Closed Bolt Palmers vs Pnuemag

[matteusz]

I should probably just send a pm to pneumager but I think there are enough people around interested in this stuff that we can get a conversation going. I just got off the phone with Palmers and got some great info from them.

I really like the idea of a gun that works on timing and can withstand the rigors of CO2 while still performing like it should. Granted with a good expansion chamber a mag and a palmers can both do this. Sure the design is totally different (blow forward vs closed bolt timed) but the net effect is the same. Pneumatic actuated trigger with a gun that can keep up.

So I am thinking of getting a palmers blazer to mix things up and try something new. By the same token I am thinking should I bother? On the one hand I get to build the pnuemag from parts and make it custom myself. Plus I can stick with cocker barrels. On the other hand I think I would get a better machine if I let Palmers do the work for me and hey it sounds like their barrels are pretty good. Heck I could even get a freak kit fitted to it if I decided to go that route.

I play mostly rec ball woods ball type games but I love having a good quality gun that I can shoot in any game and come out on top if I play well (based on my game and not the limits of my gun). Sometimes I get the itch and play speedball too though.
Thus we come to my questions:

1. I don't want to run HPA. I've done the reading and the cost is just too much for me despite the advantages. Would I be wasting my time trying to get some good reg combination going on a pneumag project that won't be as seamless as a palmers? Could it be?

2. Anyone have both and care to compare them for me? Action, maintenance, price, performance?

3. Does anyone have a blazer? If so how are the stock barrels? Ever have timing issues?

Thanks in advance for your responses.
Mat

[LegumeOfTerror]

my classic mag takes co2 like a champ. i run either a vertically mounted 3.5oz or a 20 on a remote. i never have issues with co2.

[captian pinky]

problem would be shooting quickly with the mag on co2 personally i would look for a cheap used tank

[11 Bravo]

If you dont mind the weight a steel hpa tank is pretty cheap from what I have heard.

[matteusz]

Anyone have a response to my questions? I get it. I know co2 is fine on a mag. Seriously this issue has been discussed. PNUEMAG DIFFERENT. Shooting fast DIFFERENT. I am not having a co2 on a mag issue I am having a CLOSED BOLT CUSTOM GUN VS a PNEUMAG issue. Seriously now anyone own a blazer or a cocker even that can compare for me?

[hs2000]

the only mech I have found to shoot better then a blazer is my RT, ULE'ed, ULT'ed, Automag.

But that's only takes HPA, and if you want to shoot Co2, get a blazer, they're really good, great barrels, no need to time, small and compact, easy to clean, lifetime warranty... I could go on for ever.

I recommend the single trigger over the double, it's feels great, fits in your hand perfectly, and has crazy old school flare.

Edit; don't focus on it being closed bolt, if anything that's a disadvantage, you have to worry about roll outs, thank god palmers' barrels have widgets.

[pendulous]

I should probably just send a pm to pneumager but I think there are enough people around interested in this stuff that we can get a conversation going. I just got off the phone with Palmers and got some great info from them.

I really like the idea of a gun that works on timing and can withstand the rigors of CO2 while still performing like it should. Granted with a good expansion chamber a mag and a palmers can both do this. Sure the design is totally different (blow forward vs closed bolt timed) but the net effect is the same. Pneumatic actuated trigger with a gun that can keep up.

So I am thinking of getting a palmers blazer to mix things up and try something new. By the same token I am thinking should I bother? On the one hand I get to build the pnuemag from parts and make it custom myself. Plus I can stick with cocker barrels. On the other hand I think I would get a better machine if I let Palmers do the work for me and hey it sounds like their barrels are pretty good. Heck I could even get a freak kit fitted to it if I decided to go that route.

I play mostly rec ball woods ball type games but I love having a good quality gun that I can shoot in any game and come out on top if I play well (based on my game and not the limits of my gun). Sometimes I get the itch and play speedball too though.
Thus we come to my questions:

1. I don't want to run HPA. I've done the reading and the cost is just too much for me despite the advantages. Would I be wasting my time trying to get some good reg combination going on a pneumag project that won't be as seamless as a palmers? Could it be?

2. Anyone have both and care to compare them for me? Action, maintenance, price, performance?

3. Does anyone have a blazer? If so how are the stock barrels? Ever have timing issues?

Thanks in advance for your responses.
Mat

I have a stock blazer and an eblazer with an E2 board and MQ valve. I love them both. The Eblazer rips, but so does the mechnical Blazer. The Palmer barrels are great. They are a little heavy, but no big deal. I have several mags and they rip too. So, I'm fortunate to have both and play with either depending on my taste for the day. You can't go wrong with either.

