Is this crazy? [Archive] - Automags.Org Online Forums

nathanjones008

05-23-2007, 11:17 AM

What about the price increase tells you they don't care about making money? It tells me the exact opposite, there is not as much demand for their product so they reduce inventory, manufacture in small lot sizes and adjust prices accordingly.

If they left the prices the same, you would have a valid point.

What i mean is not careing about making money is first off there hasnt been any new products in 3-4 years( correct me if i am wrong). If they do not produce their chances of making$$ is slim. Second of all who is going to pay 481.00 for a rt(with all the other competition), you can get a rail or a mini for 400.00? Perphaps a very select few. since december for 2006 to present time the price has risen a given 130.00, Wow! When i say they do not care about making money is because no one(except a very select few) will buy their rt marker becacuse they do not compete( if they put out new products or markers the demand will go up) if they do not compete customers will not buy. Raising the prices ( a ridiculus) amount does not help the company. :)

good point through.

Chronobreak

05-23-2007, 11:30 AM

What i mean is not careing about making money is first off there hasnt been any new products in 3-4 years( correct me if i am wrong). If they do not produce their chances of making$$ is slim. Second of all who is going to pay 481.00 for a rt(with all the other competition), you can get a rail or a mini for 400.00? Perphaps a very select few. since december for 2006 to present time the price has risen a given 130.00, Wow! When i say they do not care about making money is because no one(except a very select few) will buy their rt marker becacuse they do not compete, if they do not compete customers will not buy. Raising the prices ( a ridiculus) amount does not help the company. :)

quality anyone?

everyone else is having guns amde overseas in the thousands, agd doesnt sell enough or can afford to drop the quality with overseas manufacturing.

new products?, tac one?, ult, im sure there are 1-2 more things as well as things AGD dealers have introduced. Just becasue there isnt an 07 mag doesnt mean there isnt anything new.

ObieJ30

05-23-2007, 11:42 AM

go ahead and buy a mini and in 3 years when you cant find one part to it, you'll be wishing you had a mag.

AGD all day everydaythats the bottom line. they could charge $600 and i'd still buy one

rkjunior303

05-23-2007, 12:19 PM

quality anyone?

everyone else is having guns amde overseas in the thousands, agd doesnt sell enough or can afford to drop the quality with overseas manufacturing.

new products?, tac one?, ult, im sure there are 1-2 more things as well as things AGD dealers have introduced. Just becasue there isnt an 07 mag doesnt mean there isnt anything new.

The quality thing gets a bit old.

As for new products? When was the last time AGD came out with anything NEW, which was not a modification of something already existing?

A LONG Time.

Lohman446

05-23-2007, 12:26 PM

go ahead and buy a mini and in 3 years when you cant find one part to it, you'll be wishing you had a mag.

AGD all day everydaythats the bottom line. they could charge $600 and i'd still buy one

Im pretty certain that won't be a concern. If I wish I had a mag... I'll have a mag.

tech-chan

05-23-2007, 12:26 PM

I wanna see a valve on the bottom of the marker, more of a stacked tube design...

Chronobreak

05-23-2007, 12:31 PM

The quality thing gets a bit old.

As for new products? When was the last time AGD came out with anything NEW, which was not a modification of something already existing?

A LONG Time.

im not sure what you expect from a company who already has a valve that performs the best possible given the itnended operations. only thing that could be improved or might be disliked is the velcoity fluctuations.

and quality thing gets old?....how many of the minis had problems out of the box, and dont eveng et me started on ions. While quality isnt the end all be all it certainly makes a difference as far as overall product life and performance.

but as i said lmk how these new guns are working in 10 years...o wait i forgot most of the people wont be playing still so it doesnt matter.

if you want a cheap generic electro go get one, but dont complainabout a better built gun costing more $

tech chan, i drew up a desighn for that a while back with the valve system mounted in the foregrip and the gun was feed from the top or in the back where the valve was previously mounted. I doubt there is any interest.

Lohman446

05-23-2007, 12:37 PM

and quality thing gets old?....how many of the minis had problems out of the box, and dont eveng et me started on ions. While quality isnt the end all be all it certainly makes a difference as far as overall product life and performance..

Every marker I have ever gotten factory new has needed work otu of the box, mags, Ions, Shockers (except one), a Minion, and the minis. The only thing I have not ever had to play with to make work in the first couple weeks of use was a PM5.

zaqwert6

05-23-2007, 12:38 PM

The base $355 IIRC , was a stripped down base single trigger RT. The current price reflects some of the optional upgrades the added to the old price , now no longer an option but standard.

tech-chan

05-23-2007, 12:59 PM

Chronobreak

05-23-2007, 01:05 PM

tech chan, i drew up a desighn for that a while back with the valve system mounted in the foregrip and the gun was feed from the top or in the back where the valve was previously mounted. I doubt there is any interest.

I wanna see it, ive been working on one too.[/QUOTE]

il pm you a stripped down version il do up real quick, the actual version is in a notebook and a i dotn have a scanner. :cool:

mag_lover05

05-23-2007, 01:53 PM

id buy a ULE rt pro over a mini or rail any day... just cuz all i play is recball, the mech mag is amazing.

robnix

05-23-2007, 02:10 PM

The quality thing gets a bit old.

No it doesn't. Ever.

maglover728

05-23-2007, 02:17 PM

OMFG This again!
Listen, if AGD wanted to, they could pull their heads out of the sand and expand their customer base a bit instead of relaying on all of us. Gee, lets think, the valve is great, the LVLX stopped the chop, and all is well right...

...NOT!

Everyone keeps Saying "look at the Ion." well if AGD would do that then maybe they would be selling a few cool bodies as upgrades. OMFG give the AGGies what they want? Hand them a pretty mag? Spread the mag goodness just a bit further? They can't do that!

How long have adjustable feed necks been around? Could this feature be added to the mag? NO! that would make an already simple marker easier to set up. We can't have that I guess or it would already have been done at the factory.

Why do Spyder and Tippmann make Egrips for their markers yet AGD lets Center flag and Maco (SP?) do it for them. Could they not increase their profit margin by selling a quality electronic frame them selfs? It works, ask PMI (Piranha), Spyder, Tippmann, etc.

Maybe they should look at what the ingenious members of AO are doing and incorporate a few of our ideas into their product line. ULE the crap out of a few stock rails, and sell them with the ANNO re done, Hell while they are at it, maybe some decorate milling on the outside.

The possibilities abound, but they will not be taken advantage of. Oh-well.

RogueFactor

05-23-2007, 02:23 PM

The quality thing gets a bit old.

So does the "not anything new" thing.

As for new products? When was the last time AGD came out with anything NEW, which was not a modification of something already existing?

A LONG Time.

Almost everything(I say almost just in case there is 1) theyve come out with isnt a modification of the previous version.

Name me a few of the old AGD products that I can modify in the machine shop to make it into their new items.

Shane-O-Mac

05-23-2007, 03:00 PM

The quality thing gets a bit old.

As for new products? When was the last time AGD came out with anything NEW, which was not a modification of something already existing?

A LONG Time.

What, do you want an inferior AGD product?

And please tell us what AGD should come out with? The gun design is near perfect, and if something "New" came out it would cost much more than the current product which many people think is already to highly priced. Lets be realistic here, How many NEW mags do you think AGD makes and sells a month? New products take R&D, which isnt cheap whatsoever. AGD is content doing what they are doing, and AGD doing this makes room for aftermarket parts made by other people, helping create a better market for AGD. If you look around there are more upgrades for Mags now then there has been in a long tome, maybe even ever. Things to think about are, how many "New" products would actually sell enough, to justify the intial cost layout?
And would people pay for a Quality product instead of a cheaper made in China/Taiwan/Korea part? The market just isnt there for for new AGD products.

So again, REALISTICLY, what do you think AGD should come out with?

Arstron

05-23-2007, 03:12 PM

RogueFactor

05-23-2007, 03:19 PM

RogueFactor

05-23-2007, 03:22 PM

So again, REALISTICLY, what do you think AGD should come out with?

They want AGD to do what everyone else is doing...re-packaging last years stuff and calling it new.

There is very little that is truly new in the industry as a whole. Which is why sales are slowing, there isnt anything more to hype.

rkjunior303

05-23-2007, 03:24 PM

Mags are notorious for being inefficient... How about working on that?

Shane-O-Mac

05-23-2007, 03:26 PM

They want AGD to do what everyone else is doing...re-packaging last years stuff and calling it new.

There is very little that is truly new in the industry as a whole. Which is why sales are slowing, there isnt anything more to hype.

You and I know that, but others just dont realize how much money and time it takes to make a "New" product, and how many you have to sell to break even....................... :rolleyes:

I just wanted to see what Rk thinks..........................

Shane-O-Mac

05-23-2007, 03:28 PM

Mags are notorious for being inefficient... How about working on that?

Well my Mag is more efficent than the Ion and PM5 I had, and there really isnt much they can do about that, or they would have already.

RogueFactor

05-23-2007, 03:31 PM

Everyone keeps Saying "look at the Ion." well if AGD would do that then maybe they would be selling a few cool bodies as upgrades.

Karta, Dallara, Exile, Pariah....done. K, next...

How long have adjustable feed necks been around? Could this feature be added to the mag? NO! that would make an already simple marker easier to set up. We can't have that I guess or it would already have been done at the factory.

RPG Exile and Pariah come with clamping feednecks. Both are cut from AGD bodies....done. K, next....

Why do Spyder and Tippmann make Egrips for their markers yet AGD lets Center flag and Maco (SP?) do it for them. Could they not increase their profit margin by selling a quality electronic frame them selfs? It works, ask PMI (Piranha), Spyder, Tippmann, etc.

