Barrel test----- I have a few more questions/ need paint suggestions

[MANN]

Alright so I am tring to do this barrel test to find what barrel is "the best". I was wanting to do the test this weekend, but my sm1 kit is ??mia?? So far I have these barrels

(will include a list later, but heres a pic)
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/IMG_1589.jpg

I am using both a red chrono(the big one that most fields have), and a yellow handheld one (Im sorta wanting to see the accuracy of the 2). I will have the xmag set up in a vice to insure that it does not move.

I need oppinions on what length I should do the test. I am thinking ~ 50-60 ft? What is the lenght of a speedball course from back to back?

A decibalmeter will be stationed to record the differences in sound peeks between the different barrels. (I havent decided where yet tho. Probally halfway between the barrel and the target) This will show the percent of muffle that each barrel provides (for those woodsballers that want a "sniper barrel" :rofl: ). It should also tell if there are any balls that are smaller or larger than normal.

I am using paper for the target so that I will be able to see where the ball breaks through, and hopefully it wont make that much of a mess. The paper will be changed out after each barrel. It will measure 36"X~24"-30"

I am thinking that ~25 of each ball per barrel should give decent results.

I think I am going to use 3 different types of balls. I am needing suggestions for what to use. Whatever it is it needs to be ~ 40 a case (this test is being sponsored by my back pocket, and its running low). I am thinking PMI stingers, draxxus recsport, and xball bronze. All of these are what I would consider affordable for the average middle of the road player (either speed or woods ball).

I need a little help on identifying some of the barrels above. There are 2 sceptor kits. One has a tapered end, and the other is similar to the empire revolver kit (basicly a long version of the 2007 one).

Also one of the ul barrels has a dust front on it. I think its a proto front. Is that correct?

If anyone wants to have their barrel/s tested I would be more than happy to do it. I will pay return shipping on any barrel that is sent to me.



EDIT: First round of data
Given Diameters Actual Diameters Difference
Stainless steel Freak inserts 0.682 0.6820 0.0000
~5" control bore 0.6840 0.6850 0.0010
0.687 0.6870 0.0000
0.689 0.6900 0.0010
0.691 0.6915 0.0005
0.693 0.6935 0.0005
0.695 0.6960 0.0010
0.697 0.6980 0.0010
0.697 0.6975 0.0005
Aluminum Freak inserts 0.679 0.6795 0.0005
~5" control bore 0.679 0.6800 0.0010
0.682 0.6835 0.0015
0.684 0.6850 0.0010
0.687 0.6895 0.0025
0.689 0.6915 0.0025
0.691 0.6915 0.0005
0.693 0.6965 0.0035
0.695 0.6965 0.0015
Fronts 10" Black Freak 0.7015 N/A
12" Black Freak 0.7025 N/A
14" Black Freak 0.7020 N/A
11" Purple AA 0.7035 N/A
16" Purple Freak 0.7030 N/A
---------------
Redz Pepperstick 0.687 0.6885 0.0015
~6.5" control bore 0.689 0.6890 0.0000
0.691 0.6915 0.0005
0.693 0.6920 0.0010
Fronts 14" Black Redz 0.7100 N/A
16" Black Redz 0.7100 N/A
---------------
Evil Pipe 0.683 0.6830 0.0000
~6" control bore 0.686 0.6855 0.0005
0.689 0.6890 0.0000
0.692 0.6925 0.0005
0.695 0.6950 0.0000
Fronts 14" Black Evil 0.7055 N/A
14" Black Evil 0.7065 N/A
---------------
Empire Revolver Aluminum inserts 0.684 0.6865 0.6860 0.0025
~4" control bore 0.688 0.6935 0.6900 0.0055
back of insert / front of insert 0.690 0.6920 0.6900 0.0020
0.692 0.6940 0.6935 0.0020
0.696 0.6985 0.6960 0.0025
Fronts 14" Black Empire 0.7050 N/A
---------------
BT Apex 10" one piece 0.7005 N/A
---------------
Empire 7 pc set 0.681 0.6845 0.0035
~6" control bore 0.684 0.6850 0.0010
All have tapered back 0.687 0.6895 0.0025
0.690 0.6915 0.0015
0.693 0.6930 0.0000
0.696 0.6965 0.0005
Fronts 14" Black Empire 0.7040 N/A
---------------
Mcdev Matchstik 0.685 0.6870 0.0020
~5.5" control bore 0.689 0.6905 0.0015
0.693 0.6955 0.0025
Fronts 12" Black Matchstik 0.6950 N/A
14" Black Matchstik 0.6950 N/A
---------------
CCM 0.681 0.6810 0.0000
~1.25 control bore 0.684 0.6850 0.0010
0.687 0.6875 0.0005
0.690 0.6915 0.0015
0.693 0.6940 0.0010
Fronts 14" CF CCM (tapered) 0.6960 - .7100 N/A
---------------
Stiffi Switch 0.685 0.6855 0.0005
~1.25" control bore 0.687 0.6885 0.0015
0.689 0.6910 0.0020
0.691 0.6915 0.0005
Fronts 12" CF Switch (tapered) 0.6950 - .7010 N/A
---------------
Hammerhead 0.688 0.6890 0.0010
~1.25 control bore 0.690 0.6910 0.0010
0.693 0.6935 0.0005
Front 14" Black Hammerhead N/A N/A
12" Black Hammerhead N/A N/A
---------------
J&J Edge Dust Black 0.682 0.6835 0.0015
~4" control bore 0.685 0.6860 0.0010
0.688 0.6890 0.0010
0.691 0.6910 0.0000
0.693 0.6940 0.0010
Front 10" Dust Black Edge 0.7090 N/A
12" Dust Black Edge 0.7090 N/A
14" Dust Black Edge 0.7060 N/A
---------------
Custom Products 5 piece 0.682 (tapered back) 0.6810 N/A
~5" control bore 0.685 0.6850 0.0000
0.689 0.6885 0.0005
0.693 0.6955 0.0025
0.696 0.6970 0.0010
Front 14" Red CP 0.7005 N/A
---------------
Powerlite Scepter (tapered insert) 0.684 0.6850 0.0010
~6" control bore 0.686 0.6865 0.0005
0.688 0.6870 0.0010
0.690 0.6910 0.0010
0.692 0.6940 0.0020
Front 14" Black PL 0.6990 N/A
---------------
Powerlite Scepter (revolver insert) 0.684 0.6850 0.0010
~6" control bore 0.686 0.6870 0.0010
0.688 0.6900 0.0020
0.690 0.6925 0.0025
0.692 0.6950 0.0030
Front 12" Black PL 0.7000 N/A
---------------
J&J Edge Gloss Black 0.685 0.6860 0.0010
~4" control bore 0.688 0.6900 0.0020
0.691 0.6920 0.0010
0.693 0.6945 0.0015
Front 12" Gloss Edge 0.7055 N/A
---------------
WGP Kaner 0.682 0.6830 0.0010
~6.5" control bore 0.684 0.6850 0.0010
0.687 0.6880 0.0010
0.689 0.6895 0.0005
0.691 0.6915 0.0005
12" Pweter Kaner 0.7005 N/A
14" Pweter Kaner 0.7030 N/A
16" Pweter Kaner 0.7005 N/A
---------------
Dye Ultralite White (?.689) 0.6925 N/A
~6" control bore Yellow (?.689) 0.6925 N/A
Red (?.685) 0.6895 N/A
0.692 Blue 0.6950 N/A
Fronts 12" dust black proto 0.7020 N/A
14" Blue UL 0.7010 N/A
14" dust black UL 0.7010 N/A
---------------
SM Race ~5.5" control bore 0.686 0.6860 0.0000
Front 14" blue Race 0.7015 N/A
---------------
Lucky Un1tec 14" bore 0.685 0.6850 0.0000
0.693 0.6930 0.0000
0.696 0.6960 0.0000
---------------
Dye Xcel 12" one piece 0.6910 N/A
---------------
Xmag stock 12" one piece 0.6920 N/A
---------------
WGP Trilogy stock 14" one piece 0.6890 N/A
---------------
Tear Drop 14" one piece 0.6890 N/A
---------------
Misc 11" one piece 0.6885 N/A
---------------
Stock RT Pro J&J Dust Black ~5.5" control bore 0.6935 N/A
Front 12" Dust Black ?? 0.7150 N/A
---------------

[hmudd13]

I think the best one is the one there in the middle, slightly to the left.