Mike

[wjr]

I've got both a blazer and an automag that's about to be pneumagged. I didn't like my blazer so much at first, but it's since grown on me. The stock PPS barrels are really nice, though the unported ones are very loud.

I'll be able to make a better comparison after I get my pneumag completed (sometime this week! I can't wait).

I'll also test her on co2 for ya.

[turbo chicken]

both are very reliable guns ...blazer as you already know is quite a bit more expensive than a mag ... just on price point i'd go with a used mag

Maintence and Ease of use is on the same playing field for the two ... both have great support and are rather easy to fix if you have any issues ...

look at the testimonials on pbreview.com for each they both have awesome ratings... why not try before you buy ??

personally i say mag ... they are just plain cheaper ... if i could afford a blazer i'd still have a mag as my backup ...



The only stopping point i can think of with a mag is cold weather ... i have issues with my mag in temps less than 50* when firing fast as i can ... and no i don't use an anitsiphon or a remote i know i'd probably fix those issues but just haven't gotten around to getting either.

[custar]

I have Blazers, Typhoons, and mags. I have a recently-received pneumag, but I haven't had a change to give it a good test yet. All have advantages and disadvantages. All are built like tanks and rather reliable. The Blazers and typhoon have no trouble with CO2, even at high rates of fire. I can't assess the pneumag on that point yet. The pneumag has significantly softer trigger pull which I think will translate to higher ROF. That's not a big issue for me, though. If I want sheer speed, I'm going with my Viking. All my Mags and Blazers have good accuracy. The Mags have better selection of barrels, but I don't notice a lot of difference in accuracy in spite of this. I think the barrel I like best on my Blazers is a turned down Lapco anyway. All said, it's close to a dead heat.

Now, if you want to run your high speed pneumag on CO2, you should be able to run a female Stabilizer turned almost all the way out to keep liquid CO2 out of your mag. IIRC, a Stabilizer can pass about 850 or better psi.

Prices on mags vary widely and depend on configuration. You can find them from $80.00 used up to $700.00 or more for a nice e-mag. There are a couple of used Blazers on the Palmer's site for $300.00 or $325.00. Add $75.00 for a Stabilizer, and you should be set.

Palmer's Blazer barrels are available from 8" to 12" IIRC. However, since Palmer's is a custom shop, you can order a barrel just about any length you want. Also, Palmer's or other competent machine shops can turn down many barrels to fit a Blazer.

IMHO, one of the biggest differences between the two is Mags are easier to work on. Blazers can be a bit tricky. If you are a tinkerer, Mags can be customized more easily, also.

custar

[matteusz]

I've got both a blazer and an automag that's about to be pneumagged. I didn't like my blazer so much at first, but it's since grown on me. The stock PPS barrels are really nice, though the unported ones are very loud.

I'll be able to make a better comparison after I get my pneumag completed (sometime this week! I can't wait).

I'll also test her on co2 for ya.

Thanks man you rock.

[matteusz]

ah so nice to know there are some people out there with my taste in having lots of guns around and some good advice to boot. So I have several mags. I can't stand not to make people jealous at least once in a blue moon soooo . . . I picked up a classic with a bunch of gear and a brand new x-chamber off a guy working in a store that was selling lots on ebay. Turns out he bought it back in the day and put an autoresponse on it. And what did I pay for the little gem complete with a decent barrel? 55$ for the whole deal including shipping! Ten years out of use. I take three orings out of my kit and replace the on/ of bottom ring and the power tube tip ring. Gas her up and tear into the poor suckers at the next game. Granted it is like thumb wrestling with a gorilla when you first pull the trigger but for a cheap fast mag you can't touch it. I feel bad though so I think I am gonna send the guy a few bucks more.

I digress. Yeah mags easy to tinker on and I could put a palmers stab on and go with a pneumag setup BUT I am not sure that is cheaper.

90$ for the pneukit
50-75$ for stab depending on used/ new
80$-150+ for the gun (since that is what I have paid for all the others 5 mags total) and who is gonna setup a beater to be a pneumag and I need a frame other than a benchy. The list goes on and I am already at a cheap end of 220 ish PLUS the time. If I am paitient I can get a blazer for what 400 with a good barrel and bam I am done (er I have a new format of gun to upgrade and scare the neighbors with). So really it sounds like other than the potential to spend more on the palmers (barrels second stab blah blah blah) They are way different but perform about the same?

