The Rarest of ALL Mags ( I don't even have one)

[AGD]

AO Collectors,

In another thread we were looking at a Pro Mag that was made by John Sosta in the early nineties and I got to thinking about the rarest mags out there. This is a great story.....

In the mid-nineties we were trying to come up with a way to lighten the Mag without compromising the strength. Aluminum didn't seem like a good choice and since we were all about quality, we figured the best and COOLEST thing to do would be to make the valves out of

TITANIUM.

After much research we found out that there were new Ti alloys that were much more machinable, so at great expense we bought a rod of the stuff and had it made into about 20 valves. With great excitement they brought the tray of new super valves to me right from the machine shop. Picking one up, I was completely shocked to find I could tell no difference in the weight! I told my guys "these must be the wrong ones" but we checked and sure enough they were Ti. The reality was that in order to gain weight savings from Ti, you have to use LESS of it because its stronger than aluminum. Its only like 20 some % lighter than steel and since we couldn't make things smaller they were a waste of time.

The Back Story

Disappointed, the tray of valves was banished to the back room and I forgot about them for some time. In later discussions with people about the fiasco, they said "hey I want one of those!". When I went back to find them they were no where to be found. No one even remembered seeing them. Our best guess is that they got mixed in with the regular stainless valves and went out the door in normal production guns.

So somewhere floating around in Paintball Land are less than 2 dozen titanium Automags that someone has probably tossed into a closet. My field techs knew this story and for years they looked for them when fixing guns at tourneys but to no avail. I don't have one, we have never found one, but if you do, I AM WILLING TO PAY 1000 DOLLARS for one of those valves. You would probably have to identify them by weight on a scale. Someone can calculate what they should weigh.

Another piece of AGD history for the archives.

AGD

[LFD92]

Besides the nearly unrecognizable weight dfference, would there have been any distinctive markings that you can remember? For example: no writing, different serial number, perhaps a "Ti" somewhere?

[MaD_SaM]

Maybe you can provide us with serial numbers of valve's produced around the same date that the Titanium valve's were made. Might save some time on this special search.

[AGD]

No distinctive markings, most likely they went out as standard valves. We didn't keep track of the serial numbers for each year. Each gun model had different numbers so it was difficult. Probably in the 40-50k range for the 68Automag family.

AGD

[Lohman446]

I hate to think of the things TK tried that should have worked (this, perfect circle paintballs for paintball, etc.) that in the end he said "that was a waist of time and money" and never marketed.

I'd hate to think where we would be if it had been Adam and Billy instead.

[Cow hunter]

Were the titanium valves really impossible to distinguish from the normal ones? Is there anything different about them other than the weight?

[going_home]

Were the titanium valves really impossible to distinguish from the normal ones? Is there anything different about them other than the weight?

How can you tell with the naked eye the difference between a stainless steel
68 Automag / Classic valve and a titanium one ?
Even any suttle differences you can think of may find one for you.

[Vendetta]

Isn't Ti a little warmer in color than SS?

[tech-chan]

Thats what I thought too, could they be minimag valves too?

[mag_lover05]

if i had one i'd hold out for 1500 :p :p :p


hope you find one :hail:

[aqua_scummm]

Most titanium you see is a darker gray, but it's rarely polished to the point of an AGD valve, the coloring is quite close.

I just took a bunch of pics of my 68 valve next to a Ti Spork, uploading now

[flyboy]

I'm not sure what grade you use, but rubbing titanium on glass is supposed to leave a mark like a crayon.

[tech-chan]

Im going home to rub my valve on glass somewhere...

[aqua_scummm]

Pictures comparing a 68automag Field Rental Valve to a Titanium Spork, with polished and rough areas:
http://www.threehundredfps.com/images/magspork

[tech-chan]

It don't work.

[Dryden]

Wow, a few questions, then. About what year might this have been? Are the velocity nuts SS or were those Ti too? Would a Ti valve be more or less resistant to scratching?

If you scratch a SS Classic valve, such as what you see a lot around the air inlet where it's been gouged with a wrench, the scratches are yellow/gold in color. Would a Ti valve not show the same thing?

[aqua_scummm]

It don't work.
i posted it before it finished uploading, you were just too quick

[mag_lover05]

i need a mag :( that field rental one looks nice...


i wish i had a Ti valve. lol

[tech-chan]

Sorry.

[custar]

Is that valve only or valve + regulator? If the former, there may be some telltale differences in coloration. Unless some heathen used an ANS regulator or similar.

custar

[SummaryJudgement]

Pictures comparing a 68automag Field Rental Valve to a Titanium Spork, with polished and rough areas:
http://www.threehundredfps.com/images/magspork

A titanium spork!? That's awsome......what, was it designed for the moon or something?
:cheers:

[White Wolf]

Tom have you contacted Oh Pawluk, I remember going in his store in 97-98 and him having just got back form some tourney and was showing of his Ti valve. This one was one of the "getting through Austrailian customs {pump} mags"

[FiXeL]

Were the titanium valves really impossible to distinguish from the normal ones? Is there anything different about them other than the weight?

Yeah, there are ways but these will damage the parts:

- Grind it - Stainless gives dark orange sparks, Ti gives white sparks
- Heat it - Ti gives a very colorfull oxidation into the blue and purple when heated, Stainless goes only to orange at best.

Other than that it would be very hard to distinguish (sp) them because colors look very alike.

Tom, you really started a quest:

Tom Kaye and the Quest for the titanium valves (great movie title, Lupin III anyone?) :D

Just kidding, it will be really hard to find those out of 90.000 mags produced, not all those owners are checking AO on a regular basis. It will be a real find and make a regular mag a real collectors item.

[Niox]

May just be the light but I think I have a contender, the 2 serials are CF04433.

I don't know whether it is a titanium one or what, probably isn't, if I get some good quality shots up could someone tell?

[mag_lover05]

rub them against a glass cup...if it marks the glass like a crayon its titanium...if it doesnt mark it at all...it isnt.


supposedly...from a few posts up

[Niox]

No mark :( ah well, best of luck with your search Tom.

[flyboy]

If regular valves are stainless then they should have some magnetic properties. Titanium won't.

[CaliMagFan]

Pictures comparing a 68automag Field Rental Valve to a Titanium Spork, with polished and rough areas:
http://www.threehundredfps.com/images/magspork

ah yes, the REI Ti spork. i love mine, I think lighter than the Snowpeak by a couple of grams.. go light, go well.

[Niox]

I can't get any magnets to stick to the valve or the powertube, they only stick to the spirng, bolt or rear velocity adjuster screws. Shame the serials are way out of range...

I can see half of AO go to stick magnets on their valves now.

[Dryden]

If you mail me your valves I'll weigh them for you.

If you get the valve back it's stainless steel, if you don't get it back it was titanium. :ninja:

[Pneumagger]

If you mail me your valves I'll weigh them for you.

If you get the valve back it's stainless steel, if you don't get it back it was titanium. :ninja:
:rofl:

[tech-chan]

Im rolling too.

[originalspyderxtra]

hmmm, this is an interesting story. makes me wonder if my classic is one.

[paintballfiend]

Just checked...nope, no Ti valve on my mag. :cry:

[FiXeL]

If regular valves are stainless then they should have some magnetic properties. Titanium won't.

Automag valves were made from 304 stainless if i'm not mistaken, and that is austenitic stainless steel meaning its not magnetic. The only way to tell the difference is weighing it, compare color (i think this will be very hard even for an expierenced metal worker) or machine it (that tells alot about a material to a metalworker)

[tech-chan]

I have acsess to a Brinell tester at the colege, will that do it? Will I have to scratch it? Will it really leave a mark on glass?
Jeremiah

[lather]

How much for the spork? :D

[PumpMag]

This is awesome!

Another reason why Automags hold their value and now some will be even worth more! :dance:

[BigEvil]

Stupid question but will a magent stick to it?

[going_home]

Stupid question but will a magent stick to it?

Whats a magent ?
:confused:
(just kidding lol)

[Pneumagger]

No, it's austentic (sp?) 300 series stainless steel.

The unit cell crystalline structure is different than that of normal steels. Normal ferrite (alpha phase iron) has a body cubic centered crystalline lattice, austenite (gamma phase iron) has a face centered cubic crystalline lattice.

Same metal, different properties - one of which is greatly reduced magnetic properties.

[SummaryJudgement]

No, it's austentic (sp?) 300 series stainless steel.

The unit cell crystalline structure is different than that of normal steels. Normal ferrite (alpha phase iron) has a body cubic centered crystalline lattice, austenite (gamma phase iron) has a face centered cubic crystalline lattice.

Same metal, different properties - one of which is greatly reduced magnetic properties.

Whoa! I think someone's been to school ;)

[aqua_scummm]

How much for the spork? :D
http://www.rei.com/online/store/Search?storeId=8000&vcat=REI_SEARCH&query=spork&x=0&y=0
$7.95

I am also a big fan of the light my fire sporks. Very good for a plastic spork.


*aqua_scummm is a spork enthusiast/conneseuir

[FiXeL]

No, it's austentic (sp?) 300 series stainless steel.

The unit cell crystalline structure is different than that of normal steels. Normal ferrite (alpha phase iron) has a body cubic centered crystalline lattice, austenite (gamma phase iron) has a face centered cubic crystalline lattice.

