Lets Discuss Accuracy vs Fragile Paint

[AGD]

Learned Scholars of AO,

Now that we have covered barrel theory and statistical analysis etc. we can discuss some real world situations for the next generation of guns we are developing.

We have several different manufacturers guns on the gun dyno right now spanning the performance range. We are coming to a decision point on which performance envelope to point toward. Here are the some of the considerations;

Low pressure ball acceleration, commonly found in the low pressure guns by default. Best config. for fragile paint. Uses more air because the ball takes longer to accelerate. Our testing is showing that low pressure acceleration is less consistent in velocity. Longer bolt close time takes away from ball drop time.

Medium pressure ball acceleration, commonly found in markers with 4-600 psi working pressure. This still falls in the range considered to be good on fragile paint but not the best. Much better on efficiency is a big bonus. Shorter bolt close time allows for more reliable high firing rates. Faster ball acceleration is showing more consistency in testing.

So for purposes of discussion, since we know that consistent velocity directly contributes to better accuracy (let's hope there are no arguments there) which direction would you think to go and why? If you had two identical markers, one handled fragile paint better but was less accurate or the other shot straight but had barrel breaks more often which would it be for you?

AGD

ps This is not about other markers, this is all in theory.

[Russ]

Tom,

I would most definitly like to see guns that are more tolerant to brittle paint, i.e. low pressure. The industry trend is to make paint that breaks every time on your opponent, and unfortunatly that means more breaks in the gun.

You pose the question of better accuracy, with a "harsher" cycling, which is harder on the paint. Or less consistency (read, accuracy) but easier on paint.

Well, perhaps I'm just too greedy, but what I want is consistency AND no ball breaks/chops! But given the choice, at this point in my VERY limited paintball experience, I want a gun that is easy on paint. Accuracy is a moot point when your swabbing your barrel!

Even though you ask not to specifically discuss individual guns, it's been my experience (again, limited) that while my E-Mag is breaking paint, my son's GenX-3 'cocker just keeps shooting away. We shoot the same paint, under the same conditions. My son often "reminds" me of this fact. My initial excitement over my E-Mag is waneing. My faith is being tested. I want guns that are gentle on paint. I want to stay in the game, not swab my barrel.

Russ

AGD edit: Standby Russ we hear you.

[Oregon_pb_]

I think a, hmm, lets make up a company so not to pick any one specifically. Lets call it "DGA". Lets say DGA has mastered the high pressure range of guns, they have markers that can shoot 25 shots per second with no shoot down. What should they master next?

In my vast array of paintball experience (8 + years ) most players don't need the capability of shooting that fast, alot are happy with pulling strings of 8 balls per second. With these players in mind i would hope DGA would invest in going low pressure for their new project. Get the operating pressure around 100-200 psi. It may not 20 bps, but it will be alot easier on paint.

Knowing DGA has a long history of excellent quality i'd buy there new Project X if they went low pressure with it.

[toymyster]

I would have to go with ability to handle brittle paint!!! And for the accuracy, I'll make it up in volume!!!!

[BlackVCG]

Well, with the paint drop testing, we've already established that paint is getting more brittle in general for obvious reasons. Where paint will go from here is hard to say, but I can't see it getting anymore brittle, or else paint will be breaking in shipping more often than acceptable.

Ball breaks flat out annoy the crap out of me and if there was a gun that NEVER broke paint or on the ratio of about 1 in 5 cases I'd be satisfied. Breaking paint means your accuracy goes down the tube and you're down until you can get the barrel cleaned. So to have a more accurate marker, but it brakes paint more often, in effect cancels out the positive attribute of being more accurate because it's only accurate for so long before it breaks paint (I'm kinda going towards the extreme side in this case).

However, look at the extreme on the other side of the spectrum and you have a gun that never breaks paint, but has the accuracy of one case = one kill.

The obvious choice is to find somewhere in the middle that gives both the benefits of consistency and minimal ball breakage. I however, would lean slighty more towards the focus on ball breakage by making a gun that can shoot 99% of all paints with minimal to no breaks, yet maintain a reasonable level of consistency.

For two reasons. Paint is getting more brittle these days and if you're going to be able to shoot it and get it out of the barrel ALL the time, you need a gun designed to shoot it. Secondly, I personally would sacrifice a level of accuracy if that meant I wouldn't have to be cleaning the barrel a few times per day. As you've stated before, this will always be a game of accuracy by volume. So make a gun that can put out that volume without breaking any paint.

[BlackVCG]

Damn Russ, you and I were typing the same thoughts, but you were a bit quicker. :)

[kilaueakid]

Boy, This really is a tough one. Especially considering paintball manufactures are producing more and more weak paint. I think this trend is going to continue especially for the tournament players where every hit counts and you don't want bouncers. Fragile paint=less bouncers. In theory, they are directing the way markers operate(high pressure/low pressure) based on the strength of the paintballs.

I guess the ultimate direction to go would be to make a marker that you can adjust it from operating in low pressure for those days when all there is is fragile paint, and high pressure for days when you have excellent paint and are aiming for better air efficency, more stable velocity, and higher rates of fire.

If it would be impossible to make a marker that can switch from low to medium pressure, I guess my vote would have to go toward the medium pressure. I would rather have the more consistent velocity/better accuracy with an occasional barrel break.

Anti-chop eyes are going to eliminate many, many gun/ball breakage problems. I have already seen it with my gun. I have averaged about 1 barrel breaks/case2000 with 1-2 drop pmi paint. I would imagine even the lowest operating guns on the planet barrel break paint once in awhile.

Something alittle off topic. I notice I rarely get nasty welts anymore. Most the time it doesn't sting like it used to either. Could this be that back in the day 10 years ago paint was harder? Sometimes I hardly even feel it when I get hit. Anyone else notice this?

I have used markers with lower operating pressures...one in particular, I won't mention any names but it starts with a capital A, and I didn't notice it being any nicer with fragile paint.