I want to hear more on the pneumag operations. It really seems like I would be trying to do what palmers has been doing for years but with a mag. Further thoughts? I am looking forward to hearing test results.
Mat

[Walrus]

If it helps, I have owned many markers (Line SI Bushmaster; PMI-3; VMX; '97 Autococker; KP-3; Enforcer 2; Spyder Sonix; Monteneel Z-1; PGP 2K; BBT Typhoon; 2k1 SP Impulse; SP MiniMag; another PMI-3; VM-Magnum; Blazer; Pump MiniMag; Thrasher ULE Emag; Cool Camo Micromag, '94 Evolution Minicocker, '95 Evolution Autococker). As you can see I have had experience with Cockers, Mags, and Palmers. I love them all, but it all comes down to what you want and how you want to play. If you want to throw some paint, then I would do the Pneumag with HPA. If you want to use CO2 and you have an all-round playing style, then I would go Blazer or pre-99 Cocker.

I used to use only CO2, but changed when I got my X-valved Mag over a year and a half ago; and I sold off my Impulse and Blazer to buy my first ULE Mag. The Blazer I had I acquired through a trade when I traded of my Typhoon. At times I still wish I had the Blazer, but I am perfectly content with my two Evolution Autocockers and my Emag. The Blazer and Typhoon were functionality like an Autococker, but both the Typhoon and the Blazer felt different to me than an Autococker does.

The Blazer was stock so it was easy on CO2 (had heavy sheridan type springs), and I would rather have had something with a lighter trigger pull. Granted I could have changed out springs and tinkered with it, but I had Mag feaver and there was no turning back for me. It had the stock brass barred with dual spiral porting and I could place shots one on top of another and it had a good ROF. So the only reason I opted to get rid of the Blazer was because of two reasons...it had a heavier trigger pull and I couldn't get used to the slip fit barrel because it would fall out on me. I would had the screw tightened down to what I thought was too much, but I guess a swollen or bigger ball was loaded and it managed to push the barrel out of the breech area. Again, it was probably user mistake, but I just couldn't get used to the slip fit barrel. Between a Cocker and a Blazer, my personal preference is a Cocker. But I still like the compactness and quality of the Blazer. The Blazer without a barrel (just the body) was about the size of my hand or smaller. With a big drop forward it seemed tiny! And as previously stated, Palmers can make almost any size barrel, but they will recommend a 12" as it is the best size for all-round used and accuracy.

Unfortunately I do not have a Pneumag, but I could take an educated guess and say that it shoots faster than a stock mag and doesn't require the electronics of the Emag. However to keep up with the high ROF, I am sure it is suggested to use HPA.

Also, if you are wanting to play when it is cold outside, CO2 just doesn't compare to HPA.

So as you can see it is all based on personal preference and style of play. I would venture to say if you want to shoot fast and don't care about air-supply, then go with a Pnuemag. If you are stuck using CO2, then I would suggest the Blazer or pre-2k Cocker (although a classic Mag with the proper setup will also work). And, if you want a lighter softer trigger than a stock Mag and stock Blazer and still use CO2, then go with an Autococker.

Lastly if you consider price and you are buying new, then a new ULE Mag with ULT and X valve is about the same cost as a new Blazer w/no Stabilizer. If you are buying used, then as you know Mags are all over the price scale but we will say around $300-$350 for basic setup, Blazers will be around $350 for a basic setup, and Cockers are again all over but are below $200 for a basic setup.

Good luck with your hunt, I know it took me a while to finally decide on what I wanted (and at times I am still deciding) but after 15 years of playing I am back to the basics...Mags and Cockers. And like everyone else's advice, try before you buy if you can. Feel free to PM me with any questions.

[wjr]

I promised an answer... better late then never. I've now done some very extensive testing on pneumags with co2.

Blazer
-Never had any problems what so ever
-Shot super fast, but not walkable (duh)

Pneumag w/ co2
-Unexpected leaks
-hoses would get frosty (I would presume thus shortening their life)
-I completelty destroyed one msv-2 because of it
-Bolt would actually feeze and get stuck
-It was easier to short stroke
-Had troubles firing in long strings

Pneumag w/ air
Holy crud! I didn't know it could do that! It was like an entirely different gun. I really can't explain it. All I know is that with co2, it was kinda impressive. With air, it was amazing. :shooting:

[matteusz]

I promised an answer... better late then never. I've now done some very extensive testing on pneumags with co2.

