Can paintball be saved ?

[punkncat]

I find myself sitting here in a serious paintball funk.

Almost all of the old school paintball companies/personalities are out of buisiness or have left. Support for any product older than about a year or two is completly gone, even from (most) manufacturer websites. New markers are being made with serious quality issues, even high end.....Angel, Dye... The resale of markers is to the point that buying new is a completly stupid thing to do, especially when you consider that no true innovation has happened in years. Any good marker a few years old can't be given away.I won't even get into the hype surrounding new releases.

With the constant corporate merging and dealing being done innovation is a thing of the past. The legal landscape prevents the grassroots development that made the sport what it is. The whole thing is slowly moving towards being one large umbrella covered by one management company. We will all be shooting the same marker...an "Ion"...

The world of rec play has degraded to the point that trying to get a friendly honest game on is unheard of. This behaviour has dribbled into the world of woodsball as well. Cheating is rampant. Many owners/promoters have resigned themselves to a shoulder shrug of "thats the way it is" rather than actively trying to do something about it. Most players have as well.

Referees have become a complete laughing stock and complete embarrasment in almost every venue across the board. There is no integrity, no consistancy, complete lack of reason to respect the authority they are supposed to represent. Demonstrated by players at any venue, anywhere.

The whole game is stenching of "squeeze it for all its worth" and get out. Disposable markers made for a short term player. A bunch of new players introduced to a world of "slotmachine" games where your only limitation is how much money you can afford to spend in paint. Cause we all know you are only as good as the amount of paint you can waste, and how fast.



The only good game that is to be found is for those of us still lucky enough to have a good group of friends to play some renegade ball in a back yard. Following the code of honor that all should play with......

[RogueFactor]

I find myself sitting here in a serious paintball funk.

Almost all of the old school paintball companies/personalities are out of buisiness or have left. Support for any product older than about a year or two is completly gone, even from (most) manufacturer websites. New markers are being made with serious quality issues, even high end.....Angel, Dye... The resale of markers is to the point that buying new is a completly stupid thing to do, especially when you consider that no true innovation has happened in years. Any good marker a few years old can't be given away.I won't even get into the hype surrounding new releases.

With the constant corporate merging and dealing being done innovation is a thing of the past. The legal landscape prevents the grassroots development that made the sport what it is. The whole thing is slowly moving towards being one large umbrella covered by one management company. We will all be shooting the same marker...an "Ion"...

The world of rec play has degraded to the point that trying to get a friendly honest game on is unheard of. This behaviour has dribbled into the world of woodsball as well. Cheating is rampant. Many owners/promoters have resigned themselves to a shoulder shrug of "thats the way it is" rather than actively trying to do something about it. Most players have as well.

Referees have become a complete laughing stock and complete embarrasment in almost every venue across the board. There is no integrity, no consistancy, complete lack of reason to respect the authority they are supposed to represent. Demonstrated by players at any venue, anywhere.

The whole game is stenching of "squeeze it for all its worth" and get out. Disposable markers made for a short term player. A bunch of new players introduced to a world of "slotmachine" games where your only limitation is how much money you can afford to spend in paint. Cause we all know you are only as good as the amount of paint you can waste, and how fast.



The only good game that is to be found is for those of us still lucky enough to have a good group of friends to play some renegade ball in a back yard. Following the code of honor that all should play with......


Great post.

[punkncat]

Great post.


Thanks.... :cry:

Its very sad....and true.

[SpecialBlend2786]

I find myself sitting here in a serious paintball funk.

Almost all of the old school paintball companies/personalities are out of buisiness or have left. Support for any product older than about a year or two is completly gone, even from (most) manufacturer websites. New markers are being made with serious quality issues, even high end.....Angel, Dye... The resale of markers is to the point that buying new is a completly stupid thing to do, especially when you consider that no true innovation has happened in years. Any good marker a few years old can't be given away.I won't even get into the hype surrounding new releases.

Just a quick note on this: Unlike every other Angel ever made, the new Angel A1 is made in China.

I kid you not, from the mouth of Ken Crane himself.

[RogueFactor]

Just a quick note on this: Unlike every other Angel ever made, the new Angel A1 is made in China.

I kid you not, from the mouth of Ken Crane himself.

Dont be surprised when you find out other "high-end" markers are being made in China too.

Everyone wants cheap. Going to China is the only way to give the customers what they want.

[spike_ball999]

Definitly a good post.

It seems every sport I get into, or in paintball's case, back into, gets to it's pinicle, then falls right as I put my foot in the door. Skateboarding was sort of the same way. (I just can't get extremely hurt like that anymore. That's why I don't really do it.)

I guess the only thing to do at this moment is to in a sense, wait out the storm. In a best case scenario, all these new people rushing in would get sick of it real quick; their markers breaking and nobody to talk to in customer service because the company either doesn't care anymore, or they're far too busy because other people are having the exact same problem. From there I'd guess that it would progress to the true players staying put and the public accepting it, but it's not 'the craze' anymore. It would flatten out to a level but of course everything would be stable and inovations would be few and far between. They've already been done.

I'm basing that off of what I've seen happen with skateboarding over the past 6 years or so. Just look at it. People will come and go, but it's not like everyone wants in at once.

The question is, what is next?

[CKY_Alliance]

I find myself sitting here in a serious paintball funk.

Almost all of the old school paintball companies/personalities are out of buisiness or have left. Support for any product older than about a year or two is completly gone, even from (most) manufacturer websites. New markers are being made with serious quality issues, even high end.....Angel, Dye... The resale of markers is to the point that buying new is a completly stupid thing to do, especially when you consider that no true innovation has happened in years. Any good marker a few years old can't be given away.I won't even get into the hype surrounding new releases.

With the constant corporate merging and dealing being done innovation is a thing of the past. The legal landscape prevents the grassroots development that made the sport what it is. The whole thing is slowly moving towards being one large umbrella covered by one management company. We will all be shooting the same marker...an "Ion"...

The world of rec play has degraded to the point that trying to get a friendly honest game on is unheard of. This behaviour has dribbled into the world of woodsball as well. Cheating is rampant. Many owners/promoters have resigned themselves to a shoulder shrug of "thats the way it is" rather than actively trying to do something about it. Most players have as well.

Referees have become a complete laughing stock and complete embarrasment in almost every venue across the board. There is no integrity, no consistancy, complete lack of reason to respect the authority they are supposed to represent. Demonstrated by players at any venue, anywhere.

The whole game is stenching of "squeeze it for all its worth" and get out. Disposable markers made for a short term player. A bunch of new players introduced to a world of "slotmachine" games where your only limitation is how much money you can afford to spend in paint. Cause we all know you are only as good as the amount of paint you can waste, and how fast.



The only good game that is to be found is for those of us still lucky enough to have a good group of friends to play some renegade ball in a back yard. Following the code of honor that all should play with......


I dont know where you play..but it takes alot more then just shooting a bunch of paint to win around here. If you dont like it then do something about it or quit..paintball is progressing and we will never ALL shoot the same marker..nor will there be ONE company producing gear...not as long as there is capitalsim... I dont see much wrong with the game..then again i dont sit there and Disect every aspect of it..i just play it and have fun...you should give it a try. (oh and i mean that in a nice way.)

Oh and PLEASE give examples of these serious quality issues...ye when you are producing as much as these companies are, you are bound to have a few bad ones ,but those that are messed up are generally replaced by one in perfect working order.

[cynikal]

this is why i am pulling out - going old school back to my roots of outlaw games and CO2 and may some HPA. i read an article a while back in APG about Limited Tech Tournaments in the woods - like the old days. i hate the soap operas and whinning and all the argues about which gun is better cause i paid x amount. cynikal is what i have become and i am happy now. what drives me crazy is these kids - self proclaimed "gun whores" that trade off guns every other month then can't understand why they are not consistant winners a the tournaments. i tried to tell them of teh good old days when the All-Americans made teh switch to teh old shoebox shockers the first few tournaments they suck it up. everyone blammed it on the gun switch even members of the team mentioned it. look at all these other teams - you rarely see anyone sticking with a gun or barrel system for the whole season. the teams jump from sponsor, players think they a owed something, and the kids on pbnation are idiots. our sport has gone from what works to what looks good and is more expensive.

for example i helped a buddy start up a company called Spudnuk'l Paintball i designed the bolt and he milled and sold them i gave the designs to him for free. he went through a messy split with his wife , moved to texas, and i heard nothing from him since. well he lost it and made alot of people mad is to process, but before all that we started selling the bolts at the $15 range sales were for teh first few months ok as an expiriment we changed nothing but the name and upped the price to $25 the next month sales took off. people swore the $25 bolt was better that the $15 bolt. in an old ecomonics class we talked about the "market of stupidity" or something to that effect - too many years have past. i believe that is where 70-80% of the players are at.

i refuse to where any paintball uniform of any kind, i where an old navy flag shirt and some cut off black bdu shorts. i loathe the "hey i have the new '07 line of XXXXX uniforms - so i am better" attitude, but hats off the the paintball marketing groups they kicked these kids ***es and continue to do so!

[sixtoes1313]

yea. Very true and sad forum. Even the kids in my woodsball game cheat somtimes. Im like WTF guy. It doesnt count for anything.

[REDRT]

The rest of the paintball world can go to hell, but as long as there is people out there whom I call friends then it isn't a total loss.

[punkncat]

I dont know where you play..but it takes alot more then just shooting a bunch of paint to win around here. If you dont like it then do something about it or quit..paintball is progressing and we will never ALL shoot the same marker..nor will there be ONE company producing gear...not as long as there is capitalsim... I dont see much wrong with the game..then again i dont sit there and Disect every aspect of it..i just play it and have fun...you should give it a try. (oh and i mean that in a nice way.)

Oh and PLEASE give examples of these serious quality issues...ye when you are producing as much as these companies are, you are bound to have a few bad ones ,but those that are messed up are generally replaced by one in perfect working order.

I would really love to know what magical land you live in that NONE of the issues that are common throughout paintball are drifting in to affect your game. I am not trying to be a smartass, but either you are ignoring the problems, you are part of the problem, or you are only playing with groups of good friends as I mentioned before.

Every day that I play I try to uphold honor and honesty with my game. I try to point out to other players to do the same. Followed by that "who are you" look and proceed to watch them do the same things over and over. There is no reasoning with these type of people. It is going to take more than an effort by one or two players. The solution lies with players, fields, AND the creation of a REAL set of rules (with teeth) to govern the game. The problem can't be fixed when the people driving paintball and running the fields don't care, or even have a standard by which to measure against.

If you pay attention you will notice that most markers already are the same. Look at the new Shocker...see anything slightly Dye looking about it? Have you looked at SP's grips lately? Look a lot like stickies eh?
Have you noticed the scramble of EVERY manufacturer to attempt to put something out that competes with the Ion?
Have you payed attention to the fact that EVERY paintball manufacturer out with little exception is either owned by or paying royalties to another manufacturer or management group?
The ones that aren't are slowly dwindling away living off the residual market left from their heyday...AGD? AKA?
Ever notice that over time everything made by the same manufaturer are very similar? So when all these companies are eventually owned by K2, National, and SP where is different going to come from?
And even the "differences" are only skin deep. How many designs of marker are mainstream right now?
Aside from various blowbacks/forwards that are and have been the same, you have the Spool valve and the Poppet valve. There are only a few different things you can do with either of those designs, and none are so far from the other within manufacturers to truly say there is any innovation or advantage.
Truly what is so different between a freestyle and a shocker? A vike and an Angel? A timmy and an Ego? When you get down to brass tacks they are all the same, do the same thing, and only look slightly different from each other.
Its only a short amount of time before these mega corp's decide that its not profitable to make different designs when they can mass produce one thing that sells. Look what the lowly Ion has done. I challenge you to go most any venue in America and not find one. I challenge you to go to any B/S/T and not see what effect its had there as well.

If you haven't noticed the problems with MANY of the new generation of markers, then you have your eyes closed. Do you not recall the problems with the new Angel? How about the almost complete lack of support or solution to the problems with the DM6 and its eyes? These were high end markers costing well in excess of $1K. Why should players have to wait for a fix on a BRAND NEW product? Because manufacturers don't care enough about quality to work these problems out before the debut. Its a matter of scheduling instead of a commitment to quality. Screw fixing whats wrong with the one we just made, the new one will be out in months and all these kids will be scrambling to get it anyway. Almost throwing out the "old" one to do so. Not that it matters cause two years from now the old one will be off the website and unless it was vastly popular there will be no parts or support for it.
Looked for parts for a DM3 lately? Look on Dye's website. Hell look on TMC.....

What new is happening in paintball? Beyond the Mini, which is only a spin on existing setup there is NOTHING new going on at all. These markers are lightened versions of the same thing thats been available since 02. As has been pointed out before, customers aren't making decisions as to what we want to use. Manufacturers and the legal tie downs of an imminent law suit to anyone that dares innovate are. Capitalism is what is killing paintball my friend. The yearning for the profits to be made by people that care nothing about the sport, only the bottom line. Capitalism is what is holding down the little guy with a good idea. Capitalism is what is causing companies to merger and buy out.

The problem for me is that is getting harder and harder to go and just have fun at any pay field anywhere. I cannot turn a blind eye like the mainstream and pretend this isn't happening. And when I do attempt to say something or do something then I am labeled the problem. I am the one complaining. I am among the small percentage of people that want to change what is "working" for these venues, so therefor I am ignored.

[SpitFire1299]

Meh, I <3 Paintball. The drama is entertaining. :)

[iambored]

Dont be surprised when you find out other "high-end" markers are being made in China too.

Everyone wants cheap. Going to China is the only way to give the customers what they want.


Don't Worry We'll Rule Rule the world in another decade; wait I thought we were China.
Hey, I didn't say it
At the rate were going and as much production is going in China all They need is a military and we are S.O.L.

[iambored]

And paintball is going down hill in masses, but not in small groups

[RogueFactor]

I would really love to know what magical land you live in that NONE of the issues that are common throughout paintball are drifting in to affect your game. I am not trying to be a smartass, but either you are ignoring the problems, you are part of the problem, or you are only playing with groups of good friends as I mentioned before.

Every day that I play I try to uphold honor and honesty with my game. I try to point out to other players to do the same. Followed by that "who are you" look and proceed to watch them do the same things over and over. There is no reasoning with these type of people. It is going to take more than an effort by one or two players. The solution lies with players, fields, AND the creation of a REAL set of rules (with teeth) to govern the game. The problem can't be fixed when the people driving paintball and running the fields don't care, or even have a standard by which to measure against.

If you pay attention you will notice that most markers already are the same. Look at the new Shocker...see anything slightly Dye looking about it? Have you looked at SP's grips lately? Look a lot like stickies eh?
Have you noticed the scramble of EVERY manufacturer to attempt to put something out that competes with the Ion?
Have you payed attention to the fact that EVERY paintball manufacturer out with little exception is either owned by or paying royalties to another manufacturer or management group?
The ones that aren't are slowly dwindling away living off the residual market left from their heyday...AGD? AKA?
Ever notice that over time everything made by the same manufaturer are very similar? So when all these companies are eventually owned by K2, National, and SP where is different going to come from?
And even the "differences" are only skin deep. How many designs of marker are mainstream right now?
Aside from various blowbacks/forwards that are and have been the same, you have the Spool valve and the Poppet valve. There are only a few different things you can do with either of those designs, and none are so far from the other within manufacturers to truly say there is any innovation or advantage.
Truly what is so different between a freestyle and a shocker? A vike and an Angel? A timmy and an Ego? When you get down to brass tacks they are all the same, do the same thing, and only look slightly different from each other.
Its only a short amount of time before these mega corp's decide that its not profitable to make different designs when they can mass produce one thing that sells. Look what the lowly Ion has done. I challenge you to go most any venue in America and not find one. I challenge you to go to any B/S/T and not see what effect its had there as well.

If you haven't noticed the problems with MANY of the new generation of markers, then you have your eyes closed. Do you not recall the problems with the new Angel? How about the almost complete lack of support or solution to the problems with the DM6 and its eyes? These were high end markers costing well in excess of $1K. Why should players have to wait for a fix on a BRAND NEW product? Because manufacturers don't care enough about quality to work these problems out before the debut. Its a matter of scheduling instead of a commitment to quality. Screw fixing whats wrong with the one we just made, the new one will be out in months and all these kids will be scrambling to get it anyway. Almost throwing out the "old" one to do so. Not that it matters cause two years from now the old one will be off the website and unless it was vastly popular there will be no parts or support for it.
Looked for parts for a DM3 lately? Look on Dye's website. Hell look on TMC.....

What new is happening in paintball? Beyond the Mini, which is only a spin on existing setup there is NOTHING new going on at all. These markers are lightened versions of the same thing thats been available since 02. As has been pointed out before, customers aren't making decisions as to what we want to use. Manufacturers and the legal tie downs of an imminent law suit to anyone that dares innovate are. Capitalism is what is killing paintball my friend. The yearning for the profits to be made by people that care nothing about the sport, only the bottom line. Capitalism is what is holding down the little guy with a good idea. Capitalism is what is causing companies to merger and buy out.

The problem for me is that is getting harder and harder to go and just have fun at any pay field anywhere. I cannot turn a blind eye like the mainstream and pretend this isn't happening. And when I do attempt to say something or do something then I am labeled the problem. I am the one complaining. I am among the small percentage of people that want to change what is "working" for these venues, so therefor I am ignored.

Damn brother. I couldnt have said it better. :cheers:

Ive bolded the parts that Ive found most glaringly true.

I think the only thing Id change is that Capitalism is killing paintball. True capitalism wouldnt allow this. True capitalism is about competition. What you see killing paintball is a baastardization of Capitalism, where those with money and power can snuff out those without for no other reason than they are big. Our system was set-up to keep this from happening.

The USPTO has been taken advantage of. So many have said that the SP Patent is weak, nonetheless it granted. That alone is enough for the big dogs who have the money to buy in, snuffing out those who cant---even though it shouldnt have been granted.

Such is life. I shoot mech. :D

[punkncat]

Damn brother. I couldnt have said it better. :cheers:

Ive bolded the parts that Ive found most glaringly true.

I think the only thing Id change is that Capitalism is killing paintball. True capitalism wouldnt allow this. True capitalism is about competition. What you see killing paintball is a baastardization of Capitalism, where those with money and power can snuff out those without for no other reason than they are big. Our system was set-up to keep this from happening.

The USPTO has been taken advantage of. So many have said that the SP Patent is weak, nonetheless it granted. That alone is enough for the big dogs who have the money to buy in, snuffing out those who cant---even though it shouldnt have been granted.

Such is life. I shoot mech. :D

Thank you brother. :clap:

I agree with your take on the bastardization of Capitalism as well. If it worked the way its supposed to then the industry would have been protected from the very thing that is destroying it.

[Jackel411]

Brilliant post!!!

This is the same way Im feeling about the game..

[hs2000]

Everything you guys are complaining about could be fixed in a second,

Just play pump.

I've never seen a pump player cheat, but I have seen a lot of pump players say, "nice shot" when you got them.

Also, look at the companies making pumps, CCM has a super high quality line, with their SS-25 and their new Series 6 (which is actually very different then previous models). All their products come with life time warranty which is excellent. For example when the SS-25 first came out, people complained about the it "farting" (although it wasn't bad), CCM redesigned the value and gave them away FREE.

Their markers are also made in California.

I don't even own a semi anymore, even though 90% that's what I'm playing against.

[stop whining buy a mag]

I usually hate the whining posts but yours is exactly on. Everyone that was fun to play with has left the game.

The only problem with playing pump is finding a good place to play. All the fields by me suck.

[Toll]

To be honest, it seems the biggest obstacle is the fact that we've reached a plateau in technology. We are no longer in the arms race to make a marker shoot faster. Smaller? *points to a1's/etc* so where do we go from there? To make the marker shoot farther would require a very creative use of physics...why do that when people are relatively happy with how far the ball goes?



What's changed about a Matrix from Gen-E to dm7?
-Eyes. Not a bad change, everyone likes eyes.
-Speed - Nope. Same board, same speed
-Weight - Yep. Your hopper now weights more than your marker.
-Reliability - Hahaha...No, seriously. Dm7's in my experience go down so fast you'd swear they were a drunken prom date.

[Phantom_Mag]

Great post.
Agreed,

Completely.

Punkncat- Youre not alone.

[Aggravated Assault]

I think the only thing Id change is that Capitalism is killing paintball. True capitalism wouldnt allow this. True capitalism is about competition. What you see killing paintball is a baastardization of Capitalism, where those with money and power can snuff out those without for no other reason than they are big. Our system was set-up to keep this from happening.




Thanks for saying this.




So often it seems the "not -so-free" market more and more. :(

[paintballfiend]

What new is happening in paintball? Beyond the Mini, which is only a spin on existing setup there is NOTHING new going on at all. These markers are lightened versions of the same thing thats been available since 02. As has been pointed out before, customers aren't making decisions as to what we want to use. Manufacturers and the legal tie downs of an imminent law suit to anyone that dares innovate are. Capitalism is what is killing paintball my friend. The yearning for the profits to be made by people that care nothing about the sport, only the bottom line. Capitalism is what is holding down the little guy with a good idea. Capitalism is what is causing companies to merger and buy out.


Yes comrade, communism will save paintball. :rolleyes:

[BigEvil]

Dont be surprised when you find out other "high-end" markers are being made in China too.

Everyone wants cheap. Going to China is the only way to give the customers what they want.

YEah tell me about it. I run a 500,000sq ft warehouse filled with 'cheap crap' all made in china. Sickening.

[RogueFactor]

YEah tell me about it. I run a 500,000sq ft warehouse filled with 'cheap crap' all made in china. Sickening.

LOL. I know the feeling.

I used to work for the worlds largest manufacturer of outdoor sporting goods furniture(we were busting at the seems in a 100,000 sq ft. warehouse). You wouldnt believe how many containers came through there.

The company was owned by the brother of a Chinese General, and supposedly finanaced by the Chinese government. I had to deal with a CostCo recall once, and completely understand the 'cheap crap' you speak of. A sub-contractor made the plastic components from substandard materials.

Just as long as everyone is prepared to buy another paintball marker next year, what does anyone care about quality? :rofl:

[Gecko]

Just to poke the fire abit
Do you guys think the same things were said when constant air was introduced into paintball?
When Semi Auto's started taking over?

[RogueFactor]

Just to poke the fire abit
Do you guys think the same things were said when constant air was introduced into paintball?
When Semi Auto's started taking over?

No doubt.

I just think this time, there is a difference. The industry leaders didnt leave the sport when those things were happening. There wasnt IP issues of companies suing other companies. There wasnt a 30% drop in sales as a result. The greed wasnt there. The volume wasnt there to be able to go overseas for manufacturing. The industry was unified behing ASTM, and regulation. Not divided. I think there wasnt a technological standstill, there were still progressions. I dont think there was as much negative press, or negative sentiment within the industry.

I dont think that as many players left the sport or went back to its roots as you are seeing now...or the advent of the electro wouldnt exist.

The beauty is...everyone has the power. Individually. And individually the masses are speaking. There is no better way than to vote with your pocketbook. That gets any manufacturers attention.

[AGD]

And who was it around here that was saying that things are not changing any different now than in the past?

With the sale of PMI and National, everyone who had a large part of this industry in the beginning is now gone. The people running the big companies like Brass Eagle and the new National/PMI don't know paintball, don't play paintball, don't know who you are and frankly don't care. They are beholding to the board of directors to make a return on their investment.

They made the investment not for the game, but for the profit potential. All the little guys got wiped out by the law suits and the lack of margin. The ones who were left sold out and now its just the biggest sharks who are left.

My personal opinion, right or wrong, is that the industry was too short sighted in coming together and making a rational decision on what it took to make paintball a long term stable industry. Wrap that up with thousands of kids screaming for more firepower and then letting them run rampant with it brought us down this inevitable road.

Collectively paintball has gotten what they asked for, a ferrari you can buy with your mom's credit card and a road to race it on where you can cut through side streets and claim you came in first.

AGD

[cyrus-the-virus]

I blame Smart Parts.

I want an 07 software 5.9 emag with breakbeam eye's and huge battery that get's me many looks from the kiddies.

Or a 07 AKA viking that consistantly gives me 2500 shot's out of a 68/4500 and +/- 1 FPS over the chorono with the sidewinder 2 regulator and the SCM-VI LPR.

OH WAIT I CAN'T CUS Smart PArts SKREWED AKA AND AGD!!!! I have to buy a half plastic POS gun that requires constant attention and expensive lube to keep operational. I can't just throw some gold cup lube or autolube in the ASA and play.

I feel cheated. I've only been playing for a little more than a year and I feel as if I've been cheated out of the glory day's of the sport, no wait, it's not a sport anymore, it's been reduced to a game.

I'm going to stick with it though. Though it's unlikly, maybe some great company will make markers with quality comparable or better than AKA and AGD, with oil maitenece, CO2 compatibility, and a fair price. I don't mind paying for quality, hell I'd payout the *** for quality if I could afford it. unfortunetly SP started the fad of releasing sub-par quality product's with piss poor quality control and even worse customer service. while getting rid of the companies who actually care.

But fortunetly there are still a few companies around who care, CCI, lucky, APE, AGD, there are more but they slip my mind....

[Lohman446]

Yes paintball can be saved. Where we are at now is not the technology, though the road to that technology was paved by the same cause of where we are now.

Where we are at now as caused by the people we allowed to play in this game. We allowed cheating, We closed our eyes even when it was first shown on tape. It was defended at the highest level by the fact "everyone had done it at one point or another". Hmmm, no everyone had not.

Once upon a time "saving" paintball was possible. The people who provided the equipment, and the tournaments, where part of the game. They could react to better the game. Granted far too many acted to better there margins.

The problem becomes, the fix is hard to swallow. Its not necessarily the equipment that needs to be dealt with, its the undesireable demographic.

When paintball was dangerous it seemed obvious that you had to be an adult to play. But then it was proven it was not too bad. Lets let others play, besides, think of the increase in sales if we increase the demographic, then we did it again. Ok, so all the problems are not the "kids" fault, and some are great stand up players. Many adults are part of the problem.

When the game was all adults who could afford to play we played because we loved the game. Winning and losing, well noone really cared, it was as much about the beer and burgers afterwards as the time spent in the woods. Winning and losing did not matter about exposure, and sponsorship, and money. Winning became more important than the enjoyment of the game....

