Why is the Tippmann C3 so big?

[Skoad]

I found an animation of how the C3 supposedly works. I don't understand why its so bulky. I originally figured its because there needs to be a certain size combustion chamber for the propane/air mixture - enough to fire a pball 300fps....but a smaller chamber would just increase the energy from the ignition I would think. Well of course theres probably a minimum limit to how much gas/air is needed to reach 300fps even if chamber is small.

Anywho took this off of pbnation, not sure if the animation is to scale.


http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/9670/tippmannc33mr.gif
Step 1: What happens with the back pump stroke.
When you pump the handle back, you do a few things. Of course you're pulling the bolt back to chamber a ball! That's obvious. But there are 2 other things.
One being the ventilation of excess gas. The propane/air mixture that doesn't get used needs to be vented out.
The other being the brass piston in the front. It is a "switch" just as the autococker 4-way is a "switch." When the handle pushes in this tiny brass piston allows a tiny amount of propane to flow through a low-pressure hose. This hose is routed to *somewhere* in the back of the gun (see, that's why the above animation isn't 100%).

Step 2: Next what happens with the forward pump stroke.
From here you will, again get obvious out of the way, finish chambering a single paintball. Now on to more unobvious detail.
On the giant piston connected to the pump rod there are 2 U-rings. "Flappers." These are sucking in the air on the return pump motion, for the mixture of propane and air. Proper mixture, iirc, of 1:5 ratio.

Step 3: Finally, when you pull the trigger...
As soon as you pull the trigger, underneath the combustion chamber is essentially a spark plug. A tiny spark will ignite the propane. Upon ignition the pressure will build drastically (honestly a tiny explosion) and start to push back the REAR piston. Once back far enough the expanding gases will vent out, through the bolt, and propell the paintball out the barrel. This is why the spring tension regulates velocity, the stiffer the spring, the smaller the amount of gas that is allowed to exhaust. And of course not all the gas exhausts, which is why the step 1 process is required.

This also explains why the barrel needed to be a proprietary design, it HAD to be made of the composite material.

I'll admit that I was one of the many who didn't quite understand the exact working function of the C3. After talking to a couple people and going over the schematics some more it began to take shape. I had originally envisioned the large dual-ringed piston to be shoved forward to act as a 'mini-compressor' of sorts. But as soon as I found out that the pump handle is basically connected to the piston it made a whole other picture for me.

[VFX_Fenix]

If I had to make a guess I'd say it was an issue of them using the most conveniently sized chamber they could.

[jenarelJAM]

I would guess that they need a certain volume in the "explosion chamber", and instead of making the tube longer(and therefore a longer pump stroke), they made the cylinder's radius greater, to increase volume that way. Its girth would also explain why the C3 is known to have a heavy pump stroke.
Just a guess, I've never handled, or even seen a C3.

Edit: Whoops, misunderstood your question, I just repeated what you said...
I would guess that they need move volume because it doesn't run off of compressed air. They need to get the oxygen to produce the combustion reaction somewhere, and since the energy source is propane instead of compressed air, the only way to get it is through venting new air in. They can stick in as much propane as they want, but the oxygen is the limiting reactant in the reaction, so they need a certain amount of open volume to get enough of a reaction to increase the pressure to push the paintball out the barrel at 300 fps. (phew).

[hs2000]

You'd have to cram more air into the chamber to get an equally large explosion if the chamber was smaller. Because the pump stroke pushes air into the chamber, this would mean that the pump stroke would get even harder.

But I'm most likly wrong, All I know is if Tippmann could make it smaller, I am sure they would have.

[MoeMag]

I could be wrong but that animation looks way wrong. Its showing that the actual exhaust gas is propelling the paintball... thus making it definable as a firearm. Working at the paintball shop I had it explained to me that the combustion takes place in one chamber connected to a compression chamber thus making the propelling charge of “cool” gas not exhaust.

EDIT: Looking at it I at least know that the little brass knob that the pump strikes is a poppet style valve that controls the propane flow. That animation does not show how the propane travels from the front poppet where the gas line obviously goes to, to the combustion chamber. Something is fishy.


I have yet to sell one in over 8 months, got 5 of them I have 4 in stock (gave one away at an event). Never had the need to work on one, so I really don’t know quite how they work. I guess they never took off.

But like /\ /\ /\ said if it could be smaller, Tippmann would have done it.

[ta2maki]

I think it does use the exhaust gas to propel the ball. I have a c3 and if you put your hand over the muzzle and dry fire, the air coming out is warm and damp.

[Skoad]

I guess its just to get the right volume of air for the mixture for why the chamber is so big.


Also I don't necessarily think that 'if tippmann could have made it smaller they would have', Tippmann's guns are fairly robust, I think partially to their cast metal construction and the needs for mass production. Part of me thinks they made it 'like this' just to avoid a bigger risk rather than to hone the technology.

I don't know, it just seems to me this could be done in a much smaller package.

[AGD]

Turn off the lights and fire the gun... flame comes out the end.....

AGD

[don miguel]

I was talking to a ref today about the same thing... he siad they arent alowes a BPS because they will melt bunkers. Crazy or true?