Pneumag w/ air
Holy crud! I didn't know it could do that! It was like an entirely different gun. I really can't explain it. All I know is that with co2, it was kinda impressive. With air, it was amazing. :shooting:


Yeah I had kinda come to the conclusion that if I am gonna shoot anything really fast I might as well do some extensive upgrading and get air and the parts to build a pneumag. I figure that way I can maintain control over the gun's performance and get that super short trigger pull and rate of fire. Besides for the price I can come closer to affording air with a pnuemag by buying parts over time and building to the better valve frame etc instead of all at once for a blazer. Thanks so much for the testing and the thread resurrection. I love having an AO forum to communicate on. You guys rock. THanks so much for the feedback!

[Thotograph]

i know this forum is to compare blazers to pneumags but i think i have some interesting perspective to add...

i've got a rt and an e-cocker (99STO on steroids, evo ram w/ qev's etc. crazy fast!!) i like both but honestly i prefer my RT... and it has a stock single trigger frame (with a ult though)

i was all about going to a pneumag but now that i've been playing with different input pressures etc. i'm contemplating selling the cocker... 850 psi on an x-valve tuned right with lvl 10 and ult is un-freaking believable! the pull is nothing, miniscule at best! but for real it kicks my finger back so much so it's kinda hard to hold the trigger down without making a conscious effort. it rains paint when i want but also rocks the occasional snap shot like a champ.

so my advice is keep it simple... i worked really hard and spent alot of dough to get my cocker where it's at, and my mag is, for me, my first choice when i'm going out to play. i kno pretty well how to work on/maintain the cocker, i put the whole thing together myself, but it's the fact that i won't have to work on jack when i play my rt for 10 solid hours in one day... all i'll need to do is clean it a little and relube, and it's almost just as fast... a pneumag conv. would make it faster but i can't see a reason for needing more speed than this.

as for accuracy i can't tell a difference... i will say it's really nice not having to estimate the average size of a batch of paint so that it matches the barrel to the t!!! i just make sure they fall through without rolling around and thats it... makes it way better on gas that way and is plently accurate. to me the closed bolt doesn't provide any advantage, and it's not quieter at all.

at most i'm going to get a double trigger and install that on the stock frame. maybe an intelli is in my future but i doubt it. for now i know the cocker is gonna just lay there and look great. kinda like my ex-girlfriend always did...

lol come to think of it they're both high maintenence and they both cost me alot of money!

peace,
trevor


"i said dance!"
^
:shooting: :dance:

[p8ntbal4me]

i know this forum is to compare blazers to pneumags but i think i have some interesting perspective to add...

i've got a rt and an e-cocker (99STO on steroids, evo ram w/ qev's etc. crazy fast!!) i like both but honestly i prefer my RT... and it has a stock single trigger frame (with a ult though)

i was all about going to a pneumag but now that i've been playing with different input pressures etc. i'm contemplating selling the cocker... 850 psi on an x-valve tuned right with lvl 10 and ult is un-freaking believable! the pull is nothing, miniscule at best! but for real it kicks my finger back so much so it's kinda hard to hold the trigger down without making a conscious effort. it rains paint when i want but also rocks the occasional snap shot like a champ.

so my advice is keep it simple... i worked really hard and spent alot of dough to get my cocker where it's at, and my mag is, for me, my first choice when i'm going out to play. i kno pretty well how to work on/maintain the cocker, i put the whole thing together myself, but it's the fact that i won't have to work on jack when i play my rt for 10 solid hours in one day... all i'll need to do is clean it a little and relube, and it's almost just as fast... a pneumag conv. would make it faster but i can't see a reason for needing more speed than this.

as for accuracy i can't tell a difference... i will say it's really nice not having to estimate the average size of a batch of paint so that it matches the barrel to the t!!! i just make sure they fall through without rolling around and thats it... makes it way better on gas that way and is plently accurate. to me the closed bolt doesn't provide any advantage, and it's not quieter at all.

at most i'm going to get a double trigger and install that on the stock frame. maybe an intelli is in my future but i doubt it. for now i know the cocker is gonna just lay there and look great. kinda like my ex-girlfriend always did...

lol come to think of it they're both high maintenence and they both cost me alot of money!

peace,
trevor


"i said dance!"
^
:shooting: :dance:

What do you have for a frame on your cocker?? Reason I ask is,... you think your gun is fast now,... tell me you have an E-blade or wOrr Blade, Ill give you some settings,.. and I think you'll keep your cocker!

