****Superbolts are Being RECALLED****

[AGD]

Superbolt Owners,

All Superbolts are being recalled IMMEDIATELY!! Do NOT continue to use the bolt in any way and remove it from your marker NOW! Ship it with your name address and phone number and the place you purchased the bolt, clearly printed on a separate piece of paper inside the box.

Airgun Designs will at it's discretion either replace the defective part on your bolt or give you a refund. Please allow up to four weeks for a resolution.

Continuing to use the product can lead to a dangerous failure and cause serious injury or death.

Mail the bolts to:

Airgun Designs
804 Seton Ct.
Wheeling, IL 60090

[irbodden]

Too bad it had to come to this, but I think its a wise move, and EVERYONE should send their Superbolt in. Working or not!

[XspyX]

DEATH!

Please explain how this could cause death. I am curious to know. Sounds pretty bad though. :(

[jah871]

since they are crackiing apart inside maybe a piece of it could be shot out and could hit someone.

[irbodden]

Originally posted by XspyX
DEATH!

Please explain how this could cause death. I am curious to know. Sounds pretty bad though. :(

Hey, its possible, any projectile flying at 300 fps can cause injury, in a freak case ofcourse. An example could be the little league boy who was hit with a baseball and than his heart quit working. :( Luckily a police officer there with those electric shocking paddles brought his heart beat back.

[AngelBoy]

It could cause death by one of them breaking and then messing up the mag, and then the owner could have a heart attack and die.

[IceCool32]

Wow Angelboy, that was completly un-called for and immature.

[aNtHrAx323]

It could kill someone when the little rod in the center shoots out (as one or two people have reported). At about 200 miles per hour (or 300 fps), that's about as good as a bullet. I'm glad to see that action is being taken so quickly. I love AGD even more :)

[BTAutoMag]

i wonder if the ref would count it as a "bounce shot":rolleyes:

[nutz]

its sad that things like this happen, but we dont live in a perfect world

[BONESisAgod]

I think that 1 major thing that made tom decide to recall was in a former thread (My Superbolt broke!?!) I said i was hit by the inner part of the bolt (round thing that hits the ball and the steel stick). If you are wondering if these things could kill its easy to see, just look at my shoulder. If i had my cam with me i would show the damage (bruse and small flesh wound). Good call Tom, I was hit less than a foot from my throat and eyes. VERY SMART!!!

[OhMyAMoose]

It could make someones heart stop working because of the shock of their mag breaking. Most people never see their mag break down :-)

[BONESisAgod]

it kind of feels like pumping a pellet gun up to about 20 pumps and shooting yourself in the arm from point blank. Trust me, it isnt pleasent. Plus, If it were someone else instead of me, there may have been a lawsuit. But im not doin anything that would put AGD in jeapordy of going out of business. ROCK ON TOM!!! By the way, try titanium instead of steel for a superbolt. Its 3 times stronger than steel with less than half the weight.

[adlar]

Haven't had a problem, but I've been using plastic nubbins. Are these other people using the metal ones? Anyone else that got their superbolt at the tech class/tour have any problems yet? Just curious.

[MINIMAGMAN]

wow tom your company could be in some serious trouble... did you have a patent on the superbolt?

[manike]

Hey Bones, I have a titanium mag bolt made back in the days of Venom and Toxic Toys. It is much lighter than the stock bolt. They used to make one with a delrin main part and a titanium edge but I had one and it came apart. This one looks much better but has never seen any use.

I say make the bolt from titanium with an aluminium sleeve to fit different sized breeched/barrels... :) Match your bolt to your barrel to your paint... how long will it take SP to patent that idea lol :) You could have colour coded sleeves that match barrel bore diameters... Wouldn't be fun to change them though... Maybe you could buy a whole set of bolts?

manike

[Butterfingers]

I heard somthing in the past about titanium bolts for mags being too brittle. Bits and peices flake off from use.
Sure its stronger and harder than steel but steel is more maliable and shear resistant.

Cost is also an issue. Macining tiatnium is difficult and wears away machines. It probably would cost $100 or more for a bolt, which is is more than alot of us are willing to pay.

[iisp0tii]

Thats really sux. especially for eveyone who wants the new z-grip, it lokks like they will have to wait alot longer for that.:(

[AngelBoy]

How was that bein immature and uncalled for? I believe 2 other people something like that too. But anyways, back to the subject, I'm glad Tom is doin this now before somethin really bad happened.

[BONESisAgod]

exactly, but i had never heard of anyone shooting out the metal tube inside the bolt. The only thing that saved me from a puncture wound was the thing on the tip of the bolt. Im just glad i was the one hit and not someone with a good lawyer, lol

[PRO_Ski101]

Just wondering,Ill send it back just incase but EVERY super bolt needs to be sent in or just the resent ones?I boughtmine around 3-4 weeks ago.Also whats wrong with them?

[BONESisAgod]

maybe a good super bolt could be made from like an aluminium bolt that is cased in carbide. Or even fiberglass coated in stainless...

