My Pneumatic Emag idea!!! Need Inquiries

[RavishingEddie]

Ok so last night I had a dream that my Emag was pneumatic. So after all day of research and tons of reading I think this might be ground breaking. Why? Because it might solve the 18volt to 9 volts conversion problem for Emags and upgrade to a E/P function instead of a E/M function with the turn of the emag switch. Here is my idea. I would use a set up similar to any Pneumag except that when the Emag is on E mode the Hall sensor would trip the push noid to push the MSV and cause the MPA to trip the sear.
In mechanical mode or should I say P mode :D I would have the sear pin turned around and screwed onto the trigger itself with a tap I might have someone else do. I would make it short enough to not hit the MSV on Emode but make full contact when on P mode.
Hopefully this will solve the long 9 volt emag problem while still keeping the stock board with Xmod that I love so much. All I need right now is a good push noid for me to start it.
As many of you also know there is very little force required to push the MSV compared to the actual sear like Dmags. Because of this I am assuming I would not need a Capacitor since very little force would be needed.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/RavishingEddie/EmagPrototype.gif

[TippmannGuy]

IT's a lot stuff to try and fit in the frame of the e-mag. I know others have looked at doing this to there e-mag but ultmiately decide there isn't enough room to make it work.
I know someone would have done it if there was mini-morlock boards available. But Without the extra small board to make more room the project was shelved.

Here's a link to a site with a TON of info that should help. www.bigevilonline.com

As far as my input I wouldn't use the MSV as a switch I'd keep the hall sensor. Lose the MPA-3 for a Pnemu push/pull ram to replace the electronic noid that needs all the juice 18v can provide. Keeping it as close to unmodified as possible. Putting the 9 v into the front batt compartment is fine. You'd also need to add a hump noid which could be in the front batt housing as well.The hybrid mode and mech mode would no longer work though. It'd strictly be an electro pnemu

Good Luck and keep us posted :cheers:

[RavishingEddie]

Well I was not looking to remove the Hall sensor. It would be used to send the signal to the board which would in turn send the voltage to the noid. The noid would then push the MSV which would activate the Pneumatics. I also thought it sounded like too much things going but activating the noid should be instant. The activation of the noid should also be instant, but I am assuming it would of built up a delay in m/s by now. My only question then is how instantaneous is a pneumatic system and what is the ceiling ROF it can hit assuming finger speed was not a factor.

[y0da900]

Doesn't the E-mag use a pull type solenoid? You would need to either use a different solenoid, or make some sort of lever or bracket for it to push on the valve.

[wjr]

I'm trying to figure this out. The solenoid pushes the msv-2? That sounds like it might be overly complicated.

Now here's what I think would be awesome. Normal emag in E-mode, Pneumag in Mech mode. :shooting:

[RavishingEddie]

I'm trying to figure this out. The solenoid pushes the msv-2? That sounds like it might be overly complicated.

Now here's what I think would be awesome. Normal emag in E-mode, Pneumag in Mech mode. :shooting:

Yes that is the same thing that I thought at first, but there is no way for me to install a Pneumatic system with the original Emag internals. Yet I also don't want to get rid of the original board. Xmod rocks. So my only option is to replace the Emag sear and solenoid and use that available space for the set up.

[FinchMan]

a while back I though of connecting the output of a 3-way solenoid to the exhaust of the msv2. Or if the msv-2 doesn't have a tapped exhaust port, hook the output of the msv-2 to the exhaust port on a 3-way solenoid.

Assume the 3-way is connected to the exhaust of the msv-2.
In mech mode, the trigger activates the msv-2, and upon return the gas flows through the exhaust back through the 3-way output to the 3-way exhaust.

In E-mode, the trigger activates the HES and is stopped by a safety-like mechanism before it activates the msv-2. The solenoid sends gas through the msv-2's exhaust to the msv-2's output and to the mpa-3. When the solenoid vents the gas vents through the msv-2 to the solenoid vent (a QEV should be used on the mpa3).


A little safety-like mechanism limits rearward travel when in E-mode, and is just pushed left/right for mech mode. Maybe a really intricate mechanism can be designed to limit the forward travel in mech mode and the back travel in E-mode.

[RavishingEddie]

Hey Finchman I really like your idea. I understand that you are bypassing the Input of the MSV and using the Exhaust for the input and Exhaust instead. When the MSV exhausts it will exhaust to the Input of the Noid which will exhaust through the noids exhaust. I get it but my question is:

Will the noid provide constant air pressure to the MSV like the reg does in a standard Pneumag?
Does it need that?
Will using the same line for input and exhaust cause a problem in recharge or discharge?

