Why?

[CKY_Alliance]

Why does it seem that nearly everyone on AO(except a few) think that it takes no skill to shoot people with a ramping gun?

Honestly,after reading a few post just now..its seems like a few of you believe that if you ramp you automatically use the "spray and pray" technique...and that snap shooting automatically happens magically because the gun is ramping...

[punkncat]

Why does it seem that nearly everyone on AO(except a few) think that it takes no skill to shoot people with a ramping gun?

Honestly,after reading a few post just now..its seems like a few of you believe that if you ramp you automatically use the "spray and pray" technique...and that snap shooting automatically happens magically because the gun is ramping...


I don't agree with that mentality, but I will say that ramping has changed the face of the game in such a way that (paint)budget more than skill determines outcomes of games....and has changed the learning curve irrepairably.

[MaD_SaM]

I’m fairly new to the game and when I came into Paintball I was worried about what others would say about my skills or lack there of. So I was ready to sign a check and buy an ION!!! But after coming on here and reading about other markers and what had to be said I made a choice to go mech. And work on my skills and on the fundamentals of the game. I can safely say im not ready for an electronic marker and to be honest I don’t think I need one! I’m happy with my ULE RT Pro Mag. My next marker will be a pump!!



So I guess what im trying to say is give them time...

[mr.mag218]

Why does it seem that nearly everyone on AO(except a few) think that it takes no skill to shoot people with a ramping gun?

Honestly,after reading a few post just now..its seems like a few of you believe that if you ramp you automatically use the "spray and pray" technique...and that snap shooting automatically happens magically because the gun is ramping...
i don't think it automatically makes you spray and pray. however i think that ramping or auto modes take the timing out of a shot. see you just pop out of the bunker and unload of few hoppers of paint until the person finally pops out and gets hit 15 times (exaggerated). pumps bring the firefight back...shoot go back in your bunker wait, see the person, shoot. the person who times their shot right gets the kill. (or just has a lucky pull of the trigger)....i don't post much in these threads so please don't flame. i'll just crawl back into my hole now

[CKY_Alliance]

I don't agree with that mentality, but I will say that ramping has changed the face of the game in such a way that (paint)budget more than skill determines outcomes of games....and has changed the learning curve irrepairably.



So you have noticed that mentality as well? Just wanna make sure im not the only one.

[Lohman446]

I don't agree with that mentality, but I will say that ramping has changed the face of the game in such a way that (paint)budget more than skill determines outcomes of games....and has changed the learning curve irrepairably.


Really?

I filled in at a tournament for an old team. I shot 1/2 a case of paint over the entire tournament using a ramping marker. One of the other players on the team probably averaged 1/2 case of paint a game.

Ask those there who they would have preferred on there team? Now understand I was having a reasonably "on" day and things were going well.

[CKY_Alliance]

Really?

I filled in at a tournament for an old team. I shot 1/2 a case of paint over the entire tournament using a ramping marker. One of the other players on the team probably averaged 1/2 case of paint a game.

Ask those there who they would have preferred on there team? Now understand I was having a reasonably "on" day and things were going well.


My whole team(myself included) will use about 3/4 to a full case playing a tournamnet in PSP...back players included..

In response to Mr.Mag, when snapping with ramping you generally, atleast I, rarley am shooting long enough to activate ramping and if i do, by time I check in and snap back out it has turned off...majority of the time..of course i am talking about PSP ramping..

[mag_lover05]

Welcome to the town of One Week Ban. Curse, or circumvent the filters again, and you are gone permanent.

Army

[geekwarrior]

so you're saying the odds of hitting someone don't increase if I shoot 15 instead of 8?

Im not saying it takes the skill out, but it def has changed the game.

[buzzboy]

(mind I don't ramp but I do add shots[cough bounce cough]but that's limited to 13 by my revy)
I don't think there is anything wrong with ramping. Mainly I play tourney's that are strict semi only, some capped some uncapped. But I really don't think ramping does anything special. My team's backmen both ramp and one of them shoots through crazy paint and he really doesn't get that many more outs that I do shooting 13 bouncing.

Funny thing is that on my team some members have their ramping set to 15 on third pull at like 2 bps and they actually rag on me for the ramp issue bouncing to 13 max. Personally I think they're just jealous though because I'm just so hot.

Over all I have not played a game that ramping made a difference at all. If somebody is ramping they could be doing just as good without it.




(god....all this talk of it makes me wanna buy a pump)

[p8ntbal4me]

Most of the tourney series now set small time limits and make the games more intense time wise to win in a shorter span to gain more points. Note that you used to see NPPL players using larger harnesses and shooting alot more paint than todays PSP players that (depending on their role on the team and field possition) will cary maybe 3 tubes and a hopper full of paint.

I do agree with you when you say that it does take skill to play tourney and it is not a thing you just come out of the woods one day and start owing other teams at. It takes time and a certain degree of skill developement to get there.

I do NOT agree with the whole ramping thing. I like the idea of the max ROF capped in modes such as ramping because I think in many ways,.. it damages the image of plaintball to Non-Paintball playing people.

I like ramping only for one reason, it makes the teams that play with skill and great communication show at the end of an event more so,.. because they worked on the same level as everyone else in respect to their markers,.. but because THEY were the better team,.. they won.

I would like to see a tourney series honor un-capped firing rates for those players that believe they can shoot faster in a manual mode over a ramping mode. Mixing the 2 modes I think would make alot of the "crying" go away about Mags, bounce, and what is legal and not legal. Look at it this way,.... if things were black and white, apples to oranges,.... think about the next statement here: The difference in a player pulling the trigger to achive a manual BPS of 6 and then being blessed with an extra 9BPS they didnt actually pull vice a player that has a manual BPS of 13 and gets an swtich bounce or "reactive push" to give them an extra 9BPS? Think about that for a minute and forget the way the rules and stuff are,... just with that information and nothing else,... whats the difference in how they get the extra BPS?

The ramping is capped? Well thats not what information I gave you,.. but lets take a look at the same information and install a ROF cap at,.. say 40BPS.

Now the your gun is in a ramping mode thats capped at 40BPS. Your gun has no bounce what so ever. Your ramping starts at say, 9BPS and goes up to your max BPS set to 40. Now just so we are clear, your getting 31BPS more you are NOT pulling as long as you mantain 9BPS on your own. And for just name sake,.. lets call your gun an EGO (this is for name,.. nothing more!)

Now the gun Im using is in manual mode, meaning STRAIGHT SEMI. This means that there is NOTHING in the modes programming that will give me a mixed number of shot buffer. (an example would be that Im shooting 1.89BPS and the computer is rounding every shot up to the next whole number and telling the solenoid to honor 2BPS not 1.89BPS) So with that being said,.. if I pull 1.89BPS,.. im getting 1BPS. My gun has bounce or a "reactive push" to my trigger. Meaning that I use my guns mechanics to achive a high rate of fire.
Lets call my gun an X-Valve R/T with a electronic grip frame.

So we stand side by side and you just start fanning your trigger. Your gun starts ripping over a BPS tracker (for a way to measure the BPS,.. work with me here!) and your hopper is now empty. The machine says your max ROF was 29BPS on your EGO.

I start to fan my trigger over the BPS tracker and my hopper is now empty. The machine says my max ROF was 37BPS.

I GUARRENTY,.. no better said, Ill put my E-Mag up against this statement, that you, because your shooting an EGO will cry that my Mag is "cheating, or illegal" becuase it can cycle faster and reach its peak ROF built on its mechanics and your EGO can not.

Now you see why most of us think its not a thing that promotes skill. Why ramp, why not just through the guns into full auto and use that? This is the core reason why people on the AO and Mag users in general get very (for a lack of a better word) "mad" when some electronic toting tourney player talks about their EGO, Shocker, ION, etc. as being the FASTEST GUN EVA,... then they call Mags not legal because they are just flat out FASTER than anything in production to date (and you can quote the AO on that one!!!)

You give me an Xvalved mag with a Qloader, shooting straight manual trigger NO ELECTRONICS AT ALL. Give another player an EGO with any loader they want, eyes or no eyes, uncapped ramping, full auto, whatever they want to use. Just flat max the gun out. Now put him at the end of my paint stream and I GUARRENTY he will complain because my gun is "bouncing" and its not legal. Even though hes using full auto or uncapped ramping, hes STILL going to complain. Why? Because the mag was faster than his EGO. Dont deny it,.. you all know what Im talking about. I fell victom to this in the CFOA in 2001. I was bull (bad word here)! Because my R/T burned 2 guys of the break and they get waxed. Even with Angels running Gabriel boards in turbo,... still they complained.

This is why ramping and fire modes that people (other than mag users) think makes their guns better and faster are a topic of ill-response here.

You know what would happen if they allowed "bouncing mags" in the PSP? Couple things:

First,... the players guns that can not reach a mags max ROF would boycot the tourney series, and most likely their sponsors would file complaints labling mags as "un-safe".

Second,... players would FLOOD to AGD to grab mags (w00t w00t :clap: ) because that (just like the EGO is now) would be the new standard for speedy guns in a tourney.