My brother got a DYE Reflex cocker with an E1 board in it. He let me have it for a day or 2 and on the day of playing at the field,... he shot 1 hopper off the cocker and put his E-Mag back in his bag. The thing is REDICULOUSLY FAST!!!! Like,... no way to be field legal fast!

The cocker SHOULD be more accurate. At high ROF I think it will spread more,.. but the shot pattern should be tighter than an R/T rapid firing for sure. (so says the data on the thred TK made about the various guns and shot patterns posted somewhere here on the AO)

Im doing a pneumag mod when my airwalk comes in. I think it will be a nice way to run my mag this comming season. I dont agree with the first posts in running CO2 into cockers and pneumags where there are QEVs, hoses, smaller o-rings, etc. I think thats asking for trouble. Do the guns work, of course! Cockers and mags have always worked. I just hated the days where liquid CO2 couldbe seen running from my 3-way to the ram,... and the expansion chambers were a nice frosty white. Todays preset HPA bottles pay for themselves in 1 season,.... using it 1 more season after that and you already have saved money.

Keeping it simple like you said, says it all. I think thats why I like mags over my other guns,.. simple... and simple works!

[Thotograph]

[QUOTE=p8ntbal4me]What do you have for a frame on your cocker?? Reason I ask is,... you think your gun is fast now,... tell me you have an E-blade or wOrr Blade, Ill give you some settings,.. and I think you'll keep your cocker!



haha ok so i think you're onto me here... reason i say that is i have the worrframe :( so i think my opinion would be swayed a little if i had adjustable computer controlled timing. if (and when) i replace it with an e2 off someone's predilled so and so... and do a little swapy swap. then i'll be livin. still, like you reitterated (and now i will do the same... again), i prefer to keep it simple :cool:

the accuracy may be slightly better with the cocker, but it's not enough for me to really notice. i think the quality of the paint along with decent barrel match is really the crucial determining factor for accuracy(consistency). bottom line is if you are a good shot and your gun is consistent thats what matters on the field.

if i could emplore a trigger frame on the sto that i truely trusted then my opinion would sway about what to do next with it.

i guess what's really up with me is that i'm old school at heart, but i also like technology to an extent. i started playing about ten years ago (when i was 12 first gun was a mag) and have been into it ever since. i'm not after the fastest possible rof. i'm just looking for quality, peace of mind, ease of use, and consistency. the speed is a bonus for me, and one that i'll rarely tap into. speedball has great profitability, but i don't own a field. if i had a chioce i'd play 80% in the woods and such, but it's just not feesable. at least i don't really know of any surviving outdoor fields in orlando with some traditional fields/games etc. there is wayne's world, rad place, but it's a hike so special occasions only. i'd start ranting more about this subject but this isn't the place. if anyone knows of any other fields like i described in central florida maybe they could pm me...

peace,
trevor

:ninja:

[p8ntbal4me]

Does your wOrr Blade have settings like (CDEL, COFF, DWELL, etc)???

I havent used a wOrr Blade yet so I wouldnt know,.. but if you have settings like these on the board,... give me the list and I will get you some values to try.

[Thotograph]

Does your wOrr Blade have settings like (CDEL, COFF, DWELL, etc)???

I havent used a wOrr Blade yet so I wouldnt know,.. but if you have settings like these on the board,... give me the list and I will get you some values to try.


to be clear... the worrblade was availible a while ago and was an eclispe e frame (i believe it may have been the e1 w/ a zero-b) packaged with a bolt and hammer upgrade from wgp (may have been other items like a ram as well). so this had adjustable timing and i'm sure is nice... i do not have this...

i have the worrframe, and it does not have any sort of timing adjustability other than the firing mode (psp, 3 shot psp, millenium,and nppl semi) and if the eye is on or off (if it's uhh not installed like mine then you get the picture...) for me i'm not going to drill my frame because i don't want to... i know it'd work much better and not chop but i'm not really into drilling holes in this gun. it's too cool looking for me. i think it changes the defaults with the eye off to try to minimize likelyhood of a chop but it just scares me.

honestly i just wish it had a classic mode where it would sync with the pull and release like it used too in the uhh other mode it was in, i'm simple minded i guess so simple things make me happy. the e2 would be great but it's a bit rare these days and therefore expensive. i'm gonna probably hold out and find a complete with a frame and do a swap and sell.