As far as the trigger is concerned you don't need to do anything because E mode does not let the trigger go all the way back and it is even adjustable. My plan is to turn the sear pin around and attaching it to the tunablade trigger and adjusting it in a way that makes it too short to trigger the MSV on E mode but just the right size to trigger the MSV on Mech mode.

Here is the picture of what I think your set up looks like. Please let me know if I am wrong.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/RavishingEddie/Airnoidprototypeidea.gif

[FinchMan]

Hey Finchman I really like your idea. I understand that you are bypassing the Input of the MSV and using the Exhaust for the input and Exhaust instead. When the MSV exhausts it will exhaust to the Input of the Noid which will exhaust through the noids exhaust. I get it but my question is:

Will the noid provide constant air pressure to the MSV like the reg does in a standard Pneumag?
Does it need that?
Will using the same line for input and exhaust cause a problem in recharge or discharge?

As far as the trigger is concerned you don't need to do anything because E mode does not let the trigger go all the way back and it is even adjustable. My plan is to turn the sear pin around and attaching it to the tunablade trigger and adjusting it in a way that makes it too short to trigger the MSV on E mode but just the right size to trigger the MSV on Mech mode.

Here is the picture of what I think your set up looks like. Please let me know if I am wrong.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/RavishingEddie/Airnoidprototypeidea.gif

it would look like this:
http://www.uweb.ucsb.edu/~dfinch/images/EPmag.JPG

When in mech mode, the output of the noid is an exhaust path (seems like you get that).

I see here: http://www.fabco-air.com/pdf/Sec_13.pdf(page5) that the msv-2's exhaust port is not tapped, so instead you'll need to feed the msv-2's output into the exhaust port on the noid... like the 2nd setup I mentioned earlier.

[Pneumagger]

#1) The msv exhaust port isn't tapped -and- it exhausts from the top, side, & stem. It just won't work. Find a new 3 way.

#2) Technically, there is no such thing as a "push solenoid". That would imply your using an electromagnet to repel. :nono:

#3) over enginneered? ... not at all :rolleyes:

/tippmanngut's response was very feasable - and when I ever get around to it someday... that I what I'm doing for Atach.

[y0da900]

#2) Technically, there is no such thing as a "push solenoid". That would imply your using an electromagnet to repel. :nono:



They can push just fine if you have a magnetic core instead of just a ferromagnetic one. Point taken though, so let me rephrase. Doesn't the E-Mag use a solenoid that, when energized, the rod it is attached to moves in a fashion that results in the end of said rod being in a position closer to the solenoid mounting point than in it's initial un-energized state. In effect, pulling the rod towards the fixed mounting point used for reference.

[BigEvil]

Here's my plan...

http://www.bigevilonline.com/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/normal_Emag%20layout.jpg

Im going to gut the electronics from the emag frame and replace them with a new board, humphries 3 or 4 way noid and dual acting ram.

I have the noid and ram spec'd out... and of course as i have been for the last 2 years.. and waiting on a suitable board to use.

The benafits will be:
-9v operation (But I will just keep the 18v battery and probably never again have to recharge it ever lol j/k- but the stock battery will go on for what seems like forever)

-faster cycling speeds

-no magnetic interference from the noid effecting the HES

-POSSIBLY lower operartion pressure. The on/off pin will no longer be needed to 'reset' the sear. The ram will both pull and push, so theoretically the on/off pin can move with less input pressure. (Thus, allowing the gun to go deeper into the tank.

-This set up should work in Hybrid mode, but I doubt mech mode. Ever try to move the back block on an autococker when its pressurized? Same thing here.

-Any new board will have the added benafit of modern firing modes and adjustments, ect.. ect.

Ive been sitting with my thumb up my rear-end on this one for like 2 years waiting for TAG or KM2 or SOMEONE to make a new universal controller boars ala the minimorlock. Looks like APE is going to be the winner in that race with the new Rampage Uniboard. I will just keep waiting to see...

Some people say to just use a T-board for my DIY applications.. I have never been a big fan of them, although Scenario Dreams is a much better company than TAG has been... BUT once you use a predator-coded board you never go back.

[y0da900]

Why a dual acting ram? Fewer hoses to deal with in a single acting, and lower air consumption.

[BigEvil]

Why a dual acting ram? Fewer hoses to deal with in a single acting, and lower air consumption.