Third,... a stock gun would be maxed out directly from the factory. What do you think companies like Virtue, Taedo, KM2, TAG, APE, Scenario Dreams, etc. would think about their electronic boards now longer being needed in the market for the top dog gun??? You think they would be okay with that?? Again,... more complaints will be filed with the tourney series saying that the Mags are "un-safe".

Fourth,.... SMART PARTS. Think long and hard,..... no more speedy electronic guns. A manual gun can replace that now. You think Smart Parts has ANY PATENT GROUND to stand on with AGD?? Nope. Not if they are all manual guns. No more royalties. Once more,.. another complaint filed saying mags are "un-safe".

I know,... I ranted alot. But remember to think on an ETHICAL term when you read this and comment. If apples were apples, there was no middle,... your either on this side or that side. (Anyone that has taken an Ethics College Course will know what Im talking about)

Do you think that ramping is fair now?? I dont. I think its a cheap way out.

Thats all!!

PS: I own 4 mags,... but I also own 3 Shockers, 3 Cockers, a pump, etc. So I am NOT mag bias! I do shoot my other guns every year!

[RogueFactor]

Why does it seem that nearly everyone on AO(except a few) think that it takes no skill to shoot people with a ramping gun?

Because everyone on AO(except a few) know the truth.

...It takes no skill to ramp. Its a triple tap. 3 pulls. The rest is all computer. Since when did 3 trigger pulls qualify as having skill?

...It takes little skill to point a ramping marker. So little skill, that everyone can point. I didnt know that pointing was a really hard skill to master?


Honestly,after reading a few post just now..its seems like a few of you believe that if you ramp you automatically use the "spray and pray" technique...and that snap shooting automatically happens magically because the gun is ramping...

In a shooting sport, the skill of shooting is a requisite skill. Having to pull the trigger, for every pull, requires more skill than not. Which is true whether its a bouncing mag or a ramping electro.

It takes less skill to:

1) Shoot a ramping electro than it does a semi-electro.
2) Shoot a semi-electro than it does a semi-mechanical.
3) Shoot a semi-mechanical than it does to shoot an Auto-Trigger pump.
4) Shoot an Auto-Trigger pump than a non-AT pump.

[p8ntbal4me]

It takes less skill to:

1) Shoot a ramping electro than it does a semi-electro.
2) Shoot a semi-electro than it does a semi-mechanical.
3) Shoot a semi-mechanical than it does to shoot an Auto-Trigger pump.
4) Shoot an Auto-Trigger pump than a non-AT pump.


Dude,.. whats your address? Because Im baking you a cake so you can have something sweet to go with the truth. I totally didnt think beyond a semi-auto with my post.
Your post right after mine is soooooooooooo sweet!!! (stroking the Sniper II w/o CCM autotrigger kit) :headbang:

[CKY_Alliance]

Most of the tourney series now set small time limits and make the games more intense time wise to win in a shorter span to gain more points. Note that you used to see NPPL players using larger harnesses and shooting alot more paint than todays PSP players that (depending on their role on the team and field possition) will cary maybe 3 tubes and a hopper full of paint.
where were you going with this?
I do agree with you when you say that it does take skill to play tourney and it is not a thing you just come out of the woods one day and start owing other teams at. It takes time and a certain degree of skill developement to get there.


I do NOT agree with the whole ramping thing. I like the idea of the max ROF capped in modes such as ramping because I think in many ways,.. it damages the image of plaintball to Non-Paintball playing people.
How does it damage the image? Most "outsiders" see/hear ramping and it amazes them, for some new players it scares them,but they have already chosen to play so they are not so much outsiders..

I like ramping only for one reason, it makes the teams that play with skill and great communication show at the end of an event more so,.. because they worked on the same level as everyone else in respect to their markers,.. but because THEY were the better team,.. they won.
Interesting, most people would argue the opposite,that it makes the bad players on a level playing field with the good players,atleast for trigger speed.

I would like to see a tourney series honor un-capped firing rates for those players that believe they can shoot faster in a manual mode over a ramping mode. Mixing the 2 modes I think would make alot of the "crying" go away about Mags, bounce, and what is legal and not legal. Look at it this way,.... if things were black and white, apples to oranges,.... think about the next statement here: The difference in a player pulling the trigger to achive a manual BPS of 6 and then being blessed with an extra 9BPS they didnt actually pull vice a player that has a manual BPS of 13 and gets an swtich bounce or "reactive push" to give them an extra 9BPS? Think about that for a minute and forget the way the rules and stuff are,... just with that information and nothing else,... whats the difference in how they get the extra BPS?

The ramping is capped? Well thats not what information I gave you,.. but lets take a look at the same information and install a ROF cap at,.. say 40BPS.

ummm...ok..the player not ramping is shooting faster..what's your point because I have somehow missed it.

Now the your gun is in a ramping mode thats capped at 40BPS. Your gun has no bounce what so ever. Your ramping starts at say, 9BPS and goes up to your max BPS set to 40. Now just so we are clear, your getting 31BPS more you are NOT pulling as long as you mantain 9BPS on your own. And for just name sake,.. lets call your gun an EGO (this is for name,.. nothing more!)

Now the gun Im using is in manual mode, meaning STRAIGHT SEMI. This means that there is NOTHING in the modes programming that will give me a mixed number of shot buffer. (an example would be that Im shooting 1.89BPS and the computer is rounding every shot up to the next whole number and telling the solenoid to honor 2BPS not 1.89BPS) So with that being said,.. if I pull 1.89BPS,.. im getting 1BPS. My gun has bounce or a "reactive push" to my trigger. Meaning that I use my guns mechanics to achive a high rate of fire.
Lets call my gun an X-Valve R/T with a electronic grip frame.

So we stand side by side and you just start fanning your trigger. Your gun starts ripping over a BPS tracker (for a way to measure the BPS,.. work with me here!) and your hopper is now empty. The machine says your max ROF was 29BPS on your EGO.

I start to fan my trigger over the BPS tracker and my hopper is now empty. The machine says my max ROF was 37BPS.

I GUARRENTY,.. no better said, Ill put my E-Mag up against this statement, that you, because your shooting an EGO will cry that my Mag is "cheating, or illegal" becuase it can cycle faster and reach its peak ROF built on its mechanics and your EGO can not.
Are you aware that all guns have mechanics and are capable of mecanical bounce..there for you I would not get mad because your "mechanical" gun with a electronic frame is faster then my "Ego"...Your not posting to answer my question your posting to try and make Mags out to be the Ultimate gun..which no one cares..go post in one of the other 800 "mags are so awsome" threads..which if thats your opinion then so be it.

Now you see why most of us think its not a thing that promotes skill. Why ramp, why not just through the guns into full auto and use that? This is the core reason why people on the AO and Mag users in general get very (for a lack of a better word) "mad" when some electronic toting tourney player talks about their EGO, Shocker, ION, etc. as being the FASTEST GUN EVA,... then they call Mags not legal because they are just flat out FASTER than anything in production to date (and you can quote the AO on that one!!!)

Are they? Wait what does it matter..the question wasn't whats the fastest gun?


You give me an Xvalved mag with a Qloader, shooting straight manual trigger NO ELECTRONICS AT ALL. Give another player an EGO with any loader they want, eyes or no eyes, uncapped ramping, full auto, whatever they want to use. Just flat max the gun out. Now put him at the end of my paint stream and I GUARRENTY he will complain because my gun is "bouncing" and its not legal. Even though hes using full auto or uncapped ramping, hes STILL going to complain. Why? Because the mag was faster than his EGO. Dont deny it,.. you all know what Im talking about. I fell victom to this in the CFOA in 2001. I was bull (bad word here)! Because my R/T burned 2 guys of the break and they get waxed. Even with Angels running Gabriel boards in turbo,... still they complained.
Umm ok...I think if uncapped ramping or full auto is allowed..i don't think they are going to care what your Mech mag is doing..
This is why ramping and fire modes that people (other than mag users) think makes their guns better and faster are a topic of ill-response here.

You know what would happen if they allowed "bouncing mags" in the PSP? Couple things:

First,... the players guns that can not reach a mags max ROF would boycot the tourney series, and most likely their sponsors would file complaints labling mags as "un-safe".
Umm they can't? why wouldn't they boycott it...they are capping the E-guns at 15 because it is intintional adding of shots, oh wait cranking up your air input is the same thing..

Second,... players would FLOOD to AGD to grab mags (w00t w00t :clap: ) because that (just like the EGO is now) would be the new standard for speedy guns in a tourney.

Third,... a stock gun would be maxed out directly from the factory. What do you think companies like Virtue, Taedo, KM2, TAG, APE, Scenario Dreams, etc. would think about their electronic boards now longer being needed in the market for the top dog gun??? You think they would be okay with that?? Again,... more complaints will be filed with the tourney series saying that the Mags are "un-safe".

Well they would be "un-safe" seeing how they are not controlled like the capped ramping guns.

