Silly question about supply, demand and obsolescence

[DaFin]

Hi all,

Lately there have been a couple of threads that have made me think "why?". The three threads that I am talking about are The Jersey and SFL threads in this forum and the Cocker to Mag barrel adapter thread in the BST area. For each of these items there seems to be significant demand amoung the membership of this community yet no one is producing these. What ever demand may exist probably would carry outside of these forums given a modest advertising attempt. What I am trying to say is that all of these items *seem* to be economically viable on small scales yet they are no longer produced, why?

So, since this is a discussion board....

Am I being blinded by my perspective or is this a missed oportunity?

What other paintball related items do you think fall into this category?

[jenarelJAM]

Well, I know the SFL's are worth so much because there are so few of them, not because they are specifically superior to the xmag. You can't make more of them. You just can't.

I dunno about the others.

[REDRT]

Don't forget colored Xvalves.
:( There isn't much of a market for any of it. You get people all saying they want something and if it gets made, very few of the many even buy it. It just is bad business to make things that may not sell or have to sell at a loss. Yeah it sucks I know. Many cool things have come and gone, but that is life. One can only hope to experience what they can while they can. You want to experience some of the past? Save money and when it comes up for sale buy it... ;)

[VFX_Fenix]

You're basically dealing with a niche market with a base of users who have aging equipment in the case of Twistlock barrels and Stainless Bodies. People who don't want the ULE bodies or just preffer the Twistlock bodies are forced into a corner, because of a lack of support in the Industry for the twistlock, they must find different avenues to persue new barrels if the barrels readily avalible in the used market place aren't to their taste.

AO Jerseys are, what you might call, a novelty item. Being that there aren't any other forums that come to mind that have signature Jerseys that I'm aware of (PBN, A5OG, SACPB).

And SFL's are just a rare item, like the AGD Six-Pack, Micro CA, BOA barrels of all types, KP rifles, and a load of other curio and antequated gear.

[GT]

:rofl: :rofl: I love to hear the niche market excuse. Lets put mags into perspective, by my estimates ther are well over 200K classic mags, 3-5k rtpro's/rt's, and 1k emag/xmags. To say that there is a niche market is complete crap.


Riddle me this, how is it that CCI can offer about 2 dozen different colors while AGD can offer only black?


:spit_take

[REDRT]

Riddle me this, how is it that CCI can offer about 2 dozen different colors while AGD can offer only black?


:spit_take

They used to offer colors until they entered the niche market. :p

[Doc Nickel]

[...] and the Cocker to Mag barrel adapter thread in the BST area.

-Because it costs me at a minimum of $2,000 to $3,000 to have a small run of them made, and then it takes me a year or more to sell them all, effectively making me about $20 a month in profit.

I've found that if ten people say they're going to buy something or want me to make something, as soon as I do, two of them, maybe, will actually make the purchase.

Tom Kaye found out the exact same thing with the roller triggers, didn't he? Huge demand, everyone wanted one... until he made them. Then, no buyers. Not one, after the initial prototype batch. He eventually sold them off at scrap prices to someone, as I recall.

Now, that said, there's another short run of my adapters in the works. The shop gave me a time frame of no more than 90 days, and that was at the beginning of December. I wasn't going to announce anything until I had them in my hands, since I'm already pretty bad with time estimates and deadlines.

If you want one, hang tough, I'll have some hopefully before the end of February.

Doc.

[Doc Nickel]

Riddle me this, how is it that CCI can offer about 2 dozen different colors while AGD can offer only black?

-I was under the impression that CCI was closely affiliated with an ano shop, if not actually owning or being part owner in the shop.

Remember that Mike Cassidy's (CCI) main business is making, among other things, dental tools. The paintball biz is a fair portion of their work, but still essentially a "side job".

Doc.

[CoolHand]

And that pretty much covers it.

Been there, done that, have the hole in my check book to prove it.

/thread

[Tao]

Hi all,

Lately there have been a couple of threads that have made me think "why?". The three threads that I am talking about are The Jersey and SFL threads in this forum and the Cocker to Mag barrel adapter thread in the BST area. For each of these items there seems to be significant demand amoung the membership of this community yet no one is producing these. What ever demand may exist probably would carry outside of these forums given a modest advertising attempt. What I am trying to say is that all of these items *seem* to be economically viable on small scales yet they are no longer produced, why?

So, since this is a discussion board....

Am I being blinded by my perspective or is this a missed oportunity?

What other paintball related items do you think fall into this category?

It may not necessarily be an issue of supply and demand but one of opportunity cost. Are the $$/day worth it?
Can I go into a bigger market which is simmilar and make more money instead?
It could be that whoever did it ended up competing with the ule bodies.

[GT]

This is getting easier everytimne someone posts it. I think you guys store up your response on clipboard and then drop them in :rofl: I toil and I build...........build, build............ and build but no one buys. I have heard that sob story for the last 3 years on AO.

We all know AGD MAKES a great product but fails to SELL a great product.