-POSSIBLY lower operartion pressure. The on/off pin will no longer be needed to 'reset' the sear. The ram will both pull and push, so theoretically the on/off pin can move with less input pressure. (Thus, allowing the gun to go deeper into the tank.


:cheers:

[y0da900]

-POSSIBLY lower operartion pressure. The on/off pin will no longer be needed to 'reset' the sear. The ram will both pull and push, so theoretically the on/off pin can move with less input pressure. (Thus, allowing the gun to go deeper into the tank.

I got that part, but most single acting rams have an internal spring that returns it for you, so it would still be able to return indepently of any input from the on-off pin.

[latches109]

http://www.jayloo.com/videos/show_vid/2320.html

I did it two years ago. no a double acting ram has less air consumption b/c the on/off returns it for you. Also, good luck finding a small single acting ram with a return spring force greater than 3lbs, and note the pressure required to push against such a spring exceeds all noids of acceptable size.

I'd be curious to see what happens using the ram in a double acting manor.

[y0da900]

I did it two years ago. no a double acting ram has less air consumption b/c the on/off returns it for you. Also, good luck finding a small single acting ram with a return spring force greater than 3lbs, and note the pressure required to push against such a spring exceeds all noids of acceptable size.

I'd be curious to see what happens using the ram in a double acting manor.


If part of the point of using a ram is that the on/off is not used to do the return portion so that you can hopefully lower overall working pressure, then yes, a single acting would use less air. IF you didn't use the return air port and relied on the on/off, then yes, it would use less air.

What does it not exceeding 3 pounds have to do with absolutely anything? And there are many solenoid choices out there that would be more than happy pushing through the kinds of pressure required for a single acting spring return. And incredibly tiny to boot.

http://www.airsoldier.com:8080/cgi-bin/mivavm?Merchant2/merchant.mvc+Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AOS&Product_Code=SMC-SY113A-SG-PM3&Category_Code=SOLENOIDS
good for 100 PSI

http://www.airsoldier.com:8080/cgi-bin/mivavm?Merchant2/merchant.mvc+Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AOS&Product_Code=SMC-S070C-SDG-32&Category_Code=SOLENOIDS
good for around 70 PSI.

An MPA-3 has a force factor of .1, so at 75 PSI, it would be exerting 7.5 pounds, a 7/16" bore ram has a force factor of .15, that same 7.5 pounds could be achieved with 50 psi, a 5/16 bore spring return would push ~7 pounds at 100 psi, which the first solenoid can handle. Up to a 5/8" bore should be able to fit fine inside a grip frame (.69" O.D.), have plenty of force to actuate the sear and on/off, and be returned by a spring taking the load off of the on/off as a return.

[BigEvil]

Hey Yoda, actually i ditched that first noid.. it would leak when I cranked up the psi to try to trip a RT on/off.

A couple of thoughts on the air-return;

-You can better control it with an air return (Via dwell) than you can with a spring return
and
-the point is to try to get the on/off to move as freely and easily as possible.

With this kinda of thinking though.. timing becomes a factor in the cycle.

[y0da900]

Did you have to crank the pressure up past 100 PSI, or was it leaking below what it was rated at?

Now I guess what is an extremely important question for you is this: Are you planning on using the ram to pull the sear like in an E-mag, or are you mounting it differently as to push it?

If it is pulling, then I definitely agree that double acting is the best method. If it is being used in a push fashion however, I don't think it would be of any concern at all. The air would be going to the return port the entire time it is in a resting/ready to fire position, the dwell will only be important on the firing stroke, which either pushing against air to evacuate that side of the cylinder or pushing against a spring, there shouldn't be any difficulty with either of those situations. And a spring should be fast enough that the on/off wouldn't have to kick start it, especially with a good QEV on the ram.

[Pneumagger]

if you use a double acting ram you'll chew your bolt and sear to bits.

Thnk about it:
When the mag fires, the sear is "held down" by the bolt traversing across the length of the top of the sear ctach. The sear cannot physically return until the bolt has reset.

If you add a double acting ram it will grind the sear against the bolt stroke as it tried to return it causeing bolt wear, sear wear, incresed bolt friction (lower BPS), and possibly nonfunctionality. The only way to this would be to perfectly measure your automags bolt dwell and hope your acts rams acts as quickly asyour board tells it too. In which case your at the point where the on/off returns it. Well just using a ULT and the 1 pound ram spring (IIRC) should be plenty of return for a sear.

