New marker design.. 2x tube bclosed bolt, lots of detail.

[Vegeta]

The pic explains all.. bolt goes back, pushed powertube on top back, ball drops in as bolt hita valve, air goes up, pushes ball outs nad pwr tube closed, and the linkage rod pushes bolt back behind sear.

I knwo the sear is whaky... it will take me time to design a good one.

ANy comments? possible problems?

[wes]

SWEET!!!!! :D

[Vegeta]

Well i see a problem. When that powertube goes back air will go out the back of the gun... Need to have non-moving assembly w/oring there to stop air fron shooting out hte back.. ok? just mentally add that in.

[kilaueakid]

won't the air be coming out of the bolt before it is closed? maybe i missed something. I will look again. cool design though.

[kilaueakid]

ohhh i gotch ya now....top bolt is like a mag bolt...duhhh...it must be late. That is cool.

[ciaran.mooney]

Is it going to have an internal reg? So it can run Co2 and HPA?

[Vegeta]

I suppose there could be a reg put in the valve that is adjusted in the back of the gun but you would have to unscrew the reg to get the back block off. I am still pondering how to seal off that top bolt in the back.. I guess just make the end flat with o-rigns but that could slow down bolt travel if not lubed good.And I cant have an end cap becuase then hte bolt would still have to go through the end caps holes. I'll find a way.

[ciaran.mooney]

What would the benefits of this system be exactly? And how does the bottom bolt return to its original position?

[Vegeta]

the powertube is blown foreward by the air like a mag... btu this is laos pullign hte back bock with it, and therefore hte linkage/timing rod pushes hte bolt back over hte sear and latches.

[dorksquad]

i know you said that you need to work on it but with that sear design i dont think that it will hold the bottom bolt/striker in the cocked position, you need to reverse the hook in the sear and on the bolt/striker, (just a thought unless you come up with something better)

[Vegeta]

Yea i rushed that on there, it should be like this:

[rhetor22]

If I am reading this correctly, the ball would have to drop into the chamber VERY fast.

If I could, with your permission, put this into an animation so that its easier to understand, that would be great.

[pbjosh]

I am sorry but I think I will burst your bubble a bit. I am designing a gun and have built a pre-production prototype electro-pneumatic closed bolt spool valve gun. With out some sort of feed system or ACE, I have to let my bolt be open for 50 ms or better to maintain a good flow of paint. If I shorten that time, I can run into bad flow problems. Here is my current timing settings:

Solenoid 1 (valve)- open 3-4 ms at the least, 10 ms standard
Solenoid 1 off
10 ms break
Solenoid 2 on for 50ms, then off.

You are looking to feed a paintball in 3-4 millisec. Won't work. If you get a ball to feed that fast, the ball will hit the breech so fast it will break. Also, the bolt looks like it is one piece. If that is the case, the air will feed out of the bolt venturies faster than the bolt will close, and the air will go up into the breech and feed tubes, breaking paint into the loader. I have had my design do the same with bad timing.

As for layout, I like it. The design needs to go more like the cocker though, and you need to try looking at a sterling pump. It is the same basic idea, but with a nelson type hammer up front. Have the trigger release the hammer, and then have the hammer poppet valve, and hit a 4-way for the bolt, like the AT-85. Then have the bolt cycle back, and then recock the hammer on the way forward.

Or you could have the hammer be blowback, and the bolt be a 2-piece blow forward design. If you are interested in what I have done on a similiar design of mine just ask. I may have some solutions.

Josh

[Vegeta]

Well thats what hte timing / linkage rod is for.. its adjustable. the idea is that the powertube should be back and open a little bit before the bolt hits. My drawign isnt to accurate, for I belive hte botl should be further back to give the powertube more time to get open. Basiclaly, the timign can be adjusted to maek ti shoot perfect, but if you go to far the gun will shoot late, and not go enough it will chop like hell.

Sure, you can animate it, I just don't want anyone to take this to another forum.. I had thoguths to release it at all.