Teacher, pick me! Me! I have the answer to the riddle?!

1) Oh, how we forget. AGD tried that with the XMag & PK selective, it was a disaster.It was also too difficult, as the body and breech were difficult to match on the XMag because they were made from different aluminum alloys.

2) AGD didnt offer aluminum bodies, valves, and frames until post-2000. CCI has for much longer. So, AGD doesnt have an established relationship that is over a decade old with an ano shop that gives them price breaks on individual markers.

3) Besides the Xmag, the halves of the xvalve and the ule body on a mag are made from 3 different 7000 series aluminum alloys that anodize differently.

Did I solve the riddle?

The xmag? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: , someone has been doing it longer, and parts are made from different materials. Lets all watch as the train passes us by.


Remember that Mike Cassidy's (CCI) main business is making, among other things, dental tools. The paintball biz is a fair portion of their work, but still essentially a "side job".

DOC doesnt AGD have a good portion of thier buisness wrapped up in less than lethal products? I can't espouse the the buisness of AGD but it would seem that paitnball is thier side gig as well.

Do you have the same rate of return with your other items?

[slade]

For each of these items there seems to be significant demand amoung the membership of this community yet no one is producing these.
demand for product = opportunity to earn money.
internet demand for product =/ oportunity to earn money.

a few people want something, a lot of people voice interest, but it is not cost effective to produce the part.

[thegrayghost]

unless you have a real hot selling item, you will not sell it...in our Forum, we tried our specialized logos on caps, coffee mugs, stickers, shirts, sandana's, barrel socks, etc...i could go on and on.......everyone wanted one, but when time to buy, no shows...we flunked out on everything for selling...

when someone puts up the start up costs and you have to eat it time after time, it gets old...everyone means well when saying i will purchase, but the final is no shows/no purchase as to speak....just my 2 cents worth...thegrayghost...

[Doc Nickel]

Okay, here's the deal. Ready? Take notes:

It Costs Money To Make Things.

Got that? Here's the next part:

People Won't Pay Too Much For Things.

Those two go together like cake and ice cream.

What does that mean? Put it this way: If I went out to the shop, right now, and made myself, from scratch, one- just one- of my barrel adapters, it'd take me probably around five hours, from bar stock to finished, salable product. I usually (try to) charge $40 an hour for miscellaneous machine work- and that's cheap!

But even half that is still $100.

You'd pay $100 for a barrel adapter? No, you won't. I know this for a fact, because I've been asked several times to make an alternate-thread adapter (usually Angel.) Typically I quoted $90 to $95, and no one, ever, took me up on it. "Too expensive". For that price, they could buy a new barrel, or toss a few bucks more in and buy a ULE body.

Now, I can have them made in a CNC shop. Easy, quick, often even fast. BUT, it costs a good deal of money just to tool up that CNC. Somebody has to install the cutting tools (and in the right places, and to exactly the right depths, etc.) and somebody has to set up whatever is used to hold the workpiece (chuck jaws, clamps, etc.) and somebody has to chop raw bar stock into small pieces to feed the machine. Then somebody has to write the program and/or generate the CNC code to make the machine cut the correct part, to the correct dimensions.

So you might have two or three days' work, by two or three people making $45 an hour, to outfit a quarter-million-dollar machine with $500 in tooling... before you've even made one single part.

Let's say, for the sake of the argument, that it cost $1,000 to get that machine set up. (That's high for some small parts, but pretty low for larger complex pieces.) If you then have that machine make one single part, that $1,000 cost goes into that one part. Final cost, $1,005 per part.

BUT, if you make a thousand parts, that same $1,000 is split between all of them- final cost, $6 per part.

This is what's called Economy of Scale.

If I buy one foot of stainless bar to make my single adapter from, it might cost me $35. If I buy five hundred feet of bar, I might be able to get it down to $20 per foot. There's more savings.

Long story short: "Production" runs of 200 to 500 parts are absurdly small. My CNC shop hates projects under 1,000 parts, and often doesn't even want to hear about it unless I'm willing to order 5,000.

Those barrel adapters? Typically I've made about $3 to $5 profit each off those. But if I could order 5,000 of them, my cost could plummet down to $3 to $5 each.

That's great! You say. You'd be happy to buy an adapter at, say, $10 street price? Well, to do that, I'd have to order five thousand of them. Even at "only" $3 each, that's Fifteen Thousand Dollars I'd have to cough up.

And considering that in the past three and a half years since I invented the damed thing, I've sold around three hundred, including a grand total of twenty in the last ten months, I'd have enough adapters to last me over fifty years, and it'd take twenty years for me to just make my money back.


That's why you don't see companies like NPS or even AGD jumping right up and producing every little trinket, gadget or invention that somebody thinks up. You, me and Bob over there might think it's really cool, but the guys actually handling the money are going to want to know of we have 4,997 friends that also think that piece is really cool.

Because if not, it's not worth their time to make it.