Same metal, different properties - one of which is greatly reduced magnetic properties.

Errr.. ok.. I've milled these kinds of stainless (316Ti is a real pain in the butt to mill) and never got any specific information about the stucture of the metal. 304 is kind of ok to do, but like all stainless steel you will have to be very specific about cutting speeds, or your tools will be gone in no time. The only thing we have on the shop floor is cutting data for that gives us cutting speeds and feeds for specific materials for the tools we use.

Anyway, milling or turning stainless is not an easy task, and titanium is worse. (classified under super alloys)

[back2integrity]

I have a "smart mag" valve that is slightly lighter than my other valves. It was made to be light though, wasn't it? If not, is it possible that the Ti was made into some "smart valves" ?

[kayvon]

wouldnt there be different conductivities of the metals?
probably would be easier to weigh but whatever

[AGD]

One way to tell is to spark it against a grinding wheel. Ti gives off distinctive white sparks, SS will look orangish.

Ok let the valve destruction begin...

AGD

[aqua_scummm]

I rubbed my spork against a few glass things and it left no mark, for whatever its worth

[MikeRosenthal]

I have a "smart mag" valve that is slightly lighter than my other valves. It was made to be light though, wasn't it? If not, is it possible that the Ti was made into some "smart valves" ?

My smart mag valve has similar coloration. I have a fealing it has nothing to do with Ti but who knows.

-MR

[Phantom Power]

I'm guessing the $1000 reward doesn't apply for a Ti valve with grinding or tooling marks on it huh ?

Titanium and 403 Stainless have different electrical resistivities, so you should be able to distinguish between them with an ohmmeter.

[MANN]

I'm guessing the $1000 reward doesn't apply for a Ti valve with grinding or tooling marks on it huh ?

Titanium and 403 Stainless have different electrical resistivities, so you should be able to distinguish between them with an ohmmeter.

Dang. You've been here 4 years, and every post you have is informative. :cheers:

[Pneumagger]

I'm guessing the $1000 reward doesn't apply for a Ti valve with grinding or tooling marks on it huh ?

Titanium and 403 Stainless have different electrical resistivities, so you should be able to distinguish between them with an ohmmeter.

welcome to ao?
:cheers: :confused:

[mag_lover05]

4 years and one post?!?!?!

don miguel needs to be your apprentice.

[MANN]

4 years and one post?!?!?!

don miguel needs to be your apprentice.

:rofl: :clap: :rofl: :clap:

[smilestyler]

Imagine the dilema of deciding which thread is worthy of that first post :eek:

[punkncat]

I'm guessing the $1000 reward doesn't apply for a Ti valve with grinding or tooling marks on it huh ?

Titanium and 403 Stainless have different electrical resistivities, so you should be able to distinguish between them with an ohmmeter.



Super Lurker

:ninja:

[etjoyride]

I don't believe it was posted and i'm sick of math. has anyone figured out how much a TI valve should way (please mention whether it's fully assembled, partially assembled, etc.)

[LS1 WS6]

This is hilarious! I can just picture everyone running to check out their old valve that has been laying around forever. Very comical. :D

[LoveMyMagMoreThanYou]

One way to tell is to spark it against a grinding wheel. Ti gives off distinctive white sparks, SS will look orangish.

Ok let the valve destruction begin...

AGD

Well..........my valve is CF49520. I am not willing to spark it. How would I know if it was one of the valves?

:confused:

[aqua_scummm]

find another one, compare the color VERY carefully, and weigh the two

[Tao]

Is the valve AND bolt made from Ti or just the valve?

[p8ntbal4me]

4 years and one post?!?!?!

don miguel needs to be your apprentice.


Roooooooooolling over this one!!! :rofl:

[LoveMyMagMoreThanYou]

find another one, compare the color VERY carefully, and weigh the two

Strangely enough, one of my brother-in-laws has an older 'Mag!

[skipdogg]

not to be saying anything about the former AGD employees, but... Tom have you first thought about who was working for you then. I would guess an employee may have 'reallocated' them to their personal collection. Sorry, but I just had to say it. I think it would be foolish to not consider that angle.

[Tao]

SO what are standard valves suposed to weigh? (and is that without the bolt and spring?) How much SHOULD the Ti ones weigh?

*Bonus points for answering in grams* :rolleyes:

[Jimmykaboots]

so our options are as so?

1. rub it against a metal grinder, orange sparks is steel, white sparks is titanium
2. rub it againt glass, leaves a mark is titanium, doesn't leave a mark is steel
3. weigh it, steel is slightly heavier than titanium <--- but how much heavier i am wondering? Heck how do you even get the valve out of the automag classic?
4. Odometer(whats this? something about electrical current, can someone explain? i'd rather not rub my valve against glass or a metal grinder lol thanks)

[FARMER00]

ok well, i have an old ti lacrosse shaft (the only pure ti lacrosse shaft modle) but i broke it in a game last year and i also have various grades of stainless,

glass doeesnt leave a mark on either, the grinding thing is true, ti has white sparks, i cant test the weight to give numbers, and and also i just checked the ohms and for Ti i got about 5 and for SS i got about 2 i used 2 sources for both

watch, lacrosse shaft for ti
and classic valve and swiss army knife for SS

[aqua_scummm]

I rubbed my Ti spork against glass several times and got nothing.

I then used my multimeter to read resistance. I have an old field rental mag, and the two valve havles are quite different in color. The front, which is rental specific (no access to air chamber, few other differences) registered at from .1 ohms to .3 ohms. The rear, which is a standard 68automag reg, registered from .3 ohms to .6 ohms.

I had my hopes up that they ran out of automag rears, and put a Ti one on before stamping them, but I doubt it.

AGD/Tom Kaye:

Were the Ti Valves stamped already? Or were they just sitting there unstamped? If the latter, they could have been salvaged for parts, someone could have a Ti powertube, another a Ti reg, etc.

[Thanna]

so our options are as so?

1. rub it against a metal grinder, orange sparks is steel, white sparks is titanium
2. rub it againt glass, leaves a mark is titanium, doesn't leave a mark is steel
3. weigh it, steel is slightly heavier than titanium <--- but how much heavier i am wondering? Heck how do you even get the valve out of the automag classic?
4. Odometer(whats this? something about electrical current, can someone explain? i'd rather not rub my valve against glass or a metal grinder lol thanks)

Lol. Odometer is what's in your car. An Ohm-meter measure the resistance of a particular object.

[aqua_scummm]

ok well, i have an old ti lacrosse shaft (the only pure ti lacrosse shaft modle) but i broke it in a game last year and i also have various grades of stainless,

glass doeesnt leave a mark on either, the grinding thing is true, ti has white sparks, i cant test the weight to give numbers, and also im about to go check the ohms on my multimeter any second
My teammate (coach's son, attackman of course) wrapped a stick around a player at a tournament, and broke his shaft into three pieces. It was amazing, I've seen Ti break, and heard it was kind of brittle, but two fracture points? :wow:

[FARMER00]

My teammate (coach's son, attackman of course) wrapped a stick around a player at a tournament, and broke his shaft into three pieces. It was amazing, I've seen Ti break, and heard it was kind of brittle, but two fracture points? :wow:
i just snapped it in half, but an attackman shaft isnt very stong anyways its was probaly a ti composite shaft,

[aqua_scummm]

Yeah, combined with the fact that it was three years old (oils from hands will weaken Ti over time), but still, two fractures. You just don't see that. As soon as it fractures once, all the stress is relieved, no need for a second fracture.

[FARMER00]

Yeah, combined with the fact that it was three years old (oils from hands will weaken Ti over time), but still, two fractures. You just don't see that. As soon as it fractures once, all the stress is relieved, no need for a second fracture.
yeah that is pretty sweet, im jelouse lol ive broken over 15 shafts (wood, ti, aluminum and composits) but never broke it in 2 places

[zorrotmm]

Hmmm. That's odd. My mag valve seems to weigh the same as a duck.

[aqua_scummm]

Hmmm. That's odd. My mag valve seems to weigh the same as a duck.
BURN IT!!!!
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b282/mattpace/memes/HolyGrail029.jpg

[aqua_scummm]

ok no more jokes lets get rich.

Somebody find me a titanium valve

[FARMER00]

Hmmm. That's odd. My mag valve seems to weigh the same as a duck.
sadly not enough people will understand that



anyways, my cousin played way back in the day and he said he remembers the dude who sponcered them had the ti valve, now his field and proshop was burnt down (mafia related stuff) and i doubt he would still have it after that, but ill call him up and ask him about it (ive played a game or 2 with him, he doesnt play anymore) for ya tom

[back2integrity]

SO what are standard valves suposed to weigh? (and is that without the bolt and spring?)

*Bonus points for answering in grams* :rolleyes:

12.7g w/ on/off and PT tip and Macro fitting (no bolt)

12.0g w/ on/off and tip (no bolt)

11.6g w/ PT tip but no on/off (and no bolt)

10.6g w/ no on/off or PT tip or bolt or nut (11.1g with nut)

[zorrotmm]

BURN IT!!!!


Wow, that was a lightning fast response with a screenshot! You gotta admit though, this is the closes thing I've seen to a mag inquisition.