[BONESisAgod]

Pro, they are fallin apart without warning and in some freak cases they are shooting delrin and steel at 300fps. I dont know about anyone else but i got hit.

[toymyster]

Calm down everyone!!! AGD was experimenting with new technology, and when you do that, things like this happen!! This is not a big deal, it is one setback in a string of how many successes??? Besides, this after all is why we are here!! To test the cool new stuff, and see what works!!! This is a classic example of what works in a lab, does not necessarily work in the real world!!! Keep up the good work, Tom!!!!

[rhetor22]

Sorry to hear you are recalling the bolts, but it was a very wise thing to do. I just had a question with the bolt pieces flying out the barrel, (happened on the stingray once, connecting rod broke) Did this happened WITH a paintball in the breech or without?

BoneIsAGod, were you the one firing the gun (i sure hope not if it was pointed at ur shoulder) or was it shot by some one else in a game of paintball?

You shouldn't under estimate the greatness of stainless steel. I'm sure Tom is using only the highest quality of steel, and stainless is SOME SUPER STUFF. Great metal.

[PRO_Ski101]

Ok i got it,I just got 1 question,"and the place you purchased the bolt",what does that mean.it mean if u oreser it from the AGD online store to say that or what?

[tranman]

If you think about it, some of us AOers could have been a little bit responsible for this. I say this because we here at AO had been pushing AGD to release the superbolt ASAP. The pressure on Tom and others at AGD may have led them to release the bolt before they could do proper testing in all possible conditions the bolt would go through. Some of us AOers should learn to be a bit more patient...well that is my take on this subject its not a flame to anyone. I dont own a superbolt but probably will when they work things out.

[AGD]

Bones,

You need to make sure the guy that shot you with the bolt sends both pieces back to us for examination.

Everyone else say where you bought it even if it was AGD.

AGD

[toymyster]

Tranman, you do have a point!!! I agree!!! We were the ones begging to get the bolt!! Now we can not say "AGD released a piece of crap", it's all of course, academic at this point, but maybe in the future, we can restrain ourselves and let new product development take it's course, however slow it may seem to us!!!!

[BONESisAgod]

If im not mistakin he threw it away, but i dont know. If he still has it i will have him send it in, and if he did throw it away, i will draw a crude pic of what it looked like.

[emaguser18]

the first shot I took totally cracked my bolt right down the side and the head(top 1/3 inch or so) shot right out. seeing as how I was at work at the time, I promptly called my manager and returned the bolt to store, the very place I was working at I might add. should I have the store send it back then???? O well, no hard feelings towards AGD. i love my E-Mag and my Flatline HPA system......... that one shot was very sweet i must say. no kick at all.........

[Darth Bagel]

bones i gotta ask, were you out?:D

[BONESisAgod]

yea, i was out, the bolt was following a ball in the air. But to stay on the humerouse side, Tom, maybe you should start making paint in the shape of the insides of the bolts, those things are accurate!

[Minimag4me]

fine i will send it back, i only dry fired anyway

do i have to send back the plastic nubbins and bolt spring too?

[magman007]

THank god that tom is stil R&Ding the 4.5 k flatlines, when i herd REG Seat Problem i was lik Ok....thats not good

[marc]

stupid question but wouldnt that break the paint in the marker.

[damageinc54]

Originally posted by tranman
If you think about it, some of us AOers could have been a little bit responsible for this. I say this because we here at AO had been pushing AGD to release the superbolt ASAP. The pressure on Tom and others at AGD may have led them to release the bolt before they could do proper testing in all possible conditions the bolt would go through. Some of us AOers should learn to be a bit more patient...well that is my take on this subject its not a flame to anyone. I dont own a superbolt but probably will when they work things out.

Give me a break! We are "a little bit" responsible for cracked superbolts??? We did not design, engineer, manufacture, and release the superbolt. How did we push AGD into anything? They did not have to release anything until they knew 100% that it was a good working product. It is their responsibility to do the proper tests on their products. We are not their testing dummies. We are their customers. I am glad that they are recalling the bolt because I was not even using mine once all of the broken superbolt threads started showing up. I really do not think they had any choice but to recall them before somebody got hurt buy one. That would not be a pretty situation for AGD. I will not be at all surprised to see all of us get refunds. I do not think that we will see the superbolts again for a long time, if at all.

[Bonx0007]

This recall is a demonstration of AGD's great costumer service. Now everyone who gets a refund will have to double that money and just buy a intelli z-grip when they come out.

[shartley]

Some of you fellow AO’ers just baffle me.

As was stated, no standard member on AO is responsible for “pushing” a product out before it is ready. That is a decision made by AGD. So any problems a product has are DIRECTLY caused by the company, NOT a bunch of people on a Paintball Forum. Let’s be real about this. You want to give credit for “good” things where it is due, do the same for “bad” things. The consumer is NEVER at fault for a bad product… period.