Cuz AGD isnt going to pay SP. Tom made that clear.....done. K, next...

Maybe they should look at what the ingenious members of AO are doing and incorporate a few of our ideas into their product line. ULE the crap out of a few stock rails, and sell them with the ANNO re done, Hell while they are at it, maybe some decorate milling on the outside.

AGD's been there, done that. It was called the ULE E-mag rail. Then there was the AGD ULE tac-rail.

Oh, dont forget the ULE rails that are cut were cut from AGD slugs called the RPG Splinter, Sleeper, Shadow, Thrasher, and Recon rails. And the TunaRail. Moreso, these rails were cheaper ANNODIZED than AGD sold their rails for UNANNODIZED.

....done. K, next....

The possibilities abound, but they will not be taken advantage of. Oh-well.

Im waiting for the possibilities that you may suggest that either 1) AGD has stated they wont ever do(sign with SP) 2) Have been done, 3) Are currently being done with AGD product

Let me know.

zaqwert6

05-23-2007, 03:41 PM

umm somone correct me if im wrong, but looking at the webpage the new rt's come with intelliframes. At the cheaper price the RT came with the single trigger didnt it? Maybe I am thinking wrong, but I am pretty sure that is the case and would be a good reason for the price jump.

The base $355 IIRC , was a stripped down base single trigger RT. The current price reflects some of the optional upgrades the added to the old price , now no longer an option but standard.

;)

Lohman446

05-23-2007, 03:44 PM

They want AGD to do what everyone else is doing...re-packaging last years stuff and calling it new.

There is very little that is truly new in the industry as a whole. Which is why sales are slowing, there isnt anything more to hype.

How about a proactive anti-chop system, programmable trigger, ability to fire in current league modes, a stock adjustable feed neck, an internal air line system to start with.

Just repacking of what has been around for years...

Oh... wait, not in a mag.

RogueFactor

05-23-2007, 03:47 PM

Mags are notorious for being inefficient... How about working on that?

So is every blow forward design. Dont you think the boys at AKA when they were making mods for AGD markers in the 90's could have cooked up something in that department if it were possible? We all know how efficient the Viking is...why couldnt they do it with a mag?

Simple. Efficiency is determined by the inherent design of the valve. Blow forwards will always be less efficient than poppets. Tom tried, and the benefits were marginal. 10% at best, he said. So if you get 1000 balls now, youll get a whole extra 100 balls. Not enough to warrant the cost of a re-design, or the title "new & improved". How much is anyone willing to pay for an extra 100 balls?

Ever wonder why no company has ever put out statistical evidence on their "efficiency mods"....because most of them dont do ANYTHING. Its hype. Magic fairy dust that you sprinkle on your marker combined with the placebo effect. They cant put out the numbers, because the numbers cant be duplicated. Wouldnt want to say "you can get 1500 shots of this", then be proven wrong when the marker doesnt do that and have to take all your product back. So instead they tell you its lighter, and how that alone should solve your efficiency issues...but make no promises so they arent responsible when it doesnt do what it says it will do.

Just like 99.9999% of all barrels do the EXACT same thing. Its a tube. But that special spiralling you have, or the fact its 16" barrel is going to somehow give you more distance on a projectile with a limited velocity of 300 fps.

AGD re-vamped their whole line between 2001-2004. If the "new" approach didnt work then, what makes anyone think doing the same thing will have a different result.

speed_ga

05-23-2007, 03:48 PM

wow AGD must be a one man operation. And running small runs to replace parts is a good thought. But really think about it. AGD is running out of stock and will soon be dead. Thats just my opinion. Even autococker is coming out with two new guns this month. AGD was one of my favorite companies when I started playing paintball. Now they act like they have run out of ideas and can't come up with something new. Yes the automag is a great gun and i'm not trying to say to reinvent a new gun but make the automag better. Look at wgp. The autococker is one gun that will be around longer than AGD because they are at least trying to compete with companies with ideas that actually put them into action!

the price increase is just AGD trying to make some more money before they decide to go cold turkey on the paintball community.

Me with a mag now :clap:
A year from now when AGD decides to go cold turkey: :cry:

but I sold my mag and got a Pm6 evil minion for 485 NIB. All I gotta say is cheers mate it was a good run of the automag. :cheers:

mabey we could all put our money together and buy AGD and teach them something about innovation and design of the future :cuss:

RogueFactor

05-23-2007, 03:51 PM

How about a proactive anti-chop system

Part of the XMag. Nobody liked it. Gotta have break beams! OMG :tard:

programmable trigger

What part of AGD not paying SP dont you understand?

ability to fire in current league modes

Against ASTM standards. Something Tom has stated he wont violate due to risk.

a stock adjustable feed neck

RPG Exile, RPG Pariah. Done.

an internal air line system to start with.

That alone should sell 100,000 of them!!! Great idea!! Man, all these years had Tom only known that the internal air line was the solution to all his problems!!!

Just repacking of what has been around for years...

Oh... wait, not in a mag.

Let me know when you have something that really warrants the title of "new". K, thanks.

RogueFactor

05-23-2007, 03:54 PM

Well my Mag is more efficent than the Ion and PM5 I had

Interesting huh.

I agree, the Blow-Forward's are all relatively as efficient as the other. Some companies are just better at BS'ing you to believe otherwise. ;)

zaqwert6

05-23-2007, 03:59 PM

Part of the XMag. Nobody liked it. Gotta have break beams! OMG :tard:

Performance of it is far subpar amongst the competition.I had a few that didn't work out of the box and/or required daily adjustment.

What part of AGD not paying SP dont you understand?

If they so hard up for business and money , maybe they should finally get off the pot and pay like everyone else. Maybe give WDP a call. ;)

Against ASTM standards. Something Tom has stated he wont violate due to risk.

They can still have modes at lower BPS marks. AGDs already released full auto software and mags the bounce at wiil (RT)

RPG Exile, RPG Pariah. Done.

Think he meant AGD , not aftermarket sources

That alone should sell 100,000 of them!!! Great idea!! Man, all these years had Tom only known that the internal air line was the solution to all his problems!!!

No but would look like something 'new'

Let me know when you have something that really warrants the title of "new". K, thanks.

There isn't anything truly new left to do. From here on out you have price points and feature set and 'new' to us. :)

RogueFactor

05-23-2007, 04:14 PM

Performance of it is far subpar amongst the competition.I had a few that didn't work out of the box and/or required daily adjustment.

IMO, the performance of break beams is subpar to Level 10. Break beams only recognize if there is paint in the breech or not. They dont do anything to be soft on paint. Unlike the Level 10.

If they so hard up for business and money , maybe they should finally get off the pot and pay like everyone else. Maybe give WDP a call.

They dont want to. Its been said, and repeated many times. Dont see that changing.

They can still have modes at lower BPS marks. AGDs already released full auto software and mags the bounce at wiil (RT)

AGD didnt release full-auto software. They released software that malfunctioned, and recalled it with a free software upgrade.

Its moot. You want modes, use XMod. You have the option, just not from AGD.

Think he meant AGD , not aftermarket sources.

Its cut from an AGD body. With a clamping feedneck. So whats the complaint?

No but would look like something 'new'

Yes, of course. Thats what they want, appearances.

There isn't anything truly new left to do. From here on out you have price points and feature set and 'new' to us. :)

Very, Very true.

It is what it is.

nathanjones008

05-23-2007, 04:21 PM

saying there is no room for improvements is like saying miracles do not exist. :)

WenULiVeUdiE

05-23-2007, 04:23 PM

And please tell us what AGD should come out with? The gun design is near perfect...

How about an efficient gun...

Yeah, RF already covered it, but so what. I still believe AGD should come out with an efficient marker design. They did everything else successfully, but failed at efficiency.

zaqwert6

05-23-2007, 04:40 PM

RogueFactor

05-23-2007, 05:10 PM

RE: Rogue -

L10 is inconsistant on soft paint as well , also requires more tuning for normal use and occasionally additional tuning depending on velocity needs (FPS Limit changes i.e - Indoor VS outdoor fields) Breaks beam eyes , "IMO" and the majority of the paintball buying public , is a superior system that acts before it's to late and not after. :) Eyes were 'new' technology in it's day , L10 was a fix for a Mag flaw as well as nothing new. Soft hit bolts and low impact bolt syetems existed prior to L10.

As for 'Modes' . . . maybe you weren't around for early AGD software but they did include burst and full auto modes way back.

The point was of course you can buy an aftermarket part for your mag , it was suggested the certain parts be included by the manufacturere , from the manufacturer. Personally I'd rather outfit with the parts I choose but I understand the sentiment. As far as I know , AGD doesn't sell RPG product included with your purchase.

Break beam eyes were a fix for a flaw in markers that chopped paint at high ROF's. 'New technology' is introduced to improve previous 'flaws'. Thats true for other markers, as well as the mag. Soft hit/Low Impact---they must have worked well....which ones are you referring to? And of those which are still around? ;)

Ive found through multiple hundreds of mags that L10 is quite consistent on paint. And requires little tuning after initial set-up for normal use. At all FPS.

Break beam eyes however cease to function, or become very inconsistent once paint breaks in the breech. Which is the reason for the "Force Mode". And they often require excessive cleaning upkeep to keep functioning properly. Something not necessary with the L10.

Which is why the Level 10 is superior, IMO.

As for modes...I was around. As previously stated:due to ASTM and insurance standards, these things were changed. Which is why the software was updated not to include them, and you can no longer get them from AGD. Until ASTM and Insurance standards change back to what they once were, maybe AGD would consider it.