For years to come mag valves may be scratched, ground and burned until the unorthadox alloys that hide among us are found

[aqua_scummm]

I keep special pics in my photobucket, you know, just in case

[Jimmykaboots]

Lol. Odometer is what's in your car. An Ohm-meter measure the resistance of a particular object.

Where the dunce am I gonna get an Ohm Meter? Its not like everyone has one lying around in their closet lol. *runs over to Canadian tire* Think the local hardware store will have an Ohm-meter?

[aqua_scummm]

Where the dunce am I gonna get an Ohm Meter? Its not like everyone has one lying around in their closet lol. *runs over to Canadian tire* Think the local hardware store will have an Ohm-meter?
They definitely should (it will likely be a multimeter), but you'll need to know electronics basics to use it:

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b282/mattpace/16402199.gif

[Jimmykaboots]

They definitely should (it will likely be a multimeter), but you'll need to know electronics basics to use it:

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b282/mattpace/16402199.gif

Jesus christ it's a lion get in the car.... so the Ohm Meter measures resistance again a lion? Ok wait im confused, i thought that other guy said Ohm Meter is the measuring of friction of metal. So how come you mention a lion?

[aqua_scummm]

Oh simply to prove the point I made in the post before, that I have a lot of junk in my photobucket just wainting to be used.


But yes, hardwear stores sell them, look for an ohm meter or a multmeter, they require batteries, often odd litium ones, so check the packaging.

[Jimmykaboots]

Oh simply to prove the point I made in the post before, that I have a lot of junk in my photobucket just wainting to be used.


But yes, hardwear stores sell them, look for an ohm meter or a multmeter, they require batteries, often odd litium ones, so check the packaging.

O ok thanks, im eager to find out if I have a TI valve, wouldn't that be neat lol. I'd sell it in a heartbeat if I did have it. :D Probably don;'t though.

[Phantom Power]

Resistance of something (usually a metal wire) depends on both the length of the object (this is the distance between the points you contact with your ohmmeter), the cross sectional area of the object, and the resistivity of the material. Resistivity of materials is temperature dependant.

R = (resistivity * length)/area

So ideally to use the ohmmeter to determine if a valve it Ti, we have to measure a SS one at room temperature (20 degrees celsius) from given points (directly across the valve would work. It's a cylinder so the diameter will the be the same no matter the orientation) and then make sure you do the same measurements on every other valve you test to compare.

I'll be at my shop later this week where I have access to a fairly high quality multimeter. I'll try and get some actual numbers from my Mag valve and work out what a Ti one should read.

Using the numbers that back2integrity posted above, if a SS valve weighs 10.6g that yields a volume of (10.6g / 7.750g/cm^3) = 1.368 cm^3
If that volume were made of Titanium, it would have a mass of (1.368 x 4.507 g/cm^3) = 6.164 g

Of course, those numbers assume that the whole mass 10.6g is composed of SS for the measured valve and all its components, and that every component made in SS was made in Ti for these sought after valves. If we knew exactly which parts were made of Ti then a more accurate value could be obtained.

[Ninjeff]

They definitely should (it will likely be a multimeter), but you'll need to know electronics basics to use it:

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b282/mattpace/16402199.gif


:rofl: :rofl:

[Tao]

12.7g w/ on/off and PT tip and Macro fitting (no bolt)

12.0g w/ on/off and tip (no bolt)

11.6g w/ PT tip but no on/off (and no bolt)

10.6g w/ no on/off or PT tip or bolt or nut (11.1g with nut)

Thanks

[koleah]

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b282/mattpace/16402199.gif

Holy Cow I nearly choked on my dinner laughing at that thing!


On a slightly more serious note, whats the group's feeling toward how a small out-of-the-way test grind mark will affect the resale value on the non-Ti valves? Maybe done where it can't be seen like underneath where it would be covered up by the rail.

K

Edit: I ask because I sense some hesitance to start grinding to check, but I dont' think a small unnoticeable grind mark will affect anything really. Next time I've got the cutting wheel out, I'll be checking my old valves, resale be darned.

[aqua_scummm]

I was thinking of the back of the valve, like right next to the velocity adjuster, placing it flat against a grinding wheel.


I dunno, as long as it's invisible, can't go hurting the stigma that mags are the best looking markers available!

I'm going to examine other means, including going to the local headshop to price out scales

[p8ntbal4me]

I was thinking of the back of the valve, like right next to the velocity adjuster, placing it flat against a grinding wheel.


I dunno, as long as it's invisible, can't go hurting the stigma that mags are the best looking markers available!

I'm going to examine other means, including going to the local headshop to price out scales


Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat???

IONs ARE NOT THE BESTEST UBER CANNON EVA!!???

Pssssshhh :rolleyes:

[PhoenixWolf]

I've got a valve, CF49336. It is faintly magnetic when tested with rare earth magnet. Unfortunately, titanium is also slightly magnetic, and it's a question of whether stainless steel or titanium is more magnetic. Compared to my titanium Leatherman, it's a lighter color, but the Leatherman is not polished and has a rather unfinished surface. The only way I know to test it is to take it to my local store and compare magnetic attraction. I'll be able to feel the difference if they're made of different material.

[robertsr1811]

Guys!

You don't need to grind the valve flat to find out if it's stainless or not. Just touch it to a wheel. We're talking about a single scuff. I tested all 4 of my classic valves last night, and don't think I've affected the resale of a single one. Sheesh! Just tap the sucker on a grinder for a fraction of a second and be done with it. I have a scuff smaller than a pencil eraser on the bottom of the valve where it won't show...

I'm not really sure what the big deal is.

[Bigcountry]

The glass plate isn't working because you don't use glass for that test. You need unglazed ceramic. Try the bottom of a coffee mug or the underside of an unused floor tile (even better.) Steel and Titanium should leave different color streaks, but without testing I don't know what those colors should be.

~Big

[RavishingEddie]

Resistance of something (usually a metal wire) depends on both the length of the object (this is the distance between the points you contact with your ohmmeter), the cross sectional area of the object, and the resistivity of the material. Resistivity of materials is temperature dependant.

R = (resistivity * length)/area

So ideally to use the ohmmeter to determine if a valve it Ti, we have to measure a SS one at room temperature (20 degrees celsius) from given points (directly across the valve would work. It's a cylinder so the diameter will the be the same no matter the orientation) and then make sure you do the same measurements on every other valve you test to compare.

I'll be at my shop later this week where I have access to a fairly high quality multimeter. I'll try and get some actual numbers from my Mag valve and work out what a Ti one should read.

Using the numbers that back2integrity posted above, if a SS valve weighs 10.6g that yields a volume of (10.6g / 7.750g/cm^3) = 1.368 cm^3
If that volume were made of Titanium, it would have a mass of (1.368 x 4.507 g/cm^3) = 6.164 g

Of course, those numbers assume that the whole mass 10.6g is composed of SS for the measured valve and all its components, and that every component made in SS was made in Ti for these sought after valves. If we knew exactly which parts were made of Ti then a more accurate value could be obtained.


Man, thanks alot I am taking AC electronics right now and I followed everything you said, but where did you get the 4.507 value? is it the mass measurement for TI? One should tell right away then if it is Ti because it would have a noticeable difference it Ohms.

[Phantom Power]

4.507 g/cm^3 is the density of Titanium that I obtained from some chemistry site I got from a google search.

I've also realised that those weights that were posted are totally incorrect. They may be in ounces, but a Mag valve certainly doesn't weigh 10 grams. A paintball weighs 3g, and a Mag valve weighs more than 3 paintballs. I'll weigh my valve when I'm at my shop next.

[Redkey]

Howdy folks... About 100 feet from my desk I have a Scanning Electron Microscope that is equiped with and EDS system we use it on an almost daily basis to determine the chemical compositions of steel and aluminum alloys. It can measure a wide range of elements including Ti. It's completely none destructive since we're just bombarding the target with a stream of electrons and then measuring the Xrays given off as electrons are knocked out of their orbits.

So... if it's necessary to completely verify the composition of a valve I can help... for free.

[going_home]

Howdy folks... About 100 feet from my desk I have a Scanning Electron Microscope that is equiped with and EDS system we use it on an almost daily basis to determine the chemical compositions of steel and aluminum alloys. It can measure a wide range of elements including Ti. It's completely none destructive since we're just bombarding the target with a stream of electrons and then measuring the Xrays given off as electrons are knocked out of their orbits.

So... if it's necessary to completely verify the composition of a valve I can help... for free.

By monday you will have about 3000 valves on your doorstep.
Are you sure about your offer ?
:confused:

[kiltedpainter]

Whoever had the idea to use an ohm-meter should get a cookie. 304 Stainless Steel and Ti should have fairly different electrical resistances. Pure Titanium has a constant resistance of .420 μΩ or .420 micro-ohms (the prefix micro means 10^-6) The resistance of steel should actually be considerably lower due to its iron composition, somewhere in the ball park of 1000 times lower if my google-fu serves me well.


Feel free to correct me if I am wrong but this seems like the easiest non-marring method of testing one's valve/regulator.


TK, If I happen to have one of these titanium valves, could I trade it for a new X-Valve, Level 10 bolt, Tac-One warp-right body, y frame, and a warp feed instead of cash?

