What exactly happened between smar parts and AGD?

[Stingrayman42]

I have heard rumors of lawsuits and things that shut down the production of the X-mag. Are any of these actually true, if not what actually happened? I have been out of the game for some time and am just curious as to what is going on.

Thanks.

[tech-chan]

AGD RULES AND SMART PARTS ARE IDIOTS!!!

Sorry, maybe Lohmann or someone can explain it, I'm just here for the Mag party.

[neppo1345]

Long story short:

Smart Parts patented electronic paintball guns.

Smart parts started sending cease and desist letters to companys producing said guns.

AGD figured they were next so they took a step back and looked to see if it was worth it.

They realized that it wasn't, so they halted production.

To the best of my knowledge SP never actually send AGD a formal C&D.

[robnix]

:tard:

[Don Carnage]

OK, I had been wondering.

Can't you still buy an X-mag from AGD Europe? Euro X-Mag (http://www.airgun.com/Europe/Xtreme.shtml)

How would that be immune to Spart Parts lawyers?

[MANN]

OK, I had been wondering.

Can't you still buy an X-mag from AGD Europe? Euro X-Mag (http://www.airgun.com/Europe/Xtreme.shtml)

How would that be immune to Spart Parts lawyers?

nope.

[originalspyderxtra]

i dont believe that sp has an internation patent. rather just a US patent. anyhting manufactured oversees is immune. but there is some catch with importing it.

[Railgun]

Smart parts "invented" electric guns? THAT'S SILLY! You can't "invent" using electricity with something like that. Just a given valve or other new trick that is unique and new in some way that happens to use electric power. And you certainly can't patent using a solenoid to do anything. Those have been around as long as electric motors.

Guns of all sorts have been electrically fired in one form or another for decades! I wonder if they sent a cease and desist to GE for making electrically fired miniguns....

[emumikey]

Smart parts "invented" electric guns? THAT'S SILLY! You can't "invent" using electricity with something like that. Just a given valve or other new trick that is unique and new in some way that happens to use electric power. And you certainly can't patent using a solenoid to do anything. Those have been around as long as electric motors.

Guns of all sorts have been electrically fired in one form or another for decades! I wonder if they sent a cease and desist to GE for making electrically fired miniguns....


wrong. you can patent the execution or implementation of an existing technology.

[aqua_scummm]

wrong. you can patent the execution or implementation of an existing technology.

Please don't make generalizations when you are not properly educated on the subject.
He wasn't saying they didn't do what they did, he was saying they shouldn't have been able to.

[Beemer]

When I saw this thread it had eighteen posts. Next one trys to jack it wont be happy. Enough said.

Now if you want to put up some links for him to read That would be Helpfull. Otherwise just skip the thread and dont post.

Back OT


He wasn't saying they didn't do what they did, he was saying they shouldn't have been able to.

Right. Thats the million dollar question. How the heck did they get away with something that broad. I bet large they didnt have to go thru any appeals. How many different examiners looked at their apps or was it just one that kept giving them the expansion. Hmm

[Railgun]

And that's the thing. It's an incredably broad interpretation.

I know that electrically operated solenoid valves have been used in many, many other pneumatic and hydraulic applications. So the only thing I can see is that SP may have gotten away with the idea of applying them to paintball markers? But since electrically controlled pneumatic valves are generally so common for many applications I would think they are in a rather shakey situation. But then a lot of the marker companies are probably not multi million dollar Fortune 500 outfits. And even the possibility of legal action costs could well scare them into paying SP the extortion money that they seem to be after.

I suppose I could see SP's case if they came up with the first single spool electro pneumatic system (as in the Shocker?) and they were going after other single spool electro pneumatic makers. If that's the case then I suppose they have a valid case. But if they are just going after ANY of the electro pneumatic makers then that sure seems over the top.

[Chaos_Theory!]

What they patented was pretty specific but it effected a very broad range of things. They pretty much took a very basic thing that was needed for a lot of electro pnuematic markers and patented it which hurt a lot of companies in one way or another.

[Lord_Whoopass]

And that's the thing. It's an incredably broad interpretation.

I know that electrically operated solenoid valves have been used in many, many other pneumatic and hydraulic applications. So the only thing I can see is that SP may have gotten away with the idea of applying them to paintball markers? But since electrically controlled pneumatic valves are generally so common for many applications I would think they are in a rather shakey situation. But then a lot of the marker companies are probably not multi million dollar Fortune 500 outfits. And even the possibility of legal action costs could well scare them into paying SP the extortion money that they seem to be after.

I suppose I could see SP's case if they came up with the first single spool electro pneumatic system (as in the Shocker?) and they were going after other single spool electro pneumatic makers. If that's the case then I suppose they have a valid case. But if they are just going after ANY of the electro pneumatic makers then that sure seems over the top.

SP patented a certain port or operation (forget which), that is used on all Electropneumatic markers...

Funny part is Dye owns the patent for spool valve (bolt kits)... SP and dye got into a little legal action too...

Now if TK would have patented HPA applications on Paintball markers, he could have easily got many royalties from the market.... However some people truely care about the industry and dont try to drive others out of business or make money from them... which basically hurts the industry as a whole...

