A Different Hot of the Mill Emag Extreme [Archive]

headcase

01-05-2002, 11:10 PM

Again different...........

Is this the chop as much metal off the body as possible version?

The major problem I have with this one again deals with the removeable breach. On the back half of the body the transition from the body to the breach is too sudden, I would like to see a more gradual transition.

From the pics, it almost looks like the bottom of the body is narrower than the frame, is it?

Also this isn't a complete extreme body, where is the sear pin? Any ideas how to work it in?
edit: nevermind I'm crazy, the sear pin is on the otherside of the body.

Basicly I like the front 1/2, and with a more gradual transition, I think I would like the back as well.

Bonx0007

01-05-2002, 11:13 PM

Tremendous improvment. I love the circular battery pack way better than the regular. That looks like one crazy gun. I would like to see it with the valve and everything put together. Good job AGD.:)

thecavemankevin

01-05-2002, 11:16 PM

i agree with headcase
more fluid transition.

but much better.
Perhaps you guys could consult the trigger-nomics guy and receive some of his nightmarish influence.

X-Plosive

01-05-2002, 11:16 PM

I'm not crazy about the back of the gun but it is an improvement. The module looks a bit out of place.

magman007

01-05-2002, 11:25 PM

is that the first body just altered?

IceCool32

01-05-2002, 11:27 PM

*Last Pic* Ohhhhhhhh, Yellow......I want. too bad it's not that color :(. But either way, fantastic.....It looks like a Transformer character wings or something.:D

SoupRman

01-05-2002, 11:29 PM

very, very niceeeeeeeeeeeeeee......... i like it best in the 3rd pic as TK stated you can see the bodoy lines better. im sure this thing would look even more beatiful in pewter or in a blue anno. maybe even a nickle plating? i know there not final, but what can one imagine.

deweasel697

01-05-2002, 11:30 PM

That is sweet, could we see a shot with a valve in it?

AGD

01-05-2002, 11:38 PM

with the valve

Potatoboy

01-05-2002, 11:39 PM

I like it a lot!
That whole show of all of the valve idea looks very, very familiar.... ;)

ThePatriot

01-05-2002, 11:43 PM

OHHHHH....with the valve it looks SO much better, i was thinking before isnt that gonna rip up your shoulder, but with the valve i like it alot more, and definetely an improvement over the previous one

Failure

01-05-2002, 11:45 PM

I was very impressed with the fantasy EMag that had the lions head at the front. An ovular battery pack would be better though in my opinion. What I don't like is the shape of the valve cut out or the trigger. Blade trigger should be used. I don't know if you saw it but for the angel it would be the cobra stick trigger or for the cocker the hinge trigger. I love those triggers. Instead of making the body as light, maybe make a lighter valve if possible. Is there a plastic that is as durable and strong as steel. Maybe use aluminum. Or maybe ertalyte valve with a steel sleeve on the outside?

Paintchucker

01-05-2002, 11:49 PM

I like it very much. Glad you told us not to get excited cause I sure like the round battery too... :)

Hmmmmmm... If I send you a check for $1350 will you let me help you beta test one? LOL...

toymyster

01-05-2002, 11:54 PM

That is nice!!! I do like the blade trigger!!! Any chance of that trigger finding it's way to the AGD store????

M-a-s-sDriver

01-06-2002, 12:09 AM

That is very nice and original.
What would you think of this: Keep the general milling of this body, but put a twist to it, as if you grabbed those two protrusions in the back with your hand and turned them 30 deg. left or right. Is that possible?
Would you guys like a body that has left-right asymetry to it?
I was one of the few who liked the "artsy" milling of John's first gun, and to me it had a very Frank Lloyd Wright architectural feel to it. That made me think of a house he did in the 1920's that was made of cast block with a very unusual asymetrical design cast into the blocks.
Also, have you thought of the Gieger design at all, and maybe an Art-deco aerostream type gun?
Great work on both guns.
Just keep on chopping bodies up till your heart's content.
Brent Jackson, PFB.

headcase

01-06-2002, 12:12 AM

Ok, why is it everyone loves, what I think is merely OK? I have a lot more issues with this one, than the last. To me, the 1st looked like you had good ideas, while this one looks like a lot of deep cuts, just to make them.

I think the best way to "fix" this style is to mirror the milling infront of the breach to the back of the breach and then go into what you already have. I would also think about leaving the material that is right above the gripframe so that it still matches up with the breach along that line. I think those things would clean it up alot, and not make it look like a bunch of random cuts(at least in my eyes, but what do I know everyone else likes it.) And while it would put a little weight back on the marker, it would all be in the middle over the gripframe where it makes the least difference.

Bonx0007

01-06-2002, 12:18 AM

Tom you might want to have the milling of the gun flow to the breech modual a little more. It sticks out too much. There should be a seamless transition there. It looks great and I see a lot of progress.BTW thanks for the the pic with the valve in. It helps us visualize the gun .

headcase

01-06-2002, 12:19 AM

Originally posted by M-a-s-sDriver
.
What would you think of this: Keep the general milling of this body, but put a twist to it, as if you grabbed those two protrusions in the back with your hand and turned them 30 deg. left or right. Is that possible?