LOL

Actually you can test barrels all day, and then test the same barrels the next day with the same paint and get totally different results,

Depending on temp, humity, barometric pressure,,,,, you get the point.

I usually bring several barrels and a kit or two when i play and pick the best at the time of the game. And a lot of times it's the stock barrel that performs the best. go figure :rolleyes:

[MANN]

Actually you can test barrels all day, and then test the same barrels the next day with the same paint and get totally different results,

Depending on temp, humity, barometric pressure,,,,, you get the point.


The test will be preformed indoors with the temp ~ 70 degrees. There will be no external forces on the paintball other than the barrel and our friend gravity. There are a few stock barrels in the mix. My xmag one, a trilogy stock, and a misc non ported one.

[ß?µ£ §mµ®ƒ]

thats gonna be a lot of paint and a lot of screwing in and out the barrels gl!

[Paintchucker]

Here is a link to the test that Paintball Times did in 2001:

http://www.paintballtimes.com/2001test/index.htm


If you standardize with them on distances, FPS, etc, you can also use their numbers to backup/verify yours...



BTW, dang that is a ton of barrels! :D

[MANN]

yeah Ive read that. I wasnt too happy with the results. IMO they basicly said crap. They didnt show the shot varance, but said they were in a 10 or 12" radius. To me that means crap. I want to see the shot pattern. I also want pics of their setup. They didnt state where they were testing either. inside or out. etc, etc, etc. They also used little to no what I would consider popular barrels. They blamed it on barrel companies, but honestly if I were a barrel company I wouldnt send them anything either. IMO their report sucked.

warpig has also done alot of test with different barrels. the sm1 is one that i was reading last weekend
http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/barrels/sm1/index.shtml

I want to create similar data for all the barrels above. That way when someone ask me why I beleive that one barrel is better than another I can say because .

[Tao]

Wow!!!!................

Well good luck! I am currious to see if two (or more) peice barrels do worse than single piece barrels.

Hey do you have the Lucky 15" barrel or barrel kit in there? (its the kit I use so nice to know :P)

[nicad]

You seem to be missing a Fibur. ;)

[Mike Smith]

Why don't you use reballs? They seem to be fairly consistant. And reusable.

And as an FYI, I would recommend using a 10" Hammerhead barrel, instead of what appears to be a 14" barrel

[MANN]

Hey do you have the Lucky 15" barrel or barrel kit in there? (its the kit I use so nice to know :P)

Ive got the .685, .693, and .696 (no .689 yet)


You seem to be missing a Fibur. ;)

Yep. I will have a ccm, stiffi switch, and a sly kit tho


Why don't you use reballs? They seem to be fairly consistant. And reusable.

And as an FYI, I would recommend using a 10" Hammerhead barrel, instead of what appears to be a 14" barrel

Im not using reballs because I dont play reball, and dont have access to ~500-1000 of them.
Why would you recocomend a 10" over a 14"? (If you have a 10" I would be more than happy to try it)

[bryceeden]

For the $40 a case paint if you can find it I reccomend Archon Ink'd its the most consistant $40case paint I've ever found.

[Mike Smith]

Reball would give you the consistancy, ball to ball and barrel to barrel, and take the built-in imperfections of paintballs out of the equation. Just a suggestion.

I've shot a 14" and a 10" Hammerhead. The 10" seems more accurate, combined with the fin kit's 2" length. Maybe it has a better "sight" picture than the 14".

[georgeyew]

The beer can on top of the photo is a nice touch ;) That is quite a collection that you got there. Are you going to be parting it out when you are done with your test? I can't wait to see the result. Thanks for taking the initiative to do this.

[MANN]

For the $40 a case paint if you can find it I reccomend Archon Ink'd its the most consistant $40case paint I've ever found.

Where do you order it from. Its not on paintball discounters or first call.

Mike. I have a pod of reballs I will try to test the differences between them and some of the paintball brands to see what happens.


The beer can on top of the photo is a nice touch ;) That is quite a collection that you got there. Are you going to be parting it out when you are done with your test? I can't wait to see the result. Thanks for taking the initiative to do this.

After measuring the internal diameter of half of the barrels it was defiently miller time :p I will probally only keep 2-3 barrel kits for myself (the best ones of course). The rest are going to be sold to pay for school :cry: .

[DaFin]

MANN,

I love the experiment. I'd like to know how you are setting up the experiment and what data are you going to collect? Absolute deviation from the center of the shot pattern? Are you going to re-calibrate/re-chrono to each barrel as to maintain as near a constant velocity accross all barrels as possible?

I might recommend that you do a Design of Experiments(DOE) study with three variables, barrell, paint and velocity to determine how much input each variable has to the outcome and which variable is going to have the greatest impact on the outcome. Three of each variabe(barrell/paint/velocity) and five shots should be enough to give significant outcome.

Here is a link to some info on DOE ==> LINK (http://www.statsoft.com/textbook/stexdes.html)

Here is a link to some software that might help you crunch the data ==> LINK (http://www.jmp.com/ads/adwords.shtml?gclid=COuv9prA-YoCFQxDgQodmEBLlQ)

There is also a fairly good MS Excel add on that might be the easiest thing for you to use called SPC-XL that you can download a day trial version of here ==> LINK (http://www.sigmazone.com/spcxl.htm)

I'm so curious because I am a manufacturing professional and I am currently doing "black belt" training which among other things deals with gathering and interpreting data just like this and also.. I'm just a rabid paintballer who digs stuff like this.

I've probably muddied the waters for you and I know you want to do this very soon but if I can offer any advise/help, I'll kibbitz where I can.

And if I can get a copy of the data when you are done that would rock!

Best,

[SlartyBartFast]

Im not using reballs because I dont play reball, and dont have access to ~500-1000 of them.

Now that's FUNNY! :rofl:

Firstly, the variations from one box of paint to the next will probably invalidate your test results.

Secondly, you can't be serious that you don't see the paint expense being far greater than ordering a box reballs.


They didnt show the shot varance, but said they were in a 10 or 12" radius. To me that means crap. I want to see the shot pattern.

Thing is, shot pattern of paintballs will be meaningless. Not unless you can show what part of the accuracy/precision is the fault of the paintballs.

[MANN]

DaFin,

The gun will be setup in a vice. It will be shot ~60 ft (I havent decided a firm distance and am open to suggestions)

The shots will hit a piece of paper ~ 36" X 24-30" Ideally the paintball will go through the paper without breaking, and hit a sheet which will catch unbroken paintballs for later practices (the paint will not be used twice). Each shot will be measured on an x y axis to the nearest 1/4".