Re: Parts from the mfr.- Actually, the original sentiment as I understood it was there was 'nothing new'. One of which was an ULE body with clamping feedneck. Their availability exists, from OEM AGD bodiess. So what was the point again? That it cant be had direct? OH yeah....thats something to complain about. ;)

Im sure I can work something out with AGD, if that would solve the complaint. Do you think it would?

Russ

05-23-2007, 05:19 PM

Boo-friggin' hoo, the price went up. :cry:

maybe what the kiddies need is for AGD to sell-out, and the new owners can start up production in China, and sell the markers at Wal-Mart for $149. Change the anno every year, and call it "new and improved"

There are a lot of markers out on the market. Get the one that suits you

RogueFactor

05-23-2007, 05:20 PM

Shane-O-Mac

05-23-2007, 05:47 PM

How about an efficient gun...

Yeah, RF already covered it, but so what. I still believe AGD should come out with an efficient marker design. They did everything else successfully, but failed at efficiency.

Again, I'll say it, Mags are on par with modern spooler electro guns (efficiency wise), so whats the big deal? You want a highly efficent gun? Buy a Viking, I get 5 pods on 2000psi from a 45/45 tank. But its not a Mag is it? None of the current Uber guns are all that efficent anymore, it isnt a selling point now. And like Rogue said, there isnt any more efficency to be had out of the current design, (Blow Forward) and would it be an AGD product if it went to stacked tube? Would anyone buy a completely different AGD gun? AND the big problem, is financing all that developement and startup costs of a completely new gun. Selling more guns doesnt equate to more money being made. Daily costs goes up as production does, so a company selling 3000 guns a year can be as profitable as a company selling 20,000 guns a year. It is now needed to have things made overseas to make more money, and thats just not what AGD wants to do. It's easy to armchair quaterback for AGD, but most people have no clue what it takes to do what they think is "Easy". Everything that people are wanting to be had from AGD is available in other guns and from other companys, and that helps keep a good market. And to be perfectly honest, it is better to buy a gun on the used market, than new these days.

So my bottomline is this. WHY should AGD do all these things, when they are perfectly happy with the situation as it stands? Just to make other people happy and make the same amount of money, or less?

Shane-O

Lohman446

05-23-2007, 06:19 PM

Part of the XMag. Nobody liked it. Gotta have break beams! OMG :tard:

What part of AGD not paying SP dont you understand?

Against ASTM standards. Something Tom has stated he wont violate due to risk.

RPG Exile, RPG Pariah. Done.

That alone should sell 100,000 of them!!! Great idea!! Man, all these years had Tom only known that the internal air line was the solution to all his problems!!!

Let me know when you have something that really warrants the title of "new". K, thanks.

They are all new Rogue. The eye system on the X-mag in the breech was not great. Besides, say I want one now. Let me just check into the AGD website... oh.. no not there.

Not violating ASTM standards? I apparently forgot all those E-mags that were shipped with version 1? that had multi-shot options.

I was not talking aftermarket bodies to get the solutions.

K, thanks, new

:rolleyes:

Mags are state of the art, cutting edge. The ONLY reason they are not more popular is marketing and stupid paintball players. There could never be anything better :rolleyes:

Lohman446

05-23-2007, 06:21 PM

So my bottomline is this. WHY should AGD do all these things, when they are perfectly happy with the situation as it stands? Just to make other people happy and make the same amount of money, or less?

Shane-O

I can agree with that exact sentiment. If TK is happy with AGD where it is now, if it fits his risk to reward ratio, why do anything else?

I am not going to even pretend to tell AGD what to do. TK is a pretty smart guy, and its his company that he has made successful for a long time.

However, to state, as some have seemed to, that AGD is moving forward at this point in design, that there are "no" new ideas that could be incorporated, is ridiculous.

nathanjones008

05-23-2007, 06:40 PM

[I am not going to even pretend to tell AGD what to do. TK is a pretty smart guy, and its his company that he has made successful for a long time.

However, to state, as some have seemed to, that AGD is moving forward at this point in design, that there are "no" new ideas that could be incorporated, is ridiculous.[/QUOTE]

thank you! There is always room for growth :shooting:

p.s. to make i agree with you all that making a new gun or an upgrade is expensive. But There is always a risk a company must take to make profit. I feel that if airgun comes out with a new gun or a great upgrade ie. a eletrionic trigger frame for speedball people will buy it! There is thousands of remembers on this forum and others who will support and buy. But it is only speclation on my part. But imagine the benefits that they could reap. :)

CaptainNeeda

05-23-2007, 06:44 PM

Well, if AGD came out with a factory pneu mag, I would dig into my wallet. And yes, I do know that the market for something like that might not be there, my comment is more just wishful thinking. Besides, now is a time when most of the paintball industry (rapid generalization) seems to be looking for whats 'next'. Now might not be the best time for AGD to attempt a phoenix like come back.

Ninjeff

05-23-2007, 06:47 PM

Would anyone buy a completely new AGD designed gun?

Why, hell yes I would. If its AGD i trust it.

reflective

05-23-2007, 06:54 PM

Lohman446

05-23-2007, 07:02 PM

I don't get why people don't understand that AGD doesn't need to do anything "new". AGD is like the 1911, they got it right the first time. And just as the 1911, their mainstream appeal may have waned a bit........ But in the end, the plastic pistol fad will end, and 1911/agd will still be there (where they have been all along).
Quality never gets old!
:headbang:

Funny, I own a 1911, I kept mags for a long time. I love my 1911, but I don't doubt its a niche market today. There is not going to be some great 1911 comeback where it overtakes the new "plastic pistols". They are simply different, and to many people those "plastic pistols" offer some things the 1911 does not. Even with LDA offerings from Para and the like, they are just not going to overcome the simplicity of the point and shoot weapons of today. That, and companies such as Sig-Sauer and H+K, crowd the 1911 market with non-plastic guns that seem to mix many of the best of both worlds.

Mags are much the same. The Ion may not be here in ten years, we assume AGD will (with Rogue telling us that the rail incorporated to the bottom of the intelliframe is new). The problem is, something will replace the Ion, and it (or they) will take its market share. It is not simply going to fall back to AGD, or the 1911.

Russ

05-23-2007, 07:16 PM

Funny, I own a 1911, I kept mags for a long time. I love my 1911, but I don't doubt its a niche market today. There is not going to be some great 1911 comeback where it overtakes the new "plastic pistols". They are simply different, and to many people those "plastic pistols" offer some things the 1911 does not. Even with LDA offerings from Para and the like, they are just not going to overcome the simplicity of the point and shoot weapons of today. That, and companies such as Sig-Sauer and H+K, crowd the 1911 market with non-plastic guns that seem to mix many of the best of both worlds.

Mags are much the same. The Ion may not be here in ten years, we assume AGD will (with Rogue telling us that the rail incorporated to the bottom of the intelliframe is new). The problem is, something will replace the Ion, and it (or they) will take its market share. It is not simply going to fall back to AGD, or the 1911.

You need to seriously reconsider your views of the 1911.

Count the companies that now manufacture them (Sig included)...and customize them. Look at all the accessories available.

Go to any centerfire pistol competition. No matter what the discipline, you will see 1911's in quantity. The 1911's popularity is a great as ever. Sorry, but trying to use 1911's as an example was a bad choice ;)

RogueFactor

05-23-2007, 07:21 PM

They are all new Rogue.

They arent new. Theyd only be new to mags. Hardly new at all. And frankly, these things arent whats keeping mags from 'going big'. If they changed the body, valve, on/off, bolt, frame, and rails....and that didnt work.....certainly the things you suggest arent going to either.

Ive said it before, but will say it again here....I was in a shop not but 4 months ago that had BRAND NEW DM4's, DM5's, PM5's, DM6's, PM6's...on the wall and recently purchased directly from DYE. What does that tell you? If it tells you nothing, there isnt anything for you to realize. Youve already made up your mind.

The eye system on the X-mag in the breech was not great.

Totally agreed. In fact, I think most eye systems suck. They are just a band-aid to a bigger issue.

Let me just check into the AGD website... oh.. no not there.

My point precisely. Trust me when I say, if there was demand, there would be supply.

I apparently forgot all those E-mags that were shipped with version 1? that had multi-shot options.

Are you talking about old E-mags? So you want the old back??? Which is it? Wouldnt that just be re-packaging the old? C'mon, make up your mind!

Mags are state of the art, cutting edge. The ONLY reason they are not more popular is marketing and stupid paintball players.

In many respects, this is probably the most accurate statement youve made. Its too bad you were being sarcastic.

[QUOTE=Lohman446]There could never be anything better :rolleyes:

Lets see.....shoots 300 fps....shoots as fast as one can pull the trigger.....doesnt have shoot down....doesnt chop.....is lightweight....

Whats supposed to be better? Oh, efficiency...thats right. Cuz it takes more than 1 ball to eliminate someone ;) :rolleyes:

Lohman446

05-23-2007, 07:28 PM

My point precisely. Trust me when I say, if there was demand, there would be supply.:

So, let me get this right. Its now a lack of demand that killed the premiere AGD electro? The one that had a waiting list to buy while it was being produced?

SummaryJudgement

05-23-2007, 07:30 PM

I like my mags.................. :)

reflective

05-23-2007, 07:30 PM

You need to seriously reconsider your views of the 1911.

Count the companies that now manufacture them (Sig included)...and customize them. Look at all the accessories available.

Go to any centerfire pistol competition. No matter what the discipline, you will see 1911's in quantity. The 1911's popularity is a great as ever. Sorry, but trying to use 1911's as an example was a bad choice ;)

What I was getting at, was that for a while the 1911 faded out of the mainstream, but now they are back because of how great they are.

Look at what rogue, tuna, luke, jay, pnuemagger, and others have been doing for automags. They are still the quality good ol' mag we all know and love, but we have more and more options everyday thanks to the many people designing new customizable accessories.