We have seen record growth on paper. They were false, fueled by being in a growth industry, and fueled by simply making the demographic bigger. Then the big boys saw those returns, at least on paper. Now you have business men chasing false growth, sure it was there, but the reasoning had little to do with just business. Of course the sport suffers... noone is willing to call out those that do something that is detrimental to the sport, it might cost money...

[REDRT]

I fail to see what needs to be saved. I'm mean really. Anytime I go out and play I have a good time. I think some people go out of there way to look for something to complain about.

[rabidchihauhau]

I just finished writing an editorial on this subject; it will be posted to one of the news sites in a couple of days.

Its primarily addressed to the 'investment' companies that now own the #1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 (arguably) manufacturers/distributors in the industry.

Its basic concept (other than tilting at yet another windmill...if anyone has a 'lance-sharpener', I could sure use one about now...) is that there are arguably four companies that have invested huge dollars in paintball and by virtue of all of them being 'only' investment-for-profit companies, they have more in common, regarding the future success of the industry, than we've ever seen before in the industry.

I offer 9 suggestions for things they ought to be doing together that could only serve to increase their potential profits.

Pie in the sky - absolutely - but hope springs eternal that somone, somewhere will wake up and realize that doing those things are, in the long term, good for them, and that they just happen to be good for everyone else along the way.

[Lohman446]

Maybe the for profit companies will see the lack of return on investment of sponsorship in its current form and abolish it. Without the desire to be the "elite sponsored team" we might get rid of some of the attitudes :). Probably not

[Skeeter]

Lots of good posts, up and down this thread.

The sport is not dead or dying. There are MANY negative aspects of the sport, but most of these can be fixed.

The issue of hardware is one that won’t go away… We are stuck with Ion clones, for better and worse. We might see better quality at the same or lower prices, but we will never get rid of the inexpensive electros. Now we just need to tailor the game to make the best of the fact that these same markers are sometimes in the hands of inexperienced pre-teens. The right field, with the right management can accomplish that. They are not the root of all evil, IF dealt with properly. For rec-ball, a field that sets AND enforces overshooting rules will minimize the impact of the inexperienced players and their ramping hardware.

The single worst variable (IMHO) that has affected the sport is the lack of qualified field owners. How many fields are owned and operated by your basic “Bubba” who just happens to own some property? Do these owners have a vested interest in the sport or do they just want to make some $$? The “tone” of a field starts from the top down. If a field owner does not know the history of the sport, or respect the ethics & sportsmanship that was the foundation of the sport for many years, they will not be able to run a field properly. The dichotomy here is that most qualified players (field owner candidates) don’t have the resources (money / property) to start a field of their own, so you end up with the “Bubba” factor by default.

Find the right field(s) to play at. If a field does not offer the right product (good prices, enough trained refs that care about the sport, good safety, quick game turnaround, the right games on the right fields…), then find another field. They do exist. We will never get rid of poorly run fields, but we can minimize their impact on the industry by taking our $$ elsewhere. If you find a field that is run poorly, tell the owners (constructively). There is always the chance that they don’t know about the problem & they cant fix it if they don’t know it is broken. If they don’t make an effort to address the issues, find another field. If an owner is willing to make changes/improvements based on their players requests, then you might have a field worthy of your $$.

[pyrodragon]

u all complain about the price of the markers, but you'all don't realize how much you spend on paint. i know i have spent more on paint then on my own markers. think about it. how much do you spend going to a feild? feild fees are usually around $10 to $20 and sometimes that includes air and then your spending $45+ per case of paint. some fields only have two or three fields and don't offer much of a change. yes you have the cheaters, but that's easy to solve to. if you know for 100% sure that player cheated, light them up. make sure they get the point. better to call out on the first shot then on the 10th. there is only one answer to "saving" paintball, either be pro-active or sit on the sidelines. every sport goes through changes. all the major sports have changed. football, has moved fieldgoal post from the front of the endzone to the back. hockey is changing it's rule all the time. as far as the refee issues, shoot NCAA refees still get it wrong. example Oklahoma vs. Oregon game. so really that is always going to be a problem. i have the most fun when i take out t he high end markers with either my minimag or my shoebox shocker. i've even played with a spyder and a sheridan as my first markers. the problems with paintball lie within the hands of the players and noone else.

[GT]

Excellent posts in this thread, even TK is in the mix, kinda like the old AO. I think there are many issues at play here, however they culminate around the lack of leadership. In this post I will not only ***** but also offer a few solutions. Allow me to explicate:

Local Leadership

Kids have and will always act like those in which they emulate. You can give these tikes an angel or a blow gun and thier lack of ethics on the field would be the same. Let's be honest thier kids and are idiots just like when we were kids. Most field owners, other players, and parents dont care. How much does it cost to get Jr. out of my hair for a few hours? Infact I would go as far to say that most paintball fields today are grassy day cares with poor bathrooms.

Here is how we got here: One of the most odd things I have witnessed over the years is the lack of parents playing the game. I can remember everyweekend 4-5 years ago their would be atlest 6-10 dads taking the kids out for a game of paintball. Think about this, the market currently panders to the young hip kids, but here is the intresting thing, those dads, with a higher disposal income had no problem buying tons of nice gear for themselves and kids. When the market shifted to be more "hip" what it realy meant was a shift from high price per unit, less unit sales to low price per unit, w/ mass production. What manufactres have done is "marketed out" field leadership at the local level. Think of it this way, the field owner was kept in check by the players and parents, who ultimitly had the buying power.

Fast forward to today and we have what looks like a bunch of anime midgets running around with guns they can barely control with a ROF that can paint the side of a house in a matter of seconds, but no restrictions or rules to govern thier use.

National and International leadership

There is a ton of confusion in paintball right now because no one has a clue where we are going. We have God knows how many "profesional" legues, but not a proffesional body to represent the sport. Part of this stems from the fact that "professional" paintball is run by the manufacters instead of a governing body. The purpose of a governing body is to reperesent the sport of paintball, but what most dont understand is how important a cohesive body is to the development of the sport. For example, all this sillyness with PB being baned in X town. With a unified board they would have lobbying power, i.e. a budget to higher a leagal team, to fight any legislation aganist the sport. The board could also negtionate thier own insurance, develop professional certifications for airsmith, field owners, and refs. Again lots of stuff they could to insure a true sport and not simply a game.


Where do we go from here?

What is really needed is a tranisional governing body. I could invision massive amounts of fighting on who is going to be the chair of rule making or some such nonsense. These need to start with pb confrences every year in a few places through out the country. Start small with Pump and Mech only tourneys. If it becomes fun again it will grow like wild fire. Embed the governing board within these tourneys, electing officials every few years, developing rules and game elements that are fun to play.

I am not looking too fix paintball in 5 years, I am looking at the next 50 years.

[rabidchihauhau]

there is not any ONE single issue, unless you want to lump everything together and call it lack of foresight or lack of responsible business development.

Its been proven time and again that meaningful change is only ever effected from the top. So long as those with the most financial wherewithal continue to believe that 'marketing through sponsorship', 'the never-ending arms race', 'no industry org' and whatever else you care to point at remains in their financial best interest, they'll continue to do things the old way.

This is primarily characterized by short-term thinking/profit taking as opposed to 'building' something that has long-term sustainability and profit.

For example: the arms race is composed of two primary drives - the competition drive and the volume paintball drive. Rather than confining these drives and using them to everyone's advantage, the powers-that-be have caused/allowed them to influence/corrupt every single aspect of the industry. Rather than the current state of affairs, where players last an average of 18 months, teams little longer, where everyone cherrypicks everyone else, where the rules are easily subverted by someone with dollars and a new board, it would be much better to have a completely contained system whereby players progress from one level to the next in a defined manner, where teams are encouraged to have longevity, where one series feeds off of lower-level series, where the dollars that prop up one or two teams are instead used to lower the cost for all teams (and therefore increase overall participation), etc. A structured advancement (through both technology and competition levels) will encourage the individual player to participate longer and spend MORE money - even if it is over a longer length of time.

Ask a field owner what he wants? the same x number of people coming out reliably every weekend, with an occassional bump of new players, or having to generate new customers every weekend?

Again, ask what he wants? random occurrences of a huge volume of paint being used - or regular use of x amount every weekend?

What sustains player interest more? being able to play every weekend, seeing a steady improvement in skill, for a relatively affordable price, or getting thrown into the deepend where they have to spend thousands all at once if they want to be considered to be a 'decent' player?

If the kids could go out and play PB 'little leage' during the summer, with fixed technology and fixed costs (even if at little or no profit) wouldn't that serve to create much larger number of players who want to 'move to the next level'? instead of throwing everyone into the mosh pit and being happy with the two or three who end up liking it?

short-term will win almost every time against long-term - they tie up the dollars and choke off the competition - but winning the dollar game does not necessarily mean that that approach is better.

Paintball's short-term thinking is going to get swamped by the 'next-best-thing' that comes along with $ and long-range goals behind it.

[GT]

there is not any ONE single issue, unless you want to lump everything together and call it lack of foresight or lack of responsible business development.


I think this is where you are wrong. Name one sport that manufacters drive sport? Does wilson or reebok make rules or run football games. Does Rawlings advise the houston Astros on when they can and cannot open the roof on minute maid park? Does Ping or Nike determine player ranking for golf?

The problem is we have allowed the manufacters to define to the public what our product, paintball is. Manufacters should never be the top of any sport. I would value thier input as compatent proffesionals but thier input on where the sport should go is way to biasised.


it would be much better to have a completely contained system whereby players progress from one level to the next in a defined manner, where teams are encouraged to have longevity, where one series feeds off of lower-level series, where the dollars that prop up one or two teams are instead used to lower the cost for all teams (and therefore increase overall participation), etc. A structured advancement (through both technology and competition levels) will encourage the individual player to participate longer and spend MORE money - even if it is over a longer length of time.

I love this idea. It is not the first time I have heard it, but its great.

[pyrodragon]

there is not any ONE single issue, unless you want to lump everything together and call it lack of foresight or lack of responsible business development.

Its been proven time and again that meaningful change is only ever effected from the top. So long as those with the most financial wherewithal continue to believe that 'marketing through sponsorship', 'the never-ending arms race', 'no industry org' and whatever else you care to point at remains in their financial best interest, they'll continue to do things the old way.

This is primarily characterized by short-term thinking/profit taking as opposed to 'building' something that has long-term sustainability and profit.

For example: the arms race is composed of two primary drives - the competition drive and the volume paintball drive. Rather than confining these drives and using them to everyone's advantage, the powers-that-be have caused/allowed them to influence/corrupt every single aspect of the industry. Rather than the current state of affairs, where players last an average of 18 months, teams little longer, where everyone cherrypicks everyone else, where the rules are easily subverted by someone with dollars and a new board, it would be much better to have a completely contained system whereby players progress from one level to the next in a defined manner, where teams are encouraged to have longevity, where one series feeds off of lower-level series, where the dollars that prop up one or two teams are instead used to lower the cost for all teams (and therefore increase overall participation), etc. A structured advancement (through both technology and competition levels) will encourage the individual player to participate longer and spend MORE money - even if it is over a longer length of time.

Ask a field owner what he wants? the same x number of people coming out reliably every weekend, with an occassional bump of new players, or having to generate new customers every weekend?

Again, ask what he wants? random occurrences of a huge volume of paint being used - or regular use of x amount every weekend?

What sustains player interest more? being able to play every weekend, seeing a steady improvement in skill, for a relatively affordable price, or getting thrown into the deepend where they have to spend thousands all at once if they want to be considered to be a 'decent' player?

If the kids could go out and play PB 'little leage' during the summer, with fixed technology and fixed costs (even if at little or no profit) wouldn't that serve to create much larger number of players who want to 'move to the next level'? instead of throwing everyone into the mosh pit and being happy with the two or three who end up liking it?

short-term will win almost every time against long-term - they tie up the dollars and choke off the competition - but winning the dollar game does not necessarily mean that that approach is better.

Paintball's short-term thinking is going to get swamped by the 'next-best-thing' that comes along with $ and long-range goals behind it.

by far one of the best ideas i have heard. the other thing in the post ahead of yours is that there needs to be a NPPA. just like the NFLPA, MLBPA, and the NHLPA. get the players involved in the game they play. but that'll be some time before the "pro" players realize that. see the problem with a lot of paintball fields is they want to see the green without realizing what it takes. seen lots of paintball fields fall apart because they only want to see short term and not long term. sure you want to make money but like any small business the first 2 years are usually red before the they finally start to see the black. so when fields are coming and going it's hard to keep local leadership. the other problem is parents. how many times have you seen a parent get upset for looking at their children the wrong way? that's why i think little leagues would be great. use field rental markers with the only cost being paint. shoot run the paint at a discounted rate.

[pyrodragon]

I think this is where you are wrong. Name one sport that manufacters drive sport? Does wilson or reebok make rules or run football games. Does Rawlings advise the houston Astros on when they can and cannot open the roof on minute maid park? Does Ping or Nike determine player ranking for golf?

The problem is we have allowed the manufacters to define to the public what our product, paintball is. Manufacters should never be the top of any sport. I would value thier input as compatent proffesionals but thier input on where the sport should go is way to biasised.



I love this idea. It is not the first time I have heard it, but its great.

have you hear of the reebok new design for the NHL sweaters? of course it's the both reebok and the league changing the rules but reebok is gonna be the only hockey sweater maker of the NHL. don't you think they have some say?

[rabidchihauhau]

the history of sports basically divides into two eras; there is the era of sports that matured prior to mass-marketing, sports-marketing, etc and it is true that the leagues that control those sports run things, not the mfgs.

Then there is the era of 'new sports' - and you can take to the bank that virtually every single one of them is 'run by the manufacturers'.

That is, of course, only in cases where the hardware is a dominating factor - such as racings sports and the newer hi-tech ones.

I could make a very good case as well to show you that even considering the older sports - basketball, baseball, football, hockey, that the so-called mfgs dominate those industries; they donate big time (if you can use that word) to the college and non-professional levels of the game, buy players, buy stadiums, buy teams.

I guess, to put it bluntly, its much more accurate to state that there are few, if any, sports that are NOT run by the business interests associated with them.

***

As for the rest of it - ALL of those suggestions have gone before; some were even attempted. Some failed because the time was not right, others failed because it was not seen as being in the interest of the people who have the money, and still others failed because 'independance' is a threat to some business interests.

[rabidchihauhau]

skeeter,

the problem is NOT field owners who don't know what they're doing. The problem is the lack of a field organization that can help new fields get started, avoid the pitfalls and offer some standardization for the customer to judge things by.

and we don't have such an org because its not in the money interests to see such a thing; after all, some of them might get together and start making joint purchases...

[Skeeter]

skeeter,

the problem is NOT field owners who don't know what they're doing. The problem is the lack of a field organization that can help new fields get started, avoid the pitfalls and offer some standardization for the customer to judge things by.

and we don't have such an org because its not in the money interests to see such a thing; after all, some of them might get together and start making joint purchases...

LOL... We wouldn't want common sense to interfere with improving the condition of the sport. I would love to see a basic "standardized" set of requirements for playing fields. Hell, I would love to see a requirement that all official playing fields have a business license, retail license AND insurance!!! Don’t get me started on un-netted chrono areas! The field ownership business is pretty scummy, in general (there are exceptions). Too many fields opening and closing too fast & without any industry regulation. My largest beef (outside of the manufacturing industry) is that so many people try to own/run a field without a clue. These folks will come and go, and hurt the industry in the process. The ones that do manage to hang around for a while are generally accidents waiting to happen.

[GT]

have you hear of the reebok new design for the NHL sweaters? of course it's the both reebok and the league changing the rules but reebok is gonna be the only hockey sweater maker of the NHL. don't you think they have some say?


A uniform is a uniform. There has to be some kind continuity throughout the leguea. I dont know much about hockey but I would imgine that not all goallies use the same equipment, nor any player using the same brand stick. Let's be honest, what say does reebok get? The legue goes out to bid on jersey's and the market responds. That is way different that what happend right now in paintball. Manufcters want ramping guns, as do the paint suppliers, as do the field owners, more money for all reguarless of the repercutions.

[GT]

LOL... We wouldn't want common sense to interfere with improving the condition of the sport. I would love to see a basic "standardized" set of requirements for playing fields. Hell, I would love to see a requirement that all official playing fields have a business license, retail license AND insurance!!! Don’t get me started on un-netted chrono areas! The field ownership business is pretty scummy, in general (there are exceptions). Too many fields opening and closing too fast & without any industry regulation. My largest beef (outside of the manufacturing industry) is that so many people try to own/run a field without a clue. These folks will come and go, and hurt the industry in the process. The ones that do manage to hang around for a while are generally accidents waiting to happen.


+1


I could make a very good case as well to show you that even considering the older sports - basketball, baseball, football, hockey, that the so-called mfgs dominate those industries; they donate big time (if you can use that word) to the college and non-professional levels of the game, buy players, buy stadiums, buy teams.

Yes and no,
Today's more popular sports do have signifgant tie back to sports equipment and retailers, however no one in basketball is debating where the three point line is or what the size and weight of a basketball should be. I have no problem with buisness making money, but in the last 5 years alone we have seen drastic changes in paintball. 6 years ago there was no halo, no ramping, and two electros on the market, shocker and angel (emag?) and they both limited to maybe 13bps. All of these "inovations" have led to drastic changes in the sport for better or worse.

[REDRT]

I think this is where you are wrong. Name one sport that manufacters drive sport?

I can't think of any, but paintball isn't a sport really. Always has been only a game and manufactors control games how they see fit.

[Aggravated Assault]

I can't think of any, but paintball isn't a sport really. Always has been only a game...

I'd say there a bit of thruth in that.....



There are some awsome ideas mentioned and hopefully more to come. But I personally hope to see ideas on how to implement those solutions too.

Thats what I think may be the bigger hurdle...How the heck do you fight the proverbial "city hall"?

[mobsterboy]

can it be saved? anything's possible...
will it be saved? Nope
/thread

[rabidchihauhau]

speaking of field owners, here's a link to a story from my google reports:

http://www.kingcountyjournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061126/NEWS/611260326

The field owner has 'been in business 15 years' and just didn't realize he needed to get that permit, and just didn't realize that regardless of what the property is actually being used for or looks like, the zoning designation determines everything...yea, right.

The discussion in re 'control' of the 'sport': its not a sport and it won't ever be so long as there remains a direct connection between teams/officials/promoters/corporations.

NPPL went a good long way towards creating a separation at least a direct one between the league and the corps. But not far enough.

You won't see as direct an influence with the older sports simply because they are not as technologically driven.

While there is still influence peddling and cheating going on in NASCAR (another tech-driven 'sport') they at least pay lip service to the concept that they must be in control of the technology and must, as a matter of course, place limitations on the tech. Paintball has not yet realized that limiting the tech used for competition is a good thing.

How to implement these wonderful suggestions? (btw - ones which have been put on the table for the past two decades). Give up. Unless you personally want these things and have a good couple of hundred million dollars to waste on implementing them. The only way to make it happen is to start doing it and to have enough cash to sustain it for several years while it builds support AND undergoes the inevitable attacks from the outside.

[RRfireblade]

Eh, it's not so bad.

Like anything else , Paintball has just undergone a HUGE growth spurt in the last few years (which is over now) bringing in all kinds of changes and new scenerios both player and business.

It will settle down , all those in it for hte wrong reasons wil go away in time and things will get back to some kind of middle ground . . . again.

I wouldn't sweat it to much.

Play with people you like at places you enjoy and be merry . . . or , go do something else. ;)



I find myself sitting here in a serious paintball funk.

Almost all of the old school paintball companies/personalities are out of buisiness or have left. Support for any product older than about a year or two is completly gone, even from (most) manufacturer websites. New markers are being made with serious quality issues, even high end.....Angel, Dye... The resale of markers is to the point that buying new is a completly stupid thing to do, especially when you consider that no true innovation has happened in years. Any good marker a few years old can't be given away.I won't even get into the hype surrounding new releases.

With the constant corporate merging and dealing being done innovation is a thing of the past. The legal landscape prevents the grassroots development that made the sport what it is. The whole thing is slowly moving towards being one large umbrella covered by one management company. We will all be shooting the same marker...an "Ion"...

The world of rec play has degraded to the point that trying to get a friendly honest game on is unheard of. This behaviour has dribbled into the world of woodsball as well. Cheating is rampant. Many owners/promoters have resigned themselves to a shoulder shrug of "thats the way it is" rather than actively trying to do something about it. Most players have as well.

Referees have become a complete laughing stock and complete embarrasment in almost every venue across the board. There is no integrity, no consistancy, complete lack of reason to respect the authority they are supposed to represent. Demonstrated by players at any venue, anywhere.

The whole game is stenching of "squeeze it for all its worth" and get out. Disposable markers made for a short term player. A bunch of new players introduced to a world of "slotmachine" games where your only limitation is how much money you can afford to spend in paint. Cause we all know you are only as good as the amount of paint you can waste, and how fast.



The only good game that is to be found is for those of us still lucky enough to have a good group of friends to play some renegade ball in a back yard. Following the code of honor that all should play with......

[CKY_Alliance]

I would really love to know what magical land you live in that NONE of the issues that are common throughout paintball are drifting in to affect your game. I am not trying to be a smartass, but either you are ignoring the problems, you are part of the problem, or you are only playing with groups of good friends as I mentioned before.

See i do play with a group of friends, but we play together as a team and so we always play against other teams and other people that are not friends of ours, i run into some of these problems, like cheating, and they do piss me off on occasion, we have gotten the short end of the stick many times, and have gotten into many confirtations..but it's still just paintball..the GAME i play for FUN, so i dont so much ignore these problems, i know they are there i just dont let them bother me to the extent of ruining my expeirence.

Every day that I play I try to uphold honor and honesty with my game. I try to point out to other players to do the same. Followed by that "who are you" look and proceed to watch them do the same things over and over. There is no reasoning with these type of people. It is going to take more than an effort by one or two players. The solution lies with players, fields, AND the creation of a REAL set of rules (with teeth) to govern the game. The problem can't be fixed when the people driving paintball and running the fields don't care, or even have a standard by which to measure against.



If you pay attention you will notice that most markers already are the same. Look at the new Shocker...see anything slightly Dye looking about it? Have you looked at SP's grips lately? Look a lot like stickies eh?
Have you noticed the scramble of EVERY manufacturer to attempt to put something out that competes with the Ion?
Have you payed attention to the fact that EVERY paintball manufacturer out with little exception is either owned by or paying royalties to another manufacturer or management group?
The ones that aren't are slowly dwindling away living off the residual market left from their heyday...AGD? AKA?
Ever notice that over time everything made by the same manufaturer are very similar? So when all these companies are eventually owned by K2, National, and SP where is different going to come from?
And even the "differences" are only skin deep. How many designs of marker are mainstream right now?
Aside from various blowbacks/forwards that are and have been the same, you have the Spool valve and the Poppet valve. There are only a few different things you can do with either of those designs, and none are so far from the other within manufacturers to truly say there is any innovation or advantage.
Truly what is so different between a freestyle and a shocker? A vike and an Angel? A timmy and an Ego? When you get down to brass tacks they are all the same, do the same thing, and only look slightly different from each other.
Its only a short amount of time before these mega corp's decide that its not profitable to make different designs when they can mass produce one thing that sells. Look what the lowly Ion has done. I challenge you to go most any venue in America and not find one. I challenge you to go to any B/S/T and not see what effect its had there as well.

These guns may be similar to you, but to me they are still very different, the shocker minuetley(sp?) resembles the dm6..the lines are semi comparable, but it is still a totally different gun that shoot completly different, weights more/less (dun know, but in general), feels different, balanced different, different lengths, both spool valve yes but they are somewhat different..oh and different manufactuers...i think you are looking at new products too generally and baseing the "similarites" off of looks along, the quality of these guns isnt bad..they have their off batches on occasion when its new but overall everything wokrs like it should, unless you are buying something cheap..but in paintball its ever so true that "you get what you pay for" i agree ions are garbage..but look at the new market it opened..so maybe sooner or later the infamous phrase above wont be true to the sport..and you will be able to buy something quality for cheap..because im with you i dont like the fact that my 1100 dollar gun is now worth 600 or less... and the guns perform fine, yes they do break, but look at what they do and how they are used..these thing cycle reddiculous amounts per second,but even if your just shooting 15 or less..the wear and tear is riddiculous,friction is real...even if the guns are maintained properly they will go down some way or somehow eventually..and thats not unexpected.. and i dont believe there is a gun that WON'T break someway..Not even everyones Beloved MAG, yes they break people..you just dont see it often because they arent used the same way as angels, Dm's,timmys,shockers.

If you haven't noticed the problems with MANY of the new generation of markers, then you have your eyes closed. Do you not recall the problems with the new Angel? How about the almost complete lack of support or solution to the problems with the DM6 and its eyes? These were high end markers costing well in excess of $1K. Why should players have to wait for a fix on a BRAND NEW product? Because manufacturers don't care enough about quality to work these problems out before the debut. Its a matter of scheduling instead of a commitment to quality. Screw fixing whats wrong with the one we just made, the new one will be out in months and all these kids will be scrambling to get it anyway. Almost throwing out the "old" one to do so. Not that it matters cause two years from now the old one will be off the website and unless it was vastly popular there will be no parts or support for it.
Looked for parts for a DM3 lately? Look on Dye's website. Hell look on TMC.....

I know the dm6's had an eye alignment problem (well the 1st gens) i dont know much about it, i bought a Pm6 and was fine..i doubt dye just closed there eyes to the problem.. but like i said i dont know all of the details, nor do i with the angel..but in almost every industry...first generation products tend to have problems..there are some things manufactuer test wont catch. Oh and i do believe Dave Youngblood said they still cary much of the dm3 stuff..call them if you need the parts..they may not have it on the web site because its old but they have not just stopped supporting the older model owners.

What new is happening in paintball? Beyond the Mini, which is only a spin on existing setup there is NOTHING new going on at all. These markers are lightened versions of the same thing thats been available since 02. As has been pointed out before, customers aren't making decisions as to what we want to use. Manufacturers and the legal tie downs of an imminent law suit to anyone that dares innovate are. Capitalism is what is killing paintball my friend. The yearning for the profits to be made by people that care nothing about the sport, only the bottom line. Capitalism is what is holding down the little guy with a good idea. Capitalism is what is causing companies to merger and buy out.