For each shot the velocity will be recorded with 2 chronographs, and a radar gun (the red chrono was calibrated within the last year, and I have tuning forks to tune the radar gun with) the yellow cheap chrono is just that. I want to see how far off of what I call correct it is. The marker will be reset to 280 fps with each barrel. The velocity will be adjusted in accordance to AGD specs.

The maximum sound level of each shot will also be recorded for each shot (just because im intersted to see what barrel is quieter than another. The results for this will be the percent of noise reduction. A baseline for each barrel will be determined by dry firing.

EDIT/ADD: I am also taking the internal diameter of each barrel/insert to also see how close of tolerances each companies hold their products to. The actual/specified diameters, and the weight of each barrel will be recorded. some of them are :rofl: What little experience I have in manufacturing/process the percent error just would not fly.

I will read through the DOE link. I am pretty sure we did something like that in one of my statistics classes. Im a senior mechanical engineering student so I have had a ton of math, but have forgotten most of it. I might/probally will use yourself/other AOers that have a background in math to help check the results.

/kinda a side note on checking results. I had a thermodynamics I test a few years ago that I missed 25/100 points on because I didnt change degrees F to degrees C. I think the professor was just tring to prove to us that we all make mistakes and that the little ones are sometimes a big deal. In real world situations people have lost their jobs/spaceships because of little mistakes.

Thanks on the software links. I will browse through them. I will probally use excel as we have quite a few add ons availible at both work and the school ME Labs.

You are more than welcome to have any/all the data. I am going to try to host it somewhere in an excel file, but worst case I just email it to you.

Dont worry about stirring up the waters. I would rather someone point out a forseen error than for me to have data that is only worth the paper it is typed on.

EDIT/ADD: all measurements will be recorded with calibrated equipment. All barrel dimensions/weights will measured with nist calibrated calipers/ scales

[MANN]

Me= red



Firstly, the variations from one box of paint to the next will probably invalidate your test results.

This could be very true. I think I can tell a little difference in some of the barrels that I have played with before. Ie I prefer the ccm to the stainless freak. I prefer the kaner to the hammerhead barrels. Now this could just be all in my head, but only testing will determine if one barrel is superior to another.

Secondly, you can't be serious that you don't see the paint expense being far greater than ordering a box reballs.

I am hoping to reuse ~ 50% of the paint for later practices/recball. I figure that it will cost me ~ 100 bucks in paint

Thing is, shot pattern of paintballs will be meaningless. Not unless you can show what part of the accuracy/precision is the fault of the paintballs.

Maybe, maybe not. If barrel A shoots good with all 3 brands, and barrel B shoots only good with 1 brand of paint then IMO barrel A is better than barrel B.

[MANN]

I know that paint is not perfectly spherical that is the reason that paintballs do not go straight. It will be very hard to determine if the barrel is causing the inaccuracy or if the paint is causing it (the majority will probally be the paint). I am going to do my best to get a range of paint therfore eliminating that problem.

I have seen barrel companies state that our barrel is better than theirs because here is our shot pattern and here is the competion's shot pattern; and ours is a tighter pattern therefore a more accurate barrel. For anyone that is looking to purchase a paintball barrel that is smart enough to research their purchase i would like to provide data/reason to purchase one barrel over another. I have no ties with any barrel company, and would consider this a blind test.

I know that probally over of 50% of players will still go get a 24" barrel thinking that it will be a sniper. This test is not for those players. At the least this will let me know personally which barrel is best for me. My personal oppinion is that the gun/barrel is alot less the problem as it is the person.

Edit/Add: another difference in different barrel kits is the tolerance levels that the company holds. If I buy a kit with X number of inserts that are a certain size I expect the inserts to be exactly what is listed on them. I dont want a kit that jumps around. If thats the case there is no point of owning a barrel kit we should all just buy a piece of .75" of pipe, and tape it to our guns.
/end sarcasim

[zazzoo]

Very Cool Im glad your doing this experiment and sharing that way it can help us in one aspect as to get the best for our buck

So Thanks in advance

[emumikey]

I would recommend a bore sight. That way you know exactly where your barrel is pointed at the start of each test run.

Will help to calculate SD of each pattern.

[MANN]

I would recommend a bore sight. That way you know exactly where your barrel is pointed at the start of each test run.

Will help to calculate SD of each pattern.

:rofl: I was talking to a good friend probally 20 min ago, and his exact words were "we need to stick a lazer pointer in the barrel to help aim it" I never even knew they made such a thing. Now all I have to find is one that is ~ .68"

[StygShore]

how are the findings for the ACTUAL size of the inserts compared to what they are labeled as so far?


Styg

[bryceeden]

Where do you order it from. Its not on paintball discounters or first call.



Truthfully I couldn't tell you. Its the brand I stock but I get it strait from Archon.

[MANN]

how are the findings for the ACTUAL size of the inserts compared to what they are labeled as so far?


Styg

ummm intersting. I am right now doing a second measurement of all of them to make sure I didnt goof up. So far if I was only told the diameter of the barrels I would not purchase an empire revolver or alum freak. Hopefully I can load the data on the internet tonight

[Blazestorm]

Jesus.

I've been using the same .693, 16" CP 2 piece I got for free for the past 2 years, has shot thousands of people for me (I play a lot :P ) so I think I'll stick with this :D

[MANN]

I've been using the same .693, 16" CP 2 piece I got for free for the past 2 years, has shot thousands of people for me (I play a lot :P ) so I think I'll stick with this :D

Ive been driving a 96 blazer for the past 7 years. almost 250k on it. never gave me any major problems (no repair over 400 to date. mostly just tires, oil, and brakes). Does that mean that it is the best car for my money?

I agree completely with what you are saying. I was always content with my freak/ pmi perfect bore. I am just tring to figure out what is "the best".
:cheers:

[emumikey]

:rofl: I was talking to a good friend probally 20 min ago, and his exact words were "we need to stick a lazer pointer in the barrel to help aim it" I never even knew they made such a thing. Now all I have to find is one that is ~ .68"

Long link to one at cabelas. They dont come in any caliber over .50 as far as I know. But you could easily retrofit it by making an adapter out of wood or another material.


http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/product/standard-item.jsp?_DARGS=/cabelas/en/common/catalog/item-link.jsp_A&_DAV=perf&id=0012854711491a&navCount=11&podId=0012854&parentId=cat200006&masterpathid=&navAction=push&catalogCode=IH&rid=&parentType=index&indexId=cat200006&hasJS=true

[reflective]

Where do you order it from. Its not on paintball discounters or first call.


Actually first call does have it... here's the link Ink'd @ Firstcall (http://www.firstcallpaintball.com/pages-productinfo/product-3168/zap-inkd-2000-count-case.html) . (I think that zap has the distro deal with them, so that is why it is under zap paint, atleast that's what it seems like from the zap website, and my google search).

I also saw it at sakworld and on ebay.

[MANN]

Update to first post with data. Rows kinda got screwed up when pasting, but you get the point. They are given, actual, and difference (absolute) in order from left to right. All of them were measured ~6 times and the average is what you see. There was two rounds of measurements with two different calipers. IE it was done twice to assure accurate numbers. Both calipers are nist traceable.

The Empire revolver has two values for the actual. This is because the back and front of the inserts had quite a bit of difference on some of them. The difference was calculated with the back of the insert

[Cow123]

So far if I was only told the diameter of the barrels I would not purchase an empire revolver or alum freak.
Lame. :(

[MANN]

Lame. :(

??? because why

[Cow123]

??? because why
Because I just bought one of those.