And I am with you Lohman446, I love glock, but I'd take a 1911 over any other pistol out there. Just like I'll take my minimag over any other marker out there.

Lohman446

05-23-2007, 07:32 PM

You need to seriously reconsider your views of the 1911.

Count the companies that now manufacture them (Sig included)...and customize them. Look at all the accessories available.

Go to any centerfire pistol competition. No matter what the discipline, you will see 1911's in quantity. The 1911's popularity is a great as ever. Sorry, but trying to use 1911's as an example was a bad choice ;)

You are right in competition, I was thinking the "everyday" household. Even my 1911 is given time off during the summer for one of those plastic guns :( . As long as I can own as many guns as I want I will always have a 1911. If I could only own one.. it probably would not be a 1911. If I kept more paintball guns than I do now one would undoubtedly be a mag. Owning the few I do now, unfortunately it is not the case.

RogueFactor

05-23-2007, 07:45 PM

So, let me get this right. Its now a lack of demand that killed the premiere AGD electro? The one that had a waiting list to buy while it was being produced?

Werent we talking about the ACE? Or something else altogether?

Lohman446

05-23-2007, 07:52 PM

The eye system on the X-mag in the breech was not great. Besides, say I want one now. Let me just check into the AGD website... oh.. no not there.

My point precisely. Trust me when I say, if there was demand, there would be supply.

Werent we talking about the ACE? Or something else altogether?

In regards to your supply and demand comment, we were talking about the X-mag.

Arstron

05-23-2007, 07:54 PM

;)

Guess your post got caught up in the arguing. ;)

LinearGoose

05-23-2007, 07:55 PM

RogueFactor

05-23-2007, 08:01 PM

The eye system on the X-mag in the breech was not great.

See, I thought we were talking about the ACE...

In regards to your supply and demand comment, we were talking about the X-mag.

Lohman446

05-23-2007, 08:11 PM

See, I thought we were talking about the ACE...

So if there was a demand for anti-chop eyes they would be available on mags?

WenULiVeUdiE

05-23-2007, 08:17 PM

Again, I'll say it, Mags are on par with modern spooler electro guns (efficiency wise), so whats the big deal? You want a highly efficent gun? Buy a Viking, I get 5 pods on 2000psi from a 45/45 tank. But its not a Mag is it? None of the current Uber guns are all that efficent anymore, it isnt a selling point now.

So my bottomline is this. WHY should AGD do all these things, when they are perfectly happy with the situation as it stands? Just to make other people happy and make the same amount of money, or less?

Last time I checked, no modern spooler gets 1200 shots off a full 88/4500. Many modern spoolers can get 700 off a 45...

Guns have been getting more and more efficient, they just have not been advertised as such. Not a selling point, but it has been getting better.

If they're happy with their user base, then they have no reason to expand their product line. I simple believe that the one area they failed in was efficiency and if they were to "get back into the game" (so to speak), they would have to improve that.

RogueFactor

05-23-2007, 08:37 PM

So if there was a demand for anti-chop eyes they would be available on mags?

If there was demand for ACE boards, theyd be available.

rkjunior303

05-23-2007, 09:17 PM

how about redesigning the valve completely? sure, sticking to your guns of a design that's going on 10-15 years old is nice and all but i'm sorry you gain new customers by being innovative.

the mag valve recharges the fastest - so what? how is that practical with the current "vision" of AGD? mechanically, you can't use it to it's full potential LEGALLY and electronically you're basically tied to a used, NICHE market.

quality - sure thats fine and dandy but im sorry, every gun if properly maintained will be reliable.

efficiency? I'm sorry, i couldn't shoot a mag in a tournament, especially in 7man... and please, don't give me a "make the shots count" speech.

why can't people admit trying to "ride out" the smart parts thing was a mistake? fact of the matter is, while people don't want to admit it - tourney ball right now is driving the majority of the paintball business. everything else is more niche than anything. and that's fine, if that's what you want to be but that's all they will EVER be unless something new comes out that's - smaller, sexier, efficient and capable of keeping up with today's NPPL or PSP formats.

i could care less either way what happens at this point. one of the first markers i ever bought myself was a minimag but at this point i would never own another one. there's markers out there that are better in every which way - for CHEAPER.

Russ

05-23-2007, 09:21 PM

"mags are dead" v.456

:rofl:

RogueFactor

05-23-2007, 09:29 PM

how about redesigning the valve completely? sure, sticking to your guns of a design that's going on 10-15 years old is nice and all but i'm sorry you gain new customers by being innovative.

Call CCI and let them know they need to redesign the Phantom! Or PPS and let them know the Blazer needs redesign too! Oh wait.....K2 needs a call, they gotta redesign the cocker..........or NOT.

Only AGD does, right?

the mag valve recharges the fastest - so what? how is that practical with the current "vision" of AGD? mechanically, you can't use it to it's full potential LEGALLY and electronically you're basically tied to a used, NICHE market.

You sure can...LEGALLY. Two leagues allow them. SPPL and CFOA. Its nice when time catches up isnt it ;) And since ramping aint allowed in the NPPL, an E-mag is just as good as any other spooler.

rkjunior303

05-23-2007, 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by rkjunior303
how about redesigning the valve completely? sure, sticking to your guns of a design that's going on 10-15 years old is nice and all but i'm sorry you gain new customers by being innovative.

Call CCI and let them know they need to redesign the Phantom! Or PPS and let them know the Blazer needs redesign too! Oh wait.....K2 needs a call, they gotta redesign the cocker..........or NOT.

Last I checked anything by CCI and Palmer's aren't exactly mainstream... and LOL at cockers, yeah - they're popularity is OFF the charts <sarcasm>. in fact, the popularity is so high right now they've resorted to turning the cocker into a generic "throwaway" next to the Spyders, Triads, and Talon's at Wal-Mart..

You sure can...LEGALLY. Two leagues allow them. SPPL and CFOA. Its nice when time catches up isnt it And since ramping aint allowed in the NPPL, an E-mag is just as good as any other spooler.

that's fine. but honestly, used e-mag sales isn't exactly helping AGD - is it? :rolleyes:

RogueFactor

05-23-2007, 09:40 PM

efficiency? I'm sorry, i couldn't shoot a mag in a tournament, especially in 7man... and please, don't give me a "make the shots count" speech.

Oh NO! A marker not made for a tournament! Whats the world coming to!?!

why can't people admit trying to "ride out" the smart parts thing was a mistake?

Calling AKA? Calling AKA? AKA, do you have an answer for this man? Darn, nobody is answering. ;)

while people don't want to admit it - tourney ball right now is driving the majority of the paintball business.

Right, driving it right into the ground. Have you wondered why sales are down 30% industry-wide? Wonder why companies are selling, merging, or going out of business altogether?

Your statement couldnt be further from the truth. Are you just making this up as you go?

everything else is more niche than anything. and that's fine, if that's what you want to be but that's all they will EVER be unless something new comes out that's - smaller, sexier, efficient and capable of keeping up with today's NPPL or PSP formats.

Show us how its done. You seem to have all the right answers. Get 'er done by now why dont ya.

BigEvil

05-23-2007, 09:40 PM

Last I checked anything by CCI and Palmer's aren't exactly mainstream... and LOL at cockers, yeah - they're popularity is OFF the charts <sarcasm>

that's fine. but honestly, used e-mag sales isn't exactly helping AGD - is it? :rolleyes:

Why does AGD need to be 'mainstream'? While we can all second guess thier past business practices, what is wrong with catering to a small to medium dedicated niche market? I think the point was that small companies like CCI and Palmers are successful, realatively speaking.

RogueFactor

05-23-2007, 09:44 PM

Last I checked anything by CCI and Palmer's aren't exactly mainstream... and LOL at cockers, yeah - they're popularity is OFF the charts <sarcasm>. in fact, the popularity is so high right now they've resorted to turning the cocker into a generic "throwaway" next to the Spyders, Triads, and Talon's at Wal-Mart..

You forgot one :spit_take ...

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/prod...duct_id=4328440

rkjunior303

05-23-2007, 09:46 PM

if they wanna be a smaller company than now caters to a smaller niche, that's great. more power to them.. but to try and say they need to come back and return to it's old glory -- it'll never happen without major product line changes.

AKA? Look where that got them. Basically selling regs and other aftermarket parts. And don't get me wrong - I *LOVE* AKA.

Show us how its done. You seem to have all the right answers. Get 'er done by now why dont ya.

i guess i would probably start by taking an existing product, say a body or a frame, making small modifications to it with some minor milling, and calling it my new, exciting product line.

*edit* as for declining product sales, i wouldn't be surprised how much of an impact the used BST market is on forums like this, PBN, etc. Between that, in addition to saturation, I bet it has more of an impact than people think - especially with the statistics that people always seem to spout of as paintball being one of the fastest growing sports in america. with growth like that, why the drop off in sales?

olinar

05-23-2007, 09:47 PM

i read about halfway through the thread and gave up because it was all the same posting. heres what i think. if automags are so inefficient and primitive, why not buy something else. trust me, no one will miss you. that just means more mags for everyone here.

rkjunior303

05-23-2007, 09:57 PM

Karta, Dallara, Exile, Pariah....done. K, next...

Karta? Not AGDs
Dallara? Not AGDs
Exile and Pariah? Definitely not AGDs.. Well, actually, they were, until you milled an ounce off of them.

How are any of those going to help AGD? Unless you're talking about the dealer cost they were purchased for..

RogueFactor

05-23-2007, 09:58 PM

if they wanna be a smaller company than now caters to a smaller niche, that's great. more power to them.. but to try and say they need to come back and return to it's old glory -- it'll never happen without major product line changes.