The problem for me is that is getting harder and harder to go and just have fun at any pay field anywhere. I cannot turn a blind eye like the mainstream and pretend this isn't happening. And when I do attempt to say something or do something then I am labeled the problem. I am the one complaining. I am among the small percentage of people that want to change what is "working" for these venues, so therefor I am ignored.


well the mid end electro market is new, many tank reg companies are re-desiging their regs so they are smaller and still perform as well or better, same with guns they are getting lighter and they are trying to get them to perform better, mask and hoppers are still advancing, products are still improving,..i believe you look at new innovations to vague...

And yes the legal problems are riddiculous,but welcome to big business...


I may have missed a few points,but you get the idea.

[hitech]

...and a road to race it on where you can cut through side streets and claim you came in first.

Sounds like the "Need for Speed" game my kids play on the XBox. :rofl:

[tech-chan]

The whole game is stenching of "squeeze it for all its worth" and get out. Disposable markers made for a short term player. A bunch of new players introduced to a world of "slotmachine" games where your only limitation is how much money you can afford to spend in paint. Cause we all know you are only as good as the amount of paint you can waste, and how fast.


Ok, I think we need to requuire a noob to play with a simple mechanical marker that does not shoot above 5 balls per second, a gravity feed hopper, a 20 ounce co2 tank and a mask...

:wow: FOR A YEAR!!! :wow:


Until he proves that he is not taken with the mercantilism bug he/she should play with noob gear.
Yes, i know that we have the want to be faster, invisible and have our paintballs fly over a mile before they start to curve. You don't need that, and you don't need an Ion or a Ego the first time you play!!! :nono:

Thank you, tech-chan

[robnix]

speaking of field owners, here's a link to a story from my google reports:

http://www.kingcountyjournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061126/NEWS/611260326

The field owner has 'been in business 15 years' and just didn't realize he needed to get that permit, and just didn't realize that regardless of what the property is actually being used for or looks like, the zoning designation determines everything...yea, right.




The writer is missing pieces of the story. He's been working with the County for several years on the permitting, because the county had nothing on the books regarding outdoor paintball fields in unincorporated areas and didn't know how to deal with this.

[rabidchihauhau]

for fantasy's sake, here's the way it should work:

1. MINIMUM of 1 year of documented/certified STOCK GUN PLAY. The 'year' is defined as a minimum of 32 days of play using only tilt-feed, pump operated markers with 12-gram cartridges as the only legal airsource. All paint must be carried in ten round tubes; players may not carry more than 120 rounds per game. Fields will 'punch the players' card and, after they've got 32 notches, they can move on to:

2. minimum of 1 year of PUMP GUN PLAY. Pump guns may have gravity feed loaders and/or hoppers. CO2 bottles can be used as an air source. 32 days minimum. Paint may be carried in tubes or 75 or 100 round pods. Nor more than 350 rounds may be carried per game.

3. Minimum of 1 year of STOCK SEMI-AUTO/DOUBLE-ACTION/ASSISTED PUMP play. Gas is still limited to CO2. 500 rounds of paint may be carried. Agitating hoppers may be used - but they may NOT be 'force-feed'. Semi-autos, double-actions and assisted modes are limited to mechanical and mechanical-pneumatic systems.

4. Minimum of 1 year of ELECTRO-SEMI-AUTO. Markers may utilize a solenoid to trip the sear; NO ENHANCED FIRING MODES AT ALL.

5. 1 Year ENHANCED ELECTRONIC MARKER play. Open - anything goes.

So - five years playing the sport, four of them without enhancement. You can also shave up to 8 'punches' off your card by participating in a day of play using one of the 'lesser' standards (play with stock class while everyone else used semi-auto) so long as you spend the entire day using the lower tech.

What does it get you? Well, let's see. It keeps you in the game for five years, almost 4 times longer than the average. It gives you three years of play with relatively low costs. It makes you purchase at least five different markers. It gets you a card with lots of holes punched in it. It gets you skills on the field you wouldn't have otherwise. It gets you laughed at by the other paintball idiots who aren't on a 'track'...

[hitech]

for fantasy's sake, here's the way it should work...

Do I get credit for previous years playing at those levels? ;)

:cheers:

[rabidchihauhau]

ok - sorry that I didn't assume that the article writer was being an idiot...

however; as I have learned over the years, if something is not specifically zoned for what you want to do, you can't do it. If paintball is not booked as an 'industrial activity', you can't play in industrial zoning. If its not booked as an outdoor recreation, you can't use hunting grounds. etc., etc.

Zoning boards do have a way of defining things the way they want them to be defined and that's half the battle, but the biggest mistake is assuming up front that because something is not specifically prohibited, it must therefore be allowed. The zoning boards take unkindly to this kind of usurption of their power and will usually retaliate by making you spend all your money in futile attempts to get them to change their minds; of course, they won't tell you that, all they'll say is, well, need to do this other thing, or, you need a x-permit for another $1500 bucks...etc., etc. we'll reschedule you for the next hearing, not prepared to vote right now, we need another study...

buddy, if you are hearing anything like the above - find a different piece of property.

[rabidchihauhau]

Do I get credit for previous years playing at those levels? ;)

:cheers:

ABSOLUTELY NOT!

First you have to buy a membership card - its only $50 for the year.

Then you have to participate at participating field facilities (ONLY authorized ones) - but there aren't any yet...

Third, you know everyone in paintball cheats just about all the time, and that's the primary reason we can't give prior credit - all the tournament wannabes will get their friends to certify for them and we'll be right back where we started - with something like 23 million undeserving players out on the fields making ****** out of themselves...

Nice try tho. If you don't like it, just start a competing organization, offer 24 day certifications, we'll go into competition, call each other all kinds of nasty names, backstab each other and waterdown and dilute the entire program until its meaninless...

[hitech]

If you don't like it, just start a competing organization, offer 24 day certifications, we'll go into competition, call each other all kinds of nasty names, backstab each other and waterdown and dilute the entire program until its meaninless...

Sounds like a plan. Your on! :shooting:

:rofl:

BTW, I aint no wanna-be tourny player. I played at the highest level (20 years ago, so what if there only was one level). :p

:cheers:

[openboater]

You are living the modern life cycle of recreation sports.

x-c skiing
alpine skiing
tennis
etc
etc

Only FISHING is different. but then, fishing embraces BEER.

[txaggie08]

I wish message boards had been popular back in the old days, then we could dredge these arguments between "single vs double trigger" "e vs. mech"


And the holy grail of paintball pissing contests "MAG v. cocker"


Paitnball has been changing since it first got started...

[rabidchihauhau]

well, I can tell you from personal experience that the first 'arguments' were for barrel length and whether or not the new-fangled 'constant air' should be allowed in tournaments or not.

The barrel length argument was 'no barrel over 10" in length allowed in tournament play'.

that lasted about half a season.

the argument against CA managed to hold on for about three seasons and was finally broken by the Ironmen of CA at a World Cup in NYC. And of course, Lively allowed it from the get-go.

The next argument was against agitating hoppers, then over the introduction of HPA (I fought that one with Tom at the Paintcheck 5 Man event back in, I think it was '92. For the record, I had no problem with Tom, and no inherent problem with the technology. My main concern was the lack of testing and experience data and the fact that such "potentially" influential technology should not be introed at a tournament for the first time...)

Then we hit the electro-marker BS; we tried to hold the line at 'gravity feed hoppers only' reasoning that it was easy to police and enforce and would inherently limit the ROF, no matter what kind of marker you were using, to about 13 BPS.

Now it doesn't matter anymore - everyone seems to think that 'cheating tech' is 'cool'...

[hitech]

the argument against CA managed to hold on for about three seasons and was finally broken by the Ironmen of CA at a World Cup in NYC. And of course, Lively allowed it from the get-go.


Ummmm, no...

I played in Lively tournaments that did not allow CA. My buddy bought one of those new 6 packs from AGD. That thing made a huge difference. I bought one after that tournament, and never used it in an actual tournament...

:cheers:

I was told by AGD that the 6 pack was intended to allow CA in tournaments, so I warned before I bought it.


Now it doesn't matter anymore - everyone seems to think that 'cheating tech' is 'cool'...

Yup, and it's not just confinded to ramping...

[txaggie08]

I came in after CA was being allowed, but the hopper debate was still running.

I also remember the HPA arguments and all the crazy things being said about it :)

[txaggie08]

just sat and watched some youtube videos of tourny play.....


Why has it become "cool" to see how close you can get to someone then bonus ball them?

[Aggravated Assault]

for fantasy's sake, here's the way it should work:

1. MINIMUM of 1 year of documented/certified STOCK GUN PLAY. The 'year' is defined as a minimum of 32 days of play using only tilt-feed, pump operated markers with 12-gram cartridges as the only legal airsource. All paint must be carried in ten round tubes; players may not carry more than 120 rounds per game. Fields will 'punch the players' card and, after they've got 32 notches, they can move on to:

2. minimum of 1 year of PUMP GUN PLAY. Pump guns may have gravity feed loaders and/or hoppers. CO2 bottles can be used as an air source. 32 days minimum. Paint may be carried in tubes or 75 or 100 round pods. Nor more than 350 rounds may be carried per game.

3. Minimum of 1 year of STOCK SEMI-AUTO/DOUBLE-ACTION/ASSISTED PUMP play. Gas is still limited to CO2. 500 rounds of paint may be carried. Agitating hoppers may be used - but they may NOT be 'force-feed'. Semi-autos, double-actions and assisted modes are limited to mechanical and mechanical-pneumatic systems.

4. Minimum of 1 year of ELECTRO-SEMI-AUTO. Markers may utilize a solenoid to trip the sear; NO ENHANCED FIRING MODES AT ALL.

5. 1 Year ENHANCED ELECTRONIC MARKER play. Open - anything goes.

So - five years playing the sport, four of them without enhancement. You can also shave up to 8 'punches' off your card by participating in a day of play using one of the 'lesser' standards (play with stock class while everyone else used semi-auto) so long as you spend the entire day using the lower tech.

What does it get you? Well, let's see. It keeps you in the game for five years, almost 4 times longer than the average. It gives you three years of play with relatively low costs. It makes you purchase at least five different markers. It gets you a card with lots of holes punched in it. It gets you skills on the field you wouldn't have otherwise. It gets you laughed at by the other paintball idiots who aren't on a 'track'...


Here's a good example. For arguments sake say there are several people who agree and want to help implement those ideas in the hopes that it catches on. Because, well, all great ideas have to start from scratch somewhere.

The old saying is: you can take a horse to water but you can't make em' drink. How would/could you sell this idea so players would actually want to be a part of it? What could be the "carrot" that draws them in? Any idea for that matter, not just the one above...

[tech-chan]

Guys I have sooo flouded myspace with this...
Do the same for the good of the sport!
Thanks tech-chan

[indecisive]

just sat and watched some youtube videos of tourny play.....


Why has it become "cool" to see how close you can get to someone then bonus ball them?


The gun just keeps going they don't have much of a choice. I'm not defending this behavior however as I abhor the idea of my gun shooting more times than I pull the trigger.

[CKY_Alliance]

The gun just keeps going they don't have much of a choice. I'm not defending this behavior however as I abhor the idea of my gun shooting more times than I pull the trigger.


Ahh, Ramping ...or PSP atleast.. is much easier to controll then you would think, there is no excuse for not being able to controll your gun...if you can't controll it then you don't need to be using it.

[Lohman446]

Ahh, Ramping ...or PSP atleast.. is much easier to controll then you would think, there is no excuse for not being able to controll your gun...if you can't controll it then you don't need to be using it.


As a general rule a ramping marker, with teh trigger set reasonably, is far easier to control than the "semi" marker with the trigger set "well"

[hitech]

As a general rule a ramping marker, with the trigger set reasonably, is far easier to control than the "semi" marker with the trigger set "well"

Unless of course your ramping marker has a "sticky" trigger and doesn't always return well, like mine did last time. :wow:

[RogueFactor]

As a general rule a ramping marker, with teh trigger set reasonably, is far easier to control than the "semi" marker with the trigger set "well"

Are you saying it takes more skill to control a semi marker while shooting? :D

[CKY_Alliance]

As a general rule a ramping marker, with teh trigger set reasonably, is far easier to control than the "semi" marker with the trigger set "well"


This is especially true with timmy's..they like to bounce, but then again any gun can be set to do that....

[Altimas]

Im just proud of all you guys, really I am. No one posted a picture of that Owl.

[flashgordon]

Im just proud of all you guys, really I am. No one posted a picture of that Owl.

http://images.yelp.com/bphoto/isV9cXlxoqeWAy5RTulGCg/l

:( Couldn't resist

[Lohman446]

Are you saying it takes more skill to control a semi marker while shooting? :D

No, I'm saying at least in ramping noone is trying to convince me "no, its true semi, I just set it really really well"

[txaggie08]

no this wasnt ramping.....


These guys are running inwards in an effort to get as close as possible BEFORE they start firing. Making a move to bunker and waiting till the barrel is a few inches from the opponent.....


When i was big into it, we called that "a good way to have the field own kick you out", not "cool".

Is this some new macho thing the younger crowd enjoys ?

[geekwarrior]

These guys are running inwards in an effort to get as close as possible BEFORE they start firing. Making a move to bunker and waiting till the barrel is a few inches from the opponent.....




they don't have shooting skills anymore so they have to get as close as possible to make sure they don't miss... :rolleyes:

does a football player tackle a QB hard enough to get the tackle or does he try and hit him as hard as he can to shake him up?

if you watched videos from about 3-5 years ago it actually seemed worse..the player would stick his gun out into the guys side and pull the trigger :wow:

[flashgordon]

they don't have shooting skills anymore so they have to get as close as possible to make sure they don't miss... :rolleyes:

does a football player tackle a QB hard enough to get the tackle or does he try and hit him as hard as he can to shake him up?

if you watched videos from about 3-5 years ago it actually seemed worse..the player would stick his gun out into the guys side and pull the trigger :wow:

In speedball sometimes it's easier to bunker than get your *** into a prolonged fire fight

[txaggie08]

THeres a huge difference between bunkering someone, and being cruel to your oponent. IM not talking about sliding around the side fo the bunker for a quick shot at him. Im talking about going to extra effort to get withing 1-2 feet and unload 4-5 shots into there head(or back)...


Thats not sporting, thats horse****.

To make the football comparison, these guys are pulling chop-blocks, not making a good tackle.

[CKY_Alliance]

THeres a huge difference between bunkering someone, and being cruel to your oponent. IM not talking about sliding around the side fo the bunker for a quick shot at him. Im talking about going to extra effort to get withing 1-2 feet and unload 4-5 shots into there head(or back)...


Thats not sporting, thats horse****.

To make the football comparison, these guys are pulling chop-blocks, not making a good tackle.

See the 4-5 is to make sure they break..and if u play speedball and think this is overshooting..well you might wanna consider woodsball..then again thats barely considered overshooting in woodsball as well...and in the back or head (i prefer neck) it's probably so (and in my case) so they dont turn on you to try and get the 1 for 1...you shoot them in a soft spot then they are more focused on the pain then tryin to turn on you...


and dont get me wrong..im talking side of the neck where it is generally solid, but hurts..i am never intintionally trying to hurt anyone when playing.. i just want to make sure they arent going to hurt me and ruin my effort to eliminate them..

[Beemer]

See the 4-5 is to make sure they break..and if u play speedball and think this is overshooting..well you might wanna consider woodsball..then again thats barely considered overshooting in woodsball as well...and in the back or head (i prefer neck) it's probably so (and in my case) so they dont turn on you to try and get the 1 for 1...you shoot them in a soft spot then they are more focused on the pain then tryin to turn on you...


and dont get me wrong..im talking side of the neck where it is generally solid, but hurts..i am never intintionally trying to hurt anyone when playing.. i just want to make sure they arent going to hurt me and ruin my effort to eliminate them..

Let me guess. I bet you are 19 or younger. Thats a contradiction. Sounds like intent to me. Is your umbrella policy payed up?

Peace Out

[rabidchihauhau]

Ummmm, no...

I played in Lively tournaments that did not allow CA. My buddy bought one of those new 6 packs from AGD. That thing made a huge difference. I bought one after that tournament, and never used it in an actual tournament...

:cheers:

I was told by AGD that the 6 pack was intended to allow CA in tournaments, so I warned before I bought it.



Yup, and it's not just confinded to ramping...

The 6 pak sold out on its introduction at the Lively Masters BECAUSE they allowed CA and it was just about the only way that someone using 12-grams could keep up on their air changes.

I believe that Tom has said in the past that he introed the product in order to give people a reason to stay with 12-grams.

One of the things that made the Masters nationally popular was the fact that they allowed CA, and therefore many of the top west coast teams could compete in a manner they were familiar with.

My team stuck with 12-grams, believing we had an advantage in our ability to vary the output pressure of our valves by either shooting down a 12-gram (for those 'blooper' shots that just managed to curve over a bunker) or producing 'zingers' by never shooting more than 5 shots on a 12-gram and rapidly changing (with the aforemnentioned 6Pak+). This of course supercharged the valve and boosted FPS.

There was also the added advantage that you could always discourage pesky referees by positioning yourself so that the 12-grams discharged from the Pak would bounce off their heads, followed by "hey, I warned you to move..."

***

Incentive for the skills progression? How about something as simple as a hopper sticker?

To formalize things a bit more if someone is interested in the above:

Stock Gun Qualified (SG)
Pump Gun Qualified (PG)
Stock Semi Qualified (SS)
Electronic Semi Qualified (ES)
Enhanced Electronic Qualified (EE)

You would need at least the following for any kind of certification to have meaning:

1. registration of the player using some verifiable form of ID and a registration database
2. a list of fields that offer various levels of play; info on a field would have to include types and dates of what they offered and an 'approved contact' for the location who can verify attendance and participation
3. a list of events offering various levels of play and the same contact info as above
4. individuals - above reproach and beyond political BS - to serve as regional coordinators; these people would work with the fields and events to 'certify' various player's attendance.
5. a list of markers and modifications allowed under each classification
6. a 'cheating report' structure to help oversee potential abuse
7. a 'court of last appeal' to arbitrate disputes and resolve issues
8. a list of things that people can do to earn 'days'; for example, putting together a successful stock gun team, event or series ought to be worth something...

[rabidchihauhau]

the court of last appeals might be staffed by long-time people still in the game, such as Palmer, or Bud, or maybe even refugees from the game, such as Tom (and, increasingly, myself)...

[Beemer]

Hey you forgot the "How to make my gun safe and be safe sticker." So I dont shoot out someones eye in a safe zone. That would be [SQC] Safety Qualified and certified.

[BigEvil]

LOL. I know the feeling.


Just as long as everyone is prepared to buy another paintball marker next year, what does anyone care about quality? :rofl:

Let everyone keep buying new markers. Me and my mags will still be on the field tearing them up.

[Beemer]

well, I can tell you from personal experience that the first 'arguments' were for barrel length and whether or not the new-fangled 'constant air' should be allowed in tournaments or not.



The next argument was against agitating hoppers, then over the introduction of HPA (I fought that one with Tom at the Paintcheck 5 Man event back in, I think it was '92. For the record, I had no problem with Tom, and no inherent problem with the technology. My main concern was the lack of testing and experience data and the fact that such "potentially" influential technology should not be introed at a tournament for the first time...)


Huh So YOU were one of those guys everyone was talking about holding up the train. :eek:

Come on TKs middle name was Safety First.



Airgun Designs, Inc. has been a long-time supporter of the IPPA and applauds their efforts to establish safety standards for our industry. We feel that we are acting responsibly in not selling nitrogen systems until the safety questions have been answered. At the time of this writing, there are less than twelve nitrogen systems in existence. One of our systems has recently been tested by AUTHORIZED TESTING INC. a DOT proved testing facility and consultant to the IPPA on safety issues. Page seven of the report states "BASED UPON THE TEST DATA OBTAINED AND DOCUMENTED HEREIN, THE AIRGUN SYSTEM SUBMITTED FOR EVALUATION APPEARS TO BE WELL ENGINEERED AND HAS INHERENT PRESSURE CAPABILITIES WELL IN EXCESS OF THOSE ASSOCIATED WITH NORMAL USE." Complete copies of this report are available from Airgun Designs at no charge.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=161699&highlight=tanks

[Beemer]

***

As for the rest of it - ALL of those suggestions have gone before; some were even attempted. Some failed because the time was not right, others failed because it was not seen as being in the interest of the people who have the money, and still others failed because 'independance' is a threat to some business interests.

This is a cut from post #41. Guess that sums up why the NPPL and the IPPA didnt stay hand in hand. They all want a bigger piece of the pie when theres plenty to go around. Even to blow off standards and safety to get that bigger piece.

[cynikal]

i remember playing locally in my first tourney with a 6 pak - they told me to loose it (they said that it allowed 'to fast of a 12gram change'. if i remember correctly that was debated for a while just before everyone turn on to CA.

[slateman]

You are living the modern life cycle of recreation sports.

x-c skiing
alpine skiing
tennis
etc
etc

Only FISHING is different. but then, fishing embraces BEER.
And softball. You drink beer and once in a while, hit a ball.

As for the original topic, paintball is fine. Leave it alone.

[Lohman446]

And softball. You drink beer and once in a while, hit a ball.

As for the original topic, paintball is fine. Leave it alone.


Beh, you can drink around paintball too. Ask AFTICA

[CKY_Alliance]

Let me guess. I bet you are 19 or younger. Thats a contradiction. Sounds like intent to me. Is your umbrella policy payed up?

Peace Out


Ye i sure am, but there is deffinatley a difference in getting shot in the adams apple area, and the side of the neck..and im not worried about my umbrella policy, if they are on the field then they are are/should be aware of the dangers of playing.

[hitech]

The 6 pak sold out on its introduction at the Lively Masters BECAUSE they allowed CA and it was just about the only way that someone using 12-grams could keep up on their air changes.

I believe that Tom has said in the past that he introed the product in order to give people a reason to stay with 12-grams.

Interesting, we were both at the same event and remember things much differently. That is assuming we are talking about the same year. I'm referring to the first tournament the 6 pack was introduced at. However, it was a long time ago, and memory is the second thing to go... :rofl:

However, I remember very vividly the conversation I had with a representative of AGD (it wasn't Tom). He said they made the 6 pack to get CA allowed in tournaments. They got the idea from comments on product registration cards. They wanted CA allowed in tournaments because they had developed a semi and it wouldn't work with 12 grams. If I remember correctly (this part I'm not sure of) the semi was the panther.



There was also the added advantage that you could always discourage pesky referees by positioning yourself so that the 12-grams discharged from the Pak would bounce off their heads, followed by "hey, I warned you to move..."

:rofl: I buddy of mine hit a ref in the shins with one at the masters and uttered that exact phrase...

:cheers:

[hitech]

the court of last appeals might be staffed by long-time people still in the game, such as Palmer, or Bud, or maybe even refugees from the game, such as Tom (and, increasingly, myself)...

If I can get Tom AND Palmer to vouch for me can I... :rofl:

[hitech]

No, I'm saying at least in ramping noone is trying to convince me "no, its true semi, I just set it really really well"

Actually, that is one of the easiest things to fix. Just make the trigger meet ASTM standards.

[Lohman446]

Actually, that is one of the easiest things to fix. Just make the trigger meet ASTM standards.


True, but most of the time they didn't demand it

[rabidchihauhau]

Huh So YOU were one of those guys everyone was talking about holding up the train. :eek:

Come on TKs middle name was Safety First.



http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=161699&highlight=tanks

Yes Beemer, I was.

And I don't mind admitting it, because when it comes to technical safety issues, no one's 'word' is good enough for me - I want to see the tests, the certifications, I want to see what the testing criteria is AND I want to see how things are going to be handled in the real world as opposed to the laboratory.

It also didn't help things that although I knew 'of' TK at the time, I didn't really 'know' him. Now that I do, I would be willing to give a lot of credence and reliance to things he says - but I'd still want to see the test data...

[Skeeter]

...There was also the added advantage that you could always discourage pesky referees by positioning yourself so that the 12-grams discharged from the Pak would bounce off their heads, followed by "hey, I warned you to move..."

***

Incentive for the skills progression? How about something as simple as a hopper sticker?

To formalize things a bit more if someone is interested in the above:

Stock Gun Qualified (SG)
Pump Gun Qualified (PG)
Stock Semi Qualified (SS)
Electronic Semi Qualified (ES)
Enhanced Electronic Qualified (EE)

You would need at least the following for any kind of certification to have meaning:

1. registration of the player using some verifiable form of ID and a registration database
2. a list of fields that offer various levels of play; info on a field would have to include types and dates of what they offered and an 'approved contact' for the location who can verify attendance and participation
3. a list of events offering various levels of play and the same contact info as above
4. individuals - above reproach and beyond political BS - to serve as regional coordinators; these people would work with the fields and events to 'certify' various player's attendance.
5. a list of markers and modifications allowed under each classification
6. a 'cheating report' structure to help oversee potential abuse
7. a 'court of last appeal' to arbitrate disputes and resolve issues
8. a list of things that people can do to earn 'days'; for example, putting together a successful stock gun team, event or series ought to be worth something...

LOL. I never had the accuracy with the 6-pak, that I had with my Micro-CAII. Pinged an opponent in the back of the head when he chrono'ed hot, comming off the field. Almost by accident.

Otherwise, a very good post. Wish it was a possible dream. When is that next AO day, anyway?

[rabidchihauhau]

In order of versatility:

RAT Attack changer (screw-off type with a coarse thread; we taped two together for a 'fast-changer'
Micro-CA (we liked them very much but got away from using stocks...)
Line SI Lever Changer (cammed changer; I had mine modified so that it discharged to the ground instead of out one side - made it much more ergonomic)
Six-Pak+; man, there was NOTHING like cooking off five rounds, changing and doing another five for a total of 35 rounds; we all shot about 7 rounds per second on auto-trigger, so that was about 5 seconds of sustained, blistering fire and a very good fps; my guys could load, change 12-grams and fire the next round all in one linear motion and it was a beautiful thing to watch when all 15 of us were 'air mailing' the other team...

[trevorjk]

paintball CAN be saved!!!

