Windows Vista

[bornl33t]

I have been reading about the new vista beta 2 release. I'm finding alot of interesting information but nothing that sways me to either jump on the bandwagon or hate it. Without pitching the MAC OS or whatever Linux releases there are what does everyone think about the new VISTA? Good OR bad?

I'll start by posting that WMA's and AAC's suck because I will never use DRM's. (somewhat unrelated).
Secondly with VISTA as I see it hd-dvd piracy will be dead. Which I'm ok with.
Thirdly from what I've seen, the beta2 release is very buggy.

[bentothejam1n]

I have been reading about the new vista beta 2 release. I'm finding alot of interesting information but nothing that sways me to either jump on the bandwagon or hate it. Without pitching the MAC OS or whatever Linux releases there are what does everyone think about the new VISTA? Good OR bad?

I'll start by posting that WMA's and AAC's suck because I will never use DRM's. (somewhat unrelated).
Secondly with VISTA as I see it hd-dvd piracy will be dead. Which I'm ok with.
Thirdly from what I've seen, the beta2 release is very buggy.
i was just about to make a thread about this....

[bornl33t]

i was just about to make a thread about this....

seriously, I'm hearing alot of gosip about vista but no pros and cons. Maybe we'll hit a smart kid and we'll both learn some thing!

[jenarelJAM]

I too would like to know.

[thecavemankevin]

Thirdly from what I've seen, the beta2 release is very buggy.

rule of thumb, never be first to adopt new OS...wait for a year for bugs to be worked out.

as for vista: let me put it in annalogy formate: automag is to gas/air as windows vista is to

a: memory
b: processor
c: all the above

is sure is pretty though

[tribalman]

for now, i am going to say Vista is bad.
as far as the "most secure OS yet" as the MS guys are claiming, how can something that was built from the ground up, with no real world test other than that stupid event in vegas where people were given a crack at it (and a school teacher managed to find a glitch in it), how can it be secure? during the developement of it did they throw viruses and such at the OS? "Allchin said that the security measures that had been put in place meant that Microsoft was a way ahead of the black hat hackers seeking to exploit vulnerabilities. ""That's to be proven, so we will see about that. But I need to say the following: Windows Vista is something that will have issues in security, because the bar is being raised over time. But in my opinion, it is the most secure system that's available, and it's certainly the most secure system that we've shipped. So I feel very confident that customers are far better off by using Windows Vista than they are with anything that we've released before."" (http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2006/11/10/microsoft_honcho_says_Vista_doesnt_need_anti-virus/)
and this next article is from november 06, so there is a chance that the problem has been fixed, but 2 weeks earlier a MS person says that vista doesn't need anti virus and then this article is posted. (http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2006/11/30/malware_still_works_on_vista/)

for the gamer or somebody who needs lots of processing power, bad idea also. it was orginally claimed that vista was going to allow 4-8GB of ram. then it became 4GB. now vista only has support for up to 2.75-3.25GB with higher support only quoted as on the horizon. also, there is only 32bit with 64 nowhere to be found.(http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2007/01/15/Industry_says_vista_64_not_ready/) and with all that aero and extra visual pazaaz weighing down the processor and taking up more ram, there isn't too much of an upgrade.

and don't forget that the new ipod killer, Zune, does NOT work with vista. great idea.
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2006/11/15/Zune_incompatible_with_Vista/

and now there is this. http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2007/01/29/no_clean_installs_with_vista_upgrade_discs/ to me. worst. idea. ever.

want me to continue?

[flyboy]

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/57466/ten_reasons_why_you_should_not_buy.html?page=2 (10 reasons ou should not buy vista)

I usually wait a year or 2 before buying anything totally new from microsoft.

I've looked at vista and to me it's all fluff.

[thecavemankevin]

and don't forget that the new ipod killer, Zune, does NOT work with vista. great idea.
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2006/11/15/Zune_incompatible_with_Vista/



tis been fixed, still not buying it, but this item is no longer an issue...except to laugh at the statement "ipod killer" :tard:

[bornl33t]

and now there is this. http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2007/01/29/no_clean_installs_with_vista_upgrade_discs/ to me. worst. idea. ever.


That's REALLY lame. Windows xp takes a freaking hour to install. Then you have to install vista over it? AND if that wasn't bad enough I got to keep by 98cd too yet because vista won't install over 98. So unless I buy the 300$ vista cd I have to keep 3 cd's together and hope that none of them ever get scratech or broken even though one of them is already a decade old.

I'm assuming that MS will eventually release a 64bit version right? Or is that the promise for their next OS ?

The more I read about this the more Vista is starting to look like Windows ME.

[Circle]

That's REALLY lame. Windows xp takes a freaking hour to install. Then you have to install vista over it? AND if that wasn't bad enough I got to keep by 98cd too yet because vista won't install over 98. So unless I buy the 300$ vista cd I have to keep 3 cd's together and hope that none of them ever get scratech or broken even though one of them is already a decade old.

I'm assuming that MS will eventually release a 64bit version right? Or is that the promise for their next OS ?

The more I read about this the more Vista is starting to look like Windows ME.

Welcome to Microsoft.
I'll have a buddy register and post of what he thinks of it.
he's more computer-savvy than myself.