As was stated, AO’ers are NOT “test dummies” for AGD. And you NEVER use your customers as such. Anyone thinking that AO’ers ARE, has gotten caught up in Tom’s “Poll the AO Folks” mentality for decision making. It is one thing using AO as a sounding board and “watching” your demographic (or a small portion of it), it is another to use them to actually help determine decisions a company makes. I have said this before.. but it is unpopular to do so.

And how the heck would a “recall” be a demonstration of great customer service? Those who have put the extra twist that this recall indicates something “better” about AGD are being silly. Recalls indicate a PROBLEM, not a company doing something “noble” or “great”. Recalls are to protect the customer, yes, but it is also to protect the company. When my van got a recall notice for its windshield wipers I did not say to myself, “Wow, Dodge is sure a great company. What outstanding customer service!” I still like the company, but know that recalls are not a “good” thing, they are because someone made a mistake and the company is trying to rectify it, and before serious damage is done… nothing more, nothing less.

And what is up with the mentality that bad products are to be expected because they are going through a development phase? Wow, this is not Microsoft…. It is a product that falls into quite a different level of expectation and requirements. I “never” buy a product “expecting” it to be bad because it is “new”, and if it “does” have a problem I don’t pass it off as “nice try, get it right next time”. If you expect products to be bad when first released to the public, you would also expect only fools to actually buy the product.. right? Why would anyone with half a brain buy a product knowing it will be less than acceptable quality?

Do recalls happen? YES. Are they a bad thing? YES. Do they happen to good people and good companies? YES. Is the recall an indication of superior service? NO. Why can’t people just call it like it is? No sugar coating, no blame passing, no “company worship” or “owner worship”, etc. This too shall pass, and it is not the end of the world. But nothing about it was “good”. Sorry.

The only thing remotely “good” about this is that hopefully the recall will prevent further injury, and potentially serious problems for AGD and its customers. But that is not something to pat Tom on the back for either. He is simply cleaning up a mess, and one that AGD is directly responsible for making. This is not a “slam” on AGD…. It is simply the truth.

I was not even going to comment one way or the other about the Super-Bolt issue, but it is impossible not to when the delusion factor gets so pumped up. On the field, we have a “Paint Check”… every once and a while on AO we need a “Reality Check”.

[Cha0tic]

i am 100% with shartley on this. in no way is the consumer responsible for flaws in the design of a manufacturers product. this is also not a sign of AGD's great customer service. this is a problem with AGD that is trying to be resolved. AGD is making a recall to save their own butts. if they did not do they recall, they could be sued by some kid that shoots himself with the tip of a superbolt. i am glad the recall is happening, but in no way happy that there should be a reason to recall in the first place.

AGD, i know that you try to get products out to us quickly. i also know that you haven't done extensive testing on the superbolt. you have stated this in a previous post. (i can find the link if necessary). i think AGD should do more extensive testing to ensure that recalls do not have to take place.

[tremis]

Just to add a few things, The "metal tube" in the middle od the bolt is the power piston. Titanium is not three times stronger than steel, its not even as strong as steel. And when/if the power piston shot out the gun, it wasn't at 300fps. It weighs a whole lot more than a ball. You guys could always try those Venom bolts. They were lighter.

Tremis

[sifu01]

I love my mag and look forward to upgrades but....Makes me wonder why there was not better testing done on this product. I am mad to say the least. I think the bolt was rushed and not thoroughly tested. I am glad it was recalled to help avoid injury.

[PRO_Ski101]

No critisism or ANYTHING i'm just dissapointed that i gotta send my bolt back because i've played MANY games and i haven't even seen a TINY ITSEBITSY crack but i'll do as AGD says just cuz they know best.well PEACE

[OhMyAMoose]

I dont want to sound like an *** or anything but did ADG test the product much to make sure it was safe for use? It seems like all these people's bolts have broke w/ less than 2000 shots. I would think that ADG would have tested and found out this problem. I would think that they would have shot like 10,000 rounds of paint or at least cycled the gun that many times to test it. And we are not out to test these products for ADG if we buy them. Now if they were to send out some to the public for free to test them it would be a different story. This is kind of sad that this product failed but if I ever get an other paintgun (mine was stolen) I am sure it will be another mag. I think ADG learned a good lesson on this one and I am sure everything else will work great.

[MINIMAGMAN]

i agree with some parts moose said... except that ADG (AIR DESIGNS GUN) should be AGD............................... how was your gun stolen btw? NEVER leave your gun out in the open! always lock your things up when your away from the rest area

[VELOCEMAG]

Sorry to here this Tom. I didn't even get to try mine out yet. Should we return the nubbins and the spring also? Ts there any department we should make it attention to? I hope the bolt is released with the problems fixed.

[Dragoon]

Too bad...

I was enjoying the bolt in my Emag.

As for the comments about not patting AGD on the back for the recall. Keep in mind the costs associated with the recall. I have my own manufacturing business. As a business owner I would pat Tom on the back for having the balls to initiate a recall. AGD is not a huge company that can absorb a lot of costs in a short period of time. A less scrupulous owner may have just stopped production but ignored the sold bolts. I think the recall reveals a strength of character and dedication to the end consumer.