Yeah, they could just make ten. But those ten would end up costing twenty times more than the mass production part, and no one will buy it. Would you buy, say, a CP reg that cost $300? Or a tank rail that cost $120? Or a barrel that cost $500? No, of course not.

So there's the problem. A problem shared by every company from NPS, with an operating budget in the hundreds of millions, on down to me in my little shop with an operating budget of whatever I can sweep out from under the sofa cushions:

You have a part, it's a cool part, and you have the capacity to make it. But to keep the price down, you have to make thousands of them. And you don't know for sure that there's the demand for thousands. But if you make only enough to support the demand, the per-part price goes up to the point where even the people who want the part won't buy it.

The term, of course, is Catch-22.

Doc.

[GT]

It Costs Money To Make Things.

The term, of course, is Catch-22.

Doc.


Try it some time. Gather some cash, invest in production, and sell to the masses. I will wait to hear the sob story Its always easier to throw stones at the glass house than live in it and watch others throw the stones.

The irony is that my orginial comments were directed at AGD. Everyone understands the diffuculy of the one man shop. What continuly haunts me is AGD's inability to offer all of the products they once did. For example colored Xvalves, Sluggs, etc. despite brand new mag sales. IT sounds like we are headed down SS lane while everyone offers different colors and mills. This smells like the late 90's.

But since you guys asked,
Every year the both of you introduce new products. RFP has those nice new ULE trigger frames, DOC I am on the list for your next fastback run; so as dealers and retialers you guys arent building and selling for free (with exception to the fastbacks). SO if managing multiple product lines are that bad then why continue to develop any product at all? If all this is a continue circle of loss then why bother selling anything at all?

Here is my problem there are a number of people on this board that seem to think that if there product is not bought in X amount of time they consider it a failure and the fault of the consumer.


Its the only way to know for sure, and it will be a good learning experience.

As soon as I can figure out the legal stuff I am all over it.

[Desega]

I wish that you could still get half of the stuff you used to be able to, but paintball is a very quick growing industry and what was top of the line two years ago is obsolete now. That means that they stop making upgrades for that product and move on to their new ones.

[MANN]

Here is my problem there are a number of people on this board that seem to think that if there product is not bought in X amount of time they consider it a failure and the fault of the consumer.

I dont think that they consider it a failure, but more of a waste of money. These guys are not wanting to "front" the money, and then end up with shelf full of parts. It is the whole theory of investment. No one would invest 3K, and wait 3 years to get a 100 dollar return.

If I were a betting man I would say that most custom guys also have a "real" job aside from paintball. This is probally something that they just do for fun.

[FARMER00]

Okay, here's the deal. Ready? Take notes:

It Costs Money To Make Things.

Got that? Here's the next part:

People Won't Pay Too Much For Things.

Those two go together like cake and ice cream.

What does that mean? Put it this way: If I went out to the shop, right now, and made myself, from scratch, one- just one- of my barrel adapters, it'd take me probably around five hours, from bar stock to finished, salable product. I usually (try to) charge $40 an hour for miscellaneous machine work- and that's cheap!

But even half that is still $100.

You'd pay $100 for a barrel adapter? No, you won't. I know this for a fact, because I've been asked several times to make an alternate-thread adapter (usually Angel.) Typically I quoted $90 to $95, and no one, ever, took me up on it. "Too expensive". For that price, they could buy a new barrel, or toss a few bucks more in and buy a ULE body.

Now, I can have them made in a CNC shop. Easy, quick, often even fast. BUT, it costs a good deal of money just to tool up that CNC. Somebody has to install the cutting tools (and in the right places, and to exactly the right depths, etc.) and somebody has to set up whatever is used to hold the workpiece (chuck jaws, clamps, etc.) and somebody has to chop raw bar stock into small pieces to feed the machine. Then somebody has to write the program and/or generate the CNC code to make the machine cut the correct part, to the correct dimensions.

So you might have two or three days' work, by two or three people making $45 an hour, to outfit a quarter-million-dollar machine with $500 in tooling... before you've even made one single part.

Let's say, for the sake of the argument, that it cost $1,000 to get that machine set up. (That's high for some small parts, but pretty low for larger complex pieces.) If you then have that machine make one single part, that $1,000 cost goes into that one part. Final cost, $1,005 per part.

BUT, if you make a thousand parts, that same $1,000 is split between all of them- final cost, $6 per part.

This is what's called Economy of Scale.

If I buy one foot of stainless bar to make my single adapter from, it might cost me $35. If I buy five hundred feet of bar, I might be able to get it down to $20 per foot. There's more savings.

Long story short: "Production" runs of 200 to 500 parts are absurdly small. My CNC shop hates projects under 1,000 parts, and often doesn't even want to hear about it unless I'm willing to order 5,000.

Those barrel adapters? Typically I've made about $3 to $5 profit each off those. But if I could order 5,000 of them, my cost could plummet down to $3 to $5 each.