[Steelrat]

That's REALLY lame. Windows xp takes a freaking hour to install. Then you have to install vista over it? AND if that wasn't bad enough I got to keep by 98cd too yet because vista won't install over 98. So unless I buy the 300$ vista cd I have to keep 3 cd's together and hope that none of them ever get scratech or broken even though one of them is already a decade old.

I'm assuming that MS will eventually release a 64bit version right? Or is that the promise for their next OS ?

The more I read about this the more Vista is starting to look like Windows ME.

Why is this lame? It's a freaking upgrade. You want to be able to do a clean install? Buy the full OS. It's not like it's deceptive advertising, you're getting what you pay for.

I'm not surprised at the MS-bashing tilt this thread is taking (not directed at you bornl33t).

[CKY_Alliance]

That's REALLY lame. Windows xp takes a freaking hour to install. Then you have to install vista over it? AND if that wasn't bad enough I got to keep by 98cd too yet because vista won't install over 98. So unless I buy the 300$ vista cd I have to keep 3 cd's together and hope that none of them ever get scratech or broken even though one of them is already a decade old.

I'm assuming that MS will eventually release a 64bit version right? Or is that the promise for their next OS ?

The more I read about this the more Vista is starting to look like Windows ME.


I thought Vista was already for 64 bit processors only?

[geekwarrior]

Why is this lame? It's a freaking upgrade. You want to be able to do a clean install? Buy the full OS. It's not like it's deceptive advertising, you're getting what you pay for.

I'm not surprised at the MS-bashing tilt this thread is taking (not directed at you bornl33t).


so whats good about it?

[Steelrat]

so whats good about it?

I'm not here to shill for MS. I just hate the ridiculous bashing that occurs whenever MS puts out a product. Just go look at the reader reviews on Vista on CNet. People are bashing it, and it hasn't even been released to consumers (businesses only).

Some people like to be cool and anti-establishment, and so they attack MS any time they can. If someone puts their negatives up, I'll address them. Vista isn't perfect, but it's not the piece of crap the OS X and Linux fanbois make it out to be.

[Hexis]

Big ol OSX fan here. Love the mac!

I don't think there is anything unreasonable about requiring a previous version of the OS to be installed to be able to install an "upgrade" version of Vista. It is afterall, an upgrade. Perhaps they could streamline the process by just requiring a serial number from each version, but that would be pretty optimistic.

[cyrus-the-virus]

This thread reminds me of a bullet train heading twards a 20 foot thick titanuim wall.

Absoultly no good will come out of it.

[Miscue]

I'm not interested in Vista at all from a user's perspective. Although... it has some cool stuff for .NET development that I'm a bit excited about.

[skriptal]

Why is this lame? It's a freaking upgrade. You want to be able to do a clean install? Buy the full OS. It's not like it's deceptive advertising, you're getting what you pay for.

I'm not surprised at the MS-bashing tilt this thread is taking (not directed at you bornl33t).

A you CAN do a clean install from an upgrade, you just need to have a previous OS on the harddrive. then you can format everything and start a new. or buy a mouse and get the OEM version for cheap.paying full retail is idiotic though.

[Miscue]

Generally a bad idea to do an upgrade over an existing version... historically. Except maybe Windows for Workgroups on top of MS-DOS.

Otherwise, it's better to install from scratch.

[skriptal]

Generally a bad idea to do an upgrade over an existing version... historically. Except maybe Windows for Workgroups on top of MS-DOS.

Otherwise, it's better to install from scratch.

Again, you CAN do a clean install from an upgrade version. you can have it format the drive then install windows. you do not have to do an upgrade.

[robnix]

http://www.windowsitpro.com/mobile/pda/Article.cfm?ArticleID=95011&News=1

[bornl33t]

I'm not interested in Vista at all from a user's perspective. Although... it has some cool stuff for .NET development that I'm a bit excited about.
what is .net? Just out of cuiosity. I never let windows undate download it so I think it's interesting that you like it so much?

[WickeDKlowN]

I ran Vista Ultimate on my box for a couple days, but it was a tad sluggish (A64 3000+ and 512MB RAM, not the best specs) so I went back to XP. Overall I was quite pleased with it, though. I'll gladly buy it when I build a new desktop in the coming months.

[robnix]

I'll gladly buy it when I build a new desktop in the coming months.

You won't have any choice.

[punkncat]

I'm not surprised at the MS-bashing tilt this thread is taking


Ever since SP2 Microsoft pretty much deserves any bashing it gets.

Notice when you get a new computer you don't get a OS disk with? Its a partition on the hard drive. So then you end up getting some evil bug that won't allow the average user to reboot the OS. Once you format, the license that is pasted to the side of your computer is no good to you.
So then you are supposed to spend more on a license for Windows than it cost just to buy another cheap computer?

Maybe I am missing something. I know just enough about computers to be dangerous to myself and my machines.....

/end hijack

[skriptal]

Ever since SP2 Microsoft pretty much deserves any bashing it gets.

Notice when you get a new computer you don't get a OS disk with? Its a partition on the hard drive. So then you end up getting some evil bug that won't allow the average user to reboot the OS. Once you format, the license that is pasted to the side of your computer is no good to you.
So then you are supposed to spend more on a license for Windows than it cost just to buy another cheap computer?