That being said, the recall itself is not a 'good' thing.

Douglas Colman

[the123]

THe superbolt has been being tested for months, ask BlackVCG, RobAGD and others.. Although I think there was 1 change from that version of the bolt to the version being recalled. From a conversation with Tom at the IAO, I remember him saying the bolt was a great item that would just eventually wear out. At the time he was still trying to figure out how to use replaceable sleeves. All the bolts to date had been machined and pressed on. If the bolts couldn't have replaceable sleeves, they would just be throw away. This was not the type of image AGD wanted.
Maybe a few more months of testing the production removable sleeve was in order.
As for using us AOers as testers. I LOVE it!! Tom, if you ever need ANYTHING field tested, i'm your man. :)

[BlackVCG]

Good post Dragoon.

As for sending your bolts back. Send JUST the bolt. That's all they need. There's only a recall on the bolt, so keep your plastic nubbins and bolt spring.

[damageinc54]

Originally posted by Dragoon
Too bad...

I was enjoying the bolt in my Emag.

As for the comments about not patting AGD on the back for the recall. Keep in mind the costs associated with the recall. I have my own manufacturing business. As a business owner I would pat Tom on the back for having the balls to initiate a recall. AGD is not a huge company that can absorb a lot of costs in a short period of time. A less scrupulous owner may have just stopped production but ignored the sold bolts. I think the recall reveals a strength of character and dedication to the end consumer.

That being said, the recall itself is not a 'good' thing.

Douglas Colman

First off I agree 110% with what Shartly wrote. Some of you are under the "AGD SPELL" so badly that it is sickening!!! I support their products but let's call a spade a spade. They messed something up here!!! They are big boys and they are ultimately responsible for their mistakes. Even the almighty AGD can make a mistake and here it is staring you in the face. Some of you need to come off of cloud nine and accept that. Who really cares about the costs incurred by AGD because of this recall? I care about personal safety and the safety of my team mates, not the cost to poor old AGD. AGD had NO CHOICE but to recall the bolts. Have any of you even been involved in a personal injury lawsuit? If you want to see how quickly a small business can go under just go to any court room and sit in a personal injury case. AGD knows the damage that could have been caused and that is why they are now trying to get the bolt off of the market. The cost to AGD to recall the bolt is nickel and dime compared to the cost of a personal injury lawsuit. What about the cost to us? Each one of us has spent up to 50.00 a piece on an unusable and unsafe product. Now we have to incur the cost and inconvenience of shipping it back to them. Are we going to get reimbursed for our cost of shipping? I doubt it.

[LaW]

shipping would cost less then 1 dollar by sending it in a padded envelope through the mail...don't even wine about that.

[Dragoon]

damageinc54,

Since you quoted me I feel I have to respond. No, I don't think I'm under a spell. I do not think the recall is a good thing. I think making the decision was a bold step for a small company. And you always have a choice. You can choose to do nothing, to go bankrupt, to play the odds of a future lawsuit. Also, these nickel and dimes as you call them, can bankrupt a company just as much as a large lawsuit.

Douglas.

[damageinc54]

A bold step? To avaoid a costly court case that would close their doors. It is not a bold step. They are saving their behinds. Get real, do you really think this recall would bankruprt them? :rolleyes: Judgeing by what I saw of their facility at the tour I believe they are more than equiped to handle this recall.

[irbodden]

Shartley and Damageinc are speaking the truth guys. If anything we HELPED AGD by discovering the problem before the typical Joe could by them in his local paintball store. If this recall didn't happen, too many would have gotten out to guys who DON'T visit AO. There would be no way to get ahold of the masses, and it would have been a REAL problem.

[Muzikman]

I am curious, how many bolts where sold? I can't imagine that it was that many. This problem was caught pretty early on.

Are recalls a bad thing? Certainly. Is this going to send AGD to the poor house? I doubt it.

[marc]

Before I say anything this is all my opinoin or what I think. And second of all I am impressed how fast word is getting around, my local paintball store called me up (and Im sure others) and told me about the superbolt problem (eventhough I already knew about it because of this great forum), just because I had said I wanted to get one and probably would. I think that this is AGDs problem, but it it is very hard to stop these things from happening no matter how much testing. And as far as I know the bolt breaking is a freak akident. Secondly, this will not stop me from buying any of AGDs products, it is not like it is the first paintball company that recalled something. PMI just recently recalled the traccers. And i was just wondering if the cutting of the superbolts down had anything to do with it. Every one who has read this just remember i know i dont know what i am talking about these are just sugjestions to help even though im sure AGD has though of all of them and more.

[marc]

O no dont even say bankrupt and AGD in the same sentence unlise it is AGD will never go bankrupt. First I really dont think and hope AGD will go bankrupt. Secondly, I am gana buy as much agd stuff as i can affort to make sure it doesnt (not that wanting the stuff didnt stop me from buying it) AGD fixes has fixed my gun when they shouldnt have, and i consider that a favor, and Tom if you need any help with this or are starting to go under (which i doubt will happen) Ill be glad to empty my piggy bank for you.