That's great! You say. You'd be happy to buy an adapter at, say, $10 street price? Well, to do that, I'd have to order five thousand of them. Even at "only" $3 each, that's Fifteen Thousand Dollars I'd have to cough up.

And considering that in the past three and a half years since I invented the damed thing, I've sold around three hundred, including a grand total of twenty in the last ten months, I'd have enough adapters to last me over fifty years, and it'd take twenty years for me to just make my money back.


That's why you don't see companies like NPS or even AGD jumping right up and producing every little trinket, gadget or invention that somebody thinks up. You, me and Bob over there might think it's really cool, but the guys actually handling the money are going to want to know of we have 4,997 friends that also think that piece is really cool.

Because if not, it's not worth their time to make it.

Yeah, they could just make ten. But those ten would end up costing twenty times more than the mass production part, and no one will buy it. Would you buy, say, a CP reg that cost $300? Or a tank rail that cost $120? Or a barrel that cost $500? No, of course not.

So there's the problem. A problem shared by every company from NPS, with an operating budget in the hundreds of millions, on down to me in my little shop with an operating budget of whatever I can sweep out from under the sofa cushions:

You have a part, it's a cool part, and you have the capacity to make it. But to keep the price down, you have to make thousands of them. And you don't know for sure that there's the demand for thousands. But if you make only enough to support the demand, the per-part price goes up to the point where even the people who want the part won't buy it.

The term, of course, is Catch-22.

Doc.


i dont believe this at all. i agree with the part that says stuff costs money and people wont pay for it, but come on it doesnt take 5 hours to make a barrel adapter. im making one at school. it took me 40 mins so far and all i have left is threading it for a cocker barrel.(having troube finding my 15/16-20 tap) but all in all it will have taken me like one hour once im done. why is a master machinst making something that can be easlly completed in an hour by a kid in highschool take 5 hours?

[CoolHand]

i dont believe this at all. i agree with the part that says stuff costs money and people wont pay for it, but come on it doesnt take 5 hours to make a barrel adapter. im making one at school. it took me 40 mins so far and all i have left is threading it for a cocker barrel.(having troube finding my 15/16-20 tap) but all in all it will have taken me like one hour once im done. why is a master machinst making something that can be easlly completed in an hour by a kid in highschool take 5 hours?

I'm calling bull**** on this one.

I know for a fact you haven't cut a functional barrel adapter complete with a nubbin in an hour.

What you've gotten in an hour is a tube turned to the right OD (I'll assume here) with a hole bored through it (again maybe at the right diameter), and maybe you've even gotten it faced off on the end. I'd say you have, at the very least, five maybe six operations left to do, three of which you can't do in a lathe.

If it only takes you an hour cut one start to finish, make a vid to prove it. No stopping the tape start to finish. I'll apologize ASAP when I've seen that one all the way through. ;) It's not a lot of effort, and you'll get mad props from every machinist that sees it (because that'll be one hell of a thing to see), what do you have to lose? :ninja:

[FiXeL]

i dont believe this at all. i agree with the part that says stuff costs money and people wont pay for it, but come on it doesnt take 5 hours to make a barrel adapter. im making one at school. it took me 40 mins so far and all i have left is threading it for a cocker barrel.(having troube finding my 15/16-20 tap) but all in all it will have taken me like one hour once im done. why is a master machinst making something that can be easlly completed in an hour by a kid in highschool take 5 hours?

Maybe take into consideration he doesnt have a huge workshop with all the ideal machines to make it on. If you had a CNC lathe with rotating tools and milling spindle, you could machine one in less than 15 minutes (this excludes setup, programming and tool adjustment)
Maybe you have at school better tools to do it, so that would explain the difference. I've been working for 6 years with CNC milling machines and i know that to cut costs you will have to produce in large numbers or ask a insane high price for one workpiece. (quite common in the moldmaking industry)

[slade]

students probably have quite an advantage over people like doc, rogue, or logic - although logic was probably right in what he said.

if you attempt to start your own shop, you have to invest the money in the machines, create a product yourself, market the product successfully, and then make and sell enough for you to not only break even but support yourself, family, operating costs, etc.

if you go to a vocational high school or a college, the school pays for the machines and your parents/the state pay for your tuition and living expenses. you can make as many parts as you want for free, you just have to pay for stock. and although you probably want to sell what you make, it doesnt hurt too much to sit on your inventory.

too bad i go to a public high school. the cnc machines we have sit on top of a table :(. a local company was going to donate a real CNC machine, but we didnt have the space or power for it.

[sunfisher89]

I cant wait. :D Ive found that once someone experiences it rather than reads about it, reality has a way of changing ones viewpoint.

So true. I tried to develop a product and get it out to the market. Once reality sets in, the whole project gets much much harder.

