Paintball and Economic Terrorism

[Automagsam]

Paintball And “Economic Terrorism”
Lecture By Samuel Langford February 23, 2007

When the paintball industry started the companies within it sought to make leaps and bounds within the paintball community. Weapons such as the Budd Orr sniper, and the 68 Automag came out of companies driven by people of integrity and wisdom, people who using science wanted to push the boundaries of the new found sport in any way possible. Within the last several years of paintball and more depending who you talk to, the industry has hindered this scientific process by implementing “economic terrorism”.

As stated above “economic terrorism” is the root to many of the paintball industries problems. So what exactly is “economic terrorism”? Let me link this with another issue that is going on in a different subject. Back on December 12th 1980 an act was passed called the Bayh-Dole Act. Many people to this day do not know what I speak of when the Bayh-Dole Act is brought up (though some who are up in age rattle their minds as they draw out the memories). The act made it so any research and inventions that was discovered by Universities or private businesses could be patented. Rather than progress the cause of research and help find a cure we are now slowing the process by cashing in on the situation, and making it hard for other companies, or private researched to touch or research the patented invention/discovery, for now crazy sums have to be paid for royalties, thus hindering the research and development process. As you may already notice, there are many similarities between this issue and the recent stage of the paintball industry. This is exactly what I mean when I use the term “economic terrorism”.

It must be understood as you read this, in no way am I attacking the quality of any company or the Industry itself. I am just stating some data as well as observations, in order for everyone to draw conclusions about how the industry is being run, and what should be done. This is not an open assault on any company or its products.

The first piece of fact we should examine is paintball products being left without anyone owning a patent. In the late 80’s early 90’s a man named Tom Kaye, who is the owner of Airgun Designs, helped develop what is known as nitro tanks. At the time Tom Kaye had team Nitro which was the first paintball team to use nitrogen. Tom Kaye let his unique and intelligent design go unpatented. Though to an economist that sounds like economic suicide, to a scientist or engineer it sounds almost heroic. It must be understood that by leaving this unpatented, what Tom Kaye did was open the possibilities for developing the product in the future. It is up to you when you see air tanks out on the field, whether or not he made the right decision. I must point out however no matter what the debate is, he did this to further the field of science in paintball. It must also be noted (thought I won’t go into it) Tom Kaye’s massive achievements with the automags, as well as other paintball products with AGD. To show you the issue the “economic terrorism is causing the paintball Industry, here is a quote that me and fellow Automags.org users got to see when Tom Kaye answered a question I posted about whether or not there are new product line ups for AGD:

“Yes I do still own AGD, Zupe owns the inventory and is selling things. It is certainly not clear even if we did make something that people would buy it. Look at the slug body threads where the screams for product are answered but the product remains unsold.
There is a ton going on in the industry right now with the whole NPS/PMI consolidation and yet another new round of lawsuits. My take on that is that its not worth any companies time to develop new products, its better to go sue someone for the money the old products are generating.
I am sitting back until I see ABSOULUTELY CLEARLY that there is a true demand for a product that is either unpatentable or I already have a patent on. That is a pretty small window to shoot for and unlikely to happen soon. The forum is unreliable for marketing purposes, a few people can make a big noise.
AGD”
It must be noted that one of the leading men of paintball is speaking of waiting till the right time, and speaking about lawsuits and patents. In a nutshell I got my answer when I asked if any new products were in the works. The actions within the industry is causing companies such as AGD to not be able to function as they had when they had been pushing the barriers. Is it right that a company not be able to invent, or innovate?

Economic terrorism 911 is being screamed as people gather together to witness Smart Parts actions within the industry. For years upon years no one had stepped up to file a major lawsuit within paintball. Everyone has been acceptant to one another’s developments. Tippman left its Co2 pin for the valve un patented why, to help the future of paintball, and this wasn’t a new idea, helping the cause. No longer is the cause being supported. The main company that has done mounds of work to put an end to science and earn some dough is Smart Parts. Agree with me or not Smart Parts filed the first major lawsuit in the paintball industry. Smart Parts has sued and caused such companies as AKA and Indian Creek to take some of their electronic markers off the market. Why is this happening, well to put it simply, because Smart Parts has been trying to patent the electronic paintball gun itself, and suing all other companies in its way, IE why AGD removed the X-Mag from its market. The navy developed electronic paintball guns in the 70’s but Smart Parts has not sued them yet…Whether or not you like Smart Parts is not the issue at hand. The issue at hand is the obstruction of the innovation of paintball companies. It is sad when we have to read quotes such as the one I showed you, by Tom Kaye. Few people step back and speak out against the issue or point out the facts, but I leave you with some facts, but much more that I left out of this lecture. Go research the issue at hand and it should help you reach your conclusion. What is the state of the Industry?
Thank you -Samuel Langford

[CKY_Alliance]

ummm, ok..wow..umm hope this isn't meant for anyone who doesnt play paintball to read.

Hard enough to follow for someone who does play paintball, and knows a majoirty of what you are talking about.

[Automagsam]

ummm, ok..wow..umm hope this isn't meant for anyone who doesnt play paintball to read.

Hard enough to follow for someone who does play paintball, and knows a majoirty of what you are talking about.
Yeah I sperated it with spaces now tho since the whole indent thing doesn't work, now it should be fine.

[GT]

First, I think you need a big hug and a case of beer, only if you are of legal age, because it sounds like you need to chill it out big time.



Let me link this with another issue that is going on in a different subject. Back on December 12th 1980 an act was passed called the Bayh-Dole Act. Many people to this day do not know what I speak of when the Bayh-Dole Act is brought up (though some who are up in age rattle their minds as they draw out the memories). The act made it so any research and inventions that was discovered by Universities or private businesses could be patented.


Some of your statements about the act are incorrect and full of unfounded opinions. First, the Act was designed, and works very well, at allowing universities and not-for-profits to patent and tradmark research for federally funded projects. The cool part in all this is that the founding team retains some of the rights as does the university. The universty can then transfer the rights to another party for commercialization. The university then derives monetary compensation for the use of the technology. The best example of this is Gatorade out of the University of Florida. There are some limits on how the funding can be used, however, the university could use the funding to jump start new research, teaching ventaures, or service activites through community outreach or clinical practice.

Before you continue your tirade you might want to consider for a momment how universites acutally work. The vast majority of private and public universities could not survive on state funding or student tuition. The buisness of universities is infinitely more complicated than private industry and the folks who can educate on those practices are far and few bewteen.

Paintball and the buisness of paintball is small potatoes compared to most other industries. I am sure if any "real" company wanted to get into paintball, like oakley or nike, they could in an afternoon, purchase damn near the whole industry. When you consider how many real "players" thier are in the industry, a company would only need to buy a handful of companies.

Besides all this patent stuff with companies that are this small is really a waste of time. The only reason SP and others have not been chalanged is because someone with a bigger pile of cash for legal fees has not stepped up.

[Automagsam]

First, I think you need a big hug and a case of beer, only if you are of legal age, because it sounds like you need to chill it out big time.





Some of your statements about the act are incorrect and full of unfounded opinions. First, the Act was designed, and works very well, at allowing universities and not-for-profits to patent and tradmark research for federally funded projects. The cool part in all this is that the founding team retains some of the rights as does the university. The universty can then transfer the rights to another party for commercialization. The university then derives monetary compensation for the use of the technology. The best example of this is Gatorade out of the University of Florida. There are some limits on how the funding can be used, however, the university could use the funding to jump start new research, teaching ventaures, or service activites through community outreach or clinical practice.

Before you continue your tirade you might want to consider for a momment how universites acutally work. The vast majority of private and public universities could not survive on state funding or student tuition. The buisness of universities is infinitely more complicated than private industry and the folks who can educate on those practices are far and few bewteen.

Paintball and the buisness of paintball is small potatoes compared to most other industries. I am sure if any "real" company wanted to get into paintball, like oakley or nike, they could in an afternoon, purchase damn near the whole industry. When you consider how many real "players" thier are in the industry, a company would only need to buy a handful of companies.

Besides all this patent stuff with companies that are this small is really a waste of time. The only reason SP and others have not been chalanged is because someone with a bigger pile of cash for legal fees has not stepped up.
Yes but im not sure if your aware of this but certain genes are becoming patened, such as one of the diabetes strands, and we are having to pay to study certain diseases. It is not right to put a patent on genes period, this is something that cannot be invented thus it should not be patented, it only hinders developing cures and or solutions.

[latches109]

What you wrote is not economic terrorism.

[Automagsam]

What you wrote is not economic terrorism.
In the sense I used it and described it yes it is.

[Ninjeff]

I thought it was a well written and well done post.

One gold star for you sir.

[Automagsam]

I thought it was a well written and well done post.

One gold star for you sir.

Thanks :)

[BigEvil]

Good lecture... well thought out. It is indeed very frustrating the way paintball works these day.

Remember the differences in the industry between then and now though. In the days where TK and Bud Orr were gods, paintball was a fledgling new concept. Innovations went unpatented because it was in the best interests of the people that created them. "Make the pie bigger.." as people used to say.

Now, patents are not used for what they are intended.. to protect one's intellectual property. The only thing they are used for is to give one company leverage to extort money out of others in the form of licensing fees.

The patent office is as much at fault over the situation as any paintball company by letting vauge and redundant patents be filed. Simply a case of being undermanned and underfunded i suppose.

[Pacifist_Farmer]

I don't really see that anyone is at fault. THe paintball equipment industry has finally started to mature and it is behaving just like every other industry.

Look at the Apple/Cisco iPhone patent, millions of dollars spent for a simple trademark.

I see the big difference between paintball and other industries is that the number of individuals who actively care what happens in paintball is miniscule, compared to say cellular phones.

If companies couldn't patent things there would be little to no innovation available to the general public (I'll come back to this). The only responsible way for a company to recoup development is by patenting technologies and designs to guarantee an exclusive market share.

Paintball technologies seem to defy the rules which apply to most industries. THe vast developement costs which apply to say cellphones, do not necessarily apply to us. That is why individuals have been successful at innovating and improving with respect to markers. In this respect patents can hurt the paintball industry. But as long as the majority of players are content in purchasing this years model from the large companies this will continue.

THere is no "economic terrorism" in the paintball world, just normal economic movements. While your "lecture" was interesting it seemed like a biased primer for anyone just looking into the situation for the first time. A noble effort.

[shartley]

Sorry, but it is not economic terrorism. It is business. And while some of if may not affect companies you like in a way you like, it does not make it terrorism. What has happened in paintball happens in every industry out there, and in fact usually worse in other industries. The difference is that in most other industries the customer is not so exposed to what is happening.

You are also a bit off in your facts. AGD did not end the e-series because of SP. There were many reasons why AGD stopped production of the markers and they were all laid out here on the forum by AGD themselves. The SP issue was only one small factor and it affected more the development and release of a NEW e-marker than the dropping of the old one. But even if SP did not even exist, the AGD E-series markers would have been discontinued. I know it makes it easier to point fingers at a “bad guy” as the reason for this, but simply put slow sales as well as relatively high production cost and aggravation were more of a detriment to the e-series than SP ever was. And add to this that AGD stated the e-series was "old technology", you get the point.

That does not say the e-series from AGD were not great markers. That is not in debate.

[Lohman446]

Good lecture... well thought out. It is indeed very frustrating the way paintball works these day.

Remember the differences in the industry between then and now though. In the days where TK and Bud Orr were gods, paintball was a fledgling new concept. Innovations went unpatented because it was in the best interests of the people that created them. "Make the pie bigger.." as people used to say.

Now, patents are not used for what they are intended.. to protect one's intellectual property. The only thing they are used for is to give one company leverage to extort money out of others in the form of licensing fees.

The patent office is as much at fault over the situation as any paintball company by letting vauge and redundant patents be filed. Simply a case of being undermanned and underfunded i suppose.

What is the purpose of a patent that? "Protection" of ones intellectual property rights in reality means protection of the right to profit from ones intellectual property. That could be through direct sales, or marketting agreements with others. Patents are being used for exactly what they were meant to be used for today in paintball. The argument of the validity of those patents is an entirely different argument. Patents are being used for exactly what they were intended to.

[BigEvil]

What is the purpose of a patent that? "Protection" of ones intellectual property rights in reality means protection of the right to profit from ones intellectual property. That could be through direct sales, or marketting agreements with others. Patents are being used for exactly what they were meant to be used for today in paintball. The argument of the validity of those patents is an entirely different argument. Patents are being used for exactly what they were intended to.

Yeah, when you lay it out like that you are right but I guess it all goes back to the validity of the pattents. I know there are many instances in history where patents were not granted to prevent situations like the one in paintball.

[Lohman446]

Yeah, when you lay it out like that you are right but I guess it all goes back to the validity of the pattents. I know there are many instances in history where patents were not granted to prevent situations like the one in paintball.

Not granted when requested? Aside from medicine I don't know of an area where the government ignored patents for the good of... well anything. Not to say there are not exceptions of course. Considering back to when Smith and Wesson obtained the exclusive rights to the patent on bored through cylinders in revolvers (allowing cartridges) it would have been in the goverments best interest to not allow that patent. Yet it was allowed.

I do think SP is taking advantage of the little business aspect still. To an outsider that patent seems horribly broad, and one would think that if a company with the backing to actually fight it fully were to (I'm thinking K2), it would be whittled down. Funny, I bet SP never addresses K2 in an adverserial manner on it.

Paintball just shifted from a "lets make the pie bigger" to a "lets just take more pieces" economy a bit quicker than a lot of people expected, and we are finding we don't actually like having big business involved, at least in part. We have gotten what we wanted out of big business (better tolerances, cheaper equipment, cheaper paint, more promotion). Somehow we never considered there would be negative consequences...

[RRfireblade]

Pretty one sided , heavily biased and shallow view of reality. ;)

Typical thought process of someone who's never been in the thick of the related subject matter.


Yay for opinion. :D

[Automagsam]

Sorry, but it is not economic terrorism. It is business. And while some of if may not affect companies you like in a way you like, it does not make it terrorism. What has happened in paintball happens in every industry out there, and in fact usually worse in other industries. The difference is that in most other industries the customer is not so exposed to what is happening.

You are also a bit off in your facts. AGD did not end the e-series because of SP. There were many reasons why AGD stopped production of the markers and they were all laid out here on the forum by AGD themselves. The SP issue was only one small factor and it affected more the development and release of a NEW e-marker than the dropping of the old one. But even if SP did not even exist, the AGD E-series markers would have been discontinued. I know it makes it easier to point fingers at a “bad guy” as the reason for this, but simply put slow sales as well as relatively high production cost and aggravation were more of a detriment to the e-series than SP ever was. And add to this that AGD stated the e-series was "old technology", you get the point.