[Dragoon]

Damageinc54,

You are giving the consumer point of view. And rightly so. After all we are all consumers of AGD products. I'm just stating my opinion from the business point of view. I don't think this would have been an easy decision for AGD. Given my business history (not always a smooth one :( ) I can empathize with the decision.

That's all from me on this subject. See you all around the boards.

Douglas.

[damageinc54]

Dragoon, I agree with your business perspective that this was probably not an easy decision for AGD. It was however the right thing for them to do. For the safety of the customer and for the future of their business. I support AGD's products 100%. Just look at my sig. All I have are AGD products! I will use a little more caution before I buy a newly released product before I jump in and buy it though. I just have to wonder what has happened here. Something had to go seriously wrong somewhere for the quick failure of the bolts. From what I have read here all of the broken bolts happened the first time they were used. I do not believe that AGD rushed the bolts out without the proper testing. That is not their style. Just look at the 4500 Flatline. They delayed it to make sure they put it out in the best possible working condition. I believe that team Swarm was even using the bolts in their mags at the last CPSA tournament here in Chicago. I believe that something had to have gone wrong in the mixture of the delrin or in the manufacturing process to have such a quick failure. In the end I hope that they can fix whatever the problem is and get them back to us as soon as it is safely possible.

[Flamebo]

might wanna sticky this and/or put it on the front page...

[Omicron]

Minimagman....Thats just not funny.

[MINIMAGMAN]

yeah lol i forgot to add in the masks and jerseys to make it look real :)

cmon noone can take a joke

[Minimag4me]

i found that kinda funny,

I guess AGD does really make nailguns, haha.

[AGD]

Minimagman,

I would really appreciate it if you would delete that post. This is a very serious subject which does not deserve comedic displays. If you all keep this up it will spiral out of control and you will see 1000 post threads on PBnation about how mags suck and everyone on AO are idiots.


Everyone else,

If you all want to contribute to solving this problem you can stop speculating and doing what if's and wait until we get some facts.

AGD

[shartley]

Agreed.. on BOTH points.

[MINIMAGMAN]

k only for you Tom, and maybe a really hot chick :P but noone else! mags wont get a bad rep, they've been around too long and have too much of a good rep to receive a bad one, but i understand... :mad: :rolleyes: :cool: :eek: :confused: :o :D

[marc]

Just a though but mabye there they were all apart of a bad batch that agd didnt check. Like mabye it didnt harden enough or something. Just a thought.

[marc]

Never mind what I just said, I need more sleep and cant think clearly, Im sure AGD knows what its doing, and Im just a person giving them useless sugjestions that they already thought of probably. So I just wana say that im stupid, need to go to bed, and sorry if I upset anyone

[KayleAGD]

I think if you notice there is two different problems with the bolts. First there was the delrin cracking around the end of the bolt face and shooting out. This would mainly cause paint breakage but I don't believe the delrin would come out the barrel very fast. Second is the problem with the bolt Bones was referring to. The superbolts were made with the same process as the regular bolts. The power piston is welded to the outside shell (with some kind of secret elf process). I have seen bolts come apart like this before but never shot out of the gun. Usually the piston moves forward and this causes bolt stick.
In defense of AGD there have been more problems with aftermarket bolts than with the AGD bolts. Many ANS bolts have broken welds too , only thing nobody on this forum got hit by one.

Kayle Malcom

[justinellery]

After careful examination of the picture I would have to say the accident is caused by an incorrect mixture of the alloy used, just kidding:D ,not sure AGD will learn much from the pic though....I wonder how many times crazy stuff like this has happened in the paintball world and yet the game still exists today. AGD will overcome this trial also.

[MINIMAGMAN]

actually i dont think those kind of accidents happen all too often, from what i know i dont think anyone has died while playing paintball as a result from a gun problem?

[tremis]