[Doc Nickel]

i dont believe this at all. i agree with the part that says stuff costs money and people wont pay for it, but come on it doesnt take 5 hours to make a barrel adapter. im making one at school. it took me 40 mins so far and all i have left is threading it for a cocker barrel.(having troube finding my 15/16-20 tap) but all in all it will have taken me like one hour once im done. why is a master machinst making something that can be easlly completed in an hour by a kid in highschool take 5 hours?

-Because I'm not talking about just machine time, and I'd strongly suspect that you're nowhere near done; as Cool noted, I'd bet your 'hour' only includes boring at this point, and no mill work. I also suspect you're using aluminum instead of 304 stainless; if I used aluminum, yes, I could make them start to finish in half the time, too.

Since I do everything, my estimates include everything; from picking up the bar of raw stock, all the way through to final polishing, wrapping and packing. I don't just count the time I'm standing in front of the lathe cranking handles.


Maybe take into consideration he doesnt have a huge workshop with all the ideal machines to make it on.

-It's huge enough. The machines aren't the problem (although I could stand to have a bigger lathe with a bit more power, when it comes to drilling a 5/8" hole through 2-1/4" of stainless bar.) It's purely the fact the machines are manual. I have no CNC anything, and likely won't anytime soon. (It's that investment thing again; $12,000 plus tooling into a small and low-features CNC would take me ten years to earn back.)

A full production CNC can drop one of my adapters out every ninety seconds. Cranking handles by hand takes hours no matter how huge and accurate the machines.


The irony is that my orginial comments were directed at AGD. Everyone understands the diffuculy of the one man shop.

-Except that the big shops have to consider the exact same things. It's only the scale that's changed. Yeah, they can invest in bigger runs, and so the per-part price can be even lower, but they also stand to risk more in absolute dollars if the product fails to take off.


AGD wont carry stock in products that dont sell.

-Bingo. Keep in mind that what you read here, is NOT accurately representative of the market at large. Here, you'll have five or six people all saying they'll buy Part X, but as I pointed out above, six parts isn't even worth plugging in the CNC, unless those six guys are willing to pay $300 each for a small and simple part.

And that means you need to cut more parts, to get the price down. But after those six people have bought theirs at $35, what do you do with the other 4,994 parts?

Anyone see all the barrels, wood grips, and obsolete Freak Backs that Smart Parts has been trickling out on eBay for the past year or two? SP made a couple of hundred Freak backs for Raptors. When's the last time you saw a Raptor being used on the field? Or even for sale?

So SP's stuck with all these backs that they have time and labor invested in (think of what it cost just to have them all polished and anodized) and they are now spending more time and effort (somebody has to list 'em manually) in order to get rid of them at scrap-metal prices.

Anyone remember my X-Ray Posters (http://www.docsmachine.com/posters/)? I still have over a thousand of these things left, after two and a half years. I haven't even broken even on them yet- even after a full-page writeup in PGI Magazine, and having one of them on the cover of a German PB magazine.

I have something like thirty other X-rays I'd love to print, but if I can't sell 500 Autococker posters, there's no way I could sell 500 Vector or Blazer posters.

And again; yes, I could print singles, or just a few dozen, just to satisfy what demand is there. But in that case, each print would be $35 each my cost. You guys won't pay $40 for a poster, because no one right now is paying five dollars for a poster.

Doc.

[Beemer]

I'm calling bull**** on this one.

I know for a fact you haven't cut a functional barrel adapter complete with a nubbin in an hour.

What you've gotten in an hour is a tube turned to the right OD (I'll assume here) with a hole bored through it (again maybe at the right diameter), and maybe you've even gotten it faced off on the end. I'd say you have, at the very least, five maybe six operations left to do, three of which you can't do in a lathe.

If it only takes you an hour cut one start to finish, make a vid to prove it. No stopping the tape start to finish. I'll apologize ASAP when I've seen that one all the way through. ;) It's not a lot of effort, and you'll get mad props from every machinist that sees it (because that'll be one hell of a thing to see), what do you have to lose? :ninja:

I'll take some of that action. I bet large it aint the same or as good as Docs if it even works at all.

[slade]

Anyone remember my X-Ray Posters (http://www.docsmachine.com/posters/)? I still have over a thousand of these things left, after two and a half years. I haven't even broken even on them yet- even after a full-page writeup in PGI Magazine, and having one of them on the cover of a German PB magazine.

I have something like thirty other X-rays I'd love to print, but if I can't sell 500 Autococker posters, there's no way I could sell 500 Vector or Blazer posters.

And again; yes, I could print singles, or just a few dozen, just to satisfy what demand is there. But in that case, each print would be $35 each my cost. You guys won't pay $40 for a poster, because no one right now is paying five dollars for a poster.

Doc.
hey, i remember those! you should post here more often. depending on my financial situation later in the year, i may be e-mailing you about a couple.

[FARMER00]

-Because I'm not talking about just machine time, and I'd strongly suspect that you're nowhere near done; as Cool noted, I'd bet your 'hour' only includes boring at this point, and no mill work. I also suspect you're using aluminum instead of 304 stainless; if I used aluminum, yes, I could make them start to finish in half the time, too.