[LoveMyMagMoreThanYou]

Whoever had the idea to use an ohm-meter should get a cookie. 304 Stainless Steel and Ti should have fairly different electrical resistances. Pure Titanium has a constant resistance of .420 μΩ or .420 micro-ohms (the prefix micro means 10^-6) The resistance of steel should actually be considerably lower due to its iron composition, somewhere in the ball park of 1000 times lower if my google-fu serves me well.


Feel free to correct me if I am wrong but this seems like the easiest non-marring method of testing one's valve/regulator.


TK, If I happen to have one of these titanium valves, could I trade it for a new X-Valve, Level 10 bolt, Tac-One warp-right body, y frame, and a warp feed instead of cash?

You stole my idea, except I was going to ask for a Warp-left E-tac.....LOL

:cheers:

[aqua_scummm]

I was going to ask for a new classic valve and two NIB sydarms

[Thanna]

I hate to say this... but didn't TK say that the valve was a Ti alloy ? That means it won't have the properties of pure Ti.

[kiltedpainter]

I hate to say this... but didn't TK say that the valve was a Ti alloy ? That means it won't have the properties of pure Ti.


That may be the case, however because it is mostly Ti (hence why it's referred to as a Ti alloy) it should still have a resistance in the magnitude of several hundred to a thousand times higher, like I previously said. Thus, that test should still work.

[Don Carnage]

So, if I find the golden ticket… er… I mean, titanium valve, do I get to visit the AGD factory and meet the oompa loompas? :D

[Minnesota111]

What about some kind of chemical reaction test? Back in college, I used various acids and bases to distinguish different minerals. Could the same thing be done here?

[Dryden]

So, if I find the golden ticket… er… I mean, titanium valve, do I get to visit the AGD factory and meet the oompa loompas? :D
I would advise you NOT eat the Everlasting Pepperballs.

[zazzoo]

So, if I find the golden ticket… er… I mean, titanium valve, do I get to visit the AGD factory and meet the oompa loompas? :D
Is it bad i thought about posting something like this too, when i read this thread?

[slade]

They definitely should (it will likely be a multimeter), but you'll need to know electronics basics to use it:

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b282/mattpace/16402199.gif
where did you get that? and can i have permission to copy it? <.<


What about some kind of chemical reaction test? Back in college, I used various acids and bases to distinguish different minerals. Could the same thing be done here?
personally, i'd spark a valve before dropping acid on it.

[originalspyderxtra]

Howdy folks... About 100 feet from my desk I have a Scanning Electron Microscope that is equiped with and EDS system we use it on an almost daily basis to determine the chemical compositions of steel and aluminum alloys. It can measure a wide range of elements including Ti. It's completely none destructive since we're just bombarding the target with a stream of electrons and then measuring the Xrays given off as electrons are knocked out of their orbits.

So... if it's necessary to completely verify the composition of a valve I can help... for free.


i was actually on my way to this thread to suggest using an electron microscope. i wish i had one myself cause i dont feel like sending my valve out and waiting on an answer. though maybe i can give it to my cousin and he could do it at college......

[T F]

This is the tale of Archimedes. Replace Heiro with Tom Kaye and you have a great story.

Now - all of you - go take a bath.

TF

[aqua_scummm]

where did you get that? and can i have permission to copy it? <.<


personally, i'd spark a valve before dropping acid on it.
I think its from toothpastefordinner.com

And go for it, it's not mine

[RobAGD]

Hahah Tom you sure stirred up the guys on this one ;)

The thousands of valves we handled and never found one :(

What year did you all make those ?

I would assume with a number set 40-50k or 4-5k MiniMag they would absolute turn valves ?

BTW guys, valve means PT to Reg Housing, nothing inside. Thats if they made the valves complete, it could just be the Reg Housing and Main Valve Body with standard SS PT's

Have you checked the bin of killed and condemded valves ?

-Robert

[latches109]

I feel like I'm looking for the golden ticket so I can take a tour of the factory.

[Tao]

I feel like I'm looking for the golden ticket so I can take a tour of the factory.

Hey Tom does a personal tour of AGD come with your offer for a titanium valve? :rofl:

[kiltedpainter]

Can anyone establish the density of a valve known to be stainless steel? All that needs to be done is find the mass and then immerse it in a graduated cylinder to determine the volume. once that is established, any valve with a considerably lower density that this established steel valve is obviously titanium.

TK, i'm sure you have a definitively steel powertube/valve/reg assembly somewhere that you could find and establish the density of 304 SS for us. Would you mind doing that?

[slade]

steel weighs .2836 pounds per square inch, titanium .1621. those numbers may differ slightly depending on the alloy.

[LoveMyMagMoreThanYou]

steel weighs .2836 pounds per square inch, titanium .1621. those numbers may differ slightly depending on the alloy.

Did you mean cubic inch? I guarantee that 4 sq in of 1" thick steel weighs more than 4sq in of 1/4" thick steel.............. :) :D

[slade]

yeah, cubic inch. its hard to assign a mass to an area.

[MiniSpdRcr]

So what would be the easiest way to tell?

[slade]

So what would be the easiest way to tell?
spark it against a grinding wheel. if you dont want to damage the valve, weigh it or use an ohmeter.

[Shingo]

Would it be possible that PTP got hold of the Ti valves... like a MicroMag valve? Wondering if it's limited to AGD classics only.

And if it does turn out to be a MicroMag Valve, would it make it's value higher since there are far fewer MicoMags then there are AGD Mags.

~Shingo~

[p8ntbal4me]

Would it be possible that PTP got hold of the Ti valves... like a MicroMag valve? Wondering if it's limited to AGD classics only.

And if it does turn out to be a MicroMag Valve, would it make it's value higher since there are far fewer MicoMags then there are AGD Mags.

~Shingo~


I was thinking the same thing.

Ive got 1 classic, but a few micro and mini around here,...

[Soopa Villain17]

ill have to check the mini mag i have coming in the mail. cool

[maglover728]

I have a gold plated mag #gg0009. I was told that there were only 10 of these made. Is that correct or are the X# of Ti still more rare? Please lmk.

[AGD]

There were only about a dozen gold plated mag parts. Fewer were made into whole guns. If you have a complete one its very very rare.

AGD

[ProblemKinder]

I have a gold plated mag #gg0009. I was told that there were only 10 of these made. Is that correct or are the X# of Ti still more rare? Please lmk.

do we get to see a picture? :D

[Duzzy]

I have a gold plated mag #gg0009. I was told that there were only 10 of these made. Is that correct or are the X# of Ti still more rare? Please lmk.

I've got a semi complete one. Unfortunately it ended up with a pump kit...

[peewee]

I've got a semi complete one. Unfortunately it ended up with a pump kit...

Duzzy are you still thinking about selling it & are you going to make Epog this month?? Its the 25th.

[p8ntbal4me]

There were only about a dozen gold plated mag parts. Fewer were made into whole guns. If you have a complete one its very very rare.

AGD


This thread just keeps getting better and better!

AGD needs to get some photos of these "classic beauties" and stick them in the AGD gallery.

I wish I had some of these guns. :(

[Doobie]

Kinda upset I traded my classic for an RT valve now. :(

[punkncat]

There were only about a dozen gold plated mag parts. Fewer were made into whole guns. If you have a complete one its very very rare.

AGD

Do you or anyone know if there was a company doing these aftermarket?

A good friend of mine had and may still have one that was completly gold plated. Metal frame, powerfeed, classic valve, some really short barrel with no porting....For some reason I am thinking it may have been a micro body rather than standard. Not sure.

What would one of those be worth today IF it were made up of original parts?

[p8ntbal4me]

Hey Tom;

While we're on the subject of rare guns and parts,... I have another one to ask you about!

This is a photo taken from the 2001 Zap IAO.

Cynthia formally of Adventure Games was there and took some pictures of the E-Mag showing along with the, then new, Intelli-Frame.

I remember seeing these 2 guns from another angle and it got me thinking when the last time I saw E-Mag bodies like these.

The are rail and body combos. Covering almost the entire valve in the back, with a rather blockish look to them.

Lol,... its your hands holding them, so I figured you would know the answer to the question.

Uni-body X-Mags (blue and red) (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4985843)

Any guesses where these bad boys are?

I was thinking maybe that you had those 2 bodies only half milled and annoed in a rush for the event, but then again I figured you were Tom Kaye,.. and Tom Kaye does not do work as such!

The other thing that had me thinking the bodies had been out for a while was this photo of Renick Miller (BBT) and Ryan holding an X-Mag that looks nothing like the same milling

Renick Miller (BBT) and Ryan (Aftershock) with the new X-Mag (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4985885)

Figured there has to be something to the bodies looking like that.

[Rudz]

the red and blue are emag extremes, i think, and the aftershock one is an sfl emag, i know there were some sfl emags on aftershock, sfl emags number somewhere around 25 -35 ever created, i have one, lol, the emag extremes or are the euros? one and the same? both came before cnc xmags

[RogueFactor]

Uni-body X-Mags (blue and red) (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4985843)

Non-CNC XMag.