[aqua_scummm]

SP patented a certain port or operation (forget which), that is used on all Electropneumatic markers...

Funny part is Dye owns the patent for spool valve (bolt kits)... SP and dye got into a little legal action too...

Now if TK would have patented HPA applications on Paintball markers, he could have easily got many royalties from the market.... However some people truely care about the industry and dont try to drive others out of business or make money from them... which basically hurts the industry as a whole...
The pin valve was invented by Tippmann, they would have made a billion dollars.

Same can be said for nelson valvetrains, sheridan valvetrains, etc

[Lohman446]

Probably not true of the pin valve or HPA. We see them as common place because they were "gifts" to the sport. They would have never developed to where they are now, as far as being common place, if they had been patented.

As to AGD and electros. TK does not feel the risk to reward analysis is worth putting out a new electro. I think that the legal environment is part of it, we have frankly been told it is, but its not all of it.

[Beemer]

Probably not true of the pin valve or HPA. We see them as common place because they were "gifts" to the sport. They would have never developed to where they are now, as far as being common place, if they had been patented.


I dont think a patent on those would have changed anything.

[aqua_scummm]

I dont think a patent on those would have changed anything.
Seriously, if Tippmann charged 25 cents on each pin valve produced and AGD tacked one dollar onto the price of each HPA system, they would be just as popular.

Pin valves grew quickly because they were so safe compared to thermo tanks, what price would you put on safety?

HPA grew because it allowed rapid rates of fire in the summer without using liquid CO2 or experiencing shootdown using gaseous CO2, and we all know what price people will pay for speed... look at the prices of cyborgs, angels, and quests.

edit: someone is gonna say it was for consistency, well you can shoot just as fast with CO2, it just wont be as consistent

[Pneumagger]

edit: someone is gonna say it was for consistency, well you can shoot just as fast with CO2, it just wont be as consistent
It was for consistency :D

Anyways, I'm pretty sure the smartparts patent coverd the useage of an electrical switch that started a firing sequence or something. Not the idea of actual electronics IIRC.

[Lohman446]

I dont think a patent on those would have changed anything.

Are we talking a patent or an enforced patent / licensing agreement?

[aqua_scummm]

It was for consistency :D

Anyways, I'm pretty sure the smartparts patent coverd the useage of an electrical switch that started a firing sequence or something. Not the idea of actual electronics IIRC.
Eventually it got to any paintball marker with an electronic on/off switch, button, etc of any kind. Meaning turning the marker on or off, turning a solenoid on or off, etc.

Although I think it's no longer upheld to that point

[Beemer]

Are we talking a patent or an enforced patent / licensing agreement?

Take your pick.

It wouldnt have mattered because the demand was there. Nobody cared about the cost. Everybody wanted it and it wasnt so cheap to have it anyway back then. Royalties would have been paid in a heartbeat. The cost wasnt gonna stop us. I played thru that paradigm shift and saw it first hand.




Pin valves grew quickly because they were so safe compared to thermo tanks, what price would you put on safety?

Where did you get this info or why do have this opinion?

[aqua_scummm]

The safety wasn't as much from the valve itself, but the standardization. Plenty of people rigged their thermo tanks using fittings not rated for the pressures of CO2. By standardizing the valves and lines, as well as integrating them into the marker, Tippmann helped ensure player safety

I'll admit I am too young to be saying this firsthand, I started in 97, but that's what an old field manager once told me

[p8ntbal4me]

I remember seeing a patent in Haveblu that was pre-dated before the PVI shocker that SP says is their "cover all" say all patent.

Im looking for it now,.. it was somethign like 15 months registered earlier than ANY SP patent to date.

There was a big disscusion about it on the Tinkers Guild too.

[Lohman446]

Take your pick.

It wouldnt have mattered because the demand was there. Nobody cared about the cost. Everybody wanted it and it wasnt so cheap to have it anyway back then. Royalties would have been paid in a heartbeat. The cost wasnt gonna stop us. I played thru that paradigm shift and saw it first hand.





Where did you get this info or why do have this opinion?

HPA had a hard enough time getting accepted without more cost. Im not so sure. Its an interesting question.

[spectre184]

Here is 1st gun that started electros (http://www.mcarterbrown.com/collection3.0/collection.cgi?action=list2&man=PVI%20-%20Cyber%209000) But look at the gun that actually made it into production. (http://www.mcarterbrown.com/collection3.0/collection.cgi?action=list2&man=PVI%20-%20Shocker) Scroll down to last pic and see what it says. Course not long after SP bought out PN (I think) and you know the rest..........

[y0da900]

Here is 1st gun that started electros (http://www.mcarterbrown.com/collection3.0/collection.cgi?action=list2&man=PVI%20-%20Cyber%209000) But look at the gun that actually made it into production. (http://www.mcarterbrown.com/collection3.0/collection.cgi?action=list2&man=PVI%20-%20Shocker) Scroll down to last pic and see what it says. Course not long after SP bought out PN (I think) and you know the rest..........


I think the Cyber 9000 came after the Shocker, and was PVI's attempt to keep going after SP pulled out and started building the shocker themselves.

[Ydna]

That's correct.

[SCpoloRicker]

whatever