Fourth,.... SMART PARTS. Think long and hard,..... no more speedy electronic guns. A manual gun can replace that now. You think Smart Parts has ANY PATENT GROUND to stand on with AGD?? Nope. Not if they are all manual guns. No more royalties. Once more,.. another complaint filed saying mags are "un-safe".

See above, and my goodness you come up with the most random..off topic ****

I know,... I ranted alot. But remember to think on an ETHICAL term when you read this and comment. If apples were apples, there was no middle,... your either on this side or that side. (Anyone that has taken an Ethics College Course will know what Im talking about)

Do you think that ramping is fair now?? I dont. I think its a cheap way out.
Ramping is the cheap way out,but bounce is just fine? Huh...explain that to me please, oh wait numerous mag owners have tried justifying that numerous times.

Thats all!!

PS: I own 4 mags,... but I also own 3 Shockers, 3 Cockers, a pump, etc. So I am NOT mag bias! I do shoot my other guns every year!


Wow...

[RogueFactor]

It takes less skill to:

1) Shoot a ramping electro than it does a semi-electro.
2) Shoot a semi-electro than it does a semi-mechanical.
3) Shoot a semi-mechanical than it does to shoot an Auto-Trigger pump.
4) Shoot an Auto-Trigger pump than a non-AT pump.

Dude,.. whats your address? Because Im baking you a cake so you can have something sweet to go with the truth. I totally didnt think beyond a semi-auto with my post.
Your post right after mine is soooooooooooo sweet!!! (stroking the Sniper II w/o CCM autotrigger kit) :headbang:

Dont forget. Of the 4 examples listed ... ramping is the only one that doesnt require skill. As long as there are 3 pulls, its all marker. A computer doesnt have "skill".

[CKY_Alliance]

Because everyone on AO(except a few) know the truth.

...It takes no skill to ramp. Its a triple tap. 3 pulls. The rest is all computer. Since when did 3 trigger pulls qualify as having skill?

...It takes little skill to point a ramping marker. So little skill, that everyone can point. I didnt know that pointing was a really hard skill to master?



In a shooting sport, the skill of shooting is a requisite skill. Having to pull the trigger, for every pull, requires more skill than not. Which is true whether its a bouncing mag or a ramping electro.

It takes less skill to:

1) Shoot a ramping electro than it does a semi-electro.
2) Shoot a semi-electro than it does a semi-mechanical.
3) Shoot a semi-mechanical than it does to shoot an Auto-Trigger pump.
4) Shoot an Auto-Trigger pump than a non-AT pump.

And tapping a trigger takes Oh so much skill developement(since you want to look at things so simplyu)in reality: learning to walk the trigger can take some time, as can learning to "point" the gun accuratley....soo after tapping the trigger a few times the computer moves for you, "aims" for you, and communicates..wow what marker are you shooting?


ok it's a "shooting sport" so shooting is a requisite..doesn't shooting include pulling the trigger and Pointing the gun? So your ramping..you still pull the trigger and you still have to point the gun..so how does ramping take away from it being a shooting sport, or make it any easier of a sport?


If you pull the trigger 3 times or 60 times..you still posess the skill of pulling a trigger...

[Big Boy]

Ramping takes skill out of it in many ways, but one particularly...the ability to handle a gun. "So you aren't good enough to walk a trigger? Lets just electrically fix that."

Part of your skill is the ability to fire your gun, I have never used anything but straight semi...when I even use a semi...

Next thing you know we are going to have electric bats in baseball because the guy couldn't swing hard enough to hit a homer...

[mag_lover05]

i thought the same thing...im just to lazy to reply to all that.

[RogueFactor]

And tapping a trigger takes Oh so much skill developement(since you want to look at things so simplyu)in reality: learning to walk the trigger can take some time, as can learning to "point" the gun accuratley....soo after tapping the trigger a few times the computer moves for you, "aims" for you, and communicates..wow what marker are you shooting?

ok it's a "shooting sport" so shooting is a requisite..doesn't shooting include pulling the trigger and Pointing the gun? So your ramping..you still pull the trigger and you still have to point the gun..so how does ramping take away from it being a shooting sport, or make it any easier of a sport?

If you pull the trigger 3 times or 60 times..you still posess the skill of pulling a trigger...

Short-stroking happens for a reason my friend. Humans dont pull the trigger the same way every time. Its called trigger discipline. And its an acquired skill.

No matter how you cut it, ramping doesnt require skill. You can try to justify it all you want in your mind, it just doesnt.

One pull/release, one shot. Anything else is not the player shooting. And THATs how it takes away from it being a shooting sport...when the player isnt doing the shooting.

[CKY_Alliance]

Short-stroking happens for a reason my friend. Humans dont pull the trigger the same way every time. Its called trigger discipline. And its an acquired skill.

No matter how you cut it, ramping doesnt require skill. You can try to justify it all you want in your mind, it just doesnt.

One pull/release, one shot. Anything else is not the player shooting. And THATs how it takes away from it being a shooting sport...when the player isnt doing the shooting.


Short-stroking...short-stroking happens on mags and slider frame'd cockers....Now your changing the skill set on me..first its pulling the trigger now its trigger discipline? and no they are not the same thing...

ramping may not require skill ill agree with you there,but it doesn't take away from the difficulty of the game...and how much skill does pulling a trigger really take anyway..i mean come on..


But the player is doing the shooting...just not all of the shots..they are still pulling the trigger and they are still aiming..which is shooting...aiming and then pulling the trigger in order to eject a projectile twards a target...

[mag_lover05]

roguefactor...play a game in the PSP...then tell me that ramping means you have skill. just because you use ramping doesnt mean you are some arrogant **** who thinks that he has a ton of skill and doesnt really have any and just ramps. i know GREAT players personally who cant walk the trigger fast at all, but are dynomite on the field, they are fast, agile, fearless, great all around players and have great attitudes. the one thing that lets them be on par with everyone in the PSP (where they play) is ramping. if it was semi, so many great athletes wouldnt be able to play.

[RogueFactor]

Short-stroking...short-stroking happens on mags and slider frame'd cockers....Now your changing the skill set on me..first its pulling the trigger now its trigger discipline? and no they are not the same thing...

Right...when you pull the trigger :tard:

Play semantics all you want. Trigger discipline is how the trigger is pulled. And includes all the subset skills required to hit a target accurately, including aiming. Trigger discipline is taught in firearms training and sports shooting, of all kinds.


But the player is doing the shooting...just not all of the shots.

Then a player isnt doing the shooting. Its all or nothing. There isnt a shade of grey for this. Either the player fired the marker, or the computer did. In ramping mode, its the computer.


they are still pulling the trigger and they are still aiming..which is shooting...aiming and then pulling the trigger in order to eject a projectile twards a target...

Wow. Cool. You can triple tap and point. And you wonder why so many AO'ers think that it takes no skill to shoot someone with a ramping marker. :rolleyes:

[RogueFactor]

i know GREAT players personally who cant walk the trigger fast at all, but are dynomite on the field, they are fast, agile, fearless, great all around players and have great attitudes. the one thing that lets them be on par with everyone in the PSP (where they play) is ramping.

Come on. Think about what you just said...

So should we remove all the requisite skills of baseball so Michael Jordan can play? You know, because he is a dynomite athlete that is fast, agile, fearless, great all around player and has a great attitude. We should lower the skills required to play baseball because there are great athletes out there that want to play it.

Seriously? Is that what you are suggesting?



if it was semi, so many great athletes wouldnt be able to play.

Then they arent great athletes in the sport of paintball. They lack 1 of the 2 rudimentary skills this sport requires.

[REDRT]

There is plenty of variety in paintball. You don't have to use ramping or an e-marker period if you don't want to and it's fine if you do. It is pointless to argue. There is aspects of the game for everyone to have fun in their own way and with others that share the same interests. To each his own and respect other players in what they choose. My $.02

[BD_Paintball]

as a person who uses semi b/c we play semi in college, when we practice sometimes i will put my ramping on my proto and its a lot easer to shoot people. i can shoot in the 12-15 range when i walk my gun( yes its legal). i guess when you ramp you dont have to move your hand as much so you aim better at long range. you also have a constant stream of 15 coming out of your gun. you dont have to go back behind your bunker to reload. just shoot with one hand and load with the other while you are shooting. i guess when i use ramping i can think more about what is going on around me which allows me to play better and shoot more people. its much easer to shoot with one hand at one spot and head check another to see if there is a shot.

[mag_lover05]

REDRT we know everyone has there own opinions and everyone has them set in stone. its just fun to talk about.

rougue, i mean they are great athletes in paintball, they can tuck in extremely tight, they shoot with PERFECT posture, can dive, slide perfectly. the only thing they cant do is walk the trigger fast while do that.... wich is actuallly difficult to do. bassically, ramping allows you to focus more on moving than pulling the trigger consistantly. less to think about. keeps the game fast paced and action packed.

pumps are alike...except slower and not as action packed. still fast and lets you focus on moving...but less paint.

[p8ntbal4me]

Wow...