Your right. Nobody has died. That doesnt mean the this type of failure hasnt occured before. And some aftermarket bolts are made of some pretty lousy materials. The pro team bolts are horrible in my experiance and I have heard bad things about the ANS. If somebody told me that one of those failed, I'd say " hmmm, figures". I saw a pro team bolt that had no flange on it. I dont know how it happened but it looked like it had been chewed off by a one tooth beaver. I know that their flange is very soft and the sear will screw it up, but this one was gone. Somebody returned it to the PTP booth at IAO 98 I believe. It very well could have been shot out the end. If so though, it wouldnt have been going very fast. A super light paintball only goes 300 fps, that heavy thing wouldnt go near as fast. Not like the time I disassembled a AA nitro system while it was full. The reg nut and spring pack went through my sheetrock ceiling, the piston hit a stud and shot back at the floor. Dont ask me why I did this, it was just stupid. I didnt know what I was doing back then and the guage said zero. This was back before you could buy an N2 system, it was a prototype that AA had sent to Mr paintball in San Diego. They sent a few there to see if there were any Hot weather problems, of course there were none, othere than idiots wanting to see if the inside looked like their mag. :rolleyes: Anyway I havent seen a superbolt, but I have heard that the power piston is attached via the same method as a regular bolt. I think the concern is about shooting derlin out the barrel. I cant fathom the power piston coming loose and shooting out like that. Their normal bolt have been so thouroughly used and it never saw it happened to them. For that matter I never saw it happen to a superbolt either. And from what I can tell nobody will see any proof, since the evidence has been disposed of. But then again everybody at home always accuses me of thinking everything is some sort of conspiracy. But, if somebody at a rival manufacturer was behind the whole power piston being shot out story, I wouldn't be suprised. Now I'm not saying that the artist kid that got shot with it is lying, but I always ask myself, when I hear a peice of information " who benifits from this?" usually the answer of that question determines how valid I hold that info. Now, this is a little harder in PB since in my 12 years of playing I have never met more narrow minded group of people in my life. No disrespect intended, but you all have seen the people that will put down anything they dont own or any team they arent on or any player who isnt them. And our beloved sport seems to have a disproportionate amout of these types. So sometimes the misinformation that spreads isnt to benefit someone but to just put somebody else down. Again I'm not saying that this kid was lying, I just haven't made up my mind as to whether or not I am going to believe him. Believe me I am treating no different than anything else I hear. I would be very interested to hear from Tom as to whether he feels there is a problem with the method of attaching the power piston to the body ot the bolt. Since they aren't recalling every bolt they have ever made, I doubt thats it. I got my first mag in 93' and it has the same foamy bolt in it that it cam with. It still looks and works great, I have a hard time believing that AGDs bolts have this problem. My second mag went throug two PTP bolts in one summer, those I would believe. Now as for the derlin, I have no first hand knowledge, but it seems to me that this is the only concern. I think I just convinced myself that until I either see the bolt with the power piston that was shot out or I hear from what I consider a reliable source that it happened, I am going to discount the story as false. Now I am not saying that is IS false, just that I belive it to be false. I used to belive in santa too. As it turns out, some things I belive/dont belive are sometimes wrong. Oh god, I have rambled on for a looong time, sorry.

Tremis

[Temo Vryce]

Now some of you have said that Tom may have rushed through the testing of the new Supper bolts. Personally I can't see that happening. Everything I have ever read about Tom and AGD is that they do the work required before sending out a product. The testing was done, you can count on that, but it was done in a controlled environment. A perfect world if you will. The paintball field we play in is not a perfect world. Something may pass all the test in a lab but fail on the field. That Murphy's law. Secondly some of you are blaming AGD for the problems when you don't even know why the bolts failed. Hey it may have been poor design or poor manufacturing. Or it might have been bad materials and that would make it not Tom's fault. I don't know who is ultimately to blame here. I just know that Tom is doing what needs to be done by issuing a recall. Some say he's doing to protect us, other say he's protecting himself. Me, I say he's doing both. AGD produced a bad product, and now they are paying the piper. We aren't here to judge whether it's Tom's fault or not. We aren't here to judge if he's protecting his but or ours with this recall. We are here to talk about Paintball, share ideas, meet new people and help Tom when he needs our help. We aren't to blame for pushing Tom to ship the bolt too soon because if Tom didn't feel they were ready to ship he wouldn't have shipped them. A few of them broke and now they are being recalled. Any of you watch "Fight Club"? What was Edward Norton's job? He decided whether or not a fault with a car warranted a recall or not, and as he put it he worked for "one of the major companies". Now I know that is was from a movie but think about it, does that job really exist? Tom did what needed to be done. Now instead of trying to point fingers, or decided who's but he's protecting lets send in the bolts and wait patiently for Tom to let us know what went wrong with the bolts. You all know that he will.

Tom I wish you the best of luck with this problem, I hope that you can find a way to redesign the bolt so that they are strong, light and safe.

I'm sure that you have thought of this already but I will post it any ways. Have you thought of put threads on the bolt sleeves? Just an idea. Good luck with the bolts Tom. You're still number 1 with me.

[marc]

tremis, I believe you are wrong, way way long ago some one did die. It was back when masks were not always used. Dont quote me but I did do a report on paintball, and that kept on turning up, I am sure that I saw it. However, what I saw being true is another thing.

[shartley]

Wow! (about tremis’s post)

First of all, there was more than ONE complaint and report of this happening. No “evidence” has been purposely disposed of. This is NOT a conspiracy by other manufacturers or some kid(s) wanting to start problems. How anyone could even stretch a legitimate safety issue that far is beyond me. Those reporting the defect are members in good standing, and LOYAL AGD customers.

And when you say that this is a group of narrow-minded people, I hope you are talking about Paintball Players in general and not specifically those only on AO. I know for a fact that out of all the Paintball Forums out there, AO is the most open minded about other products.. hands down. And some of us are known for being open minded about ALL things. Sorry, that means that goes for products we like as well… and NO company or product is above having problems.