I like this idea, there is no reason it couldn't be done, not that I can see at least. The original extreme bodies had the valve completely enclosed, so the matterial is there to do it. The only think with this it to make sure the twist leaves the "EMAG" on the valve exposed.

Quick question, is the extreme getting it's own valve? You have 68's, mini's, RT's, E's, so is there going to be a EX?

Bonx0007

01-06-2002, 12:27 AM

I agree with headcase in the fact that the body should probably flow a little better to the grip frame too. The pieces right now look a little miss matched. If it flowed a tad bit more to make it look like one uniform gun instead of a bunch of pieces of guns it might look a bit nicer. Just some constructive criticism.

zads27

01-06-2002, 12:32 AM

I think that this is an improvement over the last X-treme milling attempt, and is closer to what players would like, but still needs work.

Round battery pack doesn't look all that appealing to me, ever.. I think there is a good following out there just to keep the squarish battery pack, possibly mill it a bit, and possibly add rubber grips onto it.

The shape looks to be desiring to be more sleek and streamlined. In this case, I think the front could be slightly more so, specifically around the area where the battery meets its contacts in the body.

I think you were onto something in the area directly to the rear of the vert feed module area, in the style of it, but should continue doing complimentary milling to the rear of that, rather than making the rest all smooth. Or, take the stepped part out, and make that section smoothened too. (though this will keep the milled extreme from having too many distinguishing parts vs. the regular extreme.

Blade trigger looks okay, perhaps try milling the rear part of the trigger to keep it from looking so 'fat'? Maybe spiked ridges, beveled rear edges, slots/holes drilled into the trigger, a wavy looking rear side.. whatever. I know you need the magnet in the middle of the trigger, but I'm sure you can figure out how to blend this into the rear of the trigger milling design.

Smoothen out the transition from the hall effect sensor area to the finger rest area?

I think the valve is also too exposed, and in a fashion which doesn't really look right.

kilaueakid

01-06-2002, 01:40 AM

I like this one much more than the 1st. I definately like the direction you are going with. I think the "flared up" rear end looks sexy. Could the breech be milled more or are you leaving it alone for a reason? Seems to me there is some meet that could come off that as well.

Project is lookin ggreat though guys. Keep up the good work. I look forward to seeing more designs as you come up with them.

kila

Maghog

01-06-2002, 02:15 AM

I read all the comments about the first one and I'm surprised that this one has more favorable reviews.
I loved the finely etched patterns all over the first one, this model seems to be displaying more of an attempt to shave the body down to as little as possible.
I like the concept of making the gun lighter, but there's a lack of continuity in this design that leads one to think that this milling was done if only to reduce the weight of the receiver.
The other design was more complete in my opinion, this one looks like it's not done yet.
One suggestion, make two large finger grooves on the grip frame instead of three little ones...I've done both and have to say that two is much more comfortable.
The trigger design is decent, do yourselves a favor and shave the front edges of the trigger face down to nice rounded shapes. Your fingers will love you for it.

Manike-we discussed roughing out an extreem body with excess amounts of aluminum specifically for carving. Any chance you mentioned that to John yet?

Snooky

01-06-2002, 02:20 AM

A great improvement over the caveman/xman model as i like to call it. I really like how the front end of the gun looks and the back isn't all to bad either but i would like to see some other examples before you go with the back end. I like the tubeular grip however if it had finger grooves or a cover much like the RT it would probally feel better and look better. I think your onto something though and once again much better improvement over the first. What i want most is too see the lions on the gun somewhere becuase i love those lions becuase its like a coat of arms. Show me the lions!

Bad Dave

01-06-2002, 04:55 AM

Once annodised I think these designs will look a lot better.

AT this stage I guess these designs just indicate a rough direction for the design to follow which will be improved upon over time, as such I feel this is a good design to follow but cover up a little more of the valve and twist it like someone else suggested.

Manuel_FZR

01-06-2002, 05:07 AM

YES YES YES!!!
This one looks much much much better than the first! Your on the right way!
The first aim should be to mill sa much as possible away ;) No pictures/grafics/... ! Good work! Keep it minimalistic! The less is often more!

I think the "normal" battery pack looks better, but I never had one in my hands ... so if the round is better to hold, keep the round.

shartley

01-06-2002, 05:53 AM

Well, I must concur with the folks that say it is not fluid enough. It is better than the first one, but again, I would not even pick this one up off the shelf. The back end is ugly beyond words.

It does remind me of AO though… LOL How so? Extreme. It went from one extreme to the next…

I was HOPING that you would take the first one, and since you said it was sculpted, just smooth out all the etching. You know, keep the basic shape you were trying to get, just refine it and smooth it out. This one does go for the minimalist look, but looks like you did it in a “chop shop”. I agree with headcase that it looks like you just started cutting things off to just cut them off with no regard to actual esthetics.

You know what I think? I think you need to get away from trying to reduce weight. If you want to do that, DESIGN the marker lighter in the first place. This cutting stuff off is just not cutting it (no pun intended) in the looks department. You took what was a unique looking marker and, well…..made it more unique, but not in a good way.

I look forward to seeing it progress… but again, I would not buy this one either.

(Note: I agree about the standard battery as well. Maybe a standard one, but the shorter version?)

