Where does responsibility ultimately fall?

[Chronobreak]

Well, i was thinking the other day and after talking to some manufacturers, and looking over some equipment used for the sport, and its intended rough usage i am wondering where does the responsibility of making a "safe product" lie ?

say for example you have a tank...that tank meets certain standards and has safety features(though if those are proper measures could be for another thread)

It seems AGD is the only company that made, or to this day makes a gun that will handle 3k psi in the event of a reg failure, and also has a few redundant safety features.

Does responsibility lie with consumers when picking the correct macro or fittings for a gun, or the type of reg to use.

should electronic/multi mode guns(anything but semi) guns come with barrel plugs(shouldnt they have well built sleeves?

should equipment come from manufacturers at unsafe and illegal fps(340+)

should there be more safety standards on what is and isnt acceptable?


my thoughts are a little scattered so i may add to this original post or swap things around as i think of other things etc.

is sub par equipment acceptable at any level of the sport, expecialy when it can be a safety hazard? or does the responsibilty ultimately lie with the informed consumer(which seems to be lacking these days)

[turbo chicken]

a lawyer could make a case wither way ... and there is an argument for each side ... an a counter response for the other side for each comment you make .... so ill give my opinion strictly about paintball ... cause i could go on a good rant about consumer/mfgr responsibilities in general.

I say it is the consumer ... you are responsible for your safety and the safety of others around you. Especially in paintball.

Yes an uninformed consumer is dangerous ... but still responsible for their actions

I'd say the companies obligation ends with warnings and instructions on how to properly use the equipment and yes sending them to where they operate safely out of the box.

but even then an ill informed consumer can still endanger themselves and others safety by not reading those instructions and using included safety devices/constraints

[Draken]

Well, i was thinking the other day and after talking to some manufacturers, and looking over some equipment used for the sport, and its intended rough usage i am wondering where does the responsibility of making a "safe product" lie ?

say for example you have a tank...that tank meets certain standards and has safety features(though if those are proper measures could be for another thread)

It seems AGD is the only company that made, or to this day makes a gun that will handle 3k psi in the event of a reg failure, and also has a few redundant safety features.

Does responsibility lie with consumers when picking the correct macro or fittings for a gun, or the type of reg to use.

should electronic/multi mode guns(anything but semi) guns come with barrel plugs(shouldnt they have well built sleeves?

should equipment come from manufacturers at unsafe and illegal fps(340+)

should there be more safety standards on what is and isnt acceptable?

my thoughts are a little scattered so i may add to this original post or swap things around as i think of other things etc.

is sub par equipment acceptable at any level of the sport, expecialy when it can be a safety hazard? or does the responsibilty ultimately lie with the informed consumer(which seems to be lacking these days)

Saying its the manufacturers fault is like saying its fords fault that I decided I wanted to see if my car would float so I drove it into the lake...Did Ford tell me to do that with their car? No. Should I take the time to RTFM? Yes...

Trying to lay the blame on the manufacturer is VERY childish and should not be done...

Guess what I'm trying to say is it is your own responsibility for the actions you take, if it is taking a marker out of the box and shooting someone before taking it to a chrono to checking your lens on your mask to cracks, to knowing that your Ford doesn't float...what ever it is, YOU are the one that is responsible for YOU.

[turbo chicken]

Saying its the manufacturers fault is like saying its fords fault that I decided I wanted to see if my car would float so I drove it into the lake...Did Ford tell me to do that with their car? No. Should I take the time to RTFM? Yes...

Trying to lay the blame on the manufacturer is VERY childish and should not be done...

Guess what I'm trying to say is it is your own responsibility for the actions you take, if it is taking a marker out of the box and shooting someone before taking it to a chrono to checking your lens on your mask to cracks, to knowing that your Ford doesn't float...what ever it is, YOU are the one that is responsible for YOU.

:clap:

/end thread

[Chronobreak]

i dont mean to suggest it is the manufacturers fault, however...a certain quality of product should still be maintained.

things that break in half under "NORMAL" conditions or snap off a gun are far from safe and fault of the consumer.

what if a tank manufacturer forgets to put a part in a reg...you get the tank filled and 3k goes into the gun shattering it....whos fault is that?

just playing devils advocate

[Draken]

i dont mean to suggest it is the manufacturers fault, however...a certain quality of product should still be maintained.

things that break in half under "NORMAL" conditions or snap off a gun are far from safe and fault of the consumer.

what if a tank manufacturer forgets to put a part in a reg...you get the tank filled and 3k goes into the gun shattering it....whos fault is that?

just playing devils advocate


For quality control, like what you are talking about right there, is the fault of the manufacture, and pretty much all of them will own up when its their fault, but of course you have to prove its their fault and not user error

[Lohman446]

It seems AGD is the only company that made, or to this day makes a gun that will handle 3k psi in the event of a reg failure, and also has a few redundant safety features.
]

This is overrated. Its probably the only one that will survive it. The wording is that it may not suffer catastrophic failure, a massive leak is not catastrophic failure. I don't care if it destroys the marker, as long as pieces don't go flying.