i love mags, and i love cockers... for different reasons. one appeals to me because it's a tank, and the other is alot of fun to tinker with and build up. to bring this full circle; i've always been a huge fan of palmers, and i would jump at a blazer or e-blazer in a heartbeat. they are like the ultimate of what both the mag and cocker have to offer. i just wished i could have it be threaded for cocker barrels so that ALL my barrels fit it. i talked to one of the employees at palmers and they said it's most likely possible but they aren't willing to do it or something like that. which is cool, i certainly trust that they know what they're doing. i do have a couple twist locks that i could get turned down... but their barrels are very high quality. still, what the heck am i saying??? i don't need another gun.

i just want one :)

peace,
trevor

[SR_matt]

if you are going to insist on running co2 the blazer will be able to do it with out having to set up anything more and end up spending less money (to run co2 on your mag you need an anti syphon and at least one palmers stab to keep liquid out (2 would be better) but then you have to worry about shoot down becasue it gets starved).

running co2 on higher end guns with tempermental parts you need to end up spending as much cash as just buying an hpa tank. unless hpa is imposiable to get there is no reason to not use it over co2 on the highend/high rate of fire guns.

personaly i use co2 on my pump gun, palmers stab and gas thru, i get +- 2 fps as long as i dont let it sit for a while (if i do the fps will drop down to 250's instead of upper 270s but just for the first shot, havent figured that one out yet).


co2 will end up working better on the blazer IMHO.
-matt

[Thotograph]

co2 will end up working better on the blazer IMHO.
-matt

i agree with matt. the blazer would be the best choice for co2... it's rock solid like the mag but doesn't have as many orings to freeze up.

i would say that in my own past experiance the classic mag i used to own didn't like back bottle with an expansion chamber so i ran it remote and then i never had issues after that. occasionally my butt would get cold and i would get some shootdown with rapid firing, but it worked quite well.

[matteusz]

i agree with matt. the blazer would be the best choice for co2... it's rock solid like the mag but doesn't have as many orings to freeze up.

i would say that in my own past experiance the classic mag i used to own didn't like back bottle with an expansion chamber so i ran it remote and then i never had issues after that. occasionally my butt would get cold and i would get some shootdown with rapid firing, but it worked quite well.


Yeah the blazer for simplicity and running co2 at a higher rate of fire probably would be my weapon of choice. However I am going to SLOWER rate of fire and so what more than a mag do I need? I may even end up playing more with a stock class marker and I find skill more attractive than spending $ on paint. All the same for HPA and higher rate of fire I would rather have a pneumag that can go fast and more can be done. Thanks all Mat

[SR_matt]

i think you might have misundserstood. the blazer can handle co2 going through it faster because the way it just deals with it better, ther pneumag wont preform as well probably just because the way it functions and the psi requirements
-matt

[matteusz]

i think you might have misundserstood. the blazer can handle co2 going through it faster because the way it just deals with it better, ther pneumag wont preform as well probably just because the way it functions and the psi requirements
-matt


No I get it. I am talking about running air on a pneumag (read the post more carefully) for really high rates of fire. The blazer does great (even though PPS recommends stablizers for co2 use) to a point but if you want to shoot past say 15 bps a pnuemag on HPA would be a better choice IMHO. Since the mag can shoot faster and do more. But no I get it blazer better on CO2 but WITH a stablizer. As is I would rather shoot a mag on a remote like I do now.

[p8ntbal4me]

Not that this would be crazy efficiancy over just throwing a HPA bottle on the pneumag,...

But you could set up a remote bottle or an on-gun setup to split the feed on the pneumag internals to go through a Stably, in-line filter, etc to prevent the liquid build up at high ROF.

Personally I agree with the not using CO2 on the pneumag setup for reasons listed above.

But if your going to run C02,... you could always filter and run it inline a bunch of times to help it expand as much as possible.

Just an idea.

[SR_matt]

sorry bout that matt, i saw that after you posted again

p8ntbal4me, filters mostly were more hype and didnt work right (from eveything ive seen and the little experance i had ). if liquid gets to it your gona get it through or its gona totaly freeze up for the most up. co2 is a lot cleaner than peopel give it credit also, tha tanks dont (or at elast shouldnt have) any corosion in the them and its pure co2 so theres no dirt in it (or at least less than hpa that was compressed on sight)

-matt

[p8ntbal4me]

sorry bout that matt, i saw that after you posted again

p8ntbal4me, filters mostly were more hype and didnt work right (from eveything ive seen and the little experance i had ). if liquid gets to it your gona get it through or its gona totaly freeze up for the most up. co2 is a lot cleaner than peopel give it credit also, tha tanks dont (or at elast shouldnt have) any corosion in the them and its pure co2 so theres no dirt in it (or at least less than hpa that was compressed on sight)

-matt


I think were in the same boat as far as knowledge in this department goes.