[Vegeta]

here ... thsi shows how much time you'll have.. i didnt have time ot do the CAD work or physics to figure out exact timing.

[Cha0tic]

ok, i'm on the internet via satelite from my cruise ship. i looked over the design and read about the air escaping from the back of the marker. why don't you put an oring around the outside of the bolt near the back? kinda like on a spyders bolt.

[Vegeta]

Thats what that blue thing is... but i am saying that when the powertube comes back to let a ball drop in, the oring would go out hte back of hte gun, allowing air to escape. So I fixed taht by simply moving the end part of hte powertube up.

[tranman]

If you think about it its not really a closed bolt marker. The air that is rushing out would be coming at the same time the bolt is moving forward, in a true closed bolt design the bolt is all the way forward before the air comes to the ball

[Vegeta]

Well soem peopel would consdier it closed bolt, some would not. Peopel would not becuase of what you just said.
Peopel would, becuase in its "Ready" position (btw.. this thing is always cocked, if it is not gased up and you pull the trigger, it will open the bolt) it is closed. So thats debatable.

Also, last night while lookign at printed diagrams I have.. i was tryign to figure out the sear problem and realized that, if the sear is held down, as logn as there is enough air to blow the powertube forwards, then that mainspring will kepp pushing hte bolt back and hitting hte valve pin, therefore making it full auto. I am not sure yet if the air has enough strength to botl the assembly forword or not, but a blowback vent vavle would render hte same effect.
So you could use it as a semi auto by putting in a SS trigger (much liek that of a M98, the trigger pulls hte sear back, botl goes forward, but the sear goes right back up, even though the trigger is pulled.) and that would allow single shots. But you could just have it to where as long as you are pullign that trigger, the sear is down. semi-auto would be cpable in full auto, but it would be hard to control, much like the SMG's were back in the day. overshootign players accidentally would be a problem for those heavy on the trigger.

Lemme knwo how you peopel feel on this.

[pbjosh]

Here are some thoughts

[ciaran.mooney]

Someone please animate this thing cos i cant really see it properly.

[Vegeta]

Your new bolt in your pic is a mag assembly, pretty much. I have modeled a demo in 3D Studio already, and Have mode some modifications. It will work like a blowback with air assit blow foreward. man this is complicated since teh bolt is backward. Ok there will be a spring behind the pin in the valve. The valve pin has a almost springiny reation when gassed up. The botl will hti it and the air will go up and out, creting a semi-blowforward. As you said, this probably wont be enought ot lug that heavy assemble back forward. But hte bounce of the valve pin will give the bolt enough umph to get back. Hopefully. A bit of blowback gas would be used to get the bolt back too. Now, for hte choppign problem. I, on my model, changed a few things that will give the thing enough time. You must rememebr ti takes a little time forthe valve to get that air out of there and a little tiem for the air to go aroudn that turn and out hte tube.

Give me 30 minutes and Ill have fully 3D animation done.

[ciaran.mooney]

Yay!

[pbjosh]

First of all,

NO, the valve spring will not have enough UMPHFF to push the hammer forward. At all. EVER.

Second, the air will take a little time to get up into the bolt. 1-2 milliseconds. Or, about 1/500 of a second, and then the air WILL be in the feed. It take 5-6 ms for the ball to get ALL the way down the barrel.

Again, without a huge change in the bolt, the air pressure will hold it OPEN, and won't close it.

The air will bleed out of the venturis before it even begins to push the bolt forward.

The bolt will be in the back position when the hammer hits the valve, and the paint will not have time to feed.

Why hasn't someone else come up with this design? Because it won't work.

Josh

[Vegeta]

Think how a blowback gun works. Blowback gas from the valve pushed the bolt back over the sear. I have changed the valve workings from just relying on 'blowforward' to that blowback gass pushignthe botl back (there will ahev to be vents put in the vavle which I left out of my animation.)
So it CAN work. It won't be blowforward though.
From my animation you can see that the powertube (I modifyed it from my original drawings) comes back penty far to let the ball drop in.