I guess thats where i understand they arent trying to come back to their 'old glory;. Where did you get the idea that AGD wanted to do that?

But major product line changes?....You mean like

A new valve---like the RT/X Valve? Or the ULE body? Or the ULE Trigger Kit? Or the Level 10? Or the Y-Grip? Or the Intelliframe? Or the X-Mag? Or the Tac-One? Or the........dont tell me, it needs a newly redesigned valve---THATS THE ANSWER!(Easy to say since its the only thing left....where did you ever think of that!)

i guess i would probably start by taking an existing product, say a body or a frame, making small modifications to it with some minor milling, and calling it my new, exciting product line.

How about a trigger? Or maybe 2? A feedneck? Detent? A few rails? A foregrip? A marker or two using these parts?

Itd be nice to have another mag maker though. When you gonna start? :rofl:

rkjunior303

05-23-2007, 10:02 PM

A new valve---like the RT/X Valve? Or the ULE body? Or the ULE Trigger Kit? Or the Level 10? Or the Y-Grip? Or the Intelliframe? Or the X-Mag? Or the Tac-One? Or the........dont tell me, it needs a newly redesigned valve---THATS THE ANSWER!(Easy to say since its the only thing left....where did you ever think of that!)

And how about something legitimately new that came out after 2003, besides the Tac-One. And to be honest, that doesn't even really count because it's just a new body..

no matter how you dress up the package, it's just the same old over and over.

RogueFactor

05-23-2007, 10:03 PM

Karta? Not AGDs
Dallara? Not AGDs
Exile and Pariah? Definitely not AGDs.. Well, actually, they were, until you milled an ounce off of them.

How are any of those going to help AGD? Unless you're talking about the dealer cost they were purchased for..

All milled from AGD OEM parts....nuff said.

rkjunior303

05-23-2007, 10:05 PM

All milled from AGD OEM parts....nuff said.

exactly.

how exactly do those those sales help them?

Triggers, feednecks, and detents? you're reaching, my friend. not exactly mind-blowing products there.

RogueFactor

05-23-2007, 10:05 PM

And how about something legitimately new that came out after 2003

I agree. How about something legitimately new in the PB industry that came out after 2003?

RogueFactor

05-23-2007, 10:07 PM

exactly.

how exactly do those those sales help them?

You must have missed the OEM part. :tard:

Triggers, feednecks, and detents? you're reaching, my friend. not exactly mind-blowing products there.

Call up CP and Kila! Let them know!!

rkjunior303

05-23-2007, 10:10 PM

You must have missed the OEM part. :tard:

OEM? i must have forgotten that you were paying retail on them instead of dealer cost... OF COURSE that helps them out. :rolleyes:

SCpoloRicker

05-23-2007, 10:11 PM

The AGD design has pretty much hit it's peak. Much the same as the WGP Sniper/Autocker design, or the CCI design, or the Palmers designs...

There will continue to be tweaking and dedication from a core group. But attempting to break into the increasingly corporate 'mainstream' just isn't feasible.

Someone made the analogy to the MOPAR msucle scene in one of the other threads like this. I think that's a pretty good analogy.

RogueFactor

05-23-2007, 10:13 PM

OEM? i must have forgotten that you were paying retail on them instead of dealer cost... OF COURSE that helps them out. :rolleyes:

You really dont know what OEM means, do ya?

If AGD makes it, they make money off of it. How does that help them? Is that a serious question?

Shane-O-Mac

05-23-2007, 10:16 PM

Last time I checked, no modern spooler gets 1200 shots off a full 88/4500. Many modern spoolers can get 700 off a 45...
Explain this statement, are you saying that a Mag cannot get 1200 shots from a 88/4500? My X-Valved mag w/LX, can shoot around 700 on my 45/4500, and I think that is equal to most "New" spoolers.

Guns have been getting more and more efficient, they just have not been advertised as such. Not a selling point, but it has been getting better.
Well tuned cockers used to get near 2000 for a 88/4500, so how does any gun getting lower than that getting more efficent? The original Shocker was the first air hog I can think of, and it has only gotten marginally better since.Not sure how new angels are doing for efficency though. AKA was the best electro for efficency, but SP royalty costs killed that.

If they're happy with their user base, then they have no reason to expand their product line. I simple believe that the one area they failed in was efficiency and if they were to "get back into the game" (so to speak), they would have to improve that.

Why does AGD need to "get back in the game"? A Mag isnt going to be a Nppl/PSP contender any more, so why spend all that money to sell a FEW guns. It just doesnt make good business sense.

As I said before, there are other guns that get better efficency, so buy one of them if thats your thing. Tom already did the research for more efficency and found it wouldnt be worth the cost to gain ratio.

rkjunior303

05-23-2007, 10:19 PM

You really dont know what OEM means, do ya?

If AGD makes it, they make money off of it. How does that help them? Is that a serious question?

i dont exactly see the profit margins really being that high if you rely on selling at dealer cost because you have to sell the products cheap enough to make them attractive for resale by the dealers, you have to make sure they're making money off of them as well. if they're running small product runs, obviously the cost to create the part is going to be a lot higher - making that for a much smaller window to turn a sizeable profit on dealer sales.

regardless, some of us on the east coast need to work in the morning so as much as i'd like to debate point of views all night - its time for bed.

SCpoloRicker

05-23-2007, 10:25 PM

rkjunior, I feel like you may be biased professionally, just because of the scale. A 'large' run for AGD really isn't that large.

RogueFactor

05-23-2007, 10:26 PM

i dont exactly see the profit margins really being that high if you rely on selling at dealer cost because you have to sell the products cheap enough to make them attractive for resale by the dealers, you have to make sure they're making money off of them as well. if they're running small product runs, obviously the cost to create the part is going to be a lot higher - making that for a much smaller window to turn a sizeable profit on dealer sales.

Genious. Call every manufacturer and let them know they shouldnt be selling to dealers at dealer cost. Only sell direct. Let Shockteck know they need to close the doors and stop making all their versions of the popular markers. Call CCI let them know there isnt enough margin to exist. Let me know how they respond. ;)

regardless, some of us on the east coast need to work in the morning so as much as i'd like to debate point of views all night - its time for bed.

That sucks. I was hoping you get us riled up :ninja:

LinearGoose

05-23-2007, 10:26 PM

no matter how you dress up the package, it's just the same old over and over.
Isnt that what everyone else is doing?

As for mags I really do think they would become popular in next decade or so and I think there a great highend mech gun.

Warning: (I base this conclusion off my head and this is why)

If you see there seems to be more pumps for sell and seems that more people are playing pump. I drew this conclusion because I see some pump players at the field and I see people wanting to buy them and talk playing there first game with them in this forum. People are playing pump because they are just getting tired of just unloading every game and are looking for that adrenaline rush like they had when they first played this sport. So lets say this trend continues well pretty soon people are going to want something faster but not as fast as an eltro. Still looking for that adrenaline rush but yet having a bit more of a fast pace game. So where do they go to next a nice highend mech gun and the circle of life continues once more.

Shane-O-Mac

05-23-2007, 10:28 PM

And how about something legitimately new that came out after 2003,

no matter how you dress up the package, it's just the same old over and over.

That applies to MOST paintball guns.

How "New" is the alias Timmy versus the old classic? Not much, just tweaked and repackaged.

PM5 vs Matrix, a few efficency improvements, and milling, repackaged.......................

Hell, any stacked tube electro design is just an Electonic PMI III.................

Spoolers started with the Mag, the ICD made the Desert Fox which didnt have the on/off that Mags did, so really all the spoolers are electro Desert Foxes, Repackaged.............

See the trend, there hasnt been much "New" in gun design in a LONG, LONG time.

maglover728

05-24-2007, 12:09 AM

HEY ROGUEFACTOR: You have Mail!

Karta, Dallara, Exile, Pariah....done. K, next....

And these all came Stock from AGD? And they are still in production from AGD? So AGD is making the money off their production, not just the sale of slug bodies?

RPG Exile and Pariah come with clamping feednecks. Both are cut from AGD bodies....done. K, next.....

Great, And these also are widely available? Cheap for Joe Noob, the guy thats going to be playing for the next decade and will be the future customer for AGD? I want my Pro Classic to come with one so I don't have to mess with the crappy feed elbows. Luke makes the classic feeds into verts and adds a clamping feed neck, he has the right idea and is making the money that AGD should be. While you were preaching, I assume that the stock ULE bodies were beginning to be factory back fitted with them???

Cuz AGD isnt going to pay SP. Tom made that clear.....done. K, next....

I may be wrong here but, I thought that that only applied if the gun was run by electronics. i.e. markers that don't use hammers to open the valve. If the patent includes the actuation of the sear by a noid, then I rescind this segment of my previous post. SP=Devil!

AGD's been there, done that. It was called the ULE E-mag rail. Then there was the AGD ULE tac-rail.

Oh, dont forget the ULE rails that are cut were cut from AGD slugs called the RPG Splinter, Sleeper, Shadow, Thrasher, and Recon rails. And the TunaRail. Moreso, these rails were cheaper ANNODIZED than AGD sold their rails for UNANNODIZED.

....done. K, next.....

Yeah, "were cut." Still in FACTORY PRODUCTION? I guess that AGD should find a cheaper ANNO company. My question was (Next time read it and if you post, try to include an answer) was why doesn't AGD look at what we are doing and offer it from the factory, You answered with non factory and out of production items as well as the name of a fellow AOer and his product. (Great AOer, Great Product by the way!) Thanks for making my point for me.

"K, next....

Im waiting for the possibilities that you may suggest that either 1) AGD has stated they wont ever do(sign with SP) 2) Have been done, 3) Are currently being done with AGD product

Let me know.