I do have a inline filter from PTP on my Sniper 2 and my Classic Mini Mag. The filter has been on both since time began so over the years I have not noticed much difference in the performance upon switching to HPA.

I do clean the filter out every year like it said to in the instructions,.. but its kinda a self check (C02 has never deposited gunk in the filter,.. but I clean it anyways)

Most of the places I go to get my tanks filled double filter the compressed gas before going into the bulk tanks. My local dive shop allows me to fill off the NOX side of the compressor, which according to the owner is at a minimum of 4x filtration plus some other stuff in the tanks. So I dont have a real issue with dirty air getting into my tanks.

What I was thinking of was back when HPA was not on the market yet and I had my mini mag setup on remote. It went from a 20oz CO2 bottle to an ASA, into a horizontal vert hardline that had another ASA with a 4 stage expansion chamber on it. Then it dumped out the top of tha to a 1/8 remote coil mamba line to a duck bill with quick disco. From there it went to a 1/8 hardline into the bottom of another vert. 4 stage expansion chamber that mounted into the ASA on the gun,... then ran a line from the ASA through the PTP inline filter, quick disco., then the valve.

I wish I had a photo but I dont. You can get the idea. That was a typical remote setup for classic valved mags back then. I had VERY little issues when I fired fast. (remember,.. fast back then was 9BPS!!!!)

I know a field owner that had the (or one of the) origninal Glenn Palmer Blazer proto-types. It had some issues,.. but yes,... it worked awesome on co2. I would venture to say that it was the best gun on co2 at the time.

I know the basics and maybe a bit more only because I follow the sport in detail for my own gain. I hardly run co2 now only because its expensive.

[SR_matt]

hmm your lucky, dive shop air is gona be much cleaner (since it legaly must be cleaner) than most air at fields.

i had a rather indepth argument with my friend about how co2 will work an ony gun with the right reg set up but he woudltn listen, supposedly co2 is dirty and hpa compressors have so many scrubers and filters to make the air very clean... ya right, a pure gas has mroe dirt than air that was pulled from the surrounding area and ran through a cheap filter system that didnt pull everything out and hasnt been empied by the guy "running" it lately
-matt

[Thotograph]

lol, i hope dive air is clean... :cool: when i'm 2 or 3 atm's down i don't want to think about what i'm breathing in... only real concern is how much longer do i have to be breathing this stuff before i should be riding up the water column towards air that isn't compressed into a cylinder for my breathing pleasure. hmm not a bad idea to get fills from a scuba shop... i might try that. what pressure can they fill up to?

i just got a classic valve for just in case there's no air available, and also to build a "friends gun" or potentially to build a project i've been thinking of... (bull-pup styled pneumag w/ a qloader) you never know... once i start replacing a few things on my rt that i got i'll have this spare mag sorted out... i think i'm gonna get a luke's vert feed mod done to a classic feed body... more or less i miss shooting my two favorite twist lock barrels that i've hung onto (pmi perfect 11in and a 10in dye stainless)

[SR_matt]

lol, i hope dive air is clean... :cool: when i'm 2 or 3 atm's down i don't want to think about what i'm breathing in... only real concern is how much longer do i have to be breathing this stuff before i should be riding up the water column towards air that isn't compressed into a cylinder for my breathing pleasure. hmm not a bad idea to get fills from a scuba shop... i might try that. what pressure can they fill up to?

i just got a classic valve for just in case there's no air available, and also to build a "friends gun" or potentially to build a project i've been thinking of... (bull-pup styled pneumag w/ a qloader) you never know... once i start replacing a few things on my rt that i got i'll have this spare mag sorted out... i think i'm gonna get a luke's vert feed mod done to a classic feed body... more or less i miss shooting my two favorite twist lock barrels that i've hung onto (pmi perfect 11in and a 10in dye stainless)
dive shops fill to 3000 at least, some people use 4500 tanks and from what i have heard (not into diving, done it once but got to many hobbies) the 4500 are not as common

-matt

[p8ntbal4me]

hmm your lucky, dive shop air is gona be much cleaner (since it legaly must be cleaner) than most air at fields.

i had a rather indepth argument with my friend about how co2 will work an ony gun with the right reg set up but he woudltn listen, supposedly co2 is dirty and hpa compressors have so many scrubers and filters to make the air very clean... ya right, a pure gas has mroe dirt than air that was pulled from the surrounding area and ran through a cheap filter system that didnt pull everything out and hasnt been empied by the guy "running" it lately
-matt


I was just watching the 68Automag video with TK in it from 1992,...