[pbjosh]

Okay, you are still not getting the idea.

The bolt/hammer assembly will go back and hit the valve. Before the valve can even be OPENED ALL THE WAY, air has already exited the gun. In 1/1000 to 1/500th of a second.

The bolt will have been open 1-2 millisec before the valve is hit. That is NOT enought time for the ball to drop. PERIOD.

And, If you think about the blowback guns designs on the market right now, the bolt/hammer assembly comes all the way forward, lauched a ball, and the etc, before the bolt cam even move back 1/8" And you think you can get a bolt to seal while it travels over 1" forward, and then not vent out the bolt, well...

I have been playing for over 10 years. I worked with Doc Nickel. I have a gun design coming out, hopefully, this fall.

I have been around the block. AS it sits, Your design WON"T work.

Josh

[Vegeta]

Well thats why i'm here... TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO GET IT TO WORK.

There's a way to do it.
It might take time, but it can work.
This isn't my only gun design. I have many otehrs, including double tube blowforawards which I have mentioned on this before.

Not that I am not interested in your desings, Pbjosh. I would like to see them.

Now I belive I mentioned how the SMG-60 and some SMG-68's were full auto. Well, beign the expert you are, josh, Im sure you know that they were classifyed as an open bolt, yet really never had a front bolt. they had a striker, or hammer (which some call a bolt) that hit a valve. The valve was actually two valves. There was a front hole where the gs exited to propell the ball, and a back vent, where blowback gas would exit the valve and propel the bold back to its home over the sear. If the sear was held down, the mainspring would push the hammer back towards the valve and the process would start over. But you knew that right.
But eventually the spring would overpower the blowback gas, little by little, and after a clip of shots with the sear held down it would sound liek hte typical Tippmann on a low tank.
pop pop pop pop pop pop popopopopoppoo.. burp.
The bolt stroke would be shorter and shorter till it did not have enough energy from the mainspring to hit the pin hard enough.
But this can be bypassed, in my theory.
In place of blowback gas moving the hammer back, there could be a small gasling that would go out the valve, and use that blowback gas and put it into a small piston wth release valve. This way, every time the pin was depressed by the valve, gas would exit the front, buu also exit the side and propell the piston, and hammer, backwards with more force than just the regular gas burst. This way the spring could never overpower the gas, creating true full auto in a mechanical gun. Of course, there could be a selector switch, as in an AT series, that chooses weather the trigger hold down the sear, or uses a single shot mechanism where you can hold the trigger down, but the sear will only realese, then pop back up, like I said before.

So thats anotehr gun. Will that work Mr. PBJosh?
I wish I had one and soem parts to try it out.

[pbjosh]

Well,

The reason the SMG didn't have a bolt is because the clip feed system was the breech. The SMG didn't have to run a bolt back and forth, because the breech changed to another one that had a ball already loaded. That a simple one. Also the VERY heavy 1lb bolt didn't cycle that fast with such a small valve leaking a bit of CO2 Liquid out of it. the 68 Special that came right after it had the standard setup, with the bolt being pushed by the hammer forward, and even had a funky partial nylon slide that indexed the bolt kinda like the trigger slot on the three way of a Cocker or the slingshot bolts made for the cocker. This allowed the the bolt to stay closed longer. And it still had blowback. One of my favorite guns. I took out some of my teammates 5 games in a row with it. I had two newbies on my side. They didn't get to do much as I shot out the 'mag, 'cocker, and spyder before they got much chance. The stock tippmann barrel was great. Of course, that was when they were annodizing them.

Oh yeah, a huge upgrade from the SMG's steel barrel, that had a tendancy to rust. And were just never really good.

Yes the tippmanns are open bolt blow back. I am not stupid.

