A large disadvantage for the Ion

[Tao]

For those of you familiar with WAPIG, they often do thorough tests or include technical data with their presentations of new technologies. I read this article on a faster ion bolt: http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/paintguns/smartparts/firebolt/
This may be suited for the tech forum, but this is something poeple should consider when purchasing guns.

I have been trying to bring awareness of what I like to call "the missing link" in gun performance. Most people buy a gun and slap a vast loader on it and call it a day. The one feauture of the gun which goes hand in hand with loader feed rate and overall gun rate of fire seems to never be mentioned by any marker manufacturers and overlooked by everyone in the game. The only reference I have ever seen to it are the early write ups of the Warp Feed on the Airgun site with respect to the bolt getting in the way of the balls as they are being fed.

Here is what I am talking about:
Basically your loader can't feed balls when your bolt is closed (when the gun fires). So this slows down your feed rate as the bolt is "wasting" your loaders time. For example:
It takes 20ms or 0.020 seconds for your bolt to go all the way forward and all the way back (seems fast don't it? :P). In that time the bolt is in the way of any balls trying to get into the breach. So if you fire at a rate of 1 shot per second you have 0.980 seconds left of clear loading time.
However lets say we are firing at the magical benchmark of 20bps. This would mean that the bolt is getting in the way of your loader for (0.02s X 20bps) 0.4 seconds. Still seems not to bad right? Well lets take a halo which can feed at say 30bps AT MAX SPEED (this will be important later). Well this ASSUMES that it has a FULL second to feed. Now your marker is taking up a good chunk of that while firing 20bps. So your halo only has 0.6 seconds to feed. Therefore 30bpsX 0.6 seconds = 18 bps fed. Ooooo really? So we are just wasting time and energy (and gas for those without eyes) trying to fire 20 bps.

So my point about the Ion: take a look at the link, the stock Ion has a bolt speed os 0.022 seconds. (With a 30bps halo that would be a rate of fire of 16.8bps is trying to fire at 20bps)It is a slow marker in the game since my experience has shown that a bolt speed of 0.020 seconds is getting on the slower speed relative to the markers out there. WARPIG also did a loader lineup a while ago testing the different loaders with different guns. They never mention bolt speed, but my theory is that bolt speed is the reason why some markers out performed others with the same loaders. Here is that link: http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/loaders/lineup2/index.shtml

As for max loader speed, this would be if the loader were feeding into an empty space. Since the loader would be constantly starting and stopping and not getting at full speed, the average feed rate would be much lower than 30bps.

So in conclusion....BUY A MAG :P The mag outperformed everyone in the loader test :)

For the serious conclusion: If you want to buy an Ion for competitive play, you will need to buy the new bolt mentioned in the first link, or consider buying a different gun because the stock Ion can't keep up.

[MANN]

Great post. :cheers:

[Lohman446]

If the cap is 15.... why is 16.8 theoretical limit not keeping up?

[Tao]

If the cap is 15.... why is 16.8 theoretical limit not keeping up?

Is the Ion really capped at 15? Thats crazy if it were.

[Lohman446]

Is the Ion really capped at 15? Thats crazy if it were.

PSP (Ion rebound) is capped at 15

[temps]

what about the q loader on the matrix? it out preformed the mag.. Don't know why the qloader on a mag would be slower then a halo on a mag...

But I know the qloader if faster with a shorter feed tube and with the number of turns in that hose... so the qloader's specs might be off, if the way it was attached it to the markers was different between them. Other then that good article.

[Tao]

what about the q loader on the matrix? it out preformed the mag.. Don't know why the qloader on a mag would be slower then a halo on a mag...

But I know the qloader if faster with a shorter feed tube and with the number of turns in that hose... so the qloader's specs might be off, if the way it was attached it to the markers was different between them. Other then that good article.

I don't know that has been a mystery :P After seeing that article for the first time I always gave advice to "buy a mag, or a matrix with a q loader" :P If you look at the individual gun data: http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/loaders/lineup2/teststand.shtml the q loader performed horribly on the mag and way better compared to other marks on the matrix so the data is a little skewed.

[ahellers]

what about the q loader on the matrix? it out preformed the mag.. Don't know why the qloader on a mag would be slower then a halo on a mag...

But I know the qloader if faster with a shorter feed tube and with the number of turns in that hose... so the qloader's specs might be off, if the way it was attached it to the markers was different between them. Other then that good article.

It may have somthing to so with lvl X vs. Eyes, w/ lvl X every trigger pull must finish the cycle in order to fire again. however with eyes the trigger just doesnt activate the bolt if the balls not there.
so a miss feed shot would take twice as long to shoot w/ lvl X then with eyes.
t

[ricwhic414]

what about the q loader on the matrix? it out preformed the mag.. Don't know why the qloader on a mag would be slower then a halo on a mag...