See above, answer the questions. I am waiting for a reply that might offer Joe Noob some hope that he won't have to settle for an Ion because AGD is going to make these product options (like other manufactures) STANDARD and cheap enough for his parents to make his Christmas dreams come true.

And by the way, by inaccurately dissecting my previous post, your last paragraph was backwards and useless. Nice try though.

LinearGoose

05-24-2007, 12:49 AM

^^^^ To respond to your post I kind of like being the only Mag user and really dont care if no one uses them including Mr. Joe Noob. Im not saying there the ultimate marker and everyone should use it but for example I knew about mags for about 8 or so years but never really thought about purchasing one till last year. Thought Ill give it a try and now I dont regret it at all and love my classic. I guess what im saying is people shoot what they want to shoot and if all the Mr. Noobs decided that they want a mag then they will buy one. Also about parts being avaliable from the manufacture I guess Mr. Noob wouldnt want an Ion either because all there cool bodies are made by different manufacturers not by SP.

RogueFactor

05-24-2007, 12:55 AM

And these all came Stock from AGD? And they are still in production from AGD? So AGD is making the money off their production, not just the sale of slug bodies?

Yes, Slugs are in production. You want one? ;)

Kartas were available from AGD. You guys didnt buy enough of them to keep them in stock.

Which of those parts would you like from AGD. You know, direct? I will get it worked out so that you can buy them direct from AGD. It will cost you more though. Thats the nature of buying direct.

Great, And these also are widely available? Cheap for Joe Noob, the guy thats going to be playing for the next decade and will be the future customer for AGD? I want my Pro Classic to come with one so I don't have to mess with the crappy feed elbows. Luke makes the classic feeds into verts and adds a clamping feed neck, he has the right idea and is making the money that AGD should be. While you were preaching, I assume that the stock ULE bodies were beginning to be factory back fitted with them???

Yep, sure are. They are available. Now you are throwing in cheap. Didnt you read the first post? Prices went up, not down. You wont find the cheapest price direct from the manufacturer, doesnt work that way. From any manufacturer. Thats life.

And now you want AGD to go back? And make Stainless Steel bodies? Man, you all cant make up your mind. First you want new, then you want old. You know, since ULE bodies dont use elbows :p

I may be wrong here but, I thought that that only applied if the gun was run by electronics. i.e. markers that don't use hammers to open the valve. If the patent includes the actuation of the sear by a noid, then I rescind this segment of my previous post. SP=Devil!

It includes anything that uses electricity to fire a paintball marker.

Yeah, "were cut." Still in FACTORY PRODUCTION?

Right, cut from FACTORY parts IN PRODUCTION.

My question was (Next time read it and if you post, try to include an answer) was why doesn't AGD look at what we are doing and offer it from the factory, You answered with non factory and out of production items

Wrong. I answered with parts that ultimately came from AGD. Supporting AGD. There arent any parts that HAVE to start from AGD FACTORY parts.

See above, answer the questions. I am waiting for a reply that might offer Joe Noob some hope that he won't have to settle for an Ion because AGD is going to make these product options (like other manufactures) STANDARD and cheap enough for his parents to make his Christmas dreams come true.

Tell Joe Noob that when there is enough demand, thats exactly what will happen. Until then, tell Joe Noob if he wants a mag, he will have to buy those same parts cheaper from an AGD dealer that cuts them from AGD parts;)

And by the way, by inaccurately dissecting my previous post, your last paragraph was backwards and useless. Nice try though.

I think you are mistaken. You have it backwards. What you want is available. They are cut from AGD parts, and are to AGD specs. And are as cheap as they will get, considering this post started originally with prices went UP, not DOWN. This fulfills all your requirements.

Nice try though.

BigEvil

05-24-2007, 04:52 AM

And how about something legitimately new that came out after 2003, besides the Tac-One. And to be honest, that doesn't even really count because it's just a new body..

no matter how you dress up the package, it's just the same old over and over.

Bro.. that is true of 99% of EVERY new gun out there. "Just the same over and over"

WenULiVeUdiE

05-24-2007, 05:23 AM

Explain this statement, are you saying that a Mag cannot get 1200 shots from a 88/4500? My X-Valved mag w/LX, can shoot around 700 on my 45/4500, and I think that is equal to most "New" spoolers.

No, I am saying when I shot an RT Mag I got 1200 off a full 88/4500...which is horrendous.

Well tuned cockers used to get near 2000 for a 88/4500, so how does any gun getting lower than that getting more efficent? The original Shocker was the first air hog I can think of, and it has only gotten marginally better since.Not sure how new angels are doing for efficency though. AKA was the best electro for efficency, but SP royalty costs killed that.

Egos are near AKA.
MacDev is at AKA.
Timmies- Still quite good. Not AKA, but still quite good.
DM/PMs are getting up there.
Shockers- Stock, horrid. Spend $75 and you boost it quite a bit.

Essentially all new modern guns get better than the original Shoebox Shockers. It used to be a selling point because all guns had greatly varying shot statistics. But now they are pretty much even....

Why does AGD need to "get back in the game"? A Mag isnt going to be a Nppl/PSP contender any more, so why spend all that money to sell a FEW guns. It just doesnt make good business sense.

They don't need to. It just seemed like that's what the tone of the discussion was...

nathanjones008

05-24-2007, 07:24 AM

This is what i am looking at. I hear alot about when the demand goes up again they (agd) will lower the prices? How will the demand go up? How about a little advertising? A good place to start is the apg magazine! Just do it once a year! It will cost alot of money but it is a good risk to take. I think its good to show the world, despite everything AGD is till alive and kicking! How can they make the prices cheaper? I do not know?But the way they are doing it isnt working. It will take some deep thought and ( money)planning.The company just cant wish for the demand to go up , you gotta be a go getter, make it happend. and just ANother way is to rise the demand. A good way is to get rid of the powerfeed bodies or sluggs or whatever they are called and have the ule bodies stock with the all the guns! The days of twist lock are over! ( they are not being made as far as i know). You may say then just get another gun. I have i just bought one. And i still have two mags. 5 years down the road i still would like to (easily) find a parts kit or even buy a new mag without paying a arm and a leg. I strongly believe that eveyone on this forum would like to see agd come out with something new, deep down inside. The way a compay thrives is listening to the customers, I imagine all of us in forum and others are customers or potenial customers. There has been alot said over the years about some great ideas from paintballers from inventions or ideas and lately(2-3) years nothing has happended.( i mean agd alone not rouge or tuna they have done a good job). As much as i do not like smart parts, it seemed that they listen to their customers, people wanted a good tourney gun at a fair price, so they relased the ion. It isnt the best gun, but it is a good gun thousands have bought it, it helped the growth of the sport. The demand was a good gun at a fair price and the company gave it to the people. there has been much discussion the past day about this and everyone has given some great ideas, it has opened my mind a bit. Thanks everyone you guys are awsome.! :)

Small and simle changes will make a world of a difference. One change at a time.

Lohman446

05-24-2007, 08:15 AM

In order for things to change TK has to want them to change - enough to invest enough money and effort to affect a change. If he does not want to, who can blame him. PPS / CCM have survived as niche companies in paintball.

zaqwert6

05-24-2007, 08:30 AM

Guess your post got caught up in the arguing. ;)

Pretty much. :) Despite that , Rogue is going to say what ever he wants as truth , even when he's wrong . He just re-spins his previous statements.

I'll give him credit for being a great recycler tho. :D He'd make a good environmentalist. :hail:

rkjunior303

05-24-2007, 08:51 AM

nathanjones008

05-24-2007, 09:21 AM

Hire rouge to take toms spot! He has innovation! :hail: :clap:

Lohman446

05-24-2007, 09:22 AM

Don't you mean, what's his name.. The guy that's MIA.. Zupe? LOL.

I don't even know who's in charge anymore - I still am of the beleif TK holds all the strings - ownership of the company, patents, etc. I think Zupe simply owns the inventory.... could be wrong, not my business really.

Lohman446

05-24-2007, 09:22 AM

Hire rouge to take toms spot! He has innovation! :hail: :clap:

His definition of "new" sucks.

zaqwert6

05-24-2007, 09:24 AM

Here's the bottom line to everyone else.

This thread has been done to death. I'll sum it up right here . . .

There are people who would like to see some real progress and advancement from AGD and thier product line , some change that might move it closer to the main stream , keep it affordable to those who have been loyal the brand and those looking to 'give it a try' AND just maybe a little bit . . . be able to gain some pride of ownership from our peers at the field. I think most of us would agree to that statement.

Everytime the subject comes up in one way or another all 'we' get from AGD and the 1 or 2 active AGD dealers left in business is little more than the trashing of everyone else products followed by speeches about how the AGD line is good enough and 'we' should all be happy with that.

'We' ask for something new and we got told that there is nothing new anywhere else so why should we get it here.

If were not happy with something currently AGD , the answer is everyone elses version of that sucks too so we should again we should be happy with that.

'We' ask for something new and right after the speech about how every other product is just re-milled last years product , then are told to look at all AGDs 'new' re-milled last year product . . . only problem there is our new re-milled stuff is based on 5 to 10 year old designs at best, unless of course you account for the invention of aluminum.

Then the whole thing drops into an arguement over little more than sentence structure and "literal" interpretation when everyone involved knows what everyone else was really trying to say.

Bottom line is this as I see it , I could be wrong.