Maybe I am missing something. I know just enough about computers to be dangerous to myself and my machines.....

/end hijack

/unend hijack

This is not MS, this is the Cheap Computer retailers attempting to charge you more money by selling you a bigger HD so you can have more usable space, and B so they dont have to purchase all the CDs
/reend hijcack

Now on the topic of clean installs, This is different from what i have actually installed. On my parent's laptop What i believe was an upgrade version we were able to format the drive then install Vista, no old programs or any of the old XP crap. What i have heard but not confirmed was that your XP license become invalid after the install. Which is something i do not like.

I am not an MS fanboy or anything of the sort, I do own vista but use XP on my main computer because Vista feels bloated and slow on my computer which is a Intel core2 E6600 with 2gb ram and 7950 GT. Something that is WELL about the minimum requirements of Vista. It is my belief that MS should have done a better job optimizing their code and made it more effecent so more computers could run it. Ill end my rant now. :shooting:

[robnix]

/unend hijack

This is not MS, this is the Cheap Computer retailers attempting to charge you more money by selling you a bigger HD so you can have more usable space, and B so they dont have to purchase all the CDs
/reend hijcack


Not true. About 2001 or so, MS tried getting all OEM's to put the recovery data on a hidden hard drive partition. They offered incentives like cheaper licensing to do so. The idea was to keep
CD's out of consumer hands that could be used to install the operating system on a different computer than the one that the OS was sold with. This sucks if you're out of warranty and have a catastrophic hard drive failure. Luckily you can contact the manufacturer of your PC and have them send you install CD's.

[skriptal]

Not true. About 2001 or so, MS tried getting all OEM's to put the recovery data on a hidden hard drive partition. They offered incentives like cheaper licensing to do so. The idea was to keep
CD's out of consumer hands that could be used to install the operating system on a different computer than the one that the OS was sold with. This sucks if you're out of warranty and have a catastrophic hard drive failure. Luckily you can contact the manufacturer of your PC and have them send you install CD's.

There is a major loophole in the OS install. You can use the upgrade disc for a full install
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=5932

[robnix]

There is a major loophole in the OS install. You can use the upgrade disc for a full install
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=5932

I posted this about 5 posts up. Different website, same information.

[sbpyro]

But figure I'd link this
http://www.maximumpc.com/2007/01/10_reasons_you.html

the original complaint was

"Here’s the exact text: “The first user of the software may reassign the license to another device one time.” That means that if you purchase a copy of Vista at retail—be it the $200 Home Basic or the $400 Vista Ultimate package—you have the right to install that OS on one machine. When you retire that machine, you can install the OS on a second PC, but that’s it."

this can be found in the original article here
http://www.maximumpc.com/2006/10/microsofts_lice.html

but apparently they have changed it.

[CKY_Alliance]

So what exactly is a clean install? Installing an OS with no other OS on the computer?

What are the benefits of a clean install?


ok I read about the whole loop hole for the upgrade disc, what are the differences in the upgrade and the retail version of windows?

Don't you have to pay for the upgrade..or is the "upgrade dvd" a free trial disc thing?



Anyone wanna explain this for me please..

[rkjunior303]

I consider a clean install wiping the partition entirely and totally starting from the scratch drive. Eliminates any chance of anything getting in the way and conflicting.

[bornl33t]

So basically windows vista is designed to make you buy everything.
We're established that music and HD video are going to be very secure (until someone sticks it to Hollywood) But in addition to get full functionality of your hardware you will have to buy ready made systems from a major distributor, like HP or Dell. (how is this different from a mac?)
In the last few years PC's have suffered from too much competition. Of course this is really good for the consumer as prices have come down. But with a 400$ OS prices are sure to rise and the local PC-builders are basically the way of the buffalo, because they can't make a deal with MS to sell 30,000 PC's with Vista on it.

The whole basis for PC's is their compatibility with a verity of vendors and software, something mac's are just getting started on. If my PC doesn't have it, just add it in. But vista doesn't support this at all. How is a PC any better then a mac now, especially with a sluggish resource hungry OS?

Taking everything into consideration, my conclusion is that vista sucks. I might try and skip this one like I skipped ME

[robnix]

ok I read about the whole loop hole for the upgrade disc, what are the differences in the upgrade and the retail version of windows?


$100.00. The contents of the disc are identical except for what the installer looks for at the beginning.

[punkncat]

So basically windows vista is designed to make you buy everything.

Microsoft has been on this track since SP2.

Any new updates that come out for XP require that you be updated to SP2. What is included with this is called "genuine advantage" or some suchanother....Meaning that to get updates for your OS you have to have a registered copy of Windows.

Now lets discuss that for a moment.
We have already touched on clean install. To me clean install is the do over button. When I get some bad virus or screw up installing some new hardware, make some incorrectable (to me) change to a computer that causes fatal crash...then I know enough to format the harddrive and start over with a clean install. A brand new windows on a clean computer.

So, once you format your harddrive, you have erased the partition that your Windows reinstall matching the license was. It doesn't matter that you couldn't access that partition due to *matter discussed in previous paragraph* the CD key on the side of your computer is crap. It doesn't matter that you have a disk with the EXACT SAME OS you had before. Because you didn't pay someone to fix what got screwed up by *matter discussed in previous paragraph* you now have to pay Microsoft for a license.