Im going to answer your questions,.. but its very clear after your response that you didnt even read my post. If you did,.. you would see that in the very first question I explained my point. Very first question you asked:

CKY_Alliance: "where were you going with this?"

Well I used the NPPL and the PSP today to EXPLAIN how players have changed the way they play BECAUSE OF THE SERIES OF TOURNEY THEY PLAY,.... NOT THE FACT THAT THEY ALLOW A FIRE MODE. You OBVIOUSLY missed that, and that I praised the tourny scene for making the game evolve a player and NOT a firing mode.

CKY_Alliance: "How does it damage the image? Most "outsiders" see/hear ramping and it amazes them, for some new players it scares them,but they have already chosen to play so they are not so much outsiders.. "

Because we all have to start some place. Seriously tell me that you just jumped into tourney play without ever being young and owning basic equipment. Tell me that, and everyone on here will call you a liar (no, Im not calling you a liar,... dont even know you). Take a player like,... umm,.. Olie Lang,... I dont know how old he is,.. but he didnt just get up one morning and instead of playing some rec-ball or whatever after his fisrt day out, he bought a EGO/DM whatever (I really dont know what he shoots) and start making head lines because he was BORN to play tourney. And Im not saying that RAMPING made him the player he is. Hes a good player bcause he EVOLVED into that player. I had to get my start just like everyone else,.... playing CFOA for 3 years was not for me,... too expensive and time consuming. But I had played my first game at age 11, then the second at 12, and continued like that till I was 14,... then I REALLY started to play. You think as a parent, knowing NOTHING ABOUT PAINTBALL only that you shoot people with a gun, seeing a breakout happen and 10 guns shooting in ramp, you think a mother watching that droppng off her kid would like her son to be invloved in that type of play on the first day??? No. Its good in the sense that the kid thinks they are "full auto" and that they want guns like that, and they want to play, etc. I think RAMPING is good in that sense because it draws interest in main stream media (EPSN PSP Series on TV) to focus on our sport. I think its bad because parents dont want to see their kid get shot 15-30 times like that. It has its goods and its bads.

CKY_Alliance: "Interesting, most people would argue the opposite,that it makes the bad players on a level playing field with the good players,atleast for trigger speed."

I agree because you no longer have to focus on the gun,.... now its all about the team. If your teamate to teamate communication sucks on the field,.. well,... you know what happens. Thats why I agree with you on the ramping in this aspect. Dont take me all "RAMPING IS BAD, RAMPING IS THE DEVIL" because I dont. I do see the value in EVERY detail we have in the sport. I also see that it would be MORE of a challenge to make a player rely on the marker as well as the teamates he plays with. Its an opinion,.. we agree to disagree.

CKY_Alliance: "ummm...ok..the player not ramping is shooting faster..what's your point because I have somehow missed it"

You missed it because you didnt read the statement. I know you didnt because only in the paragraph BELOW did I mention BPS cap. The statement you "missed the point to" was a relationship between ramping by code and ramping by ELECTRONIC BOUNCE. Read it again,... its all there. They both achived the same max ROF,... one used ramping, the other used electronic switch bounce.

CKY_Alliance: "Are you aware that all guns have mechanics and are capable of mecanical bounce..there for you I would not get mad because your "mechanical" gun with a electronic frame is faster then my "Ego"...Your not posting to answer my question your posting to try and make Mags out to be the Ultimate gun..which no one cares..go post in one of the other 800 "mags are so awsome" threads..which if thats your opinion then so be it. "

Lol,.. okay. So are YOU aware that all electronic guns have electronic bounce? You missed the point again. Both guns had the same limitation on max ROF allowed. Both guns were allowed to USE A METHOD NOT BASED ON THE ACTUAL SPEED OF THE PLAYERS FINGERS. Hence, thats what ramping and bounce are,.... The point was to show you that the guns were (based on the rules of the test) allowed to run out a max BPS of 40 IF the GUN could achive it. The "Mag" CAN achive a ROF of 37BPS,.... the "EGO" can not. Fine,.. to proove that Im not making the mag out to be the BEST GUN EVA,.. I will put down the EGO with A DIFFERENT GUN,.... The AKA Viking CAN achive a max BPS of 35BPS,.... the EGO CANT!!!!!!!! You happy now??? I guess you didnt see the part at the bottm where I said I use other guns than mags,... but SINCE THIS IS A MAG FORUM,... I chose to use that one for an example.

CKY_Alliance: "Are they? Wait what does it matter..the question wasn't whats the fastest gun?"

Yes,.. they are the fastest gun on the market. No,.. it wasnt the point. The question was why does the features of one gun make it okay to use in a tourney but another guns features not okay. What I mean is look at todays electronic programming. Common registry settings FOR ALL MAKES OF BOARDS are: Fire Mode, Max ROF, Dwell, Debounce (mech and elec). Because the EGO has these features and the mag doesnt,... why do you think mags are not allowed but the EGO is. Here is the OTHER point you missed. Stated earlier,... GAME PLAY EVOLVES. So in saying that, the market must evolve with the game,.. right? I mean,.. makers of boards, guns, accessories arent in this for the thrill of it,... they are in it to make money. So let me put it like this,... forget the EGO. Lets go with an E-cocker (e-bladed, raced, whatever you know best) and an E-Mag. The cocker and the mag are going to have mechanical bounce, and electronic bounce,.. do you agree? It is because of these guns firing the way they do that a pannel of people say "Wait a minute,... players arent actually pulling the trigger that fast,.. they are using the gun to work the trigger to "bounce". So they make a rule, in the interest of safety or fairness (just pick one) stating that the guns must not fire in such a way that they bounce. That you, the player, must pull your trigger so you can earn the BPS you want to fire. So,.. umm,.. tell me again,.. why that is ANY different than ramping. Because Im pretty sure that RAMPING means you dont actually shoot 15BPS,.. the computer says "well,... your almost there,.. so heres a couple more balls to put you where you need to be."

CKY_Alliance: "Umm ok...I think if uncapped ramping or full auto is allowed..i don't think they are going to care what your Mech mag is doing.. "

Then explain why an E-Mag with PSP loaded software is deemed as "mechanical bounce illegal" dude. Explain why bouncing ANY trigger on ANY gun with PSP software capped is illegal. You dont make any point here,......

CKY_Alliance: "Umm they can't? why wouldn't they boycott it...they are capping the E-guns at 15 because it is intintional adding of shots, oh wait cranking up your air input is the same thing.. "

They cant because THATS THEIR JOB,.. they get paid to play. What, you think Olie Lang is still gonna get a check from Virute if he switched to a Taedo board? They are capping e-guns at 15 because its adding intentional adding of shots??? What? I think you dont know what your talking about for one,.. and what I think you ment to say if you knew was that they are capping e-guns at 15 because of the force of a string of paintballs consentrated in the head in the amont of 15 shots in 1 second would not cause a player to become unconcious but more than that would (they did studies on this based on mask/lens impact, force applied to induce head trama, etc) Cranking up the input pressure on a gun doesnt give you more added shots,.. (shaking my head),.. it allows a quicker response time for the valve chamber to "fill" again so the marker can be ready to fire. What do yo think happens when you are almost out of air and you are shooting fast? The guns string of paint starts to drop off (hence the name "drop off") If youstop shooting for a second,... then rip again,.. a few balls will fly good and far, but then the other will start to drop off. Same thing with pressure input,... if the gun isnt at its operational input pressure it wil not function the way the manufacturer intends to market it as. (you honestly think an EGO would sell good if it came set with a pressure that after a string of 15 balls it started to drop off? Mags need (depending on the version) anywhere from 600-800 psi to operate the way the manufacturer intended. Boosting the pressure only allows the valve on a mag to recharge quicker, hence why the mag is cappable of firing FASTER than the EGO. You take the EGO frame right off the gun,.. rig it up so it will trip the sear of a mag and fire the gun with the EGO frame on it,... the mag will do the SAME EXACT THING. Its not the rampig that gives a gun its speed, its the mechanics. Ramping is both a benefit and a hinderance. It benefits the players ability to achive a certain programmed BPS but it is only hindered by the mechanics of the gun. <------ here you are just picking on mags because you dont want to be wrong.

Forget guns and look at loaders. Why you think companies like Empire, VL, etc list the loaders as having 35BPS, 32+BPS,.. but they dont tell you that those numbers are free falling rate and in little print on the inside of the manuals (also found on the information of after market board makers) stating "BPS limited only my the mechanics of the marker/loader" Heres the link for the WAS Viking Board (look under the "Technical information about the Equalizer" section) (http://www.wickedairsports.com/proddetail.php?prod=WAS-EQAKA)

If you cant follow the link,... here is what it says: "Rate of fire: limited only by the pneumatics. Approximately 40+bps." <------- wow,.. thats fast,.. but wait a minute,... im a mag lover and EGO hater,.. why would I proove that the mag is not the fastest gun? Probley because of the truth in the statement on the WAS web page!


