Another electropneumag...

[Ydna]

I just finished with it tonight, and can't wait to show it off! What an awesome project!!!

http://www.zdspb.com/media/customwork/pneumag/epneumagpromo1thumb.JPG (http://www.zdspb.com/media/customwork/pneumag/epneumagpromo1.JPG) http://www.zdspb.com/media/customwork/pneumag/internals_grips1thumb.JPG (http://www.zdspb.com/media/customwork/pneumag/internals_grips1.JPG)

I had to do a LOT of alterations and parts modding to get the whole setup to work, but I won't go into a lot of detail about all that. The basics is that it uses an X-valve with lvl10 bolt, ULE rail and body (thanks to Mann for the rail and sear), a converted gas-thru foregrip, ANS JackhammerII LPR that I had lying around, and a hacked up Shocker frame.

She uses a converted Ion board (http://www.zdspb.com/media/customwork/pneumag/board1.JPG) to operate (it's a Tadao Ion board actually). The imbedded circuit board in the left side grips was originally used for the Extreme Rage "timer grips", but I gutted the circuit and converted it to operate the Ion board's power button instead. (click for a short demo video (http://www.zdspb.com/media/customwork/pneumag/gripsboard_small.wmv) of turning the gun on/off)

I chose to use the MPA-3 actuator and an SMC SY113 solenoid. I've heard some complaints about that valve so I'm ready to ditch it in light for something else if needed. At the moment the goal is a good semiauto rate of fire so if I can get that then I'll probably be happy. But I'm willing to put something else in there later on if I want to press it...

http://www.zdspb.com/media/customwork/pneumag/internals_frametopthumb.JPG (http://www.zdspb.com/media/customwork/pneumag/internals_frametop.JPG)

The hoses may appear like they get in the way, but they actually ended up placing themselves very nicely. I hate to admit it but some of it was just done by accident. I had some idea of the hose placement before I put everything together, but plans changed a few times over the course of the install (like they always do). When I finished it up everything fell into place nicely.

Anyways, I'll try to get some videos later on...can't wait to try it out in the backyard!

[p8ntbal4me]

I see now why you hacked up that Shoe Box frame, lots of room to work with!!

My SY113 started to leak after the ROF went above 20bps on ramp and full auto.

Are you using a ULT?

My new noid is on the way from ASP, I'll post results as soon as it comes in.

[Ydna]

I liked this frame since it had good mounting spot for the trigger switch, and also because the trigger shape offers all the room I need for the MPA-3 actuator. I did have to remove the bottom grip panel screw holes in order to fit the battery, but hey life goes on without the bottom grip screws :tard:

[Scott Hudnall]

nicely done. so the "iMag" lives....of sorts.

looks great. get a demo up on it throwing paint. :cheers:


Ydna - any way to get a close up of the WIRING and BOARD? Also, where did you get the solenoid from? interesting work, my friend.

[p8ntbal4me]

nicely done. so the "iMag" lives....of sorts.

looks great. get a demo up on it throwing paint. :cheers:


Ydna - any way to get a close up of the WIRING and BOARD? Also, where did you get the solenoid from? interesting work, my friend.


In the post above he listed the noid but I'll give you a exact number here:

SMC SY113A-SG-PM3 found on Air Soldier Products (ASP) page under "Solenoids" tab on the upper left hand side.

Make sure you get the SY113 not the SY123,... the other one will run open and that would be a bad thing if you hook the ports up wrong!! :)

[momentumrising]

absolutely love it. kudos to you good sir

[Scott Hudnall]

The Shocker frame...that's not a shoebox frame, is it? looks like a frame from the newer shocker.

[Ydna]

Yeah, it's an SFT frame that I had lying around. I've got a lot of brick shocker frames lying around too (look like this (http://www.zdspb.com/media/store/used/shockersportframe_black2.JPG)), but I decided it wouldn't work as good. The trigger position and shape of the SFT frame was really good for this project.