The other thing that had me thinking the bodies had been out for a while was this photo of Renick Miller (BBT) and Ryan holding an X-Mag that looks nothing like the same milling

Renick Miller (BBT) and Ryan (Aftershock) with the new X-Mag (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4985885)

Shocktech SFL.

[Rudz]

Non-CNC XMag.



Shocktech SFL.


bad boy toys distrubuted the sfl's didnt they?

[p8ntbal4me]

Non-CNC XMag.



Shocktech SFL.


Am I correct in saying that the rail and body are merged together Rogue?

I was only there, and got real close to take a look at them.

Obviously I didnt know at the time that they came the way they do now (or did come would be better said).

Other than these 2, I have never seen another like them.

[rkjunior303]

bad boy toys distrubuted the sfl's didnt they?

BBT *IS* Shocktech.

[robertsr1811]

Do you or anyone know if there was a company doing these aftermarket?

A good friend of mine had and may still have one that was completly gold plated. Metal frame, powerfeed, classic valve, some really short barrel with no porting....For some reason I am thinking it may have been a micro body rather than standard. Not sure.

What would one of those be worth today IF it were made up of original parts?

Pro-Team put out a gold plated finish on their guns. I don't know how many of them were sold. This is the only photo I have of the finish. This is on a Micro-emag but it would get the idea across.

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g21/robertsr1811/e-Mag-Micro-24K-Gold-Plated.jpg

[Rudz]

Am I correct in saying that the rail and body are merged together Rogue?

I was only there, and got real close to take a look at them.

Obviously I didnt know at the time that they came the way they do now (or did come would be better said).

Other than these 2, I have never seen another like them.

yes they are unibodies

[ClassicMagger]

Hey AGD:

The valve won't be attracted by a magnet at all, either, will it?

Thats what I thought.

ClassicMagger@hotmail.com but I'm not really looking to sell.

Thanks,

-ClassicMagger

Edit:

BTW- Tom-if I remember correctly you guys used to have either minimag bodies in a nickel or chrome "black" Do these still exist?

Thanks.

[aqua_scummm]

Hey AGD:

The valve won't be attracted by a magnet at all, either, will it?

Thats what I thought.

ClassicMagger@hotmail.com but I'm not really looking to sell.

Thanks,

-ClassicMagger
Both SS and Ti have very very mild magnetic properties

[Jimmykaboots]

classic magger you have a TI valve?!

[wjr]

Hey AGD:

The valve won't be attracted by a magnet at all, either, will it?

Thats what I thought.

ClassicMagger@hotmail.com but I'm not really looking to sell.

Thanks,

-ClassicMagger


I'm going ot borrow a term from PBN here-

"Pics or shens"

[Rudz]

shens

[Jimmykaboots]

whats a shen?

[aqua_scummm]

Shens is a term stolen from the infamous genmay forums, short for shenanigans.


A lot has been lost in the translation :(


And if he's basing this off a magnetic test, the accuracy of it would be easy to dispute, as both will attract a higher power (such as a neodymium iron boron) magnet, but not a basic fridge magnet

[Jimmykaboots]

hey do you know if the valve includes the spring part in the front? or is it just the back? i dont know where to slam it against the grinding wheel lol, i don't hve the patience to use a odmeter test, no wait a oh meter, oho meter, CRUD how do you say it? I remember a guy explaining it once, and it said OMG ITS A LION, GET IN THE CAR! Thats all I remember lol. I also don't have an accurate scale, bathroom scales don't work for it haha. So where do I put it against the griding wheel? White sparks is TI and orange sparks is SS right?

[slade]

White sparks is TI and orange sparks is SS right?
yes.

if anyone REALLY wanted, i could take a video of sparking both titanium and steel against a wheel, but i'd need to know in the next 5 minutes.

[Jimmykaboots]

YES SPARK THOSE BABIES! I need to know what to look for...

[slade]

YES SPARK THOSE BABIES! I need to know what to look for...
too late. maybe tomorrow.

[behemoth]

YES SPARK THOSE BABIES! I need to know what to look for...

Steel sparks orange.

Ti will spark white.

[aqua_scummm]

seriously, it will be very obvious either way if it white or orange

[Jimmykaboots]

well its kinda hard seeing the color if you're wearing welding googles eh?

[ProblemKinder]

why wear goggles? :tard:

[slade]

well, WELDING goggles, just wear normal clear safety goggles.

[Jimmykaboots]

CTS teacher says safety first. His class his rules, everytime we use something that sparks or lights up we have to wear welding googles.

[Pneumagger]

CTS teacher says safety first. His class his rules, everytime we use something that sparks or lights up we have to wear welding googles.

That's kinda retarded. I always try and get away with my eye glasses. They're so AGG :rolleyes:
Are you sure they aren't just tinted goggles that you're mistaking as "welding googles"

[slade]

welding goggles? are you kidding me? that would be so unsafe, you cant see anything with a welding mask on.

[txaggie08]

wearing welding goggles while using a grinder is like giving a four year old a loaded .22 and saying "play soldier".

[Jimmykaboots]

doesnt help the grinder is black, and my gloves are black, i can barely see out of them, yea im sure they are welding googles, they have the big metal face shield in front and the head harness around the top. I'll try and get away with just safety goggles next time haha.

[behemoth]

wearing welding goggles while using a grinder is like giving a four year old a loaded .22 and saying "play soldier".

I dont know what you guys are talking about.

My welding goggles are clear.

Well, sometimes.

[Jimmykaboots]

Not when welding with female partners, wh00t!

[behemoth]

Not when welding with female partners, wh00t!
Do you smoke rocks?

[SCpoloRicker]

Do you smoke rocks?

Welcome to the Internet. ;)

/I think

[Jimmykaboots]

depends what kind of rocks, pebbles are kinda hard to heat up, marble and limestone are ok though. Rock candy is the best.

[Dark Side]

Yes he does.

[skife]

Pro-Team put out a gold plated finish on their guns. I don't know how many of them were sold. This is the only photo I have of the finish. This is on a Micro-emag but it would get the idea across.

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g21/robertsr1811/e-Mag-Micro-24K-Gold-Plated.jpg




i think they made 1.

the rest were gold anno.


its been a few years since i've seen that gun.
but it looks way way better in person.

never been shot, 1 owner(as far as i know) Mike from fantasy paintball / Mayhem sportz


he's got one post on AO
http://www.automags.org/forums/member.php?u=3440

[93civiccpe]

no one has found one of these titanium valves yet??

[skife]

no one has found one of these titanium valves yet??


needle in a haystack.

[RRfireblade]

i think they made 1.

the rest were gold anno.


its been a few years since i've seen that gun.
but it looks way way better in person.

never been shot, 1 owner(as far as i know) Mike from fantasy paintball / Mayhem sportz


he's got one post on AO
http://www.automags.org/forums/member.php?u=3440

Yup , that was it. It was done by a local plater/Jeweler here. Amazing job he did on it.

[skife]

Yup , that was it. It was done by a local plater/Jeweler here. Amazing job he did on it.


agreed.

[peteex]

came across this automag valve in a recent deal. the color is different that any other ones i'v seen. the weight is about the same as others. the # is cf00184, the patent is pending (so should be early production ones?if than shouldn't be ti right?). heres some pics: http://picasaweb.google.com/peteex/Going4TiBaby

[Dewok82]

100% not titanium, the serial number is waayyy too low.

Pretty cool though, that's the 84th Automag valve made.

[TrracerAce]

My valve reads CF06091 and the finish isn't as sharp as it should be. Looks like the lathe toolbit got dull on this one during the finish cut. Also, the on/off recess is a few thou too shallow considering the tolerances I'm familiar with on these.

Contender?

Also: grinding with a tinted welding mask? How many fingers do you have left? :tard:

[maglover728]

Well, I hate to do this but that gold mag I posted about several pages back is now for sale in the markers section of the B/S/T area. Just a shameless plug.

[questionful]

I thought somebody found a titanium valve!
:mad:

[slade]

Well, I hate to do this
then why did you?

[questionful]

then why did you?
that gold mag he posted about several pages back is now for sale in the markers section of the B/S/T area.

[slade]

that gold mag he posted about several pages back is now for sale in the markers section of the B/S/T area.
...

/pwnt.

[maglover728]

Need the money to get back to central Wisconsin. Thats why.

[zipity_Bop]

I guarantee there is no Ti Valve Tom created an elaborate story to fool you all..... He's getting a good laugh watching you grind your Valves...

[A-Tach-One]

I guarantee there is no Ti Valve Tom created an elaborate story to fool you all..... He's getting a good laugh watching you grind your Valves...
Oh, sounds like you already tried it......

[zipity_Bop]

Oh, sounds like you already tried it......
sniffle :cry:

[SGranier]

This thread is great. I just spent likely the last half an hour reading the whole thing. Best of luck to everyone, I'm off to go check out my valve!

[warpfeedmod]

Talk about raising the dead here.

I didn't read through the entire thread, but one thing to note about Ti is that its not a good conductor of electricity. I'm not sure how that compares to stainless steel, but is that maybe a lead to take to test a valve without grinding/ruining it?

[mr doo doo]

hahahah wow, that is pretty cool, titanium valves?!?! wowzers. i bet the titanium valves are sitting under some dirty laundry, or even... dont even want to think about it...