Single acting pull ram with 4-40 threaded pull arm
Thread it's body into the MSS Solenoid holder.
Remove the Emag board and toss in an ION virtue.
Use a small MAC 4 way Valve and plug one output.
Use a non-ULE Emag rail - drill air passeages in it
thread the LPR into the underside of the rail inside the EMag battery Pack.
Put the battery beloe thw LPR.
Dance.

[latches109]

[QUOTE=Pneumagger]if you use a double acting ram you'll chew your bolt and sear to bits.

Thnk about it:
When the mag fires, the sear is "held down" by the bolt traversing across the length of the top of the sear ctach. The sear cannot physically return until the bolt has reset.

If you add a double acting ram it will grind the sear against the bolt stroke as it tried to return it causeing bolt wear, sear wear, incresed bolt friction (lower BPS), and possibly nonfunctionality. The only way to this would be to perfectly measure your automags bolt dwell and hope your acts rams acts as quickly asyour board tells it too. In which case your at the point where the on/off returns it. Well just using a ULT and the 1 pound ram spring (IIRC) should be plenty of return for a sear.

QUOTE]

you gave it a way.

[Pneumagger]

if you use a double acting ram you'll chew your bolt and sear to bits.

Thnk about it:
When the mag fires, the sear is "held down" by the bolt traversing across the length of the top of the sear ctach. The sear cannot physically return until the bolt has reset.

If you add a double acting ram it will grind the sear against the bolt stroke as it tried to return it causeing bolt wear, sear wear, incresed bolt friction (lower BPS), and possibly nonfunctionality. The only way to this would be to perfectly measure your automags bolt dwell and hope your acts rams acts as quickly asyour board tells it too. In which case your at the point where the on/off returns it. Well just using a ULT and the 1 pound ram spring (IIRC) should be plenty of return for a sear.



you gave it a way.
gave what away?

[BigEvil]

Its all about the T I M I N G. In essence, the on/off is the same thing. I want to do electro-pneumatically what it does now mechanically.

The worst that will happen if it is set up horribly wrong is bolt stick. Same thing happens on my e-frame if I make the mpa3 cycle faster then the sear leg is returning.

[Pneumagger]

Its all about the T I M I N G. In essence, the on/off is the same thing. I want to do electro-pneumatically what it does now mechanically.

The worst that will happen if it is set up horribly wrong is bolt stick. Same thing happens on my e-frame if I make the mpa3 cycle faster then the sear leg is returning.
With perfect timing, it will work just fine. I would personally just use a spring return ram because:
a)The emag on/off is perfectly capable of resetting at cycle rates well over 30bps (way faster than your gonna get the gen to gao anyways
b) it's a more compact setup with less hoses
c) less risky

Although if you used say a ULT on/off and double acting ram, making sure the bolt was always back before the sear reset - I'd imagine you could still hit mid 20's easily.

[wjr]

I realize that the whole point of BigEvils project is to make it as efficient as possible, but it seems like the easiest and most reliable way to do it would be to get a single acting ram, and then remove the spring and use the movement of the sear to return it. I can't really forsee anything going wrong that way... Am I right? This isn't as much of a suggestion as it is a question...

[RavishingEddie]

Hey I like your guys idea but how much more will all this add in weight to the Emag? What is the overall goal? The major issues is not rof or sucky board. To me the real issue is:

1. Weight reduction

2. Able to use Pnematic option on M mode and Electro on E mode.

All I would like to know is if there is a possibility that 3 way air noid could exist that would operate when a signal is sent but would also have a push button on the side to manually activate it when pressed in like a MSV. I don't think they sell one like that but since I already finished building my mag, I think it would be fun to reconstruct a custom air noid as a drop in mod just for emags. Even if I am unsuccessful I am sure I will learn alot and probably have other ideas. :)

[Pneumagger]

Hey I like your guys idea but how much more will all this add in weight to the Emag? What is the overall goal? The major issues is not rof or sucky board. To me the real issue is:

1. Weight reduction

2. Able to use Pnematic option on M mode and Electro on E mode.

All I would like to know is if there is a possibility that 3 way air noid could exist that would operate when a signal is sent but would also have a push button on the side to manually activate it when pressed in like a MSV. I don't think they sell one like that but since I already finished building my mag, I think it would be fun to reconstruct a custom air noid as a drop in mod just for emags. Even if I am unsuccessful I am sure I will learn alot and probably have other ideas. :)

as far as weight I would say:
clippard ram = MSS Solenoid
Air Solenoid = emag board
9v + LPR + board = 18v batery

so all in all your just modifying it for the hell of it. Not any real advantage in weight.