Furthermore, throughout that whole post I saw disclaimers stating lack of personal knowledge followed by opinions directly concerning the information commented on. What? I have not seen… but. I have only heard.. so. I don’t personally know.. however. See my point? There is nothing wrong with posting personal opinions, but it looked like a lot more was going on in that post than simply stating what you think. Lots of insinuations and borderline accusations to say the least.

I think that all came down to one thing:
I think I just convinced myself that until I either see the bolt with the power piston that was shot out or I hear from what I consider a reliable source that it happened, I am going to discount the story as false. Now I am not saying that is IS false, just that I belive it to be false. I used to belive in santa too. As it turns out, some things I belive/dont belive are sometimes wrong.In my opinion, coming from years of personal and professional experience, this is about the most narrow-minded way to look at “anything”.

I think some people need to remember that Tom actually instituted the Recall, and rightly so. I also think that some people need to read what Tom wrote and follow his recommendation: Quote from Tom
If you all want to contribute to solving this problem you can stop speculating and doing what if's and wait until we get some facts.Sounds like solid thinking to me.

Temo Vryce
I think some people are confusing what people are actually saying. Some of us who posted were commenting on the real reasons Tom did the recall… we did *not* say they were not legitimate reasons, or that any of the reasons (to include *butt covering*) were not the correct thing to do, or were bad. We were just concerned, and a bit aggravated, by an emerging attitude that the problem was anything BUT an AGD problem, and this recall was a *noble* and *grand* thing. That is just too much sugar coating for some of us. And there are others that seem to want it either one way or the other.. but it isn’t that easy.

We all wish AGD the best. But some of us know that you can’t fix anything with your head either in the clouds or up someone’s posterior region. Reality will only help solve this problem, and Tom put it very well with the quote above.

Hey, we can look at it this way.. if AO folks are used as a sounding board, and semi-testing place, the fact that AO members helped identify this problem and reported it in a timely manner is a GOOD thing. And noone should be blaming people for bringing up the issue of a bad product. And simply put, no matter WHY the product was bad (bad lot, bad mixture, bad design, etc.) it is still the same in the end. Customers bought the product, used it, and it broke. Now Tom and AGD are determining WHY.

And it actually *is* ultimately Tom’s responsibility for a bad product, even if it was caused by someone other than himself or his direct staff. That is how business works. Tom is responsible for the *good* things that AGD does, and he is also equally responsible for the bad. That is what owning a business is about. And this is not a slam on Tom, but it seems that some people think credit only works in one direction… it doesn’t.

And until Tom and AGD get a chance to figure all this out, I suggest people do as Tom asked, and stop all speculating… period. Noone is saying AGD is a bad company.

(To Tom and AO Staff: I can see no valid reason to keep this thread open. My prediction is that from this point on, it will only degradate, as we have seen it start to do. All important information has been put out, and only speculations or discussions of non-relevant topics are now happening. It is a great *Classis*… but as an active thread it may start to cause problems being counter productive to the issue at hand and to AGD and AO. Just my thoughts.)

[raehl]

Just a reminder that it mightbe a good idea to get the Superbolt "ad" on the mainpage down since they're being recalled.

On the recall itself - everyone should keep in mind that the cause of the defect in the superbolts has yet to be determined - which is probably why Tom is trying so hard to get his hands on all the failed superbolts. It may not necessarily be a design flaw - it's quite possible that there was a problem in the manufacturing process in a certain run of the bolts, or perhaps a certain group of material used by AGD on some of the bolts wasn't up to snuff. There are plenty of variables that enter in the process through design, testing and production that could cause these failures. Also note that some people seem to have used their bolts extensively without a problem - also an indication that the problem may be limitted to a certain subset of the bolts available.

So in essence, send your bolt back in and calm down until more information is available.

- Chris

[tremis]

When I was referring to narrow minded people, I was referring to paintball players in general, not specifically people here, though I am sure there are a few people like that on these boards. The reason that this is the only BB I read is because of the large amount of quality posters. (is that even the right word?) I agree that the derlin problem is a very legitimate safety concern. As far as the power piston breaking off, I am just questioning whether or not that happened. The guy who spent 50 or so bucks on it and had it break, supposedly threw it away. That is a flag for me right there. Somebody threw away a new $50 product cause it broke? And it was made by a company with great customer service? And he thought it more vuluable to throw it away than get an obvious free replacement? Sounds suspect to me. Then again I was raised to question things. If something doesnt make sense, question it, there is probably a reason it doesnt make sense. The person who told me that the super bolt piston is attached the same way as a normal bolts Piston is what I cosider a reliable source. I'll take it as the truth, this person has never told me something untrue. I cant say that for some of the people here, not that I have been misled, its just a lack of contact with you fine people has left me with no way to prove that you guys wont steer me wrong. Though I do think a number of people here are trustworthy. And I base that completly off of the things people put in their posts. The kid who said he got shot with a power piston isnt familiar to me, so I have no reason to belive things he says. I'll have to resort on whether or not it makes sense. In this case there is dubious information. Like I said, that will make me inclined to not believe him. I didnt say it wasn't the truth.Just that I dont believe it. And I never said it was a conspiracy, just that it wouldnt suprise me.
I am sure that everybody that has heard of a problem with superbolts has questioned why its doing what its doing. All I have done is question whether it is actually doing what it is thought to be doing.