Kila

[FooTemps]

I'd say make a med pres gun in the lower part of that pres spectrum so about 400-450 psi. That way it can handle paint ok but it still can maintain accuracy. Well, at least I think it's how it works. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[kilaueakid]

Hey Foo...
I think we already have that with the mag!!!

[Bluntman]

Obviously my opinion doesn't matter since everyone disagrees, but I would rather have accuracy and just have to use harder shelled paint. But low pressure would sell more guns so go with that. I'll just have to design my own gun...

[AGD]

I would like to hear more comments on what an adjustable pressure marker would be worth to you.


AGD

[kilaueakid]

HAHAHA,.....so it is possible!!!

Well I guess It would be worth my squeegees and swabs.....all of them, I'll even throw in the laynards!!

Awesome feature if it could be done. Assuming you could icorporate it into the RT valve, or something similar.

Go for it Tom, now you are on the right track. Versitility.

Kila

[MajorDamage]

I'd take the 400-600 PSI gun for the first two, I like a faster more accurate gun :D! But an adjustable pressure marker!? THAT WOULD RULE! I'll give you my spyder :D! OH! And Tom, could you hook my MB STINGER up to that Gun Dyno of yours!?

ENDO!

[FooTemps]

lol... Well, I was thinkin about the mag when I made my opinion...

[AGD]

Ok I guess I am going to have to get more specific here. You guys are discussing a good gun vs a bad gun, I am talking about two good guns.

The difference is between the Angel and the Impulse. The Angel shoots at a higher pressure than the Impulse. If you were going to choose between those two markers, based on what I told you above, which would you choose. Look at it another way, if I had a two magic wands, one that made your mag shoot like an Angel or one that made it like an Impulse which would you buy?

AGD

[kilaueakid]

I haven't used an impulse enough to make a good judgement call on which of the 2 I thought was better.

[Oregon_pb_]

use the wand and make me an impulse pressure mag like dealio.

I'll expect it next tues on my door step. thanks!

[RobAGD]

Well both guns have problems.

On my team alone I have guys that angels never break paint and guys that cant get a hopper outthe end of the tube with out a break.

Same deal with Impys. I have a guy with 2 1 breaks the other dosent.

At the shop I have seen both ends of the spectrum.

I am personally happy with my Mag. I can shoot what ever paint I want and have very few breaks. Then again I have some customer that cant get paint out the end of the tube on thier Emags but there classic is fine. It's most weird.

-Robert

[Failure]

Well I mean do both guns hit with the same force? It drives the ball the same distance in the long run so does lower pressure really benifit considering you need more air? Doesn't an angel finally shoot at 80-90 psi from the lpr? What does a shocker shoot at or impulse? If the bolt hits at the same force then the paint would be the leading factor in comparing ball breakage in guns. Im asking as a novice not as someone that actually knows what hes talking about.


Ahh just reread the original post describing the differences.

[Bad Dave]

What about barrel pressure? before I heard Tom say that the mag has one of the lowest barrel pressures, is that not what counts?

I do not think pressure shooting the ball matters as long as it is below 500psi lets say. What does matter is the bolt movement pressure, even with 90psi moving the angel bolt it can still chop(and does). With the superbolt can you try a different spring combination to reduce the bolts pressure on the ball?

From my experience quality of paint is what counts most of all, any brand can be both good and bad due to the stock practices of people who buy the paint. Need a sell by date and also some come ack against paint sellers.

For instance under the sale of goods act in the UK products have to be fit for the purpose intended and of merchantable quality. I would say poor quality paint is worth nothing then as it is neither fit for purpose or of sufficient quality...

However if you take it back to the guy you bought it off it will be, "its the paint I get given" or "must be your gun"

Most guns are quality paint on the other hand is not.

[[NA]WARLORD]

Even if ya could make a lower operating marker, what about all the upgrades for the Impulse such as delrin bolts, lightened hammers, pins etc.etc.etc. Have ya taken those into consideration, esp. with all the hybrid Impy's on the market i.e. Freak-Factory, Planet Eclipse, Demonic, have you checked out any of the steps they have taken to improve on the Impy's performance as well? I have a suggestion for new bolt, how about a Foamie Superbolt? wouldnt that be effective as say a whole new operating system? Geez, I just upgraded to R/T valve not too long ago, would said system be interchangable with it? Cost is a major influence on some of us as well as the young and newer players as well, we just cant afford all the latest ge-gaws and widgets, that make last months upgrades obsolete. I will always support AGD and their fine products as they have never (well 99% of time) failed me.....

[kenshinkandon]

I would like a gun that is more accurate and consistent compared to a gun that is low pressure and less consisent. reason being if I could take out a person with a average of 1 to 3 shots I would shoot less paint there by creating less of a chance for paint to break. Compared gun to a that I could shoot 8 to 10 shots on and not worry about breaking paint, my choice would be the more accurate one over the less consisent one.

But I do feel my opinion is the less popular one due to the overwhelming demand for more BPS both with markers and feeding systems look at how popular the warp feed is along with the HALO everyone is hyped about.

[Gecko]

a couple of my observations
Emag
i love this gun, if only she wasn't so picky about paint. Fast reliable and accurate. The only thing is this doesn't do me much good if i am squeegeing for half the game.
Shocker
Just something about the way these shoot. So gentle on paint, it will shoot almost any paint with little or no fuss. Very consistent with freak and maxflow but slow and a gas hog.
Excalibur
Not quite as easy as shocker on paint. Regualrly get +-2 fps with decent paint. Extreemly gas eficent and fairly fast. I had my first barrel break on case 8 and first chop on case 13. Gun itself is picky, must be fed new 9 volts almost every day of play and very sensitive to LPR and Firing pressure. At the moment this is my choice for my tourney marker, if only my emag wasn't so fussy on paint.

In general the market does seem to be moving to brittler paint. I am a fat man and used to catch alot of bounces, they have slowly becom more and more rare.
I think given the choice i would take a impulse over an angel. The gun is fast enough that i can make up for any diff in accuracy with a hail of paint instead of squeeging every other hopper. Overall give me the gun that does not break paint be it in the breech or in the barrel.
Gecko

[luke]

Personally I hate trade offs. To trade one problem for another doesn't really fix anything.

