our intent was to provide a safe, happy place for different sects to peacefully coexist.

No, they really can’t be. There were nearly 40,000 allied soldiers killed in the battle of Normandy, yet that was a enormous success. Nearly 60,000 Americans were killed in Vietnam and that war was not a success. No American soldiers lost their lives in the air campaign in the Balkans and that was a success. Almost 3,000 soldiers have been killed in Iraq and that war remains in progress.

The only thing that body counts really tell us is the intensity of the conflict.