Why does a shocker shoot farther than a mag? You could debate forever as to why this happens. But nobody would ever figure it out until they questioned if it actually does. Which by the way it does NOT. But I have had many a person that I dont claim to know very well,claim that shockers do shoot farther. So I just say prove it. Thats what I see here, sombody I do not know asking me to take his word that something happened that seems doubtful. I simply say prove it. But alas it was thrown away. I NEVER said purposely.

And you say that in your years of experience, its narrow minded to question things. I call it foolish to assume that everything people tell you is the truth.

I have yet to speculate what this bolts problem might be. I am just questioning if certain problems do actually exist. Its simple, question everything. If you question 1000 things that somone has told you and one time it turns out they wern't right, it would seem worth it to me, to get to the truth. When the bolt came out they said less recoil, I questioned that too. Through my thought process, its seemed reasonable and correct, so I questioned it no more. When the power piston issue seems answered I will no longer question that either. I'll still question everything else. Sorry if that upsets you, but thats the what I do in an attempt to keep the wool from in front of my eyes.

Tremis

[shartley]

tremis
Thank you for your clarification. I am glad you do not think AO’ers in general are narrow minded.

However, from your post I gather that you have never read any of my posts? This is what you write…
And you say that in your years of experience, its narrow minded to question things. I call it foolish to assume that everything people tell you is the truth.

I have yet to speculate what this bolts problem might be. I am just questioning if certain problems do actually exist. Its simple, question everything. If you question 1000 things that somone has told you and one time it turns out they wern't right, it would seem worth it to me, to get to the truth. When the bolt came out they said less recoil, I questioned that too. Through my thought process, its seemed reasonable and correct, so I questioned it no more. When the power piston issue seems answered I will no longer question that either. I'll still question everything else. Sorry if that upsets you, but thats the what I do in an attempt to keep the wool from in front of my eyes.
1) I never said it was narrow minded to question things.. quite the opposite. I said it was narrow minded to think as you did when you said….
I think I just convinced myself that until I either see the bolt with the power piston that was shot out or I hear from what I consider a reliable source that it happened, I am going to discount the story as false. Now I am not saying that is IS false, just that I belive it to be false. I used to belive in santa too. As it turns out, some things I belive/dont belive are sometimes wrong.And in fact in my other post my comment was directly linked to that statement, and nothing more.

And as you can clearly see, that has nothing to do with asking questions. It has to do with your convincing yourself of something without all the information, and making (as well as posting) opinions based only on that.

2) Anyone who even tries to make the point to me about questioning everything either has never read my posts, OR did not understand them. I am one of AO’s MOST questioning people. LOL I never take anything at face value.

And I would never get upset over people trying to pull the wool from in front of their eyes.. I actually encourage it… so much so that it actually upsets OTHERS. But your post NOW and your last one are two sides to the coin. I read both and you say different things. How can you make all the accusations you did before and then say how you convinced yourself of something without examining all the available information (because it comes from sources you don’t know personally), and THEN come back and say you are trying to pull the wool from your eyes? This is a contradiction (which both of your posts are full of).. sorry. But nothing I would get even remotely upset over. ;)

[Phil]

Talk about drama... Get a life folks...

[MINIMAGMAN]

HAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAAAHAAHHA
well said :p

[shartley]

Phil’s comment perfectly illustrates my point about what can happen if this thread is left open.

I might point out Phil, that reading all of the posts, and then making a comment like that could very well indicate to others that you don’t have a life either (or even LESS of one)… otherwise why bother posting it at all? Comments like those help nothing, and in fact only hurt matters. It is borderline flame, and more than a bit uncalled for. But then again, that is only my opinion.

Most people post because they either feel they are adding to a conversation or issue, are agreeing and lending support, disagreeing and stating so, post whoring (as has become the popular saying for meaningless posts aimed at only increasing their post count), or just simply causing trouble. Which do you think that post fell under? People think a two line drive-by flame is not a flame.. sorry, but it is.

AO does not have “degrees” of rules, they have rules. Please follow them. Thanks.

P.S. some may find them funny (MINIMAGMAN), but others of us do not, I guess it is a matter of maturity…

[dawump]

What a thread!

I think that most of us are loyal AGDers here. The best thing we can do is keep an eye open for people with Mags and ask them if they are using a superbolt and generally get the word out without causing hysteria.

Any product failure that can result in physical injury is a very serious thing. I think that avoiding that should be the focus right now, while treading gently. The media just love stuff like this.

Keith

[AGD]

I am closing this thread so I can take it off the top. See the "I'm Sorry" thread in the main forum to see that in fact there was no injury from our products.

AGD