Since I do everything, my estimates include everything; from picking up the bar of raw stock, all the way through to final polishing, wrapping and packing. I don't just count the time I'm standing in front of the lathe cranking handles.



Doc.
agreed, i am using aluminum and I assure all I have to do is tap it thats it no extra drillin. I have already recessed the shoulders for the tap so as soon as its tapped im done.

its bored exactly to .694 the outside is the exact same size as the breech so it wont even need the orings and is completly polished. its drilled for the loader right body and also for a spyder style rubber nubbin. all this was done in one 76 min period in class including 20 mins of prep and clean up. maybe once i get the right tap (I was %100 sure I had one on the farm but i cant find it) i will make another and film it.

[MANN]

its bored exactly to .694 the outside is the exact same size as the breech so it wont even need the orings and is completly polished.

hmmm let us know how that turns out.

After it is all said and done would it not be easier to just pick up a used ULE.

[CoolHand]

agreed, i am using aluminum and I assure all I have to do is tap it thats it no extra drillin. I have already recessed the shoulders for the tap so as soon as its tapped im done.

its bored exactly to .694 the outside is the exact same size as the breech so it wont even need the orings and is completly polished. its drilled for the loader right body and also for a spyder style rubber nubbin. all this was done in one 76 min period in class including 20 mins of prep and clean up. maybe once i get the right tap (I was %100 sure I had one on the farm but i cant find it) i will make another and film it.

So what you're saying is that you turned and bored a slug, then drilled two holes in it, right?

That being the case, you're not even close to comparing the two pieces. At this point it's apples and bald tires we're talking about, not the same thing at all.

You're skipping two oring grooves, a counterbore, and the milling for the twistlock slot, IE the most time consuming operations.

Also, I'd nearly guarantee that Doc is drilling then reaming or finish boring his bores to size before tapping the barrel threads, which is an operation you didn't say anything about either.

Top it all off that you're working in aluminum instead of stainless and you get two completely different parts, with equally different fab times.

Also, on that diameter, turning the OD of the part to exactly match the ID of the bore it slides into will lead to press fit, not a slip fit. If you get it in there once, you'll not get it out again without quite a bit of effort (if at all).

[FARMER00]

So what you're saying is that you turned and bored a slug, then drilled two holes in it, right?

That being the case, you're not even close to comparing the two pieces. At this point it's apples and bald tires we're talking about, not the same thing at all.

You're skipping two oring grooves, a counterbore, and the milling for the twistlock slot, IE the most time consuming operations.

Also, I'd nearly guarantee that Doc is drilling then reaming or finish boring his bores to size before tapping the barrel threads, which is an operation you didn't say anything about either.

Top it all off that you're working in aluminum instead of stainless and you get two completely different parts, with equally different fab times.

Also, on that diameter, turning the OD of the part to exactly match the ID of the bore it slides into will lead to press fit, not a slip fit. If you get it in there once, you'll not get it out again without quite a bit of effort (if at all).
well most people dont know what any of that is so i didnt go into explain anything like that. but i have already installed it in the gun and because i made it such a smooth finish and exact bore it has no leaks and works perfect. also a slot is not needed for instalation since it will come out every time you unscrew a barrel so i drilled one hole to fit into the twistlock assembley and will not move and can only be removed if the gun is dissasembeled. oh and it has been reamed and couterbored slightly i have dont virtually the exact same thing as him. just mine is made from aluminum

when i finally get ahold of the right tap i will take pics for y'all and see what you say

ps is this under pat pend? if so i will quit right now doc

[cyrus-the-virus]

I've read this whole thread and I've got one thing to say.

Some of you people are mentaly insane.

I've also learned a lot.

Also I do have an opinion on how AGD would increase sales. Advertizment, however being only 16 and my job is 2 paperroute (yealding a measly $86 and 2 free movie passes a month. My yearly income would barly cover the cost of an add in a magazine like APG.

If I could I would but sadly I do like to play paintball and I cannot buy paintballs with a foodstamps card :(

[CoolHand]

well most people dont know what any of that is so i didnt go into explain anything like that. but i have already installed it in the gun and because i made it such a smooth finish and exact bore it has no leaks and works perfect. also a slot is not needed for instalation since it will come out every time you unscrew a barrel so i drilled one hole to fit into the twistlock assembley and will not move and can only be removed if the gun is dissasembeled. oh and it has been reamed and couterbored slightly i have dont virtually the exact same thing as him. just mine is made from aluminum

when i finally get ahold of the right tap i will take pics for y'all and see what you say

ps is this under pat pend? if so i will quit right now doc

I went back and looked at Doc's adapters, and I was slightly confused about their configuration. I didn't realize they required you to disassemble the marker to install them. I've cut a couple but I duplicated the twistlock notch to lock it in place, so you could pull it out any time you wanted to, and oring grooves to keep the thing in place like I wanted and still be removable. Mine were quite a bit more complex (unnecessarily so it appears).