Manuel_FZR

01-06-2002, 06:42 AM

Originally posted by shartley
(...)
You know what I think? I think you need to get away from trying to reduce weight. If you want to do that, DESIGN the marker lighter in the first place.
(...)

I don´t agree with you shartley! I think, the body is one of the main parts of the marker - so you have to start at one point to reduce weight ... here they started with the body;
The other options to make it lighter are the gripframe and the valve. There aren´t more "big parts" on the Xtreme or any Mag at all!
I think the body is one big point to make it lighter.
Like in motorcycle-racing, you have to go step by step to get the light-weight of a racing bike ...

John Sosta, AGD Europe

01-06-2002, 06:44 AM

Originally posted by shartley
I was HOPING that you would take the first one, and since you said it was sculpted, just smooth out all the etching. You know, keep the basic shape you were trying to get, just refine it and smooth it out.

It just goes to show how much you can see from a picture in 2D... this one is EXACTLY the same sides as the last one just smoothed out instead of cutting the pattern into it... exactly what you say above... :rolleyes:

Oh and with one prototype cut for some module stuff they are doing at the back and bottom of the module. This has been removed from subsequent programs.

It just has extra on the slot (because you all said to show the valve...) and on the top of the body to give it a motorbike saddle look... all the lines flow from each other and are tangential/parrallel where possible.

The bottom of the body is the same width as the top of the grip frame.

It is a very sleek design.

I'm gonna tie down John 'the Bang' Sosta from taking pics until the bodies are finished as you guys cleary are having trouble looking at raw aluminium parts and imagining what they will look like when finished :)

The body does fit to the width of the module, it flows out to fit it at the front and then back in after the module. It looks a little weird in the pic beucase you can not see the 3D shape and because all the ally parts are in different levels of finish.

The blade trigger has to be 'fat' to get the magnet into it, this is just a quick prototype I knocked up. I'm working on how to make one and make it 'look' thinner.

You can't please all of the people all of the time. :)

manike

John Sosta, AGD Europe

01-06-2002, 06:50 AM

Originally posted by Manuel_FZR
Like in motorcycle-racing, you have to go step by step to get the light-weight of a racing bike ...

The inspiration for the top of this one was a motorbike saddle and rear mudguard. I'm not sure if the pictures show that but that's what the top of it looks like. You should like it Manual_FZR. It definitely looks racy.

All the lines are fluid polynoms and tantential curves and the shape idea also extends onto the square battery pack that we are cutting.

These are all going to be limited edition designs. You can still buy the standard extreme. If you don't like it don't buy it. Just wait for the next design to come along that you do like. :)

I'm not trying to design one gun that will fit everyone. I'm doing different styles for each gun.

manike

shartley

01-06-2002, 07:30 AM

Manike
Okay, thanks for clearing that up. Well, then my original opinion of the first design are even more correct (for my taste). I had hoped that since you were “selling” folks on the fact that you could not see the contoured effects you created, that I was missing something. I guess I was not. But thank you for clearing that up.

I see where you are trying to go with it though… and I still would like to see more fluid edges, more of a melting of lines. Sort of like if you could take your concept and “melt” it a bit (bringing more of the affects that we saw with Triggernomic’s work.. as was stated by another poster). As it is now, it just looks too chiseled as opposed to sculpted.. and there is a difference.

But you are VERY correct.. you can’t please all of the people all of the time. But this is what you wanted.. right? Just tossing around ideas. And I think this is going quite well.

Manuel_FZR
To compare a Paintball Marker to a racing motorcycle where your REASONS for reducing weight are (to say the least) different, is not quite accurate in my opinion. They want to shave off as much weight on each part to create an overall large weight reduction. With a Paintball Marker, you are taking a relatively light product to begin with, and shave off a few oz.s.

And as has been discussed many times on AO, you then take THAT marker and slap on a relatively heavy (in comparison) Air Source, regulators and gauges, and hopper full of paint.. let alone a Warp Feed, and your batteries. So, I will stick with my feelings that you either design a light marker to begin with, or make your milling more of a sculpting thing, and not weight reduction.. weight reduction WILL come with sculpting, but it is not the main focus. But that is just my opinion.

If the player has “that” much of a problem with weight…. they need more than a light marker, I suggest that a home gym would be a great start.

Oh, and on another note… I have no problems with people disagreeing with me. In fact, a well-made argument is a good thing. However, when typing, “!” is an exclamation point. This signifies an “exclamation”, or rise in voice, or feeling. I.E. excitement, anger, etc. Yelling in essence.

This may sound trivial, but while reading your posts directed at me (or parts of them concerning me), you tend to use “!” at the end of your sentences. That would be the same as TYPING ALL IN CAPS. This makes it hard to read your posts as anything other than yelling at me, or about me... very confrontational to say the least.