He mentioned the "phenomenon" called "Dirty Co2" in the video.

He says it was due to rusting occuring inside the bottles and not the thought that Co2 was "dirty".

I always get a kick out of watching the videos from the old days! :clap:

[SR_matt]

ya that is a problem but if the supplier checks their tanks correctly it should be an exteamly rare- non existant thing

-matt

[Thotograph]

right on... yeah between photography, music, and paintball i don't have any room for diving either but i'm certified. it's still an amazing feeling to be breathing underwater... how'd you like your experience? were you in the ocean or freshwater? there's nothing like diving on a reef. i bet scuba shops would be pretty cheap for fills. i can't stand the shops that charge for 4500 but only get it up to around 3k once it cools... i don't think i've ever had a fill go all the way to 4500 (even right after it got filled). any idea if moisture in the air could affect a regulator or bottle? could it build up in the tank?

what would be the best configuration for running co2 on a classic mag? i'd think a remote and then perhaps an expansion but anyone got the handle on this? i've got a remote (and i think a stock as well) and i'm planning on getting a 20oz for just in case co2 is all that is available at a field. how should i run it? i'm thinking just hook up a remote and my AGD bike handle style gas thru foregrip will help a little with expanding it.

[SR_matt]

right on... yeah between photography, music, and paintball i don't have any room for diving either but i'm certified. it's still an amazing feeling to be breathing underwater... how'd you like your experience? were you in the ocean or freshwater? there's nothing like diving on a reef. i bet scuba shops would be pretty cheap for fills. i can't stand the shops that charge for 4500 but only get it up to around 3k once it cools... i don't think i've ever had a fill go all the way to 4500 (even right after it got filled). any idea if moisture in the air could affect a regulator or bottle? could it build up in the tank?

what would be the best configuration for running co2 on a classic mag? i'd think a remote and then perhaps an expansion but anyone got the handle on this? i've got a remote (and i think a stock as well) and i'm planning on getting a 20oz for just in case co2 is all that is available at a field. how should i run it? i'm thinking just hook up a remote and my AGD bike handle style gas thru foregrip will help a little with expanding it.
i went diving in hawaii (me and my bro went along with them for their 30th anneversery casue my dad had an insance amount of hotel and ticket points) we went in maui, it was great, the dive master fed a turtle out of his hand, the 3rd time hes done it in like his 20 years of diving.

moisture, unless an insane amount, shouldnt be to bad espicaly if its just what was in the air out side, it shoudlnt build up in the tank, and if it does condense you could probably tip it upside down and try to vent (probably nto good procedure but if you cant get it out any other way).

the set up you aer planing sounds fine, you might want to try to get a expansion chamber not a gas through just incase but you should be fine.

-matt

[matteusz]

i went diving in hawaii (me and my bro went along with them for their 30th anneversery casue my dad had an insance amount of hotel and ticket points) we went in maui, it was great, the dive master fed a turtle out of his hand, the 3rd time hes done it in like his 20 years of diving.

moisture, unless an insane amount, shouldnt be to bad espicaly if its just what was in the air out side, it shoudlnt build up in the tank, and if it does condense you could probably tip it upside down and try to vent (probably nto good procedure but if you cant get it out any other way).

the set up you aer planing sounds fine, you might want to try to get a expansion chamber not a gas through just incase but you should be fine.

-matt


I tried it with an x chamber and the bottle on a drop and had problems. With a remote and an expansion I do just fine in 60 deg plus weather. I found some cheap in line expansion chambers on ebay and put one on my remote so it goes tank, inline chamber, chamber on gun then valve. I have one gun with a response trigger and I can rip with it all I want and no problems. I think the bike grip might not be sufficient if you are shooting lots or fast or in cold weather but otherwise a remote setup and you are good.

[Thotograph]

i got ya... i'm only gonna have this setup for plan b so i'm not trying to optimize it's just gotta work... looks like i sold the gas tru stock :( so i'll have to pick up another b/c i def want a stock if i'm running remote. however i'm at the cocktail napkin phase of designing a bull-pup style pneumag. pm me if you have any ideas for how to set that up... i'm gonna start my own thread for discussing that. know anyone that could mill me a custom rail?

maui sounds amazing for diving... really cool about the turtle... i got certified in the bahamas and that was a blast... been to some springs and other dives since but i want to go back to the islands really bad. i'd need to update my equipment (no scuba only a freediving setup) b/c my fins are shot :(