So you decide, "Screw Microsoft! Bill Gates could wipe his butt with $100,000 bills and not care. I won't update."

Well before long you will find that not only can you not update your media player, explorer, etc. but soon your certificate will run out. A perfectly good, capable computer, alibeit a bit "old" has become trash.


So now, in addition to this, Microsoft has decided to make moral decisions for the people who buy thier product. IF you choose to upgrade to Vista, and eventually many will have to, then you can no longer copy unlicensed music and video with the OS you paid for. Big Brother has decided thats "BAD".....

[skriptal]

Microsoft has been on this track since SP2.
So now, in addition to this, Microsoft has decided to make moral decisions for the people who buy thier product. IF you choose to upgrade to Vista, and eventually many will have to, then you can no longer copy unlicensed music and video with the OS you paid for. Big Brother has decided thats "BAD".....

Whoa! where did you hear that?

[punkncat]

Whoa! where did you hear that?

Read something on it that I cannot find to backup my claim. All I can say is it is reffered to by l33t "Secondly with VISTA as I see it hd-dvd piracy will be dead. Which I'm ok with." , but unsure whether he can remember where this was mentioned either.

Sorry have no links to back up my claim and therefore for now has to be vicious rumor..... :cool:

[bornl33t]

Read something on it that I cannot find to backup my claim. All I can say is it is reffered to by l33t "Secondly with VISTA as I see it hd-dvd piracy will be dead. Which I'm ok with." , but unsure whether he can remember where this was mentioned either.

Sorry have no links to back up my claim and therefore for now has to be vicious rumor..... :cool:

http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/hardware/hdcp-vista.ars

don't get me wrong, I don't care that I have to actually own the DVD or the CD, I already do, but I WILL rip any CD I own to put on ym player. And if I own the computer, the DVD and the OS I better be getting 1080P or whatever I paid for. I'm one of the few that uses a computer as a HTPC (home theater pc) and this whole vista with DRM and HDCP really makes my HTPC 2000$ pile of junk. I would be smart to just buy a dvr and a dvd player with a receiver.

I don't hate Capitalism, I just hate people making decisions for me.

[wjr]

Microsoft has been on this track since SP2.

So now, in addition to this, Microsoft has decided to make moral decisions for the people who buy thier product. IF you choose to upgrade to Vista, and eventually many will have to, then you can no longer copy unlicensed music and video with the OS you paid for. Big Brother has decided thats "BAD".....

Sounds like somebody just read 1984.

[punkncat]

Sounds like somebody just read 1984.


I read 1984 BEFORE 1984...but thanks.

/no kidde

[p8ntbal4me]

I thought Vista was already for 64 bit processors only?


Yeah... I found a link to the versions you can buy and the pro/office type one with all the stuff unlocked for big shots supported 64bit.

Thats sad that it doesnt if thats the case due that the gaming community is HUGE and all the more reason to buy a platform that rides on the machine your using mostly now has PCI-E and its already pushing the 64bit envelope.

Im not getting it yet,... it sounds like a bandaid fix like WinME was. I wouldnt give that OS out as freeware. Such a horrible OS. MS made their mark with Win2k as being ME friendly but NT workable. By far their best OS IMHO. I use XP Pro and its nice,.. just not getting the warm fuzzies of Win2k though,.... I would take that over XP anyday.

[sbpyro]

http://www.tgdaily.com/2007/01/31/best_buy_geeksquad_vistaproblems/

So if you are not patient during the install vista could possible break your hard drive.
joy joy.

I have a feeling the gaming community ain't all jumping over to vista soon. At least not until direct X 10 is standard in all the latest games.

[personman]

punkncat, that claim is total BS. I've reinstalled windows on MANY computers that have the licence sticker using the key on it. I even used a burnt copy of XP to do it and it worked fine. The only thing (which is just an annoyance) is that most of the computers I've done it on have required me to call up microsoft to activate the installation, as opposed to using the genuine windows activation tool or whatever. They don't really ask any questions, they just make sure that your machine is the only one running that particular key.
Stop spreading unfounded rumors.

Back on topic, my friend got vista and he is obsessing about it and saying its the greatest thing ever... I guess I'll get it when I get my laptop for college but for now XP is fine with me. The one thing I'm looking forward to is DX10. Everything else is just fluff. Vista is microsoft's way of keeping up with OSX; they put in a bunch of random crap to make it more visually appealing even though it serves very little purpose. At least vista will be compatible with stuff :p

[punkncat]

punkncat, that claim is total BS. I've reinstalled windows on MANY computers that have the licence sticker using the key on it. I even used a burnt copy of XP to do it and it worked fine. The only thing (which is just an annoyance) is that most of the computers I've done it on have required me to call up microsoft to activate the installation, as opposed to using the genuine windows activation tool or whatever. They don't really ask any questions, they just make sure that your machine is the only one running that particular key.
Stop spreading unfounded rumors.




I see you live in Atlanta. I am south of there in McDonough. Feel free to allow me to pay your gas expense and cook you dinner to come fix them using my "sticker" key code. I would greatly appreciate your company, your time, and allowing you to prove me wrong. I don't believe you can.