It sucks to be tucked in tight on the 50 yard line trying to get your gun cleaned out, (or worse, on the 30 ) but it also drives me nuts to miss that shoe or barrel sticking out from behind a bunker. 30 balls for 1 elimination, when it should only take 2 isn't really tolerable either.

I will probably take some criticism for this, but don't take it the wrong way. I'm a loyal Mag user. I believe in the technology and I like the direction it's going, I also understand with high performance you will always make some sacrifices. But, I never owned a squeegee until I purchased my first Mag. My first gun, which I used for one day and then sent it back to whoever it was that I ordered it from, was a Stingray. (didn't know any better, I purchased it before I played my first game of Paintball.) I then ordered my next gun which was a VM68. I hate to say it but this gun never, in the years that I used it, broke paint.(?) This gun was replaced immediately after our first
tournament, with Mini Mags. I've used them since. But along with the retirement of the VM68 I also retired the one shot one kill, no breaks "days". It was truly amazing how accurate this gun was, I don't have any ideas why, it just was.

I don't know if this has any relevance here or not, but there has to be a morel in there somewhere. It just seems silly to argue over which problem is better. :) I guess if I had something intelligent to say it would be along the same lines of what BlackVCG and Russ had to say..............

If anyone can fix "both" problems it will be Tom, we just have to bug him enough! I expect to see some type of X-ray eye in the next generation of Mags that calculates the chances of a ball break on every paintball that enters the breach, then ejects it if it has structural problems. ;)

[Butterfingers]

Foamie Bolt...

Start offering them standard. I honestly think the agressive acceleration of the stock automag bolt has somthing to do with breakage of extremely brittle paint.

Sure a foamie is a replacement item but they are dirt cheap and easy to replace.

I have had one of your AGD Longnose foamies for a year. The original foamie is still on there. I swear by this bolt my hardnoses are collecting dust in my closet.

hows this for statistics...

5 cases 4 breaks.

All of which were caused by nubbin problems. Meaning 4 out of the 4 times the ball broke becuase a nubbin broke.

[the JoKeR]

Personally, I would sacrifice some ROF for a system that would keep me playing longer (no ball breaks). Since I only play rec ball, even 7 or 8 BPS is more than enough for me. If the gun were adjustable, though, to allow a higher ROF based on input pressure (or some other manner), which in turn might mean more breaks, I think that would be simply a cost of doing business. You want speed, but would need to pay the price when using brittle paint. This could indeed be the best of both worlds. ROF based on your paint!

[beam]

I thought that the force of the actual bolt hitting the ball was negligible when compared to the force of the air mass hitting the ball.

In that case....foamie makes little difference. Oh, it may make some difference, but not as much as the pressure of the air hitting the ball.

I have to agree with those who have already said that they would prefer not to break paint.

Plus...aren't shockers like crazy quiet....a big plus for woods ballers.

[Ityl]

when paint breaks in the barrel the gun is very inaccurate.

[Webmaster]

People want guns that dont break paint. Accuracy is important - but nothing is accurate with broken paint.

People also WANT to shoot brittle paint. At least those on the competative level. They dont want a single ball to ever bounce on an oppenent.

I suppose my question with gun operation is - what exactly breaks brittle paint?

Is it the bolt contacting the ball?
Is it the balls contact with the barrel?
Is it the air contacting the ball?

When I talk to people and try to defend the automag design, they still sight how fast or how "hard" the bolt rushes forward. You have to admit, you can put your finger in the feed tube of a properly set up cocker and still keep it.

So assuming its the bolt causing the most breaks, I dont care what the pressure the gun shoots the ball at, I want the bolt to move slower or gentler so that paint is pinched, not chopped, and not smacked so hard.

If it is the barrel causing breaks, then I guess you would have to find the optimal pressure to run the gun at and not break paint.

If it is the air hitting the ball -then obviously you dont want and incorrect pressure running into the gun to cause that problem.

I still love my emag - I love the rope i can throw with it. But I am finding it harder and harder to defend its design against LP enthusiast who feel the automag bolt is hard on the paint. I simply dont have the knowledge to defend it - maybe you can enlighten us?

[Dave]

This is a difficult question, because lets take the worst situation from both parts...I'll use the DGA company someone suggested...lets say that the DGA X marker(Low pressure) came in contact with a Z marker (Higher pressure)
. The guy with the X marker sees the guy with the Z marker and starts shooting like crazy, missing every time. The guy with the Z marker sees balls flying around him, and realizes it's coming from that blasted X marker!!! He starts firing with his Z marker and about 2 ball into firing, he breaks paint, and now is breaking every ball due to the hard firing and the paint in the barrel. So you've got one guy firing all over the place, and one guy breaking paint. Probably the outcome will be the guy with the X marker running up closer and nailing the guy with the Z marker, since he can't get out of the breaks.

But lets take a look at some other points...by the time the X marker is done, he would have shot a ton of paint just to get a hit...a lot of paint means a lot of $$$...then again...the guy with Z marker is feeling the frustration of getting out cause his gun, or rather his PAINT, coundn't deliver. Unfortunately, as Tom said, most people tend to look at the gun as the prob, not the effects of brittle paint.

Right now, I guess brittle paint is the norm. I dunno about you, but I hate brittle paint!!! I want to find the toughest paint I can. I remember shooting Big Ball, and when i pulled the trigger, no ball came out...when i looked at the paint, I saw a big indent in it, meaning the bolt had smacked it, but it didn't break...I love it! I think a ball bouncing off someone is a lot better that a brittle ball breaking in the gun...besides your probably going to hit that person multiple times, not just with one ball(I guess I am thinking more along the rec. ball games) Now comes the problem...what happens if DGA makes it's X marker, with the ultra low pressure, and then the trend changes? What if hard balls are now the rage? Basically your stuck with a Low pressure X marker that doesn't really need low pressure, and shoots all over the place.

I think it is a BAD BAD idea to design something around a trend, because the trend ALWAYS changes. Now, if it was possible for DGA to make a XZ Marker, a combo, an adjustable marker, then that would be the best....if you get stuck with brittle field paint, adjust your XZ to handle it...then if you buy Big Ball for home use, and you do the drop test and find out it's 6 on the charts, then you can 'up' the pressure so your marker can gain more consistency, yet you know the balls can handle the extra pressure to deliver the increased consistency and accuracy. In this case, you are designing the marker around the variance of the balls, and not the balls themselves. That way, if you decide you want to start using a different kind of paint, more brittle, you don't have to worry about having a specific Low pressure back up marker that costs $600, you can just adjust the current marker you have. Or if the paint has a bad batch, and you ned to shoot a different paint, no prob. Adjust the marker as needed. Or if you are running low on gas, and using fairly tough balls, adjust so as to get the best efficiency. An adjustable marker would be excellent!

-dave

[Gecko]

garg i have a foamie bolt on my emag and it still breaks tons of paint.....
Gecko

[Bonx0007]

We are talking about inconsistancy. The inaccuracies of the ball will probably only be seen in the distance. We derive this theory based on the paint to barrel match. Rely on the freak and your shots should still be in the same tube, however using low pressure you might see some drop off a tad or something like that. I believe that if AGD made the X project low pressure you would have tourny players eating it up. The inaccuracy that Tom speaks about I believe will probably be undetectable to most players. Tom do you have the range of inaccuracy of low pressure compared to the range of inaccuracy compared to a mid pressuer gun?

[sylver]

I must say that I am in favour of not having paint break in my barrel. I'd rather put out a few more balls to correct my aim than have to take time out to clean my barrel.

[giant1515]

I personally have had no problems with my mag now, 2 cases (PMI advantage stuff)of paint and not a single break (I just got it in early december), barrel or breech. Solid accuracy and great speed.

As far as the future goes, everyone seems to be into low pressure operation. I don't like it as much because most of the lower pressure guns can turn into gas hogs quickly, shocker and matrix for example. air is of interest to me because not everywhere I play has refills... so when the air is out, i'm done. I've heard that the excaliburs are low pressure with high efficiency, but i've never seen it. That would be a good thing I think. you don't lose the air, but you get the aura of "low pressure operation".

If brittle paint is going to become more and more the norm for even rec play, i'd pay the extra for an adjustable system, shoot whatever paint there is and leave the swabs in the prep area. I'll be forever behind AGD now, so whatever you make, I will most likely try.

[Maghog]

We've had the most brittle paint of them all, and we put it to the test with all kinds of guns. In the end, none of them could shoot this paint.
Interestlingly, all breaks in my mag were barrel breaks...not one drop of paint on the bolt. The same was true with Shockers and low pressure cockers.
No one could shoot this paint, no matter how low the pressure of the system was.
I don't know if this says anything besides the fact that the paint was really bad, but I thought it might be worth mentioning.
If I had the choice, I'd be using a weapon that puts out the consistency and therefore accuracy. I have little ball breakage with my mags as it is, so low pressure won't do much for me there.
Adjustable pressure intake possibilities sound interesting, but unecessary.

[dawump]

With my mag the only time I've broken paint alot I've also noticed broken paint in my pods and even loader. THAT is brittle paint. I havn't had much problems with just barrel breaks.

The problem isn't that a marker breaks paint though it is that it then requires time and effort before being reliable again.. and maybe that is something to focus on. If the paint industry continues to do what it is doing then the marker industry will be playing a never ending game of catch-up. Looking at ALL the trends I see in paintball in five years we may therefore be looking at very low pressure markers and shooting much much more fragile paint to overcome accuracy IF THE GOAL IS TO NOT BREAK PAINT.

Well that sucks so maybe it's time to think out of the box.

As paint becomes more fragile perhaps it is time to change the thought from "how do we create a marker which doesn't break paint" to "how do we create a marker which can DEAL with broken paint".

This could either be done with use of special materials like many barrel manufacturers are focusing on, and / or a mechanism to activate a cleaning cycle on the marker, either using air or anything else.

Keith

[booyah]

I've shot mags, cockers, bushys, angels, RT's and blowbacks.

I've had paint so brittle it broke in my hopper from running to my opening bunker. didnt slam into anything, wasnt shooting, it just broke from a run.

I was shooting that paint all day in my mag and had no breaks in the barrel, only one chop (and that dang hopperful that went down the drain on me)

I love the mags the best todate of any of the guns I have ever shot, they never let me down.

but on the question of a gun that is more likely to break paint, but be more accurate, or a gun that is less likely to break paint but less accurate, I would opt for a gun that broke the least paint.

Give the option between a gun that is more likely to break paint, be more accurate, and CLEAN ITSELF easier (aka shoot clean) thats the way i would go.

Also Tom, if you could make a gun that could go low pressure/high pressure on the mag frame, i would say go for it. If you cant that is interchangeable with the mag valve, i would say backup, and consider a differnt design... the mag is a great design, but it does seem to have a few (VERY FEW) inherit design flaws... the bolt speed and the inability not to chop if the ball and bolt contact in the breach is a big one...


-Booyah

[Temo Vryce]

Marker A doesn't break paint or maybe 1 ball per case, but has grouping of about 12" at 50'

Marker B Breaks paint at a ratio of about 1 in 100 - 200 balls but has a grouping of about 4" at 50'


Personally I would go with Marker A because I don't carry a sqeegie. Now if you were using a barrel like the RamRod, and you were still able to get the same accuarcy then I would use the Marker B and just shoot through the breaks.

I realise that 12" at 50' might not be as inaccurate as you were think of but it gives me a base line to work from. I play speed ball for the most part so it's not likely that I'm going to pop out from my bunker take one shot and duck back in. I'm going to take a few shots to make sure that I hit my target. Paintballs aren't very accurate to begin with and they aren't going to be getting much more accurate than they all ready are. So Paint handling is going to become more and more important. Getting the paint handling undercontrol and then work on the accuracy.

It's kinda like what I tell all the new players that say that they want to learn to shoot fast. "Learn to shoot straight and hit your target first, speed will come with time."

I hope this help you some what Tom.

[Nitroduck]

Lets see.

I hate to dis-aggree with Tom, but just because a gun runs low pressure does not always mean it will consume more gas. It also doesn't *typically* mean it will break less balls.

Ball breakage can be said for 2 things and 2 things only.

1. Short Stroking
2. ROF/hopper matchup.

As we all know.....Short stroking has been generally solved by electronic microswitches and a computer to control the cycling...And not a human finger...

Bad problem is, with electros, they are typically faster and because of this, it can still suffer chopping/barrel breaks because most of the olden day hoppers couldnt keep up with the ROF of earlier Angels.

Think about these guns and which ones have been tagged for "chopping alot"

Matrix - I've heard so many people chop with these guns out of the box. When you add a trinity LPR...It gets better.

Main reason : stock BPS setting of 16bps.....Most people will not lower it, even when they do , it's minimum ROF is 12bps....Which is slightly faster than some hoppers out there. Add a very nice trigger which the matrix has, you can easily max the board out and cause massive chopping.

Angel LED - I can remember so many people claming Angels chop really bad with thiers...And as far as I can remember, the old LEDs were set at around 13bps stock. As for my personal Angel, I KNOW that the reason is the BPS setting. If I run my 12v non-X, non-turbo at 14bps or above and get on the trigger, I can guarentee a chop every 50 rounds. Set it at 11bps, and it goes down to about once every 1 case (unfortunately, I havent put enough paint through it to find out how often it will break with 11bps settings)

Emags - I've heard quite a few people also claim that these guns chop alot. We know they dont? Why? We respect our Emags, and dont use the full potential of the ROF and wont chop.....

How about guns that have been quoted as not chopping alot?

Autococker - most people say these guns dont chop/break balls that often.......However, I've noticed less people complaning about them not chopping only in the past year....No reason why. As far as I can remember, Cockers don't have a speed demon trigger like most Mags do....Most owners can only top off 5-7bps when they can....Could that be a reason as to why people dont chop? I know I respect my Autocockers ROF and only shoot 5-7bps..Because of that, I broke one ball in October....That was after about 5+ cases of paint.....Why'd it break a ball? I tried to shoot too fast.

Excaliburs - Goto a Excalibur owners group, see how often people chop. Most owners claim they can go 10 cases w/o a ball chop...Whys that? Is it the stock ROF setting of 10.5bps? The low pressure? It might be the low pressure, the Excaliburs can run rather low on cocking pressure....Because of that, I believe it's less harmfull on a ball (I've seen people stick thier fingers down the feed tube of a Excal and let me pull the trigger to my hearts content and they didnt even flinch. Can you do that with a Emag or Angel?)

Shockers - One of the first "dont break paint" guns....Smart Parts claimed it was because of the fact it was deep low pressure. I propose its simply because of the 11.25bps settings and the fact that the stock triggers are rather hard to get up to that ROF.

As for Impulses, Bm2ks, Tribals, Intimidators, ect. Most of these guns are 13-14bps all of which have anti chop eyes or anti-chop eye options. I've learned that even with a ACE , it still breaks paint, both possible in the breech (oval paint will register in the ACE and get caught) or it still can suffer barrel breaks.

Also, with the term LP = more accuracy

The only reason one gun has more accuracy (Im reffering to the STOCK models) is simply because the company designed the gun to have a nice regulator/barrel on it stock making it harder for a newer player to get a 'bad accuracy gun' ...Most people say Angels aren't accurate....Its simply because the stock reg needs to be broken in , the fact the gun has been packed with a huge ammount of lithium grease, and then finally the barrel hasn't been the greatest. My Angel shoots great and accurate....Despite of what others say.

As for this LP meaning lower consistancy. I'm reminded of my Autococker. My Autococker can run extremely thin shelled paint with ease (even though my gun isnt exactaly SLP.....350psi or so), I still can get 2k shots off a full 68/45 fill. I can use any paint made, from the crappiest brass eagle and competition, to hellfire, marbs and beyond and I still will get +/- 2fps at worst over the chrony.

Just remember Tom, ever think that when you put a gun into lower pressure, the regulation system really wasn't designed for it going low pressure? I can think of a few systems which can starve themselves at high ROFs and low pressure, and guns that wont starve themselsves at high ROFs and low pressures....

Also need to remember, gun prerfection can't make up for morons who believe other companies ads.....Even if they are real. Some people will just never figure out that you can't run a gun at 20bps when your using a stock VL-200 hopper..Even if the gun is 100psi.

[Royal Assassin]

Ok, in the 720 vid they showed us AGD is making paintballs for the law. They also showed us that mammoth corridor... might I remind you of the dents in the door at the end of that corridor? I know, those were plastic shells.

Now that AGD has perfected the marker side of it, why not work on the balls?

So my question is... Why not develop balls? Surely they haven't been "perfected".

just my $.02

Sorry for straying of the line of questioning.

Jason

[Paintchucker]

This is a very intriguing concept... Much like we have Freak Barrels that can be tuned for the size of the pb, it would be wonderful if we had a valve system, that in addition to being adjustable for velocity, was adjustable for the output pressure/volume.

Could this be done by simply adding one of those little thing like on angels and spyders called a volumizer? Put a smaller one on to get higher pressure/lesser volume/better consistancy for less brittle paint, and then swap out for a bigger one for lower pressure/higher volume when you had more brittle paint.

Another idea, which would take a total valve redesign would be to make the back of the MAG valve have inserts for two sizes of hex wrenches. The first would act like today and change the velocity and the second would change the volume/pressure.

As many of the high end paintball guns cost in excess of $1000 anyway, just having the option of a seperate valve system would be a good idea. Buy the gun in a medium pressure/medium volume like it is today, and then buy an add-on valve for $250 that was low pressure/high volume...

[dawump]

I don't think the issue is whether or not there are perfect paintballs it's whether or not the field or tournament you show up at uses them.

If tournaments were Bring your own paint then we'd bring paint that matches the mag.

Keith

[hitech]

It depends (doesn't it always?) on how much less accurate verses how many more breaks. If I could decrease the shot group by four inches and increase the breaks by 1 in 1000, then great. If the shot group decreases by 2 inches and the breaks increase by 1 in 500, then probably not. If the shot group decreases by 1 inch and breaks increase by 1 in 250, then absolutely not.

In general I want the most accurate gun I can get that only breaks 1 in 1000 balls or so. As a side note, to me, left to right accuracy is more important that top to bottom accuracy.

[apache]

Good post Nitroduck, I can see experience talking there.

It seems that there's 2 trends going on here: part of the people want a gun that shoots very accurately at long ranges with good air efficiency but they don't mind whether the ball breaks on target and others want a marker that shoots fast, not very accurately but the ball MUST break on target, not in gun. If you want to please both of them, you have to make 2 guns, a rec-game and a tournament gun ;)

If we go in the fantasy gun department, I'd like to have a gun that would never break paint inside, could shoot at least 800 balls with my 3000 psi 68 ci Max-Flow and the speed would stay in 285-295 fps area (no chrono penalties!!). I play tournament ball at the front so I don't shoot farther than maybe 30 meters in a 5 man game. And I'd like to have a gun that's different from the other people's guns... either by only looks or whole another brand ;)

[dorksquad]

in my mind i can make anything (weather i have the funding or not is a whole nother story all together)
anyway i think that it would be fairly easy to make a valve system like the old level 5,or 6 mags like in the video where the power tube can be disconected and then you could chance the air chamber size (freak barrell style) by replacing the chamber and reattaching the pt assy and reg, then you could use a larger chamber to fire at low pressure and a nsmaller one to fire at higher pressure, sure this may sound over kill but it would probly make people happy and if the brittle paint monster ever dyes we can go back to our high pressure guns. hell i might just make one if i could get my hands on some old valves like that or some cad drawlings of mags.

[apache]

If you want variable air chamber, move the regulator from the back to the vert mount (as in MANY guns now) and use a screw to change the chamber volume.

As a sidenote separating the a/c and the reg would be good because you could balance the gun better and change the reg to an aftermarket one if you'd think it made difference, for example an LP Max-Flo.

(edit: I hope you can understand my English ;) Sometimes I feel like I'm writing in English words but using Finnish word order ;) )

[Miscue]

I want a gun with a magic switch on it. When my paint is working good, have it set to high efficiency. When my paint is sucking, set it to handle brittle paint. This way I'm not stuck with either situation.

[Butterfingers]

Originally posted by beam
I thought that the force of the actual bolt hitting the ball was negligible when compared to the force of the air mass hitting the ball.

In that case....foamie makes little difference. Oh, it may make some difference, but not as much as the pressure of the air hitting the ball.

I have to agree with those who have already said that they would prefer not to break paint.

Plus...aren't shockers like crazy quiet....a big plus for woods ballers.


In practice my foamie is great! I hate to throw a wrench (or spanner hehe I love brits! :) ) in the mix but the foamie works wonders for me at least.

Try shooting RPS slam in sub 30 degree weather and having NO breaks...

I did it today...

Foam is amazing...

[Oregon_pb_]

some people are now thinking low pressure guns aren't accurate...

My Shocker runs at 160psi in, it shoots darts. With having a dome trigger i can get prol 5-7 balls per second out the barrel. Very accurate gun since i don't ever break paint.

My Custom cockers runs at 360 in, it shoots darts as well. A MINOR amount but more accurate than my shocker at longe range. I can prol get around 7-9 bps out with the Hinge.

My emag on warp is extremly accurate, single shooting it i have put paintballs through holes no bigger than the paintball them selves at longe range. But when you pull strings of 10-12 bps the air/paint inside take control and control the flight of the ball, so it seems like there spreading out to a larger diameter at the end game.

But overall i think my shocker is one of the more accurate guns on the market. It doesn't break paint. (No need to carry a sqeeg my marker, it won't break).

So short of DGA making their own less brittle paintballs i'd like to see a LP gun.

[Dubstar112]

As for adjustability of a operating pressure: Make inserts for a valve like a freak. These inserts would go into the chamber dialating the opening to lower pressure, or making the chamber area smaller for increased consistency.. get my drift..(Im sure that there would be alot more to making this happen too..)

[Dubstar112]

Also, I think it would be nice to use the adjustability for cold weather when all guns have hard times.

[Nitroduck]

Apache , i don't mean to burst your bubble but.........

Adding a " lp " chamber or " voumizer" just changes how the gun looks , not preformance. The pressure in the valve is the exact same. I personally do own a volumizer , just for looks ( dye ). If a LP chamber does ANYTHING , its just gonna increase the ammount of air waiting to be shot and COULD reduce shootdown under rapid fire conditions. But on the other end.........the angel does have something that can sorta control valve pressure , its called dwell , it controls how long the hammer strikes valve , longer dwell means it hits the valve longer , puts more volume in barrel , and you can reduce pressure. Becasue of this , it effects ball brekage quite a bit ( if you turn valve dwell on a angel up , you'll break less paint than a shocker , and have about the same ammount of shots per tank as a shocker :) While if you turn it down , the gun becomes less tolerable to paint , but yelds more shots per tank.

[Dragoon]

I'd like to be able to shoot brittle paint.

I don't want paint in my barrel for any reason (loss of accuracy).

But I used to shoot an Angel and although I almost never broke paint I had a hard time hitting what I was aiming at. However this may just be due Angel, but because of how the Angel made me play. I shot more, aimed less, and could not site down the barrel easily.

It would be great to see a low pressure mag valve. Especially if I can interchange it with my current valves. That way I could have both, use one for brittle paint, the other for harder paint, and figure out which one I like better.

I would be willing to pay the same as for the current Retro valves.

Hope this helps AGD.

Douglas

[justinellery]

Adjustable pressure, I thought of that a long time ago and thought it would make tons of money. Well, I would give my Tippman, RT Pro, Spyder and my left.......well I'd give those guns anyway. As far as whether I'd rather have the low or high pressure, that would depend on the paint trends. Right now they seem to be getting more brittle but that could change. Adjustable pressure would be great. I might lose some cycle time making where I can't shoot as fast; but, I don't know the benefit of having a gun capable of shooting 26 balls per second when a loader can only keep up with 15 or so. Before you warp feeders go off about the number 15, just remember that warp is still fed by a loader, and that is 15 or so. anyways, sounds good so far.

[Temo Vryce]

Originally posted by Dragoon
I'd like to be able to shoot brittle paint.

I don't want paint in my barrel for any reason (loss of accuracy).

But I used to shoot an Angel and although I almost never broke paint I had a hard time hitting what I was aiming at. However this may just be due Angel, but because of how the Angel made me play. I shot more, aimed less, and could not site down the barrel easily.

It would be great to see a low pressure mag valve. Especially if I can interchange it with my current valves. That way I could have both, use one for brittle paint, the other for harder paint, and figure out which one I like better.

I would be willing to pay the same as for the current Retro valves.

Hope this helps AGD.

Douglas

Doug, I don't want you getting any better at aiming. It's hard enough playing against you in GTPL. :D If it helps you're not as bad a shot as you think you are. Target practice and snap shooting is one thing, but playing against you is something really different.

[Gunga]

Originally posted by Royal Assassin
Ok, in the 720 vid they showed us AGD is making paintballs for the law. They also showed us that mammoth corridor... might I remind you of the dents in the door at the end of that corridor? I know, those were plastic shells.

Now that AGD has perfected the marker side of it, why not work on the balls?

So my question is... Why not develop balls? Surely they haven't been "perfected".

AGD does make 'Perfect Circle' paintballs which are made of plastic and don't have the large seam that your standard paintballs have. If I remember right, they found that having a paintball that is perfectly round didn't make much of a difference in accuracy or range.

As for the military rounds...well, it'd be nice, but there are millions of paintball guns out there that use one type of ammo, the .68 cal paintball. I'm not sure what the diameter of the military rounds are in comparison to your standard paintball, but they are shaped differently, so I assume that you wouldn't be able to just put them in your Mag/Cocker/Angel/etc. and fire away. Additionally, you wouldn't be able to use your current feed system (Revvy, Halo, Warp, etc) due to the shape of the military round. Not to mention that they'd be daaaaaaaaamn expensive to buy.

As you can see, it'd be VERY hard to have the industry and consumers switch to a new ammo standard. It's kind of like companies trying to replace the standard 3.5" floppy drive that comes with every computer. Iomega tried it with the Zip, Sony's tried it, Compaq's tried it...to no avail. The floppy is just too entrenched as a standard. I'd guess AGD would run into the same problem with trying to get all of paintball to switch to their military style paintball from the .68 caliber rounds we use today, despite the obvious advantages that the military round has.

[ShinyGuy]

My medium pressure marker shoots +-2fps at the crono. My friends ultra low pressure marker is not nearly as consistent. Because of this I can crono higher and have a longer range. It doesn't matter that he can shoot more brittle paint since he can't shoot it as far as I can. Granted, I have to hit something hard at maximum range to get a break but if I'm shooting at more than a mask, hopper or the occasional shoe I'll probably have plenty of other shots at that target.

[Paintchucker]

kinda off topic, but most of my friends and co-workers use CD-RW instead of floppies now. It did take a decade though... Hmmmm... Does that mean in 10 years that Emag will be the price of RT Pros or Minimags? :)

[M-a-s-sDriver]

Except for one instance that I can remember, I don't recall ever breaking a ball when I was just posted and shooting for accuracy,or single/double tap snap shooting. Every shot (past 5 years or so) that I remember breaking was either rapid firing, or shooting on the run. Although I sometimes like to just play a game and unload 1200 rounds of paint, I am a front type guy, and I like to set up my shots.
For instance, I have the same amount of success playing with my phantom as I do with my Mag or Angel, yet they are all equally accurate guns. I regulate all of them with a Palmer Stabilizer, and except for the Angel, I know exactly where to aim my shot. The only reason I have less luck with the Angel is because I have a hard time picking a place to aim on it with the vert feed and body shape, so I usually have to "walk" my rounds into where I am shooting.
So for me, I want accuracy. As odd as it sounds, I have learned to not break paint. But when I do, a quick swipe with a battle swab and Bobs-yer-uncle.
Here is something for you guys to throw around: Besides my Phantoms (I have had three), which have a total of about 2 breaks, while auto-triggering, my Mag is the most un-paint-breaking gun I have ever had. Now I know ya'll hate the ANS bolt, but it is what I use. I think the concave shape of the nose has to help to some extent to help the impact of the bolt on the ball. Although I have never bought into the venturi thing, I think the ANS has better ball break advantages than the stock set of bolts. Has AGD ever tested the stock bolts against ANS on this one variable?
On a side note, I was not going to buy another gun of any type for probably another 5 years. But when I saw the Extreme, warped, with the sight window completely open over the top of the gun, I decided I would pick one up this year.
I personnaly think that one advantage is worth so much, and is truly revolutionary. I think that is something that is sorely overlooked by the Vert feed guys.

Brent Jackson, PFB.

[Riot[Z-Grip]]

To start my response off, I would like to detail the position I am coming from. As we can see from previous posts, different people have different need from a paintball marker. Knowledge of my background as a paintballer should be given before my decision so that the decision can be taken correctly. (And AGD or whatever company could use this information in marketing whatever product comes from this discussion.)

I first played 2 1/2 years ago and have become seriously active in the sport during the last year. I am 16 years old and I make approximately $120 a week. Paintball is not my only expense. I currently play front positions on a Novice level team that is entering our first tournament series this year. My main concern of a marker is "How does it perform for a front player?". I do occasionally play mid-back and a concern that comes in to a close second is "Can I shoot lots of paint fast if I need to?". I don't like to get tagged out, so I spend more time behind my bunker than I probably should. I'm fast and smallish 5'8" 130lbs, I can get close to my opponent. I'll carry a squeegee if I need to, but I'd prefer not to.

Desired Marker Qualities

Compactness
ROF
Accuracy (Every ball needs to count-less paint used=less money spent)
Minimum number of ball breaks (same reason as above)


So I'll take the Medium Pressure marker. I can deal with a few ball breaks if it means that I'm accurate, but I need to break as few as possible to conserve paint. I need it to be compact so I can play the small bunkers. I don't want to spend a lot of money at this time. I would rather be able to add affordable mods to my gun to improve it's performance than to have to shell out cash for a whole new marker at this time (no matter what the benefits).

This said, I love my mag. As you can see it's the perfect gun for me:

Affordable
Upgrades give a lot of bang for the buck
Great performance overall!

But then again, for some reason in about 3-4 cases, I've only chopped twice and broken down the barrel 0 times (that weren't my fault shooting the barrel plug). If you can throw a slew of upgrades at me for decent prices that will make my gun better and that I can buy over a period of time when I have the money, I will shower you with praise. Right now I don't need the low pressure. If for some reason I start breaking 1/200 or 1/100 balls down the barrel, I will probably change my tune.

Sorry if this got completely off topic, but as usually, my writing ran away with me. Hopefully some of this will be useful.

-Riot

Edit: Don't admit to wiping, even for background information purposes, it just brings ridicule.

[lonsch]

like most people have said some angels/impulses break paint some dont. you just cant say angel /impulses break more paint or shoot better than the other one.

also i dont know about you guys but i think a gun with broken paint is not as accurit as a gun that does not break paint :)

on a side note Tom i would LOVE to see some of the info from the gun dino of the other guns. even if i needed to drive to the shop.....

[M-a-s-sDriver]

You still should not wipe, even in a rec game.


Unless it was you your best friend who shot you, and he was ALL THE WAY on the other hill, shooting his Phantom (stock class for the day so we could both get by on 200 rounds between us because we were super stinken' cheapo that weekend) and he just see's you and lets one go, and 20 seconds later it finally hits the ground in front of you, then bounces up and breaks on your leg. Obviously there was no skill used in the shot, it was pure stanky luck, and he normally can't hit a cow's butt with a tennis racket. In this case, It is perfectly acceptable to just wipe his little marky-poo right off and continue doing whatever it was you were doing before you were so rudely interupted. Like sneek around later and shoot his milky-white butt when he is facing the other direction.
HUH, MAUI PFB...???

Brent Jackson, PFB.

[Vegeta]

Wrap your minds around this:
You have a gun with a solenoid driven valve (electricity passes through a coil, magnetically pushing a rod foreward. This rod would be your poppet for the valve.) Now.. sice it is elcetronically controlled, the tiem the valve stays open can be tuned. I say putting a small variable resistor on the board of the gun that would control, in milliseconds, how tong the valve would stay open. Or a dip switch of soemthing. Now, adjusting the valve to stay open longer, and adjutsing the reg to be at a lower pressure, would operate at a low pressure, yet still get the ball up to 280 fps. Now, adjusting the valve to be open a shorter time, and hte reg to use a higher pressure, whould result in a medium pressure op gun. This would use higher pressure, yet shorter bursts of air, and still coem out (wth all fine tuning) to 280 fps.

[laysomepaint]

well, ever since i put a different barrel on my spyder and got a revvy, ive NEVER broke a ball in 6+ cases. But then again, my spyder will NEVER outshoot my revvy without an electro frame, most breaks come because the hopper cant keep up, even at 11 bps, an old revvy eventually wont be fast enough, and at 13, i could see a turborev or Xrev doing it...in fact, warpig did a test on it.


Ive shot a friends excalibur, and done many "tests" with it. The reason it wont chop, is, after its broken in a bit, it cocks at 60psi. That bolt doesnt hurt at all, even at the full 13 bps(theres a cable out that lets you speed it up). It also is EXTREMELY consistent. +/-4 during the winter, and before it got cold, +/-2. Extremely Efficient. he has a 45/4500 and gets alot of shots...dont know an exact number, but through 1 case he filled his tank once little more then halfway through the case. Its biggest problem is that its big. Its not really heavy, but it has size. It also has NO upgrades, and NO companies are interested in putting aftermarket parts out for it, so there arent many cosmetic option avalible...actually none, if you dont mill/annodize it.

I think that *IF* AGD was to make a new gun, they should use the existing design, but make it 2 tube, and put a ram on bottom to move the bolt(or just a tiny ram like on the cocker...even though it has a higher pressure to move it...its the same amount of force...so, it feels the same to the paint). That will help solve chopping problems(pinch instead in some cases). Lower the operating pressure a bit, maybe 200psi or so, and even make it closed bolt. Use a trigger much like the e-mag's(magnets=good) and make sure the ROF is 13bps, though im thinking it would be able to hit 16+ safely. And see how efficient you can get it. Hmm...you could probably even put in a selector switch for closed or open bolt...just degas the marker, move the bolt where it needs to be, and make sure you have the gun's circuit board set accordingly. A hybrid mode like the e-mag's would be nice, but im not sure how it would work. and of course, if it looks great, thats a plus.

Add a q/d bolt, and some crazy burst modes(w/ tournament lockout of course) and you have the "perfect" marker for the company and player, even if it gives into the hype a little bit.

I think i went a bit too far....but started dreaming...anyway, i just described the gun i would attempt to make if i had the resources, and i wasnt using someones patent, and as long as the marker wont chop "average"(brittle) paint, then get it as consitent as you can.

[Nitroduck]

Vegeta, they already have a gun out with a variable valve setting.....Its called the Angel LCD and LED.

You can change it from 10-18ms at the touch of a button....Or the turn of a knob on a LED.

Hate to say it, but this idea has already been done. Why do you think Tom posted pictures of a Angel LCD on the gun dyno? I bet more than anything he was testing different dwell settings and noticing the higher dwell got less gas efficency.