[RavishingEddie]

as far as weight I would say:
clippard ram = MSS Solenoid
Air Solenoid = emag board
9v + LPR + board = 18v batery

so all in all your just modifying it for the hell of it. Not any real advantage in weight.

Hey pneumagger I just have one final question. I was looking at the internals of my Emag and I saw that If I took off the Emag sear and solenoid I would have room to fit an MSV and MPA on the top portion and a air noid where the MSS would be. Anyway would I be able to connect the MSV to the MPA and make another tap on the MPA to run a seperate connection to the air noid.

If this would work I would not even need to replace the board. I would however need some kind of triangular or T splitter to split the air coming from the LPR to go to both the MSV and Air noid.

[latches109]

gave what away?

I was curious to see if he'd could get the timing correct.


Eddie, an msv is a mechanical 3way. the noid is an electronic 3way. Using both is redundant. Before you start I recommend drawing up a circuit diagram. Check voltage requirements before buying parts.

[y0da900]

I was curious to see if he'd could get the timing correct.


Eddie, an msv is a mechanical 3way. the noid is an electronic 3way. Using both is redundant. Before you start I recommend drawing up a circuit diagram. Check voltage requirements before buying parts.

It isn't redundant if he is hoping to be able to maintain the option to use it either with or without electronics, which I believe was the point. Be able to switch it to mech mode for a pneumag, and electro mode for an electro-pneumag.

I think that the hardest part of doing this would not be to get everything crammed in, but to make a way to switch between electro and pneu mode with the switch it has. It would need to either drop the switches out depending on which mode it was set for, or somewhow toggle which one was being activated by the trigger pull. Then again, I'm not entirely sure how the switch in an E-mag toggles between modes, so that may be mostly irrelevant.

[RavishingEddie]

It isn't redundant if he is hoping to be able to maintain the option to use it either with or without electronics, which I believe was the point. Be able to switch it to mech mode for a pneumag, and electro mode for an electro-pneumag.

I think that the hardest part of doing this would not be to get everything crammed in, but to make a way to switch between electro and pneu mode with the switch it has. It would need to either drop the switches out depending on which mode it was set for, or somewhow toggle which one was being activated by the trigger pull. Then again, I'm not entirely sure how the switch in an E-mag toggles between modes, so that may be mostly irrelevant.

Thanks Yoda, that is exactly what I am trying to accomplish along with losing weight and keeping it as close to original as possible. I do not want to lose the stock board. If I can accomplish this then it will be worth it. The Emag switch does nothing to the electronics all it does is shorten the trigger pull so that in E mode it will not press the sear pin. When switched to mechanical mode the trigger is allowed to go all the way back and actuate the sear. That is why when the emag is on and set to mechanical mode it will go on hybrid mode.

Anyway I was looking long and hard at my emag yesterday and I might have to cram the MSV and MPA together, but the air noid would have more than enough room where the stock emag solenoid would be. All I want to know before I start fantasizing again is if tapping the MPA for a seperate connection to an air noid would work? Here is my new idea.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/RavishingEddie/Emagairmod.gif

[Pneumagger]

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/RavishingEddie/Emagairmod.gif
That pic is sooo not to scale it's for shame.

[RavishingEddie]

I am sorry. :(

[Pneumagger]

I am sorry. :(
Not trying to offend at all,

But if you do an actual size overlay... you'll realize the need for a much smaller board or differnt components.

[RavishingEddie]

Not trying to offend at all,

But if you do an actual size overlay... you'll realize the need for a much smaller board or differnt components.

Ok it sucks I admit, but could the concept work? It not then I give up.












for now.

[latches109]

Ok it sucks I admit, but could the concept work? It not then I give up.
for now.

don't give up. It'd work, fit a microswitch where the hall sensor is. Solder two leads to the switch(center&edge) which is soldered to the pin two 2 & 3 leads from the hall sensor wires you just sacrificed. Solder the power leads from the noid to the emag board, make sure the noid is rated for the voltage output. Drill a small hole in the face of the hall sensor chamber and attach a small metal pin that would stick to the magnet, go through the hole, and activate the microswitch. Rotate the msv 90* so the back of the trigger(the top part) trips it, this way you can still use the emag selector switch to toggle between the two. or bend a top portion of the msv lever 90* towards the trigger. not sure if that msv would fit. it's late, nite.