CKY_Alliance: "Well they would be "un-safe" seeing how they are not controlled like the capped ramping guns."
Again,... why is the mag the exception to the rule. Emags have PSP software in them,... they can be capped. So if they can be capped and they can bounce,... can I use it????? No. Dude Ive been there with an E-Mag when they came out,.... Refs hover over ANYTHING AGD on the field. You think a tourney player wants a judge on top of him the entire series,.....................??????????????

CKY_Alliance: "See above, and my goodness you come up with the most random..off topic **** "
Off the topic,...? Your telling me that Smart Parts put 17 patent extentions on their PVI Shocker Patent souly for "the betterment of the sport"? Paaaa-leeeease! THEY WANT MONEY! Im not off topic at all,... ur just not liking that Im taking a stance in EVERY field of the sport and not just,.... "RAMPING IS GOOD CAUSE I DONT OWN A MAG,.. RAMPING IS BAD BECAUSE I OWN A MAG" Come down to the place we call "market america" and sit for a session. Like I said,.... take electronic guns out of the loop all together,... whats left for fast guns????? The cocker,... been there. The Mag,.. been there. So one or the other,.... well,... cockers are fast,.. and they can rock a trigger about 20 BPS if you know what your doing. A Mag,... holy crap! A mag can fire 37BPS with no skill????? Ill take that!!! So I say again,... why is RAMPING skill but BOUNCING not??!!

CKY_Alliance: "Ramping is the cheap way out,but bounce is just fine? Huh...explain that to me please, oh wait numerous mag owners have tried justifying that numerous times."

Ill explain it again seeing how your not reading my posts anyways. Ramping is allowed, bouncing is not. Emags can bounce and the ROF can be capped. EGOS can ramp and the ROF be capped. Both guns can be capped, both require no skill so says you that all mag people say. So,... again,..... bouncing Illegal,.. ramping legal. RAMPING = SKILL / BOUNCING = NO SKILL? What you mean is,.... RAMPING = PERMITTED BECAUSE ELECTRONIC GUNS OTHER THAN AGD CAN BE MODIFIED AND MARKETED THAT WAY / BOUNCE = REQUIRES NO OUTSIDE AFTERMARKET ASSISTANCE THEREFORE AFTERMARKET BOARDS SALES (for example) MAKE ZERO DOLLARS!

If you dont think for one second that gun companies are in the tourney events to make money,... you need to stay on the AO more and get off PBN. Why do you think WAS is sueing the PSP and millenium series for false pretenses based on documented rules and regultions? WAS wrote software in compliance to the PSP rules. They have documented PROOF that the PSP was going to use cetain modes of fire,... and that RAMPIGN was unsafe and did not provide a positive image for the future of the sport. All of the sudden,.. PSP makes new rules and allowes ramping. Now why do you think they would do that?? Disregard a previous notion about safety and promote ramping,... hmmm,... money maybe??? Boards look more flashy and more marketable? PSP draws money for events by allowing fire modes intergraded by aftermarket board makers???? Naaaahhw!

You come to a specific gun forum and ask a question,.. then you want to flame me because I used the name of the gun marker hosts this forum for??

I didnt flame you,... I made examples and points. You asked a question,.. and I AGREED with you right off the top of why I thought RAMPING was good for the sport. I didnt need to defend RAMPING because it was obvious that you were PRO ramping in some ways and that you saw it as skill required in the game andnot what you called "everyone on here calling ramping no skill". Well I hate to burst ur bubble dude but I play pick up with a local team, I run an 06 Shocker SFT and I RAMP!!!!! why,.. because its in the rules that we can,.. and I want to play on th same level as my teamates when I do. Does that mean that I have less skill?? Yes and No. I made my points of my thoughts on ramping and why I thought it brings skill into the game and takes from it.

You read my post and got mad,... and decided to flame me because I made valid points and used a gun in an example that slapped me into the "mags are the best,.. everything else sucks" catagory. You don know me,.. and I dont know you. So dont talk to me on here like you KNOW what I was saying and that everything I say was an attack on you. If I didnt agree with you in the first place on the matter in some ways,.. do you think I would have said that ramping was okay or that I ramp as well????

But what I DO know,.. is that next time you come on here to slam someones opinion,.... you better come to class with some paper and a pencil, sit down, and listen because you obviously need to go back to school and learn a thing or two other than how many trigger pulls it takes to get ur "EGO" (pun TOTALLY intended!) into RAMP!

[RogueFactor]

i guess when you ramp you dont have to move your hand as much so you aim better at long range. you also have a constant stream of 15 coming out of your gun. you dont have to go back behind your bunker to reload. just shoot with one hand and load with the other while you are shooting. i guess when i use ramping i can think more about what is going on around me which allows me to play better and shoot more people. its much easer to shoot with one hand at one spot and head check another to see if there is a shot.

Precisely. Everything else becomes easier when you remove the skill of shooting from a shooting sport.


rougue, i mean they are great athletes in paintball, they can tuck in extremely tight, they shoot with PERFECT posture, can dive, slide perfectly. the only thing they cant do is walk the trigger fast while do that.... wich is actuallly difficult to do. bassically, ramping allows you to focus more on moving than pulling the trigger consistantly. less to think about. keeps the game fast paced and action packed.

Agreed. Michael Jordan had good hitting form. Ran the bases well. Fielded well too. About the only thing he couldnt do really well was hit a pitched baseball...which is actually difficult to do. Should we allow the use of a tee(you know, T-Ball) for those who lack hitting skill, so they can hit the ball? Less to think about, and would keep the game fast paced and action packed, right? Cuz hitting a pitched baseball shouldnt be a requisite skill in the sport of baseball.

Hopefully you see the analogy...lowering skill levels to accomodate the lowest common denominator is not good for a sport. Without shooting skill, ramping paintball is merely glorified dodgeball.


pumps are alike...except slower and not as action packed. still fast and lets you focus on moving...but less paint.

Pumps are alike...except that shooting a pump requires skill: shooting skill.

And the game is only slower for the spectator. Ask a pump player how fast and action packed it is. The only difference is the volume of paint in the air.

[Beemer]

I just had a beer[one] and maybe I should wait to post in this thread. :ninja:

Aww screw it.


Why does it seem that nearly everyone on AO(except a few) think that it takes no skill to shoot people with a ramping gun?

I dont think that. I use ALL my SKILL to shoot you. It dont matter to me if you ramp or not.
I have the skill to hit you or I dont. I know I turned that around. Depends on how you want to read it. :D It doesnt take no skill just less of it.

Ramping is for the girlie boys that cant pull fast. How fast did the SMG shoot? 10BPS?
It was outlawed know why? Can you say FullAuto. There was another reason too. Know what it was? That was before ASTM too. Whats the ASTM standard now? Not that it Matters or should it?

Know what USED to set the Pros apart from the average Joe Player back in the day. For me that was 86 to 99. 88 to 99 on the Tourny scene Pumps with and with out A.T., to SEMI ONLY. 12 grams to CA. It was how FAST they could pump or PULL 1s1p and still get on target. The tourny Boys now aint nothing special with Ramping. If they were they wouldnt need the ramp. The fast guys were always the first to get keyed on when we played.

You cry now when you take multi hits. Blame the gun, blame the player, blame the Rules. When it was still Semi we were taking 7 to 10 hits. :tard:

Anybody can run, move, slide, bla bla. It takes Skill and ability to shoot fast 1s1p and get on target. Trigger discipline. Oh ya squeeze it dont pull it.

Just for the record Im on the same page as Rogue. 1S1P. I shoot all Mags, X to Classic. They are all set up 1S1P. If I dont squeeze it, it aint shooting. I dont fear the ramping either. Bring it on. A GOOD fast Semi TEAM could beat a ramping team. :ninja:

Paintball used to be Smart why did we let it get stupid.

Damn I need another Brew

Peace Out.

Sig it cause I can and so could you if you wanted.

____________

http://home.comcast.net/~beemerone/AoIL.gif

[Beemer]

they are capping e-guns at 15 because of the force of a string of paintballs consentrated in the head in the amont of 15 shots in 1 second would not cause a player to become unconcious but more than that would (they did studies on this based on mask/lens impact, force applied to induce head trama, etc)

You dont post to much but when you do its good. :cheers:

This thread already took a left turn. Got any more info on these studies? One ball at 300fps at 20ft or less can cause serious head trauma. Also known as BFT[blunt force trauma]

[trevorjk]

You dont post to much but when you do its good. :cheers:

they are fricken books to! but good books :cool:

[Lohman446]

Because everyone on AO(except a few) know the truth.

...It takes no skill to ramp. Its a triple tap. 3 pulls. The rest is all computer. Since when did 3 trigger pulls qualify as having skill?

...It takes little skill to point a ramping marker. So little skill, that everyone can point. I didnt know that pointing was a really hard skill to master?


I'm still going to note that getting how fast one can twitch there fingers out of the skill set was a good move. By what you have said there it would seem that I could take any players at the field and jump right into X-ball against Dynasty and do ok.

Everything else becomes emphasized when you even the finger twitching ability. Take it out and the other skills become more important. Is it a learned skill? Sure it is. The point is many of us would like to see it removed from the skill set tested in paintball because it has become over emphasized by the spray and pray tactics that were obvious well before ramping came out.