[Skoad]

I was talking to a ref today about the same thing... he siad they arent alowes a BPS because they will melt bunkers. Crazy or true?


...........................

[jenarelJAM]

Turn off the lights and fire the gun... flame comes out the end.....

AGD
I've never known you to joke, at least not without a smiley, so I'm going to assume you're serious...

That's so cool! :clap:

[RRfireblade]

It's a very light/weak flame. You can put your hand right against the barrel and feel very little heat so I doubt seriously it would melt a bunker.

[A-Tach-One]

I was talking to a ref today about the same thing... he siad they arent alowes a BPS because they will melt bunkers. Crazy or true?
Hmm, stick a marshmellow on the end of the barrel and see what you come up with.

[iambored]

Hmm, stick a marshmellow on the end of the barrel and see what you come up with.
ever heard the rumor off the guy smoking with a c3 in his hands?
It blew up
He got 2nd burns
He doesn't like pump anymore

[hs2000]

^don't joke like that, it gives the C3 a bad name, while it's nott a great gun, it is safe. It's safer then the 4500 psi bombs that most people carry around. Every think of the energy stored in one of those?

[iambored]

^don't joke like that, it gives the C3 a bad name, while it's nott a great gun, it is safe. It's safer then the 4500 psi bombs that most people carry around. Every think of the energy stored in one of those?
I didn't say it, it was a review for it on anythingxtreme for the c3

[Desega]

I have a friend that plays with a c3 and other than the barrel getting a little toasty he's never had any issues.

[VFX_Fenix]

I've never known you to joke, at least not without a smiley, so I'm going to assume you're serious...

That's so cool! :clap:


He's dead serious on this one. :ninja:

[SR_matt]

just got to lazy to keep reading down the posts so idk if this was already said but

also remember propane is like 450ish psi when full but as the tank gets emptyer the psi will obviously drop. i assume the main resivoir is like 20 psi of propane (just because of the density it has to be mixed at to combust propperly ) so to get all the shots off of that tank it has to be reged down.

best way to under stand it is to take a lighter and do the fire ball in the hand thing and you see how much force you can sence from it. so you need to put much more gas and keep it under pressure to get force out of it



now idk if that made much sence but it helped me think it through
-matt

[paint magnet]

Gives a whole new meaning to "LP!" :D I doubt many people will get that...

[MoeMag]

Gives a whole new meaning to "LP!" :D I doubt many people will get that...

LPG
Liquid propane gas.

[Meph]

That was my old animation. Wasn't finished then. I did a while ago though, when I received my C3. I then promptly tore the sucker apart and diagnosed how everything worked. Result...


http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/6073/c3bz1.gif


It's an overall really ingenious design. But being the first production I see it easily being able to be tweeked, scaled down, eventually made semi even. Maybe slow semi to start, like 6bps. But it would afterall be a start.


But yes. It does shoot paintballs via ignited propane. And yes there is a small blue flame that comes out the barrel that can be seen with the lights out. Oh, and yes, it is as loud as a shotgun. :D

[cyrus-the-virus]

Propane pumps could take off.

but it's made by tippmann.

I woulden't be surprised if the next version comes compleate with rails, magazines, and a cyclone while using the same exact internals parts.

[Coralis]

I believe the reason given for not making a semi was due to heat build up concerns. My thinking on the matter to increase the bps of the marker would require materials better able to disapate heat than what is commonly used in paintball markers today.

[Ydna]

Yes.

But don't tell it to the Tipp sales reps, the like to deny it. :rolleyes:

[SR_matt]

I believe the reason given for not making a semi was due to heat build up concerns. My thinking on the matter to increase the bps of the marker would require materials better able to disapate heat than what is commonly used in paintball markers today.

cpu fans :rolleyes:

radiator system :rolleyes:

liquid cooled, computer controlled, cooling mesh :p

-matt

[cyrus-the-virus]

cpu fans :rolleyes:

radiator system :rolleyes:

liquid cooled, computer controlled, cooling mesh :p

-matt

hurray for a $600 pump marker!!

[hs2000]

^ he was saying those things would be needed on a semi model.

And the CCM's S6 is almost $600.

In other words, your post was lame.

[SR_matt]

^^ dont be rude, it could be taken either way becasue it was about the ways to disapate heat
-matt

[cyrus-the-virus]

^ he was saying those things would be needed on a semi model.

And the CCM's S6 is almost $600.

In other words, your post was lame.

fine 1K pump marker.
are you happy now?

[VFX_Fenix]

It doesn't look like anyone's come up with this one yet, but it came to me while I was recalling the days of making Spud Guns.

The reason the combustion chamber is so big is to have the propper ratio between the barrel and the combustion chamber. This seems to be combined with a reusable burst diaphram to achieve higher efficiency/muzzle velocity.

The thing's a mini sized Propane spud gun.

[Meph]

fine 1K pump marker.
are you happy now?

No.

A duck can run you as much as $2,500. Most expensive one I've seen at least.


And yes. Once dissipation of heat is worked out semi is the next logical step.