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2262149#post2262149

just build forts and an army of snowmen and get lots of snowball launchers (younger brothers to throw them) and go all out! :ninja:

[hitech]

my guys could load, change 12-grams and fire the next round all in one linear motion and it was a beautiful thing to watch when all 15 of us were 'air mailing' the other team...

I remember practicing changing. "You" lost very little time changing. All that work and practice and I never used it in a tournament...

[rabidchihauhau]

I've talked Tom to death on this, but I'll risk annoying everyone further by asking here:

does anyone have any 'square springs' for 6paks?

I have a sixpak+, but no spring...

[hitech]

Sorry, I traded my six pack away awhile back. I know someone who still has one, but I'm sure he won't part with just the spring.

[Beemer]

I've talked Tom to death on this, but I'll risk annoying everyone further by asking here:

does anyone have any 'square springs' for 6paks?

I have a sixpak+, but no spring...

Ya I have one too. But its in my #010 6pakPlus which is almost NIB condition.
Sorry you didnt say an extra, couldnt resist. :argh:


Peace Out

[CoolHand]

See the 4-5 is to make sure they break..and if u play speedball and think this is overshooting..well you might wanna consider woodsball..then again thats barely considered overshooting in woodsball as well...and in the back or head (i prefer neck) it's probably so (and in my case) so they dont turn on you to try and get the 1 for 1...you shoot them in a soft spot then they are more focused on the pain then tryin to turn on you...


and dont get me wrong..im talking side of the neck where it is generally solid, but hurts..i am never intintionally trying to hurt anyone when playing.. i just want to make sure they arent going to hurt me and ruin my effort to eliminate them..

See, this attitude right here is THE problem as I see it in PB today. They will cheat against me, so I have to pre-emptively treat each person as though they had already cheated.

Somehow, I manage to play speedball and hold my own while still:

1) Never putting more than three balls on a person, EVER.
2) Never wiping a hit or intimidating a ref into changing their call.
3) Never intentionally bunkering someone who is of less skill than I.
4) Never intentionally shooting someone on exposed skin while bunkering them.

Somehow I manage to play speedball and not break any of those four edicts.

It IS possible, it just takes a little effort.

My biggest gripe currently is that no one has any honor or respect for anyone anymore.

They're rude, crude, and cheat, while simultaneously bragging about all of the above. Makes me want to strangle someone, and then kick their parents in the balls. Even worse is when said miscreant is my age or just a fuzz younger (IE of an age that they REALLY should know better by now).

Basically, at this point, I only play with people I know, at fields that I trust to be safe and not packed with douche-bags.

I just bought some land about six months ago, so after I get my house built, I am very likely going to invest in a sup-air field and some grass seed. :ninja:

[AGD]

Ok, a couple of points:

We developed the 6Pak because of the need for more air for the gravity feed semi prototype (Panther) we had developed to be usable in tournaments. But besides that it was a natural extension of the super popular Micro-CA (which stood for micro-constant-air get it?). We developed it to sell and make money, if we knew it would have been eclipsed by them allowing CA in tournaments we wouldn't have bothered.

We did intro it at the Masters and we sold out the first afternoon and had to have people back at the factory make more and next day air them down. They only allowed 12 grams in that tournament but there had been discussion of CA for the future. The biggest problem they percieved was the inability to refill the tanks fast enough. At the end of the tourney I think it was Budd had showed Jim his fill system and Jim decided to allow CA in the future. Of course our crack marketing department took full credit for killing off 12 gram tournaments ;)

The second point is that we had cheating way back then. Like now it was hard to do anything about it. It was fought by clean teams promoting their reps and vouching for other clean playing teams. It was the highest honor if another team told you "we would play them without refs". Unfortunately in the woods it was really hard to do a good ref job and the refs were all volunteers if I remember right. The cheaters started to win more and it was all over after that.

My two cents from 20 years in this game.

AGD

[cyrus-the-virus]

Am I the onlyone who has troble aiming their gun while using ramping? :confused:

I tried out ramping on a supair field (first time ever owning a marker with ramping) and I coulden't aim worth a crap.

Swiched over to semi, and the next game I got 5 out of seven people from my back-left can. :rolleyes:

Am I alone on this?

[Aggravated Assault]

Wish it was a possible dream. When is that next AO day, anyway?

This got me thinking. There seems to always be someone wanting to do an AO day or something. Theres always willing AOers to come out.

If someone had a vision or idea, where would you start? Events maybe? There's threads about how dissapointed many of us are with the current climate in paintball. Why couldn't the people on AO put on an event, tournament, whatever that implements those things many here believe in. Show everyone how its done.


An AO event not for us, but by us.


Crazy? Dont know, but Just think of the wealth of knowledge on these boards. People with their own paintball buisnesses, experienced refs, field owners, people who work with/for distributers, pro shops,custom shops, and you name it. It wouldn't be for not knowing how.

[RogueFactor]

Am I the onlyone who has troble aiming their gun while using ramping? :confused:

I tried out ramping on a supair field (first time ever owning a marker with ramping) and I coulden't aim worth a crap.

Swiched over to semi, and the next game I got 5 out of seven people from my back-left can. :rolleyes:

Am I alone on this?

If you think its hard to aim while shooting 15 bps ramping, try to aim while shooting 15 bps in semi. Then try it using a mechanical marker. ;)

Youll find it takes a lot more skill to do.

[hitech]

Of course our crack marketing department took full credit for killing off 12 gram tournaments ;)


Just to be clear, no one from AGD ever said that to me. They just didn't disbute it when I said they did. And that includes you, Tom :wow:

[cyrus-the-virus]

If you think its hard to aim while shooting 15 bps ramping, try to aim while shooting 15 bps in semi. Then try it using a mechanical marker. ;)

Youll find it takes a lot more skill to do.


I don't shoot 15BPS because that 5 more BPS than I need :)

Also you did notice the part where I said I swiched FROM ramping TO semi right :rofl:

Your post confused me to no possable end....

[RogueFactor]

I don't shoot 15BPS because that 5 more BPS than I need :)

Also you did notice the part where I said I swiched FROM ramping TO semi right :rofl:

Your post confused me to no possable end....


Yes, I did notice that. The implication from my post is to say you would find it harder to aim while not ramping if you could actually pull the same speed in semi as you were shooting in ramping.

I shall rephrase for you ;)

If you think its hard to aim while ramping, try to aim while shooting the same speed as you were ramping in semi. Then try aiming while shooting that same speed using a mechanical marker. ;)

Youll find it takes a lot more skill to do.

[cyrus-the-virus]

Yes, I did notice that. The implication from my post is to say you would find it harder to aim while not ramping if you could actually pull the same speed in semi as you were shooting in ramping.

I shall rephrase for you ;)

Now I understand except my fingers can't move faster than 12(i think, my e-mag trigger was EXTREAMLY sloppy soo idk)

[CKY_Alliance]

See, this attitude right here is THE problem as I see it in PB today. They will cheat against me, so I have to pre-emptively treat each person as though they had already cheated.

Somehow, I manage to play speedball and hold my own while still:

1) Never putting more than three balls on a person, EVER.
2) Never wiping a hit or intimidating a ref into changing their call.
3) Never intentionally bunkering someone who is of less skill than I.
4) Never intentionally shooting someone on exposed skin while bunkering them.

Somehow I manage to play speedball and not break any of those four edicts.

It IS possible, it just takes a little effort.

My biggest gripe currently is that no one has any honor or respect for anyone anymore.

They're rude, crude, and cheat, while simultaneously bragging about all of the above. Makes me want to strangle someone, and then kick their parents in the balls. Even worse is when said miscreant is my age or just a fuzz younger (IE of an age that they REALLY should know better by now).

Basically, at this point, I only play with people I know, at fields that I trust to be safe and not packed with douche-bags.

I just bought some land about six months ago, so after I get my house built, I am very likely going to invest in a sup-air field and some grass seed. :ninja:


Excuse me for not wanting to be elminated by the person I just eliminated..so sorry.. what the hell was I thinking?

[CoolHand]

Excuse me for not wanting to be elminated by the person I just eliminated..so sorry.. what the hell was I thinking?

Just keep repeating to yourself:

"It's only a game."

"It's only a game."

"It's only a . . . . . .

If the refs are paying attention, they'll see it was a late shot. If not, it's no big.

It's certainly not worth intentionally inflicting pain on every opponent you face, because they might or could cheat.

THAT is exactly what I'm talking about. The drive to want to win so badly that you forget that were just playing a game. It's not life or death, the entirety of your future does not hang on that elimination.

To win at any cost and by any means is the mantra of paintball now. Because, how can you rub it everyone's face if you DON'T win? You can't, so in order to be the rub-er, instead of the rub-ee, you MUST win.

I play the game to be outside with my buds, tinker on some cool technology, and generally have a good time. I could give a crap if I win or lose. I've had fun on days where I didn't mark a single player.

I play paintball because it's fun..so sorry.. what the hell was I thinking?

Normally, I'd just say let's agree to disagree and leave it at that, but the problem in this particular case is that your style of "do anything to win" PB is bleeding over into my "just want to have fun" world, and it's pissing me off. I was minding my own business, not forcing people to be good sports or even enjoy the game (GASP :eek: ), simply playing like I wish and hoping to be left alone.

Alas, no longer are our groups big enough to command a field all our own, so we must mingle with the masses. That's where your game starts to get all over me. It's like working around a hog enclosure. Try as you might, you can't be there and not get covered in crap.

It has occurred to me that I might just be bitter about our groups always being smaller, and the kids always being rude, crude, and obnoxious, but I think I have a legitimate gripe.

However, legitimate or not, there's nothing I can do, except perhaps buy my own field and tell tool boxes that I disagree with not to come back. Anymore, that's looking like the best option.

[MinimagRockin']

I find myself sitting here in a serious paintball funk.

Almost all of the old school paintball companies/personalities are out of buisiness or have left. Support for any product older than about a year or two is completly gone, even from (most) manufacturer websites. New markers are being made with serious quality issues, even high end.....Angel, Dye... The resale of markers is to the point that buying new is a completly stupid thing to do, especially when you consider that no true innovation has happened in years. Any good marker a few years old can't be given away.I won't even get into the hype surrounding new releases.

With the constant corporate merging and dealing being done innovation is a thing of the past. The legal landscape prevents the grassroots development that made the sport what it is. The whole thing is slowly moving towards being one large umbrella covered by one management company. We will all be shooting the same marker...an "Ion"...

The world of rec play has degraded to the point that trying to get a friendly honest game on is unheard of. This behaviour has dribbled into the world of woodsball as well. Cheating is rampant. Many owners/promoters have resigned themselves to a shoulder shrug of "thats the way it is" rather than actively trying to do something about it. Most players have as well.

Referees have become a complete laughing stock and complete embarrasment in almost every venue across the board. There is no integrity, no consistancy, complete lack of reason to respect the authority they are supposed to represent. Demonstrated by players at any venue, anywhere.

The whole game is stenching of "squeeze it for all its worth" and get out. Disposable markers made for a short term player. A bunch of new players introduced to a world of "slotmachine" games where your only limitation is how much money you can afford to spend in paint. Cause we all know you are only as good as the amount of paint you can waste, and how fast.



The only good game that is to be found is for those of us still lucky enough to have a good group of friends to play some renegade ball in a back yard. Following the code of honor that all should play with......

Good post. I haven't played paintball in years but I did see some pro action a couple months ago on espn and was pretty turned off by the style of play. Each player shot as much and as fast as they could. I used to say it back when I played and I am definately saying it now: limit the amount of paint one can bring into a game. That would make the game way more dynamic and fun to play/watch.

[punkncat]

Just keep repeating to yourself:

"It's only a game."

"It's only a game."

"It's only a . . . . . .

If the refs are paying attention, they'll see it was a late shot. If not, it's no big.

It's certainly not worth intentionally inflicting pain on every opponent you face, because they might or could cheat.

THAT is exactly what I'm talking about. The drive to want to win so badly that you forget that were just playing a game. It's not life or death, the entirety of your future does not hang on that elimination.

To win at any cost and by any means is the mantra of paintball now. Because, how can you rub it everyone's face if you DON'T win? You can't, so in order to be the rub-er, instead of the rub-ee, you MUST win.

I play the game to be outside with my buds, tinker on some cool technology, and generally have a good time. I could give a crap if I win or lose. I've had fun on days where I didn't mark a single player.

I play paintball because it's fun..so sorry.. what the hell was I thinking?

Normally, I'd just say let's agree to disagree and leave it at that, but the problem in this particular case is that your style of "do anything to win" PB is bleeding over into my "just want to have fun" world, and it's pissing me off. I was minding my own business, not forcing people to be good sports or even enjoy the game (GASP :eek: ), simply playing like I wish and hoping to be left alone.

Alas, no longer are our groups big enough to command a field all our own, so we must mingle with the masses. That's where your game starts to get all over me. It's like working around a hog enclosure. Try as you might, you can't be there and not get covered in crap.

It has occurred to me that I might just be bitter about our groups always being smaller, and the kids always being rude, crude, and obnoxious, but I think I have a legitimate gripe.

However, legitimate or not, there's nothing I can do, except perhaps buy my own field and tell tool boxes that I disagree with not to come back. Anymore, that's looking like the best option.


Great reply, good points.

It is disappointing as you see the group of good friends and honorable players drift away from the sport. Espcially due mostly to crap like what you replied about.

[CKY_Alliance]

Just keep repeating to yourself:

"It's only a game."

"It's only a game."

"It's only a . . . . . .

If the refs are paying attention, they'll see it was a late shot. If not, it's no big.

It's certainly not worth intentionally inflicting pain on every opponent you face, because they might or could cheat.

THAT is exactly what I'm talking about. The drive to want to win so badly that you forget that were just playing a game. It's not life or death, the entirety of your future does not hang on that elimination.

To win at any cost and by any means is the mantra of paintball now. Because, how can you rub it everyone's face if you DON'T win? You can't, so in order to be the rub-er, instead of the rub-ee, you MUST win.

I play the game to be outside with my buds, tinker on some cool technology, and generally have a good time. I could give a crap if I win or lose. I've had fun on days where I didn't mark a single player.

I play paintball because it's fun..so sorry.. what the hell was I thinking?

Normally, I'd just say let's agree to disagree and leave it at that, but the problem in this particular case is that your style of "do anything to win" PB is bleeding over into my "just want to have fun" world, and it's pissing me off. I was minding my own business, not forcing people to be good sports or even enjoy the game (GASP :eek: ), simply playing like I wish and hoping to be left alone.

Alas, no longer are our groups big enough to command a field all our own, so we must mingle with the masses. That's where your game starts to get all over me. It's like working around a hog enclosure. Try as you might, you can't be there and not get covered in crap.

It has occurred to me that I might just be bitter about our groups always being smaller, and the kids always being rude, crude, and obnoxious, but I think I have a legitimate gripe.

However, legitimate or not, there's nothing I can do, except perhaps buy my own field and tell tool boxes that I disagree with not to come back. Anymore, that's looking like the best option.

First let me clarify..i am speaking of tournamnet play..not everyday walk on.

Now then, when did i say do whatever it takes to win? I never said "shoot em till they cry,wipe every hit,and play even if you cant see out of your mask because of all the paint"..i dont ever recall me saying that... and go back and read a lot of my post in threads like these...the thing i preach the most is HAVE FUN because it is just a game, when i play i do have fun even if my opponent is cheating..ye it pisses me off, but i still do my best to have fun. If the game was no longer fun to me i would not play.


To many generalizations.


I don't see how most of AO has fun playing the sport..most of you are to busy scrutinizing every little aspect.

[CoolHand]

First let me clarify..i am speaking of tournamnet play..not everyday walk on.

Now then, when did i say do whatever it takes to win? I never said "shoot em till they cry,wipe every hit,and play even if you cant see out of your mask because of all the paint"..i dont ever recall me saying that... and go back and read a lot of my post in threads like these...the thing i preach the most is HAVE FUN because it is just a game, when i play i do have fun even if my opponent is cheating..ye it pisses me off, but i still do my best to have fun. If the game was no longer fun to me i would not play.


To many generalizations.


I don't see how most of AO has fun playing the sport..most of you are to busy scrutinizing every little aspect.

Well, that's a different story then, isn't it?

Let me compliment you on being able to "turn off" your tourney style when you play walk-on, because nearly every tourney player I've been around (with the exception of friends of mine who I brow beat if they whomp on the first timers) plays exactly the same way regardless of who is on the other end of the field.

That inability to turn off their killer attitude in walk-on play is a great deal of what makes me angry.

[Lohman446]

First let me clarify..i am speaking of tournamnet play..not everyday walk on.

Now then, when did i say do whatever it takes to win? I never said "shoot em till they cry,wipe every hit,and play even if you cant see out of your mask because of all the paint"..i dont ever recall me saying that... and go back and read a lot of my post in threads like these...the thing i preach the most is HAVE FUN because it is just a game, when i play i do have fun even if my opponent is cheating..ye it pisses me off, but i still do my best to have fun. If the game was no longer fun to me i would not play.


To many generalizations.


I don't see how most of AO has fun playing the sport..most of you are to busy scrutinizing every little aspect.

Why is it different at tournament? Sorry folks, this is still only a game, regardless if you are playing with a group of friends in your back yard or at some great PSP event. Its still only a game.

"Its ok, I do it with the tournament crowd". Call me hypocritical cause I did it too, but it doesn't make it right.

[rabidchihauhau]

OH BOY.

By definition, the purpose of playing in a tournament is to WIN. Not to have fun. Not to gather new 'that guy cheated' stories, not to blow a ton of cash on a poorly officiated, poorly managed get-together, the purpose is to WIN.

If the job requires punishing an opponent who is staying in, then you do it. If the referees are working for the other team, you suck it up and do what you need to do to counter it.

This is not 'blind' reaction. With even a modicum of experience you can tell good refs from bad, whether someone is getting 'love' or not, what teams push the limit and which players cheat as a matter of routine. If some yutz is running down the field with hits all over him and destroying your players because the refs can't or won't stop him, you get in his face and force him to physical contact: if he keeps shooting, you keep shooting, wherever its gonna have the most impact.

When I walk onto the tournament field, I KNOW that I'm going to get hit more than once when eliminated. I know chances are I'll take some bonus balls walking off the field. I know the refs are going to make some bad calls and that the other team is stupid if they don't use that to their advantage. I know that some of my opponents will not walk off the field immediately upon getting hit. I know some of them are going to wipe and some are going to try the great 'I'm not hit till I get to the back end of the field' ploy.

I and many other people paid good money to participate. I and many other people at the event are there to win and know (or rightly assume) that their opponents are going to try and win also - some of them honorably, but probably the majority will be 'at all costs'.

One team will not change this - all that they will accomplish will be to throw their money away. One single player can't change this, all he will be doing is not playing by the rules on the ground and costing his team. So long as the rules on the ground - both those that are printed (and usually ignored) and those that are assumed - are in place, anyone who doesn't play by them is being UNREALISTIC.

You only have two choices these days: Play in tournaments or stay away from them. If you choose to play in them, you can choose to play to win or you can choose to waste your money. Any discussion beyond that is academic and virtually pointless.

Do I like it? No. Should it change? Yes. Have I done everything I personally can to get it to change? Yes, in spades and at great personal and financial cost.

You can dislike this aspect of the game as much as you want to - you can even condemn those who continue to participate, but you can't advocate not accepting reality and dealing with it, and the reality is that most tournaments today are 'do whatever you have to in order to win'. Once you are there, the room for a discussion of morals and fair play is over, because sure as doo-doo there will be at least one other team who IS playing that way and you are going to lose if you don't act to counter it - on the field, not sitting behind a desk and waxing eloquent about how nice everyone should be to each other!

and btw - I could NOT turn off tournament-head and therefore refrained from playing in anything other than events or practices/skrimages.

[CoolHand]

OH BOY.

By definition, the purpose of playing in a tournament is to WIN. Not to have fun. Not to gather new 'that guy cheated' stories, not to blow a ton of cash on a poorly officiated, poorly managed get-together, the purpose is to WIN.

If the job requires punishing an opponent who is staying in, then you do it. If the referees are working for the other team, you suck it up and do what you need to do to counter it.

This is not 'blind' reaction. With even a modicum of experience you can tell good refs from bad, whether someone is getting 'love' or not, what teams push the limit and which players cheat as a matter of routine. If some yutz is running down the field with hits all over him and destroying your players because the refs can't or won't stop him, you get in his face and force him to physical contact: if he keeps shooting, you keep shooting, wherever its gonna have the most impact.

When I walk onto the tournament field, I KNOW that I'm going to get hit more than once when eliminated. I know chances are I'll take some bonus balls walking off the field. I know the refs are going to make some bad calls and that the other team is stupid if they don't use that to their advantage. I know that some of my opponents will not walk off the field immediately upon getting hit. I know some of them are going to wipe and some are going to try the great 'I'm not hit till I get to the back end of the field' ploy.

I and many other people paid good money to participate. I and many other people at the event are there to win and know (or rightly assume) that their opponents are going to try and win also - some of them honorably, but probably the majority will be 'at all costs'.

One team will not change this - all that they will accomplish will be to throw their money away. One single player can't change this, all he will be doing is not playing by the rules on the ground and costing his team. So long as the rules on the ground - both those that are printed (and usually ignored) and those that are assumed - are in place, anyone who doesn't play by them is being UNREALISTIC.

You only have two choices these days: Play in tournaments or stay away from them. If you choose to play in them, you can choose to play to win or you can choose to waste your money. Any discussion beyond that is academic and virtually pointless.

Do I like it? No. Should it change? Yes. Have I done everything I personally can to get it to change? Yes, in spades and at great personal and financial cost.

You can dislike this aspect of the game as much as you want to - you can even condemn those who continue to participate, but you can't advocate not accepting reality and dealing with it, and the reality is that most tournaments today are 'do whatever you have to in order to win'. Once you are there, the room for a discussion of morals and fair play is over, because sure as doo-doo there will be at least one other team who IS playing that way and you are going to lose if you don't act to counter it - on the field, not sitting behind a desk and waxing eloquent about how nice everyone should be to each other!

and btw - I could NOT turn off tournament-head and therefore refrained from playing in anything other than events or practices/skrimages.

I think you hit it on the head here, which is why I make the distinction between walk-on rec ball and tournament play. With the tourney ball, you know going in what you're getting into, so you don't have a lot of room to complain when your suspicions are confirmed.

I would also like to commend you for steering clear of the rec-ball scene since you cannot turn off the tourney blood lust. There are a great many players who cannot accomplish that either, but choose to still wail away on the first timers and rub how badly they "suck" in their faces.

I'm the exact opposite of you, playing wise, in that I have played tournaments, and I cannot get into a mindset that will allow me to to whatever it takes to win, so my money is wasted, even though I'm not THAT bad of a player.

For this reason, I will go watch a tournament, and I even used to sponsor a pretty large local team, but I won't play in them anymore. I just won't play like that. But that's OK, I'm not an aspiring pro or anything. ;)

[rabidchihauhau]

Thanks for recognizing the situation for what it is. Too many people think the opposite, that somehow, because they just walked onto the tournament field, everyone has to play by some set of unspoken rules that they have in their own heads.

Its nice to dream - but that's all that it is.

I coach in order to satisfy my 'bloodlust'; I'll tell ya, screaming at a bunch of wannabes is even better than shooting an opponent! (I live by the simple philosophy that they will NEVER be good enough and they deserve to hear that fact screamed at them in as demeaning and belittling a manner as possible, lol...think the DI in Full Metal Jacket and you'll have some small idea...)

Too many times, players new to tournament ball fail to read the rules and interpret them correctly. By that I mean, they read 'you're out when the ref says you're out' - which in their heads means - if you get hit, call the ref, while it actually means, hide the hit, keep playing and mark as many opponents as you can before the ref gets to you.

and then they get upset when the other guy's rule interpretation beats them, and THEN they moan and complain instead of adjusting their style of play (or playing somewhere else).

if the rules in Monopoly say 'the banker can steal money and hide it under the board', you're just being stupid if you don't ask to be banker, more stupid if you don't check under the board after every turn, and really stupid if you get upset with the banker but continue to play...

Tournaments ARE SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT FAIR PLAY - even if many of them aren't these days,. and a sporting compeition of any kind is supposed to be about winning. We don't give gold medals to the guy that came in last. If he wanted to come in last and not worry about it, he'd be running for himself, not entering the Olympics; he's there to win.

The difference between tournament ball and rec play is (should be), tournaments are all about winning - period. If you have fun along the way, its a bonus. Rec play is (supposed to be) about having fun and if you win some, its a bonus.

Trying to mix the two and make them the same is futile and ultimately frustrating.

[REDRT]

I cannot get into a mindset that will allow me to to whatever it takes to win, so my money is wasted, even though I'm not THAT bad of a player.



If you don't compromise yourself and uphold your intregrity of doing the right thing by playing fairly then I don't see it being a waste. Even if you don't win the game you still should have had a good time and way better off than the cheater(s). This mentallity you have to cheat to win is just wrong thinking. The only thing a cheat does is limit their growth in being a better person/player. Hard work, dedication, practice, the neccessary reliable equipment and the honest people that support you are all going to be things that is going to allow you to triumph ultimately over the people that cheat. Nobody ever said it was going to be easy, but when you earn it you know it. :)

[Aggravated Assault]

When I walk onto the tournament field, I KNOW that I'm going to get hit more than once when eliminated. I know chances are I'll take some bonus balls walking off the field. I know the refs are going to make some bad calls and that the other team is stupid if they don't use that to their advantage. I know that some of my opponents will not walk off the field immediately upon getting hit. I know some of them are going to wipe and some are going to try the great 'I'm not hit till I get to the back end of the field' ploy.



This pisses me off - because every word is true. :(

The thing is, we're not playing on big woodsball fields anymore. If an event is staffed properly, theres no reason for refs not able to do a decent and fair job. Assuming refs are competent. It should be EASIER to control the game not harder! Ya ya, I know that theres a lot more paintballs flying around, but seriously, why cant it be done? This is what frosts me the most. We have the technology, the tools, and super small fields and we STILL cant control a tournament paintball game. Its a shame

[Lohman446]

Thanks for recognizing the situation for what it is. Too many people think the opposite, that somehow, because they just walked onto the tournament field, everyone has to play by some set of unspoken rules that they have in their own heads.