[p8ntbal4me]

You dont post to much but when you do its good. :cheers:

This thread already took a left turn. Got any more info on these studies? One ball at 300fps at 20ft or less can cause serious head trauma. Also known as BFT[blunt force trauma]

It was taken from a few sources,.. teh one that sticks out is an article I say in APG.
Now,..BEFORE people start saying things about APG,.. let me cover myself.

I read an article in APG that talked about the new firing modes and such. In this article it tackled issues like, sportsmanship, ROF, gun technology, and safety. Mostly safety.

In the article they stressed how the modes of guns (cheater modes, ramping modes, drop shot modes for chrono cheating, etc) proove to be a huge safety concern.

I usually have dinner with my parents once every 2 weeks for family reasons,.. and my mother happens to be a nurse. She works in the ICU and sees alot of people filter in to the hospital with vehicle related incidents.

After explaining over dinner what the article was saying she explained it like this to make it simple: You take a bat and swing into someones head. Its knocks them out. Because of the force applied in such a massive area over the spread of the bat into an area prone to damage resulting in someone blacking out,.. possibly suffering more than that due to the blow. 1 paintballl going 200mph probley wont knock you out (we all know that but she doesnt), but if you were to multiply the contact over the same area like a bat does in a short amount of time, you most likely can knock someone out. The brain doesnt know the difference in a baseball bat to a paintball, or a baseball for that matter. It only knows that you are now in pain,... and that its registering to the rest of your body that it hurts and t needs to do something. Im not a doctor and I know almost nothing about the brain. but I know that if you screw up the signals it gets to function the rest of your body,.. it has to do SOMETHING to prevent you from dying because its loosing control,... so it shuts down.

I know thats kinda hard to swallow, but like I said. I know nothing about head trama,.... and my mother knows nothing about paintball. All I know is the reason for the 15BPS ROF cap on firing modes used in tourneys. Im looking for the rules now and the rule modifications to the reason why the cap is in place (Im sure its listed under the ammendments)

Im not disagreeing with you. I just want to make sure you know what I know. And all I know is the reasoning behind the rule thats in place. Other than that,... its all speculation to me.

[Lohman446]

Bat = constantly applied (or even increasing) force when it hits, heavy solid object

Paintball = decelerating 3 gram fragile object


Just not really good analogies

[REDRT]

I was once beat down by a few people with bats. They knocked me out after a few blows. Fractured my skull and I had a nasty headache for a couple weeks. First hand I can say a volley of paintballs isn't quite like a bat(s). Not that the idea doesn't have marit. A volley of balls to the head does smart. I always figured the reason was maybe the fear of goggle lence failing with sustained fire at a short range.

[p8ntbal4me]

I'm still going to note that getting how fast one can twitch there fingers out of the skill set was a good move. By what you have said there it would seem that I could take any players at the field and jump right into X-ball against Dynasty and do ok.

Everything else becomes emphasized when you even the finger twitching ability. Take it out and the other skills become more important. Is it a learned skill? Sure it is. The point is many of us would like to see it removed from the skill set tested in paintball because it has become over emphasized by the spray and pray tactics that were obvious well before ramping came out.

This is EXACLTY why I was sure CKY_Alliance didnt read my post because I agree with the RAMPING on this ideal. Take a piece of the game,... make a fast fingered trigger and a slow fingered trigger the same speed, and then you have to find another skill to make one player better than the other.

Like I stressed,.. I do agree with ramping in some ways, others I dont. If ramping does good to draw the media into our sport,.. then its good. Remember back in the 90s when ESPN aired the AAs still firing mags and the Patapalegic Turtles running cockers? Tourney style play (with the exception of the gun technology and the time span for games) was totally different. NPPL was running longer games, which ment harder to run commericals in. Sometimes the games would end quick due to a dead mans walk, etc. It was hard to keep the games on air because of the way the media runs its programming which has to do with timing.

Now comes todays style of tourney play. Games are much shorter, they dont ever last long because players want highers scores for shorter match times. Faster, easier firing modes to allow teams to work more in communication rather than the mechanics of the markers. It looks exciting to new players or people who know nothing about the sport. It appears to be not paintfull in some ways over the TV vice seeing it in person,... thats a good thing IMHO.

So with that said,... I agree with ramping. I dont agree with it in every aspect of the game,.... but for those reasons I adgree with CKY-Alliance on that it does do good some good for the sport.

I re-read some other posts,.. wanted to cover my bases. I noticed that CKY,.. your first post says that "and that snap shooting automatically happens magically because the gun is ramping". Ummm well I dont think you and the rest of the world agree on snap shooting and EXACTLY what that is. Snap shooting is the ability to take a SINGLE shot while moving the silouet of the front sight posts in reference to the rear sight post (in this case, the tip of the barrel to the rear of the marker) in a quick motion and scorng a hit. The term comes from military training. (The ability for a rifleman to spot a target, get into possision ((in a perfect example: Standing to prone,.. which hurts alot! and shoot in the shortest amount of time but score a hit) When I played in the CFOA,.. snap shooting was evolving the game so that players could shoot a high ROF and still keep the motion that makes snapp shooting so good of a concept in paintball in the game. So what we (the CFOA and now every other tourney series in the world that plays games at high ROF) found that you can get a better chance of hitting a player if you start shooting INSIDE your bunker (if you were behind a piece of hyper-ball tubing for example) and lean out to your markers side, you can keep your ROF up, the last ball to clear the bunker will not be seen or heard as far as a sound signature because shooting your bunker was louder and causes the player to have to re-adjust his thoughts where he thinks you might be, the string of shots and you comming around the side of the bunker will be seen at the very last minute. This gave players a HUGE advantage because it promoted their body and marker for a hit to the other team in the least amount of time possible, gave him some time to shoot a rope of paint, then tuck back in. Problem was,.. we were no longer snap shooting,.. we were playing peek-a-boo with machine guns!

If you dont believe that,.... go get your marker and put into "sniper mode, or snap shot mode" and fan the trigger. Whats your max ROF??? about 4BPS right???? Huh,.... why do you think that is? Why isnt snap shot mode just plain old ramping??? Its because the above statement is TRUE!!!! You are not snap shooting if your roping a target with paint and you come in and out of your bunker. I dont care what you say, its just not snap shooting.

I agree when you say that TIMING is a skill involved in snap shooting,.. TOTALLY AGREE! But high ROF takes that skill and dulls it because a player no longer shoots the target,.. they shoot the AREA OF THE TARGET multiple times over,... which happens to be called SUPRESSION FIRE and is COMPLETELY different!

[REDRT]

Here is a theory. Take NASCAR. I'm not fan, but it is big and lots of people watch it. To my understanding is that the cars are made to be the same, run the same. Now we all know there isn't nothing stock about a stock car, but one shouldn't be beat out by the next car in theory. It is more the driver than anything winning the race. My thoughts on ramping markers when they are in play is just like a stock car. Everybodys marker is close to equal like the a stock car is. So the markers don't win the game the players like the drivers do.
As I stated last night there is plenty of variety in paintball. People play with pumps, some like ramping and others like it somewhere in between. Play what you like to play and don't worry about the rest because you really don't have to. The arguement over skill and a direct correlation to a specific marker class to me is lame at best. :tard:

[p8ntbal4me]

Here is a theory. Take NASCAR. I'm not fan, but it is big and lots of people watch it. To my understanding is that the cars are made to be the same, run the same. Now we all know there isn't nothing stock about a stock car, but one shouldn't be beat out by the next car in theory. It is more the driver than anything winning the race. My thoughts on ramping markers when they are in play is just like a stock car. Everybodys marker is close to equal like the a stock car is. So the markers don't win the game the players like the drivers do.
As I stated last night there is plenty of variety in paintball. People play with pumps, some like ramping and others like it somewhere in between. Play what you like to play and don't worry about the rest because you really don't have to. The arguement over skill and a direct correlation to a specific marker class to me is lame at best. :tard:


This makes complete sense to me.

Im off for a while,.. gotta meet with the Clippard dude for my new parts!!! ;)

[JOESPUD27]

Because everyone on AO(except a few) know the truth.

...It takes no skill to ramp. Its a triple tap. 3 pulls. The rest is all computer. Since when did 3 trigger pulls qualify as having skill?
In a shooting sport, the skill of shooting is a requisite skill. Having to pull the trigger, for every pull, requires more skill than not. Which is true whether its a bouncing mag or a ramping electro.

It takes less skill to:

1) Shoot a ramping electro than it does a semi-electro.
2) Shoot a semi-electro than it does a semi-mechanical.
3) Shoot a semi-mechanical than it does to shoot an Auto-Trigger pump.
4) Shoot an Auto-Trigger pump than a non-AT pump.
Yep, you've got it. :cheers:

Jay

[RogueFactor]

I'm still going to note that getting how fast one can twitch there fingers out of the skill set was a good move.

We obviously disagree. I dont believe that firing any firearm, including a paintball marker, is done by twitching ones fingers. Firing a firearm or marker fast, with accuracy, is an acquired skill.