We who are AGD fans want to be proud of that , we want that to be acknowledged by the rest of the paintball world. We want to get excited about what AGD is doing for us , them and the future , we want to be able continue to buy and use thier product and we want to see the company prosper and grow. We all have ideas of what would make that happen, again we could be wrong at times but you never know. ;)

But . . . what we all know is that doing nothing , limiting supply , raising prices (when they should be going down) and depending on like the one or two dealers left in the business to re-invent the same minimal product line over and over again is NOT the answer. Not to mention I shouldn't have to buy most of those parts in the aftermarket when the Manufacturer is suppling the aftermarket with the raw stock parts in the first place. All that product could and 'should' be offered by the manufacturer as stock product. I'm sure AGD could add a few cuts to a ULE body , another trigger style , screw on a nice feedneck , etc. It may not be "New" persay but at least it would be something until "New" happens. Thro us a bone. :D

If doing nothing was working and if the aftermarkets minimal attempt at a fix was enough , this discussion would happen far less and AGD , it's product line and it's dealer network would be blossoming. But it's not and that's where we are now and . . . I think 'we' would appreciate not getting attacked and our concerns mearly dismissed because of it. :) At least pretend to acknowledge our concerns . . . like everyone else ;) . . . at least that might make us happy . . . for a little while.

Have a good one.

:cheers:

rkjunior303

05-24-2007, 09:53 AM

+1 for zaqwert6

tech-chan

05-24-2007, 10:55 AM

+1 for zaqwert6

AGREED! Also, I have a challenge for you guys. You want something NEW? Design it yourself on CAD, notepad, Google sketchup or anything that involves the computer. Stick it up here in our "blue" forum and show your design off. Im doing it, and I expect you weanies that cry because we don't have anything new here too do it too. Get of your buts and quit typing long enough to work together to create something new and then get AGD to make it!

Lohman446

05-24-2007, 11:06 AM

AGREED! Also, I have a challenge for you guys. You want something NEW? Design it yourself on CAD, notepad, Google sketchup or anything that involves the computer. Stick it up here in our "blue" forum and show your design off. Im doing it, and I expect you weanies that cry because we don't have anything new here too do it too. Get of your buts and quit typing long enough to work together to create something new and then get AGD to make it!

Neh, it was easier to go out and buy something else that fit what I wanted :). And besides, as Rogue has pointed out TK has basically stated they are not going to make what I want, even if I handed them a fully functional prototype.

tech-chan

05-24-2007, 11:08 AM

Neh, it was easier to go out and buy something else that fit what I wanted :). And besides, as Rogue has pointed out TK has basically stated they are not going to make what I want, even if I handed them a fully functional prototype.

Fine then, Im working ona mechanical engineering degree and I have a lathe. Draw it up and I'll try to make a prototype and then we''l get them to do it.

Lohman446

05-24-2007, 11:11 AM

Fine then, Im working ona mechanical engineering degree and I have a lathe. Draw it up and I'll try to make a prototype and then we''l get them to do it.

There a business plan that involves buying AGD in there somewhere? And paying off SP?

tech-chan

05-24-2007, 11:19 AM

sure. cuede ta(spelling?).

rkjunior303

05-24-2007, 11:23 AM

sure. cuede ta(spelling?).

coup d'etat.

tech-chan

05-24-2007, 11:25 AM

Thank you.

RogueFactor

05-24-2007, 12:08 PM

Pretty much. :) Despite that , Rogue is going to say what ever he wants as truth , even when he's wrong . He just re-spins his previous statements.

When you dont like the truth, it must be 'spin' :cool:

If I hadnt been saying this exact same thing 5 years ago, I might agree with you. The difference is, rather than complaining, I went and did something about it and learned from that experience. Experience gives you a whole different perspective, one you dont have. Your opinion alone and pretty words on the page just arent enough, regardless of the few that may agree with you.

But . . . what we all know is that doing nothing , limiting supply , raising prices (when they should be going down) and depending on like the one or two dealers left in the business to re-invent the same minimal product line over and over again is NOT the answer. Not to mention I shouldn't have to buy most of those parts in the aftermarket when the Manufacturer is suppling the aftermarket with the raw stock parts in the first place. All that product could and 'should' be offered by the manufacturer as stock product. I'm sure AGD could add a few cuts to a ULE body , another trigger style , screw on a nice feedneck , etc. It may not be "New" persay but at least it would be something until "New" happens. Thro us a bone. :D

Prices should be going down? I will let Greenspan and Bernanke know that your knowledge defeats the laws & principles of economics and inflation.

Youve got what you are asking for. Its available. Youve been thrown the bone. If the demand was overhwelming for the bone youve been thrown, AGD would have done it in mass. Mfr's use the aftermarket as their test. You are complaining to complain now.

Its easy to sit on the sidelines and tell us how youd do it when you have nothing at risk. When all other attempts have been made, and the only answer left is the one you are asserting. If it is just that simple, youre sitting on a pot of gold. Invest your money into your ideas of how to make it right, and make your millions. I will be waiting to see what you come up with, hope it isnt just a reinvention of the same minimal product line over and over again.

Have a good one. :cheers:

Desega

05-24-2007, 12:53 PM

Rogue wins. Having worked in a proshop for 4+ years, not much has changed in any marker styles, other than colors and a little milling here and there. Whatever you guys are complaining about is pointless, because there are tons of custom mag parts available, you just have to know where to look. Try the BST forum, you'll see.

tech-chan

05-24-2007, 01:04 PM

I agree that rogue wins, however I am pushing for a revolution. Not an arguement. Im off to go work on my design now...

Lohman446

05-24-2007, 01:09 PM

rawbutter

05-24-2007, 01:10 PM

As people have said, the problem is that (for whatever reason) there is not enough demand for mags. The only way to get new products and lower prices is to create more demand.

My plan is to write an epic paintball screenplay and cast the mag as the "magic sword." Then I sell it, someone makes a movie, and kids everywhere start buying mags cause they saw it on the big screen... and it rocked! :D

Oh... and just in case you think I'm joking, I'm not. I already have one screenplay out there (not about paintball) looking for a buyer. If it sells, I've already decided that this paintball screenplay will be my next project.

rkjunior303

05-24-2007, 01:17 PM

I agree that rogue wins, however I am pushing for a revolution. Not an arguement. Im off to go work on my design now...

you're going to be waiting a long time, my friend, for that revolution.

bryceeden

05-24-2007, 01:57 PM

Cool. Wheres my factory supported break beam eye, ramping mag? I'm still lost how anyone is convinced the mag is cutting edge....
Why do you need an eye system when you have the level X? You still haven't answered that question. As for the ramping, get an x-moded e-mag.

Lohman446

05-24-2007, 02:09 PM

Why do you need an eye system when you have the level X? You still haven't answered that question. As for the ramping, get an x-moded e-mag.

X-mod is not manufacturer supported, at all.

I want a proactive anti-chop system. I really don't like LX - A) its reactive rather than proactive B) I hate tuning it C) I have never used one that was good on even moderatly fragile paint.

And yeh I have answered the question before :) Just not in this thread

pyrodragon

05-24-2007, 04:04 PM

i love AGD and their products. i like the fact that even though tom is retire, he still has say. it's not like he doesn't come on the forums. but you have to realize that a majority of the aftermarket "upgrades" are more so for personal touch. for all you worried about air, are you all paying all day air like i do? so what's the point? and when are you going to run through 1200 shots in one game less alone over 1200? if your so worry about cost of gun then why don't you even complainabout the cost of paint. i'll bet most people spend more on paint than ever on a gun. do you think it's right to pay $200+ for a pump?all in all if you a mag fan and a loyal fan at that it shouldn't matter what the cost are. if your worried about the cost of a marker then why don't you complain how fuel cost have tripled in the past decade? all in all the price of everything does one of two things: 1)reaches to the point of $0 without ever reaching $0 or 2) they steadily rise. for all of you that think AGD should come out with something "new", lets hear about your new ideas are and see you put it to action. stop standing on the sidelines. anyone can be a sideliner but people like rogue, jay, luke, tuna, etc. actually have been doing something about it instead of just jacking their jaws. it's easy to talk the talk but a lot hader to back it by walking the walk. peace

zaqwert6

05-24-2007, 04:23 PM

When you dont like the truth, it must be 'spin' :cool:

Just cause you say it so , doesn't make it so.

Prices should be going down? I will let Greenspan and Bernanke know that your knowledge defeats the laws & principles of economics and inflation.

The average price of markers have been going down across the board for 5+ years now in addition to getting more bang for your buck.

Youve got what you are asking for. Its available. Youve been thrown the bone. If the demand was overhwelming for the bone youve been thrown, AGD would have done it in mass. Mfr's use the aftermarket as their test. You are complaining to complain now.

I'm not complaining at all , I stating wants and opinions. I guess your not understanding that people want these things from AGD , they want to see AGD make the effort to survive , and not just exclusively from some tiny single line internet dealer. But . . . I'm glad that your response is precisely what I said it would be. I understand your position , you have pretty much the whole AGD aftermarket tied up with little or no competition. As long as they have their head in the sand your in business. :) And there's nothing wrong with that.

Its easy to sit on the sidelines and tell us how youd do it when you have nothing at risk. When all other attempts have been made, and the only answer left is the one you are asserting.

I haven't really asserted any and obviously all other attempts have NOT been made. Seems pretty apparent that very few attemps have been made in lew of not taking any risk. That's been the stated position of AGD for years now. "Wait and see". That's what you do right before the kick the dirt in. :)

If it is just that simple, youre sitting on a pot of gold. Invest your money into your ideas of how to make it right, and make your millions. I will be waiting to see what you come up with, hope it isnt just a reinvention of the same minimal product line over and over again.

I take and have taken those risks in my own business and it has paid off very well for me. I went into semi-retirement by the age of 36. I spend most of my time on a golf course in the sun. :) Anytime you want race pinks for assets or portfolios let me know and I'll give Rich a call and have him set it up. But you better be sure to bring cash for cab fair. :D

Have a good one. :cheers:

I'm having a great one , thanks.