Its nice to dream - but that's all that it is.

I coach in order to satisfy my 'bloodlust'; I'll tell ya, screaming at a bunch of wannabes is even better than shooting an opponent! (I live by the simple philosophy that they will NEVER be good enough and they deserve to hear that fact screamed at them in as demeaning and belittling a manner as possible, lol...think the DI in Full Metal Jacket and you'll have some small idea...)

Too many times, players new to tournament ball fail to read the rules and interpret them correctly. By that I mean, they read 'you're out when the ref says you're out' - which in their heads means - if you get hit, call the ref, while it actually means, hide the hit, keep playing and mark as many opponents as you can before the ref gets to you.

and then they get upset when the other guy's rule interpretation beats them, and THEN they moan and complain instead of adjusting their style of play (or playing somewhere else).

if the rules in Monopoly say 'the banker can steal money and hide it under the board', you're just being stupid if you don't ask to be banker, more stupid if you don't check under the board after every turn, and really stupid if you get upset with the banker but continue to play...

Tournaments ARE SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT FAIR PLAY - even if many of them aren't these days,. and a sporting compeition of any kind is supposed to be about winning. We don't give gold medals to the guy that came in last. If he wanted to come in last and not worry about it, he'd be running for himself, not entering the Olympics; he's there to win.

The difference between tournament ball and rec play is (should be), tournaments are all about winning - period. If you have fun along the way, its a bonus. Rec play is (supposed to be) about having fun and if you win some, its a bonus.

Trying to mix the two and make them the same is futile and ultimately frustrating.

So if I go to a $25 team entry, no prize tournament I should be playing to win not to have fun?

[RogueFactor]

By definition, the purpose of playing in a tournament is to WIN. Not to have fun. Not to gather new 'that guy cheated' stories, not to blow a ton of cash on a poorly officiated, poorly managed get-together, the purpose is to WIN.


he's there to win.

The difference between tournament ball and rec play is (should be), tournaments are all about winning - period. If you have fun along the way, its a bonus. Rec play is (supposed to be) about having fun and if you win some, its a bonus.

Trying to mix the two and make them the same is futile and ultimately frustrating.

Sport is supposed to be fun---not a bonus. Winning is the bonus. Whether it be tournament play, or rec play. For some, just competing is fun. For others winning is fun---for a multitude of reasons. Some like the money. Others like the fame. Others like the ego boost from bragging rights. Some like it for all those reasons. Not everyone has to be lumped into the "win at any cost" mantra. Some have fun because they know they have improved their skills since their last tournament.

The purpose of sport is to be better than you were. Some dont play to win, because they know they arent the best and never will be. They continue to play because they want to be the best they can be, to be better than they were. Those that do win, try next year to be better than they were this year. They dont stop playing or practicing because they won. And if they dont try to be better, they eventually lose to the team that does.

"Citius, Altius, Fortius" . Faster, Higher, Stronger. This is the Olympic motto, and is the basis for sport. Not to be faster, higher, stronger than your opponent. Just faster, higher, stronger. The implication that sport is for the purpose of pushing the human limits.

Win at any cost is what destroys sport. Its the reason why every sport fights(maybe other than paintball) to keep the playing field even. Paintball takes the opposite approach and adopts the motto of "win at any cost". In paintball, tournament rules are changed to cater to manufacturers who are trying to 'win at any cost' by using the tournament series to beat their competitors. So its no secret as to why that tone, from the top-down, has spread through the tournament scene. Business is business, and is about survivial---survive at any cost. Sport is not. Its too bad that one has leaked over into the other. Ultimately, its malevolent for both.

[CoolHand]

If you don't compromise yourself and uphold your intregrity of doing the right thing by playing fairly then I don't see it being a waste. Even if you don't win the game you still should have had a good time and way better off than the cheater(s). This mentallity you have to cheat to win is just wrong thinking. The only thing a cheat does is limit their growth in being a better person/player. Hard work, dedication, practice, the neccessary reliable equipment and the honest people that support you are all going to be things that is going to allow you to triumph ultimately over the people that cheat. Nobody ever said it was going to be easy, but when you earn it you know it. :)

Yeah, I agree in principle that to win without cheating over those that do makes the victory all the more sweet.

However, in practice, what happens is I'm not that good. I'm not good enough to play clean and still out play someone who isn't.

In which case, the people who win come by to tell me how much I suck, at which time I feel compelled to strangle them to death. You could say I have some rage issues . . . . .

I don't want to kill someone over a game of paintball, so I refrain from getting into the situation in the first place.

[AGD]

You guys should all understand someting. In my opinion, Steve (Rabid) is the father of modern tournament ball. He was the one that started time outs, reffing from the sidelines, cheering spectators, outside refs and real rules! He actuall DID some research when everyone else was saying "we don't need more rules" and found out all serious sports have a rule book a mile thick. He realized that the refs can't sort things out on the fly so the time outs allowed for things to be fixed. Today you have multiple short games that accomiplish the same thing.

In order to personally try and send the sport in a better direction he fanagled all of his retirement money out of a locked account and put on his vision of a tournament. Most people ignored him but everyone that actually attended the tournament thought it was pretty darn cool!

He even had a promo for a million dollar paintball shooting contest! That has never been duplicated.

Love him or hate him, Steve plans, executes and puts his money where his mouth is. A lot of people hate him for it but I think had we followed his lead we would be in a better place today.

AGD

[Skeeter]

This board always amazes me. Too much knowledge and integrity here, for our own good.

Tournaments, for many years, were respectable events, where sportsmanship was still meaningful. There was a discernable change in about ’98 & ’99 (as I sit here in my ’99 World Cup t-shirt), which incidentally, was about the time the shoe box Shockers & Angels hit the market. Correlation???

The “win at all costs” attitude started taking over as sponsorships became more important. Sponsorships became more important as paint budgets increased (due to hardware) and local tournament series went regional and regional series went national, with corresponding increases in travel expenses. As the sport became more expensive to the players, the emphasis moved from fun AND winning to JUST winning. The only way to secure a big dollar sponsor was to bring home major trophies. The only way to bring home big trophies was to play the grey (and beyond). We can’t just blame the hardware for the change in the sport (back to the origin of the thread), but we have to look at a combination of factors. The end result is a tournament world that has matured in a way many of us are not happy with.

[RogueFactor]

You guys should all understand someting. In my opinion, Steve (Rabid) is the father of modern tournament ball. He was the one that started time outs, reffing from the sidelines, cheering spectators, outside refs and real rules! He actuall DID some research when everyone else was saying "we don't need more rules" and found out all serious sports have a rule book a mile thick. He realized that the refs can't sort things out on the fly so the time outs allowed for things to be fixed. Today you have multiple short games that accomiplish the same thing.

So youre saying if we have an issue with modern tournament ball, its all Steve's fault? :confused:

I digress...of course he was the one who started all that, its in his best interest to do so. Being that Steve Davidson is the patent holder of this format, thats of little surprise:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=2&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=davidson&s2=paintball&OS=davidson+AND+paintball&RS=davidson+AND+paintball



Love him or hate him, Steve plans, executes and puts his money where his mouth is. A lot of people hate him for it but I think had we followed his lead we would be in a better place today.

AGD

I dont follow. If he is the father of modern paintball, the "win at all cost" attitiude, and we followed him...wouldnt we be right where we are?

[zorrotmm]

I digress...of course he was the one who started all that, its in his best interest to do so. Being that Steve Davidson is the patent holder of this format, thats of little surprise:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...n+AND+paintball

Holy crap. The game format can be pattented? Surely it's not enforceable?

[AGD]

Steve is the father of tourney ball the way Einstein is the father of the atom bomb.


AGD

[rabidchihauhau]

OMG. What was it Teller said? "I am become death, destroyer of worlds..."

Umm, thanks Tom...I think...


I patented the format to protect it from people who would corrupt it. And yes, so that I stood a fair chance of recovering some of the 3/4 of a million dollars spent on it...

I created the format because I didn't want it to matter whether you were a cheater or not - on the field, with enforceable and sensible rules, the best team would win - fairly.

I fought hard to get certain things established - like the idea that if the sport was worth ANYTHING on the open market, we had to STOP buying air time and devaluing ourselves in front of the networks, or the idea that referees can be trained by an outside organization and not be a part of the sport.

I had to shove it down everyone's throats because THEY felt threatened by me and what I was working on. Ask yourselves 'why' any team would be threatened by a fair format...

Tom/AGD and a few others stepped up to support the vision. Most of those early suppporters (not Tom) have participated in one fashion or another in stealing it and corrupting it, and turning it right back into the very thing it was designed to correct.

I did all of that because I was sick to death of having good, winning teams punished by a fixed system of entrenched cheating and collusion.

I am NOT advocating 'win at any cost'. I am saying that right now, that's the environment you are stepping into when you play in tournaments and to expect success to result from doing anything else is a wasted effort.

[rabidchihauhau]

So if I go to a $25 team entry, no prize tournament I should be playing to win not to have fun?


Its not just $25...

Travel; gasoline and wear and tear on the car
Maybe a hotel stay
Air
paint
equipment wear and tear/replacements (even if its only pods)

That sounds like a scrimmage, not a tournament, but even if it is a tournament - if you are not there to win, why are you "competing"?

Competition - "rivalry between two or more persons or groups for an object desired in common, usually resulting in a victor and a loser but not necessarily involving the destruction of the latter."

Sport - "an athletic activity requiring skill or physical prowess and often of a competitive nature, as racing, baseball, tennis, golf, bowling, wrestling, boxing, hunting, fishing, etc."

Win - "1. to finish first in a race, contest, or the like.
2. to succeed by striving or effort: He applied for a scholarship and won.
3. to gain the victory; overcome an adversary"

Fun - "1. something that provides mirth or amusement
2. enjoyment or playfulness"

Notice that neither the definitions for competition and sport have the word 'fun' in them, and the defintion for 'fun' says nothing about competition...

I guess what I'm trying to say is - if you are competing without the intention of being victorious, what's the point? You can compete (putting winning FIRST) without having to resort to cheating, so, again, what's the point?

[__Phoenix__]

If you think its hard to aim while shooting 15 bps ramping, try to aim while shooting 15 bps in semi. Then try it using a mechanical marker. ;)

Youll find it takes a lot more skill to do.

I've been chronied and/or goldwaved several times at 15-16 bps using a mech marker. Not terribly difficult, but ramping is a bit easier.

However, I don't ramp other then intimidation factor in the staging area. Which personally boggles me as to why kids are intimidated by a player with a ramping marker... not like the ramping marker means I'm better then those that actually play with a ramping marker or that pulling 5 bps and getting 15 equates to skill :confused:

[zorrotmm]

I patented the format to protect it from people who would corrupt it. And yes, so that I stood a fair chance of recovering some of the 3/4 of a million dollars spent on it...

That's very interesting. I just didn't know it was possible. But I guess that goes back to my enforcability comment. Obviously it has been stolen/modified/corrupted from what you pattented, so were you ever able to follow up on the pattent? I wonder if it's worth pattenting, and how you would actually enforce it. I don't think it's a bad idea, but how would we make it work?

[hitech]

To win at any cost and by any means is the mantra of paintball now. Because, how can you rub it everyone's face if you DON'T win? You can't, so in order to be the rub-er, instead of the rub-ee, you MUST win.


Any more, when I play woods ball I couldn't even tell you how won unless I'm near one of the flag stations near the end of the game. And it goes without saying that I don't really care.

Even so, I still get overly intense sometimes. I generally feel guilty when it happens.

:cheers:

P.S. Tounraments have always been win at all costs as far back as I can remember. My first tournament was a real eye opener, back in 1980 something. I do remember Navarone playing "fairly" clean against me. But, most of you have probably never heard of them. Wonder why...

[__Phoenix__]

...
Sport - "an athletic activity requiring skill or physical prowess and often of a competitive nature, as racing, baseball, tennis, golf, bowling, wrestling, boxing, hunting, fishing, etc."

Win - "1. to finish first in a race, contest, or the like.
2. to succeed by striving or effort: He applied for a scholarship and won.
3. to gain the victory; overcome an adversary"

Fun - "1. something that provides mirth or amusement
2. enjoyment or playfulness"

Notice that neither the definitions for competition and sport have the word 'fun' in them...

well, niether does the definition of "fun" have the word "fun" in it :spit_take
LOL, couldn't resist. :rofl:

My position on the matter, as a recballer for "fun"... paintball is fine. I do great every weekend I go out. As long as I can get good paint for $40 a case and oring manufactures make the sizes I need, I'll be happy and can live without "pro" paintballing.

[SCpoloRicker]

I've been chronied and/or goldwaved several times at 15-16 bps using a mech marker. Not terribly difficult, but ramping is a bit easier.

O RLY?

/is it that time again?

[BourneKiller]

"Citius, Altius, Fortius" . Faster, Higher, Stronger. This is the Olympic motto, and is the basis for sport. Not to be faster, higher, stronger than your opponent. Just faster, higher, stronger. The implication that sport is for the purpose of pushing the human limits.

I'm not sure I agree with how you said that.

The implication that sport is for the purpose of pushing the human limits is generally flawed if said human is competing against themselves. Only when you compete against others do you know what's possible, and that's generally when you get the most out of yourself. Faster, Higher, Stronger... than I was before? Sure, I could always get better, but when competing against a professional or highly talented opponent, I see how far behind I am, see where the bar is, and step it up faster, higher, and stronger than I could have dreamed was possible.

I think a sporting arena where the intent was to be only better than yourself previously would be self-gratifying, but would result in significantly less achievements.

That is the Olympic motto, but Olympians were competing against each other, so it follows to say "Faster, Higher, Stronger than your opponent."

Otherwise, everyone would simply be tested against their personal bests, and would be crowned a winner if they improved.



______________________________

Hustle Paintball - They have the Hustle Hotties, too! (www.hustlepaintball.com)

[rabidchihauhau]

That's very interesting. I just didn't know it was possible. But I guess that goes back to my enforcability comment. Obviously it has been stolen/modified/corrupted from what you pattented, so were you ever able to follow up on the pattent? I wonder if it's worth pattenting, and how you would actually enforce it. I don't think it's a bad idea, but how would we make it work?

Some patent experts say that you can't patent a game format. My patent expert (who is an academic intellectual property guy who writes papers on patents that all the other experts use) has said that it is possible and that there is absolutely no doubt that the folks who are using my format are infringing on my patent.

I do not have the dollars for a long, drawn out legal battle; we used whatever means we did have in order to try and get the other folks to - license, purchase, cease and desist, etc.

What I have patented, in the broadest sense, is the concept of multiple scores within a paintball game. I have also patented the concept of stopping play to assess penalties, the concept of time-based penalties and the concept of re-positioning based penalties (losing ground to serve a penalty).

The rule book itself (copyrighted) is also telling; it was the first paintball rule book to be written for the game officials, not the players. (The player rules summary is 2 pages, the rule book itself is 3 volumes.) Interestingly enough, several league's rule books have now begun to be written this 'new' way.

Our original concept was to make the format available as a license with a protected geographic territory for the licensee; the licensee was also granted the right to sub-license the format within their territory; sub-licensing fees were reasonable and it was entirely possible that a licensee could have their annual fees covered by one or two sub-licensors - therefore, they got to use it at no cost.

Licensees were obligated to extend certain fixed costs to member teams when those teams used the facilities; those costs allowed for profit, but kept a team's expense under control.

Licensees were also obligated to carry a certain amount of national advertising brought to them by the parent organization, and had to share a percentage of any local advertising they sold (10%); this created a revenue stream for fields that had not previously existed, as some of the advertising revenue to the national organization was used to underwrite events, referees and etc.

The idea was, in general, to put national competition play on a budget, where team costs were controlled, in an environment where that would not negatively affect their performance, and to create entirely new revenue streams to cover the expenses to everyone; we would then have gone further by licensing gear (official mask of, official pod of, etc) - both as a way to control technology and as additional revenue - plus the league's endorsement of those products as an added benefit to the manufacturer. Essentially - pool the expenses so they are as low as possible and use outside dollars to pay for it all.

See, I view tournament ball as the potential marquee attraction of paintball - a way for the industry to put something enticing and exciting out there to excite new customers - and that kind of advertising/marketing should not be a financial burden - it should actually pay for itself. Our concept provided one well-researched method for accomplishing those goals.

(I was also attempting to 'fix' many promotional/advertising/endorsement issues that other professional sports have with a 'shared-revenue' policy. If you were signed to a team and gained an endorsement contract, a percentage of those fees went to your team, not just you, and the team shared a percentage of their revenue (profits, actually) with the league, so that no 'franchise' would be able to out-spend another and no player would be able to rise to a level of not needing their team any more. Some folks complain about this as being 'unfair': well, the Dallas Cowboys got into a legal battle with the NFL over just this kind of thing, and basketball is a perfect example of why you don't want to have only a single 'name' player to ride on. The way I viewed it was that the 'league' was the primary entity, from which flowed the teams and from them the players, so asking teams that were doing well to contribute and players who were doing well to contribute was only reasonable, since no one would know who they were if it hadn't been for the league and the team. If one franchise is having trouble, it affects the whole league - why not use success elsewhere to even the playing field?)

We also did things like lock in team names with trademarks, curtailed a lot of player movement, put in place a policy that prevented players from just willy-nilly leaving a team, a structured advancement for farm teams, etc., etc.

I think that's enough for now.

How to get it started? Anyone got a couple of million dollars to blow on a tournament series?

[__Phoenix__]

O RLY?

/is it that time again?

YA RLY

/checks watch
//yup

[rabidchihauhau]

well, niether does the definition of "fun" have the word "fun" in it :spit_take
LOL, couldn't resist. :rofl:

My position on the matter, as a recballer for "fun"... paintball is fine. I do great every weekend I go out. As long as I can get good paint for $40 a case and oring manufactures make the sizes I need, I'll be happy and can live without "pro" paintballing.

The real problem seems to be the 'attitude' that one type of player has towards another.

Playing to win (tournaments), playing for fun (rec), playing for a mix of fun and competition (scenario) are all equally valid, provided that you know what you are playting for in advance (as in NOT playing like you're in a tournament when you step on the rec ball field).

Tournament ballers look down on every other type of baller and vice versa. The fact is, if you are getting what you want out of it, be it testing yourself against others, having fun or playing an interesting character, there's nothing to be looked down on. I might think it silly or pointless to play the way someone else does, but thats a personal opinion, not reality. Reality is if you are getting what you want out of the experience, its a valid one.

True, tournament players as a breed are arrogant and, if their mental tranining is good, they 'should' be looking down on everyone else - all other paintballers including other tournament ballers - maybe even their teammates - because you have to win mentally as well as physically and psychologically to BE a winner. Unfortunately, this attitude is carried outside of the bubble that its supposed to exist in.

[zorrotmm]

How to get it started? Anyone got a couple of million dollars to blow on a tournament series?

Excellent post. There's a lot of good information and ideas there. But you're right, it takes money, and you generally can't find the funding and a concern for the sport in the same person or organiztion. I hope one day we can change that. We'll have to see.

[RogueFactor]

I patented the format to protect it from people who would corrupt it. And yes, so that I stood a fair chance of recovering some of the 3/4 of a million dollars spent on it...

Nothing wrong with that. Its business. Incidentally, what cost $750,000?


I fought hard to get certain things established - like the idea that if the sport was worth ANYTHING on the open market, we had to STOP buying air time and devaluing ourselves in front of the networks, or the idea that referees can be trained by an outside organization and not be a part of the sport.

100%. That's all televised paintball has seemed to be --- proof that the sport isnt worth watching.


He even had a promo for a million dollar paintball shooting contest! That has never been duplicated.

Steve, explain what this was. Sounds interesting.

[rabidchihauhau]

Nothing wrong with that. Its business. Incidentally, what cost $750,000?


100%. That's all televised paintball has seemed to be --- proof that the sport isnt worth watching.



Steve, explain what this was. Sounds interesting.
promotion. legal fees. event fees. staff. referees. equipment. rentals. advertising. greasing palms. salaries.

as long as tv is not done right...

we found a company willing to insure us against a million dollar loss for a fee. we paid the fee, allowing us to post a million dollar cash prize. We had a target shooting contest - anyone was qualified to enter. the winner went on for a chance for the million bucks. he had three targets to shoot, each was divided into a number of numbered areas - ten, 8 and 6 if I remember - he shot his picks and then we opened the envelope - only to find out that the insurance company had screwed up and had the wrong percentage numbers down (their numbers would have allowed targets of ten, 7 and 5 numbers - or something like that); the whole thing was legit, but the insurance company screwed up; ultimately, part of the 750k went towards paying that bill and something for the player. he got a bunch of product prizes also, but man were we hoping he'd win the million!

I probably ought to do that one again...

This time as some kind of national qualifier and then the big money pay off...hmmm

our alternative was to have a million cash on the line for any team that had a perfect tournament - no losses, winning scores - but those odds were way too long.

[RogueFactor]

I had to shove it down everyone's throats because THEY felt threatened by me and what I was working on. Ask yourselves 'why' any team would be threatened by a fair format...

Most of those early suppporters (not Tom) have participated in one fashion or another in stealing it and corrupting it, and turning it right back into the very thing it was designed to correct.

Steve:

Wanted to ask a few more questions, all the history is interesting...

Why did those who participated feel threatened?
What made them want to steal it rather than pay the fee?
How does what we see today differ from the original that would have corrupted it?

[p8ntball72]

Steve Davidson began playing paintball in 1983. He captained the Muthers of Destruction paintball team based out of Skirmish USA from 1984 through 1988; the team took first place in their first tournament appearance. The Muthers won numerous first place finishes at regional championships and finished 4th overall in the first PMI/RPScherer North American Championship.

He helped found the Werewolves Competition Paintball Team in 1989 which became one of the top 15 player teams in the country form 1989 till 1991.

In 1990 he founded the NPSRS (National Paintball Statistics and Ranking Society) which later changed its name to the World Paintball Federation, and which was responsible for establishing the standards for tournament team scheduling, team seeding and ranking still in use today.

In 1992 he founded the NPPL, serving as that organization's coordinator for its first two seasons and was elected Secretary in 1996.

In 1996 he resigned from the NPPL to operate the GTO tournament series, the first nationally held ten player series for amateur teams only, and the first series to offer guaranteed prize packages.

In 1999 he received a patent for a game format which formed the basis for the X-Ball format . He briefly founded a new league - the United States Paintball League - to introduce the new format and held the country's third largest tournament in 2000 - PaintFest, and is among the first people to obtain televised airings of paintball competitions.

From 1997 through 2004, Steve consulted at Pro-Team Products, heading up their intellectual property division and managing their factory showroom.

In November of 2004, he left Pro-Team to establish Vengeance Paintball Distributors.


With all this "History" of Starting five some odd "leagues" then going so far as patenting your own Format.

Seems that someone has stolen your PIE!!

[rabidchihauhau]

Paintball72 - there's no 'pie' to steal; all I wanted was a piece...

Roguefactor - oy...

why did people feel threatened?

let's see. in 1992 I took away the paint manufacturer's ability to host national events that were Tournament Paint Only when we introed NPPL. The teams wanted it and all the smaller mfgs who couldn't afford to host their own national events were at least a little positively inclined, but it left others with money po-ed. They had pretty much had a guaranteed bully pulpit for their chosen teams/product up till then.

The NPPL made others feel threatened because I was on a 'mission from god' to bring fairness to the game and some people wanted the ability to promote themselves, their teams and their products without having to bother with 'winning'. Up till that point, events were pretty much a foregone conclusion as to who was going to win. It started with 'promoters' not even posting the scores, making it eminently easy to 'fix' the outcome. Later, as things tightened up, the fixing became much more subtle - selecting the fields/stations teams started from, putting a particular reffing crew on a field, manipulating the prelim schedule, assessing or not assessing major penalties outside of the rulebook, etc.

I insisted on higher standards at every event I did. Instead of one or two basic portajohns, I brought in ten or 12, set some aside for women, and rented the wedding ones, with sinks and larger areas. Instead of 'a field out in the middle of nowhere', we went to fairgrounds that were less expensive and had better facilities. Instead of the minimum number of refs per field, I added two to four more bodies. I gave the teams their entire schedule of games up front, before the event. Instead of working with hotels to UP the room rate so I could pocket a few extra dollars, I booked blocks of rooms and passed the savings on to the teams. To keep teams from using hotel linen and toilet paper to clean their gear, we purchased thousands of shop rags and gave them to the hotels to hand out. Instead of paper certificates that 'might' be redeemable for product, we had all the prizes physically on hand.

In other words, when I put on an event, all the other promoters knew they were going to have to take more dollars out of their pockets for their next event if they wanted to keep up with the joneses.

Why steal instead of working with me? Probably two 'good' reasons. One - its cheaper since you won't have to cut Davidson in for a piece and Two - I was being messianic and not accepting anything less than perfection, whereas most everyone else just wanted to do enough to get the teams to attend. They probably didn't want to have to deal with that 'unreasonablness.

All I know is that if you strive for perfection, you won't get there, but you might come close. If you work towards less than perfection, that's what you'll get.

What's corrupt? The game doesn't work. If you think about the format as it is today, if a team didn't 'want' to look aggressive, all they have to learn is a really good defensive strategy, sit on their butts and shoot out the other team that is making foolish, risky advances down the field. The rules emphasize defense. How boring.

It wastes way too much paint. It can't be effectively taped. It passes nothing on to an audience that isn't already familiar with the game. Its uncontrollable on the part of the referees, which essentially means that its not a sport, its a potential cheat-fest.

The ability to stop the game to assess penalties is critical. It makes it a sport. It gives the audience and the commentators a chance to catch-up.

Simplification is a MUST for anything to succeed as a spectator sport. We color-coded and numbered our bunkers AND they were all the exact same type of bunker, set up in the same way. The PaintFest field has been called one of the greatest tournament layouts ever made by many top players. The color-coding and numbering is a simple idea, but works wonders for understanding and following the game. The same bunker everywhere means less confusion AND, since they were all laydowns, makes it much easier for the camera.

Play is faster and uses LESS paint. Play is more understandable. Eliminations, by virtue of the bunker layout and the rules are much cleaner. (We played over 60 games with the format at PaintFest and there WAS NOT ONE SINGLE TURN AND TAKE ONE WITH YOU when players bunkered each other.