That does not say the e-series from AGD were not great markers. That is not in debate.
I have to argue that it is "economic terrorism", I mean that is the label I placed upon the economic crisis within paintball. Now why did I do that? Well I call it that because the business (which your right it is business) tactics being used by certain companies, are "dirty" in the sense that in order to get a company to respond to another companies demand, lawsuits are being used in which the company being sued has no choice but to settle, and or take the product off the market. Look back at the quote from Tom Kaye, he clearly states that AGD will not release any newly developed products anytime soon due to all the problems caused by these lawsuits and patents.

It is Economic terrorism because companies are using dirty tactics for there own economic advantage. Now you may go look it up in the dictionary, but if you noticed within my lecture I used "" around the term, so it is me using it in the that context, If you wish to argue thats not true companies are not doing that go right ahead, but I think any arguement over what the term means is asinine because the big picture is not a definition of the term.

Now about the X-mag,yes I do understand part of it was the sluggish sales and production costs, but you yourself even pointed out
"The SP issue was only one small factor and it affected more the development and release of a NEW e-marker than the dropping of the old one. But even if SP did not even exist, the AGD E-series markers would have been discontinued." so at least you admit the threat was there, however I don't think you can weigh the effect it had on the X-mag, since you don't know, you've only read what people have typed, heck I don't know I wasn't in that board room or whatever when they decided to drop it, but one thing we do know is it did have an effect and that is the point here.

[Mind'sEye]

I have to argue that it is "economic terrorism", I mean that is the label I placed upon the economic crisis within paintball. Now why did I do that? Well I call it that because the business (which your right it is business) tactics being used by certain companies, are "dirty" in the sense that in order to get a company to respond to another companies demand, lawsuits are being used in which the company being sued has no choice but to settle, and or take the product off the market. Look back at the quote from Tom Kaye, he clearly states that AGD will not release any newly developed products anytime soon due to all the problems caused by these lawsuits and patents.

ICD seems to be doing fine under it's licensing agreement with SP. The newly released Mini has some innovative system integration developments. The SP approach may seem unscrupulous, but it has not affected competition to the same extent that the Microsoft Windows operating/licensing system has in the computing world. If you look further back you'll find that Tom has said that the cost of redesigning and manufacturing a new E/Xmag platform was as much a factor in dropping development as paying a licensing fee to SP. It comes down to whether or not you have a product that is cost effective and desirable enough in today's marketing climate to make a profit.

[snoopay700]

Sorry, but it is not economic terrorism. It is business. And while some of if may not affect companies you like in a way you like, it does not make it terrorism. What has happened in paintball happens in every industry out there, and in fact usually worse in other industries. The difference is that in most other industries the customer is not so exposed to what is happening.

You are also a bit off in your facts. AGD did not end the e-series because of SP. There were many reasons why AGD stopped production of the markers and they were all laid out here on the forum by AGD themselves. The SP issue was only one small factor and it affected more the development and release of a NEW e-marker than the dropping of the old one. But even if SP did not even exist, the AGD E-series markers would have been discontinued. I know it makes it easier to point fingers at a “bad guy” as the reason for this, but simply put slow sales as well as relatively high production cost and aggravation were more of a detriment to the e-series than SP ever was. And add to this that AGD stated the e-series was "old technology", you get the point.

That does not say the e-series from AGD were not great markers. That is not in debate.
I find it odd that you find what is happening acceptable just because it's "business." It is business, but business doesn't have to be something horrible, and you don't have to connive and sue to get ahead in business. What smart parts did was horribly wrong, and i don't see why it's acceptable just becuase it happens in other industries.

As someone else said, that paintball has matured, i guess matured is a synonym for corrupt, because that's pretty much what has happened. Unfortunately in America, "matured" and corrupt are the same thing, but that again, doesn't make it right. I really don't understand this justification, especially since paintball isn't too far gone, but can be saved, but i suppose no one gives a damn.

Big Evil, you're right about how the industry has changed, but still, trying to patent the very idea of firing a marker by means of electricity in any manner is still something horrible. Smart Parts is a horrible company (along with others, they're just the biggest) and is essentially the Wal-Mart of paintball, and they seem to want to monopolize the sport.

I'm not saying this is bad because it's afected the companies i like badly, i'm saying it's bad because it's suffocating the growth of the sport. As someone said, the mini is innovative, the only thing different is it's got fewer wires and the gas goes through the trigger frame. Nothing really special, i mean it's not all that innovative. It introduced two new things that in all honesty weren't very hard to do. That coupled with the fact that they've had problems, and i'd think it's safe to say that any growth has pretty much died. Anyone is welcome to argue this point though.

[Lohman446]

I find it odd that you find what is happening acceptable just because it's "business." It is business, but business doesn't have to be something horrible, and you don't have to connive and sue to get ahead in business. What smart parts did was horribly wrong, and i don't see why it's acceptable just becuase it happens in other industries.

As someone else said, that paintball has matured, i guess matured is a synonym for corrupt, because that's pretty much what has happened. Unfortunately in America, "matured" and corrupt are the same thing, but that again, doesn't make it right. I really don't understand this justification, especially since paintball isn't too far gone, but can be saved, but i suppose no one gives a damn.

Big Evil, you're right about how the industry has changed, but still, trying to patent the very idea of firing a marker by means of electricity in any manner is still something horrible. Smart Parts is a horrible company (along with others, they're just the biggest) and is essentially the Wal-Mart of paintball, and they seem to want to monopolize the sport.

I'm not saying this is bad because it's afected the companies i like badly, i'm saying it's bad because it's suffocating the growth of the sport. As someone said, the mini is innovative, the only thing different is it's got fewer wires and the gas goes through the trigger frame. Nothing really special, i mean it's not all that innovative. It introduced two new things that in all honesty weren't very hard to do. That coupled with the fact that they've had problems, and i'd think it's safe to say that any growth has pretty much died. Anyone is welcome to argue this point though.

Have you ever successfully run a business in a competetive environment?

[snoopay700]

Have you ever successfully run a business in a competetive environment?
No, i haven't, i haven't even tried. Still, i don't see what that has to do with anything, i mean have you? My point was that just because other industries are like that doesn't make it acceptable for paintball's industry to be like this. Paintball used to have a good industry, then people got money hungry and screwed it up. I personally wouldn't care if i amde a lot of money, so long as i was making good products and helping move the sport forward, but we're currently at a stand still. I just don't understand how you guys try to rationalize what's happening as being all right.

[GT]

Yes but im not sure if your aware of this but certain genes are becoming patened, such as one of the diabetes strands, and we are having to pay to study certain diseases. It is not right to put a patent on genes period, this is something that cannot be invented thus it should not be patented, it only hinders developing cures and or solutions.


WTF?????


This thread keeps getting better.

[Automagsam]

WTF?????


This thread keeps getting better.
Oh you didn't know that did you...

"A new study shows that 20 percent of human genes have been patented in the United States, primarily by private firms and universities."

here is the article from the national geographic ...I guess its a little more serious than the patenting of gatorade....

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/10/1013_051013_gene_patent.html

First, the Act was designed, and works very well, at allowing universities and not-for-profits to patent and tradmark research for federally funded projects. The cool part in all this is that the founding team retains some of the rights as does the university. The universty can then transfer the rights to another party for commercialization. The university then derives monetary compensation for the use of the technology. The best example of this is Gatorade out of the University of Florida. (What you GT said earlier) If you were trying to give an example of what the act did why did you use Gatorade which the first flavor came out in 1969, when the act wasn't even put into effect till 1980? Hardly the best example.

[Lohman446]

No, i haven't, i haven't even tried. Still, i don't see what that has to do with anything, i mean have you? My point was that just because other industries are like that doesn't make it acceptable for paintball's industry to be like this. Paintball used to have a good industry, then people got money hungry and screwed it up. I personally wouldn't care if i amde a lot of money, so long as i was making good products and helping move the sport forward, but we're currently at a stand still. I just don't understand how you guys try to rationalize what's happening as being all right.
Have I ever successful run a business in a competetive environment? Yeh, rather well

[BigEvil]

Have I ever successful run a business in a competetive environment? Yeh, rather well


So why is it doing so well? Did you sue the competition into oblivion? Or do you just have a much better product/service than your competators?

If I had to guess.. I would say that you get up in the morning, go to work, bust your ***, and have developed a loyal customer base, probably by doing what you do well and striving to do it better than anyone else. Not by sicing a battery of lawyers on the other guys.


I understand the other side of this issue, however it sickens me to the point of vomitting.

[Lohman446]

So why is it doing so well? Did you sue the competition into oblivion? Or do you just have a much better product/service than your competators?

If I had to guess.. I would say that you get up in the morning, go to work, bust your ***, and have developed a loyal customer base, probably by doing what you do well and striving to do it better than anyone else. Not by sicing a battery of lawyers on the other guys.


I understand the other side of this issue, however it sickens me to the point of vomitting.

There is no reason that someone should not be allowed to use lawyers to protect ones intellectual property.

In direct answer to your question I have never sued a competitor. However, the idea that someone with zero experience gets on and tells how easy it is to run a business, and how someone should have, concerns me. No, I'm not referring to you. I doubt Adam and Billy wake up in the morning and say "lets screw someone and be greedy".

[snoopay700]

There is no reason that someone should not be allowed to use lawyers to protect ones intellectual property.

In direct answer to your question I have never sued a competitor. However, the idea that someone with zero experience gets on and tells how easy it is to run a business, and how someone should have, concerns me. No, I'm not referring to you. I doubt Adam and Billy wake up in the morning and say "lets screw someone and be greedy".
Trying to patent all electrical means of firing a marker is not protecting one's intellectual property. Also, i was never claiming it's easy to run a business, no clue where in the hell you got that idea, i was simply saying that just because companies in other industries sue to get ahead doesn't make it right.

[Coralis]

My take on the whole situation is that the patent is way to vague and broad its like allowing Ford (insert any car manufacturer) to be able to patent internal combustion powered car or allowing a pharmaceutical company to patent all nsaids under one patent. The patients should be invalidated and the affected companies should have to resubmit for actual designs of there marker and not just a theory of operation for a electrically trigger pneumatic device for shooting paintballs.

[RRfireblade]

You all are argueing (well many of you) about completely the wrong angle.

The problem is with the USPTO not anyone else. And guess what , you don't get to argue with the Government in our wonderful psuedo democratic US of A.

I don't blame SP for what they got away with , any of you would have done the exact same thing if in the same position. It's really easy to be high and mighty when it's not your business, family or life on the line but in real life I promise you all would take any advantage you can "Legally" get away with.

Patents are kinda like wriitng an Essay for school. You put as much crap in there as possible knowing full well the the teacher is going to weed thru most of the BS and come up with a result based on whats left. You then hope theres enough substance left over to get a passing grade. Now say the Teacher buys every single line of BS in there and makes you valedictorian of the whole school based on that. Who's at fault there ? You or the Teacher ?

You going to turn the honor down and say no , sorry teach. That whole essay is full of BS and I would prefer a D- ?

Didn't think so. ;)

If submit a Patent application on say , fresh air and the USPTO grants it , who's at fault ?

[latches109]

American Heritage Dictionary
Terrorism
n. The unlawful use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

The word economic is an adjective describing the type of terrorism.

What is occurring in the paintball industry pertaining to patents is not unlawful.

Defending patents to ensure profits and creating barriers to market entry are normal.

American Heritage Dictionary
Game Theory
n. A mathematical method of decision-making in which a competitive situation is analyzed to determine the optimal course of action for an interested party, often used in political, economic, and military planning. Also called theory of games.

Atlas Shrugged by Ann Rand. The book parallels your notions of economic/business/industry cannibalism. Also studying Game Theory, Industrial Organization (covering strategic entry barriers) and law & economics (covering the economics of lawsuits), might change your opinion. fun thread to read none the less.

[BigEvil]

There is no reason that someone should not be allowed to use lawyers to protect ones intellectual property.

In direct answer to your question I have never sued a competitor. However, the idea that someone with zero experience gets on and tells how easy it is to run a business, and how someone should have, concerns me. No, I'm not referring to you. I doubt Adam and Billy wake up in the morning and say "lets screw someone and be greedy".

I understand that.. and I agree people should, by all means be able to protect what is theres. Im sure the gardners dont think they are screwing anyone, or are being greedy.. but that's how it end up. It's not illegal, and is an 'acceptable business practice'.. but just because it is, doesnt mean some of the things are not morally questionable.. or at the very least highly unpopular.

People also dont wake up in the morning and say "Oh, let me go kill my unborn baby", yet thousands of woman have abortions every year. It is legal and within their rights, but it does not make it 'right'. But those people have their reasons, and Im sure that (Insert person here) would have reasons of their own.

So while it is within their rights to go around and do what they do.. it doesnt mean that anyone has to like it. I excersise my disaproval everytime I pass on a Smart Parts product and purchase something else.

What is also so disturbing to many of us, is just how absurd the whole situation is. I believe that this is a case of the inmates running the asylum. Oh well. I guess I shouldnt really give a damn... it's non of my concern anyhow. And when you think about it, if Smart Parts didnt do it first, someone else would have.

[Automagsam]

You all are argueing (well many of you) about completely the wrong angle.

The problem is with the USPTO not anyone else. And guess what , you don't get to argue with the Government in our wonderful psuedo democratic US of A.

I don't blame SP for what they got away with , any of you would have done the exact same thing if in the same position. It's really easy to be high and mighty when it's not your business, family or life on the line but in real life I promise you all would take any advantage you can "Legally" get away with.

Patents are kinda like wriitng an Essay for school. You put as much crap in there as possible knowing full well the the teacher is going to weed thru most of the BS and come up with a result based on whats left. You then hope theres enough substance left over to get a passing grade. Now say the Teacher buys every single line of BS in there and makes you valedictorian of the whole school based on that. Who's at fault there ? You or the Teacher ?

You going to turn the honor down and say no , sorry teach. That whole essay is full of BS and I would prefer a D- ?

Didn't think so. ;)

If submit a Patent application on say , fresh air and the USPTO grants it , who's at fault ? Saying that any of us would do the same things is a pretty bad statement, cause in no way would I sue my way into money. You can say its really easy to be all high and mighty, but its not, actually its harder, the easy way is to sue everyone. And if everyone was the way you say it is then how come there are companies like AGD that don't sue there way for money??? Were they all "high and mighty" no, they did not take the easy way out. Now you give this whole analogy on school and stuff, but I'd never BS my way through an essay in the first place, cause that is plane easy and taking the easy way out, oh but thats not what you want to here, didn't think so. ;)

[Tao]

The slow in development I don't think is due to the Smart Parts lawsuits (although I see a trend starting...). What does the smart parts lawsuit have to do with anything with the "inovativeness" formerly saw in paintball. We saw innovations such as compressed air, force feed loaders, and electronic triggers. Why all of a sudden do inovations sease just because it is a pain to make an electro trigger? A paintball marker doesn't revolve around an electro trigger it is simply another inovation....