[MANN]

Because I just bought one of those.

lol. Which one? Do you like it?

Please remember that this test is just my oppinion. I am planning on giving what I beleive is the best barrel kit, and will provide reason behind it. I hope that everyone does not believe my results. I still have to try to sell them :p

[Cow123]

lol. Which one? Do you like it?

Please remember that this test is just my oppinion. I am planning on giving what I beleive is the best barrel kit, and will provide reason behind it. I hope that everyone does not believe my results. I still have to try to sell them :p

I'm not going to blindly jump to conclusions or anything so don't worry about that.

Do I like it? I don't have air to shoot it yet, and the front piece has a dent in the lip of it preventing me from fitting my inserts all the way in, so I need to buy another tip.(this was purchased new too :cuss: ) From that excellent example of quality, your deviation results seem all the more plausible. With a .0025 difference, my .687 could be bigger than my .689

[Rudz]

oooh the irony, the empire kit and the freak kits suck, and sp is suing nps..lol, who cares, they both suck at making barrels

[k0m0d067]

you're using calipers to measure the I.D.'s??? sorry bud, but I've yet to see a set of calipers that were worth a crap at measuring I.D.'s any more accurately than maybe +/-.002...so as far as comparing the size stated on the insert, to what you're reading on the caliper's, I wouldn't put too much stock in your readings (although it would be good enough for comparing say one brand of insert to another...good enough for comparison, but not actual measurement...get me?

you want perfect numbers, send all that stuff to me, and I'll measure it with our Zeiss Contura, using poly-line scanning technology...accurate to microns...LOL and tell you how cylindrical they are as well...LOL shipping'd be a bear though...

I've already stated what barrel I believe will win your contest, but I will be very interested to see the actual outcome...

m0d0

[Jimmykaboots]

O dear me! I'm in the wrong thread, sorry Mann, I was refering to your barrel selling thread, let me move it over. Ok its edited now, sorry everyone.

[lather]

It's kinda pointless to worry about exact barrel bore diameters when paintball sizes vary so much from ball to ball.

Measure and match the paintballs instead, and shoot them through each barrels advertised bore/insert size.

[AGD]

[shakes head]

At least someone should dig up the graphic I did on how to do shot pattern statistics properly. I seem to remember it was in one of the magazines.

Barrels... the bane of my existence...

AGD

[p8ntbal4me]

Mann;

I can help you with get some results VERY quick from this test you are about to do based on my own tests I have done.

I put a barrel on my gun, loaded it with paint, aired it up, and fired it.

The results were pretty consistant,..... the paint comes out the barrel! LOL! :D


U know someone would have said it at some point! :p


I didnt see any PMI Perfect-Bores or J&J Ceramic 1 piece barrels in there (unless you have them in a very dark color)

I have a few if you want to buy or borrow for your testing,... PM me.

Paint suggestions:

Tom will have to correct me here but your going to get more "consistant" results with Tom's Perfectly round paint or Re-balls. Unless you checked each ball before loading and made sure it was the same size no matter what. Doing that seems a bit un-likely though.
I havent shot it in over 5 years, but back when I played tourney and you wanted a good ball that was easy to track and was consistantly shot, Marbalizer was the way to go.

Might wanna ask Tom,.. see what he can suggest.

[Beemer]

[shakes head]

At least someone should dig up the graphic I did on how to do shot pattern statistics properly. I seem to remember it was in one of the magazines.

Barrels... the bane of my existence...

AGD

Statistics Without Math??



If you want to impress on your parents that paintball is more than just a game, tell them in the forum tonight we were discussing a one sigma deviation of a standard distribution based on data taken from two shot groups. Mention you are worried that your error bars were getting out of control due to a lack of input but your Bell Curve should look better after more runs. That might net you some bucks for paint!

On another note Tom Kaye's Tech Tips will be a monthly feature in Action Pursuit Magazine starting in two months. We will be extending our search for truth, justice and the American Way to the rest of the paintball world!


http://www.automags.org/pic/img/techtip/tt5_pic1.jpg



http://www.automags.org/resource/tech/tomstech/05_stats.shtml


http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=19406&highlight=statistics

[MANN]

you're using calipers to measure the I.D.'s??? sorry bud, but I've yet to see a set of calipers that were worth a crap at measuring I.D.'s any more accurately than maybe +/-.002...so as far as comparing the size stated on the insert, to what you're reading on the caliper's, I wouldn't put too much stock in your readings (although it would be good enough for comparing say one brand of insert to another...good enough for comparison, but not actual measurement...get me?

you want perfect numbers, send all that stuff to me, and I'll measure it with our Zeiss Contura, using poly-line scanning technology...accurate to microns...LOL and tell you how cylindrical they are as well...LOL shipping'd be a bear though...

I've already stated what barrel I believe will win your contest, but I will be very interested to see the actual outcome...

m0d0

hmmm thats intersting that you say that. I have a nist calibration from AAJanson that states that they are accurate +-.0005" (these are not the Lowes 16.99 special version. I believe that we spend a few hundred dollars on them). We use them at work for measuring the internal diameter for nozzle calibrations. They have to be very accurate to allow for permitting for air emissions. I used the same procedures that are stated in the CFR (dont remember the exact number) to measure the internal diameters.

Either way like you stated they will tell me between the difference between the different kits.


It's kinda pointless to worry about exact barrel bore diameters when paintball sizes vary so much from ball to ball.

Measure and match the paintballs instead, and shoot them through each barrels advertised bore/insert size.

Yes, and no. Ill agree that paintballs vary in size, but if I am spending 100+ on a barrel I expect to recieve a barrel kit that has a range of inserts instead of a kit that is hit and miss.

I am hoping on buing a high enough quality paintball that the size varriance is minimal. I am mulling over the decision to just use reballs instead/with paintballs.


[shakes head]

At least someone should dig up the graphic I did on how to do shot pattern statistics properly. I seem to remember it was in one of the magazines.

Barrels... the bane of my existence...

AGD

:rofl: I have read through quite a few threads reading your results about rifeling a paintball. I plan on completing the statistics using your method, and some others for each barrel.

p8ntbal4me: Im probally going to take you up on purchasing/borrowing your barrels. I dont have either of the two you listed.
After seeing others oppinions and thinking about it a little more I believe that I will probally pick up a case of reballs to use to suplement the test. Maybe 20 marbs/xball gold, and 20 reballs per barrel/bore.

Beemer: I had already read them, but thanks anyways. :cheers:

[p8ntbal4me]

Just shoot me the PM,.. I'll take some pictures so you can see em,... I have some others too if your missing em.

PMed you bout some other business too,.. send replies whren u get a chance :)


p8ntbal4me: Im probally going to take you up on purchasing/borrowing your barrels. I dont have either of the two you listed.
After seeing others oppinions and thinking about it a little more I believe that I will probally pick up a case of reballs to use to suplement the test. Maybe 20 marbs/xball gold, and 20 reballs per barrel/bore.

[Dover]

Wow, this is really kewl. I love you Mann. But not in a freaky way, just paintballer luv. Keep up the good work! :shooting:

[Tao]

[shakes head]

At least someone should dig up the graphic I did on how to do shot pattern statistics properly. I seem to remember it was in one of the magazines.

Barrels... the bane of my existence...

AGD

Its on this site :)

http://www.automags.org/resource/tech/tomstech/05_stats.shtml

[Desega]

I think I am going to use 3 different types of balls. I am needing suggestions for what to use.
Looks like you already figured it out, but Proball Platnuim is an excellent medium bore paint at an excellent price.