I also believe your premise is flawed. They didnt take "how fast one can twitch their fingers out of the skill set". They just made it about how fast you can "triple-twitch", rather than having to "twitch" for each shot.


By what you have said there it would seem that I could take any players at the field and jump right into X-ball against Dynasty and do ok.

When it comes to firing the marker, that would be accurate.


Everything else becomes emphasized when you even the finger twitching ability. Take it out and the other skills become more important.

I totally agree. This is a shooting sport though. The requisite of shooting skill shouldnt be removed from a shooting sport to emphasize other skills or allow everyones skill to be equal. The skill of shooting is the most basic and rudimentary skill that should be required to participate effectively in a game based on shooting.


The point is many of us would like to see it removed from the skill set tested in paintball because it has become over emphasized by the spray and pray tactics that were obvious well before ramping came out.

You should want the exact opposite for a true test of skill set, by your own statement.

Spray & Pray is largely an ineffective tactic because of its inherent innacuracy. The innacuracy of this method is implied by its very name. The only benefit of Spray & Pray is volume.

Ramping however allows a player to put down volumes of paint, same as Spray & Pray, but with accuracy because accuracy comes from the combination of all the subset skills of shooting.

If anything, ramping is over-emphasizing the spray & pray tactics. When in reality, shooting skill can only be measured and tested comparitively if the player is shooting every ball.

[Lohman446]

Shooting is far more than just pulling a trigger. My point about spray and pray - it existed before ramping...

[RogueFactor]

Shooting is far more than just pulling a trigger. My point about spray and pray - it existed before ramping...

Totally agree. Shooting skill requires that, and more(to be accurate anyway). I think I stated that though...


Trigger discipline is how the trigger is pulled. And includes all the subset skills required to hit a target accurately, including aiming. Trigger discipline is taught in firearms training and sports shooting, of all kinds.

[REDRT]

I dont believe that firing any firearm, including a paintball marker...

If anything, ramping is over-emphasizing the spray & pray tactics. When in reality, shooting skill can only be measured and tested comparitively if the player is shooting every ball.
My arse! I'd suppose a person shooting a shotgun has no skill since one trigger pull sends many tiny pellets down range? I figure I can use this as an example since you've already classified a marker as a firearm. :rolleyes:

[RogueFactor]

My arse! I'd suppose a person shooting a shotgun has no skill since one trigger pull sends many tiny pellets down range? I figure I can use this as an example since you've already classified a marker as a firearm. :rolleyes:

My arse!!! :eek:

Apples & Oranges, dude.

You are trying to compare the accuracy of the pellets of a shotgun shell(which cannot be controlled by the shooter) to the multiple individual shots of spray n pray tactic(which can be controlled by the shooter).

Non-Sequitir. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/non%20sequitur) Try again.

[REDRT]

My arse!!! :eek:

Apples & Oranges, dude.

You are trying to compare the accuracy of the pellets of a shotgun shell(which cannot be controlled by the shooter) to the multiple individual shots of spray n pray tactic(which can be controlled by the shooter).



But if you read into the arguement. There is to "some" no control and or skill in firing mutiple balls out of marker with enhancements like ramping. Make no mistake about it,"there is still control". Just like there is control firing of a shotgun. You have control of your swing and your choke to munipulated the spread of your shot pattern to hit your intended target at a given range.
There is always going to be positive and negative aspects to almost everything. One can argue the pros and cons about it all day long. I think Lohman brought it up, there was what is called, "spray and pray" long before ramping came into play. I really believe if one really thinks about it long enough. It isn't the techno stuff we have today making the game any less fun it is more the players we have today making things seem that way.
Ramping is an easy target to blame all the bad mojo on because it has made a huge impact on the game. In reality todays super markers are more like "stock cars" they all do the same basic thing and it is the person behind the trigger making the plays. I say there is less gap now than ever on the tourney field with them. Look at when the RTs made an appearance! Total domination. When everybody finaly caught up it was fine till the next day someone made something even better/faster. Today anyone can have a very capable marker and not go broke doing it. To be a well rounded player you have to learn many of the same skills as before and some new ones to be someone that really stands out of the crowd. The players I see blasting crap loads of paint and not hitting anything are now as they were then "turds". And thats the bottom line... ;)

[RogueFactor]

But if you read into the arguement. There is to "some" no control and or skill in firing mutiple balls out of marker with enhancements like ramping. Make no mistake about it,"there is still control". Just like there is control firing of a shotgun. You have control of your swing and your choke to munipulated the spread of your shot pattern to hit your intended target at a given range.

Your making my point for me. Shooting skill when firing a shotgun is done so by the shooter.

So, until shotguns are fired by a computer in rapid-fire sequence(ramping), I dont see your analogy making any sense.

[Zygote]

ramping may not require skill ill agree with you there,but it doesn't take away from the difficulty of the game...and how much skill does pulling a trigger really take anyway..i mean come on...


It certainly does remove some of the difficulty. If it didn't make the game easier why would players have risked getting caught and illegally ramped in the first place with the cheater boards that were such a big deal a few years ago? It gave them an advantage by removing the distraction of actually having to shoot their gun.

Whether legal ramping is a good thing or not can be debated. Whether it makes playing the game easier can not.

[Lohman446]

Whether legal ramping is a good thing or not can be debated. Whether it makes playing the game easier can not.

Oh? I would argue that is very open for debate. If it makes it easier to eliminate someone it makes it conversly harder to not be eliminated.

[Lohman446]

There is little argument that shooting fast without ramping is a skill that can be achieved through practice. Those who favor allowing ramping favor removing it from the skill set (which we have effectively done).

Thos who oppose ramping can do so on a number of grounds. One obviously is that it should be part of the skill set tested in a game. Valid, logical argument, however no more valid than the argument that it should not be allowed. If you think it should be part of the skill set (or not) it is hard to produce a logical argument that would sway you as both sides seem to have sound, logical arguments.

The other argument is a safety argument - ramping obviously does not meet ASTM standards. Now the debate goes into if it is safe or not. Whatever side of the ramping argument you take can influence this. The safety argument certainly works against ramping but there is some question if it is a valid argument or not without a lot of data to support that it is necessarily unsafe. Many people chose to err on the side of safety and just assumei t unsafe.

Of course there is the manufacturer argument for ramping - it allows an obvious target goal of 15BPS, brings down the price, allows more profit... etc. I doubt many players would make this argument. Oddly I bet its one of the main reasons we now have it.

Add to it the promotor argument, it makes it easier to enforce rules, evens the fields with the cheaters, etc. A bit of a cop out but true to a degree.

[RogueFactor]

Today anyone can have a very capable marker and not go broke doing it. ;)

True. Instead, now they go broke playing the game.

Every sport has its "sunk cost" of buying equipment. It's the "recurring cost" of playing that is the biggest detractor for most. $100 per day of play, on average, on any continual basis, is more than this industries target market(14-22) can bare.

So, instead of more people playing the game, more people buy markers that they can mount on their wall and admire(because they cant afford to play a 15 bps game).

Good for mfr's, bad for the sport.


If you think it should be part of the skill set (or not) it is hard to produce a logical argument that would sway you as both sides seem to have sound, logical arguments.

For me, its easy to produce one to sway. A shooting sport should require player shooting skill as part of the skillset. It doesnt get any more basic than that.

How anyone can make the argument that a shooting sport shouldnt require the players have the skill of shooting as part of the skillset is a mystery to me. It would be like saying sprinting shouldnt require twitching your legs as part of the skillset, and I should be able to buy an ACME rocket to strap to my back to aid me in getting to the finish line.

When you can purchase an abilty that you otherwise dont have, it detracts from the sport. If a player who could only shoot 5 bps can purchase a board to shoot 15 bps, that isnt skill. If a player cant shoot off-hand can do so with ramp, that isnt an acquired skill---its been purchased.

The only argument Ive heard, and isnt a good, logical, or sound one...is that removing shooting from a shooting sport emphasizes moving. Interestinly, playing pump does the same thing---without having to remove skill to do so.

[p8ntbal4me]

There is little argument that shooting fast without ramping is a skill that can be achieved through practice. Those who favor allowing ramping favor removing it from the skill set (which we have effectively done).

Thos who oppose ramping can do so on a number of grounds. One obviously is that it should be part of the skill set tested in a game. Valid, logical argument, however no more valid than the argument that it should not be allowed. If you think it should be part of the skill set (or not) it is hard to produce a logical argument that would sway you as both sides seem to have sound, logical arguments.

The other argument is a safety argument - ramping obviously does not meet ASTM standards. Now the debate goes into if it is safe or not. Whatever side of the ramping argument you take can influence this. The safety argument certainly works against ramping but there is some question if it is a valid argument or not without a lot of data to support that it is necessarily unsafe. Many people chose to err on the side of safety and just assumei t unsafe.

Of course there is the manufacturer argument for ramping - it allows an obvious target goal of 15BPS, brings down the price, allows more profit... etc. I doubt many players would make this argument. Oddly I bet its one of the main reasons we now have it.