Pnemags are new inovations. I haven't really bothered following their progress, but I get the idea that the technology isn't necesarily pantented (I could be wrong...I don't even know if all the bugs are worked out even). If this new technology could work and just as well as electro guns, why doesn't AGD make a new X mag using this technology instead??


I do agree that a trend is starting in the wake of the SP lawsuits and the pulse is a good example. It was an inovative product and is getting shot down over who even knows??? I don't think companies should live in fear of getting sued when they invent something new...that is what the patent office is for. Come up with an idea, check to see if it is patented yet, if not make it. Simple process, just have to be patient to run through all the patents....waiting even a year to release something new is better than not making anything at all...

And for what its worth, I am surprised that the patent for electronic triggers (wo ever has it) has kept their patent since I would think it is pretty much public domain (which if something becomes so poular and well known the patent is lost).

[snoopay700]

The slow in development I don't think is due to the Smart Parts lawsuits (although I see a trend starting...). What does the smart parts lawsuit have to do with anything with the "inovativeness" formerly saw in paintball. We saw innovations such as compressed air, force feed loaders, and electronic triggers. Why all of a sudden do inovations sease just because it is a pain to make an electro trigger? A paintball marker doesn't revolve around an electro trigger it is simply another inovation....

Pnemags are new inovations. I haven't really bothered following their progress, but I get the idea that the technology isn't necesarily pantented (I could be wrong...I don't even know if all the bugs are worked out even). If this new technology could work and just as well as electro guns, why doesn't AGD make a new X mag using this technology instead??


I do agree that a trend is starting in the wake of the SP lawsuits and the pulse is a good example. It was an inovative product and is getting shot down over who even knows??? I don't think companies should live in fear of getting sued when they invent something new...that is what the patent office is for. Come up with an idea, check to see if it is patented yet, if not make it. Simple process, just have to be patient to run through all the patents....waiting even a year to release something new is better than not making anything at all...

And for what its worth, I am surprised that the patent for electronic triggers (wo ever has it) has kept their patent since I would think it is pretty much public domain (which if something becomes so poular and well known the patent is lost).
The way it has slowed progress is exactly as Tom said for some, which is they're afraid of getting sued so they don't make anything new. The other reason is because they've got a marker that they've convinced people is the best (most companies) so they just refurbish it and sell it the following year as new, yet there have been no new innovations.

Pnuemags are a bit different because those are made by modders, not companies. Anyway, there is a patent on pnuemags, Pro Team Products has one and i believe Deadly Wind (if it's someone else correct me) has a patent on a different pnuematic design. The difference here is that Tom can't and won't make a new mag based off of this, because again, teh lawsuit problem comes up (ptp is pretty known for lawsuits in this area i believe). The only reason people are allowed to make them is because they aren't selling it as a product, and i'm not sure if the design is different or not.

Again, like i said, it stops progress by fear and if they did get their blanket patent passed it would stop other companies from making electric markers (after a while i'm sure most companies would stop) so it would be a monopoly. The fact that they even attempted this is contemptable enough. Also, what if you make up a design and you make a prototype, but you find out one aspect of it might infringe a patent or something, you're then risking a lawsuit because that is what people in this industry have led to.

Anyway, sp didn't get the patent, but they tried to get it after electrics had been on the market for a while. It wasn't their design, but they wanted to create a monopoly so they would have the lowest prices yet still make a very decent profit. Also, i don't know how true that whole thing about if something becomes popular enough and used widely enough is true, because there was actually a guy not too far from where i live who found out that there was no patent on the wing nut, even though it had been used for ages, so he asked a patent lawyer if he could patent it and he actually was granted the patent and now gets a few extra thousand per month or few months or something like that. I mean he patented a product that was already in wide use, so i question the validity of your claim.

[damageINC]

So I kind of got sick of the long winded stuff about 9 posts ago, but I was wondering....is there a statute of limitation on how long a patent holder may hold exclusive rights on said patent? I know, for instance, that in the biotech industry there is (I used to work in it). Companies may research, design, and patent anything they want....and if the patent goes through successfully, they have (I believe) and 8 year window to the exclusive rights of said patent. This is to turn a deserved profit without unfair competition.

After that time, the product may enter public domain and other companies can legally reverse engineer the design. A good example would hospital sterilizers or viagra. Once that initial window expires, generic companies may legally reverse engineer either one and sell it on the cheap. So wouldn't SP's strangle hold on the electronic paintball marker be up by now? Or am I mistaken?

[shartley]

I have to argue that it is "economic terrorism", I mean that is the label I placed upon the economic crisis within paintball. Now why did I do that? Well I call it that because the business (which your right it is business) tactics being used by certain companies, are "dirty" in the sense that in order to get a company to respond to another companies demand, lawsuits are being used in which the company being sued has no choice but to settle, and or take the product off the market. Look back at the quote from Tom Kaye, he clearly states that AGD will not release any newly developed products anytime soon due to all the problems caused by these lawsuits and patents.

It is Economic terrorism because companies are using dirty tactics for there own economic advantage. Now you may go look it up in the dictionary, but if you noticed within my lecture I used "" around the term, so it is me using it in the that context, If you wish to argue thats not true companies are not doing that go right ahead, but I think any arguement over what the term means is asinine because the big picture is not a definition of the term.

Now about the X-mag,yes I do understand part of it was the sluggish sales and production costs, but you yourself even pointed out so at least you admit the threat was there, however I don't think you can weigh the effect it had on the X-mag, since you don't know, you've only read what people have typed, heck I don't know I wasn't in that board room or whatever when they decided to drop it, but one thing we do know is it did have an effect and that is the point here.
You are free to think what you want. But just because you think it does not make it fact. I will not argue with you about things that clearly you are only seeing form outside the business world and not from within. This is not a slam, but I have run businesses for a good many years and know that even though some things are not “nice’ they are a part of business. You either deal with them and overcome or you get out.

You also state that I am only taking what others wrote online about the X-Mag… correct!!!! But it was what TOM KAYE wrote online as well as AGDE. And those are what folks would consider “from the horse’s mouth”. So you could then say that I am either correct, or they lied openly on the forum. I will leave it at that.

I find it odd that you find what is happening acceptable just because it's "business." It is business, but business doesn't have to be something horrible, and you don't have to connive and sue to get ahead in business. What smart parts did was horribly wrong, and i don't see why it's acceptable just becuase it happens in other industries.

As someone else said, that paintball has matured, i guess matured is a synonym for corrupt, because that's pretty much what has happened. Unfortunately in America, "matured" and corrupt are the same thing, but that again, doesn't make it right. I really don't understand this justification, especially since paintball isn't too far gone, but can be saved, but i suppose no one gives a damn.

Big Evil, you're right about how the industry has changed, but still, trying to patent the very idea of firing a marker by means of electricity in any manner is still something horrible. Smart Parts is a horrible company (along with others, they're just the biggest) and is essentially the Wal-Mart of paintball, and they seem to want to monopolize the sport.

I'm not saying this is bad because it's afected the companies i like badly, i'm saying it's bad because it's suffocating the growth of the sport. As someone said, the mini is innovative, the only thing different is it's got fewer wires and the gas goes through the trigger frame. Nothing really special, i mean it's not all that innovative. It introduced two new things that in all honesty weren't very hard to do. That coupled with the fact that they've had problems, and i'd think it's safe to say that any growth has pretty much died. Anyone is welcome to argue this point though.
Where did I every say it is acceptable because it is “business”? Please go back and read what I wrote.

Anyone who has actually RUN or OWNED a business knows that the rules of the game are not always “nice” nor are the players. You can either cry about it, or adapt and overcome. That does not mean you have to roll over and say things are “fine”, but the game of business is akin to WAR, and both have casualties and players who are not nice. And I suggest that if folks don’t want to deal with it, they don’t enter the business world.

Again, this is NOT saying I agree with everything that happens, or things are “fine” because they are a part of the game. It is saying I ;am a realist and know that like boxing, if you are in the ring for any length of time you will get a bloody nose.


Have you ever successfully run a business in a competetive environment?
Good question for him, and others…

No, i haven't, i haven't even tried. Still, i don't see what that has to do with anything, i mean have you? My point was that just because other industries are like that doesn't make it acceptable for paintball's industry to be like this. Paintball used to have a good industry, then people got money hungry and screwed it up. I personally wouldn't care if i amde a lot of money, so long as i was making good products and helping move the sport forward, but we're currently at a stand still. I just don't understand how you guys try to rationalize what's happening as being all right.
That is the problem, you don’t SEE. And I find paintball players getting upset at those who don’t play paintball and make judgment calls on the game. But paintball players then turn around and make calls on business when they don’t even HAVE a business? You too are looking at it from the outside.

What would you think if folks started ragging on the fact that paintballs hurt when you get hit, and that it is a “war like” game filled will violence? I bet you would say “that is not the entire picture, and if you don’t like the game don’t play”. Well, business it the same. And while we may not “like” the game, we have to realize that there are certain things that go on that we may not like but are part of the game.

You also keep saying some of us are saying everything that is happening in the paintball industry is okay or “all right”. But what folks ARE saying is that what is happening is PART OF BUSINESS, right or wrong. And there is a huge difference.

You all are argueing (well many of you) about completely the wrong angle.

The problem is with the USPTO not anyone else. And guess what , you don't get to argue with the Government in our wonderful psuedo democratic US of A.

I don't blame SP for what they got away with , any of you would have done the exact same thing if in the same position. It's really easy to be high and mighty when it's not your business, family or life on the line but in real life I promise you all would take any advantage you can "Legally" get away with.

Patents are kinda like wriitng an Essay for school. You put as much crap in there as possible knowing full well the the teacher is going to weed thru most of the BS and come up with a result based on whats left. You then hope theres enough substance left over to get a passing grade. Now say the Teacher buys every single line of BS in there and makes you valedictorian of the whole school based on that. Who's at fault there ? You or the Teacher ?

You going to turn the honor down and say no , sorry teach. That whole essay is full of BS and I would prefer a D- ?

Didn't think so. ;)

If submit a Patent application on say , fresh air and the USPTO grants it , who's at fault ?
Agreed.

I believe many folks here are just shaking their fist at the moon. But it is easy to sit on the outside of the ring and complain about things. It is easy to hold such high standards and indignation when you are not slugging it out yourself. The “idea” of business and the “reality” of business is often far from the same thing.

[RRfireblade]

Saying that any of us would do the same things is a pretty bad statement, cause in no way would I sue my way into money. You can say its really easy to be all high and mighty, but its not, actually its harder, the easy way is to sue everyone. And if everyone was the way you say it is then how come there are companies like AGD that don't sue there way for money??? Were they all "high and mighty" no, they did not take the easy way out. Now you give this whole analogy on school and stuff,


but I'd never BS my way through an essay in the first place, cause that is plane easy and taking the easy way out, oh but thats not what you want to here, didn't think so. ;)

You only say that cause you think you are right and they are wrong in the situation.

What if you felt you were in the right ?

And I'm sure you neer put a single word in an essay that didn't have 100% relevance. :rolleyes:

[CaliMagFan]

is it a speech, is it an essay? does he know what subject verb agreement is? sorry autogasm, this is a poorly written and ill conceived piece. i wont sit and berate you about the accuracy of your factual claims- this is just poor writing from the start. it is just an internet forum, but when you give the allusion that you're writiing/ speaking this on the serious you should really try and come through with a well-thought and written piece. good try. maybe a peer edit, but of an earlier draft. kyro

[Automagsam]

is it a speech, is it an essay? does he know what subject verb agreement is? sorry autogasm, this is a poorly written and ill conceived piece. i wont sit and berate you about the accuracy of your factual claims- this is just poor writing from the start. it is just an internet forum, but when you give the allusion that you're writiing/ speaking this on the serious you should really try and come through with a well-thought and written piece. good try. maybe a peer edit, but of an earlier draft. kyro
I wasn't aware I would be graded for this. and I hope the rest of you realise you are very hypocritical, because you keep saying we only see it one way, when you are doing the same thing. Show me evidence that SP, did not file those lawsuits against all the companies, and I will step down and never post in this thread again, cause if that was the case SP would have never (though they did it legally and I understand that) sued people to get where they are. And for those who want to turn this into an English Class go to www.writing.com you can criticize writing styles there.

[shartley]

I wasn't aware I would be graded for this. and I hope the rest of you realise you are very hypocritical, because you keep saying we only see it one way, when you are doing the same thing. Show me evidence that SP, did not file those lawsuits against all the companies, and I will step down and never post in this thread again, cause if that was the case SP would have never (though they did it legally and I understand that) sued people to get where they are. And for those who want to turn this into an English Class go to www.writing.com you can criticize writing styles there.
Hypocritical? Not by a long shot. REALISTIC.

And you must realize that those making the accusations have the burden of proof, not the other way around. You can’t just make claims and then demand others prove you wrong. Plus you don’t seem to understand the principle behind LEGAL actions VS “pleasant” actions; as well as the right to defend what has been designated your property by the USPTO VS whether the USPTO should have granted the patent in the first place. They are separate issues.

As for it being an English Class…You opened that up yourself by not just posting your opinions but titling them Paintball And “Economic Terrorism”
Lecture By Samuel Langford February 23, 2007. This opens the doors to critiques on the “lecture” itself as well as its content.

In my opinion this was not a lecture but a rant and op-ed piece at best. You do have spirit, but the facts used for your opinions are questionable at best and it is clear you do not have any real background to speak on the matter, which is usually preferred for those giving lectures.

You seem very naive as to many things, but you do have spirit….

[RRfireblade]

The simple fact and biggest flaw in your whole thought process is this . . .

None of the SP nonsence had any real effect on PBs economic state.

Simple as that. :)

You want to take a stab at something that is grounded in actual fact ? Here's a little insight from someone IN the industry , been on all 3 sides , and has a pretty good idea. ;)

3 things :

1) Start with the mass industry change to asian manufacturing (over seas) and importing of paintball product.

2) Internet marketing and sales of non brick and mortor retaillers dominating the major paintball market share.

3) Majority of all paintball product distribution being controlled by an extremely small number of business , who BTW , practice heavily in 1) and 2).

There. Now you have a basis of fact worthy of a lecture. :cheers:

Go get 'em tiger.

[snoopay700]

Shartley, i only said that people were saying it was ok because that is how they made it sound. Now that you've elaborated on that i understand a bit better and it makes more sense to me. My main argument i guess is that sp starting the whole suing trend is destroying paintball and that they're morally a horrible company for what they tried to do. I guess that's all i really have to say, i won't rant on anymore.

[RRfireblade]

They most certainly did not. ;)

[snoopay700]

They most certainly did not. ;)
Wait, what? I don't see anything in my post that that is really relevant to, so if you could tell me which part exactly i'd appreciate it, cause at this point i'm just a little confused.