[Demonio]

The one mag I sold probably had a Ti valve :cry:
and I'll never know

[longi]

I belive my friend has a Pro Mag valve, he's had the thing for years. It doesn't get used a hole lot these days as he uses an Emag. Still works a treat!

[flyingpootang]

I guarantee there is no Ti Valve Tom created an elaborate story to fool you all..... He's getting a good laugh watching you grind your Valves...

I don't think Tom would lie about making proto type valves to save weight. AGD has always been about leading/cutting-edge technology.

[Paintchucker]

I guarantee there is no Ti Valve Tom created an elaborate story to fool you all..... He's getting a good laugh watching you grind your Valves...



I don't think Tom would lie about making proto type valves to save weight. AGD has always been about leading/cutting-edge technology.


Perhaps, but then again, I still remember the spoof he did on the crown point barrel's "advanced technology" a couple years ago... :ninja:

[longi]

Take it from me, he's not pulling your leg! In fact i've met John Sosta on numerous occasions. In fact i was first introduced to the Pro Mag valve in 1994 by a gentleman called Ashley Wright who in fact was the salesman for DAC barrels. He also used to guest for the Ironmen team when Bob Long was their Captain! I can remenber him showing the valve to me and him trying to get me to sell my Tippman ProAm and buy a Mag. His just happened to be a Pro Magged valve. I also remember John Bonich talking to me about the Pro Mag virtues. Both John Sosta aand John Bonich were the people to see if you needed work doing to them. The Pro Mag valve was also relatively easy to obtain here in England as they were made here, so we got first dibs on them for a change! I also still bump into Mr. Sosta and Mr. Bonich from time to time, next time i see them i'll ask them about them. For the record it was John Sosta who gave us the X-Mag, he now tinkers around with Timmy's, although i belive he still has a couple of Mags. John Bonich still uses one of the first RT mags that came into England. Belive me it still rips! :shooting:

[Thotograph]

I still remember the spoof he did on the crown point barrel's "advanced technology" a couple years ago... :ninja:

I think you're refering to the use of a NACA type duct that was featured on the crown points right? Those ducts are from formula one and the aviation industry... what they do for a paintball in flight is debateable but they are not some spoof as far as how they function in their true appliactions. Everyone's trying to out market the other but I don't think the use of a real world innovation like a NACA duct is a spoof. It may not be a huge improvement but I still think it's a cool idea to apply a real world piece of engineering to pb. Lol those barrels were funny, I had one back in the day... I put a rubber band around the front so it didn't resonate everytime I shot my gun, "diiiing." Classic :p

[Paintchucker]

I think you're refering to the use of a NACA type duct that was featured on the crown points right? Those ducts are from formula one and the aviation industry... what they do for a paintball in flight is debateable but they are not some spoof as far as how they function in their true appliactions. Everyone's trying to out market the other but I don't think the use of a real world innovation like a NACA duct is a spoof. It may not be a huge improvement but I still think it's a cool idea to apply a real world piece of engineering to pb. Lol those barrels were funny, I had one back in the day... I put a rubber band around the front so it didn't resonate everytime I shot my gun, "diiiing." Classic :p

No Actually, It is a very old post from back in 2002 and this was what I was referring to...



11" Crown Point Barrels BUY ONE NOW!!!

Here is an 11" Crown Point Barrel. Hold on a minute while I put my barrel marketing hat on..... ok here is why this is the best barrel in the world.

The most important feature is the Crown Point itself. A paintball is a light fragile object that is transitioning at high speed from a contained area out into the cruel world. The transition happens quickly and violently as the airflow completely changes polarity around the ball as it goes from being pushed by a tail wind to going into a 200 mph headwind. This dramatic, high speed reversal of airflow confuses the ball as it tries to find the path of least resistance. During the turbulent transition phase the ball can see uneven airflow and that means uneven air pressure on any part of it's surface. This uneven pressure PUSHES your ball off it intended path and DIRECTLY and IMMEDEATELY affects your ACCURACY!!!

I can even PROVE it to you!! Ever drop a rock or marble into the water? Did it EVER go straight in?? NO it ALWAYS did something stupid before it sank to the bottom. The EXACT same thing happens when that poor light little paintball sees the light of day with a 200 mph blast in the face!!

How much do you think getting off only a few thousandths of an inch at the beginning of the balls flight affects the aim point all the way down range? Ask yourself, where is the LAST place I want to mess with the trajectory of the ball. RIGHT AT THE BEGINING!!!

Now think back, how many times have you shot your marker and watched that ball leave the barrel and do a nice straight smooth arc and TOTALLY MISS THE TARGET!!! Once? Twice? NO! It happens ALL THE TIME!! The airflow reversal gremlins got you again!

So you went out and got that boomstick and it was better. The stepped barrels try and accomplish the same thing by stepping the barrel and degassing the air pressure behind it. This allows the ball to see a headwind before it leaves. GREAT you say, BUT NO!! THEY ARE MISSING THE POINT!! The stepped barrels are BIGGER in the last half and the ball STILL is getting hammered around in there BEFORE it leaves!! Think I am lying? POWDER YOUR BARREL AND FIND OUT! Go home crying to your momma when you find out your lame accuracy is due to your lack of physics knowledge.

LISTEN to me, doesn't this make sense? If you had to transition something from inside to outside would you do it fast or slow? Would you do it SMOOTH or rough? ALL AT ONCE, or a little, at a ....time.

The crack engineering team here at BFL spends days thinking about how this stuff works. We knew that ANY small improvement in the transition area would mean MAJOR increase in accuracy down range! We watched as the balls jinked right out of the barrel and knew there had to be a better way.

That better way gentlemen is the Crown Point Barrel!!

The triangular cutouts in the barrel tip, the Crown Points, allow the barrel to "fade away gradually" as the ball moves from the safe confinement of the barrel bore to the massive airflow of the outside world. While the ball is adjusting to it's new environment, little at a time, the points are still holding it on course and ON TARGET! At the end of the transition phase the points are almost gone, and the ball is free to continue on it's way fully stabilized with a smooth airflow and completely on target!!!

How long does this take to get the ball "WET" with the outside world? About the length of the ball. When you dive in the pool, how long does it take to get you wet? About the length of your body! The Crown Points assure complete stability by being THREE TIMES longer than the ball! Any more is a COMPLETE WAIST of time. This is physically, simply and LOGICALLY the shortest possible accurate barrel configuration on the planet.

Why DO you have that long tube with holes on the end of your barrel? Like the length? Like the weight? Like paying for all those holes? Like CLEANING them even more? Thought they DID something? Cause pros use them? Think Michael Jordan wears the same Nike's you buy at the store? Your buddy’s shoots darts? You ever seen a crown point shoot? Or are you comparing it to that other tube with holes? Think the laws of physics work different in your neighborhood? Think if you shot out of a tube at 200 mph you wouldn't have any issues? A paintball is a bag of fluid, you are a bag of fluid, which do you think would be more accurate?


Stick with science, your accuracy will improve, your game will get better. Your friends will respect you and you will get picked first to play. You will be a leader and explain to everyone why you are so good and your gun is SO accurate! They will think your crazy at first but when you snap shoot them out they will stop dissing you and ask where to get one. Then you will experience that special feeling inside, you won't say anything, because you know you won on and off the field.

Buy a Crown Point Barrel and BE somebody!!



Link to original thread: http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=21931

As I recall, it came about after a discussion between Tom and one of his industry buddies about whether the "AGD Masses" would just blindly accept anything that Tom said as the gospel...

[Smoothice]

No Actually, It is a very old post from back in 2002 and this was what I was referring to...



Link to original thread: http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=21931

As I recall, it came about after a discussion between Tom and one of his industry buddies about whether the "AGD Masses" would just blindly accept anything that Tom said as the gospel...


Best thread I have ever read


So if you were a paintball playing dinosaur you would figure “BORE SIZE” was it.

:rofl: :rofl:

[Pneumagger]

BORE SIZE

The uninformed have asked the question “What about bore size?” It has been asked 1000 times, it will be asked 1000 more. Countless dollars will be spent on “BORE SIZE”. Thousands of hours will be spent on “BORE SIZE”. Inaccuracy will be blamed on “BORE SIZE”. Games will be won or lost on “BORE SIZE”. Barrel manufacturers will tell you it’s not accurate because you didn’t have the right “BORE SIZE”. You will spend over a hundred dollars on an aluminunum tube because it has just the right “BORE SIZE”. Somewhere in the world there is a player somewhere who has the perfect “BORE SIZE” is just seems we can never figure out who it is…..

What is the right “BORE SIZE”? Why is it so important to get the right “BORE SIZE”? Those seem like good questions, they seem like important questions, hell they even seem like the right questions! But, they are not the FUNDAMENTAL question.

Gentelemen, the fundamental question is this:

Do you even NEED bore size????