All I had to do was rig up that ghetto-tastic trigger guard to pretty it up a bit...lol

I can tkae pics of the electronics, what do you want in specific?

[Scott Hudnall]

I'll PM you, but basically just a good close up of the wiring, etc. (LOL....just disassemble the thing, break it all apart, take clear and close up pics...you know...the works.....:).

Z is gonna help me with some pics, as well, so what ever you can post...AO'ers will be very grateful and I would hope others would take up the project.

Thanks Ydna!


Scott :cheers:


Yeah, it's an SFT frame that I had lying around. I've got a lot of brick shocker frames lying around too (look like this (http://www.zdspb.com/media/store/used/shockersportframe_black2.JPG)), but I decided it wouldn't work as good. The trigger position and shape of the SFT frame was really good for this project.

All I had to do was rig up that ghetto-tastic trigger guard to pretty it up a bit...lol

I can tkae pics of the electronics, what do you want in specific?

[p8ntbal4me]

I'll PM you, but basically just a good close up of the wiring, etc. (LOL....just disassemble the thing, break it all apart, take clear and close up pics...you know...the works.....:).

Z is gonna help me with some pics, as well, so what ever you can post...AO'ers will be very grateful and I would hope others would take up the project.

Thanks Ydna!


Scott :cheers:


Not that it is a picture or anything or that you could relate it to something you can buy right now,... but I can post a diagram of my layout of my kit with part references to Ydna's setup.

Mine is basically the same, but the ram, and final noid are one unit. I have built the same concept as Ydna, BE, The E~, etc. I agree that for pickup parts, the way he did it is the "generic working" version of something that will not fail.

Give me a PM to remind me (as I am now drinking!) and I'll post tomorrow.

[p8ntbal4me]

K,.. here is the diagram.

I took my pin layout, changed it with the Morlock one from TAGs home page,.. and removed the eyes.

This SHOULD work for you with a generic setup.

My boards use something simular to eyes on BKOs and such.

But chaning from mine to this diagrams eyes is a 2 minute change TOPS!

http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4946102

[Lenny]

Ydna, I should've known you would be modding a 'Mag with Ion stuff... You and your silly Smart Parts passion. :rolleyes:

Hot Mag, though; I must admit.


/And on a side note, thank you for shipping orders from ZDSPB so fast! I've ordeded twice and haven't been disappointed. Will definately be a returning customer if I get any more SP gear or need any other parts. :D
//butt kissing
/// :ninja:

[Ydna]

Thanks for the good feedback, ask for some stickers next if you want em...

And yes, I find that most of my custom projects are built using SP parts. I have a lot of them sitting around, so I tend to like using them instead of thigns I have to pay for....errr, well, nevermind.

Anyways, here are some pics of the electronics. Do please note that it's not a regular Ion board, it's a Tadao instead (actually it's a tadao prototype) but all the main stuff is the same.
- The blue/black wire pair is for the power button (connects to the timer grips circuit board),
- black/red goes to the battery,
- grey pair goes to the trigger microswitch,
- other black/red is for the solenoid.
I didn't bother relocating the LED since I use the smoke grips with it. I also haven't installed eyes in this...I'm not sure if I will do that, I'm leaning toward no since it has the level-10, but if I did then it'd just have the ion eye wire harness leading from the connector at the top.

The things I removed from the board are:
-solenoid
-capacitor (not needed)
-trigger microswitch (relocated to another part of the frame)
-I also removed the three connectors at the bottom of the board, since they weren't needed
-And I also disassembled the powerswitch so it would be actuated from the top instead of the side (easier to turn on while the grips are off, if needed) doesn't really matter...