[RRfireblade]

Paintball Companys have been sueing each other well before SP got famous for it. :)

Just for example , WDP was the holder of the title before they took on SP and became the Hulk Hogan of paintball. ( bad analogy I'm sure :) )

[Scott Hudnall]

Perhaps this senseless, ongoing, and idealic argument regarding SP's defense of their patents will end one day.

Should you ever own an idea, intellectual property, etc, and have a patent granted....and spent much time and $$ on R & D, only to find others are simply taking your ideas and making profit with them....you would defend them, too.

The result of what has happened in recent years could, at best, be described in the term (noted in above post) "industry cannibalism", in that it has resulted in companies going out of business because they have been unable to defend their use of the patented technology in their paintball markers.

Taking a history lesson from the "gee, wish I had applied for a patent" chapter: Eli Whitney (and his descendents) certainly could have benefited from a patent on the Cotton Gin. Bud Orr could have benefited from a patent on the autococker. But, neither applied for it, interestingly enough.

K2 has certainly used an industrial strong arm to defend Bud's design once the company obtained the rights to the wOrr stuff. No one is slamming K2 for their defense of what they consider their intellectual property, but I guarantee you that there are many small companies who made/manufactured 'cocker knock off parts and bodies which are either out of biz or doing something else. Only a few short years ago, you could have built a custom 'cocker....quite easily.....with aftermarket parts and not had one stitch of wOrr game products in it.

All you Smart Part haters.....get off it already. You simply have patent envy.

[snoopay700]

Paintball Companys have been sueing each other well before SP got famous for it. :)

Just for example , WDP was the holder of the title before they took on SP and became the Hulk Hogan of paintball. ( bad analogy I'm sure :) )
Ah, gotcha. I guess that smart parts just blew everything else out of the water because i hadn't heard that lawsuits had been that bad. Regardless, that trend is still ruining paintball, no matter who started it.

[RRfireblade]

Perhaps this senseless, ongoing, and idealic argument regarding SP's defense of their patents will end one day.

Should you ever own an idea, intellectual property, etc, and have a patent granted....and spent much time and $$ on R & D, only to find others are simply taking your ideas and making profit with them....you would defend them, too.

The result of what has happened in recent years could, at best, be described in the term (noted in above post) "industry cannibalism", in that it has resulted in companies going out of business because they have been unable to defend their use of the patented technology in their paintball markers.

Taking a history lesson from the "gee, wish I had applied for a patent" chapter: Eli Whitney (and his descendents) certainly could have benefited from a patent on the Cotton Gin. Bud Orr could have benefited from a patent on the autococker. But, neither applied for it, interestingly enough.

K2 has certainly used an industrial strong arm to defend Bud's design once the company obtained the rights to the wOrr stuff. No one is slamming K2 for their defense of what they consider their intellectual property, but I guarantee you that there are many small companies who made/manufactured 'cocker knock off parts and bodies which are either out of biz or doing something else. Only a few short years ago, you could have built a custom 'cocker....quite easily.....with aftermarket parts and not had one stitch of wOrr game products in it.

All you Smart Part haters.....get off it already. You simply have patent envy.


You may or may not actually , be amazed at how much WGP product is made over seas by related manufactures to many of the people they put out of business in the past for doing the same thing. :)

[RRfireblade]

Ah, gotcha. I guess that smart parts just blew everything else out of the water because i hadn't heard that lawsuits had been that bad. Regardless, that trend is still ruining paintball, no matter who started it.

No question it was the highest profile , in large part cause most people didn't understand it , and claimed the end of all things paintball was near. :)

Seems like it's hanging in there just fine.

What's your thoughts , more or less electros on the field today than say 3-4 years ago ?

Average price of said electros, over or under $5-600 compared to 3-4 years ago ?

:D

Average price of the most common electros on the field today compared to MECHs from 3-4 years ago. :ninja:

[craltal]

The only thing SP is guilty of is taking advantage of a situation given to them by the Patent office for intellectual property they own the rights to.

Whether or not there was some shady dealings or pressuring in their acquisition of said rights isn't even a factor. If there was anything illegal about it, PVI or it's agents would have sued.

The business world is so much nastier and complicated behind closed doors than most of the ideologues posting here understand. SP not using the leverage the patent gives them is like driving your car and never taking it out of first gear. Putting my personal feelings aside, I can't blame them for doing what they are.

My complaint with the original post has to do with your duplicity and a very one-sided argument. You state "This is not an open assault on any company or its products," yet do not use any examples aside from SP and AGD. If you wanted to, you could have used DYE's patent on spool valves, or the patent on barrel condoms, but you used an obvious inflammatory example and how it hurt AGD, only briefly mentioning AKA and ICD. If this was supposed to be for anyplace other than to be posted here, I also think you failed to give sufficient background information that someone who does not know about paintball and the names and abbreviations of different companies would get lost.

Oh and Scott, Budd Orr couldn't have gotten a sole-ownership patent on the autococker. At the very least it would have been a joint with Glenn Palmer if not his outright.

[snoopay700]

No question it was the highest profile , in large part cause most people didn't understand it , and claimed the end of all things paintball was near. :)

Seems like it's hanging in there just fine.

What's your thoughts , more or less electros on the field today than say 3-4 years ago ?

Average price of said electros, over or under $5-600 compared to 3-4 years ago ?

:D

Average price of the most common electros on the field today compared to MECHs from 3-4 years ago. :ninja:
I meant as far as new technologies and guns and such. Granted the price of guns hasn't changed too much (some have gotten pretty bad though). But no one is coming out with anything new. I mean even the mini only has the gas through the frame going for it.

Craltal, when did i say Budd could have gotten a sole ownership on it? I believe you're thinking of scott, not me, i don't even think i mentioned budd throughout this thred.

[craltal]

sorry, didn't scroll up high enough to check. editing it now.

[snoopay700]

sorry, didn't scroll up high enough to check. editing it now.
Ok, you just confused me for a second because i know i've metnined him before, but i didn't remember saying anything in here.

[RRfireblade]

I meant as far as new technologies and guns and such. Granted the price of guns hasn't changed too much (some have gotten pretty bad though). But no one is coming out with anything new. I mean even the mini only has the gas through the frame going for it.

Craltal, when did i say Budd could have gotten a sole ownership on it? I believe you're thinking of scott, not me, i don't even think i mentioned budd throughout this thred.


I'm talking about precisely that tho , a few years ago your choices for a 200 electro were pretty much an e-spyder. Now you have half a dozen markers that are FAR better performing than that in that price range.

A few years ago people were spending 300-400+ for mech Cockers and such , 1-2 before that $500+.

It's the best time in the history of paintball for performance to dollar ratio right now and it's still only going to get better.

[craltal]

I'm talking about precisely that tho , a few years ago your choices for a 200 electro were pretty much an e-spyder. Now you have half a dozen markers that are FAR better performing than that in that price range.

A few years ago people were spending 300-400+ for mech Cockers and such , 1-2 before that $500+.

It's the best time in the history of paintball for performance to dollar ratio right now and it's still only going to get better.


Even this generation of e-spyders far exceeds those ones from a few years ago

[Automagsam]

Even this generation of e-spyders far exceeds those ones from a few years ago
Yes and they got there through the very works of people, who aren't able to put out products now.


Yes I do still own AGD, Zupe owns the inventory and is selling things. It is certainly not clear even if we did make something that people would buy it. Look at the slug body threads where the screams for product are answered but the product remains unsold.

There is a ton going on in the industry right now with the whole NPS/PMI consolidation and yet another new round of lawsuits. My take on that is that its not worth any companies time to develop new products, its better to go sue someone for the money the old products are generating.

I am sitting back until I see ABSOULUTELY CLEARLY that there is a true demand for a product that is either unpatentable or I already have a patent on. That is a pretty small window to shoot for and unlikely to happen soon. The forum is unreliable for marketing purposes, a few people can make a big noise.

AGD
Reply With Quote



I would like to point out:
There is a ton going on in the industry right now with the whole NPS/PMI consolidation and yet another new round of lawsuits. My take on that is that its not worth any companies time to develop new products, its better to go sue someone for the money the old products are generating.
Some one clarify what Tom means plz?

[RRfireblade]

Some one clarify what Tom means plz?

Only Tom knows.

A TON of new products and markers have come out since that statement. All in at lower than ever pricing , all surpassing performance and bang for the buck by a long shot from previous product.

New loaders, entry level markers , marker upgrades . . .


What else is there ?

Only thing that hasn't really changed in the last 1-2 years is paint prices interestingly enough.

You really auto stop basing your whole arguement on a few statements from a few bias and jaded people. ;)

[craltal]

Yes and they got there through the very works of people, who aren't able to put out products now.




Actually without the Ion, prices would be higher for less performance. It forced Kingman and ICD and others to put out a product with similar or better features at a lower price. Sounds like Capitalism working like it's supposed to...

[RRfireblade]

Yes and they got there through the very works of people, who aren't able to put out products.


How is there products out and available now by people unable to do that ? :tard:

[Lohman446]

Yes and they got there through the very works of people, who aren't able to put out products now.




I would like to point out:
Some one clarify what Tom means plz?


If I have to guess. TK no longer has enough interest in paintball (and is financially stable enough) to not have to take further risks in it to be satisfied.

[Automagsam]

You guys are dodging the question, please clarify this, and don't give me a cheap out answer, tell me what this means.


There is a ton going on in the industry right now with the whole NPS/PMI consolidation and yet another new round of lawsuits. My take on that is that its not worth any companies time to develop new products, its better to go sue someone for the money the old products are generating.

Especially this
yet another new round of lawsuits. My take on that is that its not worth any companies time to develop new products, its better to go sue someone for the money the old products are generating.

Until you touch on that, this conversation cannot continue.

[Lohman446]

You guys are dodging the question, please clarify this, and don't give me a cheap out answer, tell me what this means.



Especially this

Until you touch on that, this conversation cannot continue.

I have no clue what suits he is referring to. Perhaps you should ask the person who said it. And as to the idea that the conversation cannot continue? Don't be that conceited, as RRFireblade pointed out there has been new things made available to the paintball marker since those comments were made. Just because the risk/reward analysis does not fit TK does not mean it does not fit others out there.

[Automagsam]

I have no clue what suits he is referring to. Perhaps you should ask the person who said it. And as to the idea that the conversation cannot continue? Don't be that conceited, as RRFireblade pointed out there has been new things made available to the paintball marker since those comments were made. Just because the risk/reward analysis does not fit TK does not mean it does not fit others out there.
Ok once again another out....then what about this
My take on that is that its not worth any companies time to develop new products, its better to go sue someone for the money the old products are generating.
Why do you think Tom is saying this.
Oh and these comments by Tom, only made a week or two ago.

[Lohman446]

Ok once again another out....then what about this
Why do you think Tom is saying this.
Oh and these comments by Tom, only made a week or two ago.

Lets see, because the risk to reward ratio in the paintball market does not fit his personal goals at this time? I answered that. Tom is a smart guy, honest, fair, and intelligent. That being said, just because the paintball market does not suit him anymore does not mean its inherently evil. He is not the end all be all.

Show me the lawsuits. NPS sueing Draxxus over the Pulse? Considering it sounds like they are reaching a settlement I would say it was probably legitimate enough.

[Automagsam]

Lets see, because the risk to reward ratio in the paintball market does not fit his personal goals at this time? I answered that. Tom is a smart guy, honest, fair, and intelligent. That being said, just because the paintball market does not suit him anymore does not mean its inherently evil. He is not the end all be all.

Show me the lawsuits. NPS sueing Draxxus over the Pulse? Considering it sounds like they are reaching a settlement I would say it was probably legitimate enough.No no, I'm talking about Tom refering to how AGD is not putting out a new marker or anything, because of the lawsuits, he outright says and I quote
My take on that is that its not worth any companies time to develop new products, its better to go sue someone for the money the old products are generating.


You are avoiding that comment. He doesnt say that cause he has other interests right now, and I'm not denying that he does have other interests. I think Tom is brilliant, but you are ignoring what he said about the industry.

[RRfireblade]

Tom been making that same statement for the last 1-2 years. ;)

There are always some suit going on , and big changes going on in the industry. Been that way for 20 years now. It NEVER been a stable business , not now , not then , not ever.

This business changes faster than PC technology and has as more basis in Hype and Perception then maybe any other industry in the world. It's economy is based largely on the whims and attutudes of 12-16 year old children. How stable are thier thoughts ever going to be?

Maybe that explains some of it for you.

I can't nor would I ever , with all due respect to Tom (and I do respect him greatly) put stock in his business choices in the last few years. He made the choice long ago that he would prefer to stay out of the business till he felt comfortable taking a finacial risk in it again. I don't blame him for it either. Nowadays it takes big money to get ahead in this business , money AGD has not had in a long time and the way they are planning for the future, (not planning at all really) money they will never have IMO.

It true in any business , things are slow for you you can either sit back and die or take a risk and gain (maybe) .

The only guarantee is if you do nothing (AGD) you will fall behind everyone else.

Doesn't matter what industry your talking about, true in any.

[RRfireblade]

No no, I'm talking about Tom refering to how AGD is not putting out a new marker or anything, because of the lawsuits, he outright says and I quote
You are avoiding that comment. He doesnt say that cause he has other interests right now, and I'm not denying that he does have other interests. I think Tom is brilliant, but you are ignoring what he said about the industry.


Dude , his word is not the end all be all of paintball.

Look at all the new product out in the last year ? What do YOU think he was taking about ?

[Automagsam]

Tom been making that same statement for the last 1-2 years. ;)

There are always some suit going on , and big changes going on in the industry. Been that way for 20 years now. It NEVER been a stable business , not now , not then , not ever.

This business changes faster than PC technology and has as more basis in Hype and Perception then maybe any other industry in the world. It's economy is based largely on the whims and attutudes of 12-16 year old children. How stable are thier thoughts ever going to be?

Maybe that explains some of it for you.

I can't nor would I ever , with all due respect to Tom (and I do respect him greatly) put stock in his business choices in the last few years. He made the choice long ago that he would prefer to stay out of the business till he felt comfortable taking a finacial risk in it again. I don't blame him for it either. Nowadays it takes big money to get ahead in this business , money AGD has not had in a long time and the way they are planning for the future, (not planning at all really) money they will never have IMO.

It true in any business , things are slow for you you can either sit back and die or take a risk and gain (maybe) .

The only guarantee is if you do nothing (AGD) you will fall behind everyone else.

Doesn't matter what industry your talking about, true in any.
Ok let me ask you a question are companies through buisness, suing other companies to make money?

[RRfireblade]

Ok let me ask you a question are companies through buisness, suing other companies to make money?


I don't really know how to explain any of this any better for you.