But I know the qloader if faster with a shorter feed tube and with the number of turns in that hose... so the qloader's specs might be off, if the way it was attached it to the markers was different between them. Other then that good article.

Yes the qloader tests seem off, I have a qloader not on my mag but you can unloader one full pod in 1 sec. so I don't see how it could be slower then a halo

[SR_matt]

that explains why ions feel "ploopy" to me when i shoot them

good info
-matt

[Triangle]

So what about the disadvantage of shooting a Mag?
The valve itself has the ability to cycle at an astounding rate, and yet a mech shooter wont ever get past 13 or 14.

[wjr]

So what about the disadvantage of shooting a Mag?
The valve itself has the ability to cycle at an astounding rate, and yet a mech shooter wont ever get past 13 or 14.


:confused:

Why is that a disadvantage?

[Triangle]

:confused:

Why is that a disadvantage?

You're failing to see the sarcasm.

Why buy and shoot something that has the capacity to do more, but is unable to?
It's a waste of money.

To get a mag to shoot and cycle that fast, you need to set it up illegaly.

[neppo1345]

You're failing to see the sarcasm.

Why buy and shoot something that has the capacity to do more, but is unable to?
It's a waste of money.

To get a mag to shoot and cycle that fast, you need to set it up illegaly.

MY EGO CAN SHOT 30 BALLS PER SECOND

[Triangle]

MY EGO CAN SHOT 30 BALLS PER SECOND

WHEN DID YOU GET AN EGO?!

[Tao]

So what about the disadvantage of shooting a Mag?
The valve itself has the ability to cycle at an astounding rate, and yet a mech shooter wont ever get past 13 or 14.

The x valve is used in the WARPIG loader test. So an emag or x mag will be able to sustain higher rates of fire (besides the 24cycles per second without shootdown valvue recharge rate).

[ahellers]

You're failing to see the sarcasm.

Why buy and shoot something that has the capacity to do more, but is unable to?
It's a waste of money.

To get a mag to shoot and cycle that fast, you need to set it up illegaly.

there talking bolt speed, not rate of fire. you may have to set it up that way, but ive only known it to effect rate of fire not bolt speed. but ive never looked into it.
t

[neppo1345]

WHEN DID YOU GET AN EGO?!

WHEN I REALIZED THAT MAGS R 4 ***S

[Triangle]

The x valve is used in the WARPIG loader test. So an emag or x mag will be able to sustain higher rates of fire (besides the 24cycles per second without shootdown valvue recharge rate).

I'm talking Mech Mags.


And with the emag, the 'noid itself limits your cycle rate.

Even then, how many people can legitimately pull over 17bps?

[Triangle]

The x valve is used in the WARPIG loader test. So an emag or x mag will be able to sustain higher rates of fire (besides the 24cycles per second without shootdown valvue recharge rate).


Which Loader test?
Every test I've seen them do, they use an old Matrix.
Do you have a link handy for my reading pleasure?

Edit: Yeah, I can't find the one you're talking about.

[Tao]

MY EGO CAN SHOT 30 BALLS PER SECOND

It can cycle that fast but does it allow your loader to feed that fast? Do you get a consistant 30bps or do you get blank fires or stalls (if you have eyes on)?

If you take the stock Ion on simply consider its bolt speed it can cycle a maximum of 50 shots per second, but there is no time to feed any balls into it. Its vlavle may be able to sustain 20bps without shoot down.

So basically there are three factors afecting rate of fire:
Hopper feed rate
Valve rechage rate
Bolt reciprocation speed

Most guns these days brag that they can do 30-31 which I assume is recharge rate on the valve, but the question is whithout shoot down? and does the bolt speed allow for a system to feed it that fast?

[Tao]

Which Loader test?
Every test I've seen them do, they use an old Matrix.
Do you have a link handy for my reading pleasure?

Edit: Yeah, I can't find the one you're talking about.

It is http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/loaders/lineup2/index.shtml this page has the bar chart of the overall results, there is a link on the page ( http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/loaders/lineup2/teststand.shtml) which lists the performance of each loader on each gun.

[neppo1345]

It can cycle that fast but does it allow your loader to feed that fast? Do you get a consistant 30bps or do you get blank fires or stalls (if you have eyes on)?

If you take the stock Ion on simply consider its bolt speed it can cycle a maximum of 50 shots per second, but there is no time to feed any balls into it. Its vlavle may be able to sustain 20bps without shoot down.

So basically there are three factors afecting rate of fire:
Hopper feed rate
Valve rechage rate
Bolt reciprocation speed

Most guns these days brag that they can do 30-31 which I assume is recharge rate on the valve, but the question is whithout shoot down? and does the bolt speed allow for a system to feed it that fast?

As long as they are full cycles it will fire paint. Basically as long as the bolt resets all the way.

Q-Loader FTW

[Triangle]

It is http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/loaders/lineup2/index.shtml this page has the bar chart of the overall results, there is a link on the page ( http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/loaders/lineup2/teststand.shtml) which lists the performance of each loader on each gun.





