Question about regless mags

[Evil1]

A while ago I saw a thread on here about a guy who took the reg potion off of uis mag and made a plug to fit where the reg went and ran a vert reg instead. I would like to get more info on this.

[Evil1]

The thread had to be from a good 2-3 years ago. It had vids of the gun shooting and everything. I think one was done on a micromag body. The reason I am looking in to this is because I have a classic valve that I lost the reg from in a move but I have a bunch of vert regs. I remember thinking the regless mags looked cool.

[Pneumagger]

I did it once, based off of the DW mag I saw. It shot fine and I personally couldn't shoot fast enough to get shootdown. However, the el-cheapo Pure Energy reg left some consistency to be desired. But that's the only reg I could afford at the time. Basically, cap off the regulator portion and have the forgrip reg control velocity and valve pressure.

The main restrictions of the classic mag's max ROF lie at the heart of the sear & on/off operation - the dump chamber can only recharge as the bolt is in the full back position (unlike poppet gun's continuous recharge). So moving to a foregrip cannot help Max ROF - infact it can practically only hurt it.

Here's pics of of my set up I had.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/jrm33/Mag%20Stuff/HM1.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/jrm33/Mag%20Stuff/HM3.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/jrm33/Mag%20Stuff/HM2.jpg

[LiveWire]

so howd u cap it off?! i had a thread just like this awhile back but no1 responded! :(

[wjr]

I was just talking to Deus_Machina from MCB about getting one of those caps made. He presented the option of having the pulg also funtcion as an expansion chamber.

That would help with shootdown and ROF issues, right? It's sort of important becuase this will be used on a EP automag.

[Pneumagger]

so howd u cap it off?! i had a thread just like this awhile back but no1 responded!

I took the back half of my valve (the reg part) and chopped the threaded area free of the reg body. So what you now have is a small threaded disk with 2 holes in it. I then reliably capped the small holes in the reg threaded portion and sealed that to the valve portion once I screwed it in. it was quite ugly, so I took the strongest epoxy I could find, and made an aesthetic permanent coating so the back looked all smooth and glassy.


I was just talking to Deus_Machina from MCB about getting one of those caps made. He presented the option of having the pulg also funtcion as an expansion chamber.

That would help with shootdown and ROF issues, right? It's sort of important becuase this will be used on a EP automag.
This method would not help much if any with shoot down unless you increased on/off flow.
Here is why a classic mag gets shootdown...

Firing Cycle:
1) waiting to fire - bolt locked back, sear forward, on/off open, dump chamber full.
2) beginning to fire - bolt is just being released, sear is just closing on/off, dump chamber full
3) firing - bolt fully extended (forcing the sear to stay down), air released, on/off closed, dump empty
4) bolt resetting - spring force can now be pushing bolt back, sear is still held down, on/off still closed, dump chamber still empty
5) reset/recharge - Bolt is back, on/off now opens, the sear snaps forward (locking bolt), air now begins to fill dump chamber. (gun can be mechanically fired again)
6) waiting to fire - same as step one (gun can be fired fired at full charge again)

In this cycle, the bolt holds holds the sear down - keeping the on/off closed. Therefore, the only time the mag gets a chance to recharge is when the bolt back again - and mechanically capable of firing a weak shot.

In poppet guns, the bolt movement and chamber recharge are are exclusive. The gun is always recharging, even while firing! Other guns get more of the cycle time to recharge than a mag does - meaning the mag regulator needs to be the best at what it does just to keep up (and outshoot) the competition.

2 ways around the automag valve shootdown:
----> To use ultra high pressure flow to blow past restrictions ... The RT Automag's method of filling the dump chamber with bypassed air, then "topping off" with the regulator.
----> Design a searless automag with on/off flow control independent of bolt movement

[wjr]

I took the back half of my valve (the reg part) and chopped the threaded area free of the reg body. So what you now have is a small threaded disk with 2 holes in it. I then reliably capped the small holes in the reg threaded portion and sealed that to the valve portion once I screwed it in. it was quite ugly, so I took the strongest epoxy I could find, and made an aesthetic permanent coating so the back looked all smooth and glassy.


This method would not help much if any with shoot down unless you increased on/off flow.
Here is why a classic mag gets shootdown...

Firing Cycle:
1) waiting to fire - bolt locked back, sear forward, on/off open, dump chamber full.
2) beginning to fire - bolt is just being released, sear is just closing on/off, dump chamber full
3) firing - bolt fully extended (forcing the sear to stay down), air released, on/off closed, dump empty
4) bolt resetting - spring force can now be pushing bolt back, sear is still held down, on/off still closed, dump chamber still empty
5) reset/recharge - Bolt is back, on/off now opens, the sear snaps forward (locking bolt), air now begins to fill dump chamber. (gun can be mechanically fired again)
6) waiting to fire - same as step one (gun can be fired fired at full charge again)

In this cycle, the bolt holds holds the sear down - keeping the on/off closed. Therefore, the only time the mag gets a chance to recharge is when the bolt back again - and mechanically capable of firing a weak shot.

In poppet guns, the bolt movement and chamber recharge are are exclusive. The gun is always recharging, even while firing! Other guns get more of the cycle time to recharge than a mag does - meaning the mag regulator needs to be the best at what it does just to keep up (and outshoot) the competition.

The only 2 ways around the automag valve shootdown:
----> To use ultra high pressure flow to blow past restrictions ... The RT Automag's method of filling the dump chamber with bypassed air, then "topping off" with the regulator.
----> Design a searless automag with on/off flow control independent of bolt movement



I wasn't talking about eliminating the inherent drop off in classic valves. I should have been more clear about that...

Fireblade said that Colins mag had shootdown. Was the shootdown caused by the inherent shootdown in classic valve, or was it because he took off the reg?

And, if the latter, would the expansion chamber added to the cap help eliminate this?

[wjr]

No.

The expansion chamber is behind the on/off. The reason for the shootdown is flow(or lack thereof), specifically flow to the dump chamber. Which is why the RT/XValve is superior to the Classic Valve in recharge capability.

Okay. Looks like you replied before I edited my post...

So, good. taking off the back half has no effect on drop off. I shall procede with my plans.

I should be able to eliminate some of the drop off though by opening up the air passage going from the on-off to the chamber like "the electrician" did. I'm looking at it right now with a flash light, and I can see where it's being constricted.

Probably beyond my level of skill to do right, but heck. The valve was only $30...

[athomas]

The actual air passages in the valve are fine. The restriction at the on-off is caused where the circumference of the pin makes contact with the on-off oring. This is a small opening that restricts air flow.

[wjr]

Hmm... well, the electro pneumatic portion of it is going to give me a very easy way to test if the porting affects recharge time. So, I guess I'll know for sure then.

[don miguel]

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/jrm33/Mag%20Stuff/HM1.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/jrm33/Mag%20Stuff/HM3.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/jrm33/Mag%20Stuff/HM2.jpg
that's a tight setup!!!

[Ydna]

wow, I'm planning on doing this to my electropneumag when I finish with the dang thing. I was wondering how common this mod was...