[Smoothice]

Do you have an ACI Phat barrel kit in the mix?

[MANN]

Do you have an ACI Phat barrel kit in the mix?

nope, not yet. I was going to purchase one on ebay yesterday, but am running a little low on $$.

The balls that are going to be used are

Marbs (Huge thanks to P8intFun for donating 2 cases)
Stingers
heat
recsport
Xball gold
reballs
russballs (or whatever the off brand is called)

[emumikey]

I wish you would get this over with so I can order my barrel kit...... :cry:

[MANN]

I wish you would get this over with so I can order my barrel kit...... :cry:

you and me both. I am broke and want to get rid of some of these barrels. As of right now I am waiting on

Sanchez machine (now 2 weeks waiting... ordered on march 9th)
Paintball discounters
Action Village
And a few others that are lending me their barrels. More than likely I will do the test on April 7-8. :fingerscrossed:

[Chaos_Theory!]

Why would you blow all that money on barrles? No matter what tests you do your not going to find "the best" barrel. Just because you may come up with some statistics doesnt mean anythign at all. All the time and money will amount to nothing (aside form the few people who will swear by it for god knows why). Im not trying to be an *** but thats suh a waste.

[trevorjk]

I've already stated what barrel I believe will win your contest, but I will be very interested to see the actual outcome...

m0d0


ooo let me guess... its the purple one! :p

[p_aint_fun]

Paint went out yesterday. Pm'd you the tracking number.

[MANN]

Why would you blow all that money on barrles? No matter what tests you do your not going to find "the best" barrel. Just because you may come up with some statistics doesnt mean anythign at all. All the time and money will amount to nothing (aside form the few people who will swear by it for god knows why). Im not trying to be an *** but thats suh a waste.

lol. This coming from a fellow paintballer who doesnt waste money on paintball?? Its a hobby. They are all expensive.
-If I go play golf its 40 for green fees + beer.
-Hockey here is ~ 20 bucks for an hour of play + an extra 20 bucks afterwards for beer/food.
-How about my dogs Lets see here ~ 600 for each (not including akc registration) They are great pyrenees so they eat a ton. Last weekend we spent 200 dollars on dog/cat food for the next month (so an average of 2000 a year) if they live 10-12 years then thats 20,000 +1200+ vet bills = lots of money.
-Lets talk about college tuition..Im giving ~ 4k a semester and am not going to do what I went to school for when I get out. so thats 4k*8semesters = 32k not including books, calculators, computers, etc, etc.

My point is you cant take money with you when you leave (according to my belief system), and that you might as well have fun while your here.

Yes you are correct that it will be hard to determing "the best" barrel. The results will mean nothing to some people, and others will believe anything they read. Millions probally billions of dollars are spent every year searching for dinosaur bones. What good does this do? (Sorry Tom....I just threw it out there because it was the first thing that came to mind. As an engineering student I realize some of the benifits that it could provide).

If nothing else comes from this test I will be able to say that barrel xyz is not superior than any other barrel. THey are all the same.

[MANN]

Paint went out yesterday. Pm'd you the tracking number.

Just FYI for anyone who is reading this. p_aint_fun donated 2 cases of marbs for the test.

I would like to give a huge THANKS.
-Josh

[Desega]

I agree with Bryce. Ink'd is a great cheap paint. Also, for $50 a case, proball platinuim is awesome. Get it from archon paintball.

[cyberave68]

Hey Mann,

I just got the 14" SLY barrel kit last month. Only seen about a case of paint. I would be willing to loan it to you for your tests if you need it. LMK

Cy

[MANN]

Here is a list of every barrel that is going to be used

Freak SS (9 different fronts)
Freak Alum
Hammerhead
Empire Revolver
Scepter
Scepter
Pipe
Empire 7 piece
Apex
Kaner
CCM
Stiffi
Custom Products
Redz Pepperstick
Dye UL .695 (proto front)
Dye UL .689 (back)
Dye UL .692 (blue front)
JJ Barrel kit
JJ Edge kit
Dye black dust
Dye UL .685 back
Un1tec (.685, .689, .693, .695)
Sanchez Machine SM1
Matchstik
Race barrel with 1 insert
Misc barrel unported
tear drop barrel
Xmag barrel
lucky un1tec blue/red
dye xcel

-Barrels that will hopefully arrive this week
lapco big shot
ACI Phat kit
Dye Boomstick
Titanium longbow
pipe front. Stiffi Black Mamba 16
lucky 15 (.685)
winforce barrel
EagleWorks
14” sly kit
16" sly kit
palmers 12" brass

If anyone wants to have their barrel/s tested I would be more than happy to do it. I will pay return shipping on any barrel that is sent to me. If anyone is interested in making any type of donation (paint or money) please PM me.

[StygShore]

Finally got your SM-1 kit?


Styg

[MANN]

Finally got your SM-1 kit?


Styg

Not very pleased tho. After waiting 3 weeks i only recieved half of it. Im waiting on my big bore kit.

[StygShore]

Anyone know if Sanchez had a booth at Hermosa Beach last week?

They are like 30 miles from there, figured it would be an easy setup for them.


Hope you get your bores, I thought about ordering another .689 bore its the only one I have thats pretty trashed from a previous owner. Sanchez service leaves a lot to be desired that's for sure. Hope the barrels performs as well as the few Sanchez barel owners I have talked to said it does.

I was going to order a new one then port the last inch of the tore up one I have and use it as a super short barrel on my Mini :)


Styg

[MANN]

I think I will have a spare. (If I get the second half) Ill let you know. I only need 1 .689

[StygShore]

Please do

Trying to find the Flame tips, and SM style barrel that doesnt use the hub as well - preferrably in Red with the window for the sizers.

I know SP did their usualy C&D Order or we'll sue you into oblivion thing on the windowed versions, but I occasionally see them around.


Thanks

Styg

[MANN]

SP patiented windows?? lol. I replaced all my 12 windows a couple of years ago. I hope they dont see. :ninja:

[StygShore]

Indeed SP patented windows that show the barrel size on barrels... how sad is that


Styg

[billmi]

Now that's FUNNY! :rofl:

Firstly, the variations from one box of paint to the next will probably invalidate your test results.

Secondly, you can't be serious that you don't see the paint expense being far greater than ordering a box reballs.



Thing is, shot pattern of paintballs will be meaningless. Not unless you can show what part of the accuracy/precision is the fault of the paintballs.


My high school physics teacher used to love to tell this story.

A chicken farmer hired some engineers to build an automated chicken plucker. He paid a lot of money, and after a year they delivered a machine. He put a chicken in, started it, and it spit out a mutilated, partially plucked chicken carcass. He sent it back, and months later, the 2.0 model was shipped to him with different but equally ineffective results. After the third revision, the engineers finally cam out and asked to watch him test the machine. "Well there's the problem right there! Your chickens aren't spherical. We designed and tested based on an optimal spherical chicken model."

Testing with Reballs will do a great job of showing which barrel has the best accuracy with Reballs. Reballs are not paintballs though - they have different friction against the barrel - and in general tend to be more consistently spherical. Using them and then expecting the resultant data to apply to paintball use would be, as my high school physics teacher would say - "A spherical chicken assumption."

Taking multiple shots - the more the better - increases the size of the data set to overcome individual paintball variance, and provide a more realistic picture of true real-world performance.

It would, I expect, be a similar assumption to assume that one barrel performing best on an Autococker (closed bolt, poppet valve) means that it would also be the best performance on a DM (open bolt, spool valve.)

IMHO, Mann is very much on the right track.