I know this is not a “German” thing, since I lived there for over 5 years, and they write the same way we do for the most part. I just don’t want to misinterpret your feelings or meanings.. I hope you understand. Either you are very angry at me for some reason, you are WAY too worked up over this, or it was totally unintentional on your part….. which was it? Enquiring minds want to know. :)

It is JUST a marker after all… not the Holy Grail. ;)

John Sosta, AGD Europe

01-06-2002, 07:38 AM

The circular battery pack does actually work. We will be introducing it as an option on the Xtreme. The battery shape & the Cut & Carve designs are all options. We are trying to give you a choice. It's just like anodising, some of you like black, others want red, some go for fade & chrome, everyone has their own opinion of what looks good.
Some of you have said that the design looks like cutting for the sake of it. Well isn't that what Cut & Carve is ?
It's purely cosmetic, it doesn't do anything for the performance of the product. On this particular design, we were trying to reduce weight, and make the gun look good. Again, this may not appeal to everyone, but we have reduced the weight by 5 ozs.
We are going to get these different designs anodised, and then post pics, you will notice a big improvement, as raw aluminum doesn't really do it justice.

Manuel_FZR

01-06-2002, 08:04 AM

Originally posted by shartley

Manuel_FZR
(...)
or it was totally unintentional on your part….. which was it? Enquiring minds want to know. :)

It was exactly this! ;) (another exclamation mark :D ).
I really love your sig-designs, but in this point (weight), our views differ.

I know it from motorbike-racing. There you also shave off only some gramms at several part, but in the whole, it makes the result. And these are only 15-20kg from a bike witch has 180kg ... so you see, not so much in comparison with the dry weight - but it makes the difference.
I also have no problem with the weight - i think it feels more comfortable when it´s lighter.
So why not: start with the body. ;)
I love mags and I love light markers - so I would love a lightweight mag ;)

shartley

01-06-2002, 08:22 AM

Manike
I hope you don’t mind, but I took what you already did… combined it with what others have been saying.. and came up with the following concept graphic. I think it combines the best of both worlds and thought processes.

I think this looks very slick and would work wonderfully. And I would also add that I would even take a second look at this one if it was on a shelf… and would consider buying it. It would also be VERY recognizable as the AGD Extreme. (Also it is FAR from my original Extreme Concept…. I like both very much, but they “say” different things.)

Let me know if this was more where you were heading, or would be interested in heading….

shartley

01-06-2002, 08:25 AM

Manuel_FZR
Thanks... I was hoping that was the case. :D

Yes, we view this from different perspectives… but that is a good thing. There would be no dialogue if everyone thought the same. And hopefully that will produce a product that takes the best of both form AND function.

mountaindud

01-06-2002, 08:38 AM

I like it a lot I have only two suggestions:

1) Make the foregrip with finger grooves like all the aftermarket foregrips for regular MAGs.

2) Ship them with custom made Dye Sticky Grips like you did with the Intelliframe.

John Sosta, AGD Europe

01-06-2002, 08:39 AM

Shartley,

I like that battery a lot. I can do that very easily. I will model it up.

The body is not quite so easy, we are currently limited by the extrusion we have. To shave in like you have in your 2D picture would actually cut into the barrel threaded area and it would cut through into where the valve is much more. As you cut into the side you start coming into the internal 3D shape of the valve and this dictates a lot about what you are doing. If I were starting from a square block it would be easier to do that. I'll model it up later though and see how possible it is. Sometimes you can make pictures but it's just not possible to do in reality. I'll try.

For instance the front of the bodies we are customising are already machined and I think to do your design I would need more material there... not possible with this run of bodies. Once they make them nice and square as stock ;) then that will be easier and I will be able to do more very different designs.

It looks like you have radiused it (smoothed the lines) to produce a softer shape. This may be possible. There is only 1.5mm of material in a lot of places over the valve, this means you can only cut so far before breaking through...

If you look at the CAD files I did for the fantasy E-mag competition you may get a better idea of the 3D geometry, please feel free to use those to help. Keep up with the designs it all helps.

I'm currently designing fixtures and jigs for the guys here so new body designs are on hold for the moment.

manike

headcase

01-06-2002, 08:39 AM

Originally posted by kilaueakid
Could the breech be milled more or are you leaving it alone for a reason? Seems to me there is some meet that could come off that as well.

kila

They are leaving it alone for a reason. Since the breach is removable if you get one that is milled to match the body style, in say vertical feed, and then down the road buy, say a warp breach, it's going to look pretty stupid with this large blocky breach.

Also I wouldn't be surprised if it had to do with the structural integrity of the breach. If they start cutting metal off if it, it is possible that the "legs"(the parts that rest on either side of the body" could break.

John Sosta, AGD Europe

01-06-2002, 08:42 AM

Shartley,

Did you intend for the battery pack to just be two lines cut into it or to be like three different levels?

Lines would be very easy but I was thinking three levels, but I have only 0.5mm that can be removed TOTAL! :) so each level would be 0.25mm deeper. It should work but all depends on part tolerances and set ups...

Would also cost a lot to machine... But I like the look :)

I need to get back to the mill. Lunch is almost over and the slavedrivers are back ;)

manike

shartley

01-06-2002, 09:16 AM

Manike
I was thinking the stepped affect with 3 levels. As with the other “Technical” aspects you brought up in your other post, I am not a Tech, so I just do what “looks” nice and try to not go overboard with it all. Contrary to what some might think…. I actually had to hold in the reigns a bit when working on those concept graphics…. LOL

Yes, I was going for a more radiused look. It makes it much cleaner…. And looks more “finished”.