[personman]

I see you live in Atlanta. I am south of there in McDonough. Feel free to allow me to pay your gas expense and cook you dinner to come fix them using my "sticker" key code. I would greatly appreciate your company, your time, and allowing you to prove me wrong. I don't believe you can.
I would, except I really dont care that much if you think I'm right or not. I'm just telling you my personal experiences.
I'm not about to drive an hour just to prove I can install windows on a computer :p

[CoolHand]

Want to know why Vista sucks?

Go read this:

Clicky Here for Suckage! (http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html)

It's a white paper by Peter Gutmann, and it's a very informative read, well worth the time.

:cheers:

[BigEvil]

Bottom line is this; that if Vista is anything that people will want then in 1-2 years after MS finishes working the major bugs out and closes all the security loopholes that it supposedly doesnt have, some 14 year old kid will figure out a crack for it.

[robnix]

Want to know why Vista sucks?

Go read this:

Clicky Here for Suckage! (http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html)

It's a white paper by Peter Gutmann, and it's a very informative read, well worth the time.

:cheers:

Just so everyone knows what Peter Gutman's qualifications are and why he's relevant:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Gutmann
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutmann_method

[calebh]

first, i gotta give props to microsoft for always pushing the technological envelope. vista will drive the next year or two of technological innovation, until the vast majority of hardware will be able to support vista. but, theres the whole thing about vista's content protection. *hint*read gutman's article.

how much of the gutman article is paranoia and how much is genuine concern, i dont know, but its still worth a look and a thought.

[robnix]

first, i gotta give props to microsoft for always pushing the technological envelope. vista will drive the next year or two of technological innovation, until the vast majority of hardware will be able to support vista. but, theres the whole thing about vista's content protection. *hint*read gutman's article.

how much of the gutman article is paranoia and how much is genuine concern, i dont know, but its still worth a look and a thought.


Microsoft isn't pushing anything. Outside of DX10 here's nothing in Vista that isn't available in other operating systems already, and even DX10 has a competitor in OpenGL. Take some time to google 'Microsoft and Innovation'.

[calebh]

Microsoft isn't pushing anything. Outside of DX10 here's nothing in Vista that isn't available in other operating systems already, and even DX10 has a competitor in OpenGL. Take some time to google 'Microsoft and Innovation'.

thats not what im talking about. the complexity of vista causes it to run sluggishly on most computers now, if at all. but it will be popular, simply because its microsoft, and that will push tech companies to market products that can run vista more efficiently. same thing happened with xp. when it was first released, it required an absurd amount of system ram for the average user for that time to run at a decent speed. 256 mb ddr, anyone? now you can get that much on a vid card for under $100. vista runs slow now, but its popularity will drive innovation until technology catches up to the point at which vista runs wihtout a hitch. then games will continue that push, at a slightly slower pace. its a not so vicious cycle. software pushes tech innovation, tech innovation allows more complex sotware, more complex software pushes tech innovation, tech... get the idea?

the thing im worried about is vista's content protection. theres a possibility that its genuineness issues will actually slow innovation or simply make it too costly.

[CoolHand]

. . . . how much of the gutman article is paranoia and how much is genuine concern, i dont know, but its still worth a look and a thought.

He is a little paranoid, but show me a security man who isn't and I'll show you a man who's bad at his job.

Besides, just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't actually after you. ;)

[robnix]

thats not what im talking about. the complexity of vista causes it to run sluggishly on most computers now, if at all. but it will be popular, simply because its microsoft, and that will push tech companies to market products that can run vista more efficiently. same thing happened with xp. when it was first released, it required an absurd amount of system ram for the average user for that time to run at a decent speed. 256 mb ddr, anyone? now you can get that much on a vid card for under $100. vista runs slow now, but its popularity will drive innovation until technology catches up to the point at which vista runs wihtout a hitch. then games will continue that push, at a slightly slower pace. its a not so vicious cycle. software pushes tech innovation, tech innovation allows more complex sotware, more complex software pushes tech innovation, tech... get the idea?

the thing im worried about is vista's content protection. theres a possibility that its genuineness issues will actually slow innovation or simply make it too costly.

New and improved hardware isn't always necessary for better software. Here's two examples:

Compiz/Beryl - Desktop effects the make Aero look pedestrian with much lower hardware requirements. Recommended requirements are a 1ghz/512MB machine with Nvidia or Intel 9xx graphics. Aero recommends 2.8ghz/1-2GB with DX9 capable graphics.

Rockbox - Alternative software for your iPod, iriver, or archos device. Apple claimed that the iPod couldn't play ogg or flac files, the rockbox developers proved them wrong. Install rockbox and you can play just about any music format under the sun.I can even play Doom on my iriver H320.

Now with Vista you have the tail wagging the dog. New software that forces the consumer to upgrade their hardware in order to take full advantage of it. Their performance meter that sets your desktop effects is a perfect example of this. It uses the lowest hardware rating as the bar for the desktop effects ignoring the other scores. The first install I did was on a computer with a 20GB 7200rpm ATA-66 drive. You'd think that this would be fine, the drive had decent transfer speed, and plenty of room left over after the install, but my drive got a low rating, which was what was used to determine the eye candy I got to see. The fact the my desktop has a 2.2 Ghz Opteron, 2GB RAM, and a GeForce 7900GT was irrelevant. My hard drive determined whether or not I got to see the transparency effects...go figure.