[SlartyBartFast]

Testing with Reballs will do a great job of showing which barrel has the best accuracy with Reballs. Reballs are not paintballs though - they have different friction against the barrel - and in general tend to be more consistently spherical. Using them and then expecting the resultant data to apply to paintball use would be, as my high school physics teacher would say - "A spherical chicken assumption."

Cute story. But not particularly relevant.

When testing, you want to remove as many variables as possible. Out of round paintballs would be one factor you'd want to eliminate.

You may have a point that barrel friction is different for a paintball compared to a reball.

Now, if you don't eliminate roundness and weight differences, how do you propose to get a statistically valid data set that accounts for size and weight differences between paintballs, between boxes, and between batches?

Going to need a lot of paint....

[billmi]

Cute story. But not particularly relevant.

When testing, you want to remove as many variables as possible. Out of round paintballs would be one factor you'd want to eliminate.


I disagree. I would only want to eliminate out of round paintballs if I was trying to find which barrel was best - at shooting perfectly round paintballs. However, if the goal is to find the best for real world performance, out of round paintballs are a reality, and in my opinion is better to overcome the issues of their variance by shooting more of them - so one can get a practical picture of performance, than to shoot a non-paintball and assume that real paintballs will mimick its performance.

In fact, for even more telling data, it might even be worth sorting paint by quality and roundness and testing. It has been my observation (anecdotal, so take it with a grain of salt) that Armson rifled barrels seem to do better with out of round paint than typical smooth bore barrels. If that is true, then a re-ball test would unrealistically rank them worse, than a real-world large sample paintball based test. Whether it be true or not, the paintballs are going to give a more telling picture of what to expect at the field.



Now, if you don't eliminate roundness and weight differences, how do you propose to get a statistically valid data set that accounts for size and weight differences between paintballs, between boxes, and between batches?


You answer your own question...



Going to need a lot of paint....

Always, the larger your data set becomes the more reliabile your conclusions become.
Even better when you get more people/labs running independent confirmation.

[MANN]

right now we have 25000 rounds of paint + 500 reballs

[MANN]

I finished the gun table today. Took a few shots and everything seems solid. Hooked up the electronic manometer, and was able to get readings. They were not consistant, but were registering. I used reballs and .696 barrel so that could have been the reason. the bore sight works wonderfully, and is a tight fit with # 9&10 orings installed. Im going to do more test tonight/make the target stand/paintball catcher. Test will be preformed saturday.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/th_IMG_1602.jpg (http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/IMG_1602.jpg)
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/th_IMG_1601.jpg (http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/IMG_1601.jpg)
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/th_IMG_1600.jpg (http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/IMG_1600.jpg)

[Thanna]

Have you checked out the actual bore sizes for the sly kit yet? ;) I'm curious to see what their mfg tolerance is. Not a bad looking rig. Hope the tests go well this weekend. :D

[MANN]

Have you checked out the actual bore sizes for the sly kit yet? ;) I'm curious to see what their mfg tolerance is. Not a bad looking rig. Hope the tests go well this weekend. :D

Not had a chance to get data yet. I had to rebuild the marker table to insure that there is no recoil with the barrel/gun. The kapp drop that was previously used allowed the barrel to move a little. Here is version 5. versions 2,3,4 were all improvements, but still allowed the gun to viberate a little.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/th_IMG_1604.jpg (http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/IMG_1604.jpg)
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/th_IMG_1603.jpg (http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/IMG_1603.jpg)

[MANN]

Alright guys I actually got to start the test today. Wow is there more involved then I ever imagined. To start things off setup took quit a while. We wanted to make sure we recorded every piece of data where everything was located so that if we needed to setup again we would know.

Here is what we did so far:
-We took a 25 ball sample of each case of paint to have weighed.

-We determined that the lenght of the barrel makes NO difference. We used Xball Gold (which I have to say is an awesome brand of paint) and shot it throught the same insert, and every different lenght of freak tips. There was no difference what so ever. The spread looked very similar

-We did a sound profile for each freak length when using marbilizer paint. It showed a little difference, but not much.

-We completely tested every bore in the freak system with a 14" front. We used 6 types of paint and reballs (reballs were only used untill .684iirc)

The paint used was as mentioned before Xball gold, marballizers, rec sport, heat, stingers, and some Monster Balls that has been sitting in my basement since December(and on Walmart's shelf for god only knows how long prior to that). This stuff has more dimples than a golf ball. This is I didnt order/pick up paint in time, and am having to use what I find on the field quality.

The testing today was very very long. It is taking us ~ an hour per bore to test 6 paints and reballs. Tomorrow we are going to narrow it down to 4 types of balls. There are a couple of reasons for this. Reballs are way too small to shoot straight out of anything bigger than a .682. Diablo Heat is also giving us alot of problems with its sizing. It is smaller than the reballs. I almost feel like we just got a horrible batch of it. I would guess that if/when I mic it it will be ~.66ish. It was consistantly off the wall inaccurate... The velocities were a crap shoot, and would usually be +- 75 fps than the previous/next type of paint with the same bore. The stingers were very similar to both the marbs, and rec sport so we feel that the other two will give general representation of it. Again we hate to eliminate any extra data we have, but we simply dont have time.

Today I counted, and we have 150 different bores (ie a sly kit has 5 bores, and a 1 piece barrel has 1 bore). While we are going to try our best to shoot through all it just isnt going to happen. We will probally pick ~ 3 bores from each kit to test 4 types of paint with. We are going to have more people participate tomorrow, and we will not have the setup time that we had today. I will try to start early, but started at 5:00 yesterday (its now 12:30 here). Im going to head to bead, and will post updates throughout the day tomorrow. If push comes to shove we will do a few test next saturday, but no promises. I have a Great Pyrenees that is expecting puppies in 1-2 weeks, and that takes priority.

Here is a few photos that were taken today before/during/after the test. We also recorded ~ 2hr of footage (2 hrs of me shooting a paintball gun. on/off of course).

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/th_DSCN0771.jpg (http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/DSCN0771.jpg)

"cleaning barrel station"

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/th_DSCN0770.jpg (http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/DSCN0770.jpg)

The gun setup

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/th_DSCN0768.jpg (http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/DSCN0768.jpg)

Evan and my wife Ashley. You can see my back half in the background

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/th_DSCN0764.jpg (http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/DSCN0764.jpg)

DJ pretending to looking important

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/th_DSCN0763.jpg (http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/DSCN0763.jpg)

Brandon transfering some of these pictures on the pc

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/th_DSCN0757.jpg (http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/DSCN0757.jpg)

Barrel table 2

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/th_DSCN0756.jpg (http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/DSCN0756.jpg)

Barrel table 1

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/th_100_0194.jpg (http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/100_0194.jpg)

Me (Josh/Mann) seting up the marker

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/th_100_0193.jpg (http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/100_0193.jpg)

What we are shooting at

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/th_100_0190.jpg (http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/100_0190.jpg)

What I see when shooting

[RA1N1ER]

cool set up Josh..... :headbang:

I was wondering about the performance of the Matchstik barrels.
Good luck with the testing, Have a nice Easter weekend.

[MANN]

cool set up Josh..... :headbang:

I was wondering about the performance of the Matchstik barrels.
Good luck with the testing, Have a nice Easter weekend.

havent used it yet. This is taking a crazy long time. so far 5 kits tested :cry:

[Tao]

havent used it yet. This is taking a crazy long time. so far 5 kits tested :cry:

Hey keep up the good work. This project should go a long way for many people! :clap:

[MANN]

Hey keep up the good work. This project should go a long way for many people! :clap:

I hope so. 32 bores down ~63 to go. Guess the easter bunny will have to visit me here.