http://www.zdspb.com/media/customwork/pneumag/board6thumb.JPG (http://www.zdspb.com/media/customwork/pneumag/board6.JPG) http://www.zdspb.com/media/customwork/pneumag/board4thumb.JPG (http://www.zdspb.com/media/customwork/pneumag/board4.JPG) http://www.zdspb.com/media/customwork/pneumag/board5thumb.JPG (http://www.zdspb.com/media/customwork/pneumag/board5.JPG) http://www.zdspb.com/media/customwork/pneumag/board7thumb.JPG (http://www.zdspb.com/media/customwork/pneumag/board7.JPG) http://www.zdspb.com/media/customwork/pneumag/board8thumb.JPG (http://www.zdspb.com/media/customwork/pneumag/board8.JPG)

I've been in light talks with p8ntball4me about the new parts and they sound pretty slick to say the least. The holy grail would be a totally integrated pilot-activated solenoid/ram. The specifics of it would be the main thing to worry around with, but that'd be nice to have.

[magpump]

sorry for the tripple post... lol. ill delete the other two,but anyways:

with a capacitor there will/should ALWAYS be a constant flow of voltage. when the battery for SOME reason drops in voltage the capicitor helps out, delivering one constant flow.

this is only from what i know, and may not matter in this case..

[p8ntbal4me]

"-capacitor (not needed)"

and why would it not be needed..


Ill base it on stereo equipment to give you a better idea.

The pancake noid is like a a sub.

The battery is the battery.

The cap is the larger caps used by the amp.

The battery feeds power to the amp in the car which next dow the line is the cap.

The sub woofer gets a signal to do its "thing", which needs a larger boost of power that the amp is supplying. Instead of the amp pushing all the power in huge spikes, the sub looks to the first thing in the line to draw power from,... the cap.

The cap gets drained of power, the sub gets its needed juice to "do its thing", the amp draws power from the battery again, "fills" the cap with needed juice to work, then the cycle restarts.

Reason being is that the amp doesnt get power spikes, the battery doesnt get power spikes, the alternator doesnt take on bigger loads. It helps save ur system.

Same thing with the noid.

It looks to the first thing in the line that has 9volts,.. if you didnt have the cap. ur battery wouldnt last 5 seconds. The noid looks down the line for its 9volts it needs,.. sees the cap as having 9volts, and takes it to fire. The board sees the cap requiring power, the cap handles the power spikes and resistance in the line between the noid and the board.

The Electrician explained this much better than I can,.. but I tried without the cap, then with the cap, and hes right.

You need the cap with the pancake noid,... or u need a HUGE battery!

[magpump]

Ill base it on stereo equipment to give you a better idea.

The pancake noid is like a a sub.

The battery is the battery.

The cap is the larger caps used by the amp.

The battery feeds power to the amp in the car which next dow the line is the cap.

The sub woofer gets a signal to do its "thing", which needs a larger boost of power that the amp is supplying. Instead of the amp pushing all the power in huge spikes, the sub looks to the first thing in the line to draw power from,... the cap.

The cap gets drained of power, the sub gets its needed juice to "do its thing", the amp draws power from the battery again, "fills" the cap with needed juice to work, then the cycle restarts.

Reason being is that the amp doesnt get power spikes, the battery doesnt get power spikes, the alternator doesnt take on bigger loads. It helps save ur system.

Same thing with the noid.

It looks to the first thing in the line that has 9volts,.. if you didnt have the cap. ur battery wouldnt last 5 seconds. The noid looks down the line for its 9volts it needs,.. sees the cap as having 9volts, and takes it to fire. The board sees the cap requiring power, the cap handles the power spikes and resistance in the line between the noid and the board.

The Electrician explained this much better than I can,.. but I tried without the cap, then with the cap, and hes right.

You need the cap with the pancake noid,... or u need a HUGE battery!

yup thats what i thought, i posted something like that right before you. just not with the huge explanation. :D

[p8ntbal4me]

yup thats what i thought, i posted something like that right before you. just not with the huge explanation. :D


Yeah, credit goes to the Electrician for explaining it to me.

I related it to stereo equipment and it made sense to me.