This is actually classic “Product Development” and “Concept” phase stuff. You are the Tech.. work your magic. :D

The Artist takes what he thinks people will want and works up his concept graphics for the Tech Guys to pick apart. Then they work to a middle ground that allows the product to become a working thing of beauty. Form AND function.

I think it is wonderful that it is being done almost in “real time” and for all the AO Members to see. This is most often done behind VERY closed doors. And the fact that the Internet allows people to work so closely with each other across such vast distances gives this project a speed that was unheard of even 10 years ago (for the most part). And since this project does not effect the actual “working” parts, speed is not a bad thing.

I am very proud to be involved in this process. :)

Bluntman

01-06-2002, 09:35 AM

If they're gonna be limited edition do something more like the first one, just on ridalin so it's a little calmer. Cause I like that one more, but not if everyone gets one.

steveg

01-06-2002, 09:46 AM

shartley and Manike. You can achieve a lot of the sculpted
look with very minimal metal removal.
We had a customer who was machining microwave antenna parts
on a makino machining center It was leaving the occasional
3 micron dip (.003mm VERY small) along straight lines.
surprisingly these dips were very visible to the naked eye
Admittedly 3 micron might be a bit subtle and beyond the
abilities of a Haas, but you get the point.

paintballrulzs

01-06-2002, 10:03 AM

beutiful! i new u would get it

OhMyAMoose

01-06-2002, 10:36 AM

This new one is very sexy, I like it. But I dont think that this one should be the final design. There is something that needs to be changed. I just cant put my finger on it. Once I see the battery pack then it will be easier to tell what works. Keep up the good work.

John Sosta, AGD Europe

01-06-2002, 10:40 AM

Steveg,

yes you can notice 3 microns. You can see 1 micron differences in surface finish. Anything over 10 microns is a significant amount and can be quite easily felt as well as seen. I used to be annoyed with parts inspecting 50 microns out...

We are not working with parts that are that accurately made though. We are working with extrusions so we need to cut a significant amount to ensure as the surface moves in and out that the cut still looks uniform.

The machine accuracy and set up accuracy is vital for this (I'm trying to tech John 'the bang' Sosta just how important 0.1mm (100microns) is... :) ) and is one reason I've stopped work on bodies to get some better more accurate fixtures made.

I'm currently programming to 0.01 tolerance (10 microns). I could go down to 0.001 and I have had parts off of the machine where I used to work inspect to within 10 microns and that is after all tolerances are stacked up!

Bluntman these are going to be very limited edition. If you want one like the first version you will be able to call up and order it.

Shartley, I've done my share of designing and worked with designers my whole working career. I used to work in the Automotive industry in design and concept (Rover, Land Rover, BMW, Lincoln, Jaguar, Aston Marin...) I've worked onprojects from design concept to production parts (I did a huge amount on the new BMW Mini, from concept to production) The best designs always come from people that do have an inkling of what is actually possible.

Some designers I know just have their heads in the clouds, which is why their stuff looks great but you will never ever see it on sale or in production. This means it helps if we work within the bounds of what is feasable for the moment. Outrageous fantasy mags are cool, but not much point if we can't produce it...

So we need to go from the standard xtreme and remove material. We can not add it and we can not have material nicely annodised where the barrel or valve should actually be :)

Ideas all help though. The design and concept process spanning thousands of miles... pretty rare and pretty cool. :)

manike

Guys,

one thing I will say is none of the pictures you have seen actually do the 3D shape justice. Once we get a few anno'd and assembled I think they will be very visual.

SGTKennedy

01-06-2002, 10:45 AM

I like the looks of this new one also... i would like it more combined with a bat pack like Shartley has on the concept. With so much of the vavle visible would the whole thing be powdercoated? because the pic with valve in looks funny to me.

Edit:I also think this would be even better without the Raw aluminum, an Anno isnt practical but maybe a quick coat of a glossy black Spraypaint on the body to just give people the idea of a finished product?

Bluntman

01-06-2002, 11:09 AM

To add to my idiotic ramblings, I think the trigger should be smoothed out on the edges a little, I don't think you can make it smaller but just try and get rid of those edges, and can you not make the first one until oh say I get a job, cause I only have 7 dollars. :(

shartley

01-06-2002, 11:21 AM

Manike
I did not add the stuff about the design process for you in particular. ;) I know this is probably old hat to you by now…. I wanted to just put it in text for those who have not done this before.

This is very important stuff, and like you and I stated this process (the way it is being done now) is pretty rare and as you put it “pretty cool”.

I would like to also stress your point about having to work with an existing product/part and remove material to create the desired outcome. It would be hands down easier to be able to start with the concept, and then make the part from a solid block of material. You could then (after the initial part was made) just reproduce that part… blah, blah, blah…. I am sure everyone gets my point….. and the one Manike was making as well.

AntwanRT
Good idea… it would be nice to see it in actual colorations. But…
I also think this would be even better without the Raw aluminum, an Anno isnt practical but maybe a quick coat of a glossy black Spraypaint on the body to just give people the idea of a finished product?
There ARE other ways to show it in full color without actually doing the Anno job, OR painting it…. This was done "VERY" quickly, but gives you a good idea. :D :D :D

John Sosta, AGD Europe

01-06-2002, 11:22 AM

Bluntman, do you own an E-mag? if so go get a job and I will sell you that prototype as is for 7$ :) (with proof of your new job of course).