[Chronobreak]

maybe i should have elft agd and tanks out of my post, since they are the two main ones i have little to no concern about.

my main concern was lack luster quality of product(correct word?)..when making equipment, or not providing proper safety equipment with markers, or other gear.


ie a spyder clone dropped about 2' and the gas thru foregrip snapped and the thing went flying!. if anyone would have had the gun in their hand i have no doubt we would have been calling 911.

also say an electronic gun is in a mode...is a barrel plug a sufficient measure of safety for a multi mode gun? i must STRONGLY disagree that it is.

[warbeak2099]

also say an electronic gun is in a mode...is a barrel plug a sufficient measure of safety for a multi mode gun? i must STRONGLY disagree that it is.

Which is why most fields have disallowed barrel plugs as an acceptable means of barrel blocking and have started mandating the use of condoms/bags.

[RRfireblade]

Comes down to criminal negligence IMO.

Was the manufacturer negligent in a way that an injury or death from said negligence was beyond the reasonable perception of the average user ?

Or was it the users negligence beyond the typical use of the product that caused the injury ?

In todays world , neither really matters. ;)

Fault lays directly with those of the deepest pockets. :D

[Tunaman]

maybe i should have elft agd and tanks out of my post, since they are the two main ones i have little to no concern about.

my main concern was lack luster quality of product(correct word?)..when making equipment, or not providing proper safety equipment with markers, or other gear.


ie a spyder clone dropped about 2' and the gas thru foregrip snapped and the thing went flying!. if anyone would have had the gun in their hand i have no doubt we would have been calling 911.

also say an electronic gun is in a mode...is a barrel plug a sufficient measure of safety for a multi mode gun? i must STRONGLY disagree that it is.Definately dont leave tanks out. AGD is the only manufacturer of a tank so safe that if you snap the reg off at the bottle neck it wont go off like a missile. Thank god for flatlines...

[Chronobreak]

Comes down to criminal negligence IMO.

Was the manufacturer negligent in a way that an injury or death from said negligence was beyond the reasonable perception of the average user ?

Or was it the users negligence beyond the typical use of the product that caused the injury ?

In todays world , neither really matters. ;)

Fault lays directly with those of the deepest pockets. :D


diddnt take long to get to that inevitable answer.

as far as poor quality or poorly made products it seems to come down to the risk of a failure causing aninjury, and what that injury would cost the company vs the profit they make.

im going to attempt to contact a few more companies, however most that i have or have tried to contact about appropriate safety equipment/mesures do not comment or get back to me. :rolleyes:

[Chronobreak]

Definately dont leave tanks out. AGD is the only manufacturer of a tank so safe that if you snap the reg off at the bottle neck it wont go off like a missile. Thank god for flatlines...


i think tuna just referenced TK as a god... :D

--my post was a broad one and i didnt want anyone to focus on one particular product/component as i see them all as a part of a larger complete sytem

[Aggravated Assault]

Which is why most fields have disallowed barrel plugs as an acceptable means of barrel blocking and have started mandating the use of condoms/bags.

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=207860&highlight=barrel+sock+patent

Anyway, I have seen barrel socks fly off after accidental discharges too...

[RRfireblade]

Ah , they should just outlaw paintball all together. :D

[bryceeden]

should equipment come from manufacturers at unsafe and illegal fps(340+)



Actually your altitude may affect velocity, lets say you live at sea level and your product was made in Denver depending on how the marker operates(regulators) that could make a pretty big difference in velocity when it gets to you but it worked fine in Denver. I find most high end markers usually arive to me at about 250-270fps.

[Chronobreak]

Actually your altitude may affect velocity, lets say you live at sea level and your product was made in Denver depending on how the marker operates(regulators) that could make a pretty big difference in velocity when it gets to you but it worked fine in Denver. I find most high end markers usually arive to me at about 250-270fps.


well as for that statement i have seen one LARGE brand/manufacturere that has been sending out guns at high velocities for some time now, regardles of altitude......

and if that is the case wouldnt 250 be better...i guess some people would rather be too high than too low and have people complain the gun doesnt shoot far..... :rolleyes:

once again its hard to back up statements like mine without mentinong specific brands/names...but that can put me in an awkward spot... :cool:

[Tao]

Well, i was thinking the other day and after talking to some manufacturers, and looking over some equipment used for the sport, and its intended rough usage i am wondering where does the responsibility of making a "safe product" lie ?

say for example you have a tank...that tank meets certain standards and has safety features(though if those are proper measures could be for another thread)

It seems AGD is the only company that made, or to this day makes a gun that will handle 3k psi in the event of a reg failure, and also has a few redundant safety features.

