What makes is the difficult part of creating a new bolt for a mag? [Archive]

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RavishingEddie

03-13-2007, 01:40 AM

Well lately I have been thinking of how almost all guns out there have some sort of aftermarket bolt/s to choose from. ex. Pillow bolt, HE bolt, etc. The biggest thing that i noticed in the improvement is air efficiency, and softer on balls. I mean look at the Shocker who is inititially an air hog, but redeemed itself with a simple bolt replacement instead of a whole new setup. I am not trying to rant about how mags need bolts, but however I would like to know what makes such an upgrade so difficult to create for a mag? Why can't you just create a lighter version of the LVL 7 with just a bit less than equal spring tension to create a light touch? What are the barriers that stand in the way of making such an upgrade?

Chaos_Theory!

03-13-2007, 02:08 AM

An aluminum bolt was in the works for the mag for a while but i dont think anythign came of it. Delrin or a similar material has been done but it cant hold up. Lastly, the bolt isnt the reason for mags terrible efficiency (when compared to most other high end guns today) its the valve design itself.

trevorjk

03-13-2007, 02:47 AM

if i recall correctly the problem with bolts for the mag is that the lip at the back end of the bolt has to with stand the pressure of the spring and has to hold up to the catching of the sear.

both of which will take its toll on just about any metal out there. think of it as metal catching on metal. not metal sliding on metal. overtime that metal WILL wear down

RRfireblade

03-13-2007, 11:03 AM

1) The mags operation is EXTREMELY hard on the bolt compared to other markers. Sear engagement , bolt speed and return force , wear from the spring , power tube support. It's a technical nightmare.

2) The bolt has very little to do with the performance of a Mag. It is essentially a straw. No place to really go from there performance wise. Only real improvement I can see is on sealing of the breach chamber. Mags have a ton of blowback comparedto most other markers. I believe that contributes to a fair share of previous breakage issues. Unfortunatley with the bolt captured by a spring , theres not a lot of room there either.

3) Any aftermarket effort will simply get crushed by the "Can't meet AGD specs" anyway. :D

stonersr26

03-13-2007, 02:02 PM

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but mags are not terribly innefficient when set up properly. By this I mean instead of using a 14" barrel that has 8-9" of porting go with something like a Lapco. I had a RT barrel milled for cocker threads and noticed a huge jump in efficiency on my emag. I think alot of the issues of inefficiency come into how most barrels are 4" of stick with 8" of porting. When I finally get my mag together with the Level 7 bolt I am going to work on getting a custom carbon fiber barrel made similar to the RT barrel I had and see what kind of efficiency I get compared to a 14" Dye Ultralite. It should be fun :)

Lenny

03-13-2007, 02:42 PM

...most barrels are 4" of stick with 8" of porting...
:confused:

Chaos_Theory!

03-13-2007, 04:32 PM

No, mags are innefficient in just about any case. Even if you have them set up well a lot of guns on the market now walk all over them efficiency wise. It would be a different story if they could operate at a much lower pressure.

stonersr26

03-13-2007, 04:41 PM

Youre not wrong.

You mean, like a non-ported, 12", cocker-threaded, DeadlyWind Wisper barrel? :cool: :ninja:

Yeah, it is fun. Ive sold a few of those custom barrels to buddies. I only have a couple left. ;)

Yes, that is exactly what I want to do, but then it will recieve some ultra cool ninja porting :ninja:

Lenny~I was just saying that most barrels are all about looks rather than actual technology being implemented in design.

Chaos~not true, I used a 68/3000 on my Emag with the RT barrel for a long time and would consistently shoot 5 pods and a Halo without running out of air, so roughly 825 shots from a Level X Emag with a well tuned X and a barrel that wasn't ported up the Wazoo. I think if you compared that with a Shocker or Ego you would find similar numbers. So I have no problem seeing my Mag with a well set up Level 7 bolt and a custom barrel being comparable with most of the other guns out today. It doesn't compare with a Viking or a Cyborg by any means, but most other guns don't either :rolleyes:

turbo chicken

03-13-2007, 06:18 PM

bolt design comment ... how a bout a bolt where the spring was behind the bolt and it was pulled back to firing position ...

make sense ... im bout to go get some taco bell so ill elaborate later for the ones who cant stt my vision

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n315/turbo_chicken/conceptbolt.jpg

ß?µ£ §mµ®ƒ

03-13-2007, 06:30 PM

are you saying pump/closed bolt?

cyrus-the-virus

03-13-2007, 07:28 PM

For a pump it would be great.

But it's not possable too do in semi auto.

turbo chicken

03-13-2007, 07:34 PM

nope still blow foward ... but the spring would be at the back of the bolt (attached some how) and would pull the bolt back after being fired ... i thought that maybe the bigger part of the bolt where the spring would be housed would seal aginst something some where to prevent the wasted air that fireblade was talking about ...

but ...i don't see how that would seal the breech unless there was an oring or something ...

Why aren't there orings on a mag bolt ... guess the extra air that you would need because of the extra friction is more than the amount of air wasted because the breech chamber isn't sealed ...

so yeah can anyone think of any more reasons why orings aren't used to seal the breech on a mag???

Chaos_Theory!

03-13-2007, 08:15 PM

Chaos~not true, I used a 68/3000 on my Emag with the RT barrel for a long time and would consistently shoot 5 pods and a Halo without running out of air, so roughly 825 shots from a Level X Emag with a well tuned X and a barrel that wasn't ported up the Wazoo. I think if you compared that with a Shocker or Ego you would find similar numbers. So I have no problem seeing my Mag with a well set up Level 7 bolt and a custom barrel being comparable with most of the other guns out today. It doesn't compare with a Viking or a Cyborg by any means, but most other guns don't either :rolleyes:

Heh, they still arent up there with a number of other guns. I know what you mean when it comes to Vikings, thats all i shoot now. lol

RRfireblade

03-13-2007, 08:20 PM

O-Ring Q :

Don't think there's a safe place to put one. The forward stroke is not really controlled , it may bounce off the spring or fall short of. As well as it's track is not really guided but more of floating inside the spring. It's not like a true spooler that has both ends of the stroke under full control and the bolt fully captured along it's path with reasonably tight precision.

I have roughly mocked up a fix for that and the efficiency issue (for those who really care AKA Pumpers ;) ) Not sure how far I will get on it , time permitting , but if it works out the way I imagine the P mag guys will be in second heaven. :)

turbo chicken

03-13-2007, 09:05 PM