That trigger was something I designed quickly in 15mins as we were waiting for lunch, it was just a quicky and is very rough. I don't like it that much and will be working on a nicer one when I get time. Trouble is it's a lot of work for a small part. How much do custom triggers usually sell for? They are a pain in the Arse to machine and finish and set up for small batches.

I wasn't expecting pics of it to make it onto the net. You can't belive how priveleged you guys are seeing such early prototype stuff, tooling marks and all. Everyone else waits for a glossy annodised product before showing it off...

manike

shartley

01-06-2002, 11:30 AM

or.... you get the idea.
Well.. I have to run.... check back later. :D

paintbattler

01-06-2002, 11:36 AM

i'd take it in a heartbeet. nice milling

TITAN

01-06-2002, 11:36 AM

i dont really like the round battery i actually like the regular one better and i really dont like the milled trigger frame at all, and the blade trigger looks a little weird but maybe it feels good

udtseal

01-06-2002, 11:41 AM

the round battery holder looks odd, but once again, I love shartleys blue one a few posts back!! thats HOT!!

irbodden

01-06-2002, 11:42 AM

Wow, I like Shartley's design. I really enjoy the simple milling done to the battery pack, very nice.

Now that Shartley colored that Emag in, it looks even better. I'd love to see that style design devolped more, possible leaving a tad bit more of the body intact, and doing someother milling to it.

I can't make my mind they are all so purdy! Bluntman, I already have $20 towards a new Emag, MWHAHA. And once I find a job, it's all mine. Think Tom would want some underpayed slave labor over the summer? Maybe PBGear needs a new recruit to take over messing up orders too. BTW, both AGD and PBGear are like 15 minutes from me. :cool:

SGTKennedy

01-06-2002, 11:45 AM

i think that looks so much better. its not perfect but the color seems to make it... im sure all the angels look horrible with the raw aluminum and tooling marks visible.

Thanks to everyone thats involved for showing us even at such early stages, this is another reason i will always own an AGD marker, they go to extreme lengths to please us.

justinellery

01-06-2002, 12:01 PM

I like the simplicity of mags. I like seeing metal shaved that doesn't need to be there. Looks good!!

ciaran.mooney

01-06-2002, 12:25 PM

What type of barrel are in those pictures?

Dave

01-06-2002, 12:54 PM

I have not had a chance to read every single post, so if I repeat something, I'm sorry-

This one is MUCH MUCH better looking to me than the first one. I like how front of the top of the body angles up to the module, then drops off, then starts another gradual curve up to the top of the end of the valve, try to picture a smooth lightening bolt on its side-I definitely like that, keep that idea going for sure! It would be good to cut into the module a little because that is basically a big square in a curvature patter, and sticks out. It wouldn't take muchs, just flow it into the design.

The only prob I have with this design is think if you have to field strip the gun on the field, and when you pull the valve out, the gun accidentally slips out of your hands, falls, lands on one of those end spikes, and it either bends it or breaks off. Now this may not be a valid point because of the meat of the metal, but please consider it, because AGD has a reputation(as far as I am concerned) for making products as tough as rocks. You don't want people going around saying "Don't buy the new X-treme E-Mag, if you just drop it, half the body would break off" (I am exaggerating a little here, but that is what people tend to do when they tell these kinds of stories)

But anyway, MUCH MUCH better:), keep the main form, work on the module, and the smaller details.

-Dave

nutz

01-06-2002, 12:56 PM

tom all that stuff looks amazing :D

ArthurDent

01-06-2002, 12:59 PM

that looks sweeet and yes its been said 50 times but it is way better then the first one.

Dave

01-06-2002, 01:17 PM

I dunno if this was dicussed or not, or if it is even possible, but I think the actual grip frame could use some help. I don't like several things about it. One is the finger grooves, like MagHog mentioned. I don't like the idea of them there at all, because they are somewhat limiting...you put in 3 grooves, it means it's meant to put 3 fingers there, with 1 moving the trigger. Or with only 2, its meant for 2 fingers to use the trigger. Now please hear me out-I have the intelliframe, and it came with DYE Stickies, which have 2 grooves. Now I prefer to only use 1 finger to fire, not 2, so I keep 1 on the trigger, 3 on the grip, as it helps be stabilize the gun better. the DYE stickies felt completely TERRIBLE cause I would have 3 fingers where there were only two grooves, and it was extremely uncomfortable. My suggestion is to not put any grooves in the frame.

Now about the main part of the frame, in the front, where the grooves are, it looks messed up, cause it was flat to begin with. The front of the Intelliframe had a nice round curve to the front of it, and that made it feel sooo nice to grip it! Another think is that the whole grip frame looks kind of off, because on the back of it, right above those 2 little grooves for the electronic buttons, the frame comes to a steeper angle, and makes the neck of the grip frame look fatter and less attractive( to me) Now, take the intelliframe, the back of it goes straight up, and it looks very stylish. My best advice is to deisgn the main angles and contours of the grip frame just like the intelliframe, it will feel better and look better( to me). Please try it out if you can! :)

-Dave

headcase

01-06-2002, 01:48 PM

Dave -- You've field stripped your marker, aka taken the valve out during a game? This is the only time I could really see what you are talking about happen. Usually when I work on markers it is over a table. I also think there is enough thickness left that the rear two points shouldn't bend.