Does responsibility lie with consumers when picking the correct macro or fittings for a gun, or the type of reg to use.

should electronic/multi mode guns(anything but semi) guns come with barrel plugs(shouldnt they have well built sleeves?

should equipment come from manufacturers at unsafe and illegal fps(340+)

should there be more safety standards on what is and isnt acceptable?


my thoughts are a little scattered so i may add to this original post or swap things around as i think of other things etc.

is sub par equipment acceptable at any level of the sport, expecialy when it can be a safety hazard? or does the responsibilty ultimately lie with the informed consumer(which seems to be lacking these days)


Well anyone when doing anything has to take a reasonable duty of care. If an event of some kind is forseable and harmfull, all reasonable precautions must be taken to protect people from that event hapening. (if that makes any sense :P)

If you make a high pressure air cylander what can be expected to occure. Well it can blow up, fracture, it will probably be banged around a bit, used in a environment from freezing to 40degC plus day. It can also be expected to explode if the wrong substance is contained, such as oiling the regulator. Can a device be installed to filter out oil from the air? I doublt it, but you can put warning labels on the product. With cylanders they are regulated by specific safety standars so following those standards would be deemed "reasonable". So is a cylander exploding after being filled with air forseable? yes, is a cylander exploding from filling it with a wrong substance yes...so have you "reasonably" attempted to prevent these from happening?

Now reasonable is heard all the time in law. For example if the next step in preventing an accident would be to have a company safety supervisor escort the tank around to make sure it is used properly, this would not be "reasonable" :rofl:

Is it foreseable to a marker manufacturer that a regulater could fail and send overpressurized gas into the marker? I think yes. As far as I know many markers will end up "severely" leaking out the barrel as a safety precaution. I could be wrong though, it may be considered that a tank will NEVER fail if taken care of properly and if it does due to defect, the marker sharpnel that blinds you may be a liability only for the tank manufacturer.... :wow:

Is the end user "responsable" for safety? Theoretically only for following safety warnings. However if you get injured you could have it for life and no ammount of money would fix that. On that note your only remedy is a law suit wich can be expensive and time consuming, and you will not see the money for a few years.... :tard:


Is sub par equipment acceptable?? Well from a PURELY business standpoint will the extra cost put into making a product safer be cheaper than the estimated cost in lawsuits otherwise? Or would it be much cheaper to deal with X amount of lawsuits.....?????? :eek:

[bryceeden]

well as for that statement i have seen one LARGE brand/manufacturere that has been sending out guns at high velocities for some time now, regardles of altitude......

and if that is the case wouldnt 250 be better...i guess some people would rather be too high than too low and have people complain the gun doesnt shoot far..... :rolleyes:

once again its hard to back up statements like mine without mentinong specific brands/names...but that can put me in an awkward spot... :cool:


Whoever that is I guess I've never carried their markers, but anyway I think they assume that the user will chrono the marker. Which alot don't but most do. But yes, without knowing what company your speaking of I can't really say anything about it, but I have never had a company consistantly send me markers with high velocitys(I chrono all my markers befor I sell them) Once in a while someone will slip and I'll get one at 320 or what ever but like I said the average is 250-270. I think companies assume(and I wish they were right) that the people who buy thier products will read the instruction manual and follow what it says in all aspects. Unfortunatly there are way too many stupid people in the world but that really can't be blamed on the manufacturer. Just my oppinion.

[Desega]

Saying its the manufacturers fault is like saying its fords fault that I decided I wanted to see if my car would float so I drove it into the lake...Did Ford tell me to do that with their car? No. Should I take the time to RTFM? Yes...

Trying to lay the blame on the manufacturer is VERY childish and should not be done...

Guess what I'm trying to say is it is your own responsibility for the actions you take, if it is taking a marker out of the box and shooting someone before taking it to a chrono to checking your lens on your mask to cracks, to knowing that your Ford doesn't float...what ever it is, YOU are the one that is responsible for YOU.
McDonald's made me fat. :cry:
JK I agree with you. It should be the players responsibility to know about their equipment before they use it. Anyone who blames an idustry for their neglegence deserves a <img src="http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_9_133.gif" alt="Clubbin'" border="0">

[Chronobreak]

McDonald's made me fat. :cry:
JK I agree with you. It should be the players responsibility to know about their equipment before they use it. Anyone who blames an idustry for their neglegence deserves a <img src="http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_9_133.gif" alt="Clubbin'" border="0">


ok let me try and convert you again, since it seems like your still saying i or somone else here is "blaming" an entire industry for every injury or likelyhood of one.

ok how bout MASK's

you need to know things like how to properly attach them to your head securely, what type of lense cleaners to use and not use. that is the users responsibility.

however what if a manufacturer skimps on some decent straps and sends out straps that are held only by half open sliders(whatever the clips are called). if said strap is pulled to ahrd(as to tighten) the mask will come apart at the strap and fall to teh ground.

is that the consumers fault?what if a store sells the goggles and has no reason to have ever tested them, what if a field uses them for rentals and theyf all off, is it the fields fault?, or is it the manufacturers fault for making a very poor decision in components and overall concept.

desega, can you honeslty say that you have enver seen a questionable "reasonably safe" product by any paintball comapny, or any company for that matter.

:think snl skits with dan aykroyd(bass-o-matic:

i think i giveup... :sleeping:



--i am not trying to make a "the coffee was too hot, so im suing because i got burnt" post

[bryceeden]

I think sometimes like in your mask example it is the companies fualt(although I think paintball stores should thoroughly(sp) test any product they carry), but I also think 99% of the time the blame falls on the consumers for neglagence.