What business are you in for yourself ? Just curious , no slam.

[Automagsam]

I don't really know how to explain any of this any better for you.

What business are you in for yourself ? Just curious , no slam.
answer the question.

[craltal]

No no, I'm talking about Tom refering to how AGD is not putting out a new marker or anything, because of the lawsuits, he outright says and I quote
You are avoiding that comment. He doesnt say that cause he has other interests right now, and I'm not denying that he does have other interests. I think Tom is brilliant, but you are ignoring what he said about the industry.

HE IS ONE MAN WHO HAS NOT BEEN DIRECTLY ASSOCIATED IN THE DEALINGS OF PAINTBALL FOR A FEW YEARS.

Stop thinking of TK as a deity and that every word out of his mouth is infallible. He may have quite a few more inside contacts than we do, but he does not know everything that is going on.

Just because Tom has moved on doesn't mean the paintball world is over and that everything is evil. Not everything is as cut and dry as you apparently think they are.

Maybe you should open your mind up to the opinions of others and stop hiding behind your "TK is awesome" shield.

[RRfireblade]

answer the question.


I asked you one. Are you afraid ??

Here's the other answer regardless.

There is NOT ONE SINGLE industry in the entire world of commerce that does not have someone sueing someone.

Not one single business in the entire world.

That will NEVER be a time when some one is not sueing some one.

There has NEVER in the history of paintball been a time where there was zero lawsiuts going on. Never.

[Automagsam]

HE IS ONE MAN WHO HAS NOT BEEN DIRECTLY ASSOCIATED IN THE DEALINGS OF PAINTBALL FOR A FEW YEARS.

Stop thinking of TK as a deity and that every word out of his mouth is infallible. He may have quite a few more inside contacts than we do, but he does not know everything that is going on.

Just because Tom has moved on doesn't mean the paintball world is over and that everything is evil. Not everything is as cut and dry as you apparently think they are.

Maybe you should open your mind up to the opinions of others and stop hiding behind your "TK is awesome" shield.
Well first off I never said I worshipped Tom K, I was simply qutoing him on the state of the Industry. Do you think he is wrong?


I asked you one. Are you afraid ??

Here's the other answer regardless.

There is NOT ONE SINGLE industry in the entire world of commerce that does not have someone sueing someone.

Not one single business in the entire world.

That will NEVER be a time when some one is not sueing some one.

There has NEVER in the history of paintball been a time where there was zero lawsiuts going on. Never.
I am not affraid you simply didn't answer my question before and instead asked me one. So you do agree about Tom Kaye's statement on the industry?

[Lohman446]

Ok let me ask you a question are companies through buisness, suing other companies to make money?

They are sueing others to protect there intellectual property rights. This is not just to make money. Imagine if you made a great product tomorrow, one that could make you live comfortably for your life, as well as your twenty employees, there familes etc that all depend on you.

Now imagine company B copies what you have, 90%. Do you not have duty to protect your rights for not only yourself, but your employees?

[Lohman446]

I am not affraid you simply didn't answer my question before and instead asked me one. So you do agree about Tom Kaye's statement on the industry?

No - because TK was making these statements a year ago and I can look at the new products that have been offered in the last year.

[RRfireblade]

I am not affraid you simply didn't answer my question before and instead asked me one. So you do agree about Tom Kaye's statement on the industry?

You don't answer any questions , you simple use someone elses answers as you own. ;) Then you change the question when you don't like the answers you get.

Yes , he is wrong IMO.

Most if not all of the companies in business today are making the majority of thier money developing and selling new products. I don't think there is even a question to that fact or any proof to the contrary.

[Automagsam]

No - because TK was making these statements a year ago and I can look at the new products that have been offered in the last year.
Yes but this quote is from a week or so ago, and thats fine, you think he is wrong, that is your opinion. This thread is to point out the turmoil of the industry no matter who is doing it, good or bad. If you don't think there is an issue, and I'm not saying the issue just started, I just personally believe it's progressively getting worse. Now others feel that the industry is improving, but that is their opinion.

[RRfireblade]

Yes but this quote is from a week or so ago, and thats fine, you think he is wrong, that is your opinion. This thread is to point out the turmoil of the industry no matter who is doing it, good or bad. If you don't think there is an issue, and I'm not saying the issue just started, I just personally believe it's progressively getting worse. Now others feel that the industry is improving, but that is their opinion.

You have not stated one single fact that proves your feelings other than stating other peoples opinions. That's the problem. :)

[AGD]

I will clarify,

There is a current round of lawsuits over the Pulse, there is an ongoing different suit between NPS and Diablo over their original paint distribution deal. There is another round of lawsuits over the Tippman look alikes. There is ANOTHER round of lawsuits getting ready to go, over other patent issues. Besides that there is a 24 million dollar lawsuit going on over the woman who was killed by the tank.

So ask yourself, for the size of this industry and the number of players, does this sound like a normal amount of legal activity? Ask yourself again how much does all this cost and where does the money come from? Has anyone ever told you its a good idea to sue people to make money? Or is it most likely a fight until you run out of cash?

You all as the player base only see what comes to the surface and all these comments are based on only that. There is a whole deep ocean of drown products that sank to the bottom never to see the light of day. They are there because its not a good business move to develop them in the current environment. I have seen BRILLIANT gun designs in prototype that disappeared out of fear. I have seen people come into this industry with money to spend but when they see the situation, they back out quietly. You all NEVER see this and don't see the loss to the industry that I do. The only one you ARE familiar with is me and while I get a continuous stream of requests to be involved, it is just not worth my time and effort.

Of all the paintball companies with financial horsepower, none are run by an engineering type. When you work with lawyers you get lawsuits, marketing guys market, financial guys make a return on investment. These are the people running paintball today. You can argue that there are a ton of new products on the market but if you look inside, its the same stuff under the hood. If it wasn't, you would not see lawsuits like the Pulse.

So it is my belief, that innovation is not a motivating factor in the paintball industry today. There may be a desire on the part of many, but the opportunity to do it without potential legal problems is small. As long as you see the 07 version of the 06 product, you can be pretty sure its the same product with a new look. Truly new products get a new name and a patent applied for tag. I haven't seen many of those lately.

AGD

[craltal]

Well first off I never said I worshipped Tom K, I was simply qutoing him on the state of the Industry. Do you think he is wrong?

Well, you subsequent posts seem to take his statement as the word of god.

It's one man's opinion. He does not have all of the facts, nobody does. As Jay said, he decided that he would rather dabble elsewhere than tie up resources in paintball. He even stated the he does not like the environment. Does this mean he's wrong for stepping away? No, it's a decision that he made believing it's in his best interest, not mine, not yours, not the paintball community in general. His.

I greatly respect what he has done for the technology of paintball, but that doesn't mean I believe as infallible truth every word he utters.

[dons NOMEX jumpsuit]
This is not directed at you, but this whole argument brings to mind an observation that I find disturbing. I truly believe the art of argument is dying and people don't look at both sides of a situation, judge the facts, and form their own opinions anymore. They regurgitate the opinions of the talking heads on TV, or the pulpit, or wherever.

[Automagsam]

I will clarify,

There is a current round of lawsuits over the Pulse, there is an ongoing different suit between NPS and Diablo over their original paint distribution deal. There is another round of lawsuits over the Tippman look alikes. There is ANOTHER round of lawsuits getting ready to go, over other patent issues. Besides that there is a 24 million dollar lawsuit going on over the woman who was killed by the tank.

So ask yourself, for the size of this industry and the number of players, does this sound like a normal amount of legal activity? Ask yourself again how much does all this cost and where does the money come from? Has anyone ever told you its a good idea to sue people to make money? Or is it most likely a fight until you run out of cash?

You all as the player base only see what comes to the surface and all these comments are based on only that. There is a whole deep ocean of drown products that sank to the bottom never to see the light of day. They are there because its not a good business move to develop them in the current environment. I have seen BRILLIANT gun designs in prototype that disappeared out of fear. I have seen people come into this industry with money to spend but when they see the situation, they back out quietly. You all NEVER see this and don't see the loss to the industry that I do. The only one you ARE familiar with is me and while I get a continuous stream of requests to be involved, it is just not worth my time and effort.

Of all the paintball companies with financial horsepower, none are run by an engineering type. When you work with lawyers you get lawsuits, marketing guys market, financial guys make a return on investment. These are the people running paintball today. You can argue that there are a ton of new products on the market but if you look inside, its the same stuff under the hood. If it wasn't, you would not see lawsuits like the Pulse.

So it is my belief, that innovation is not a motivating factor in the paintball industry today. There may be a desire on the part of many, but the opportunity to do it without potential legal problems is small. As long as you see the 07 version of the 06 product, you can be pretty sure its the same product with a new look. Truly new products get a new name and a patent applied for tag. I haven't seen many of those lately.

AGD
Oh and as a student Tom is one of my role models tho.

[RRfireblade]

Tom , trust me some of see it just fine.

I've also seen it be like that for long time. Theres always risk , it always take money theres always bridges to cross.

The difference here is you come from back when the industry wasn't even and industry and was held together be a handfull of small family based (generally) business treating the sport like a cool new hobby that they might could make a living in.

Now it's a full fledged business and an 'Industry' like any other and along with that all the typical conflicts. You see it every where else and it's nothing really new here. Only now in a larger scale porportionate to the current size of paintball now as an industry on it's own.

[RRfireblade]

Nothings going to 'not' change or go back to the way it was.

Funny thing is everyone loved the growth when it was good for them and they didn't have to change thier practices. Now all of a sudden , you don;t like the things that come along with it.

That's life and business in all it's glory. :)

[Lohman446]

I will clarify,

There is a current round of lawsuits over the Pulse, there is an ongoing different suit between NPS and Diablo over their original paint distribution deal. There is another round of lawsuits over the Tippman look alikes. There is ANOTHER round of lawsuits getting ready to go, over other patent issues. Besides that there is a 24 million dollar lawsuit going on over the woman who was killed by the tank.

So ask yourself, for the size of this industry and the number of players, does this sound like a normal amount of legal activity? Ask yourself again how much does all this cost and where does the money come from? Has anyone ever told you its a good idea to sue people to make money? Or is it most likely a fight until you run out of cash?

You all as the player base only see what comes to the surface and all these comments are based on only that. There is a whole deep ocean of drown products that sank to the bottom never to see the light of day. They are there because its not a good business move to develop them in the current environment. I have seen BRILLIANT gun designs in prototype that disappeared out of fear. I have seen people come into this industry with money to spend but when they see the situation, they back out quietly. You all NEVER see this and don't see the loss to the industry that I do. The only one you ARE familiar with is me and while I get a continuous stream of requests to be involved, it is just not worth my time and effort.

Of all the paintball companies with financial horsepower, none are run by an engineering type. When you work with lawyers you get lawsuits, marketing guys market, financial guys make a return on investment. These are the people running paintball today. You can argue that there are a ton of new products on the market but if you look inside, its the same stuff under the hood. If it wasn't, you would not see lawsuits like the Pulse.

So it is my belief, that innovation is not a motivating factor in the paintball industry today. There may be a desire on the part of many, but the opportunity to do it without potential legal problems is small. As long as you see the 07 version of the 06 product, you can be pretty sure its the same product with a new look. Truly new products get a new name and a patent applied for tag. I haven't seen many of those lately.

AGD

The only thing that concerns me right now is the amount of patents being "sat" on. My undersatnding of the Pulse lawsuit is it was not over the feed system (which seemed awfully similar) but over the RF system, something that was not even readily available or known to the general paintball world. That at its base concerns me, as good ideas are simply being patented and set aside for later profitability.

When you invented the automag you had a need of the player in mind: A reliable semi-automatic paintball marker.

When you introduced HPA (or MPA) you had a need in mind: A consistant air source to feed the automag.

When you introduced the warp you had a specific need in mind: To move the hopper off the marker, and introduce a force feed system to the paintball world - I assume to help alleviate chops in markers.

The problem with innovation now. If we do not change something fundamentally we have what we need. Markers capable of firing for us up to the speed limit currently imposed, air systems to feed them, and hoppers to feed them. The pulse seemed to just be an improvement over the Empire, it was not innovative.

What need is there in paintball today? A tankless marker? Possibly, but as the warp has taught us things need to be a clear improvement, and we are not sure that we would really like a tankless marker as players. The fact of the matter is a tankless marker already exists, and if the above mentioned lawsuit makes it an economic liability to have HPA or CO2 tanks due to insurance, we might see a need made here.

Without a need in paintball what can a company truly inovate?

[craltal]

Yes, there are a number of legal actions that are ongoing, but I think that is more of a factor of our culture.
There is so much fear that lawyers are involved with everything now. The culture that TK started building marker in is gone. It's not specific to paintball, it a systemic problem that permeates our culture in general.

Anybody remember the kid who placed a freshly filled 20oz CO2 tank next to the baseboard heater in his room and was surprised when it exploded? Remember his mom's reaction? Seeing if the shop that filled it or the manufacturer was responsible so she could sue somebody?

[Automagsam]

Nothings going to 'not' change or go back to the way it was.

Funny thing is everyone loved the growth when it was good for them and they didn't have to change thier practices. Now all of a sudden , you don;t like the things that come along with it.

That's life and business in all it's glory. :) Yes but there is a quote "The only thing nessecary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. " Edmund Burke

[snoopay700]

Only Tom knows.

A TON of new products and markers have come out since that statement. All in at lower than ever pricing , all surpassing performance and bang for the buck by a long shot from previous product.

New loaders, entry level markers , marker upgrades . . .


What else is there ?

Only thing that hasn't really changed in the last 1-2 years is paint prices interestingly enough.

You really auto stop basing your whole arguement on a few statements from a few bias and jaded people. ;)
I'm going to have to edit this because i haven't read all of the way through, but a bunch of new markers have come out since last week? If you don't believe me look in sam's other thread with AGD right in the title.

[Lohman446]

Yes but there is a quote "The only thing nessecary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. " Edmund Burke

Protecting ones established intellectual property is not evil... why can you not seem to grasp that?

[craltal]

Yes but there is a quote "The only thing nessecary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. " Edmund Burke


Now you're throwing out "intellectual" quotes? Oh brother. Please join us in the real world, not the glorified halls of academia you apparently are holed up in.

[Automagsam]

Protecting ones established intellectual property is not evil... why can you not seem to grasp that?
But protecting ones established intellectual property is exactly what companies like AGD AKA, and others now are doing, it is the the other companies that are using dirty but legal tactics to make money. Plus it is a quote, in other words I'm saying, if you sit back and just are like "oh its been like this for a while oh well what can we do", you are ultimately helping the problem.