First of all to get a bore size you positively, absoulutely MUST have a BORE!! A bore is a good thing, it contains your paintball, it holds on to your air pressure, it gets your ball moving. If you were like most of the sad pathetic little paintballers in the world you would say “my bore works great!” and the barrel manufacturers would say “sure it is! Here is another one!! It has a different bore size!!” Mr Sad-and-Pathetic says “sure here is my hundred bucks” and life goes on, and on, and on, and on until the world is FILLED with bore sizes. Bore sizes have dominated the world for millions of years, just like the dinosaurs! Were dinosaurs any smarter? NO! Were warm blooded mammals better? YES! How come no one noticed the mammals were better? BECAUSE THE WORLD WAS FILLED WITH DINOSAURS!! There were big ones and little ones (kind of like bore sizes). There were colored ones (also like barrels) there were professional Raptors and amateur Triceratops. And the wise proclaimed “If warm blooded was SO GOOD why isn’t EVERYONE USING IT??” Dinosaurs had really small brains, you figure it out.

So if you were a paintball playing dinosaur you would figure “BORE SIZE” was it. Life would go on for another million years while the mammals squeeked in the the bushed drowned out by the cold blooded masses “we are better try us”. And the secret to true accuracy would stay hidden under a rock.

What do we say at BFL? SCREW BORE SIZE!!!!!! GET A BRAIN!!!

Expand those brain cells for a minute, come on now, try REALLY HARD! If the barrel is say 10” long, you think the first inch from the breach affects accuracy much? After all, the ball has another 9” of barrel to go before it launches. Naw it doesn’t matter that much, the rest of the barrel is doing the work. Well then, does the inch in the middle of the barrel do that much? Not enough brain cells to figure that out? Let me ask you this question, if the first 9” were perfect and the last inch was screwed up bad, you think the first 9 inches would count more than the last inch? HECK NO!! The last inch would make your accuracy go all to hell!! A barrel is only as good as the LAST INCH!!! Ask any real gun guy he will tell you the SAME THING!

So lets calmly review. Bore size is a good thing, we can agree on that, couldn’t get the ball going without it. The last inch is really important because it can screw up your whole barrel if it’s not right. But we digress, what was the fundamental question? Ah yes, do we really, REALLY need a ….bore….size…??

Only if your stupid enough to just use the bore. Hard to take? Am I calling you STUPID? Thinking about ALL THE OTHER bore sizes in the dinosaur dominated world? How big is your brain?

The Crown Point GOES BEYOND THE BORE to a new ADDITIONAL level of accuracy! The last inch counts right? IF the last inch is four tiny little points holding the ball EXACTLY on target while the air flows smoothly around the ball what does “BORE SIZE” have to do with it?? ABSOULUTELY NOTHING!! There IS NO BORE! Its only POINTS!! Just enough to do the job and NOT SCREW UP THE AIRFLOW! The “BORE SIZE” was way back in neverland, inches ago, yesterdays news, dead as pump guns, old as Mick Jagger.

The people with the puny brains literally can’t see past the end of their barrels! It’s like having wheels without tires, milkshakes without whip cream, and women without lingerie. Sure they work without them BUT WAY BETTER with them!!

Get rid of the bore and get a brain, you’ll be smarter to buy a Crown Point Barrel today from your friends who know at BFL.

:rofl:

[FiXeL]

From Ti valves to bore size? :confused:

[maxama10]

Well, just to get things rolling (maybe?)

I weighed my valve on my digi-scale.

Linky:

http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/maxama10/?action=view&current=DSC01641.jpg

http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/maxama10/?action=view&current=DSC01638.jpg

http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/maxama10/?action=view&current=DSC01637.jpg

http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/maxama10/?action=view&current=DSC01636.jpg

http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o179/maxama10/?action=view&current=DSC01635.jpg

Hope that helps somewhat. :) Good hunting to you all.

Edit: btw valve numer CF63317

[Renegadeoffunk]

I jsut got over 2,000 automag parts free from my dads work...(works at a granite company) they found their way there, and now my hands

LINK TO THREAD!...I thought maybe one has to be titanium...


http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2421093#post2421093

[EclipseClassic]

I have a sneaking suspicion that those valve didn't make into production, but made it into someone's own "personal" collection. Right or wrong, I bet that is what happened. Seems that way to me, like office supplies diminishing quickly at the office.

[Enigma4you]

I have a sneaking suspicion that those valve didn't make into production, but made it into someone's own "personal" collection. Right or wrong, I bet that is what happened. Seems that way to me, like office supplies diminishing quickly at the office.

Back in the day at Tagg in Good Ole Garner NC we had a classic hanging on the wall, We got it in trade. WE rebuilt the valve and put it up for sale. IT came back because it had issues. We traded the person another mag and he was very happy. I rebuilt it again and it would work fine for a while then crap out again.

I remember that the laser etching on the valve looked strange, and that the serial numbers did not match, the valve was in the 45k range. I called AGD and was told it was not good for a trade in (the X valve had just come out) We were messing around one night in the shop and I was showing one of the kids that worked there part time about the diff types of metal used in markers. (hed had a Intimidator that a screw had corrded and stuck in) I was useing screws on the grinder to show him the color of sparks that diff types of metal gave off. I used the bottom of that valve to show what stainless would do. IT sparked white. I had to look up white sparks to find out what they were.

I later talked to CPPHil about the valve and he said that he didnt think that AGD ever used anything other than stainless or alu. At that time I thought that that white sparks had been caused by contaminates on the wheel.

I have been out of PB for a long long time now, when I left TAGG I took my markers as well as my AUTOMAG tech kit. That valve was in the stuff I took. I gave most of the stuff away about a year ago, however I kept some valves and a couple of my markers. I will look again to see if I have that valve still and If I do Tom can have it free of charge. If I dont then it is someplace in Upstate SC.

I do know that history of the marker the valve was on.

Purchased from AGD by TAGG sometime mid to late 90s
Used By Mike the owner and sold to a Regular Customer in 01
Customer Traded in on one of the Last Xmags Purchased from AGD

If I find it I will let tom know Either way good luck.

[ThePixelGuru]

Woah. I didn't think anyone would ever find one...
Keep us updated! :cheers:

[questionful]

whoa. . . you found one. . . that's. . . I WANT IT GIVE IT TO ME NOW!!!!!!

[AGD]

Hummm....interesting.... Lets see if you find it.

AGD

[LK-13]

don't know if anyone has said this or not,
compared to Stainless Steel; Titanium has a slight amber tint to it.
it is very slight and varies with the exact alloy, it's easier to see in sun light than artificial light.
i have worked with both metals and in sun light i can spot the difference easily.
but that might just be because i know what to look for.

the Guggenheim Museum in Bilbao, Spain is clad in Titanium.
the Titanium plate really shows off the "Champagne" color of the metal.

http://www.guggenheim-bilbao.es/ingles/home.htm
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u215/LK-13/10016.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u215/LK-13/10024.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u215/LK-13/cid_1028276211_Bilbao_017.jpg

[spike_ball999]

The rest of these are probably sitting on someone's 'mag who doesn't know. Or in a garage. My mind is racing on where a paintball gun might end up.

Now, if one of the valves is found, at least we have a general range of what numbers to look for +/-10

[turbo chicken]

well did he find the valve???

[ProblemKinder]

it's alive....IT'S ALIVE!!!!

[Ratt]

well did he find the valve???

Well...??? Did he???

[Custom_Mags]

Hi Tom...It's Bob McP***, your favorite Radiologic Science Consultant.

Remember when we went to R** Hospital to use the fluoroscope to Xray some of your dino specimens and we got the mini-fluoroscope for you...? You may remember when we got back to the Factory, we were looking in a box of valves under your workbench. You gave me a valve that you said was unique in some way and I don't remember what way...I just dug it out of my parts box.

It has no markings/etchings on it at all...comparing it to a stock 68 valve, it appears duller and has a grayish color...it is non-functioning.

I took it to the Factory about a year ago to have Roman look at it and possibly rebuild it. He told me that he couldn't do anything with it because it was a non-standard valve. Dave Z. just happended to wander by right about that time and asked me where I got the valve and seemed slightly miffed, I just evaded his question figuring I might have something I'm not supposed to have!

I just happened on to this thread after just monitoring AO all these years so I Registered to post this...if you think it's worth it, I'll try to take some pictures to post!
:wow:

[surfbum]

Hi Tom...It's Bob McP***, your favorite Radiologic Science Consultant.

Remember when we went to R** Hospital to use the fluoroscope to Xray some of your dino specimens and we got the mini-fluoroscope for you...? You may remember when we got back to the Factory, we were looking in a box of valves under your workbench. You gave me a valve that you said was unique in some way and I don't remember what way...I just dug it out of my parts box.

It has no markings/etchings on it at all...comparing it to a stock 68 valve, it appears duller and has a grayish color...it is non-functioning.

I took it to the Factory about a year ago to have Roman look at it and possibly rebuild it. He told me that he couldn't do anything with it because it was a non-standard valve. Dave Z. just happended to wander by right about that time and asked me where I got the valve and seemed slightly miffed, I just evaded his question figuring I might have something I'm not supposed to have!

I just happened on to this thread after just monitoring AO all these years so I Registered to post this...if you think it's worth it, I'll try to take some pictures to post!
:wow:

ummm post pictars neow!
:eek:

[AGD]

Hi Bob!

Which work bench was it? In my office or in my shop? You will have to spark it to find out. If it came from the bench in the side room in my office its highly unlikely its a Ti valve.

AGD

[Custom_Mags]

Hi Bob!