I also see where you are coming from with the frame, but you have to remember they are mod'ing the existing frame, not building a new one. Also remember Manike cut that frame up for him, and AGDE decided to do the same changes on the extreme C+C, so currently it is how he liked it. I guess they could just mill the front of it flat, which would make the grips thinner, and I don't think anyone would have any problems with it. But you seem to be in the minority, as most people love the DYE Stickies( I personally think it is a "cool" thing, not because they are all that comfortable, they really aren't anything special)

Mega Man

01-06-2002, 02:47 PM

well heres my opinion on how i think it should look. I know it is REALLY bad but i just whooped this up in paint in about a minute just to give you the general idea of how i fell it should be. Well it is pretty much just like the prototype on this thread except I put SHartleys battery pack and I added some "lines/metal to where the valve would be so the people who would rather not have the valve showing alittle happier.

Mega Man

01-06-2002, 02:51 PM

here we go again

Rynoboy06

01-06-2002, 03:57 PM

This one owns the first. It's starting to look, well, extreme. (covers head in remorse for bad pun) Maybe some organic vertical ridges on the breech area alone, fading out into the rest of the body? I think that would look really cool. Is the 3-finger grip here to stay? I hope so.

Bluntman

01-06-2002, 04:46 PM

Oh uh yeah... I was just hired as the official AGD prototype Emag tester... ask Tom he hired... he's probably forgotten by now though, so you should just take my word.

RaV3n_Pa1ntba||

01-06-2002, 04:52 PM

Ahh now this is a choice i personally like. Just needs a nice fade or maybe some good polishing. Maybe a little more "molding" kinda milling.

MajorDamage

01-06-2002, 05:07 PM

How do I put it...Fugly? Pug Fugly? Yes that will do. The other one was much better...This is pretty pug fugly.

ENDO!

FooTemps

01-06-2002, 05:15 PM

This one just looks weird. I like the other one better.

Failure

01-06-2002, 05:35 PM

The other was the aztec design, this one should be labeled as the pelican design. Look at the back of the gun, it looks like a pelican beak. Or sperm whale head.

FooTemps

01-06-2002, 05:49 PM

I'd like to see a smoother and flowing design. Some are too sharp or the carving doesn't flow together well.

RSUAVE911

01-06-2002, 07:35 PM

I kinda do not like that back of the gun so much...I do not like the way the valve is exposed so much...I agree with headcase on what he said...It kinda looks like you are just cutting just to make it lighter.

Big improvedment from the previous AZTEC DESIGN.

I think on the front of the gun, you should carve it so it looks like its swallowing the barrel, kinda like what you did in the back, but different. (not sure how).

BIG IMPROVEMENT FROM LAST GUN...KEEP IT UP!! ;)

845

01-06-2002, 08:03 PM

Big improvement from the last one. Good job keep up the good work.

mrhooie

01-06-2002, 08:11 PM

me likey

me likey alot

Mr. T!

01-06-2002, 09:19 PM

What's up with the trigger and the trigger frame? It looks completely retarded and out of place in terms of the guns apperance!

Vil3

01-06-2002, 09:39 PM

i honestly thought the first looked a whole lot better

prikkaboo

01-06-2002, 10:45 PM

i see most people dont really like it, but i think it looks really cool. i like how the back looks like it lifts up. it seems to have a good flow to me. like a futuristic anime mecha look. (much like neon genesis evangelion for those who watch) i think it looks really cool. maybe a little more work but that sweeping back end rules. i agree with those who said the frame shouldnt have grooves. they seem too restrictive, like theyre telling your fingers where to go. just like with the bushmasters vs. defiant frames, the bushmaster feels much more comfortable to me, and if you want grooves you have a choice with dye stickies but your not forced to have em. if you ever wanna sell that prototype body let me know.hehe

DiRTyBuNNy

01-06-2002, 11:56 PM

I haven't spoken at all yet...because i'm poor and i'm still waiting to get all my minimag parts in so i can finish it (i've been waiting for almost 6 weeks now..nobody's fault..the intelli's are worth waiting and my superbolt is sitting on the floor in my room still in the bag from AGD)...I personally like this design..i like how it flows and i think that it shows a lot of promise...but the only thing i would like to see if the backend closed up a little bit more...using the pelican analogy from before, I would like the mouth to be closed a little more..it just looks like a little bit too much of the valve is showing.I also like the square battery pack...just mill some slight finger grooves in the front end of it and it will all be good...and as far as people saying that a lighter X-Mag is better..then you've never held an extreme yet..i had a chance to hold an SFL at the CalJam last year..and that sucker was so slight you would swear to yourself it wasn't an *ss heavy mag...but oh well...i digress...