[Pneumagger]

the TL;DR version:

electromechanical (pancake) and ION solenoids draw more power than solenoid Valves (skinner, humphrey, etc.). All can run off 9 volts, but a 9 volt can only deliver so many milliamps at a time.

Power = volts * Amps

Now if you wired several 9 volt batteries in parallel, you could increase the power output and still only be pushing 9 volts. Or (the more common approach) a capacitor is like a temporary battery that can be charged up to 9V by the primary battery and discharges it's power nearly instantly (as opposed to being restricted to chemically producing it's own power like a batery - it's all stored up ready to go).

----edit---
It comes to this: If your noid's power usage rate is less than the battery's ability to chemically produce power - then the battery is sufficient. If the noid draws more power than the battery can supply, use a capacitor fed by a battery. If your noid draws more power than a capictor can push, add another capacitor or a get bigger one.

[Lenny]

the TL;DR version:

electromechanical (pancake) and ION solenoids draw more power than solenoid Valves (skinner, humphrey, etc.). All can run off 9 volts, but a 9 volt can only deliver so many milliamps at a time.

Power = volts * Amps

Now if you wired several 9 volt batteries in parallel, you could increase the power output and still only be pushing 9 volts. Or (the more common approach) a capacitor is like a temporary battery that can be charged up to 9V by the primary battery and discharges it's power nearly instantly (as opposed to being restricted to chemically producing it's own power like a batery - it's all stored up ready to go).

----edit---
It comes to this: If your noid's power usage rate is less than the battery's ability to chemically produce power - then the battery is sufficient. If the noid draws more power than the battery can supply, use a capacitor fed by a battery. If your noid draws more power than a capictor can push, add another capacitor or a get bigger one.
You know, I'm really friggin tired of you making me feel stupid. So I'll add my own bit of useless trivia. :p

If you open up a nine volt battery, there are 6 rods that house the actual battery components. The housing rod thingies are technically AAAA batteries and hold a charge of approx. 1.5volts. With a small plate of metal (say, part of the outer 9vlt case), they can be fit to cheaply and easily run AAA appliances (basically, subtitute for a AAA battery).

BOO-YAH!!!

[Pneumagger]

You know, I'm really friggin tired of you making me feel stupid. So I'll add my own bit of useless trivia. :p

If you open up a nine volt battery, there are 4 rods that house the actual battery components. The housing rod thingies are technically AAAA batteries and hold a charge of approx. 1.5volts. With a small plate of metal (say, part of the outer 9vlt case), they can be fit to cheaply and easily run AAA appliances (basically, subtitute for a AAA battery).

BOO-YAH!!!

Don't you mean 6 rods (AAAA cells)? Cause it's not like 6 x 1.5 doesn't equal 9 volts. :rofl:
(the emag battery has 14 similar 1.2 volt cells in series)

/sorry
//had to do it.

[Lenny]

Don't you mean 6 rods (AAAA cells)? Cause it's not like 6 x 1.5 doesn't equal 9 volts. :rofl:
(the emag battery has 14 similar 1.2 volt cells in series)

/sorry
//had to do it.
What ever dude, it's late. *sigh* Edited.

It is cool, though.

[p8ntbal4me]

I have more than enough "testicular forditude" to get shot at for our country.

But no where near enough to go taking apart batteries!

Baaaaaaad personal experience. :tard:


Hope you feel better now! :D

[Ydna]

ahh there ya go.

I could haveleft the capacitor on the board, it would have worked okay, but it woudl have been providing more available power than I needed so I ditched it.