Which work bench was it? In my office or in my shop? You will have to spark it to find out. If it came from the bench in the side room in my office its highly unlikely its a Ti valve.

AGD

The work bench just off the office... :cuss: ! I'll spark it just to be sure.
The internals of this valve are markedly different; the pin is larger in diameter and is hollow in the center. I remember you said you had experimented with low-pressure, do you think this is one of those?

Also, I have a line on a CABINET RADIOGRAPHIC unit for specimen radiography (for free :bounce: )...interested? :hail:

[AGD]

Also, I have a line on a CABINET RADIOGRAPHIC unit for specimen radiography (for free :bounce: )...interested? :hail:

Can it be shipped? Email me :)

[turbo chicken]

it's alive....IT'S ALIVE!!!!

see keeping it alive ... got it noticed and this one looks promising ...

[skife]

Bump to keep this on top.

any word on this tk?

[AGD]

No word

AGD

[sandfreestyle]

just curious, wat is the weight difference?

[skife]

No word

AGD


Thats weak, I'm sorry to hear that.

Good luck on your search.

[Chris Nearchos]

almost two years of searching an yet none to be found. either of the two possible ones mentioned here work out?

[Spencer]

HMM... someone design a automag valve make it out of titanium and sell it to AGD..

My valve weighs 329g

[joelbird]

i thought two where sold on ebay within the last 6 months. each batch sold for 850.00 and no one knew why the lot of "crappy" parts sold so high. but then someone said they were the missing valves one in each lot. can any one say for sure?

[Chris Nearchos]

???? very interesting joel. I almost forgot about them ebay sales. but i dont know what the out come was.

does anybody know the details?
-Chris

[Enemy]

holy thread resurection batman!!

:cuss: myself though im pretty sure my old classic was def. SS

[TeamJackal37]

Tom

I have Question, Is the 68 Automag and Minimag weight the same? LMK

[Enemy]

the valves are identical

[Chris Nearchos]

this should help as a visual. But imagine two classic valves instead......oh the horror!!!
-Chris

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y240/Chrisnearchos/titanium_485.jpg

[slade]

real titanium? so does fake titanium spark orange or white? we wouldn't want to mistake a fake titanium valve for a real titanium valve.

[Chris Nearchos]

lol....well if its "fake", then it wouldn'd be titanium now would it?

[olinar]

Ive got a classic valve that just doesnt look like any Ive had before.

Its serial number is 051**

any chances?

[questionful]

Ive got a classic valve that just doesnt look like any Ive had before.

Its serial number is 051**

any chances?
Well, FUBAR it on a grinding wheel and see. :rolleyes:

[maddboy32]

tom,
this thread was one of your best ideas EVER!!!!! :rofl:

[steve_81]

i think they made 1.

the rest were gold anno.


its been a few years since i've seen that gun.
but it looks way way better in person.

never been shot, 1 owner(as far as i know) Mike from fantasy paintball / Mayhem sportz


he's got one post on AO
http://www.automags.org/forums/member.php?u=3440


I've seen that marker personally several times. He has/had it in a wooden frame on display at his shop. I used to know mike from fantasy paintball...it used to be called M & M Paintball back in the day.

Thats crazy that you brought that up, i was thinking hey i know someone with a gold plated marker and then you mentioned Mike. Hes a pretty good guy.

[lastmanstanding]

This is one crazy long thread, I was hoping to kick it back to the top so everyone can atleast see it in efforts to find these very elusive valves.

[SuiciDal Sn Y p ER]

wow, that provided good reading and history

[BiNumber3]

i think i might have one, not sure tho:

density: approx. 4.3 g/cm3
weight: 2.7oz or 76.54g (standard steel one was 5oz)
volume: 18mL using a small cooking beaker

coloration: slightly darker than steel, both sanded down to 2000grit (yea i kno, but the valve was polished before it reached me, and the back half was unmarked and purple)

It's only the back half of the valve, bought it thinking it was a hurricane, but the anno was faded so I sanded it. Can Titanium alloy be annoed?
The density is higher than aluminum, unless i messed up with calculations or measurements.

aluminum with a density around 2.7g/cm3 should weigh around 48.6g... right?

edit: i went n did the spark test usin a dremel and comparing the spark to a steel screw, it's white, and an aluminum tube didnt spark at all
also, it's 8-hole modded, and it doesnt line up with any of my valves (the z-lock pin is way off when installed on one of my valves)

[zondo]

edit: i went n did the spark test usin a dremel and comparing the spark to a steel screw, it's white, and an aluminum tube didnt spark at all


:eek: wasn't Chris's post meant to be a joke (ie don't really do this but it works).

This would be sweet if it works out! :cheers:

[BiNumber3]

yea i only did it cuz it's not in pristine condition, i.e. u wont notice where i did the test:P but it seems there may have been a shocktech or hurricane made in titanium, if anyone could verify this?

also, i'm wondering, what if diamond labs got hold of these valves way back, knowing they were titanium anno'ed the backs, threw away the fronts n sold em? this might explain why noone's found a titanium classic valve? just a possibility

[dark blade]

i cannot confirm or disprove the hurricane or shocktech question, but i must say that if they have never made a titanium back, you are a very lucky man because your density is near spot on to a titanium alloy

[Flatliner333]

First time to see this thread...very interesting.I spoke to the guys next door in our Mechanical lab, (I work for a Nondestructive Testing facility XRay,Ultrasonics,Mag Particle Etc.....)He assures me it would be easy to tell the difference between S/S and TI by doing a PMI test (Positive Material Identification). I am going to test mine tomorrow and let you know what we find.If anyone is interested most NDE companies can perform this test and it is not abrasive or destructive to the material bieng tested.

[Brownstar]

First time reading this thread aswell, interesting stuff. I'm going to have go analyze my two valves.....

I hear another good way to test is if you shoot with the titanium valve, your paintballs turn into titanium also.

[FiXeL]

edit: i went n did the spark test usin a dremel and comparing the spark to a steel screw, it's white, and an aluminum tube didnt spark at all
also, it's 8-hole modded, and it doesnt line up with any of my valves (the z-lock pin is way off when installed on one of my valves)

If it gives a bright white spark, then most probably it's titanium. Steel gives orange sparks and stainless too, but less of it when you grind it.

[Flatliner333]

Up until today I was sure of only one person on earth who possessed a fabled Titanium Automag valve....and his name was D.B. Cooper. But now for the first time ever..after EXTENSIVE testing (Primarily Spark Testing on a grinding wheel) ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, I present to you the ever elusive, always reclusive ever so sought after most rarest and specialist valve of all time....... Let the bidding begin.








<a href="http://s382.photobucket.com/albums/oo263/patrickmason/?action=view&current=valvefubard.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo263/patrickmason/valvefubard.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

But seriously the PMI test we did today proved that my valve is not Titanium, it is stainless the count was about 301S/S.........the search continues

[om3n]

Up until today I was sure of only one person on earth who possessed a fabled Titanium Automag valve....and his name was D.B. Cooper. But now for the first time ever..after EXTENSIVE testing (Primarily Spark Testing on a grinding wheel) ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, I present to you the ever elusive, always reclusive ever so sought after most rarest and specialist valve of all time....... Let the bidding begin.






:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

But seriously the PMI test we did today proved that my valve is not Titanium, it is stainless the count was about 301S/S.........the search continues


:wow:

I almost crapped my paints after reading this...

you are not funny mr.

[Beemer]

:wow:

I almost crapped my paints after reading this...

you are not funny mr.

But what do you mean crapped your PAINTS. :spit_take Stop eating your paint. :nono:

He is Mr. funny, I laughed my :rofl: off

[BiNumber3]

Ok, bro got another camera, so made a video of me grinding the valve (lightly)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5y7JEneLcg

It's kind of hard to see the difference in the sparks tho due to the lighting and the camera, but it's as good as i can get it, and dont really wanna grind the valve much more than needed.

[snoopay700]

Ok, bro got another camera, so made a video of me grinding the valve (lightly)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5y7JEneLcg

It's kind of hard to see the difference in the sparks tho due to the lighting and the camera, but it's as good as i can get it, and dont really wanna grind the valve much more than needed.
I saw the difference, there was an orange outline around the allen key's sparks, i didn't see that on the valve's sparks. looks like it's a titanium back half, but the anno on it and everything leads me to believe that it's probably not one of the ones tom was talking about.

[BiNumber3]

yea that's what i was thinking, unless diamond labs bought those valves off agd n reused the valve backs, doubtful but don't think it's impossible

[snoopay700]

yea that's what i was thinking, unless diamond labs bought those valves off agd n reused the valve backs, doubtful but don't think it's impossible
I think tom would know if they did though, and i don't know why they would since the weight savings weren't much of weight savings at all. Probably just made the backs with the same mentality that agd had, but then again who knows.

[riceboi]

i think smart part have it in there new marker :ninja:

[Riddler236]

I'm not sure if this was one of yours or a one-off by somebody else, and it's only a partial (if the seller is even accurate that it's Ti), but here it is besides:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Titanium-Valve-Back-for-Automag-Minimag-Micromag-Rare_W0QQitemZ220475269411QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_De faultDomain_0?hash=item335559a123&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

item #220475269411 if the link decides to be problematic.