[cyberave68]

WOW MANN the set up is pretty impressive. Looks like you'll be spening the night there just to finish :rofl: Cant wait to see the results(And get my barrel back :shooting: )
Have a Happy Easter...

[Thanna]

Hehheh. Happy Easter :D . Good luck on the rest of your tests. Don't lose my kit either ;) Take care :cool:

[MANN]

Hehheh. Happy Easter :D . Good luck on the rest of your tests. Don't lose my kit either ;) Take care :cool:

Your barrel. :confused: I dont have yours.

Anyone want to buy a 16" sly. LNIB. :ninja:


:p

[bryguy27007]

Wow, that set up looks awesome.
That would be very time consuming, but it is nice that you are doing it just out of curiosity.
I am going to love seeing the data when you are finished.

[MANN]

The test is not over. Not even close. We will have to continue next weekend.

Alright here is what has happend so far, and the next steps that we are going to do. Please note that sometimes I just copy and paste from other forums so sometimes I act like I am repling to someone, and you may have no idea what I am talking about

I sorta forgot about Easter this weekend, and had to quit early to do the family thing (didnt bother me tho we worked from 5am-1am friday, 8am-11pm saturday, and 6am-4pm today sunday) This testing process is very time consuming, and I hope that it is worth it at the end.

Some of the reasons that we are having problems is that we are shooting 100 balls through each bore of each kit (4 types of balls). We change targets after every 25 balls, and check where the barrel is aimed with the bore sight at the begining and end of each type of ball. We are marking where each individual ball is hitting the target so that we can compare the velocities with the shots. This has been key as some of the "wild ball" shots have been velocity spikes that were probally caused by less than spherical paintballs.

We have shot reballs at the beginning of each day thru .679 insert, and our velocity on the xmag only deviates ~+- 5bps. This should indicate that the gun is doing fairly good.

Just off the top of my head we have tested the following kits: sly, stiffi, ccm (all cf), kaner, empire 7pc kit, freak ss (with all fronts), pps brass, matchstik. I know we did more, but am kinda blank now.

At the start (day1) we were doing almost 200 balls per bore, but had to lower it due to time restraints.

So far I have made a few observations, but please keep in mind these are not backed by data (yet) This is just from what I have seen sitting behind the marker

PPS brass-scale 1-10 I would give it a 7. It shot many diff bore paints, and shoots all equally. It is not by any means as accurate as some barrel kits, but defiently an all around good single bore.

Hammerhead- ummmm. ahhhh. welllll. hmmmm. I havent seen anything to make me think I am going to keep it yet. It does seem to be consistant with every bore regardless of paint (ie you really dont have to match paint to bore), but not nearly as consistant as the pps.

Carbon fiber kits- There was not a huge difference in them. (not really suprising) I am sure the data will give a better understanding of this later.

freak ss, matchstik, empire 7pc - all seem decent, but none have really stood out to be superior to any other

kaner- I didnt finish this one completely. We kept having breaks. I got a little frustrated with cleaning out the barrel every few shots, and decided to call it a day before loosing my mind.

I have had a few request to list a paypal for donations so here it is. Joshallis@bellsouth.net . Any/all donations are appriciated. I will provide data regardless of recieving any money, but anything to lessen the 85.00 that we spent on paper targets alone this weekend would help.

Here are some pics of some of the progress.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/th_IMG_1628.jpg (http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/IMG_1628.jpg)
Some pics of the first type of targets. (we went thru 3 150' rolls of brown paper, and then switch to pre cut graph paper. Man do I wish I knew of it earlier)

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/th_IMG_1639.jpg (http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/IMG_1639.jpg)
Pics of the second paper, and my device that replaced us having to use a staple gun. We had at least 10lb of staples on the "target holder" before I thought of this.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/th_IMG_1636.jpg (http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/IMG_1636.jpg)
These are my anti loss pod devices. Basicly some type of industrial enamel spraypaint that I put on all my pods/loaner tanks so that I can easily spot them on the field. It withistands being shot, and works great.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/th_IMG_1618.jpg (http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/IMG_1618.jpg)
Pics of us sorting used paint. Nick is on the right, and Brandon and Evan are on the left.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/th_IMG_1613.jpg (http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/IMG_1613.jpg)
Me waiting on the target to be setup.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/th_DSCN0771.jpg (http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/DSCN0771.jpg)
Finished table. (ie barrels/bores that have been already done)

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/th_100_0195.jpg (http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/100_0195.jpg)
My paintball catching device. We recovered quite a few paintballs, but sorting/cleaning sucked bad.

Edit:
We will be finishing the kits next weekend, and also doing a shoot thru test. This being where we will break 2 paintballs inside the barrel, shoot 5 shots to clean out the bore, and then record the rest of the shots.

Edit 2: Just fyi. The paint that we are currently using is xball gold, marballizer, rec sport, and what I call the christmas crud. It is monsterballs that I got around christmas from walmart, and have had sitting in my basement eversince. (ended up getting better paint at the time) This stuff looks like eggs, and has more dimples than a golf ball. It has been awesome watching it shoot, and has imo seperated the good and bad barrels.

[varq]

anyone try the lapco snapshot set?

[emumikey]

I donated money. Since I am officially a stake holder...I DEMAND RESULTS!!!!

But seriously, when are you looking to wrap this bad boy up? :cheers:

[ricwhic414]

MANN
I think you are doing a great thing here and I am very excited to see what the data says about some of the barrel kits... Now I know you already have a ton of things to test but I wanted to know if you are testing any different barrel tips for some of the barrel kits as in a stiffi tip, I am not sure of any other tips out there but I was just wondering if you had any stiffi tips to see if those helped on the performance at all.
Keep up the good work.

[madcrisis]

you should test an endgame compression barrel. i love this barrel and in my opinion shoots just as straight as any other barrel kit.

[MANN]

anyone try the lapco snapshot set?
I havent. If you have one and can get it here by saturday I will test it.


I donated money. Since I am officially a stake holder...I DEMAND RESULTS!!!!

But seriously, when are you looking to wrap this bad boy up? :cheers:

LOL. Thanks for the donation. It defiently helps a ton. As of last weekend we have spent~200.00 on paper targets alone.


MANN
Now I know you already have a ton of things to test but I wanted to know if you are testing any different barrel tips for some of the barrel kits as in a stiffi tip,

Thanks for the encouragement. We have a stiffi front that we are testing with a pipe kit to see if there is any difference.


you should test an endgame compression barrel. i love this barrel and in my opinion shoots just as straight as any other barrel kit.

If you can have an autococker threaded one to me by sat we can test it. This weekend will be undoubtly the last weekend of shooting.

Sorry to all for not updating this more often. I sorta forget about what forum I have posted on untill I get the friendly reminder from the subscribed thread read it, and realize I havent given an update.

I would also like to note that this is on amost every paintball forum (roughly the 20 I know of) and some/all have different info/views about the test. I know there are roughly ~400post on pbn, and quite a few on specops, mcarterbrown, pbreview, etc, etc.


We worked last weekend friday 6pm-8pm, saturday 8am-3am, and sunday 10am-730pm.

IIRC this weekend we finished the following barrel kits
Phat
TI Longbow
Scepter
JJ Edge
Dye ULs/Boomstick/Xcel
Custom Products
Mcdev Matchstik
Freak Alum
Lucky Un1tec
Empire Revolver
hmmm. It seems like there were more, but maybe not.