The only thing Vista is driving is planned obsolescence. It's no different than new milling and firing modes you'll never legally use.

[calebh]

New and improved hardware isn't always necessary for better software. Here's two examples:

Compiz/Beryl - Desktop effects the make Aero look pedestrian with much lower hardware requirements. Recommended requirements are a 1ghz/512MB machine with Nvidia or Intel 9xx graphics. Aero recommends 2.8ghz/1-2GB with DX9 capable graphics.

Rockbox - Alternative software for your iPod, iriver, or archos device. Apple claimed that the iPod couldn't play ogg or flac files, the rockbox developers proved them wrong. Install rockbox and you can play just about any music format under the sun.I can even play Doom on my iriver H320.

Now with Vista you have the tail wagging the dog. New software that forces the consumer to upgrade their hardware in order to take full advantage of it. Their performance meter that sets your desktop effects is a perfect example of this. It uses the lowest hardware rating as the bar for the desktop effects ignoring the other scores. The first install I did was on a computer with a 20GB 7200rpm ATA-66 drive. You'd think that this would be fine, the drive had decent transfer speed, and plenty of room left over after the install, but my drive got a low rating, which was what was used to determine the eye candy I got to see. The fact the my desktop has a 2.2 Ghz Opteron, 2GB RAM, and a GeForce 7900GT was irrelevant. My hard drive determined whether or not I got to see the transparency effects...go figure.

The only thing Vista is driving is planned obsolescence. It's no different than new milling and firing modes you'll never legally use.

i love the paintball metaphor lol. i may not agree with the idea of planned obsolescence (is that a technical term? lol), but it will push hardware development. out with the old, in with the new, right? (btw, i wont pay extra for firing modes. i have no intention of using them ever. i have no intention of supporting that part of our industry. but that's another topic for another time)

i see what you're saying about better software being available, but the simple fact is that vista wil be sold in huge numbers, simply because its a microsoft product, and that in turn will cause innovation, whether or not its a decent, efficient OS. it runs sluggishly on the average machine, so because a lot of new machines with vista will be sold over the next year, hardware will push forward to make it run well. its not so much that vista rocks (or sucks), but its the sheer number of vista and vista operating machines that will be sold. of course, this hasnt happened yet, so i may be completely wrong, but im guessing it will be similar to the launch of xp.

im not saying so much that vista itself is pushing tech innovation, but the number of vista and vista machines sold. which should turn out well for those of us that use more efficient software, unless vista's general content protection stuff stifles third party innovation, which is entirely possible...

[UTDragun]

Well one good thing that could come out of vista,

Lower prices on xp maybe even xp64 so when I reformat again between now and the next year I can do it again cheaper.

[slade]

rule of thumb, never be first to adopt a new version of windows...wait for a year for bugs to be worked out.
fixed.

[WickeDKlowN]

You won't have any choice.
There will always be cracks and workarounds for WGA or whatever they're calling it now. I've been doing it with XP for years, I've just got to the point where I'm sick of it and will spend the $150 or whatever the OEM version costs if it saves me the hassle.

[slade]

There will always be cracks and workarounds for WGA or whatever they're calling it now.
yeah. theres this new workaround, its called linux.

[tribalman]

There will always be cracks and workarounds for WGA or whatever they're calling it now. I've been doing it with XP for years, I've just got to the point where I'm sick of it and will spend the $150 or whatever the OEM version costs if it saves me the hassle.

actually, microsoft has said that they won't try and lock out the upgrade bug. you can use the upgrade disk to give a full install of vista without having to install xp or 2000 first. http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2007/02/07/microsoft_to_ignore_vista_upgrade_loophole/

makes one kinda think about getting vista, except drivers are still kinda sketchy. http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2007/02/07/NVIDIA_Vista_shenanigans_roll_on/

[tribalman]

/slight thread jack

as i was watching the last half hour of LOST one of those normally dumb Apple comercials came on. when ever the PC dude wanted to reply to something the apple guy said, a dude wearing a black suit and glasses kept saying "mac is.....do you want to respond? cancel or allow". i was actually rolling on the floor. my dad got it also, but not my sisters. anybody else see it? well, here's the link.
http://www.apple.com/getamac/ads/
it's the one labeled "Security"

"you are comming to a sad realization, cancel or allow? allow..." :rofl: :rofl:

/end thread jack

*edit* the Surgery one is pretty funny also.

[bornl33t]

/slight thread jack

as i was watching the last half hour of LOST one of those normally dumb Apple comercials came on. when ever the PC dude wanted to reply to something the apple guy said, a dude wearing a black suit and glasses kept saying "mac is.....do you want to respond? cancel or allow". i was actually rolling on the floor. my dad got it also, but not my sisters. anybody else see it? well, here's the link.
http://www.apple.com/getamac/ads/
it's the one labeled "Security"

"you are comming to a sad realization, cancel or allow? allow..." :rofl: :rofl:

/end thread jack

*edit* the Surgery one is pretty funny also.

yeah except so far all of them are down right false advertising or hypocritical. Wouldn't you like to buy a new Monitor with HDCP for your mac? Or that's right, YOU CAN'T CAUSE IT"S ONE BIG BOX WITH EVERYTHING IN IT.