And actually, the first closed bolt blow back was made some 7-9 years ago by a person who took a Vm-68, added a spring from a mag to the hammer, and built a ring that sealed with the front of a hammer. The ring was connected to the bolt. The bolt would be in the closed position, and the hammer would be at the cocked position. The disconnecting sear would let go of the hammer, then the hammer would strike the valve. The ball would fly, then the pressure from the valve on the hammer and ring would push the hammer and ring back. The hammer would reconnect with the sear, and the bolt would go back forward from the spring pressure behind it, indexing another ball, leaving it in the closed position.

There you go, a closed bolt blowback.

Now, for your piston/hammer thing:

If you used a normal blow back gun, with that assembly, and used SMALL passages for the piston, it might go slow enough to load paint. Of course, the normal blowback to the hammer does the same thing and is much simpler all the way around. If you think you can outsmart everybody, and just end up with afullauto only design, go for it. But Tippmann has another example of this for you.

Look at the Tippmann F/A! That was a great gun, but the dual piston linkage thingy in the back that was meant to SLOW the hammer down was there for a reason. And it still needed a spring wound force feeder. Silly you. The hammer would cycle way to fast for paint to feed without it. And even had problems with keeping it slow enough as was. And never take those piston thingies apart. A real pain to put back together.

As for my designs, I will give you a link to pbnation:

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36097

also a bit from an email from Hans at Racegun:

"My opinion is, as you have a completely unique gun - what I'd call the first Nelson based semi, without hammer to boot - you should go for BMW image, positioning the Shiva (brilliant name!) up front with the premium tournament guns. Aim for Angel, custom Cocker, Matrix and Impulse."

And he has seen the design, but it held by a Non-Disclosure Agreement.

How about you? I will sign a NDA, and even give you plenty of info and advice, but you need to learn some more basics about the markers and have some experience with designing and building one yourself first.

Then go ahead and mock MR. PBJosh

(and the low blow) right after you learn to spell.

Happily yours,

Josh Coray,
Designer of the 'Shiva' Paintball Gun

[Vegeta]

Well josh.. you have got me now.
My intentions on the piston idea was that it would use small air line, like that of cocker pnematics. This, conencted to the piston, would supply more power than just a bit of co2 leaking out a hole in the back of the valve. This amount of force would also slow up the bolt around the point where the spring takes over and starts to push back (considering that the sear is held down) During this moment there would be a sort of equalibrium between both the spring and the piston, so this would cuase a bit of slow down. The BPS could be adjusted by adjusting the amount of gas the pistons recieves. A selector switch liek that of the AT series could be used to select weather hte sear can be held down or SS mode.
But thats another story.
Josh, I would really appriciate talking with you further about thsi stuff, now that I actualyl see you know what you doing! On the net, there is a fine line between ingenious and ingnorace :).

[Vegeta]

Check this out.. I got htis from a fellow deisgn. We have been brainstormign for hte past several months lonkg at tons and tosn of ideas trying to get UNIQUEness. well, i thought this gun could be it. Until you people warned me of hte choppign/timing problem. Well he designed a 3way valve that can somehow solve hte problem. I don't fully understand it but maybe you will (he will give me mroe detailed pics of how it will react with my gun.)
This is how he said it wold work:
---------
1. Trigger is released sending a ac style bottom bolt into the valve
2. Valve opens allowing air in from right seal
3. Air pushes top bolt forward closing breech
4. air enters port 2(center port) passing unobstructed through to port 3
5. port three by this time is aligned with top bolt port and ball is fired.

----------
I don't get it quite yet but maybe someoen will. All I know is that he sounded excited and liek this would really make it work somehow.. remeber this is the actual valve not a 3 way like on a cocker.

[pbjosh]

Okay, where to start?

The piston might slow down the hammer action, but the system needs a separate lpr supply or the air from the valve release will enter the piston, start charging it, and the air from the vale would vent totally down the barrel, hence venting the piston, unless you use a check valve.