My scubas were low(after providing air for 20k shots I was suprised they had anything left) and we were tired so we decided it would be best to finish next weekend.

We also were able to weigh all the backs/fronts/inserts. Those results were rather intersting on one or two kits. (Ie usually the smaller bores were heavier than the larger bores; as they should be due to having more material. This was not always the case). We went through 250 more sheets of paper for the targets, and ~ 4 cases of paint. We also were able to collect data for the sample balls that we saved. (5 out of each bag/20 from each case). We weighed, and measured all of them.

All we have left for the actual accuracy testing is pipe, sanchez machine (If I get the the second half of my kit that I ordered/paid for in on March 8th. :cuss: Its not the color I wanted :cuss: ), redz, and ~8 misc/stock barrels (xmag stock, proto stock, triliogy stock, etc,etc) There should only be 20 bores left (Ie 80 more targets/1 case of paint).

We plan on getting started again early next saturday, and preforming the "shoot after a break" test afterwards. Everything has to be finished next weekend as I am expecting puppies (10-12 Great Pyrenees) on the 21st (next sunday), and will have to attend to them.

After mulling it over I think I have finally decided what I think is relavant to post as far as results. Please give me feedback/your .02$ on this.

I will post for each kit/barrel:
--- weights
--- dimensions
--- sounds
--- All envionmental conditions (temp, % humitidy, elevation, etc)
--- I will list what bore of each kit passes the "blow thru test" for each type of paint (as this is what the majority of us do when we play). I will post the result of that bore along with the most accurate bore's results for each kit (it may be the same for some barrels). I will include velocity data with each. This should cut down on time for me to get the initial results out. Ie it will only be 8 accuracy results per kit (as apposed to 4 results per bore per kit. Ie for the freak alum kit there will be 32 results). I will finish all of the, but dont think people want to have to sort thru~ 600 sets of target that we currently have.
--- I am going choose the top 2 bore/s and paint/s that preformed the best for each kit. I am going to use those to conduct the "accuracy after a break" test. (Basicly I am taking 2 paintballs, and cutting them in half, and cramming them down the back of the barrel. I will then install the barrel on my marker, and shoot 5 balls to "clean" out the barrel (these shots will not be recorded). After that we will shoot ~ 25 balls, and record them as we did with the accuracy test).
--- Video & Pics of setup/testing as time allows (again. We have ~13.5 hr of footage right now, and expect more. Most are in 2 min clips of the target when I shoot the marker)

And some pics just to change the scenery.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/th_IMG_1672.jpg (http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/IMG_1672.jpg)
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/th_IMG_1670.jpg (http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/IMG_1670.jpg)
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/th_IMG_1666.jpg (http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/IMG_1666.jpg)

These are all pics of what I refer to as christmas crap. We purchased some monster ball paintballs from Wal-Mart sometime last Dec. It was opened, and later dumped into a 5 gallon bucket. It has sat there ever since, and is in horrible condition. I swear that one is going to curve around to hit me, and I am standing behind the marker. It flight path is nothing shy of hilarious.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/th_IMG_1683.jpg (http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i83/mannsports/barrel%20test/IMG_1683.jpg)

Pics of the best hopper ever made. The old viweloader 2000. Painted yellow of course so I dont loose it. The greatest thing is I dont have to hear it spin/turn it off after the paint is gone. (that almost killed me last weekend)

[Smoothice]

I will post for each kit/barrel:
--- dimensions


Will this be what the actual bore size is compared to what the manufacturer states the bore size is?

[MANN]

Will this be what the actual bore size is compared to what the manufacturer states the bore size is?

yes. While we have already measured this with calibrated calipers (first page) it has been brought to my attention that this is not the correct way to measure the internal diameter of a cylinder (although this is the way the EPA regulates emission controls). We are aquiring more accurate measurement tools to remeasure all the dimensions of every barrel/bore.

[ricwhic414]

Thanks for the encouragement. We have a stiffi front that we are testing with a pipe kit to see if there is any difference.


Well thats perfect because that is what I use... And in my experience I thought the stiffi front did make a difference, but maybe that was the $75 price tag talking.

[madcrisis]

sry i only have 1 in 98 custom threads (autococker is on the way when i have money)

[GhostWalker]

thank you for taking the time to try and sort this out. this is coming right when i started loking for a new barrel :clap:

[DBC]

So, how did the barrel test go this past weekend?

[MANN]

Sorry I havent updated this recently. We did finish all of the test (only took ~16 days/ but we only worked 8 of those 16) . To all of those who let me borrow a barrel please EMAIL ME. Joshallis@bellsouth.net . I am going to try to return all the barrels in the next week or so. I would also like to Thank everyone who has supported this test. We have got some really good results, and I am egar to finishing crunching the numbers. I am stating that everything will be done by June 1, but hope to finish in the next week or two.

Due to unforseen circumstances I will be postiing some of the results here later today.

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=2088833

Again THANKS to everyone who helped.

-Josh / "Mann"

Edit: you can also reach me on PBN or BEO as Mann

[madcrisis]

so which 1 won. i cant find it

[jade_monkey07]

iv gone through a few barrels since i started, but i fell in love yesterday with the hammerhead and the sharktooth. best iv ever shot we tried it on 5 diffirent guns, 6 diffirent paint types and it was incredible, the range was far superior to my 14 inch freak, and the accuracy was second to none, even the sharktooth was beating my freak kit with the same paint and bore size in distance and accuracy

[MANN]

iv gone through a few barrels since i started, but i fell in love yesterday with the hammerhead and the sharktooth. best iv ever shot we tried it on 5 diffirent guns, 6 diffirent paint types and it was incredible, the range was far superior to my 14 inch freak, and the accuracy was second to none, even the sharktooth was beating my freak kit with the same paint and bore size in distance and accuracy

:rolleyes: What guns/what paint/what kind of freak?

[madcrisis]

which 1 won????????????

[MANN]

I am not going to state a "winner" I will post results for all the findings within the next 30 days. Keep an eye out for them

-Josh

[emumikey]

:( <----- this is me waiting.....

[MANN]

:( <----- this is me waiting.....

LOL Im sorry.

:sleeping: :cry: :cuss: :tard: <--------- this is me working

We have about half done. I have pushed back the "due" date to june 10th. sorry :cheers:

[cyberave68]

:( <----- this is me waiting.....

LOL Im sorry.

:sleeping: :cry: :cuss: :tard: <--------- this is me working

:rofl: :rofl: <------- this is me reading your post...

[RaggedyManny]

Mann, let me just say that I appreciate the research and work you are doing. In short, you rock. I think I will wait as eagerly as the rest for the results.

[MANN]

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=2218018



Here is part/alot of the data. It is not complete, but I am working on it. I am not going to post this on every forum yet as I dont want to have to edit all of them. (Please note this is on over 20 different forums).



Thanks

[d4m4don3]

Great work dude!

:hail:

[RA1N1ER]

Josh,

Many thanks for you and your team for doing this.... This information really helps alot for the questions in mind regarding differences....


My hat's off to you Bruddha.... :hail: :cheers: :hail:

[JadeMonkey]

I haven't gotten through everything yet but I wanted to thank you for doing this Mann. It's nice to see a fellow engineer taking on a project like this and doing it right. Cheers! :cheers:

-Jade

[Dover]

Can't access my PM's, e-mail me at: ballersproshop@hotmail.com

Please!!!! I would like to buy the Trilogy, I have the cash money, need your Info (Name and Address) for Payment please!!! (Mr. J. B.)