The list goes on and on...

[rabidchihauhau]

Paintball72 - there's no 'pie' to steal; all I wanted was a piece...

Roguefactor - oy...

why did people feel threatened?

let's see. in 1992 I took away the paint manufacturer's ability to host national events that were Tournament Paint Only when we introed NPPL. The teams wanted it and all the smaller mfgs who couldn't afford to host their own national events were at least a little positively inclined, but it left others with money po-ed. They had pretty much had a guaranteed bully pulpit for their chosen teams/product up till then.

The NPPL made others feel threatened because I was on a 'mission from god' to bring fairness to the game and some people wanted the ability to promote themselves, their teams and their products without having to bother with 'winning'. Up till that point, events were pretty much a foregone conclusion as to who was going to win. It started with 'promoters' not even posting the scores, making it eminently easy to 'fix' the outcome. Later, as things tightened up, the fixing became much more subtle - selecting the fields/stations teams started from, putting a particular reffing crew on a field, manipulating the prelim schedule, assessing or not assessing major penalties outside of the rulebook, etc.

I insisted on higher standards at every event I did. Instead of one or two basic portajohns, I brought in ten or 12, set some aside for women, and rented the wedding ones, with sinks and larger areas. Instead of 'a field out in the middle of nowhere', we went to fairgrounds that were less expensive and had better facilities. Instead of the minimum number of refs per field, I added two to four more bodies. I gave the teams their entire schedule of games up front, before the event. Instead of working with hotels to UP the room rate so I could pocket a few extra dollars, I booked blocks of rooms and passed the savings on to the teams. To keep teams from using hotel linen and toilet paper to clean their gear, we purchased thousands of shop rags and gave them to the hotels to hand out. Instead of paper certificates that 'might' be redeemable for product, we had all the prizes physically on hand.

In other words, when I put on an event, all the other promoters knew they were going to have to take more dollars out of their pockets for their next event if they wanted to keep up with the joneses.

Why steal instead of working with me? Probably two 'good' reasons. One - its cheaper since you won't have to cut Davidson in for a piece and Two - I was being messianic and not accepting anything less than perfection, whereas most everyone else just wanted to do enough to get the teams to attend. They probably didn't want to have to deal with that 'unreasonablness.

All I know is that if you strive for perfection, you won't get there, but you might come close. If you work towards less than perfection, that's what you'll get.

What's corrupt? The game doesn't work. If you think about the format as it is today, if a team didn't 'want' to look aggressive, all they have to learn is a really good defensive strategy, sit on their butts and shoot out the other team that is making foolish, risky advances down the field. The rules emphasize defense. How boring.

It wastes way too much paint. It can't be effectively taped. It passes nothing on to an audience that isn't already familiar with the game. Its uncontrollable on the part of the referees, which essentially means that its not a sport, its a potential cheat-fest.

The ability to stop the game to assess penalties is critical. It makes it a sport. It gives the audience and the commentators a chance to catch-up.

Simplification is a MUST for anything to succeed as a spectator sport. We color-coded and numbered our bunkers AND they were all the exact same type of bunker, set up in the same way. The PaintFest field has been called one of the greatest tournament layouts ever made by many top players. The color-coding and numbering is a simple idea, but works wonders for understanding and following the game. The same bunker everywhere means less confusion AND, since they were all laydowns, makes it much easier for the camera.

I bet that no one playing the 'other' format knows why the field length is 200 feet? Its so that the back end of the field is far enough away from the other team at the beginning to allow for cross-field movement - but still being close enough to allow for some hits. In other words, the teams START the game just inside effective engagement range. My field was 120 feet wide - again because of gun ranges: A(sqr)+B(sqr)=C(sqr), right? The field's diagonal is therefore 233 feet - just barely, conceivably within 'annoyance' range - PREVENTING truly effective firing from corner to corner. THIS is key in promoting manueverability.

I didn't just make some stuff up - I studied this crap hard for ten years. Shooting cross field (tape to tape) is a minimum of 120 feet - not an easy shot, which breaks the field into at least two alleys for lengthwise manueverability.

PLUS, 200 x 120 (playin field, actual dimensions 220 x 140) just fits inside a football field, meaning that there are tens of thousands of potential locations for playing the format already available across the country.

What I realized about all concept field tournament ball was that it sucked because it put all the emphasis on shooting and none on coordinated movement - which was the essence of woodsball. I was bound and determined to find a way to bring movement back into the game and the play at PaintFest was proof positive that the theories were sound. The teams figured it out pretty quickly and we saw a lot of very exciting 'infiltration' play, with bursts of multiple bunkers when teams had manuevered into key positions. Any sports cameraman will tell you that 'movement is it' for the camera.

Play is faster and uses LESS paint. Play is more understandable. Eliminations, by virtue of the bunker layout and the rules are much cleaner. (We played over 60 games with the format at PaintFest and there WAS NOT ONE SINGLE TURN AND TAKE ONE WITH YOU when players bunkered each other.

The list goes on and on...

I could write volumes on this (I already have)...

crap - I didn't mean to quote myself...I thought I hit the edit button, but I guess I hit the reply instead...

[Lohman446]

So....

A tournament is about winning, not fair competition?

[hitech]

This has to be the best thread I've read in a long time. Since I was around back then I can even relate...

:cheers:

[CKY_Alliance]

So rabid do you still have your hand in the nppl? seems as if you don't, but if you hold the patent to it...i dont see why you wouldnt..so i guess im asking if you are not still involved why not? Just the backward ness of it?

[rabidchihauhau]

OY... TALK ABOUT OPENING OLD WOUNDS.

WHO'S GOT THE SALT?

OK - here's a bit of paintball history not known to most folks:

The companies that were my primary backers for PaintFest came to me as a group on the second day of the event and said "Steve, we think this is really great. How many events do you want to do next year?" (2001). I said, I think 5 or 6. They said "Great, we want to do a whole series also. This is what we're going to do. We're going to put our heads together and come up with all of your funding. Once this is over (PaintFest) and you've had a chance to rest, give us a call."

I called. I called and called and called. Delay, put-him-off, delay, hide, ignore...

Then the captain of a team that played PaintFest and who was working with one of the main companies (and sponsored by them) called me up and said "I was just at a meeting and they announced a new league and they're doing your format. When they described it to us I said 'that's Steve's format, I think you better talk to him' and they said "no no no no, its NOT Steve's format, we don't need to talk to him'. The team captain said "I played in it and its his - he has a patent and I think he's going to be pretty upset" "No, its NOT his format - it doesn't infringe on his patent, no, no no"

and then the NXL was announced. The protests from the leaders in the room made it all to evident that they knew exactly what they were doing; there was even discussion about how much it infringed and wild protestations that it 'was nothing like his format'. In other words, they tried to carve out pieces of the format in order to cut me out (even though they weren't successfull, it still infringes).

Following that, there was a tremendous media blitz to elevate a certain someone as the 'inventor and visionary' - the sheer number of interviews and press releases that ran certain quotes were plainly and simply designed to bury any claim I might have had in the paintball public's mind.

Interestingly enough, every single person who was at PaintFest (and who is NOT currently working with or for the companies responsible for the above) has said two things: it most definately IS Davidson's format and I won't play x-ball because of what they did to Davidson.

[rabidchihauhau]

So rabid do you still have your hand in the nppl? seems as if you don't, but if you hold the patent to it...i dont see why you wouldnt..so i guess im asking if you are not still involved why not? Just the backward ness of it?

NPPL does not use my format.

I'd like them to and have made numerous pitches, but it hasn't happened.

I was doing an NPPL feeder series, but I'm afraid that my current situation (heart attack, business, etc) has really put me off paintball once and for all and I don't think I'll be doing the series.

I love doing events, there's just too much grief from nay-sayers these days to make it worthwhile.

I've got so many new and different formats, ideas to play with to keep things interesting. I even have THE PERFECT indoor location for an event - 6 full sized fields under a roof, plus indoor trade show right next to the fields, plus balcony seating, plus beaches right across the street. Its DYING for an event - and I've already done the location review and met with the city (who's up for it) AND the location is cheap, cheap, cheap.


oh well.

[CKY_Alliance]

NPPL does not use my format.

I'd like them to and have made numerous pitches, but it hasn't happened.

I was doing an NPPL feeder series, but I'm afraid that my current situation (heart attack, business, etc) has really put me off paintball once and for all and I don't think I'll be doing the series.

I love doing events, there's just too much grief from nay-sayers these days to make it worthwhile.

I've got so many new and different formats, ideas to play with to keep things interesting. I even have THE PERFECT indoor location for an event - 6 full sized fields under a roof, plus indoor trade show right next to the fields, plus balcony seating, plus beaches right across the street. Its DYING for an event - and I've already done the location review and met with the city (who's up for it) AND the location is cheap, cheap, cheap.


oh well.

Oh, sorry i thought i read nppl, didnt look at the patents. Thats some shady stuff, i assume you decided not to take it to court? Not sure what i would do in that situation, get money and recognition i deserve and ruin one of the major formats, or let it be for the sake of the sport...( not sure if that was your mind set or not but that would be mine).


Oh and event you described above,i assume it's in Fl since that is what your location says..my team would be down, sounds like a good *** time. :cheers:

[hitech]

I even have THE PERFECT indoor location for an event - 6 full sized fields under a roof, plus indoor trade show right next to the fields, plus balcony seating, plus beaches right across the street. Its DYING for an event - and I've already done the location review and met with the city (who's up for it) AND the location is cheap, cheap, cheap.


You must have done that for a reason. An event?!?

[punkncat]

I did not forsee that my post would illicit such good information out into the public eye. This is a spectacular group of posts/interview. Rabid, I want to thank you for taking all the time to reply and make easily available all this for us here on AO. I mean I know its no secret, but at the same time if you didn't know, or know where to look many of us would never have known this chapter in the history and decline of our medium.

I for one wholely support your endeavour and hope you can oversome the crap that has been handed to you. I would gladly donate to a fund if it would help you to handle legal costs to recover some sanity and some real regulation to save/salvage our game from the gutter which is is quickly washing into.

Thanks again :clap: :hail:

[rabidchihauhau]

You must have done that for a reason. An event?!?

Yes, I was planning an indoor event, but for various reasons that particular one was shelved for the time being.

My task was to find something in the states that could handle a skyball type event.

Oh BOY did I find it.

Here are some details:

indoor staging that could handle 100+ teams at a time, each with their own table; paint sales were right there and so were fills; you'd basically walk maybe 20 to 30 feet to get your fills, and 50 feet to walk into the

pre-game staging area. an area adjacent to the fields that could hold 12 teams waiting to start their games, within feet of all of the fields.

once your game was called, you'd walk down an alley that took you to your flag station - with no one (for either end of the field) walking onto the field to get to their stations.

a HUGE indoor trade show area behind a moveable wall; permission to hang netting where that wall normally is so that the backdrop to the trade show are the fields

balcony seating; getting to it takes you through the trade show

additional trade show area right adjacent to the balcony seating

no lighting issues - plenty of ceiling lights

locker rooms that can be used for a limited number of teams (I figured we'd use them for VIP treatment for the teams making it to the semi-finals and on)

no jumbotron - but we could have brought in flat panels

an announcers/press booth over all the action

electronic scoreboard

clean

plenty of parking on site

hotels right across the street - tens of them

beaches on the other side of the hotels

IN A PARTY TOWN

where the bars, strip clubs and other attractions are already primed for groups like this and are more than happy to cut deals in order to get business/advertising.

I could do this one for under $100k - anyone want to invest?

[RogueFactor]

What's corrupt? The game doesn't work. If you think about the format as it is today, if a team didn't 'want' to look aggressive, all they have to learn is a really good defensive strategy, sit on their butts and shoot out the other team that is making foolish, risky advances down the field. The rules emphasize defense. How boring.

It wastes way too much paint. It can't be effectively taped. It passes nothing on to an audience that isn't already familiar with the game. Its uncontrollable on the part of the referees, which essentially means that its not a sport, its a potential cheat-fest.

The ability to stop the game to assess penalties is critical. It makes it a sport. It gives the audience and the commentators a chance to catch-up.

Simplification is a MUST for anything to succeed as a spectator sport. We color-coded and numbered our bunkers AND they were all the exact same type of bunker, set up in the same way. The PaintFest field has been called one of the greatest tournament layouts ever made by many top players. The color-coding and numbering is a simple idea, but works wonders for understanding and following the game. The same bunker everywhere means less confusion AND, since they were all laydowns, makes it much easier for the camera.

Play is faster and uses LESS paint. Play is more understandable. Eliminations, by virtue of the bunker layout and the rules are much cleaner. (We played over 60 games with the format at PaintFest and there WAS NOT ONE SINGLE TURN AND TAKE ONE WITH YOU when players bunkered each other.

The list goes on and on...

So where did it go wrong? Why wasnt there a 2nd? If there was, why isnt in proving to be more successful?


Interestingly enough, every single person who was at PaintFest (and who is NOT currently working with or for the companies responsible for the above) has said two things: it most definately IS Davidson's format and I won't play x-ball because of what they did to Davidson.

Do you believe that XBall is the successful format you had envisioned?

[don miguel]

Just a quick note on this: Unlike every other Angel ever made, the new Angel A1 is made in China.

I kid you not, from the mouth of Ken Crane himself.
no kidding ey? my friend conor will hate to hear that. ;)

[rabidchihauhau]

So where did it go wrong? Why wasnt there a 2nd? If there was, why isnt in proving to be more successful?



Do you believe that XBall is the successful format you had envisioned?


no.

[RogueFactor]

no.

What about XBall isnt as you envisioned? What makes it fail where your idea would have succeeded?

[rabidchihauhau]

here's just a few:

1. they insist on allowing the game to run its course, rather than stopping play for infractions
2. they're still only playing 5 man center flag - a stalemate format
3. they keep changing the field layout - preventing teams from ever being able to develop 'plays'
4. they allow ramping/artificial shooting modes
5. they do not have enough refs on the field
6. they block camera angles with their huge 'x' in the middle of the field
7. they have done nothing to market the game outside of a very small group of people
8. they have done nothing to give the teams personalities that spectators can identify with
9. they have an antiquated scoring system where each goal is only worth one point - no chance for the equivalent of the long bomb-desperation touchdown
10. they rarely enforce all of the applicable penalties, and none of their penalties redress the imbalance of the game caused by the original infraction - everyone is STILL (after 25 years) left with 'oh well, we just got screwed'

It goes nowhere; its so intensive and expensive that they can't export it to the lower ranking teams, there's nothing to attact the wider paintball world to investing in it, there's no real player representation, there's no real roster rules, the list goes on and on and on

[RogueFactor]

Steve:

Interesint points. All of which I totally agree with. Do you think these points were instituted by them to attempt and make their format differ from yours enough?

Also, can you expand on these points:

2. they're still only playing 5 man center flag - a stalemate format

What kind of format did you envision? The one in your patent of a player carrying the flag? What size team did you prefer?



3. they keep changing the field layout - preventing teams from ever being able to develop 'plays'

I agree, 200% with this one. I brought this very point up to a Pro team coach(who has played about as long as you have) and discussed it at length. It was explained to me that the field always changes because there is no focus in paintball(like there is in soccer, football, baseball, etc). And that if the fields were always the same, it would make for a boring game, one where every player would make it to their first bunker and never leave.



Hopefullly, one last question. If you had it all to do over again, what would you do differently to assure success of your format?

[Aggravated Assault]

here's just a few:

1. they insist on allowing the game to run its course, rather than stopping play for infractions
2. they're still only playing 5 man center flag - a stalemate format
3. they keep changing the field layout - preventing teams from ever being able to develop 'plays'
4. they allow ramping/artificial shooting modes
5. they do not have enough refs on the field
6. they block camera angles with their huge 'x' in the middle of the field
7. they have done nothing to market the game outside of a very small group of people
8. they have done nothing to give the teams personalities that spectators can identify with
9. they have an antiquated scoring system where each goal is only worth one point - no chance for the equivalent of the long bomb-desperation touchdown
10. they rarely enforce all of the applicable penalties, and none of their penalties redress the imbalance of the game caused by the original infraction - everyone is STILL (after 25 years) left with 'oh well, we just got screwed'

It goes nowhere; its so intensive and expensive that they can't export it to the lower ranking teams, there's nothing to attact the wider paintball world to investing in it, there's no real player representation, there's no real roster rules, the list goes on and on and on


My god, this is right where I was hoping a different thread awhile back would lead. It is awsome to see posts like this.

Thanks for putting up with the "interrogation" :D


:cheers:

[rabidchihauhau]

I feel like my brain is being picked over by Hannibal Lectors holding paintball guns...

Let's see; the 'no focus' argument (in a different form) was the explanation/discussion/justification that I provided for using a flag in the game.

Its so funny/upsetting to see how these things come back at you after ten+ years, devoid of any connection to their origin AND devoid of most of their sensibility. Its also kind of funny to see/hear MY words coming out of the mouths of people who, shall we say, 'borrowed' them in the first place.

Here is the deal on those questions:

My personal background, and something I spent about the first 25 years of my life doing is as a game designer. I've designed successful board games, successful computer games, games for the military, games for training and gaes for education. One of my games was featured at Disney's EPCOT for over 5 years; another won the IICS 'Golden Disc' award for videodisc-based games; another was nominated for 'most humorous board game of 1984' by GAMA. I think that background gives some validity to my claims.

After playing in my first tournament (which was scored like one of the original NSG tournaments - points for everything, mutually exclusive points for some things, mutually inclusive points for other things, poor game balance, etc - it became painfully apparent to me that the people who had designed this game HAD NOT A CLUE.

For example: they created the primary objective of capturing a flag, and gave it the highest point total to reflect its importance in the game. THEN they added 'flag grab' points - essentially rewarding a team for FAILING TO ACHIEVE THE OBJECTIVE. This is the equivalent of giving a basketball team 1/2 point for bouncing the ball off the rim, or a football team a couple of points for almost getting the ball over the goalline. Ask yourselves how those games would change if the above were in effect. My guess is that football teams wouldn't risk going for touchdowns - they'd just try to get close, and basketball teams would be throwing the ball at the rim from all over the court...

They also did something which is a major game design fubar, which was to create a set of rules that emphasized defensive play. This was done by putting a score value on eliminations, and having those points weighted so heavily that protecting your players becomes a major concern of the game; when one or two eliminations means the difference between advancing and not advancing, sitting on your butt and playing cautiously is a viable (almost dictated) overall strategy.

I must now take a moment for 'game theory' education.

Once you have a set of rules for a game, you've defined a little enclosed universe. The permutations of the rules, coupled with game play, define the boundaries of that universe. ANY permutation that is within the rules is a valid action and anything that breaks the rules is outside that universe.

Game theory is the method by which we analyze the permutations and derive the 'best overall strategy(s) for winning'. The 'best overall strategy' is not a 'do this and you will win every time' its a probabalistic evaluation that says that if you follow a particular strategy, you will stand the best chance of winning most of the time.

For example - when playing tic-tac-toe, who DOESN'T start in a corner? Who DOESN'T try to get first 'go'? We all know that the best chance of winning that game involves two elements - going first and starting from a corner. If you stick with those moves, you will win most of the time.

One of the first things you realize when delving into game theory is that every single rule affects every single other rule and that in order to get a complete picture/analysis, you've got to look at the whole thing in its entirety. This is difficult, as not every rule or permutation expresses itself every time the game is played. Many modern day games have had to go in for major mid-publication redesign following a player finding a major hole - even when the game was tested and evaluated for years in advance.

Paintball is difficult to analyze because of the foregoing and because it involves live people and reality. Your 'best overall strategy' may be working flawlessly until a key player's gun has a screwup. However, that doesn't mean the strategy is bad necessarily.

Okay. If you can wrap your heads around that, here's the rest.

Once you finish analyzing the rules for paintball, it becomes obvious that the best strategies for winning are inherently defensive ones.

1. it is much easier to achieve the primary objective when the number of opponents is reduced in size.

2. there is a higher percentage chance of elimination of a player the closer to the opponents that player is

3. the fewer players you have on the field, the more difficult it will be to achieve the objective

4. if your players are eliminated, not only does you ability to win become compromised, but you are also contributing to the opponent's score

Add to that such classic military maxim's as Napoleon's 'the defense is to the offense as 3 is to 1' and you begin to get the picture.

There is unconscious recognition of this fact in the way teams play; they always set their back players first; they cross up the field when pressured; they 'stage' movement up the field from a defensive base, etc.

Look at it this slightly different way. If a team plays really good defense, they've guaranteed a draw, while maintaining a good possibility of a win in the last few seconds - and isn't that what we see most of the time? whittle whittle whittle - run through - hang ?

All of the above contributed to making games boring for the camera - little or no movement, very light aggressive play, etc.

Once I figured all of that out, I realized two things; the game was bad because there was hardly any movement and somehow the rules needed to reward OFFENSIVE play and minimize or eliminate the impact of defensive play.

I then came up with a scoring system, using the flags, that made you pay a price if you didn't advance your flag; that price was giving the other team a better chance at a higher score.

Now, the more aggressive you were, the fewer the points your opponents could achieve AND at the same time, the higher your potential score become.

I eliminated player points; I wanted teams to throw those bodies down field without fear of paying a price.

(It still mystifies me today that '?-Ball' teams so willingly screw their chances of winning by making foolishly aggressive moves on the field. A team that learned really good defense would win just about every time... I just can't see any reason for it: look at it this way. You win a match by having one more points than the opponent. Let THEM kill themselves with aggressive play and counter when you've eliminated them all to get your points. This FACT of that game is going to hand them problems the minute that the first good team figures this out and puts it to use.)

Now, to answer the questions:

yes, I believe they 'changed' these things in a futile attempt to get around the patent.

yes, we used the flag format at PaintFest and everyone loved it; team size hardly matters; in fact, smaller teams might be more interesting and the PERFECT way to play that game is with pump guns.

the field layout is critical. teams MUST be able to run set plays in order for the audience to get a handle on the game. its KEY to spectator participation that the spectator be involved in predicting and anticipating outcomes.

my plan for fields was that the layout would change every two seasons. season 1 - layout A
season 2 - layout A with layout B provided for practice. Season 3, layout B. season 4 layout B with layout C available for practice...

(giving bunker layout as the focus is like painting the grass neon orange on a football field and telling everyone to watch the grass! Is it a game or a horticultural exhibit?)

What would I do differently now? Despite how distatestful it may be, I would go to certain individuals and say 'ok, I guess I'm not going to get anywhere unless I cut you in on the action. How much do you need?'

[cledford]

Interesting thread here:

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=63851&highlight=game+time+penalty

Has some ideas about how to make play more dynamic and some prognostication from Tom regarding the future of Xball.. Seems that (as usual) he was right on the money - saying the same thing almost 4 years ago that we're saying today.

-Calvin

[rabidchihauhau]

Tom endorsed PaintFest and the concepts behind the format; my partner (Biff Thiele) and I presented it to him sometime in 1999 - might have been as early as '98 - and AGD was a major sponsor of the event, picking up the tab on the fireworks show (when have you ever seen one of those at a tournament?)

Our ideas were very similar about where the sport needed to go: tournament ball SHOULD be the marquee, high-profile public display of the game - it has interesting characters, cool-looking futuristic gear, its own slang, the uniforms and fields are colorful and attractive and the basic concept of people shooting guns at other people for fun is very apealling, at least in an american market.

Where we differed from most everyone else was in our recognition that it wasn't enough to 'say' that, nor was it even enough to buy some air time and wait for the dollars to flow in; a league, a structure - in fact ALL of the elements of any other professional sport had to be in place, not the least of which was SHOWING potential marketing partners HOW they were going to realize the return on their investment.

None of the efforts to date have demonstrated that.

[CKY_Alliance]

Tom endorsed PaintFest and the concepts behind the format; my partner (Biff Thiele) and I presented it to him sometime in 1999 - might have been as early as '98 - and AGD was a major sponsor of the event, picking up the tab on the fireworks show (when have you ever seen one of those at a tournament?)

Our ideas were very similar about where the sport needed to go: tournament ball SHOULD be the marquee, high-profile public display of the game - it has interesting characters, cool-looking futuristic gear, its own slang, the uniforms and fields are colorful and attractive and the basic concept of people shooting guns at other people for fun is very apealling, at least in an american market.

Where we differed from most everyone else was in our recognition that it wasn't enough to 'say' that, nor was it even enough to buy some air time and wait for the dollars to flow in; a league, a structure - in fact ALL of the elements of any other professional sport had to be in place, not the least of which was SHOWING potential marketing partners HOW they were going to realize the return on their investment.

None of the efforts to date have demonstrated that.

I believe it was the Mid-Atlantic Open that had fireworks...i believe that is where i was.
But that was well after PaintFest..so ye

[Old S.O.B.]

You guys should all understand someting. In my opinion, Steve (Rabid) is the father of modern tournament ball. He was the one that started time outs, reffing from the sidelines, cheering spectators, outside refs and real rules! He actuall DID some research when everyone else was saying "we don't need more rules" and found out all serious sports have a rule book a mile thick. He realized that the refs can't sort things out on the fly so the time outs allowed for things to be fixed. Today you have multiple short games that accomiplish the same thing.

In order to personally try and send the sport in a better direction he fanagled all of his retirement money out of a locked account and put on his vision of a tournament. Most people ignored him but everyone that actually attended the tournament thought it was pretty darn cool!

He even had a promo for a million dollar paintball shooting contest! That has never been duplicated.

Love him or hate him, Steve plans, executes and puts his money where his mouth is. A lot of people hate him for it but I think had we followed his lead we would be in a better place today.

AGD

Amen to that Tommy!

[hitech]

I feel like my brain is being picked over by Hannibal Lectors holding paintball guns...

It is! :wow:

I've have found this thread to be fascinating. Tournament rules has always been my favorite topic to discuss. This is the first time I've read anything that was has truly unique ideas that make me go hummmm...

I have always hated the idea of scoring points for player eliminations, but it seemed that I was the only one. And the idea of having a team carry their own flag and attempt to get it to the other side is great. Easily gives the game focus. It also eliminates the wait till the other team is completely eliminated and pull/hang the flag. I've always hated games that went that way.

Thanks for a great read. Too bad your game format wasn't successful. Tournaments might actually be interesting...