[shartley]

I will clarify,

There is a current round of lawsuits over the Pulse, there is an ongoing different suit between NPS and Diablo over their original paint distribution deal. There is another round of lawsuits over the Tippman look alikes. There is ANOTHER round of lawsuits getting ready to go, over other patent issues. Besides that there is a 24 million dollar lawsuit going on over the woman who was killed by the tank.

So ask yourself, for the size of this industry and the number of players, does this sound like a normal amount of legal activity? Ask yourself again how much does all this cost and where does the money come from? Has anyone ever told you its a good idea to sue people to make money? Or is it most likely a fight until you run out of cash?

You all as the player base only see what comes to the surface and all these comments are based on only that. There is a whole deep ocean of drown products that sank to the bottom never to see the light of day. They are there because its not a good business move to develop them in the current environment. I have seen BRILLIANT gun designs in prototype that disappeared out of fear. I have seen people come into this industry with money to spend but when they see the situation, they back out quietly. You all NEVER see this and don't see the loss to the industry that I do. The only one you ARE familiar with is me and while I get a continuous stream of requests to be involved, it is just not worth my time and effort.

Of all the paintball companies with financial horsepower, none are run by an engineering type. When you work with lawyers you get lawsuits, marketing guys market, financial guys make a return on investment. These are the people running paintball today. You can argue that there are a ton of new products on the market but if you look inside, its the same stuff under the hood. If it wasn't, you would not see lawsuits like the Pulse.

So it is my belief, that innovation is not a motivating factor in the paintball industry today. There may be a desire on the part of many, but the opportunity to do it without potential legal problems is small. As long as you see the 07 version of the 06 product, you can be pretty sure its the same product with a new look. Truly new products get a new name and a patent applied for tag. I haven't seen many of those lately.

AGDI have seen the same things said about the auto industry, computer industry, gaming industry, heck you name it. I am not saying what you lay out is not factual, but I disagree with how it is affecting the overall market and future of the sport. I see the sport growing and players getting great products. I don’t see a doom and gloom where the industry is about to implode and no business can either advance or make a profit.

I will also point out that every industry has the same types of folks willing to invest but then decide not to for many reasons. As others have stated, paintball is now entering the age of “real” business IMHO. I have seen things in paintball run as if no one cared and things done that have made me wonder how the industry even survived as long as it did. Now we see things being done like all other industries. Sure, not everyone will like it, or even survive though it, but that is the way business works. And I think we all know that paintball businesses have come and go throughout the history of paintball. Some times they dropped off like flies in a bug spray mist. Are there any of us who don’t know of at least a hand full of paintball businesses that have gone under over the years? And how many of them were because someone sued them?

I guess this just goes to show things look the way we want them to look. And that applies to everyone from the player on up to those some seem to worship. But no one person has the defacto answer to it all, nor defacto opinion. As the saying goes though... "Truth is how we perceive it to be."

[craltal]

I'm officially done with this thread. Nothing we are saying is getting through. I love playing the devil's advocate myself, but even you have to realize that your position is tenuous at best, especially when compared to how the real world operates. There is nothing that you can say that will help sway anyone's opinion. Tom's comments didn't even help your cause because you are having trouble seeing beyond the vision you have in your mind.

[Lohman446]

But protecting ones established intellectual property is exactly what companies like AGD AKA, and others now are doing, it is the the other companies that are using dirty but legal tactics to make money. Plus it is a quote, in other words I'm saying, if you sit back and just are like "oh its been like this for a while oh well what can we do", you are ultimately helping the problem.

How is AGD or AKA protecting any intellectual properties?

[BigEvil]

How is AGD or AKA protecting any intellectual properties?

If I recall, AGD does have a number of patents.. I dont know about AKA.

[teufelhunden]

I will clarify,

There is a current round of lawsuits over the Pulse, there is an ongoing different suit between NPS and Diablo over their original paint distribution deal. There is another round of lawsuits over the Tippman look alikes. There is ANOTHER round of lawsuits getting ready to go, over other patent issues. Besides that there is a 24 million dollar lawsuit going on over the woman who was killed by the tank.

So ask yourself, for the size of this industry and the number of players, does this sound like a normal amount of legal activity? Ask yourself again how much does all this cost and where does the money come from? Has anyone ever told you its a good idea to sue people to make money? Or is it most likely a fight until you run out of cash?

You all as the player base only see what comes to the surface and all these comments are based on only that. There is a whole deep ocean of drown products that sank to the bottom never to see the light of day. They are there because its not a good business move to develop them in the current environment. I have seen BRILLIANT gun designs in prototype that disappeared out of fear. I have seen people come into this industry with money to spend but when they see the situation, they back out quietly. You all NEVER see this and don't see the loss to the industry that I do. The only one you ARE familiar with is me and while I get a continuous stream of requests to be involved, it is just not worth my time and effort.

Of all the paintball companies with financial horsepower, none are run by an engineering type. When you work with lawyers you get lawsuits, marketing guys market, financial guys make a return on investment. These are the people running paintball today. You can argue that there are a ton of new products on the market but if you look inside, its the same stuff under the hood. If it wasn't, you would not see lawsuits like the Pulse.

So it is my belief, that innovation is not a motivating factor in the paintball industry today. There may be a desire on the part of many, but the opportunity to do it without potential legal problems is small. As long as you see the 07 version of the 06 product, you can be pretty sure its the same product with a new look. Truly new products get a new name and a patent applied for tag. I haven't seen many of those lately.

AGD


I can't speak to much regarding this post except the part about who's running businesses in this little game called paintball...

Is there a problem with businessmen running businesses? You imply that the lack of "engineering type" people at the top of the bigtime companies is what's causing what you perceive to be a lack of technological progress in the industry. As a result, this question arises in my mind: What do you see paintball as, to what extent, and what do you base it on?

Now, I'm one of those financial guys, however that was not always the case. I don't play anymore, but I still troll the forums from time to time and my tattoo place is right by a paintball place, so I stay kinda up to date. I see things about guns like the Mini and etc. and really don't think "wow this is a stagnant industry." I see the paintball section in Wal-Mart and Dick's expanding. I remember flipping through the channels quite recently and seeing some SP sponsored event with a bunch of pro teams playing Xball on ESPN at times like 5PM. Is this all wrong? Would this have been accomplished without the marketing people getting the product that is the game into the public eye? Or how about the legal guys making paintball into a legitimate industry? Or even us dorky money guys counting the beans and sending the money to R&D and legal?

It's kind of funny-- business is one of the only things that people without a business background regularly try to succeed in. I'm an accountant; I'm not about to jump into the shop and start designing paintball guns or claim I can make a weather prediction. But the reverse seems to happen a lot-- sorry, Tom, you're not a businessman. I agree with Fireblade; I wouldn't have invested in your company any time after the mid/late nineties. However, a company like Smart Parts, with some suits at the helm, that's something that might've been worth a shot.

I can't think of too many big name companies where someone is at the helm that doesn't have a business background [bear in mind the "helm" is corporate management; being a board member, even chairman, doesn't mean you're running the company]. Google, I think, but they've a sizable group of businessmen watching their back. Does Toyota have an engineer making the calls? Starbucks? Microsoft? Nah. Neither should anybody wanting to compete in paintball.

[Lohman446]

If I recall, AGD does have a number of patents.. I dont know about AKA.

They do, or at least TK does. But are they protecting them?

[snoopay700]

Of all the paintball companies with financial horsepower, none are run by an engineering type. When you work with lawyers you get lawsuits, marketing guys market, financial guys make a return on investment. These are the people running paintball today. You can argue that there are a ton of new products on the market but if you look inside, its the same stuff under the hood. If it wasn't, you would not see lawsuits like the Pulse.

So it is my belief, that innovation is not a motivating factor in the paintball industry today. There may be a desire on the part of many, but the opportunity to do it without potential legal problems is small. As long as you see the 07 version of the 06 product, you can be pretty sure its the same product with a new look. Truly new products get a new name and a patent applied for tag. I haven't seen many of those lately.

AGD
:clap:

This is what i've been saying, the current state of the industry is stopping new markers from coming out. What is the difference between the 05 angel and the 06 angel? Nothing, except a few new bells and whistles that do ulitmately nothing. They aren't the only company to do this, but if i were to list teh ones that do that would be almost every company that is putting out "new" markers. The mini is new, has some new ideas, but is ultimately not all that much of an innovation.

I also fail to see your reasoning of how "well other businesses sue, so it's not a big deal that it happens here." It is true that bad things can spread if you do nothing. I'm not saying that it's bad to market, but just make it truthful (again, ideally, i know this will still probably never happen) but it is horrible when lawyers run the business.

Oh, and Lohman, they aren't "protecting" them because they don't need to and also it's just not worth the money to them to make a big stink about it. They are the remains of truly noble companies, and unfortunately they are fading.

[Lohman446]

:clap:

This is what i've been saying, the current state of the industry is stopping new markers from coming out. What is the difference between the 05 angel and the 06 angel? Nothing, except a few new bells and whistles that do ulitmately nothing. They aren't the only company to do this, but if i were to list teh ones that do that would be almost every company that is putting out "new" markers. The mini is new, has some new ideas, but is ultimately not all that much of an innovation.

I also fail to see your reasoning of how "well other businesses sue, so it's not a big deal that it happens here." It is true that bad things can spread if you do nothing. I'm not saying that it's bad to market, but just make it truthful (again, ideally, i know this will still probably never happen) but it is horrible when lawyers run the business.

Oh, and Lohman, they aren't "protecting" them because they don't need to and also it's just not worth the money to them to make a big stink about it. They are the remains of truly noble companies, and unfortunately they are fading.

:rolleyes: They are the remains of companies of an old era in paintball, and again you can see that in most industries.

What would a new marker bring to the table?

[BigEvil]

They do, or at least TK does. But are they protecting them?

I am not sure... if they do or if they even want to.

[snoopay700]

:rolleyes: They are the remains of companies of an old era in paintball, and again you can see that in most industries.

What would a new marker bring to the table?
What wouldn't a new marker bring? Hell, a new marker that is actually innovative (like the rt valve was over the classic valve, or the cocker was over the pump, etc etc) could bring a lot to the table. More efficiency, better quality, faster recharge, better consistency, things i can't even begin to imagine (hell, we might even see a mech that has a tirgger as light and short as an electric that isn't pnuematic). But then again, you know, i mean i guess there's no point to further innovation. I mean i'm sure you'd be satisfied if we still had cars that got 15 miles to the gallon (which was supposed to be the top and we ad reached the peak of innovation at that point) that were throwing more toxins into the air and worsening globabl warming. I mean i don't see any problem with that either. :rolleyes:

[Lohman446]

What wouldn't a new marker bring? Hell, a new marker that is actually innovative (like the rt valve was over the classic valve, or the cocker was over the pump, etc etc) could bring a lot to the table. More efficiency, better quality, faster recharge, better consistency, things i can't even begin to imagine (hell, we might even see a mech that has a tirgger as light and short as an electric that isn't pnuematic). But then again, you know, i mean i guess there's no point to further innovation. I mean i'm sure you'd be satisfied if we still had cars that got 15 miles to the gallon (which was supposed to be the top and we ad reached the peak of innovation at that point) that were throwing more toxins into the air and worsening globabl warming. I mean i don't see any problem with that either. :rolleyes:

Right now we have markers that far exceed the cap imposed either by rules or human limitations.

We have markers that last for years.

We have markers that can get through incredible amounts of paint on a 45/45 (more than the vast majority carry).

What are you going to gain with a new marker that players will care about? Innovation without marketability is worthless, at least to a for profit company.

Especially if, after doing all that innovation, others are going to push in on your intellectual property that you spent years and $$ to come up with, and if you protect it players are going to whine about it.

[snoopay700]

Right now we have markers that far exceed the cap imposed either by rules or human limitations.

We have markers that last for years.

We have markers that can get through incredible amounts of paint on a 45/45 (more than the vast majority carry).

What are you going to gain with a new marker that players will care about? Innovation without marketability is worthless, at least to a for profit company.

Especially if, after doing all that innovation, others are going to push in on your intellectual property that you spent years and $$ to come up with, and if you protect it players are going to whine about it.
Ok, yeah, we have what seems like all we need NOW, however like i said, there could be things beyond our wildest dreams that someone has thought of that would revolutionize paintball, yet they're afraid to market it because of the condition the industry is in. No matter how advanced anything is, there is ALWAYS room for improvement.

[Lohman446]

Ok, yeah, we have what seems like all we need NOW, however like i said, there could be things beyond our wildest dreams that someone has thought of that would revolutionize paintball, yet they're afraid to market it because of the condition the industry is in. No matter how advanced anything is, there is ALWAYS room for improvement.

If I innovate I will have to protect it with patents (as it will be an innovation).

If I protect those patents players will whine about it.

Why innovate? You cannot complain about lack of innovation, and complain about protection of past innovations in the same argument, not logically.

[snoopay700]

If I innovate I will have to protect it with patents (as it will be an innovation).

If I protect those patents players will whine about it.

Why innovate? You cannot complain about lack of innovation, and complain about protection of past innovations in the same argument, not logically.
Ok, after this i'm just not going to respond to you because you obviously aren't listening to anything i'm saying. Trying to make blanket patents is bad.

Protecting patents is ok, but going off on some technicality is not, many companies are doing this more for money.

Innovation is limited because people are afraid one aspect of it might be a little too much like something on marker b, so they would rather not get sued than put out a new product.

You obviously haven't been paying attention to my arguments.

[Lohman446]

Ok, after this i'm just not going to respond to you because you obviously aren't listening to anything i'm saying. Trying to make blanket patents is bad.

Protecting patents is ok, but going off on some technicality is not, many companies are doing this more for money.

Innovation is limited because people are afraid one aspect of it might be a little too much like something on marker b, so they would rather not get sued than put out a new product.

You obviously haven't been paying attention to my arguments.

Electronics into a marker was a big innovation, would you not agree with that?

[latches109]

Ok let me ask you a question are companies through buisness, suing other companies to make money?

really how much did they make? Who made what? Show me some real data not just wild-eyed obligatory comments with flawed economic views. You clearly miss many objectives of patent lawsuits due to your lack of knowledge in the subject.

[RRfireblade]

I will clarify,



Of all the paintball companies with financial horsepower, none are run by an engineering type. When you work with lawyers you get lawsuits, marketing guys market, financial guys make a return on investment. These are the people running paintball today. You can argue that there are a ton of new products on the market but if you look inside, its the same stuff under the hood. If it wasn't, you would not see lawsuits like the Pulse.

So it is my belief, that innovation is not a motivating factor in the paintball industry today. There may be a desire on the part of many, but the opportunity to do it without potential legal problems is small. As long as you see the 07 version of the 06 product, you can be pretty sure its the same product with a new look. Truly new products get a new name and a patent applied for tag. I haven't seen many of those lately.