Gotcha.

[Tao]

I'm talking Mech Mags.


And with the emag, the 'noid itself limits your cycle rate.

Even then, how many people can legitimately pull over 17bps?

Well the noid is an issue on the e mag, but if you put a differnt grip on it (or simply put an e grip of some variety on a mech mag), you should get more performance out of it than most other guns.

[Triangle]

Well the noid is an issue on the e mag, but if you put a differnt grip on it (or simply put an e grip of some variety on a mech mag), you should get more performance out of it than most other guns.


And how many gripframes are READILY available for mags?


Talking right off the shelf, (as we would with an ion) None.

[Tao]

And how many gripframes are READILY available for mags?


Talking right off the shelf, (as we would with an ion) None.

Well you can take mags out of the equasion. The point was that the stock Ion is slow :P Unfortunately there is no way of knowing what guns have what bolt speeds, but most out there are faster than the ion.

[neppo1345]

I still fail to see the point of this thread.

If a gun can make full cycles at 30 bps there is NO reason why a loader fast enough would not feed.

EDIT: Above post answered question.

[Triangle]

Well you can take mags out of the equasion. The point was that the stock Ion is slow :P Unfortunately there is no way of knowing what guns have what bolt speeds, but most out there are faster than the ion.

The bolt speed of a stock Ion is negliable. It's capped at 15 regardless.

[Triangle]

I think you and I know exactly what the other means and understands, Haha.

But seriously.

Pointless thread.

[geekwarrior]

The bolt speed of a stock Ion is negliable. It's capped at 15 regardless.

but my spyder shoots 43 bps and is so accurate!

[Triangle]

but my spyder shoots 43 bps and is so accurate!
http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/9383/owlfascinating9nu.jpg

[don miguel]

AAAAAH! stop with the stupid pictures of animals! it ruins threads! why do you make those! :cuss: :cuss: :cuss:

//we should make a thread just for triangle, so he can post his stupid pictures in it all day and flame the crap out of stuff// it can be the flamer thread.

[Triangle]

AAAAAH! stop with the stupid pictures of animals! it ruins threads! why do you make those! :cuss: :cuss: :cuss:

Don, STFU and GTFO.
You don't know a damn thing about any of this.

Why don't you contribute to this thread?

[neppo1345]

AAAAAH! stop with the stupid pictures of animals! it ruins threads! why do you make those! :cuss: :cuss: :cuss:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c348/neppo1345/Meetagain.jpg

[Link44]

great thread Tao. never thought of it that way. :clap:

[Lohman446]

AAAAAH! stop with the stupid pictures of animals! it ruins threads! why do you make those! :cuss: :cuss: :cuss:


Pot, meet kettle

Kettle, pot

[Tao]

I think you and I know exactly what the other means and understands, Haha.

But seriously.

Pointless thread.

Well my point was to bring up the idea of bolt speed affecting feed rate, (and secondly getting a shot at the Ion :P)

I never realized the stock Ion was capped at 15, why buy it? at least why buy it for tournament play? (at least up here the tournaments have an unlimited rate of fire in pure semi). Many people do actually get close if not break the 20bps mark....

[mag_lover05]

OH NO MOMMY MY RAY GUN YOU BOUGHT ME CANT SHOOT 20 BPS AFTER ALL!!! :eek:


EDIT: oh and tao... or watever, 20 bps in PURE SEMI is impossible.

[MoeMag]

PSP (Ion rebound) is capped at 15

17


20 bps in PURE SEMI is impossible.

No its not. Just plain and simple. Including myself I know of 3 people that can hit 20-23. Argue what you want... we use 3 fingers too.

Now alot of people have seen me use some bounce and get crazy numbers on shot counters, but I stand by, give me any gun and I can do it.

1 finger = 7 bps
2 fingers=14bps
3 fingers=21bps... and thats how we do it with alot of practice. We handle and shoot paintball guns for what seems like hours every day. Hurrah for the the shop techs with no playing skill.

[Tao]

17



No its not. Just plain and simple. Including myself I know of 3 people that can hit 20-23. Argue what you want... we use 3 fingers too.

Now alot of people have seen me use some bounce and get crazy numbers on shot counters, but I stand by, give me any gun and I can do it.

1 finger = 7 bps
2 fingers=14bps
3 fingers=21bps... and thats how we do it with alot of practice. We handle and shoot paintball guns for what seems like hours every day. Hurrah for the the shop techs with no playing skill.

being able to do 20 or more does make a big difference. On average you may pull alot less but every now and again you get two consecutive strokes at 20 (sometimes even 40bps) unless your board buffers shots, those pulls at a high rate than your gun can handle are lost forever..... :cry:

[MoeMag]

being able to do 20 or more does make a big difference. On average you may pull alot less but every now and again you get two consecutive strokes at 20 (sometimes even 40bps) unless your board buffers shots, those pulls at a high rate than your gun can handle are lost forever..... :cry:

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d53/MoeRoark/DSCN0203.jpg
yeah. too bad it dont shoot that fast.