:cheers:

Added: Just read some of the patent (and the entire summary). THAT soulds like a fun game. Too bad I'll never get to play it...

[Old S.O.B.]

So youre saying if we have an issue with modern tournament ball, its all Steve's fault? :confused:

I digress...of course he was the one who started all that, its in his best interest to do so. Being that Steve Davidson is the patent holder of this format, thats of little surprise:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=2&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=davidson&s2=paintball&OS=davidson+AND+paintball&RS=davidson+AND+paintball




I dont follow. If he is the father of modern paintball, the "win at all cost" attitiude, and we followed him...wouldnt we be right where we are?

The ideas gave way to realities. Steve adapted as he had to. We spent a lot of cash and sweat trying to show people how it could be done. Those that witnessed it first hand, know how good PaintFest 2000 was. But, we each ate about 120K from our pockets to prove that point. It was a grand event. We paid for the teams hotels, rentals, airport and field shuttles, $20 per hour for judges, TV ... even put on a fireworks show for Tom. The idea was to show players what real sponsorship should be. Of course, we hoped that future events would be covered by real sponsors, like Coke, Bud, American Airlines, etc. But, the fix was in and those in the industry with money prevailed. They liked being the big fish in a little pond. So, win at all cost applied to the industry who I believe saw major outside sponsors coming in as a threat to their control.

[Aggravated Assault]

Tom endorsed PaintFest and the concepts behind the format; my partner (Biff Thiele) and I presented it to him sometime in 1999 - might have been as early as '98 - and AGD was a major sponsor of the event, picking up the tab on the fireworks show (when have you ever seen one of those at a tournament?)

Our ideas were very similar about where the sport needed to go: tournament ball SHOULD be the marquee, high-profile public display of the game - it has interesting characters, cool-looking futuristic gear, its own slang, the uniforms and fields are colorful and attractive and the basic concept of people shooting guns at other people for fun is very apealling, at least in an american market.

Where we differed from most everyone else was in our recognition that it wasn't enough to 'say' that, nor was it even enough to buy some air time and wait for the dollars to flow in; a league, a structure - in fact ALL of the elements of any other professional sport had to be in place, not the least of which was SHOWING potential marketing partners HOW they were going to realize the return on their investment.

None of the efforts to date have demonstrated that.


My question is: in the end if we strip it all down, have the best possible format, do we really have a viable product that people will watch on tv or whatever? And I don't mean some unrealistic goal of paintball becoming some big mainstream sport, but being able to justify its place by getting/keeping the interest of its target audience and attracting sponsors/advertisers from outside the world of paintball.

I would love to hear some opinions on this, in light of everything discussed here.


I myself am wondering if there is something inherent in paintball that is a particular hurdle, and if there is, how would it be handled? Example: Dirt Late Model racing is the biggest racing sport you never heard of. CNN did a special on it and the reporters couldn't believe it's popularity. I know how popular it is, I've been around it for awhile. It stays underground because no matter how hard someone has tried, they havent been able to put on a good TV program. It has particular problems. Dirt is one. Another is being able to give the watcher the visual sensation of speed. This is the angle I'm looking at tv paintball at...Is there an inherent problem not really associated with gameplay?

[Old S.O.B.]

My question is: in the end if we strip it all down, have the best possible format, do we really have a viable product that people will watch on tv or whatever? And I don't mean some unrealistic goal of paintball becoming some big mainstream sport, but being able to justify its place by getting/keeping the interest of its target audience and attracting sponsors/advertisers from outside the world of paintball.

I would love to hear some opinions on this, in light of everything discussed here.


I myself am wondering if there is something inherent in paintball that is a particular hurdle, and if there is, how would it be handled? Example: Dirt Late Model racing is the biggest racing sport you never heard of. CNN did a special on it and the reporters couldn't believe it's popularity. I know how popular it is, I've been around it for awhile. It stays underground because no matter how hard someone has tried, they havent been able to put on a good TV program. It has particular problems. Dirt is one. Another is being able to give the watcher the visual sensation of speed. This is the angle I'm looking at tv paintball at...Is there an inherent problem not really associated with gameplay?

I believe the answer is yes there is still a viable product and there are still sponsors that support the format and the general principles that Steve tried to establish early on. But the key has always been money. If our series could advance independently and the sponsors shared the vision, as our sponsors did at PaintFest, the potential was enormous. But, stuff happened. We exhausted our capital to show people how it could be done so that everyone involved could share the rewards. As Steve pointed out, at the event, there was a chorus of support. When he called them 2 weeks later, he was shut out. What happened in those 2 weeks is what killed the USPL. We had no money left to invest and potential sponsors dried up.

XBall is a compromised and much weaker version of the USPL format, designed to skip around patent infringement. By dodging the facets of the game that could be bold infringement, the format was so watered down that it lost the potential it had for that brief moment in LaPorte. It goes back to the defensive posture that was dragging the game down in the beginning. (Dragging it down as in losing that offensive, action based appeal that ESPN told us was missing.) That was what motivated Steve to design the game around TV. It has to be appealing to an audience. No TV audience - no big time sponsors. When they cut deliberately the USPL out of the USPL format, they got what's left. It's JUST XBall!

[RogueFactor]

I feel like my brain is being picked over by Hannibal Lectors holding paintball guns...

It is :D

Interestingly enough, 3 years ago I was reffing, assisting coaching, running with a pro team or 2 to the major tournaments. After a year of being on the 'inside', I wasnt happy with any of the formats. Or the obvious cheating. Then came the widespread use of ramping. Within that next year a handful of incidents made me realize that ramping was the straw that broke the camels back. And it wasnt just me, others were sick of it too.

For those 3 years I was formulating a new format. Revising it here and there. And over the last 3 years I had been researching---which is how I came across your patent.

Its interesting to read so many of the ideas that you came up with before I was even a part of mainstream paintball, but that I arrived at independently before ever seeing your patent.

There is no doubt in my mind that you have the background that gives validity to your claims. All of your postulations make total sense.


For example: they created the primary objective of capturing a flag, and gave it the highest point total to reflect its importance in the game. THEN they added 'flag grab' points - essentially rewarding a team for FAILING TO ACHIEVE THE OBJECTIVE.

I agree. But, in their defensive game, I believe the intent of getting some points for pulling the flag was to 'try' to encourage offensive moves. Albeit, a crappy way of doing it, but still the intent.


They also did something which is a major game design fubar, which was to create a set of rules that emphasized defensive play. This was done by putting a score value on eliminations, and having those points weighted so heavily that protecting your players becomes a major concern of the game; when one or two eliminations means the difference between advancing and not advancing, sitting on your butt and playing cautiously is a viable (almost dictated) overall strategy.

Ive found this also emphasizes the desire to cheat. If points are assigned for eliminations, then not being eliminated is of paramount importance---creating the need to wipe, play-on, etc.


Once I figured all of that out, I realized two things; the game was bad because there was hardly any movement and somehow the rules needed to reward OFFENSIVE play and minimize or eliminate the impact of defensive play.

I think thats what most will argue that XBall does. But, without the other major details, they fall short of the full game it creates.


the field layout is critical. teams MUST be able to run set plays in order for the audience to get a handle on the game. its KEY to spectator participation that the spectator be involved in predicting and anticipating outcomes.

Or to building for the inevitable 'touchdown' or 'homerun' type play, right?


What would I do differently now? Despite how distatestful it may be, I would go to certain individuals and say 'ok, I guess I'm not going to get anywhere unless I cut you in on the action. How much do you need?'

Did you originally not intend to cut them in? Or do you think they thought you were asking for too much $$$?

I guess I dont understand why, given the format you propose, why any company wouldnt want to pay the licensing fee and figure it into the Cost of Doing Business.

[robnix]

snipped very long and informative post

You've managed to address every single complaint I had about the recent tournament they had on ESPN.

[zorrotmm]

You know, I've recognized the need for a new format for quite some time now. In fact, I've been privately brainstorming a new format for a couple years. I've got some radically different ideas, but there's also several I came up with that have already been addressed in this thread. The common denominator is we're all trying to solve the same problems that have been thrust upon us.

I plan on owning a field in the next 2-4 years if all goes well. My plan is to implement the new format, and begin building tournaments locally. If all goes well, I would look at slowly starting a chain of fields, and/or coordinate with other local fields to form leagues/tournaments. I think the key to this issue is to build strong local fields that are willing to network, use a different format and build their own league or leagues. I think we all need to accept the "revolutionary" idea that right now, we DONT NEED professional paintball. We don't need the NXL and we don't need the NPPL in their current state. Let them continue on this self-destructive path until they strangle their own industry. Quality national events, while appealing, are not the answer. Local leagues operated by strong local fields that can sustain themselves is where we need to start.

From that foundation, in years to come perhaps we can build back up until we have a professional league that is good for the sport. But I don't think we need to think about that until we no longer have to drive for hours to find a halfway decent field. The key is to take the game back from the manufacturers and make them work for the sport, not the other way around. It would take some quality leadership and a lot more time, but it's the only way to put the fate of the sport back in the hands of those who care about it.

[RogueFactor]

They also did something which is a major game design fubar, which was to create a set of rules that emphasized defensive play. This was done by putting a score value on eliminations, and having those points weighted so heavily that protecting your players becomes a major concern of the game; when one or two eliminations means the difference between advancing and not advancing, sitting on your butt and playing cautiously is a viable (almost dictated) overall strategy.

All of the above contributed to making games boring for the camera - little or no movement, very light aggressive play, etc.

Once I figured all of that out, I realized two things; the game was bad because there was hardly any movement and somehow the rules needed to reward OFFENSIVE play and minimize or eliminate the impact of defensive play.

I then came up with a scoring system, using the flags, that made you pay a price if you didn't advance your flag; that price was giving the other team a better chance at a higher score.

I eliminated player points; I wanted teams to throw those bodies down field without fear of paying a price.

Interestingly, there is a format that addresses many of these points... http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=207209

Is this format based on your input? Are you involved with Money Paintball? It strangely has quite a few similarities.

[rabidchihauhau]

No, I am not involved in this project and was just as curious as everyone else to see if there was something new in it - and I don't see it there.

I think paintball players are going to roundly reject the concept that they can be eliminated without being shot.

At first blush, this looks more like a combo of dodgeball and paintball than anything else.

I also think - without looking at the rules or really be familiar with the format at all, that a swapped offense/defense format is problematical for paintball; how do they handle a team NEVER able to go on offense?

And, once again - tactics and play balance: if 'any player behind the scrimmage line is eliminated' - you are NEVER able to gain angle shots, which are critical to paintball play - ummm - FLANKING ...

So how do they handle a run through with the flag posessor screaming - he was behind me when he shot me!

And, of course - defense. A player gets the flag, defenders lock down the field and the game just sits...

Once again (and I concede up front that I don't have enough info to really be making such pronouncements) it seems that someone unfamiliar with games has designed one without really looking at all the future permutations.

[rabidchihauhau]

It is :D

Interestingly enough, 3 years ago I was reffing, assisting coaching, running with a pro team or 2 to the major tournaments. After a year of being on the 'inside', I wasnt happy with any of the formats. Or the obvious cheating. Then came the widespread use of ramping. Within that next year a handful of incidents made me realize that ramping was the straw that broke the camels back. And it wasnt just me, others were sick of it too.

For those 3 years I was formulating a new format. Revising it here and there. And over the last 3 years I had been researching---which is how I came across your patent.

Its interesting to read so many of the ideas that you came up with before I was even a part of mainstream paintball, but that I arrived at independently before ever seeing your patent.

There is no doubt in my mind that you have the background that gives validity to your claims. All of your postulations make total sense.



I agree. But, in their defensive game, I believe the intent of getting some points for pulling the flag was to 'try' to encourage offensive moves. Albeit, a crappy way of doing it, but still the intent.



Ive found this also emphasizes the desire to cheat. If points are assigned for eliminations, then not being eliminated is of paramount importance---creating the need to wipe, play-on, etc.



I think thats what most will argue that XBall does. But, without the other major details, they fall short of the full game it creates.



Or to building for the inevitable 'touchdown' or 'homerun' type play, right?



Did you originally not intend to cut them in? Or do you think they thought you were asking for too much $$$?

I guess I dont understand why, given the format you propose, why any company wouldnt want to pay the licensing fee and figure it into the Cost of Doing Business.

NO, I did not deliberately cut anyone out. The 'mantra' at USPL was "WE WILL WORK WITH ANYONE WILLING TO WORK WITH US"

The problem was on THEIR end, not mine. They didn't want to share, they didn't want a 'piece' they wanted CONTROL AND they wanted me out of the picture.

Why? Because I'm "unreasonable". Instead of making lots and lots of money right now, I wanted to build something that would last for a long time AND, perhaps most damaging of all, I didn't want ANYONE "in control"; I wanted proper representation for the teams and players, I wanted the referees to be totally independant of any financial coercion, I wanted every paintball company to have a reasonable and proportional opportunity to participate and benefit and I wanted to put the breaks on technology within the league. Most of all, I wanted a set of rules and operating policies that provided accountability, transparency and responsibility on the part of the participants.

Those requirements are like letting the sunlight in on a vampire's coffin room when it comes to many of the companies in the industry. They CAN'T maintain their position of dominance in a FAIR environment, so they MUST prevent fair environments from ever coming into being.

This is perhaps the biggest irony of our industry: everything is based on playing a game that by all rights should be fair, but instead the winners get the cheese by cheating...

[Aggravated Assault]

I believe the answer is yes there is still a viable product and there are still sponsors that support the format and the general principles that Steve tried to establish early on. But the key has always been money. If our series could advance independently and the sponsors shared the vision, as our sponsors did at PaintFest, the potential was enormous.

Thanks SOB. So your feelings (and rabids too I assume) is that there is no big inherent hurdle paintball has in regards to putting out a good tv product. Myself, I was thinking there could possibly be a couple. One could be the paintballs themselves. Its pretty hard to see the actual paintballs flying around. The other is the camera work I've seen on ESPN or WGN or whoever has had the recent TV shows. I guess that would be a thing that could improve, unless the problem lies more with the format or maybe the fact that the teams are spread out so much. Take Football - it has a line of scrimmage - they all line up there and its easy to follow the games progress. In paintball we are all over the field thats prolly 3/4 as big as a football field.


But, stuff happened. We exhausted our capital to show people how it could be done so that everyone involved could share the rewards. As Steve pointed out, at the event, there was a chorus of support. When he called them 2 weeks later, he was shut out. What happened in those 2 weeks is what killed the USPL...

This is interesting. And kinda goes along with the last posts. Are you (or rabid) of the opinion that "in the couple weeks after the event" certain people in the industry got their heads together and went "hmm, this has potential. How do we take [someone elses] idea and make it own?" (hey, politicians do it all the time) Or, do any of you feel that it was just a knee-jerk reaction to a perceived threat to "their" format.

I've dug around my own pile of mags and the web (very briefly) looking for articles. I haven't found much except just small blurbs on Paintfest or some on USPL (usually piggybacking a bunch of info on XBALL and its inventor.) The article I found at home is not a rip, but a less than flattering assesment of the event itself. Did the paintball media try to bury the concept? Or did some of the 3rd party assesments of the event and concept have valid points? Either? Neither? Both?

[Lohman446]

Imagine the hit to marker sales if ramping was never allowed - that basically helped support sales from when ti was allowed until now as old products were rendered "obsolete" by a rule change.

Of course the manufacturers want say in the rules, and control. Now, when ramping up to 25BPS is allowed, everyone will be convinced they need new equipment designed for it.

[Old S.O.B.]

Thanks SOB. So your feelings (and rabids too I assume) is that there is no big inherent hurdle paintball has in regards to putting out a good tv product. Myself, I was thinking there could possibly be a couple. One could be the paintballs themselves. Its pretty hard to see the actual paintballs flying around. The other is the camera work I've seen on ESPN or WGN or whoever has had the recent TV shows. I guess that would be a thing that could improve, unless the problem lies more with the format or maybe the fact that the teams are spread out so much. Take Football - it has a line of scrimmage - they all line up there and its easy to follow the games progress. In paintball we are all over the field thats prolly 3/4 as big as a football field.



This is interesting. And kinda goes along with the last posts. Are you (or rabid) of the opinion that "in the couple weeks after the event" certain people in the industry got their heads together and went "hmm, this has potential. How do we take [someone elses] idea and make it own?" (hey, politicians do it all the time) Or, do any of you feel that it was just a knee-jerk reaction to a perceived threat to "their" format.

I've dug around my own pile of mags and the web (very briefly) looking for articles. I haven't found much except just small blurbs on Paintfest or some on USPL (usually piggybacking a bunch of info on XBALL and its inventor.) The article I found at home is not a rip, but a less than flattering assesment of the event itself. Did the paintball media try to bury the concept? Or did some of the 3rd party assesments of the event and concept have valid points? Either? Neither? Both?


First of all Steve also developed a patent (that WarPig shared with USPL for a few years) which basically taught the cameras to focus on a particular color traveling at a certain speed. The paint color would be designated by the promoter and the camera told which color. You or me running with similar or identical color on our jersey wouldn't show up. But paintballs travelling at 250FPS or higher would look like tracers. Steve took what was done in hockey and converted it. Unlike hockey pucks, paintballs could not have chips in them - too expensive and would slice up the player when the balls broke. But, teaching the camera was genious.

To your other point, yes. People in the industry and some in the paintball media worked closely and Steve was seen as a force to be reconed with. I have no doubt that there were calls made and money exchanged to stifle the attempt to make the game fairer for players of the game and players in the industry. They wanted to maintain control and keep the game manageable. As I stated before, they wanted to remain the big fish in a small pond. Even the biggest paintball industry manufacturers and distributors would be no match for Coca Cola, United Airlines or NASCAR. Steve's ideas were inconvenient for those wanting to manipulate the game, which is why it is STILL a game and not a sport.

[Old S.O.B.]

<<Originally Posted by Aggravated Assault
Thanks SOB. So your feelings (and rabids too I assume) is that there is no big inherent hurdle paintball has in regards to putting out a good tv product.>>

TV wanted this after the '94 debut by Disney World/ESPN2. Fred Schultz brought about 50 people to Orlando. Fred flew us all in from all over the country. He put us up in private cabins on the lake at the Marriott. He got us all Back-Stage passes to Disney World. We met with ESPN and laid it out. Fred captained a team and Tom captained a team. Disney World shut down New York Street and we played paintball in brightly colored tights and jerseys, hiding behind taxis, hot dog stands and other Disney props - all on ESPN2. ESPN planned to stuff the show in as filler over a particular weekend, but the show had the top ratings for the entire weekend. That opened people's eyes - both in TV and in paintball. It was the first time players were not wearing camoflage and playing in the woods. The potential was huge.

Within a year the powers that be with money stepped in and destroyed it all. Again having narrow self-serving interests and short sighted profits for "just us" in mind, TV was brought in. But, players had to pay to play again and ESPN got ripped off. It was in court for a while and when it was over, ESPN said "We are done with these paintball guys!" At the same time the teams were struggling to hold power in the NPPL. But, the same control freaks with the big cash, bought support, threatened to cut sponsorship and manipulated the vote.

Steve, myself and a few dozen others, including other NPPL officers and teams cut our loses and left the NPPL. Steve and I decided to try to implement his ideas in the GTO and later in the USPL. But, it didn't stop there.

I'm reminded of a tournament we held at the old Challenge Park. There were a couple of teams that tried to sabotage the event. One actually called in, asking us to hold off starting times, because they were lost. They said they were right on the road in, but couldn't find the field. They didn't know that we were standing on the raod and you can see the entire span from one end to the other - no car existed, they weren't coming and we knew it. We started on time. Other teams called in sick or simply didn't show, in an attempt to throw off the scheduling. But, Steve had multiple schedules in his head and we adapted within minutes. The event went on and since only about a half dozen teams or so showed up, we dumped thousands of dollars worth of prizes (not promises) on the few that came. The teams and sponsors loved it. The press ate it up and we did 5 more events that year.

Some of the teams who failed to show up (all coincidently sponsored by some of the same control freaks) actually had the nerve to call and ask for their entry money back. We told them their money did not go towards a profit, but rather went to the teams who showed up in the form of prizes - not cash - since we barred all pro teams and this was strictly an amateur series.

But, I digress. My point is, "if you build it, they will come." A lot of good people are still out there and TV would jump on a descent product. Steve has it all exactly right. Patents and contracts are key to keeping the sharks away. But, we ran out of cash.

Can you imagine... If we had had the cash to maintain a patented series and wage fights to hold the thiefs accountable, the game would be a sport, today, the big sponsors would be national brand names, TV would be at every event, the players would be getting paid to play and EVERYONE would be profiting. Players get on planes looking like NASCAR drivers with sponsors names all over their jerseys. Teams would flock to local fields to practice where licensing agreements existed. Local stores would have their names right next to Coca Cola on bunkers and TV screens. So, many possibilities!

That's my diatribe. I guess the short answer is there is only one "inherent hurdle" ... money.

[hitech]

TV wanted this after the '94 debut by Disney World/ESPN2. Fred Schultz brought about 50 people to Orlando.

Was Freddy at the original paintFest? I remember him having his own (or was it part of the one you spoke about) legal issues with TV coverage/contracts. I never did hear the final word on that.

[Old S.O.B.]

Was Freddy at the original paintFest? I remember him having his own (or was it part of the one you spoke about) legal issues with TV coverage/contracts. I never did hear the final word on that.

Can't raise Fred. Been trying for a couple years. I guess I could write a letter and send it to his home i California. I don't think he opens email any more. Once in a while I would catch his daughter on line.

No, he was gone by the time we did PaintFest.

[hitech]

Can't raise Fred. Been trying for a couple years. I guess I could write a letter and send it to his home i California. I don't think he opens email any more. Once in a while I would catch his daughter on line.

No, he was gone by the time we did PaintFest.

Seems like he fell off the edge of the earth. NO ONE seems to be able to get a hold of him.

When was paintfest? I thought he was still playing late into the 90s, but memory is the second thing to go, and I've never been good with dates... :rofl:

[Old S.O.B.]

Seems like he fell off the edge of the earth. NO ONE seems to be able to get a hold of him.

When was paintfest? I thought he was still playing late into the 90s, but memory is the second thing to go, and I've never been good with dates... :rofl:

PaintFest 2000 was in September 2000. It aired in 120 venues on Thanksgiving weekend.

[RogueFactor]

NO, I did not deliberately cut anyone out. The 'mantra' at USPL was "WE WILL WORK WITH ANYONE WILLING TO WORK WITH US"

The problem was on THEIR end, not mine. They didn't want to share, they didn't want a 'piece' they wanted CONTROL AND they wanted me out of the picture.

Why? Because I'm "unreasonable". Instead of making lots and lots of money right now, I wanted to build something that would last for a long time AND, perhaps most damaging of all, I didn't want ANYONE "in control"; I wanted proper representation for the teams and players, I wanted the referees to be totally independant of any financial coercion, I wanted every paintball company to have a reasonable and proportional opportunity to participate and benefit and I wanted to put the breaks on technology within the league. Most of all, I wanted a set of rules and operating policies that provided accountability, transparency and responsibility on the part of the participants.

Those requirements are like letting the sunlight in on a vampire's coffin room when it comes to many of the companies in the industry. They CAN'T maintain their position of dominance in a FAIR environment, so they MUST prevent fair environments from ever coming into being.

This is perhaps the biggest irony of our industry: everything is based on playing a game that by all rights should be fair, but instead the winners get the cheese by cheating...

Interestingly, that is exactly what I was striving for too.


But, we ran out of cash.

Can you imagine... If we had had the cash to maintain a patented series and wage fights to hold the thiefs accountable, the game would be a sport, today, the big sponsors would be national brand names, TV would be at every event, the players would be getting paid to play and EVERYONE would be profiting. Players get on planes looking like NASCAR drivers with sponsors names all over their jerseys. Teams would flock to local fields to practice where licensing agreements existed. Local stores would have their names right next to Coca Cola on bunkers and TV screens. So, many possibilities!

That's my diatribe. I guess the short answer is there is only one "inherent hurdle" ... money.

Was it not possible to seek outside investors? With the amount of money you had already put in, and the results to show from successful events, did nobody want to invest?

[Old S.O.B.]

Interestingly, that is exactly what I was striving for too.



Was it not possible to seek outside investors? With the amount of money you had already put in, and the results to show from successful events, did nobody want to invest?


People wanted to invest, teams wanted to play, sponsors wanted to join. But, everyone was afraid of pissing off the powers that be. Those in control could manipulate players, teams, even some sponsors. No one wanted to be involved in the politics and so they became the pawns in the politics. I can't tell you how many amateur teams called me to complain about issues that they ignored when we needed their support.

"The system sucks" they would say. "We don't care about the politics. All we want is to play." I would tell them "You can't just play. You need to stand up at NPPL meetings and vote in your team's best interest." The meeting would begin and teams would change their vote, because they were told by a sponsor if they didn't change their vote, their sponsorship would dry up. Or ... certain teams were instructed not to show up at all, insuring that the best case scenario in the interest of the amateur teams and fair play would not prevail. The same thing was going on within the industry. Businesses were bought out, distributors didn't deliver on time.

Everyone had something to lose if they stepped out of line. We didn't care. We couldn't be bought. We stood up. We spoke for the teams. We bucked the system. And then we got shut out. We counted on each other and we did exactly what we said we would 'til the money ran out. The only people to ever complain about us or GTO or the USPL were motivated by selfish greed and a desire to control the game and stifle dissent. If I had a quarter million to burn, I'd drag every damned one of them to court. After I beat them in court, I'd take a piece of their business and donate it to the amateur divisions and leagues. The pros are too far gone. They have too much to lose and they so have become pussies to stand up for what's right. They are slaves to their owners and sponsors.

Don't get me wrong. There are some great sponsors out there - people with real integrity and a desire to do the right thing by their teams and players. But, there are just not enough to make a difference. And then there's the spine issue. A lot of people talk the talk. But, as described above, when it comes time to speak, often the silence is deafening. It is very tough to step up and place your business or team on the line to make a point - even when you know it's the right thing to do.

[RogueFactor]

People wanted to invest, teams wanted to play, sponsors wanted to join. But, everyone was afraid of pissing off the powers that be. Those in control could manipulate players, teams, even some sponsors. No one wanted to be involved in the politics and so they became the pawns in the politics. I can't tell you how many amateur teams called me to complain about issues that they ignored when we needed their support.