AGD

Pretty close minded and jaded there as I would have expected. Shame. :(

Yeah , horsepower comes from finance. But without the product , innovation and engineering there would be nothing to fight over. Where are those patents being fought over coming from ? Check the dates , most or not that old. Where is the product coming from ? You've insulted alot of people in the 'industry' by claiming there isn't anyone engineering product in paintball anymore. Just because it's people you no longer 'know' doesn't mean they aren't there. I'd like to see a finance guy stick a whole Timmy in a single tube and make it work. :)

Under the hood of every marker is innovation and technology from year to year. It's not alway going to be landmark. Sometimes it a re-engineer to simplify production or minimize cost. That's why there are so many high quality , high performance markers out now under $400. At this point , many companies are also satisfied with thier share of the market and prefer to focus on thier specific nitche. Dye and spoolers , WGP and Cockers , BL/Timmy and Rammed poppets , SP and thier spooler ,etc. There are only so many ways to fire a paintball :) and then you have to have the means to produce the product if it's even practical to do so. I know much of what Toms talking about , DW and OTB I know have shown him marker designs , but neither of those failed for anything other than a means to produce. That's just business anywhere. Hundreds of great ides never make for one reason or another. It's not alway evil intent. ;) Mike Quinn and his Patented Mq valve . . . where is it now ? Finances. . . that's what happens when your engineer handles the finances.

Anywho . . .

This thread went arond a whole lot of nothing really.

The comments that started it and still hit the point IMO is little more than the 'Lecture' posted is little more than an uniformed , one sided and bias rant with little or no basis of any substantial fact.

I leave my last comment at that. Good day all. :)

[Tao]

The way it has slowed progress is exactly as Tom said for some, which is they're afraid of getting sued so they don't make anything new. The other reason is because they've got a marker that they've convinced people is the best (most companies) so they just refurbish it and sell it the following year as new, yet there have been no new innovations.

Pnuemags are a bit different because those are made by modders, not companies. Anyway, there is a patent on pnuemags, Pro Team Products has one and i believe Deadly Wind (if it's someone else correct me) has a patent on a different pnuematic design. The difference here is that Tom can't and won't make a new mag based off of this, because again, teh lawsuit problem comes up (ptp is pretty known for lawsuits in this area i believe). The only reason people are allowed to make them is because they aren't selling it as a product, and i'm not sure if the design is different or not.

Again, like i said, it stops progress by fear and if they did get their blanket patent passed it would stop other companies from making electric markers (after a while i'm sure most companies would stop) so it would be a monopoly. The fact that they even attempted this is contemptable enough. Also, what if you make up a design and you make a prototype, but you find out one aspect of it might infringe a patent or something, you're then risking a lawsuit because that is what people in this industry have led to.

Anyway, sp didn't get the patent, but they tried to get it after electrics had been on the market for a while. It wasn't their design, but they wanted to create a monopoly so they would have the lowest prices yet still make a very decent profit. Also, i don't know how true that whole thing about if something becomes popular enough and used widely enough is true, because there was actually a guy not too far from where i live who found out that there was no patent on the wing nut, even though it had been used for ages, so he asked a patent lawyer if he could patent it and he actually was granted the patent and now gets a few extra thousand per month or few months or something like that. I mean he patented a product that was already in wide use, so i question the validity of your claim.

Well it should be up to the patent office to have things in order to make it as easy as possible as possible for people to search to see if an invention has already been done.

I am surprised someone would have got a patent for wingnuts when not even inventing them, if the orriginal inventor is still alive he can patent it (and rip the other patent away) with no problem..at last the way the system is supposed to work in the US.

I might be confusing copyright laws with patent laws with the "public domain" thing...

...on a side note...I wonder if anyone has a pantent on electronic trippers in Canada....different system first come first serve :P

[Tao]

I will clarify,

There is a current round of lawsuits over the Pulse, there is an ongoing different suit between NPS and Diablo over their original paint distribution deal. There is another round of lawsuits over the Tippman look alikes. There is ANOTHER round of lawsuits getting ready to go, over other patent issues. Besides that there is a 24 million dollar lawsuit going on over the woman who was killed by the tank.

So ask yourself, for the size of this industry and the number of players, does this sound like a normal amount of legal activity? Ask yourself again how much does all this cost and where does the money come from? Has anyone ever told you its a good idea to sue people to make money? Or is it most likely a fight until you run out of cash?

You all as the player base only see what comes to the surface and all these comments are based on only that. There is a whole deep ocean of drown products that sank to the bottom never to see the light of day. They are there because its not a good business move to develop them in the current environment. I have seen BRILLIANT gun designs in prototype that disappeared out of fear. I have seen people come into this industry with money to spend but when they see the situation, they back out quietly. You all NEVER see this and don't see the loss to the industry that I do. The only one you ARE familiar with is me and while I get a continuous stream of requests to be involved, it is just not worth my time and effort.

Of all the paintball companies with financial horsepower, none are run by an engineering type. When you work with lawyers you get lawsuits, marketing guys market, financial guys make a return on investment. These are the people running paintball today. You can argue that there are a ton of new products on the market but if you look inside, its the same stuff under the hood. If it wasn't, you would not see lawsuits like the Pulse.

So it is my belief, that innovation is not a motivating factor in the paintball industry today. There may be a desire on the part of many, but the opportunity to do it without potential legal problems is small. As long as you see the 07 version of the 06 product, you can be pretty sure its the same product with a new look. Truly new products get a new name and a patent applied for tag. I haven't seen many of those lately.

AGD

Thats a shame....what else can be said?

I guess we can all hold some hope that you are still out there and may return when the skies clear :)

[RRfireblade]

Well it should be up to the patent office to have things in order to make it as easy as possible as possible for people to search to see if an invention has already been done.

I am surprised someone would have got a patent for wingnuts when not even inventing them, if the orriginal inventor is still alive he can patent it (and rip the other patent away) with no problem..at last the way the system is supposed to work in the US.

I might be confusing copyright laws with patent laws with the "public domain" thing...

...on a side note...I wonder if anyone has a pantent on electronic trippers in Canada....different system first come first serve :P


Should be but not. Here's the Patent rub . . . well there are many really but . . .

But say your a small company (this is a true story) and Patent a great idea. Many big companies have departments whose only job is to scan the USPTO for new product ,evaluate the risk and use the patent art for the rip off. They are just waiting for the grant to hit. Happens all the time.

I know more that a few engineers that rufuse to patent anything and prefer to take a chance with out in the hopes that by the time they get ripped , they've already taped the market or have the design sold. Thereby giving no advance peeks and them a small headstart.

Then you have the USPTO full of a variety of examiners of vastly differing skill levels. They can place your idea anywhere , against any field of invention they feel applies (often it doesn't) and may or may not do the neccessary research to confidently approve the grant. We've been C&D by other companies holding patents on product we've been biulding for years before thier patent because and examiner did a half *** job. Pretty much how SP got theirs built up as it is. It's a crap shoot and once it's granted there's nothig you can do against the Govnt. There are only a handful of Patent attornies in the US even qualified to take a wrongfull granting to court against the USPTO and to my knowledge, I dont think it's ever been done.

[Automagsam]

Pretty close minded and jaded there as I would have expected. Shame. :(

Yeah , horsepower comes from finance. But without the product , innovation and engineering there would be nothing to fight over. Where are those patents being fought over coming from ? Check the dates , most or not that old. Where is the product coming from ? You've insulted alot of people in the 'industry' by claiming there isn't anyone engineering product in paintball anymore. Just because it's people you no longer 'know' doesn't mean they aren't there. I'd like to see a finance guy stick a whole Timmy in a single tube and make it work. :)

Under the hood of every marker is innovation and technology from year to year. It's not alway going to be landmark. Sometimes it a re-engineer to simplify production or minimize cost. That's why there are so many high quality , high performance markers out now under $400. At this point , many companies are also satisfied with thier share of the market and prefer to focus on thier specific nitche. Dye and spoolers , WGP and Cockers , BL/Timmy and Rammed poppets , SP and thier spooler ,etc. There are only so many ways to fire a paintball :) and then you have to have the means to produce the product if it's even practical to do so. I know much of what Toms talking about , DW and OTB I know have shown him marker designs , but neither of those failed for anything other than a means to produce. That's just business anywhere. Hundreds of great ides never make for one reason or another. It's not alway evil intent. ;) Mike Quinn and his Patented Mq valve . . . where is it now ? Finances. . . that's what happens when your engineer handles the finances.

Anywho . . .

This thread went arond a whole lot of nothing really.

The comments that started it and still hit the point IMO is little more than the 'Lecture' posted is little more than an uniformed , one sided and bias rant with little or no basis of any substantial fact.

I leave my last comment at that. Good day all. :)
Wait your calling what Tom said close minded?

[AGD]

Pretty close minded and jaded there as I would have expected. Shame. :(

"You've insulted alot of people in the 'industry' by claiming there isn't anyone engineering product in paintball anymore."



If your going to call me closed minded at least make your rebuttal accurate. I said people who RUN the companies are not engineer types.


Yeah , horsepower comes from finance. But without the product , innovation and engineering there would be nothing to fight over.

Then with this logic when we had the biggest variety of products and the most innovation, we should have also had the most legal battles. In my opinion the greatest innovation was in the early nineties and we had few legal issues.


Under the hood of every marker is innovation and technology from year to year. It's not alway going to be landmark. Sometimes it a re-engineer to simplify production or minimize cost.

If you feel that simplifying production and minimizing costs represent innovation then I can see why your happy. Perhaps I am old school here and its a good thing I am retired.


I know much of what Toms talking about , DW and OTB I know have shown him marker designs...

WOW, I am completely surprised you would say this with authority. Not only are you completely wrong, it further illustrates my point that the paintball player only sees the surface of the water.



one sided and bias rant with little or no basis of any substantial fact.

If this is the opinion of the general paintball public then the industry is in good hands. Considering Smart Parts was the object of the biggest hate movement ever in paintball and today reins as one of the industries fastest growing companies, your opinions could very well represent the intelligence of the average player.

AGD

[RRfireblade]

If your going to call me closed minded at least make your rebuttal accurate. I said people who RUN the companies are not engineer types.

I agreed with that , large successful business' are rarely run by engineer "types". They do far better being run by those how understand all aspects of business and how to make a gain on an investment. If you let an engineer 'type' run the business then your not in business for long. I stand on my statement of you being close minded. You only see the glass half empty , no possibilities for triumph , only darkness and disaster in the sport. There was a time when some might have called you a visionary , where is that vision now ?

Then with this logic when we had the biggest variety of products and the most innovation, we should have also had the most legal battles. In my opinion the greatest innovation was in the early nineties and we had few legal issues.

Sure , it was MUCH easier back then. Paintball was still largely a grass roots bases sport run by small companies who in many cases , paintball was not even thier primary business. You didn't even know what anyone else was working on till they showed up with it at an event. Now the info gets passed around on the net faster then you can say USPTO. Innovation was far easier back then too , the sport was wide open and "innovation" often came from simply the porting over of existing technology and product from other related fields. It's alot easier to be innovative when your looking at a blank slate. You know there was alot more innovation in the automotive field back in the 1900s too. :D

If you feel that simplifying production and minimizing costs represent innovation then I can see why your happy. Perhaps I am old school here and its a good thing I am retired.

I suppose you have the right to feel that innovation is only limited to your own interpretation of it. Pretty open minded there. I suppose simplicity of design and efficiency of manufacture in order to lower retail pricing and gain larger market share have no merit. Your right , good thing you are retired . . . it was going to happen anyway with that frame of thought. :)


, I am completely surprised you would say this with authority. Not only are you completely wrong, it further illustrates my point that the paintball player only sees the surface of the water.

Oh , I didn't mean to say 'much' in the statement , should've been more like 'of'. The point was that there are reasons beyond SP that markers haven't made it to market. Those were some just examples. In any case I was to understand you had knowledge of the DW marker and how it functions , if not then a stand corrected , as for the OTB , I was at the event when Josh went off to show it to you to calm his concerns about his design similarities to the Mag valve. Hmm , that's a wierd one. :) 'Nother FYI , I''ve been a little more than just a player for a while.

If this is the opinion of the general paintball public then the industry is in good hands. Considering Smart Parts was the object of the biggest hate movement ever in paintball and today reins as one of the industries fastest growing companies, your opinions could very well represent the intelligence of the average player.

I thought you had learned your lessons about how the internet relates to real life here on these forums. Guess not. Probably 95% of the SP bashing never made off the net. I'm out there and was out there then at events and Tournys and at the shows and I guess you'll be suprised to know the vast majority of the paintball public (Parents alike)didn't have a clue what it was all about, many still don't. An internet forum is a pretty poor way to gauge the public at large , just a little fyi. The rest of my statement was in regard to the validity of the lecture. One typically expects statements and opinions to be backed up by a little more than 'He said ,she saids ' gathered up from a paintball forum.

Nice slam on my intelligence tho , didn't expect someone of your high moral fortitude to go there. Guess you showed me again. ;)


AGD

:cheers:

[Lohman446]

Then with this logic when we had the biggest variety of products and the most innovation, we should have also had the most legal battles. In my opinion the greatest innovation was in the early nineties and we had few legal issues.


I don't think there is a lot of disagreement here. It was a time when the sport was experiencing incredible growth, the companies supplying it were not so much competing with each other as working together to build a bigger pie, and there were far less patents being enforced to cause legal issues. The companies were not big enough to feel that it was economically viable to protect patents in court - a guess based on your response to the Colonial.

However, as big business practices got involved, right around the time of a rapid slow down in growth, it is not surprising to see business practices based around large business in a smaller growth industry. We basically came out of a mom and pop manufacturing community with incredible growth to a big business community with mediocre growth in the span of two years. There were bound to be drastic changes.

[shartley]

I don't think there is a lot of disagreement here. It was a time when the sport was experiencing incredible growth, the companies supplying it were not so much competing with each other as working together to build a bigger pie, and there were far less patents being enforced to cause legal issues. The companies were not big enough to feel that it was economically viable to protect patents in court - a guess based on your response to the Colonial.

However, as big business practices got involved, right around the time of a rapid slow down in growth, it is not surprising to see business practices based around large business in a smaller growth industry. We basically came out of a mom and pop manufacturing community with incredible growth to a big business community with mediocre growth in the span of two years. There were bound to be drastic changes.
Agreed. But I would bet more products are still being sold now than were sold in the early 90’s as well. There is a much larger customer base now than then, and there are also more products available to customers. So for some folks to act like it is doom and gloom is not correct IMHO. We have just switched business models, for good or bad. But that does not mean the industry is grinding to a halt and the sky is falling.

I see businesses of all sizes both being hurt and benefiting from the change. That is the way of business. But I don’t see the sport going anywhere. And as long as you have the sport you will need businesses to support it.