Add to it the promotor argument, it makes it easier to enforce rules, evens the fields with the cheaters, etc. A bit of a cop out but true to a degree.

This is why I BELIEVE we have capped ramping. I just cant see how its a good thing that you can not manually shoot 15BPS but the computer can give you that ROF. It all depends on the side you take that makes it good or bad. I agree with the fact that there is people out there that want to cheat and use the system to their advantage,... I think that there are always going to be good and bad no matter what side you take. Point being,.. someone is going to make out better over those that dont stand to make out at all in the deal. My example would be any manual gun over a ramping gun. If you can manually get your gun to fire up to the max ROF of 15BPS and you have an computer in your gun that makes it IMMPOSSIBLE to go above that ROF,... whats the deal with other guns that use the computer to get them up to that point and then cap their ROF at 15BPS. However you get there,.... you get there. The safety concern with the ROF is the same,... 15BPS. Why we cnt use bouncing guns that have a ROF cap is beyond me. Just my 2 cents,... now Im broke!

I just wanted to say that this is an AWESOME TOPIC. There is so much you can learn from the simple question of what is right and wrong and how you can proove your point to everyone else.

I hope this thread keeps going because I am enjoying the sides being drawn and the debate. Really good points on here. :cheers:

[Lohman446]

True. Instead, now they go broke playing the game.

Every sport has its "sunk cost" of buying equipment. It's the "recurring cost" of playing that is the biggest detractor for most. $100 per day of play, on average, on any continual basis, is more than this industries target market(14-22) can bare.

So, instead of more people playing the game, more people buy markers that they can mount on their wall and admire(because they cant afford to play a 15 bps game).

Good for mfr's, bad for the sport.



For me, its easy to produce one to sway. A shooting sport should require player shooting skill as part of the skillset. It doesnt get any more basic than that.

How anyone can make the argument that a shooting sport shouldnt require the players have the skill of shooting as part of the skillset is a mystery to me. It would be like saying sprinting shouldnt require twitching your legs as part of the skillset, and I should be able to buy an ACME rocket to strap to my back to aid me in getting to the finish line.

When you can purchase an abilty that you otherwise dont have, it detracts from the sport. If a player who could only shoot 5 bps can purchase a board to shoot 15 bps, that isnt skill. If a player cant shoot off-hand can do so with ramp, that isnt an acquired skill---its been purchased.

The only argument Ive heard, and isnt a good, logical, or sound one...is that removing shooting from a shooting sport emphasizes moving. Interestinly, playing pump does the same thing---without having to remove skill to do so.

How effective has that argument been at swaying Rogue? You've produced a good sound byte, not a convincing argument

[REDRT]

Your making my point for me. Shooting skill when firing a shotgun is done so by the shooter.

So, until shotguns are fired by a computer in rapid-fire sequence(ramping), I dont see your analogy making any sense.

My point was that you can control the multiple shot pellets of a shotgun to hit your target (when you claimed you can't) just like you can control the paint fired from a electronically enhanced paintball marker with ramping modes to hit your target. As a recap you first classed the firearm to the marker so I went with it. My arguement is that even though a shotgun and a ramping marker is a ridiculous parody it still works out in a not so abstract sort of way. Back in the begining markers were more like a rifle or a pistol. One round per pull. Today we still have this one ball per pull in our snap shooting and so forth, but we also have ramping which does things much faster than what we could do humanly. Sometimes adding in shots and thus multiple shots are in the air more so than even the fastest fingers on a straight semi marker could do repeatedly. This is sort of like the single blast of a shotgun. Multiple shots one outcome if the triggerman is on target. If anything there is added skills that you have to possess now than back in the day to be a well rounded player. Seems the focus is on walking or faning the trigger vrs what ramping software has done. I'm saying there is the same skills only modified and honed differently with some added to be a competitive player, a well rounded player of today. The game has evolved, as has the equipment and the player had to follow. As I said before, "there is variety in paintball" . You don't have to do/play anything you don't want to. For thoughs of us that don't like high speed ramping markers or just want to play with our older markers there is games for all of us to take part in, to turn back the hands of time and enjoy being retro with like minded people.

[turbo chicken]

the answer to why is because the people that don't care don't post ... typically the ones who are real passionate(probably a strech) about something are the ones that speak out ... and that's what you see ...

id be willing to bet if you asked yes, no, undecided, or don't care in a poll... you'd get a good mixture of everything ...

[RogueFactor]

How effective has that argument been at swaying Rogue? You've produced a good sound byte, not a convincing argument

Its been pretty effective actually. Just working on the last few holdouts :D Dont think I will succeed with them though, they are stubborn. :p

But the glory is in the effort ;)



My point was that you can control the multiple shot pellets of a shotgun to hit your target (when you claimed you can't) just like you can control the paint fired from a electronically enhanced paintball marker with ramping modes to hit your target.

You can individually control the pellets coming out of a shotgun shell? Really? You mean, you can say "I want pellet 12 to go left 6 ft , and 2 ft high, and pellet 4 to go 2 ft right, and 3 ft. high"?

If so, Ive got to see this, do you have video?

[p8ntbal4me]

You can individually control the pellets coming out of a shotgun shell? Really? You mean, you can say "I want pellet 12 to go left 6 ft , and 2 ft high, and pellet 4 to go 2 ft right, and 3 ft. high"?

If so, Ive got to see this, do you have video?

I KNEW you were going to say that!! LOL :rofl:

[REDRT]

"RogueFactor"




You sure come off as pretty dense.

2 a : slow to understand : STUPID, THICKHEADED <was too dense to get the joke>

[RogueFactor]

"RogueFactor"

You sure come off as pretty dense.

2 a : slow to understand : STUPID, THICKHEADED <was too dense to get the joke>

It only comes across that way on the internet.But, maybe you are right. I am too dense to see the correllation between your examples, and your intellect went right over my head.

Ive had this same discussion with a Jr. Olympic Skeet Shooter. He understood completely about trigger discipline, and the skill required to shoot accurately. And that ramping/bouncing/full-auto removes that skill.

[p8ntbal4me]

It only comes across that way on the internet.But, maybe you are right. I am too dense to see the correllation between your examples, and your intellect went right over my head.

Ive had this same discussion with a Jr. Olympic Skeet Shooter. He understood completely about trigger discipline, and the skill required to shoot accurately. And that ramping/bouncing/full-auto removes that skill.


Hey Rogue,.. whats up wit your site?? I wanted to get some frames from you but cant even get into the site now. I got any prices on products you offer you can PM me?? Frames, triggers, bodies, etc. Pics would be nice too!!!

Still working out my design on my frame internals,.. need to make sure they interface with other frames. Thanks!

[RogueFactor]

Hey Rogue,.. whats up wit your site?? I wanted to get some frames from you but cant even get into the site now. I got any prices on products you offer you can PM me?? Frames, triggers, bodies, etc. Pics would be nice too!!!

Still working out my design on my frame internals,.. need to make sure they interface with other frames. Thanks!

My site(www.roguepaintballgear.com & www.roguesportz.com) are both under construction. You can e-mail me at rogue@roguesportz.com ,and I will get you hooked up.

If you prefer to buy from an online retailer that carries my product, I refer that business to www.themagsmith.com & www.tunamart.com . They are most times cheaper than if you buy directly from me.

either way, hit me up with an e-mail and let me know what you are looking for.

Thanks!

[REDRT]

It only comes across that way on the internet.But, maybe you are right. I am too dense to see the correllation between your examples, and your intellect went right over my head.



Bottom line is ramping is hear to stay. You don't have to understand it, like it or use it. Trigger control and discipline are both still very much a part of using any E-marker. Even with ramping software. Perhaps I was wrong to think you'd understand any of this? I tried, but apparently you haven't moved up the evolutionary scale enough to fully comprehend just how the game and equipment has advanced over the years. Maybe in the mean time you be better off playing with sticks and stones? :rolleyes:

I'm done here...

[RogueFactor]

Bottom line is ramping is hear to stay.

That has yet to be decided. So, it isnt the bottom line. Its here for now. All it will take is one lawsuit to change things. Its just a matter of time, IMO.

And since the NPPL doesnt allow ramping, those who dont believe in it have a choice. And with the recent NPPL purchase to be backed by a well-funded conglomerate...Id imagine its going to stay non-ramping for a while. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

And insurance companies that underwite field owners dont allow ramping, so any field that does runs the risk of losing their shorts.

So, it isnt as "here to stay" as one might think. Thats the bottom line.


You don't have to understand it, like it or use it. Trigger control and discipline are both still very much a part of using any E-marker. Even with ramping software.

I do understand it, dont like, and dont use it. Trigger control and discipline are both a part of using a semi-auto e-marker. Thats the bottom line.


Perhaps I was wrong to think you'd understand any of this? I tried, but apparently you haven't moved up the evolutionary scale enough to fully comprehend just how the game and equipment has advanced over the years.

Perhaps. But Ive moved up the evolutionary scale enough to fully comprehend that ramping is not an advancement of the game, or equipment.

Cheers :cheers: