Differences in PneuMags

[Zarak]

Hello AO... It's been a long while since I've posted here and I'm just starting to get back into PB. I've dusted off my Mag oiled her up and she's good to go. :shooting:

A couple of friends of mine was showing me their upgraded pneumatic mags... Pneumags they called it. both are very nice. But during my search here on AO, I see that Shingo removed the links he had on this subject. So I need some info.

With my two friends pneumags, I see a difference in performance. What would cause this? Their setup:

Mag #1 = Classic Valve, Level 7 Bolt, RT On/Off (with two lvl10 shims), PMI Pure Energy 68/45, Rev 12v
Mag #2 = Classic Valve, Level 10 Bolt, RT On/Off (with 2 shims) and Crossfire 68/45, Rev 12v

Mag #1 shoots better then Mag #2. Mag #1 can walk the trigger very well. Mag#2 chuffs if you try to walk the trigger too fast but will work fine if you slow down your trigger pull.

My questions are, does the Level 10 Bolt have a problem with high ROF. How can Mag#2 be fixed? Has anyone else installed a pneumatics in Classic Valve Mag with a lvl 10 bolt and had good results? Is there anyone I can directly PM for answers (Shingo said he couldn't help)? Any suggestions would be nice. Thanks.

[BigEvil]

Put the lvl10 on mag#1 and see. It may just be either the different spring or the set ups may be different some how on the p-frames.

[Zarak]

We're going to try to put the Level 7 Bolt in Mag#2 instead (less work tuning) and see if Mag#2 works better with it.

I thought that the pneumag upgrade was suppose to virtually get rid of short stroking... is there a reason why a pneumag would need a Level 10 bolt? or can it go without one?

[olinar]

it probably just needs some tuning.

[Pneumagger]

Post pics of the two setups internally, are they identical internally?
Are the LPR pressures the same?

The level 10 mag should have the lighter trigger pull, all other things being equal. I've never had to shim up the rt on/offs in the classic valves. One might alse be an emag on/off valve.

/by the way... on line 4 of the original post the word friends should be friends' :p
//welcome back

[CaliMagFan]

We're going to try to put the Level 7 Bolt in Mag#2 instead (less work tuning) and see if Mag#2 works better with it.

I thought that the pneumag upgrade was suppose to virtually get rid of short stroking... is there a reason why a pneumag would need a Level 10 bolt? or can it go without one?


lvl 10 is used to prevent chops, not short strokes... if you out shoot your hopper, you run the risk of chopping.... what i rip on mine i get a chuff from time to time. I am shooting on an old 9volt revvy most of the time tho.
-kr

[Smoothice]

Zarak
I would be interested to find out what happens when you swith the level 10 with the level 7.

I just completed my pneumag with a lot of help from a friend.

His is a classic valved micromag with an RT on/off and level 10

Mine is a classic valved automag with an RT on/off and level 7

Mine is much more walkable then his.

We believe this is due to the higher pressure required for the level 10.

Keep us posted on your results.

[longi]

I also found that if the rod wasn't rounded off enough it was very difficult to walk, and would cough and splutter before it fired 3-4 balls in quick succsession then coughing and spluttering again. I also found that using the short LX10 spring gave a higher rate of fire.

[FARMER00]

does one have a qev?
it my not be able to get rid of the air quick enough on mag 2

[wjr]

Post pics of the two setups internally, are they identical internally?
Are the LPR pressures the same?

The level 10 mag should have the lighter trigger pull, all other things being equal. I've never had to shim up the rt on/offs in the classic valves. One might alse be an emag on/off valve.

/by the way... on line 4 of the original post the word friends should be friends' :p
//welcome back


It wouldn't be an emag on-off I don't think. The pin is too short for it to work in a classic valve.

I find this to be a fascinating phenomenon. I'm eager to hear why it's happening.

[FARMER00]

I find this to be a fascinating phenomenon. I'm eager to hear why it's happening.

maybe one is just a lemon lol, like cars 2 people could buy the same care exact same day exact same features and stuff and one will still go about 50 000 miles more

[Zarak]

Sorry for not getting back on this issue. It's hard to find time to test the mags at the same time.

It appears that Mag#2 has a problem with the on/off. When using the RT On/Off the classic valve does not recharge the chamber behind the bolt fast enough. So what happens is when you first fire, the mag will shoot fine, but if you pull the trigger right after the first shot, you'll get a chuff... wait a second, and the chamber fills up and you can fire just fine.

So if you try to walk (7+ bps) the trigger you get... BANG chuff chuff chuff chuff....

Slow down the trigger walk (about 4 bps) you get... BANG chuff chuff BANG chuff chuff Bang Chuff

If you pull the trigger for quick single shots (about 2 bps) ... bang chuff bang bang (shot down) chuff

If you do single shots with long gaps... bang.... bang... bang... bang


So we removed the RT On/Off and put back the classic on/off... the trigger pull increased by alot. we had to increase the LPR output to handle the classic on/off force. But the results were surprising. THe chamber filled as fast as we can pull the trigger. You can't walk the trigger, but you can still fire the mag really fast. 5+ bps BANG BANG BANG! :shooting:

So what's the deal? I thought the RT On/Off was suppose to have a fast recharge rate with a light trigger pull. What gives? any advise would be great. thanks

[Smoothice]

do a search for posts by the electrician.

look for a post about rt on/off mods for a classic valve.

there are a few mods you can do to the on/off to get a faster recharge rate.

[Zarak]

do a search for posts by the electrician.

look for a post about rt on/off mods for a classic valve.

there are a few mods you can do to the on/off to get a faster recharge rate.

Yup... found it. Did the mod before doing the update (sorry I should have mentioned that). The problem still remains after the RT On/Off modification was done.

Anyone else see this problem?

or

Anyone have other suggestions?

[Spider-TW]

You might look at the threads on shims in the RT on/off and shorter on/off pins. I think either way will result in the top of the pin being lower in the on/off during recharge for better flow, as well as being open for a longer time during the cycle.

[Zarak]

You might look at the threads on shims in the RT on/off and shorter on/off pins. I think either way will result in the top of the pin being lower in the on/off during recharge for better flow, as well as being open for a longer time during the cycle.

Spider-TW... you may be on the right path to solving this problem.

We noticed that when we de-gas the mag the RT on/off pin pushes itself up into the body of the valve, pretty much positioning the pin above the quad oring... Our idea is that the pin is pushed so far past the quad oring that the air takes longer to push the pin back out = longer recharge time = chuffing... so the length on the pin might be the culprit.

We've shorten the RT pin between 0.7305" to 0.7300" (measured with a calibrated Mitutoyo Absolute Digimatic Digital Caliper) and we added two Lvl 10 shim. This moves the seal on the on/off lower to about 0.04" which is equal to 8 ULT shims. We're hoping to see some improvements... if not then we're removing 0.001" from the pin and retest. All we need now is air to test. I'll keep you all posted.

Anyone else have any ideas?

[Spider-TW]

I was looking at an MSV-2 the other day and I can only remember seeing one exhaust hole. If you mount the MSV with the hole facing the frame support, it would have to screw you up some if you don't have a qev.