ADDED:
Also, there are some people who believe that one person can do it all, forever. That means the guy working on development is the perfect guy to also run the business. I strongly disagree with this once a business gets past a certain point. Most successful business models use the most qualified individual for the jobs they best fit at. And while it is possible for very small businesses to have the “worker” be the “boss”, once you break past a certain point it is usually best to let managers be managers and technicians be technicians.

Sometimes it is better to let go of some of the reigns than to lose the race all together. And knowing when that is can be the life or death of a business.

[AGD]

Fireblade,

Bravo, you give as good as you got. So we both agree things stand like this:

The industry is being run by people who should know how to run a big business.

The industry has evolved into a 'big business' model which most successful industries do.

"Big money" has moved into the industry so lack of funds is no longer an issue.

The evolution of products will be toward economy of scale and price reduction.

The legal climate is just another expense to deal with and not untypical.

Companies will do battle as big companies do and try to put the other out of business.


If we are agreed on the above, then we can leave it at that and revisit this in a year or two. If you are right, then down the road we will see a growing industry not unlike that of the 90's driven by the "right stuff". If I am correct, then the industry will be floundering with lack of growth and reduction of players.

I actually like this because its testable (given to my scientific nature).

Agreed?

AGD

[turbo chicken]

I read all i could and the only thing i can think of now is that someone mentioned a meeting in a board room where the decision was made to discontinue electro's for AGD

now ... did you and said staff actually meet in a "board room" with fancy furniture and plants in the corner ??

I kinda pictured some guys in a shop saying "Dang ... we're loosing money on this thing ... well it make since to stop then." ... "lets make more nailguns!!!"

[RRfireblade]

Fireblade,

Bravo, you give as good as you got. So we both agree things stand like this:

The industry is being run by people who should know how to run a big business.

The industry has evolved into a 'big business' model which most successful industries do.

"Big money" has moved into the industry so lack of funds is no longer an issue.

The evolution of products will be toward economy of scale and price reduction.

The legal climate is just another expense to deal with and not untypical.

Companies will do battle as big companies do and try to put the other out of business.


If we are agreed on the above, then we can leave it at that and revisit this in a year or two. If you are right, then down the road we will see a growing industry not unlike that of the 90's driven by the "right stuff". If I am correct, then the industry will be floundering with lack of growth and reduction of players.

I actually like this because its testable (given to my scientific nature).

Agreed?

AGD

Certainly and bravo back to you sir. I appreciate that. I never really felt we were THAT for off from each other only looking at it thru different glass.

Look , I can totally see your prospective as well , really I can. I have been around both sides between K2 , BE before that , w/ PTP and other little guys. (Now a little garage setup trying it out on my own in a TINY scale) I've seen the change and don't like it all either. I certainly agree that not everything that comes with growth is good. I live in Orlando , anytime you wanna trade rush hour commutes , your on !! The old days will always be good ,they always are. We'd all love to go back for a soda and a good chat. But back then lets argue you had 25% of the market share of a few 1000 players. Would it be so bad to have 2.5% of 100K today ?

What I was really trying to get at even tho it probably got mangled , is that we all have a choice to make in this type of climate. We have to roll with the changes (or try if you care) or let it roll by. Things just don't go back , never do. To much global involved , to much everything.

I honestly don't know what's going to happen , don't dare claim to. I don't think it's going to go away , in fact my current feeling (hint hint) is that there IS room opening up for small custom or semi custom business again. With all the corporate nonsense going on , none of them want to cater to the small demo anymore. Thats perfect for the small guy and there's less of them around now. Could be perfect for AGD. There is innovation out there not in patent, just have to find it. That's what you smart guys have always done right ? :)

The future of paintball as a whole long term . . . that is a tough one. I think long term the game will change into smaller game overall. The problem I see is not big business but small business , liability and land development. Golf courses are taking hits now for the first time in a longtime , you just can't have large parcels of land devoted to a minority of the community. Paintball is the same. My 5+ year guess is we're looking at a backyard rec/woods sport and 'maybe' a dedicated pro league with a handful of fields dedicated to that. And then scenerio games being big annual events here and there taking up the slack not unlike that of historical re-creation type events. Hard to say , just a guess.

I think the 'big' growth is over (obviously) , the weeding out is in process (internet marketing) things will probably run level for a little while. Guess we'll see.

Couple of notes :


Companies will do battle as big companies do and try to put the other out of business.

Ginos been doing that since day one. ;)


The evolution of products will be toward economy of scale and price reduction.

Untill the USPTO fires all the current examiners , re-evaluates it's long history of errors , over turns those and comes up with a standard for paintball that falls in line with 'common' fields of invention. Look at the number of Patents for a golf tee. You think paintball has it bad? :D

And as I mentioned earlier , there a thousand more people making a thousands more product each day. Paintball is a simple game of simple tactics and basic equiptment needs. Eventually there's not going to be much left to be 'New'. 20+ years on devepment and your going to hear a whole lot of "Yeah , I already though of that." :)


Lastly , I stand by this as being the biggest hit paintball has seen so far :



3 things :

1) Start with the mass industry change to asian manufacturing (over seas) and importing of paintball product.

2) Internet marketing and sales of non brick and mortor retaillers dominating the major paintball market share.

3) Majority of all paintball product distribution being controlled by an extremely small number of business , who BTW , practice heavily in 1) and 2).


Thanks for your time. Only time can speak the truth. :)

:hail:

[Super_Stalker]

Nice effort, I don't agree with some of it and it seems to be a rather biased post; but good job non the less.

[Automagsam]

Fireblade,

Bravo, you give as good as you got. So we both agree things stand like this:

The industry is being run by people who should know how to run a big business.

The industry has evolved into a 'big business' model which most successful industries do.

"Big money" has moved into the industry so lack of funds is no longer an issue.

The evolution of products will be toward economy of scale and price reduction.

The legal climate is just another expense to deal with and not untypical.

Companies will do battle as big companies do and try to put the other out of business.


If we are agreed on the above, then we can leave it at that and revisit this in a year or two. If you are right, then down the road we will see a growing industry not unlike that of the 90's driven by the "right stuff". If I am correct, then the industry will be floundering with lack of growth and reduction of players.

I actually like this because its testable (given to my scientific nature).

Agreed?

AGD
Speaking of your scientific nature (this is totally off topic) but are you into Michael Chrichton and any of his idea's, you seem like you two would get along.

Oh and Fireblade, thanks for bringing the other side to this, it is better for everyone when you can see both sides to the coin, and I really admire your arguing (in a good way) cause some one needs to stand up to this stubborn kid (me) and get other viewpoints out there lol, thats what is awesome about science. But yeah this whole paintball thing is sorta nonlinear, so i guess only time will show who is right lol,a nd like Tom said we can revisit this.

[AGD]

All,

Now this has turned into an intelligent conversation. :)

What I believe to be at the core of this whole thing is whether or not the paintball industry should make and follow a plan, or leave it to a random walk. Its pretty easy to guess that I prefer the plan, ie ASTM, governing body for the tournaments etc. Now this has been attempted but never worked in paintball so you could easily say that its a hopeless cause.

Since there is a new crop of honchos in town there is another possibility that we could come to a Y in the road. Which direction we take is now in the hands of very few people. I would prefer that this group of decision makers had some experience in paintball but since they don't I am forced to see the negative side of things. Perhaps business acumen will overcome industry experience, only time will tell.

Our country in general has proceeded at the random walk and done remarkably well. But there are stand out examples of a plan really working well. like NASCAR. I spent a lot of personal time and effort along with people like Budd Orr and Jessica Sparks to get the heard moving in one direction. That never happened but for us old timers we still see this as our 'baby' and feel the emotions when things don't look right.

So forgive me if I have a sour view of the current situation, (its my right as a grumpy old man :)) Fireblade is right when he says its all of you who will determine the future of paintball not the past.

Its your world, do us proud.

AGD

[snoopay700]

Yeah, it is up to the players to decide the future. I'm actually pretty confident that if there is a loyal group to good brands that things might just level out. However, i must also agree that there is no innovation anymore, when there could be a ton. That too i think is more up to the players, and if you do have a design, make sure it would work, try to get a patent, and then make a prototype (make sure you can't be sued for the design) and if we have really good markers coming from smaller people, then that may make things level out. Anyway, as has been said before, only time will tell what will come of the industry, but i share a similar view of the industry as Tom, so i can only hope things get better.

[turbo chicken]

I read all i could and the only thing i can think of now is that someone mentioned a meeting in a board room where the decision was made to discontinue electro's for AGD

now ... did you and said staff actually meet in a "board room" with fancy furniture and plants in the corner ??

I kinda pictured some guys in a shop saying "Dang ... we're loosing money on this thing ... well it make since to stop then." ... "lets make more nailguns!!!"

I know everyone is having an intelligent conversation here but ... does anyone know the above? I really want to know for some odd reason.

and to add to the intelligent conversation ... Yes the future is in our hands as players, we can in a way steer to help teeter in one way or another. But as consumers in this market we have to let ourselves be heard. The only way to do that is to get involved and actualy take action. Simply talking about it will not accomplish anything(unless you have someone that is listening to you and actually cares what you think). But taking action and getting involved in some way is what will make a difference.

Hmmm... that makes me ask ... What can i do to get involved ... short of getting a job in the industry after finishing college.

[nathanjones008]

What are some things we can do as customers? The only thing i can think of is boycott certain companies that have a bad business ethics. Also perhaps dig a lil deeper in our wallets and buy new AGD products. If we all buy used mags and equipment than they will (agd)simply not make money. very simple.This is why i buy most of my agd products brnd new.Also its the responsibility for a company to advertise. But as always it is up to the comsumer. is there any other ideas? i do not know much of paintball economics. :)

thanks :dance:

[hitech]

We have markers that can get through incredible amounts of paint on a 45/45 (more than the vast majority carry).


That is a HUGE power source. I want something that is light (no more than 3 lbs), no bigger than an M16, has a positive feed system that CANNOT chop a paintball (instead of preventing it by pausing), and is "self contained". it should also ALWAYS shoot at the same FPS (+- .05 fps) with any size paint without requiring adjustment.

THAT would be inovative. Any one of those would be (the weights and sizes are including EVERYTHING but paint) would be a step forward.

:cheers:

[hitech]

You've insulted a lot of people in the 'industry' by claiming there isn't anyone engineering product in paintball anymore.

Never mind... I'll read the whole thing next time before opening my mouth... :eek:

[Lohman446]

That is a HUGE power source. I want something that is light (no more than 3 lbs), no bigger than an M16, has a positive feed system that CANNOT chop a paintball (instead of preventing it by pausing), and is "self contained". it should also ALWAYS shoot at the same FPS (+- .05 fps) with any size paint without requiring adjustment.

THAT would be inovative. Any one of those would be (the weights and sizes are including EVERYTHING but paint) would be a step forward.

:cheers:

Do enough people want it to make it worth innovating? Would it sell? They are all great things, but so was the warp.

[hitech]

Do enough people want it to make it worth innovating? Would it sell? They are all great things, but so was the warp.

I am the LAST person anyone should ask what would sell. I have NO clue. But I do use a warp. ;)

I have made an observation about products. The best product rarely survives. When two products are competing the lesser product is typically marketed better. The better product attempts to stand on its merits while the lesser product gets significantly more marketing. It appears that marketing is more important to sales than the product.

:cheers:

[Automagsam]

That is a HUGE power source. I want something that is light (no more than 3 lbs), no bigger than an M16, has a positive feed system that CANNOT chop a paintball (instead of preventing it by pausing), and is "self contained". it should also ALWAYS shoot at the same FPS (+- .05 fps) with any size paint without requiring adjustment.

THAT would be inovative. Any one of those would be (the weights and sizes are including EVERYTHING but paint) would be a step forward.

:cheers:
COUGH AUTOMAG COUGH LEVEL X COUGH XMAG COUGH X VALVE ;)

[hitech]

The level 10 does not fit the criteria. It pauses and possibly resets without firing when a chop is possible. I want a positive feed system that by nature of it's design CANNOT chop, therefore, does not need anything to detect it. Think a belt feed system.

An Xvalved mag is not anywhere near lite enough to fit the criteria (have to include the air tank, killing the weight of every marker).

:cheers:

[snoopay700]

The level 10 does not fit the criteria. It pauses and possibly resets without firing when a chop is possible. I want a positive feed system that by nature of it's design CANNOT chop, therefore, does not need anything to detect it. Think a belt feed system.
:cheers:
Cough qloader.

[Automagsam]

Cough qloader.
cough srry that was real.

[Lohman446]

The Q-loader does not truly either. Think along the lines of a revolver cylinder where the feed system cycling is part of the firing mechanics of the weapon

[Automagsam]

The Q-loader does not truly either. Think along the lines of a revolver cylinder where the feed system cycling is part of the firing mechanics of the weapon
I think we are on to a CAD picture....Draw it up :cheers:

[luke]

Think a belt feed system. :cheers:


Was that an implication? Because TK owns the patent on that one. :D

[RRfireblade]

Was that an implication? Because TK owns the patent on that one. :D


Not precisely IIRC , his is tad different.

The AT-85 for example.

Think theres a site for ATS . . .

http://www.getrealpaintball.com/intro_set.html




http://www.getrealpaintball.com/images/medium_gun.gif

[cyrus-the-virus]

We should take all the companies and combine them into one super duper company, that controls the world of paintball, and can't sue eachother for idea's so every one benifets :D

To bad that will never work in the real world. :(

[hitech]

The Q-loader does not truly either. Think along the lines of a revolver cylinder where the feed system cycling is part of the firing mechanics of the weapon

:hail:

Although I was thinking more along the lines of a continous loop belt.

And Tom does not have a patent on what I'm thinking.

The QLoader isn't bad, but being spring fed has many limitations.

[Lohman446]

:hail:

Although I was thinking more along the lines of a continous loop belt.

And Tom does not have a patent on what I'm thinking.

The QLoader isn't bad, but being spring fed has many limitations.

Agreed, I was just using the revolver as a simpler to understand example of the feed and firing mechanism being intertwined

[Raven001]

Why not load paintballs in a shell much like a bullet and use the gas produced by a primer or like to propel it. This has been done in the past and is done now. The only drawback for paintball applications is that velocity is currently hard to control but that might not be so hard to a way to control.

[snoopay700]

:hail:

Although I was thinking more along the lines of a continous loop belt.

And Tom does not have a patent on what I'm thinking.

The QLoader isn't bad, but being spring fed has many limitations.
Well i suggested that because it feeds at like over 50 (supposedly, i know it can feed around 35 with no misfeeds) so there's no worry of chopping at all.

[Lohman446]

Why not load paintballs in a shell much like a bullet and use the gas produced by a primer or like to propel it. This has been done in the past and is done now. The only drawback for paintball applications is that velocity is currently hard to control but that might not be so hard to a way to control.

Because you would be subject to firearm statutes.