[robnix]

yeah except so far all of them are down right false advertising or hypocritical. Wouldn't you like to buy a new Monitor with HDCP for your mac? Or that's right, YOU CAN'T CAUSE IT"S ONE BIG BOX WITH EVERYTHING IN IT.

Only the imac's are. Powermac's and macmini's can use any external monitor. The real problem lies in making sure that you're video card is HDCP compliant.

[WickeDKlowN]

yeah. theres this new workaround, its called linux.
Linux has come a long way since I first tried Mandrake years ago, and SuSE 10.1 is really quite nice, but I just can't bring myself to make the switch.


actually, microsoft has said that they won't try and lock out the upgrade bug. you can use the upgrade disk to give a full install of vista without having to install xp or 2000 first. http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2007/02/07/microsoft_to_ignore_vista_upgrade_loophole/

makes one kinda think about getting vista, except drivers are still kinda sketchy. http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2007/02/07/NVIDIA_Vista_shenanigans_roll_on/
You've always been able to do a clean install from an Upgrade disc as long as you had an older Windows disc to prove you were upgrading.

[RRfireblade]

Hmm , funny to see this. I've been messing with Vista on a new machine for a little bit now and trying to make up my mind on it.

Overall it functions quite well , no major bugs or issues that I've experienced so far. Far better than all other MS new releases I've delt with so for. Might be a little TOO integrated but the newbs will like that a bunch.

I am however , getting tired of each new OS getting BIGGER and far more DEMANDING on your system. It's like hardware finally gets to where it can hang nicely with an OS and then they drop a safe on it's head and you have to start all over.

A clean install takes more HD space than I've had on some complete systems in the past and it'll eat like half a gig of ram running basic functions and the Aero desktop.

That and hardly anything runs on it yet , including a few MS products I've tried so far.

IDK , glad I have a number of other PCs to work with.

[slade]

Linux has come a long way since I first tried Mandrake years ago, and SuSE 10.1 is really quite nice, but I just can't bring myself to make the switch.
any reason in specific? you could always make the half switch. i still have a windows partition for when i absolutely need it. a few propriety programs still have no linux counterpart, and using WINE (windows compatibility layer for linux) is hit or miss.

[WickeDKlowN]

any reason in specific? you could always make the half switch. i still have a windows partition for when i absolutely need it. a few propriety programs still have no linux counterpart, and using WINE (windows compatibility layer for linux) is hit or miss.
There's no one reason in particular, it's more of a collection of small things that annoy me. Plus I can't find a torrent client worth a damn.

[slade]

There's no one reason in particular, it's more of a collection of small things that annoy me. Plus I can't find a torrent client worth a damn.
the opera web browser works fine for me, but i rarely use torrents. theres also azureus, but i take it you've already tried that.

[Smoothice]

I've been reading everybodies posts in this thread and it sounds like this:

Older machines may have trouble running vista because of hardware.

I get that.

Here is my question.

I am being forced to get a new laptop for work.

It will be a Dell and therefore will come with Vista.

Should I be worried about slow performance or will it work well as part of a new system?

[slade]

well, dell should start selling computers preloaded with linux soon...

but it should work adequately, i'm sure you can turn off all the eye candy at least.

[robnix]

I've been reading everybodies posts in this thread and it sounds like this:

Older machines may have trouble running vista because of hardware.

I get that.

Here is my question.

I am being forced to get a new laptop for work.

It will be a Dell and therefore will come with Vista.

Should I be worried about slow performance or will it work well as part of a new system?

Without knowing the specs of the laptop, there's no way to comment on the performance. You can still buy laptops with XP from Dell, or if your company is providing it, I'd be pretty surprised if they actually gave it to you with Vista on it. I know that none of the people that I've talked to have any plans to deploy Vista any time soon.

[RRfireblade]

It's not really a performance issue (for me) , it's mostly compatibilty with existing software.

Hardware it handles ok if said hardware meets the min requirements for Vista . . . which are a tad high.

[Lomarandil]

Right.. a lot of software won't work with it..

I was wanting to get XP... but the deal I got on a new Vista was very good... so I ended up with that...

so far, after two months of heavy use, maybe froze four times, one major crash (I fixed it.. but put tech support in a fizzle)... and half a dozen software issues... nothing too major though...

I'm recommending to all my friends, get XP if you still can, but Vista's alright, assuming you don't need a lot of software..

Lo

[thecavemankevin]

a lawyer at my firm brought in his new Dell laptop a couple days ago that he just bought and of course it came with vista. I played with it for about 15-20 minutes and my first impression is you can keep it. I'll stick with XP for now. Dude had 2 gigs of ram in that monster of a laptop and at boot/idle it was sucking down between 25-30% of available memory. And no he had not loaded anything onto it yet (just unboxed it the night before)

[ntn4502]

I just loaded vista up, it takes more ram than your mother

[Smoothice]

Without knowing the specs of the laptop, there's no way to comment on the performance. You can still buy laptops with XP from Dell, or if your company is providing it, I'd be pretty surprised if they actually gave it to you with Vista on it. I know that none of the people that I've talked to have any plans to deploy Vista any time soon.

Not all of Dells models come with the option of xp. The 1st one I selected only offered Vista. After I read the details of all the models and checked out some of the higher priced models I found that I could choose between xp and vista.