[FromTheBack]

haha Moe, You can shoot an Ego in practice mode to get those numbers. This ain't a big C*** contest.

Honestly this does have some ground:

I saw a couple ions chopping today and what if it was related to this? OK realistically probably not but the thing is that if your loader has a hiccup that .23ms of time can screw up your 15bps day really fast.

[MoeMag]

yeah. too bad it dont shoot that fast.

Like I said.

[VFX_Fenix]

There are guns out there with shorter transit times on their bolts. No one's saying the Ion is the fastest gun out there, I mean it comes from the factory with a 17bps cap and the stock internals aren't good for much more than 17bps anyway. The other problem is a matter of how much time it takes for a paintball to be loaded into the breech, the delay put in place by the eye software (if any) to allow the ball to settle, and the delay in the loader software between when a ball is fed and when the loader recognizes that the ball stack has moved.

Also bear in mind what the Ion really is, a low cost, high performance, effectively entry level electro gun. Lots of features the "big kid" guns have with enough performance to keep a player in the mix with players that have significantly more expensive equipment and a relatively level playing field in situations where ramping is allowed.

I don't think I've ever seen an Ion in use and thought it was slow or at a disadvantage to any other gun on the field. Granted, for unlimited semi play, an Ion is at a disadvantage in terms of maximum ROF, but how many players in series which use Unlimited ROF are using Ions in even semi-pro situations? Or even in ramping series?

It's like saying a street Impreza WRX STi can't hang with the cars in the WRC without doing mods. Of course it can't, but it can do some rally style racing out of the box and is certainly more compitent in such an environment than a Lancer Evo VIII (j/k ;) ) or a Celica GT.

If anything you would want your loader to be significantly faster than your gun. The faster your loader is the more reliably it will feed to your equipment's full potential. I think I'd much rather have my $1000 gun shooting as fast as it can reliably than have to take-it-down-a-notch because my loader was slowing it down. I mean, if people wanted their guns to be able to out-shoot their loaders, everyone would be shooting VL200s on their shiny $1000 space guns.

[SCpoloRicker]

You don't pull over 15 bps.

[SR_matt]

dude 3 fingers can yield over 15 bps, it takes a lot o fpratice but it is posiable (the 7 bps per finger ill argue with since your ring finger is the weakest of your fingers, yes i said ring it sounds wrong but yes your ring finger is weaker than your pinkie, but even with your index and ring fingers beign weaker you should be abel to pull at least 17 if you can just get your fingers in thje right pattern.

-matt

[SCpoloRicker]

No.

This has been argued to death. Show me a Goldwave, and run the marker through the robot.

The fastest on AO was around 14-15 for a short period. And he was fastest by a fair amount.

/and work on your english

[68magOwner]

The fastest on AO was around 14-15 for a short period. And he was fastest by a fair amount.

It was me, I believe it was 16.4 (sustained for a whole hopper, not just a short period, higher peak rof, although im not positive on the .4, it was definatley 16.something, i have the goldwave saved on my home computer, but not on my school laptop). The runner up, was, I believe 13.something bps.



Regardless, with todays current shooting rules, I would MUCH rather have a marker that could smoothly and consistently shoot 15bps than a marker that was focused on pure speed and could potentially pump out 30-40 bps.

[SR_matt]

i speak english i just cant type well when im trying to get a point across to ignorant people becasue im annnoied at their stubornness

frankly im getting really tired of all these freaking responces about "no your wrong" no" "no im right" blah blah blah AO is starting to slide to the PBN bull, alot of peopel are being rude, a lot of people are being stupid, and frankly i know my self and probably many other members are getting really anoied at all this.

how do you think that by using 3 fingers will not yield any faster than 2 fingers?
-matt

[geekwarrior]

No.

This has been argued to death. Show me a Goldwave, and run the marker through the robot.

The fastest on AO was around 14-15 for a short period. And he was fastest by a fair amount.

/and work on your english


yes, i would need proof(a vid goldwaved) or shens

[warbeak2099]

AS LONG AS THE GUN CAN SHOOT 15BPS CONSISTANTLY, WHO CARES.

I Work For Slow Bolt Speed So I'm Really Getting A Kick Out Of Most Of These Responses. Some Of You Are Very Good At Making Like You Know What You're Talking About But In Reality You Don't. Stop Trying To Do That Since There Are A Lot Of Noobs Here That Will Believe Anything They Read. Kay Thnx Bai.

[athomas]

MoeMag: If you can get 21bps then I can pretty much guarantee you are getting bounce in your trigger switch. You might get 7 bps per finger, but as soon as you add the third finger you would get overlapping pulls and your total shots would decrease rather than increase. There was a study done somewhere that showed how fast the human finger could react to muscle impulses. Even under ideal circumstanses, I don't think the human finger can react that fast. However, as soon as you add the multiple switch closures due to switch bounce, then it is possible.