I am not to sure about thoughts on the 3-way valve for the 'Cocker. I looks like it could breed some serious binding problems in from not being unbalanced (yup, unbalanced) enough to run the way you want it to. Also, what is the deal with the bolt/push action? Unless you use a bolt design like the one I showed you, the bolt closing before the air gets outta the valve is NOT going to work. Thats why you don't see any designs like that. The design is then blowforwad, and blow forward is BOLT only. Now look at the ATS and Vector designs, using 4-ways connected to a ram, activated by the hammer. That gives you the action for full auto, plus the light connections between bolt and hammer. The Sterling Pump is a good staring point for a couple of your ideas. It has a great hammer action, and the bolt can be separate or connected for testing. Dam good gun also. I need to get me one.

Pass on more.

Look into the Sov's bolt, and the Shockers. I think a good burst of air a similiar system would get it going well. Look good and hard at areas that have pressure on them In a bolt, look at the surface area, and mutiply it my the pressure used. Look a bit into fluid/volume/pressure ratios, and realize, the what numbers you are looking for dealing with the pressure/velocity have to include volume, so you would be looking for Energy used in a system and NOT just pressure.

I will go off on this later

josh

[Vegeta]

I get ya.
I am pretty much done with that design unless the other guy can explain how this is all gonna tie together. No I am focusing on using a piston to power some things... And what do you think about this:

Some guns (electronic) use solenoids to activate the valves.
Now, valves are normally setup like the following. Gas inlet. actual valve (rod with hole in it that gets pushed so the air ga flow through the hole), and an outlet. The rod with the hole (forget tech term) is pushed by what is normally a vlave pin. What if.. teh rod w/ hole and pin were replaced by a piston that had the rod atttached. This would be powered by some sorta small pressure on/off valve i tneh trigger that would take air from a onboard regulator. This would eliminate the need for a hammer to hit the valve pin. Pull the trigger, sends low pressure gas to piston, piston (with hole in the rod on the piston) opens valve, witch sends hgih pressure air straight from reg out gun. The sear to activate toe on/off for the piston would haev to be liek that of the 98, one click, single shot, or the user could jsut hodl the vavle open. I have no idea how this would tie itno the rest of the gun, but its just an idea. Maybe thit could be used on boltless guns, where not only does the piston open the valve, but it closes the 'trap door'.

Josh, I would really like to talk with you more about this kinda thing. Head up to the AO IRC caht now and then, I'm almost always there. And if I said "ram" anywhere in this post I meant piston.

[pbjosh]

WEll, now you are talking my language!

I am short for time, so here is a Cocker,BM2K, whatever poppet emulator type of valve. A Poppet Emulating Valve (PEV)is a valve that copys the action of a hammer/poppet, but doesn't have either. The Ram opening a piston is how a Paradox gun runs. The ram shaft runs through the valve, and is connected directly to the seal for the poppet valve.

Here is one build to be ran by a 4-way switch.

[pbjosh]

that is a normal closed position, and this one is open,

Sorry for the size

Josh

[Vegeta]

YES! That is exactly what I was talking about! The reason I have avoided that design all this teim is becuase it would require more advanced pnuematics, and I was going for a pure bread maechanical, so, I avoided it. But that has been sitting in my mind for years.. just begging to be put into one of my gun deigns.

So I see you use 3D Studio? Or is that some other modeler? I am very fluent in MAX, and that is where I work on the animation prospects of my deisgns. But to be honest, most of my designs start on paper, or in MS Paint. lol.

[pbjosh]

That was all AutoCAD2000.

Well, I am a Draftsmans 'A' by trade, in AutoCAD and manual. I also am looking to learn Solidworks, and have SW2K2 on the way. It should be here this week.

As for that valve, that should be the simplest. Or you could even get a cocker or BM2K valve and run a Clippard 7/8 ram to it.

I have some quick "maybe" drawings of the 'Shiva' body.

Just some quickies, for comment. I will post those tonight.

Josh

[Vegeta]

Can't forget about solenoids...
Same thing, only with a solenoid. Or a small servo could do it. just have to straighten out the arm... I think Ill wok up something like that in max..