Now, I'm NOT a master machinist, but it took me considerably longer than an hour to make mine, especially the first one. Stainless cuts considerably slower than aluminum though, so that accounts for a good deal of the discrepancy

[FARMER00]

I went back and looked at Doc's adapters, and I was slightly confused about their configuration. I didn't realize they required you to disassemble the marker to install them. I've cut a couple but I duplicated the twistlock notch to lock it in place, so you could pull it out any time you wanted to, and oring grooves to keep the thing in place like I wanted and still be removable. Mine were quite a bit more complex (unnecessarily so it appears).

Now, I'm NOT a master machinist, but it took me considerably longer than an hour to make mine, especially the first one. Stainless cuts considerably slower than aluminum though, so that accounts for a good deal of the discrepancy
yes i completly agree about the ss vs. aluminum and the time consuming




ps. anyone have a 15/16unf-20(autococker) or a 7/8unf-20(a5) tap i can have or borrow thanks i still cant find mine

[CoolHand]

yes i completly agree about the ss vs. aluminum and the time consuming




ps. anyone have a 15/16unf-20(autococker) or a 7/8unf-20(a5) tap i can have or borrow thanks i still cant find mine

You can buy them from MSC for about $40 + shipping.

http://www1.mscdirect.com/cgi/nnsrhm

If you're going to have it anodized, you'll want to get an H5 or H7 oversize. If you're going to use it as-is, I'd use the H3.

Also, some barrels require you to open up the minor diameter 10-15 thou from what the tap really wants. I have no idea why, they just don't cut the threads deep enough on some barrels. I've found J&J's, a Whitewolf freak back, one SP AA, and even a DYE Stainless that was oversize. A single barrel from all of the above mentioned barrels (at one time or another) would not go into a tapped hole until I opened up the minor diameter about 15 thou (and it was right on to start with).

:cheers:

[Doc Nickel]

Also I do have an opinion on how AGD would increase sales. Advertizment[.]

-AGD does advertise. But they advertise at a level commesurate with their production volume.

Places like NPS and Smart Parts spend literally $100,000 a month on advertising alone. A single color full-page ad in a magazine can cost as much as $1,800- for one month.

But they also do millions per month in business. Tens of thousands of parts, thousands of guns, hundreds of thousands of small parts.

AGD doesn't. They sell however many they sell, which is probably right about the same number they make in a month, give or take. Whatever the level is, it's far below that of either SP or NPS.

It doesn't make sense to spend $50,000 in advertising to sell $60,000 in product... especially if your production likes aren't geared up to handle that kind of volume.

It would be stupid of me, with about a dozen barrel adapters still on the shelf, to blow $1,800 to put a color ad in a magazine to sell them. First, selling what I have wouldn't come anywhere near covering the cost of the ad even if I tripled the price, and if I got more demand than I had inventory for and couldn't fill the orders, it would end up being a waste of that ad money.


After it is all said and done would it not be easier to just pick up a used ULE.

-Now don't be draggin' on the kid. There's a lot to be said for making your own parts, even if the same thing or even a better one is already available.


I went back and looked at Doc's adapters, and I was slightly confused about their configuration. I didn't realize they required you to disassemble the marker to install them.

-That's correct. They're pinned in place by the barrel-locking pin, a feature I used so that the body wouldn't twist when you try to unscrew the barrel, and it also can't shift in the twist-lock groove, which would jam it from feeding.

Mine also have three such holes, so the same adapter can fit in right hand, left hand, and even centerfeed and Sydarm bodies.


Stainless cuts considerably slower than aluminum though, so that accounts for a good deal of the discrepancy

That's a good portion of it. My lathe is a tad underpowered for trying to push a 5/8" drill through stainless, so I typically have to make several passes; centerdrill, then 3/16", then 3/8", 1/2", and then 5/8". I made a small handful a year or two ago to cover orders while the shop was making more, and I snuck over to the college machine shop- the teach there loves me :D - and used his one of big 7.5HP 15" swing Colchesters with a collet closer.

I used a carriage stop and a homebrew collet stop (http://www.docsmachine.com/machineshop/cd05.jpg) that I also made while I was there, in conjunction with the collet closer, and was able to face something like 20 pieces to +/- .002" in about half an hour. (Not counting setup time, nor building the collet stop.)

After that, using the same collet setup, I was able to centerdrill all 20 (took about 10 minutes) pilot drill with a 3/16" (took close to an hour, but I had to resharpen the drill about four times, and the flood coolant wasn't cooperating.

Then, with the coolant sorted out, and with a freshly-sharpened 5/8" MT3 drill, I was able to punch them all the way through in one pass. I still had to stop and resharpen the drill at least once, and each piece still took two or three minutes each for a full cycle, but it beat my little lathes all hollow.

I finished up all the precision work back at the shop.

FARMER00: Snag yourself a short bar of 303, 304 or 316 stainless and try it again. You'll see how much of a difference there is.

I could have saved time and money having my adapters made from aluminum, but I wanted quality pieces that would last as long as the gun itself. I'm very happy with how they came out- and none of the 300+ users have complained yet- I just wish they'd sold better.

Doc.

[SCpoloRicker]

Obviously, the smaller custom shops here on AO need to take a good listen to the astute businessmen in this thread. ;)

[turbo chicken]

Wow ... I just got a refresher from a project managment class i took a while ago ...

Did i see Doc say that he might do another run ?

[CoolHand]

. . . . . That's a good portion of it. My lathe is a tad underpowered for trying to push a 5/8" drill through stainless, so I typically have to make several passes; centerdrill, then 3/16", then 3/8", 1/2", and then 5/8". I made a small handful a year or two ago to cover orders while the shop was making more, and I snuck over to the college machine shop- the teach there loves me :D - and used his one of big 7.5HP 15" swing Colchesters with a collet closer.. . . . Doc.

How'd you like that Colchester? I've been eyeing a 15" swing Clausing, but I've not used one before.

It looks like it's hell for stout, but I have no idea whether they have any irritating little nuances in their operation.

[Doc Nickel]

How'd you like that Colchester? I've been eyeing a 15" swing Clausing, but I've not used one before.

It looks like it's hell for stout, but I have no idea whether they have any irritating little nuances in their operation.

-I'd kill and help hide the body for one.

I mean, it's horribly oversized for 99% of what I do, and my shop ain't all that big, but there's times when that sheer power and rigidity sure do come in handy.

The college machines are true Clausing Colchesters, dating back to probably the late 70s or early 80s. They're college machines, and thus have had a great deal of hard use, but the shop teach is a true whiz with machines, and keeps 'em in fine shape.

They're truly massive for their size, and rigid as an anvil. I love the features and power. Grizzly has one that's basically identical (http://www.grizzly.com/products/G9733/images) that I'd love to have, but there's just no way I could justify that price. It's so huge that I'd only use the damn thing two or three times a year- the rest of the time my comparatively tiny 10" Logan does just fine. (You don't need seven horsepower and 3-phase power to turn a delrin 'Cocker bolt, y'know. :D )

Doc.

[slade]

They're truly massive for their size, and rigid as an anvil. I love the features and power. Grizzly has one that's basically identical (http://www.grizzly.com/products/G9733/images) that I'd love to have, but there's just no way I could justify that price.
thats massive? you need to spend more time around CNC machines :p

[CoolHand]

thats massive? you need to spend more time around CNC machines :p

Coming from a 10" Logan, that IS massive.

I've got a 12" Logan right now. She's a good old girl, but she's getting pretty long in the tooth, AND given my recent incident at the hands of my Bridgeport, every machine is getting an EStop, and I cannot do that on a lathe with a threaded spindle mount. THAT would be even worse than getting wound up in one, hit the EStop then watch helplessly as the chuck unscrews and runs away to bash someone else. Nope, my new machine is going to have a camlock spindle or nothing at all.

I've got my eye on a Clausing for a little over half of what the green bear wants for his. For the same money as the Clausing, I can also get a brand new 13" swing Sharp.

Tough call.

[Doc Nickel]

thats massive? you need to spend more time around CNC machines :p

-Keep in mind I'm talking about home-shop and hobbyist sized lathes. My Logan is "huge" compared to the average hobby machinists 9" by 20" JET or Harbor Freight lathe, which themselves dwarf the Unimat and Sherline lathes.

The CNC stuff you have in mind might be dwarfed by an old Cincinnatti rail-wheel lathe (two heads and carriages, 12-foot swing, 15-foot bed) which would itself be dwarfed by the monster lathes used to turn Iowa-class rifles at Rock Island Arsenal.

You know it's a big machine when there's two flights of stairs leading to the top of the carriage. :D

There's always somebody out there with a bigger tool. (Story of my life. :D )


I've got my eye on a Clausing for a little over half of what the green bear wants for his. For the same money as the Clausing, I can also get a brand new 13" swing Sharp.

-I missed getting a 14" South Bend, with the (apparently troublesome) vari-drive replaced with a 3HP 3-phase and a digital VFD (variable frequency drive) all in top-notch shape, and local (!) because I didn't have the $3,000 on hand.

I keep waiting for another deal like that to wander my way, but this is Alaska; big tools are expensive, rare, and in demand. If I ever break down and decode I gotta have a new, bigger lathe right now, I'd probably end up with one of Grizzly's 13" by 40" models. I'm happy with my Griz mill (Bridgeport clone) and a local friend has a 13.5x40 that's actually pretty darn nice for the $3000 it cost. It's smooth, powerful, and rigid.

Doc.

[MANN]

yes i completly agree about the ss vs. aluminum and the time consuming




ps. anyone have a 15/16unf-20(autococker) or a 7/8unf-20(a5) tap i can have or borrow thanks i still cant find mine

did you ever finish your adaptor?? how did it turn out??