"The system sucks" they would say. "We don't care about the politics. All we want is to play." I would tell them "You can't just play. You need to stand up at NPPL meetings and vote in your team's best interest." The meeting would begin and teams would change their vote, because they were told by a sponsor if they didn't change their vote, their sponsorship would dry up. Or ... certain teams were instructed not to show up at all, insuring that the best case scenario in the interest of the amateur teams and fair play would not prevail. The same thing was going on within the industry. Businesses were bought out, distributors didn't deliver on time.

Everyone had something to lose if they stepped out of line. We didn't care. We couldn't be bought. We stood up. We spoke for the teams. We bucked the system. And then we got shut out. We counted on each other and we did exactly what we said we would 'til the money ran out. The only people to ever complain about us or GTO or the USPL were motivated by selfish greed and a desire to control the game and stifle dissent. If I had a quarter million to burn, I'd drag every damned one of them to court. After I beat them in court, I'd take a piece of their business and donate it to the amateur divisions and leagues. The pros are too far gone. They have too much to lose and they so have become pussies to stand up for what's right. They are slaves to their owners and sponsors.

Don't get me wrong. There are some great sponsors out there - people with real integrity and a desire to do the right thing by their teams and players. But, there are just not enough to make a difference. And then there's the spine issue. A lot of people talk the talk. But, as described above, when it comes time to speak, often the silence is deafening. It is very tough to step up and place your business or team on the line to make a point - even when you know it's the right thing to do.


But it sounds like the format you envisioned, the team cost is considerably less. Meaning less reliance of the teams on their sponsors.

Was everyone just short-sighted?

[geekwarrior]

paintfest 2000 vid (http://webdog.specialopspaintball.com/video/oldschool/#tourney)

scroll down to tournaments, near the bottom. :cheers:

[Old S.O.B.]

But it sounds like the format you envisioned, the team cost is considerably less. Meaning less reliance of the teams on their sponsors.

Was everyone just short-sighted?


Yes. And initially, we took all the risk. PaintFest was on us. In fact, what we proposed down the road was no cost to teams. That required others to invest in the future.

[rabidchihauhau]

Here's another thing that happened:

we had the interest of IMG (the same 'biggest sports marketing company in the world' that was recently working with NPPL); all we had to do was provide a tape giving them some idea of what it would look like in front of the camera.

we had tape - there were three companies out at PaintFest covering it.

Initially, all the video companies called us up and said 'we'll tape your event for 10K'.

We said 'no'. Our sworn strategy was that we were not going to devalue the product by giving it away or paying to have someone work on it. We'd be happy to work out deals, and more than happy to have someone option the rights by paying us - but we were sticking to our guns and maintaining the potential value.

Well, wouldn't you know, but one of the video companies said - ok, you put up the product, we'll put up the taping; we want x, y, z for selling rights, etc., etc. We negotiated a fair deal - USPL would get a percentage of the video sales and pay nothing to get the event taped. Hey - problem of the tape for IMG solved.

Right.

Of course, once it became known that we got 'paid' for the rights to tape, the other two companies relented and said 'if you let us tape, we won't charge you'. We checked with the first company, who okayed the participation of the other two and we ended up potentially making a profit, having a production company that could get us on the air (and did) and a third along for the ride - all because we were right and stuck to our guns.

The event ends and guess what - everyone wants 10K to actually PRODUCE a video of the event and/or give us a copy for IMG.

So, maybe, somewhere, there's several hundred hours of tape of PaintFest in all its glory, waiting to be edited together.

Unless the tapes were wiped, as they probably have been.

That wasn't the end, though. The folks at the then WWF called up when the XFL fell apart and said 'we're interested in your format'

uh huh. they were also interested in having something they could schedule into all the stadiums they had already paid for...

I said 'sure, we'd definately be interested in talking, as long as you're planning on doing a serious sport and not a clown show...'

needless to say, there were no more conversations with the McMahon family...

[Aggravated Assault]

The thing is, there can be no change untill there is enough people fed up with the current state of affairs. When there is, I believe if there's a great alternative, people will come. I can only speak of stuff I read, or a few guys I know who still have friends industry. Lord knows I'm no "insider" and this is purely observational, but for awhile now I have almost sensed an growing undercurrent of dissatisfaction with the major tournament scene, different from the normal complaining.

First, The paintball rags all have articles on "why cant so and so get it together". Or they're bashing some aspect of an event or major sereis. I mean almost ALL of them. Almost every issue. A steady drumbeat. Second, Its worse than a game of musicial chairs with many pro teams right now. Why? I'll take a stab MONEY. People are making promises to pay and either A) they aren't making the money to actually pay them, ie. lying about it. Or B) Sponsors are drying up or falling thru or dont want to put out the big bucks into the game. This "pro" thing is almost a farce. Third, from what I am told the two big series are loosing money like its being shot out of a cannon. Fourth, From what I am told, even though paintball "growth" numbers are up again, sales are not what many of the big companies have expected. Add to that we have a format that isn't tv friendly, and paintball has to pay to play on it... And on and on...

Maybe I'm just reading too much into it, but I think the major players, ie. nppl psp, may be heading towards some kind of collapse. either or both. Or, at the least, some changes are going to have to be made for them to survive. I dont believe the leauges are as sound as they would like you to think.


Hopefully revolution isn't that far away. Maybe real tournament paintball can be saved.

[rabidchihauhau]

the same thing has happened several times before; one of them was 1991-1992 when we put NPPL together because of an industry-wide dissatisfaction.

That time it worked - but very shortly thereafter, the money-grubbers were back in charge.

As someone else noted, the teams have had the opportunities in the past and just haven't been willing to take a stand, or make their voices heard.

When we put NPPL together, we knew it would work because ALL of the national traveling teams were in it - without them, NO tournament had a chance at survival.

Don't get me wrong - I still back NPPL; I wish that the 'other' so-called national tournament series would hang up their banners and stop trying to run the only viable series there is out of business - one where AT LEAST lip service is being paid to fairness and sportsmanship.

I think the only appeal that can be made and might be heard is one to the corporate big boys who now run the show - its in their financial best interests to have a competition arm to the industry...

[RogueFactor]

I wish that the 'other' so-called national tournament series would hang up their banners and stop trying to run the only viable series there is out of business - one where AT LEAST lip service is being paid to fairness and sportsmanship.

Hasnt that been those 'others' Method of Operation to date?

Why would they want to build a bigger pie?! Its so much easier to destroy anothers pie instead.

[Aggravated Assault]

Here's what I'm not getting tho - IF the series are loosing money like I have been told, it seems to me a bad deal for companies that are sponsoring teams to also be bailing out the series the teams are playing in, at the same time.
Here's to hoping they both are in a financial death spiral :cheers:

Then, while the major series are cracking, the revolution could start. Not at the top, but at lower divisions at least a rung or two (or three) down. Write the "pros" and almost pros off the list. The lower divisions get the shaft more often than most, and spend a lot of time and money for that privilege. Not all of them are that dumb. They realize it's the only game in town. Now, if the carrot were big enough, you could bring them in. You wouldn't need 'em all or even half. Just enough to fly under the radar.


The revolution has to be grass roots. Its gotta start at the lower middle to bottom. It has to cover several regions with a unified plan of attack and some kind of playoff/championship structure unique and/or interesting. It has to put integrity into the game. It has to offer what the current status quo does not.


We must unite...

We must dissent...

[zorrotmm]

Here's what I'm not getting tho - IF the series are loosing money like I have been told, it seems to me a bad deal for companies that are sponsoring teams to also be bailing out the series the teams are playing in, at the same time.
Here's to hoping they both are in a financial death spiral :cheers:

Then, while the major series are cracking, the revolution could start. Not at the top, but at lower divisions at least a rung or two (or three) down. Write the "pros" and almost pros off the list. The lower divisions get the shaft more often than most, and spend a lot of time and money for that privilege. Not all of them are that dumb. They realize it's the only game in town. Now, if the carrot were big enough, you could bring them in. You wouldn't need 'em all or even half. Just enough to fly under the radar.


The revolution has to be grass roots. Its gotta start at the lower middle to bottom. It has to cover several regions with a unified plan of attack and some kind of playoff/championship structure unique and/or interesting. It has to put integrity into the game. It has to offer what the current status quo does not.


We must unite...

We must dissent...


I agree 100%. As I was saying earlier, forget the pros, build strong local fields and leagues. Years from now when we actually have a national INFASTRUCTURE, then maybe we can worry about pros again.

[RogueFactor]

Just enough to fly under the radar.

The revolution has to be grass roots.It has to offer what the current status quo does not.

Been saying that for 2 years now to all who would listen. Problem is, even those with little individual power dont want to start small. It takes allot of work. In our OCD/ADD/Gotta have it now society, everyone wants instant success and riches overnight.

[CoolHand]

Been saying that for 2 years now to all who would listen. Problem is, even those with little individual power dont want to start small. It takes allot of work. In our OCD/ADD/Gotta have it now society, everyone wants instant success and riches overnight.

About three or four years ago I tried to run a summer series with trophies and cash prizes. Nothing fancy, just fair/tough reffing and an overall concern that the teams had a good time. FPO $55 a case for Blaze, $45 per team entry fee ($15 per man, on a 3 man team, all the cash went to prizes for the top five teams).

I couldn't get anyone to come because I was out in BFE and we wouldn't tolerate cheating. The first date we had five teams. Second date we had three. Third - fifth dates I cancelled.

I was losing my ***. I had to pay the refs well enough that they'd pay attention, pay someone to watch the till and sell paint. I got real lucky that I found a venue that was willing to accommodate a gamble (a local youth soccer field who agreed to let us play for the concession proceeds), and a local scuba guy who ran his compressor off his truck's tailgate for the air money ($5 a man all day air).

I bought the field, the paint, and all the gear out of my own pocket. I got lucky again that I didn't get caught with half a flat of Blaze (I managed to sell it to a guy here on AO actually). The field I sold here on AO as well, but at a slight loss. I ended up eating all the support gear and other stuff (a metric assload of barrel condoms for starters).

I tried to bring PB to my town in a very affordable and fair way, and not a single person from the town it was hosted in actually played. NOT ONE. I advertised for weeks before the first date.

So I gave up. If no one in your own home town will support you, why bother. Screw-em. They can drive to St Louis if they want to play. :mad:

[RogueFactor]

About three or four years ago I tried to run a summer series with trophies and cash prizes. Nothing fancy, just fair/tough reffing and an overall concern that the teams had a good time. FPO $55 a case for Blaze, $45 per team entry fee ($15 per man, on a 3 man team, all the cash went to prizes for the top five teams).

I bought the field, the paint, and all the gear out of my own pocket.

I remember your field and the skid of paint you had for sale. Did you ever find out why the teams wouldnt show? Did you get any feedback whatsoever?

I helped run about a half dozen 3-man tournies in Southern California, with team entries at $105 per team($35 a head), which included all day air.We had between 9 & 20 teams show every event. One was put on every other month. I never did any of the ad/marketing, so I dont really know what was involved on that end. But I coordinated the paint for the events, which FPO was $55-$65 case for Zap mid-grade paint.

Needless to say, the event made money. Not for me, I was just a volunteer who helped support by reffing, and by getting wholesale prices on the necessities for them.

[CoolHand]

I remember your field and the skid of paint you had for sale. Did you ever find out why the teams wouldnt show? Did you get any feedback whatsoever?

I helped run about a half dozen 3-man tournies in Southern California, with team entries at $105 per team($35 a head), which included all day air.We had between 9 & 20 teams show every event. One was put on every other month. I never did any of the ad/marketing, so I dont really know what was involved on that end. But I coordinated the paint for the events, which FPO was $55-$65 case for Zap mid-grade paint.

Needless to say, the event made money. Not for me, I was just a volunteer who helped support by reffing, and by getting wholesale prices on the necessities for them.

Well, it was a combination of things I think.

1) I'm out in BFE. 150 miles from St Louis. Long drive for most teams.
2) The locals fear of competition. Anyone who wore a jersey instantly scared the hell out of anyone who lived in town. They simply refused to play because they'd get shot every game ( :tard: ).
3) The teams who did come wanted ridiculous prizes. I actually had a three man team ask why I wasn't giving away three Alias Timmys for first place instead of a "crappy" trophy and $200 (Never mind that the entry fee was almost nothing. Total cost to play was $20 per man plus paint, five games guaranteed).
4) We didn't tolerate cheating. Period. I posted the rules on the website and had three copies go out with every entry packet. They all knew what the rules were, and so did the refs. When a call went down that they didn't like, they screamed at me and I backed the ref's call, good or bad. One team did the "We're never coming back, we want our money back." thing, and I told them to walk. They shut up and played by the rules for the rest of the event. Didn't come back though.

I get the feeling that I'm just too damned grumpy to deal with the public in general. Best to leave me in the machine shop all by myself with the whirrr of cutting tools.

[geekwarrior]

I get the feeling that I'm just too damned grumpy to deal with the public in general. Best to leave me in the machine shop all by myself with the whirrr of cutting tools.


why can't there be people like you around my area, someone who is willing to put on a small local tourney...I'm not even interested in $$ prizes. It'd just be cool to enter and have some fun, and for $20 per man?! I pay that much to play at our fields anyways.

Rogue, how long ago was the tourney you mentioned, and are there plans to have it again? :shooting:

[RogueFactor]

Well, it was a combination of things I think.

1) I'm out in BFE. 150 miles from St Louis. Long drive for most teams.
2) The locals fear of competition. Anyone who wore a jersey instantly scared the hell out of anyone who lived in town. They simply refused to play because they'd get shot every game ( :tard: ).
3) The teams who did come wanted ridiculous prizes. I actually had a three man team ask why I wasn't giving away three Alias Timmys for first place instead of a "crappy" trophy and $200 (Never mind that the entry fee was almost nothing. Total cost to play was $20 per man plus paint, five games guaranteed).
4) We didn't tolerate cheating. Period. I posted the rules on the website and had three copies go out with every entry packet. They all knew what the rules were, and so did the refs. When a call went down that they didn't like, they screamed at me and I backed the ref's call, good or bad. One team did the "We're never coming back, we want our money back." thing, and I told them to walk. They shut up and played by the rules for the rest of the event. Didn't come back though.

I get the feeling that I'm just too damned grumpy to deal with the public in general. Best to leave me in the machine shop all by myself with the whirrr of cutting tools.

Thats interesting. Similar events, differing results. Must be something in the nuances.

[RogueFactor]

why can't there be people like you around my area, someone who is willing to put on a small local tourney...I'm not even interested in $$ prizes. It'd just be cool to enter and have some fun, and for $20 per man?! I pay that much to play at our fields anyways.

Rogue, how long ago was the tourney you mentioned, and are there plans to have it again? :shooting:

It was a few years ago(2?). It was held at Jungle Islands sister field(Adrenaline?), which has since closed and combined with Jungle Island.

I dont really know if its still being held. I helped to learn some of the in's & outs of the scene, see what the pitfalls were, etc. I think the guys who held it have since disbanded. They only did it to finance playing in regional tournaments.

[Old S.O.B.]

Here's what I'm not getting tho - IF the series are loosing money like I have been told, it seems to me a bad deal for companies that are sponsoring teams to also be bailing out the series the teams are playing in, at the same time.
Here's to hoping they both are in a financial death spiral :cheers:

Then, while the major series are cracking, the revolution could start. Not at the top, but at lower divisions at least a rung or two (or three) down. Write the "pros" and almost pros off the list. The lower divisions get the shaft more often than most, and spend a lot of time and money for that privilege. Not all of them are that dumb. They realize it's the only game in town. Now, if the carrot were big enough, you could bring them in. You wouldn't need 'em all or even half. Just enough to fly under the radar.


The revolution has to be grass roots. Its gotta start at the lower middle to bottom. It has to cover several regions with a unified plan of attack and some kind of playoff/championship structure unique and/or interesting. It has to put integrity into the game. It has to offer what the current status quo does not.


We must unite...

We must dissent...

Here's the problem ... or a key part of it, anyway: While you are all correct in theory, the fact is that the established "Good 'Ol Boy" network is already very well entrenched and they own their teams - either outright or through their sponsorship and the threat of taking that sponsorship away.

Peer pressure is huge among teams and is also a serious problem that needs to be overcome. If you find a couple key teams that will buck the system and stick with you, others will follow. But, don't expect a huge turnout.

What PaintFest did was we had to literally bribe the teams. There was sooo much resistance and so much fear that we had to make it crazy not to attend the event. The objective of the "powers" was to insure that our event was unsuccessful. So, we had to accept what they were up to and provide so much incentive that, in spite of the threats and peer pressure, teams could not resist attending.

We also knew that the event had be flawless, because there were plenty of spys there looking for an excuse to call us a failure. And the spys latched on to the insurance company's mistake with the "Million Dollar" contest, because it was the only flaw in our event.

A revolution is a tough sell. Like Steve said, the NPPL was the closest we ever came to a revolution. That happened because the discontent was total. All the teams were fed up. But, the teams quit the fight before the war was won. Starting the NPPL was just the beginning. The teams went back to playing ball and had no desire to maintain a vigilant watch over the politics. Gradually, the "powers" inched their way into the rules committees and meetings, until they had a majority. While the foreplay took a while, the take over was swift. Steve and I and a few others were made to look like crazy conspiracy theorists. It was hard to hold a debate. People would agree with you in a one on one sit-down. But, when you got to the meetings for a vote, they did a complete 180 or they didn't show up.

People understood Steve's theories and goals. But, they were being convinced by others that it was "pie in the sky" and they were afraid to speak up in support of our ideas, when they stood in front of other teams with different agendas.

This revolution idea goes deeper than the teams. You have to trust your compadres. You need your sponsors, suppliers, judges and key teams all on board before you announce anything. If you can get them under contract - all the better. There will be leaks and spys - count on it! You need a solid plan and then you need a trusted team that shares your vision. They need to know the risk and be willing to take it.

They also need to be willing to accept a loss to establish a reputation. Not that there will be a loss. But, the fear of lossing money can't stop you, or you are done before you start. Right up to the end people thought we were going to short change PaintFest. But, we didn't. We knew what we were up against and we knew we would lose money. But, that's what it took. We proved our point and everyone got what they wanted from the event. Even then, it was not enough. In spite of the fact that after the event proved worthy of all the hype and the reviews were all good - the event, the format, the TV coverage was all good and everyone got paid top dollar, we still never put on another event. Like Steve said, 2 weeks later nobody returned our calls. The "'Ol Boys" succeeded in destroying yet another great potential for paintball.

The group here discussing this is a group of smart individuals with an eye towards achieving good things. But, we are a minority. Most people don't share our vision and don't like politics and most are afraid to fail. Statistically, only 1 in 20 is a natural leader. The other 19 have to be convinced. It's no different with labor unions or any other organized effort to self govern or stand up for the right to be heard. It's a very tough sell and you need more than talk to get it done. All the commitment and planning can't sustain a fight against big money, unless you can take that money out of the equasion with a strong determined group behind you and the independence to go it alone without the guarantee of cashing in big. Even with all that confidence, you can still fail - and that fear is what steals away your supporters, when you least expect them to disappear.

Hell, there could already be someone on this discussion board with alterior motives, or who is reporting to someone else that does not sympathise with any hypothesis to clean up the game or create a sport.

But, again, I digress and I'm babbling. Time for some shut-eye.

[CoolHand]

Thats interesting. Similar events, differing results. Must be something in the nuances.

I think it's mostly the demographics around here.

Very poor county (Maries County is the poorest in Missouri), with no fields for nearly a hundred miles in any direction.

The locals said they wanted something like this, so I put it on, and then they shat themselves and ran away like little girls.

[punkncat]

The locals said they wanted something like this, so I put it on, and then they shat themselves and ran away like little girls.


Might I suggest that the reason they took off was the fear of the "guys in jerseys".

Perhaps what they were looking for was a game with a bunch of other "backyard" gamers like themselves. Somewhere they could compete with folks of their same experiance and skill level w/o having to get shot up by the "pros".

Or perhaps they were just blowing smoke out their pieholes.

Sorry to hear about your bad experiance with that.

[zorrotmm]

Might I suggest that the reason they took off was the fear of the "guys in jerseys".

Perhaps what they were looking for was a game with a bunch of other "backyard" gamers like themselves. Somewhere they could compete with folks of their same experiance and skill level w/o having to get shot up by the "pros".

Or perhaps they were just blowing smoke out their pieholes.

Sorry to hear about your bad experiance with that.

I agree. I don't mean to criticize, and it sounds like you did the best you could given the situation (I had a very similar incident last year, trust me), but just as I was saying we don't need the pros, we also don't need the wanna be pros. The common theme I see here is "big money owns the teams". So why pander to the current teams? If someone starts a fresh movement, it would only make sense to start with fresh troops. Most field owners I've talked to mention that hardcore "tourney" players only make up about 10% of fieldgoers, and recball pays the bills. I'm willing to bet they would play tourney if it was fair, and less expensive. When starting a new series or league, reach out to the 'locals' that would play more, but don't want to get destroyed, don't want to pay huge entry fees, and aren't concerned about winning Egos. I wouldn't even go out of my way to invite established, sponsored tourney teams. A ground swell of new blood would do far more good than trying to pacify any tourney teams that can't handle fair organization.

[CoolHand]

Might I suggest that the reason they took off was the fear of the "guys in jerseys".

Perhaps what they were looking for was a game with a bunch of other "backyard" gamers like themselves. Somewhere they could compete with folks of their same experiance and skill level w/o having to get shot up by the "pros".

Or perhaps they were just blowing smoke out their pieholes.

Sorry to hear about your bad experiance with that.

What they wanted, was to play like it was a tournament, but without any competition at all. Typical stuff, noobs wanting only too shoot up bigger noobs while never facing anyone with even the same level of skill. Basically, all of them were big pussies.

Every team that came and played was nothing but new guys. No one with more than a year of experience. There was one team that was pretty good, but they weren't super duper. The level of competition was such that just about anyone should have been able to at least play the game, no one got rolled.

It's a fairly typical situation in this town though. Everyone talks the talk, no one walks the walk. They're all too afraid of being made a fool of. They'd rather never make an attempt and be able to still talk about how great they are, rather than play and take the chance of losing.

At the race track we called guys like that "fender racers". They talk a hell of a race while they're setting on the fender of your car hauling trailer, but you never ever see them actually drive a car. :rolleyes:

I should have known better, I've lived in this town all my life. I guess I really wanted there to be some kind of paintball scene here, so I talked myself into making one, rather than putting on a series that had merit and would make money. Lesson learned.

[RogueFactor]

I'm not even interested in $$ prizes. It'd just be cool to enter and have some fun, and for $20 per man?! I pay that much to play at our fields anyways.

It was even fun for the refs. Ive never forgotten one event where a father played with his 2 sons. One was older (~12-13) the other was maybe 8 or 9. It was do damn funny, and cool all at the same time---the 8-9 year old was padded up like the kid in A Christmas Story where he couldnt bend his arms---damn near the Stay-Puffed Marshmellow man :rofl: He couldnt run, only wabble, and had the full protective JT Mask-Helmet. Whenever I get into a heated situation on the field, I think of that kid, and it reminds me what the game is really all about. :D

CoolHand: It will be nice then when you have your new field on your own land. Do you think youll try again when you get it all decked out?

[CoolHand]

CoolHand: It will be nice then when you have your new field on your own land. Do you think youll try again when you get it all decked out?

I dunno. I hadn't really thought about it to tell you the truth. We're pretty much self sufficient, so it wouldn't be much for overhead this time, and we could leave the field up at night to do a two day.

It would be cool, but by and large, things haven't really changed around here. Things never really change much around here actually. It's good and it's bad.

That's a bridge I'll cross when I come to it. I've got so much to do between now and then I can't even think of it all right now. I do look forward to having a permanent place to play though.

[punkncat]

That's a bridge I'll cross when I come to it. I've got so much to do between now and then I can't even think of it all right now. I do look forward to having a permanent place to play though.



It is really nice to have a place to come back to and play any time you want or weather permits. According to what you expect from it and how much you want to put into it.

I have been blessed with having a good friend who has the best woods field I have ever played as his back yard. It's where I first played. We have worked on this place for many years and each year it get a bit better. Of course we are a bit biased....

[Aggravated Assault]

we don't need the pros, we also don't need the wanna be pros. The common theme I see here is "big money owns the teams". So why pander to the current teams? If someone starts a fresh movement, it would only make sense to start with fresh troops.


And the ones who are fed up with the scene and/or want to participate but are turned off by it. :)

Location would be real important. Certain areas seem to come and go in regards to a good tournament series. Some have well established ones. Find that location/time where there are enough players and teams, but a shortage of good events. Pick the battlefield carefully and not in the enemies backyard.

I've been thinking that a slightly different "tournament" structure could be key also. The majority of events, or series of events that I see, are set up the same way they been doing it for years. Somehow structure things where you dont have to go head to head with everyone else doing things the same way. Build the better mousetrap by building a different one.

[RogueFactor]

And the ones who are fed up with the scene and/or want to participate but are turned off by it. :)

Location would be real important. Certain areas seem to come and go in regards to a good tournament series. Some have well established ones. Find that location/time where there are enough players and teams, but a shortage of good events. Pick the battlefield carefully and not in the enemies backyard.

I've been thinking that a slightly different "tournament" structure could be key also. The majority of events, or series of events that I see, are set up the same way they been doing it for years. Somehow structure things where you dont have to go head to head with everyone else doing things the same way. Build the better mousetrap by building a different one.

Rabid is right though. It really comes down to cash. You either gotta have it, or have access to it to beat the big dudes.

[rabidchihauhau]

OR

you could get something going with a membership organization that stresses fairness/honesty/sportsmanship/responsibility etc.

That will take way too long though.

I still hold out hope that companies like summit partners, K2, Imperial Cap. Corp, Angelo Gordon, etc., will recognize that a real sport will be a benefit to their businesses and will do what is necessary to build such a thing;

on the othre hand, I look at some of the people who still work with and for those companies and I realize that my hopes are probably unfounded.

This "sport" is NEVER going to rise to the level of anything respectable, or serious. If you're doing anything other than playing for the hell of it, you're wasting your money, your emotion and, probably, your soul, if there is such a thing...