FooTemps

01-07-2002, 12:11 AM

Originally posted by prikkaboo
i see most people dont really like it, but i think it looks really cool. i like how the back looks like it lifts up. it seems to have a good flow to me. like a futuristic anime mecha look. (much like neon genesis evangelion for those who watch) i think it looks really cool. maybe a little more work but that sweeping back end rules. i agree with those who said the frame shouldnt have grooves. they seem too restrictive, like theyre telling your fingers where to go. just like with the bushmasters vs. defiant frames, the bushmaster feels much more comfortable to me, and if you want grooves you have a choice with dye stickies but your not forced to have em. if you ever wanna sell that prototype body let me know.hehe

NO WAY DOES THAT LOOK EVEN CLOSE TO SOMETHING FROM EVANGELION!

prikkaboo

01-07-2002, 12:56 AM

hehe ok maybe it doesnt look like evangelion, but it does remind me of their mechas hehe. closest thing i could think of. certainly not gundam. it reminded me of how they looked mechanical yet still had a pretty organic feel to em.

manike

01-07-2002, 05:12 AM

Hello Everyone :) Well I'm back posting under my own nick. I think I doubled John Sosta's post count in the few days I was down there!

Originally posted by Maghog
Manike-we discussed roughing out an extreem body with excess amounts of aluminum specifically for carving. Any chance you mentioned that to John yet?

I'm working on them ;) There is little chance or a square block to work from at the moment (I'm working on that too) but it is looking more likely that in the future I will have basic extrusions without any of the cosmetic cuts toi work from.

manike

p.s. I thought you might like the Aztec style one. :)

manike

01-07-2002, 05:15 AM

Originally posted by AntwanRT
im sure all the angels look horrible with the raw aluminum and tooling marks visible

Yep, you are looking at things straight off the mill. Here you often loose the shape because raw aluminium doesn't photgraph well. It will also make you think you see things that are not there just due to how the tool has cut the metal.

Even as I type the first prototypes are on their way to be polished/blasted and annodised. I'll bet they photograph better then.

manike

manike

01-07-2002, 05:21 AM

Originally posted by Dave
The only prob I have with this design is think if you have to field strip the gun on the field, and when you pull the valve out, the gun accidentally slips out of your hands, falls, lands on one of those end spikes, and it either bends it or breaks off. Now this may not be a valid point because of the meat of the metal, but please consider it, because AGD has a reputation(as far as I am concerned) for making products as tough as rocks.

I know what you mean and I was concerned at first also. so I sneakily 'leant' on one when no-one was looking. It's bloody stiff and isn't going anywhere easily. The metal is quite thick on top (as thick as some drop forwards) and the tubular shape makes it quite strong and stiff.

If you were to drop it, like any gun, you would ding it but I wouldn't be very worried about bending in the top at all. It would actually be a heck of a lot stronger than the top bit that sticks out the back on the SFL.

manike

Maghog

01-07-2002, 05:23 AM

Thanks, time is not an issue anyways, so when the time comes, let me know and we'll take it from there.

manike

01-07-2002, 05:24 AM

Originally posted by Mr. T!
What's up with the trigger and the trigger frame? It looks completely retarded and out of place in terms of the guns apperance!

hhhmm in what way? The gripframe is a one off I designed for myself, but some of the ideas are going to be available as options (option means you have a choice to get a different one if you do not like this one!)

The trigger was done very quickly as a prototype and the reason for it was to see if making a blade would put the finger contact points too far forwards. It was also to see if you would be able to operate the gun with a finger behind the bottom of the trigger. And it was done to see if it would look too fat in the frame.

This PROTOTYPE proved out the functionality and ideas it was supposed to perfectly.

manike

manike

01-07-2002, 05:33 AM

Originally posted by prikkaboo
i agree with those who said the frame shouldnt have grooves. they seem too restrictive, like theyre telling your fingers where to go. just like with the bushmasters vs. defiant frames, the bushmaster feels much more comfortable to me,

Hi,

Do you have an E-mag? If you grip the frame you can see how the fingers below the guard sit. There is actually also a lot of room below your little finger when using it conventionally. I have big hands and can use it with two fingers below the guard or even three! It all fits on the grip fine. Jackie who has small hands also thinks it fits her too...

The finger grooves are an option, I intend to provide modular programs so that you can order it with or without the grooves, the narrowed back, or the extra finger slot for single finger firing. You may need to wait longer to get your gun, but that is what custom is about. You get OPTIONS!

Originally posted by prikkaboo
if you want grooves you have a choice with dye stickies but your not forced to have em. if you ever wanna sell that prototype body let me know.hehe

Unfortunately there are no DYE stickies available for the E-mag (I'm working on that also!) so you do not have an option for them anywhere else than if you order them on your frame.

and

Originally posted by Dave
I don't like the idea of them there at all, because they are somewhat limiting...you put in 3 grooves, it means it's meant to put 3 fingers there, with 1 moving the trigger. Or with only 2, its meant for 2 fingers to use the trigger.

No you don't as I stated before you can use the frame with as many fingers as you like below the trigger guard. It is large enough to work with 1, 2 or 3 fingers below comfortably. If you go find my original post on the frame you will be able to read a better description of your options on how to hold and fire with this frame.

YOU ARE NOT FORCED TO HAVE THEM IF YOU DO NOT WANT THEM :)

(yep that's me shouting) you guys have yet to click onto the fact that all of these features and millings are custom options. You have a choice. If you do not want them or do not like them no-one is forcing them onto you.

manike