I ended up getting xp. The system has the minimum requirements for vista in case I decide to upgrade later.

[bornl33t]

Not all of Dells models come with the option of xp. The 1st one I selected only offered Vista. After I read the details of all the models and checked out some of the higher priced models I found that I could choose between xp and vista.

I ended up getting xp. The system has the minimum requirements for vista in case I decide to upgrade later.

Actually that's the way to go. MS wants vista on as many machines as possible. I can elaborate on this in a minute. So if you buy a computer right now with XP you can most likly get a free upgrade to vista. So you have XP but inthe future when Ms stops support for XP you want easily switch.

Back to my earlier comment. This kinda pissed me off. I've had a really bad week of extremly poor customer service so this was just icing on the cake. My wife who is still in collage had her teacher mail her some information. This teacher mailed it in a format I'd never seen before (.docx) Apearantly it's a new format created just for the new office 2007 (a 300$ suite mind you). This professor does not want to send it to her in a format that office 2003 an open. After some correspondance it turns out that the entire collage staff was provided with 2007 for personal use through MS to "get the ball rolling". So we have to either download the word2007 viewer or buy office 2007. That's kind of a cheap shot if you ask me.
Sure it's partially to blame on the proffesors incompliance with what I consider common curtesy but I'm already feeling the presure to upgrade to vista/office 2007. I wonder if googles office suit will be able to open and edit MS word 07 files?

I would like to point out that this is how I'm seeing it right now. I've only done a little research on the matter so if anyone can sees a problem in my logic that will help me out PLEASE point me in the right direction.... you'll get a cookie!

[Hexis]

I thought there was a plug-in or whatever to open/save .docx files in earlier version of Office (for Windows). The Mac Office version is going to take a while.

edit: Yeah found it:
Microsoft Office Compatibility Pack for Word, Excel, and PowerPoint 2007 File Formats (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=941b3470-3ae9-4aee-8f43-c6bb74cd1466&DisplayLang=en)

My googlefu is powerful (or something).

[Glickman]

Actually that's the way to go. MS wants vista on as many machines as possible. I can elaborate on this in a minute. So if you buy a computer right now with XP you can most likly get a free upgrade to vista. So you have XP but inthe future when Ms stops support for XP you want easily switch.

Back to my earlier comment. This kinda pissed me off. I've had a really bad week of extremly poor customer service so this was just icing on the cake. My wife who is still in collage had her teacher mail her some information. This teacher mailed it in a format I'd never seen before (.docx) Apearantly it's a new format created just for the new office 2007 (a 300$ suite mind you). This professor does not want to send it to her in a format that office 2003 an open. After some correspondance it turns out that the entire collage staff was provided with 2007 for personal use through MS to "get the ball rolling". So we have to either download the word2007 viewer or buy office 2007. That's kind of a cheap shot if you ask me.
Sure it's partially to blame on the proffesors incompliance with what I consider common curtesy but I'm already feeling the presure to upgrade to vista/office 2007. I wonder if googles office suit will be able to open and edit MS word 07 files?

I would like to point out that this is how I'm seeing it right now. I've only done a little research on the matter so if anyone can sees a problem in my logic that will help me out PLEASE point me in the right direction.... you'll get a cookie!

yes, docx is the office 2007 version. the teacher SHOULD have checked off the "2003 compatable" option, but of course thats too much to ask teachers.

this link will show you how to open docx in word viewer (http://support.microsoft.com/kb/925180)

if you still need to open it, and cant find any other way, i can try to you up. if you have AIM throw me a IM, mine is ComputersRuinMe.

fortunately at my college, 90% of the teachers are quite computer literate (RIT), especially the ones in my major (Networking Security)


btw, vista is really not all that bad on RAM as you think. make sure you disable the aero effects, and some of the less necessary features, and it runs fine on my 1.7gHz celeron w/ 1gig of crappy ram. In fact, i multitask on it fine too (ie. running a vent server for 8, photoshop CS2, browse the intrawebs without much lag) the problem is that Vista's options mostly come on be default, with a little tweaking, you shouldnt find a problem if you have 1 gig of ram

[thecavemankevin]

btw, vista is really not all that bad on RAM as you think. make sure you disable the aero effects, and some of the less necessary features, and it runs fine on my 1.7gHz celeron w/ 1gig of crappy ram. In fact, i multitask on it fine too (ie. running a vent server for 8, photoshop CS2, browse the intrawebs without much lag) the problem is that Vista's options mostly come on be default, with a little tweaking, you shouldnt find a problem if you have 1 gig of ram

of course disabling these pretty effects will free up a bunch of ram, but how about that personal security annoyance that mac makes fun of in the commercials. I know it has its benefits, and can be disabled but what a pain. I wanted to check out the hardware on the laptop, and it asked me to authorize access. So fine, i authorized and you'd think that it would either then be authorized for that session or at the very least for a time period. but nope, i right click on my computer, access hardware list and it asks every time. Now there may be a way to disable some of that or adjust the settings but i felt like i was in the mac commercial.


you think that microsoft would be able to set up vista to detect when a local mouse click has taken place and auto allow simple events like this instead of asking permission.

meh, keep it.

[slade]

a friend of mine had XP on his computer.

he then legally installed linux.
he then pirated and installed vista.

...he chose to use linux.