The bolt duration is very important when considering real feed rates. Force fed hoppers such as the Halo and Q loader have an advantage here. Even when the bolt is forward, these hoppers maintain pressure on the stack. As soon as the bolt opens, the ball is pushed into the breach instead of relying on gravity, so the rate of acceleration on the ball is greater. With the Halo, this puts the actual feed rate at a higher value than just taking a time slice of speed based on the feeder emptying into open air.

[SCpoloRicker]

i speak english i just cant type well when im trying to get a point across to ignorant people becasue im annnoied at their stubornness

frankly im getting really tired of all these freaking responces about "no your wrong" no" "no im right" blah blah blah AO is starting to slide to the PBN bull, alot of peopel are being rude, a lot of people are being stupid, and frankly i know my self and probably many other members are getting really anoied at all this.

how do you think that by using 3 fingers will not yield any faster than 2 fingers?
-matt

Tough tuchas, Shirley. ;)

The onus is on you; we've had verified fastest string competitions here and elsewhere, so if you want to claim you're pulling >15 bps let's see some proof.

/I'm pretty sure it's "annoyed"
//not particularly ignorant in these matters
///Lighten up, Francis

[__Phoenix__]

I've hit 15-16 (sustained for >1sec) on GW and a chrono - no bounce either. Naturally the fastest 2 shots will always be faster than the average.

/ask behemoth
//left hand is faster than right for some reason :confused:

[SR_matt]

left hand, play insterment?
-matt

[__Phoenix__]

left hand, play insterment?
-matt

Perhaps there's some merit in that statement. I have played electric guitar for awhile before I played paintball. And I like to do Van Halan solos :headbang:

/however... I certainly play my own instrument with my right hand :eek:
//ya... I soo went there

[SR_matt]

hmm wow, but any way, ya ive played violin for 13 years, guitar for 6, and messed around with a few others (all but 1 uses fast finger movements) for a few years and my left hand i can get a few more bps out of it butt i cant hold the trigger frame normaly to do it.
-matt

[Lohman446]

$20 to the first person who shows me a video of a a marker in verifiable semi mode (see the BPS contest to see how to do this) sustaining more than 20BPS (by verifiable soundwave analysis) for five seconds being pulled by human fingers.

Not gonna happen, regardless of what your vanity counters lead you to think.

[Lohman446]

17


My understanding was, in rebound mode, the Ion was capped at 15 to comply with PSP rules

[Beemer]

$20 to the first person who shows me a video of a a marker in verifiable semi mode (see the BPS contest to see how to do this) sustaining more than 20BPS (by verifiable soundwave analysis) for five seconds being pulled by human fingers.

Not gonna happen, regardless of what your vanity counters lead you to think.

LOL Make it $40 I got a 20 to add to yours. :spit_take

[Beemer]

AS LONG AS THE GUN CAN SHOOT 15BPS CONSISTANTLY, WHO CARES.

I Work For Slow Bolt Speed So I'm Really Getting A Kick Out Of Most Of These Responses. Some Of You Are Very Good At Making Like You Know What You're Talking About But In Reality You Don't. Stop Trying To Do That Since There Are A Lot Of Noobs Here That Will Believe Anything They Read. Kay Thnx Bai.

So old, so not funny, sooooooo dumb. :tard:

[cyrus-the-virus]

An ion + QEV + Tech-t L6 ot L7 bolt = fastest bolt in the west.

Actually I think the fabled AEDES would be the fastest, but that's veside the point.

[Tao]

There are guns out there with shorter transit times on their bolts. No one's saying the Ion is the fastest gun out there, I mean it comes from the factory with a 17bps cap and the stock internals aren't good for much more than 17bps anyway. The other problem is a matter of how much time it takes for a paintball to be loaded into the breech, the delay put in place by the eye software (if any) to allow the ball to settle, and the delay in the loader software between when a ball is fed and when the loader recognizes that the ball stack has moved.

Also bear in mind what the Ion really is, a low cost, high performance, effectively entry level electro gun. Lots of features the "big kid" guns have with enough performance to keep a player in the mix with players that have significantly more expensive equipment and a relatively level playing field in situations where ramping is allowed.

I don't think I've ever seen an Ion in use and thought it was slow or at a disadvantage to any other gun on the field. Granted, for unlimited semi play, an Ion is at a disadvantage in terms of maximum ROF, but how many players in series which use Unlimited ROF are using Ions in even semi-pro situations? Or even in ramping series?

It's like saying a street Impreza WRX STi can't hang with the cars in the WRC without doing mods. Of course it can't, but it can do some rally style racing out of the box and is certainly more compitent in such an environment than a Lancer Evo VIII (j/k ;) ) or a Celica GT.

If anything you would want your loader to be significantly faster than your gun. The faster your loader is the more reliably it will feed to your equipment's full potential. I think I'd much rather have my $1000 gun shooting as fast as it can reliably than have to take-it-down-a-notch because my loader was slowing it down. I mean, if people wanted their guns to be able to out-shoot their loaders, everyone would be shooting VL200s on their shiny $1000 space guns.


Yeah there is the issue about the ball taking time to enter the breach aswell. Since this is esentially an uncontrolable I just wanted to get it out there about bolt times being a factor (if they were ever given) when buying new guns.

[Tao]

Well it seems the world of AO is not ready for the relevation of how bolt speed affects rate of fire. However with all of the talk about how high max rate of fire really is, not one person as argued that a halo is useless with its claimed 30bps (depending on mods). If we can only shoot up to 15 consistantly why do we all have halos, or eggs, why not just use good old revys which feed at about 15????? Hmmmm aparantly this logic escapes them.

It seems like for the time being we will leave the "wang off" that this forum has become open to the general populace of AO (and you can still hear in the distance "...well my fingers can hold 16bps....well MINE can hold 21bps..." Inches, bps - what's the difference really anyway??? :rofl: )

[Lohman446]

Well it seems the world of AO is not ready for the relevation of how bolt speed affects rate of fire. However with all of the talk about how high max rate of fire really is, not one person as argued that a halo is useless with its claimed 30bps (depending on mods). If we can only shoot up to 15 consistantly why do we all have halos, or eggs, why not just use good old revys which feed at about 15????? Hmmmm aparantly this logic escapes them.

It seems like for the time being we will leave the "wang off" that this forum has become open to the general populace of AO (and you can still hear in the distance "...well my fingers can hold 16bps....well MINE can hold 21bps..." Inches, bps - what's the difference really anyway??? :rofl: )


The advantage of a true force feed system regardless of speed has been discussed before. Perhaps if you researched it you would find that there is a logical explanation. Or did they "escape you" :rolleyes:

At 10BPS I would prefer a Halo over a revvy jus for the pressure in the feedstack and consistency.

[Tao]

The advantage of a true force feed system regardless of speed has been discussed before. Perhaps if you researched it you would find that there is a logical explanation. Or did they "escape you" :rolleyes:

At 10BPS I would prefer a Halo over a revvy jus for the pressure in the feedstack and consistency.

lol I was being sarcastic :P

[MoeMag]

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d53/MoeRoark/17bps.jpg

From ion manual from SP websites

[warbeak2099]

So old, so not funny, sooooooo dumb. :tard:

Your face is dumb...

[Ydna]

I don't understand why this thread went awry...it was perfectly fine at first...lol

Recently I made this (http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/animations/ionqev_v2_15fps.gif) animation which helps to show the difference in bolt speeds in an Ion.
The vast majority of the dwell time on an Ion is taken up venting the solenoid. Many other guns spend a lot of time venting as well, though it might not be quite as much. The actual releasing of air only happens for a few milliseconds.

Whenever I do speed testing on a hopper or some such, things like eye holoff time (generally 1-2 ms depending on the marker) and the total dwell really do effect the max speed. Cut off 5 milliseconds from the cycling time and you can up the speed quite a bit.

Practically....useless. Theoretically....big difference.

[Tao]

I don't understand why this thread went awry...it was perfectly fine at first...lol

Recently I made this (http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/animations/ionqev_v2_15fps.gif) animation which helps to show the difference in bolt speeds in an Ion.
The vast majority of the dwell time on an Ion is taken up venting the solenoid. Many other guns spend a lot of time venting as well, though it might not be quite as much. The actual releasing of air only happens for a few milliseconds.

Whenever I do speed testing on a hopper or some such, things like eye holoff time (generally 1-2 ms depending on the marker) and the total dwell really do effect the max speed. Cut off 5 milliseconds from the cycling time and you can up the speed quite a bit.

Practically....useless. Theoretically....big difference.

Hey! Nice animation too bad most people have probably given up reading all the way through the post :P

I guess if you are playing in tourneys with a cap of 15 it is pretty useless, hitting peaks in your rate of fire at 20bps plus may stop a chop or dead pull or two...it is something of note for those people interested in very high rates of fire (large games, scenarios, etc)

[Beemer]

I don't understand why this thread went awry...it was perfectly fine at first...lol

LOL ya you do and it was and if I had to explain then you wouldnt. :ninja: To Bad my first post in this thread is what it was, but alas that is why it went south. You understand. ;)

Well done on the .GIF, Thanks for posting it.


too bad most people have probably given up reading all the way through the thread.

Maybe not, I read the whole thread. Its a good thread. Just to bad some wasted a post with out contributing including me. Sorry about that. Some of these posters need to be confronted or it will just continue. You understand.

Peace out.

___________

http://home.comcast.net/~beemerone/AoIL.gif

[68magOwner]

However with all of the talk about how high max rate of fire really is, not one person as argued that a halo is useless with its claimed 30bps (depending on mods). If we can only shoot up to 15 consistantly why do we all have halos, or eggs, why not just use good old revys which feed at about 15????? Hmmmm aparantly this logic escapes them.

...Since when does a revvy feed 15bps? Or a halo feed 30 for that matter?

I play with revvys on my PSP mode markers regularly, cap still set at 15 on the marker, and, the revvy DEFINATLEY does not feed 15bps, and I have mods such as the vortex impeller which are suppossed to speed up the revvy/make it more consistent, which, it does, but, still not feeding 15, MAYBE a consistent 13. Now, you can argue that 13 is plenty fast, and I would agree with you, the issue however, is that the revvy does not feed consistently, and also, since there is nothing putting tension on the balls (short of gravity) when you run, balls will bobble around the loader and cause your feedrate to drop pretty drastically with a revvy.

Heck, I dont even think eggs could keep up with PSP mode consistently, but, I havent used an egg on my markers in PSP mode enough to really say. But, Im sure, even if it did keep up when still, it would have the same issues when running that the revvy has.

The halo, vlocity, and for the oddball, Qloader are really the only ways to go if you want your marker feeding consistently in psp mode.


bah, i just realized the real lack of relevance to the thread this post has, but, too much typing to not post. :cheers:

[Tao]

...Since when does a revvy feed 15bps? Or a halo feed 30 for that matter?

I play with revvys on my PSP mode markers regularly, cap still set at 15 on the marker, and, the revvy DEFINATLEY does not feed 15bps, and I have mods such as the vortex impeller which are suppossed to speed up the revvy/make it more consistent, which, it does, but, still not feeding 15, MAYBE a consistent 13. Now, you can argue that 13 is plenty fast, and I would agree with you, the issue however, is that the revvy does not feed consistently, and also, since there is nothing putting tension on the balls (short of gravity) when you run, balls will bobble around the loader and cause your feedrate to drop pretty drastically with a revvy.

Heck, I dont even think eggs could keep up with PSP mode consistently, but, I havent used an egg on my markers in PSP mode enough to really say. But, Im sure, even if it did keep up when still, it would have the same issues when running that the revvy has.

The halo, vlocity, and for the oddball, Qloader are really the only ways to go if you want your marker feeding consistently in psp mode.


bah, i just realized the real lack of relevance to the thread this post has, but, too much typing to not post. :cheers:


Well the reason for this thread is part of the reason why those loaders don't feed as fast as on the box. The revy can feed UPTO 15bps...this would be into an empty box. The bolt getting in the way slows it down.

Depending on upgrades a halo can feed up to 40bps....

[68magOwner]

Well the reason for this thread is part of the reason why those loaders don't feed as fast as on the box. The revy can feed UPTO 15bps...this would be into an empty box. The bolt getting in the way slows it down.

Depending on upgrades a halo can feed up to 40bps....

I really dont believe that a revvy can feed 15, even into a box, gravity just dosent allow for it. Its finals time, so, I'm to exhausted to do the math and prove it to you, but, just trust me on this one?


And no, a halo can not feed 40bps. It cant be done in a drop test, because, the halo cant use its springs in a drop test, causing it to be no faster than any other loader. And, it cant happen on a marker due *in part to* the bolt slowing down feeding. Even with the fastest board, most powerful batteries, quickest motors, speed wheels, what have you, I have yet to see a halo consistently do more than high 20's on any marker or in any video or any time ever.

[cyrus-the-virus]

...Since when does a revvy feed 15bps? Or a halo feed 30 for that matter?

I play with revvys on my PSP mode markers regularly, cap still set at 15 on the marker, and, the revvy DEFINATLEY does not feed 15bps, and I have mods such as the vortex impeller which are suppossed to speed up the revvy/make it more consistent, which, it does, but, still not feeding 15, MAYBE a consistent 13. Now, you can argue that 13 is plenty fast, and I would agree with you, the issue however, is that the revvy does not feed consistently, and also, since there is nothing putting tension on the balls (short of gravity) when you run, balls will bobble around the loader and cause your feedrate to drop pretty drastically with a revvy.

Heck, I dont even think eggs could keep up with PSP mode consistently, but, I havent used an egg on my markers in PSP mode enough to really say. But, Im sure, even if it did keep up when still, it would have the same issues when running that the revvy has.

The halo, vlocity, and for the oddball, Qloader are really the only ways to go if you want your marker feeding consistently in psp mode.


bah, i just realized the real lack of relevance to the thread this post has, but, too much typing to not post. :cheers:

An egg does not have the same problums as a revy would because the EGG is a true force feed hopper. I actually like the egg very much but the ****ty plastic they use stops me from buying it.

besides that ball bounce around in EVERY hopper except the Q-loader.

[Lohman446]

An egg does not have the same problums as a revy would because the EGG is a true force feed hopper. I actually like the egg very much but the ****ty plastic they use stops me from buying it.

besides that ball bounce around in EVERY hopper except the Q-loader.


But bouncing above the feedstack in a true force feed hopper does not take pressure off the ball stack.

[68magOwner]

An egg does not have the same problums as a revy would because the EGG is a true force feed hopper.
No, its not. It does have a "cup" which makes it pseudo-force fed, but, it does not keep constatnt tension on the ball stack and cant be concidered fully force fed.

[FSU_Paintball]

$20 to the first person who shows me a video of a a marker in verifiable semi mode (see the BPS contest to see how to do this) sustaining more than 20BPS (by verifiable soundwave analysis) for five seconds being pulled by human fingers.

Not gonna happen, regardless of what your vanity counters lead you to think.


I'm considered very fast on the trigger. I think it's because I play guitar. It really does help. I can sustain around the 14-15 area for a few seconds.

The fastest guy I know can get up around 20. He plays guitar too. I've never seen anyone else even approach his speed, though.

I think you're right, I doubt you'll find anyone.

[FSU_Paintball]

And as for this original topic... I have 3 ions. None of them have trouble staying at 15BPS, which is the max I can use in any tourney anyway. I have one, with the stock bolt, that can go a good bit faster than 15. Perhaps the QEV I have in it makes a difference.

If that's so, that means that a $15 part can overcome this "large disadvantage" you speak of. Considering the gun is only $200 to begin with, I don't see the problem.

[Tao]

And as for this original topic... I have 3 ions. None of them have trouble staying at 15BPS, which is the max I can use in any tourney anyway. I have one, with the stock bolt, that can go a good bit faster than 15. Perhaps the QEV I have in it makes a difference.

If that's so, that means that a $15 part can overcome this "large disadvantage" you speak of. Considering the gun is only $200 to begin with, I don't see the problem.

Well I was mainly trying to bring the truth about bolt speed to light (which obviously most people don't seem ready for...the can stick with their magical gremlins :P). The main reason why I used the Ion as an example is (well just saying "Ion" attracts attention) and it is the only place I ever found a bolt's speed recorded so I could demonstrate what happens with a 20ms bolt speed.

[FSU_Paintball]

Well, not to piss you off, but it makes you look like you're just another overeager Ion basher. Posts phrased like that are a big reason why a lot of people roll their eyes when they think about the AMO community (and I'm not talking about PBN kiddies)

[billmi]

Here is what I am talking about:
Basically your loader can't feed balls when your bolt is closed (when the gun fires). So this slows down your feed rate as the bolt is "wasting" your loaders time. For example:
It takes 20ms or 0.020 seconds for your bolt to go all the way forward and all the way back (seems fast don't it? :P). In that time the bolt is in the way of any balls trying to get into the breach. So if you fire at a rate of 1 shot per second you have 0.980 seconds left of clear loading time.


Well said, Tao. I think you make a solid point that bolt cycling time is an important factor in how fast a marker can be fed.



So my point about the Ion: take a look at the link, the stock Ion has a bolt speed os 0.022 seconds. (With a 30bps halo that would be a rate of fire of 16.8bps is trying to fire at 20bps)

The time listed in the article is dwell time, not bolt speed or bolt closure time.

While this may seem like a minor distinction, it is an important one. The data you cite from the article is not the minimum time the Ion needs to close its bolt and fire, it is the minimum amount of time the Ion must send an electrical pulse to its solenoid valve for the bolt to close.

It is legitimate, to compare dwell times to note a difference in bolt closing time between two bolts, but not to assume that that dwell time value is also equal to bolt travel time (i.e. comparing a bolt to the clock.)

The bolt might be still be moving forward after the pulse has stopped, because the solenoid valve still needs time to reset. There is also most likely a lag between the time the electrical pulse starts and the time the bolt starts moving (i.e. more time when the bolt is open and available for loading, when considering multiple shots.) Additionally, to actually fire, the bolt needs to do more than just close, it needs to stay closed long enough for enough gas to flow from the fire chamber to the breech to fire the ball. The factory recommended dwell setting on an Ion is 7.5 to 10 ms longer than the minimum dwell needed to fully close the bolt. It will work lower than that, if you are aiming to maximize cycle time, but that is what is recommended for velocity consistency and reliable operation.

The dwell time also does not take into consideration the time needed for the bolt to retract far enough for a ball to feed.

And to add more complexity, the breech is not just in an "open ready to feed" state or a "closed, not ready to feed state." While the bolt is opening, the size of the opening is increasing, and a ball, being spherical can feed partially when the bolt is partially open. Once the bolt gets past being 50% open, the ball can start feeding, even though it won't be able to feed all the way until the bolt has cleared the back of the breech. The ball can be almost 50 percent fed befure the bolt is fully back.