In an application where you're using the ion solenoid, you'll have the best results with a similar capacitor however you can of course split it up and/or move it away from the board. For isntance in this mod I divided it up into two 1000-µF caps, and put them in the bottom of the frame, attached to the board with wires
http://www.zdspb.com/media/customwork/ion/megarelocate_frame1.JPG

[MagModderMatt]

(shortcuts to stuff on bottom)

You know there is a Very cheap way to do this kind of project, I did it like this, and came out with Close to the same thing

went to Scenerio Dreams, They sell a Spyder grip frame for $15 It not only has lots of space It has a place with set screws to fit the Mpa-3 (where the pancake E-noid went)

Then I bought a UTB, (it is the most tiny board I could find) has very virsitle with the membrane buttons!
Bought the EP noid & the mpa-3 at air soldier (all this for less than $100)
all that fit's in that grip very nicely. (enough room for battery and a CAP and room to spare)

I ran the Lpr off my drop forward (yes I like drop forwards) and up through the bottom of the grip frame. thing doesnt even look like a E or EP gun, the grip frame has no words/markings and is very high quality, (especialy for $15)
Grip=
http://www.scenariodreams.com/oscommerce/product_info.php?cPath=18&products_id=135

UTB=
http://www.scenariodreams.com/oscommerce/product_info.php?cPath=32&products_id=195

[afortuna]

(shortcuts to stuff on bottom)

You know there is a Very cheap way to do this kind of project, I did it like this, and came out with Close to the same thing

went to Scenerio Dreams, They sell a Spyder grip frame for $15 It not only has lots of space It has a place with set screws to fit the Mpa-3 (where the pancake E-noid went)

Then I bought a UTB, (it is the most tiny board I could find) has very virsitle with the membrane buttons!
Bought the EP noid & the mpa-3 at air soldier (all this for less than $100)
all that fit's in that grip very nicely. (enough room for battery and a CAP and room to spare)

I ran the Lpr off my drop forward (yes I like drop forwards) and up through the bottom of the grip frame. thing doesnt even look like a E or EP gun, the grip frame has no words/markings and is very high quality, (especialy for $15)
Grip=
http://www.scenariodreams.com/oscommerce/product_info.php?cPath=18&products_id=135

UTB=
http://www.scenariodreams.com/oscommerce/product_info.php?cPath=32&products_id=195


2 Things: Damn that is cheap for a frame and all those wires make that board look ridiculously funny. Nice way to go. How much work to mod that frame for sear movement?

[MagModderMatt]

Actualy it wasnt bad, I just used a dremmel to put a 1/4 inch deep channel along the top for the mag sear - from right before the mag front mount screw (almost all the way to the back field strip bolt) and the only other major thing was drilling streight down for the sear rod, it meshes with the mpa-3 well I had to cut the noid channel a bit farther forward and add 2 set screws (one on top 1 bottom) because the mpa is not as fat as the pancake and I wanted it to fit tight ofcorse. About 1 hour of work all told. the asa screws are not the offset spyders, it comes with regular ones.

I am going to put this noid in it because the grip is big enough to fit the board+bat+noid easily WAS Noid 5VDC and up to 200 psi that can cycle 120CPS $hit you not! :shooting:
Here is the Link for the noid WAS EP Solenoid link (http://www.wickedairsportz.com/products.php?cat=26)
Check it out guys!! :cheers:

2 Things: Damn that is cheap for a frame and all those wires make that board look ridiculously funny. Nice way to go. How much work to mod that frame for sear movement?

[p8ntbal4me]

I am going to put this noid in it because the grip is big enough to fit the board+bat+noid easily WAS Noid 5VDC and up to 200 psi that can cycle 120CPS $hit you not! :shooting:
Here is the Link for the noid WAS EP Solenoid link (http://www.wickedairsportz.com/products.php?cat=26)
Check it out guys!! :cheers:

Good luck getting one from WAS.

They still owe me 1,.. that was over a year ago. :tard:

Im using the same solenoid,.... but it doesnt say "WAS" on the side of it. CPS is well above 77.

~ P8nt

[questionful]

How does that compare to the cycle rate of other solenoid valves? When I get around to building my e-pneu frame, I want something that will last. I mean, I would not at all mind replacing a few cheap parts (like O-rings) every once in a while, but I don't want it to die on me and then have to go buy another noid.