I'm not really the overly concerned with it , paintball is just a hobby for me. I'd like to see AGD do something to make a comeback but if it doesn't happen it's not going to change the industry. It's just a shame to see something you've enjoyed for so long widdle down to nothing and go away. Like an old family pet pasing on . . . it's just sad , that's all.

I will tell you this . . . if I was going to invest in somewhere in Paintball , and I've considered it in the past , it would not likely be AGD with thier current attitude. I'd have to go with someone going after the market , not running from it. If AGD wants some one to take a risk with them and invest in the company , they're going to have to drop the whole wait and see nonsense and get thier butt in gear. If however , they are content (as it seems) to just coast on by until all the old inventory runs out then that's thier choice too.

That's not going to change the feeling of the people who are going to miss them when they are gone.

:cool:

LinearGoose

05-24-2007, 04:30 PM

I'm having a great one , thanks.

I'm not really the overly concerned with it , paintball is just a hobby for me. I'd like to see AGD do something to make a comeback but if it doesn't happen it's not going to change the industry. It's just a shame to see something you've enjoyed for so long widdle down to nothing and go away. Like an old family pet pasing on . . . it's just sad , that's all.

I will tell you this . . . if I was going to invest in somewhere in Paintball , and I've considered it in the past , it would not likely be AGD with thier current attitude. I'd have to go with someone going after the market , not running from it. If AGD wants some one to take a risk with them and invest in the company , they're going to have to drop the whole wait and see nonsense and get thier butt in gear. If however , they are content (as it seems) to just coast on by until all the old inventory runs out then that's thier choice too.

That's not going to change the feeling of the people who are going to miss them when they are gone.

:cool:
Can I ask why AGD is leaving?

pyrodragon

05-24-2007, 04:33 PM

Can I ask why AGD is leaving?

they are not leaving.

LinearGoose

05-24-2007, 04:36 PM

they are not leaving.
Alright thats what I thought. Just wanted to check because from the previous posts it sounded like AGD is just going to walk out on us.

zaqwert6

05-24-2007, 04:40 PM

No , not leaving just like that.

But obviously not the force they once were , not interested in being that force and obviously one of the weaker companies in the business today. I doubt it would take very much at all for them to hang it up. They sure aren't go after any new business. Are not willing to take any risk , not willing to invest in themselves.

The rest after that is text book finance in a competive market.

RogueFactor

05-24-2007, 04:50 PM

Just cause you say it so , doesn't make it so.

That works both ways. Difference being I have experience on my side.

The average price of markers have been going down across the board for 5+ years now in addition to getting more bang for your buck.

Not quite accurate. The average price for markers that have been around over the last 5 years has remained nearly constant. The only thing that has lowered in price is markers with less quality, inferior construction, and inferior 'features'. Even the SP Ion recently increased in price.

But just for giggles, which markers are you referring to that have come down in price?

I'm not complaining at all , I stating wants and opinions. I guess your not understanding that people want these things from AGD , they want to see AGD make the effort to survive , and not just exclusively from some tiny single line internet dealer. But . . . I'm glad that your response is precisely what I said it would be. I understand your position , you have pretty much the whole AGD aftermarket tied up with little or no competition. As long as they have their head in the sand your in business. And there's nothing wrong with that.

I guess what your not understanding, is everyone wants what cannot be done---something different. This thread is a perfect example. Some want a constantly new stream of parts, while also wanting something uniquely different and innovative----all CHEAP. An impossible task.

You dont have the breadth of experience in this industry of doing it and then having having to accept the consequences. A nice position, being a back-seat driver always is.

I haven't really asserted any and obviously all other attempts have NOT been made. Seems pretty apparent that very few attemps have been made in lew of not taking any risk. That's been the stated position of AGD for years now. "Wait and see". That's what you do right before the kick the dirt in.

Sure you have. But you lose nothing if youre wrong, someone else does.

I take and have taken those risks in my own business and it has paid off very well for me. I went into semi-retirement by the age of 36. I spend most of my time on a golf course in the sun. Anytime you want race pinks for assets or portfolios let me know and I'll give Rich a call and have him set it up. But you better be sure to bring cash for cab fair.

Well, then this should be easy for ya. Youve got the means, and the plan. Step up and Do it.

Anytime. Call Rich, let me know the details and stipulations of what you have in mind. My e-mail is [email protected] . I will wait to hear from you

I'd like to see AGD do something to make a comeback but if it doesn't happen it's not going to change the industry.

Me too. Thats why I do what I do. From AGD parts.

I will tell you this . . . if I was going to invest in somewhere in Paintball , and I've considered it in the past , it would not likely be AGD with thier current attitude. I'd have to go with someone going after the market , not running from it. If AGD wants some one to take a risk with them and invest in the company , they're going to have to drop the whole wait and see nonsense and get thier butt in gear. If however , they are content (as it seems) to just coast on by until all the old inventory runs out then that's thier choice too.

Dont invest in the company, buy it and run with it. That way you run the show, with all your own ideas---and no excuses. Just be prepared to bring cab fair. Thats all youll have left when your done :cheers:

nathanjones008

05-24-2007, 05:05 PM

zaqwert6

05-24-2007, 05:21 PM

Tell me why I would buy AGD over any other company with a reasonable market share in paintball ? Why is it my job to save AGD ? Why is your only answer to put AGDs burden on everyone else ? Do you not feel AGD had any responsibilty to themselves ? Are they a "Not for profit" charity organization ? :)

It's real easy to just tell everyone else to do it , your so hyped on AGD why not buy them yourself if you have it all figured out and AGD is doing just fine ? If there in such good form just have them go public and I'll even pick up a few shares for grins. I'm a pretty charitable person. :)

Here's the real kicker . . .

AO'ers don't even want anything that 'new' from AGD. Just something different but not even that different.

For example :

'08 Xmag
1) All one piece Alu body
2) Interchangable breach w/ clamping (threaded) feed neck
3) Dual Detents
4) Internal break beam eyes
5) Electro-pnuematic operation
6) Gas thru Grip frame
7) Blade trigger standard
8) Semi only BUT w/ Chip based software configuration
9) Drop the 'actual' max recharge rate to ~25 allowing the drop of the required input pressure somewhat and a minor increase in efficiency
10) Most of those changes should drop the weight to under 2lbs.

Is that so hard ?

Tell me the AGD buying world wouldn't eat that up all day long at a price point under $1K. I guarantee it would open up market share across the board for them and if they would agree to consider it I would consider investing in that product development given right back end.

Anywho . . .

Just to save you all the copy and paste . . . and because this discussion is ultimately without purpose . . . I'll go ahead and say . . .

Your right , AGD is stronger than ever , the product they offer could not be improved in any way , it's the biggest value in paintball right now and there is nothing they could do to make their market share any bigger than it is right now.

There , now you can sleep better at night. :D I've gotta roll anyway . . . gotta an early flight in the morning. I'll check in when I get back in town.

:cheers:

rawbutter

05-24-2007, 05:30 PM

AO'ers don't even want anything that 'new' from AGD. Just something different but not even that different.

For example :

'08 Xmag
1) All one piece Alu body
2) Interchangable breach w/ clamping (threaded) feed neck
3) Dual Detents
4) Internal break beam eyes
5) Electro-pnuematic operation
6) Gas thru Grip frame
7) Blade trigger standard
8) Semi only BUT w/ Chip based software configuration
9) Drop the 'actual' max recharge rate to ~25 allowing the drop of the required input pressure somewhat and a minor increase in efficiency
10) Most of those changes should drop the weight to under 2lbs.

Is that so hard ?

It probably is hard.... but dang, I would buy this '08 Xmag! (Actually, I wouldn't, because I have no money, but I would REALLY drool over it.)

SCpoloRicker

05-24-2007, 05:42 PM

zaqwert6, I find your ideas interesting and would like to sign up for your newsletter.

/is this where I brag about my mortgage rate and assets?

Lohman446

05-24-2007, 07:49 PM

'08 Xmag
1) All one piece Alu body
2) Interchangable breach w/ clamping (threaded) feed neck
3) Dual Detents
4) Internal break beam eyes
5) Electro-pnuematic operation
6) Gas thru Grip frame
7) Blade trigger standard
8) Semi only BUT w/ Chip based software configuration
9) Drop the 'actual' max recharge rate to ~25 allowing the drop of the required input pressure somewhat and a minor increase in efficiency
10) Most of those changes should drop the weight to under 2lbs.

1 and 2 are of course doable.

3 and 4. Where is the second detent, second eye with interchangeable breeches. In the warp breech the eye (and presumably second detent) would have to be across from each other perpendicular to the balls path. So you would have to have it in the bottom and top of the breech. How is this going to work with the vertical module installed?

What's the advantage of electro-pneumatic operation - assuming you are basically talking about an electro pneumag?

Max recharge rate is a moot point - theres a reason you have not seen videos of devilmags at 30BPS, or X-modded mags - the solenoid does not support it.

Dropping pressure, it has been theorized, may actually decrease efficiency.

I like the concept of new ideas, but its AGD we can't just go with the crowd. TK once talked about building a new marker. You would have to search for the thread... and after your done search for the thread where I called dibs on being first in line :) .

Lohman446

05-24-2007, 07:50 PM

Your right , AGD is stronger than ever , the product they offer could not be improved in any way , it's the biggest value in paintball right now and there is nothing they could do to make their market share any bigger than it is right now.

You forgot the part about anyone shooting anything else being stupid and uneducated. Other than that your catching on to the party line :)

Chronobreak

05-24-2007, 08:21 PM

psssh

lohman, tom isnt making a marker just so he doesnt have to give you a free one :p

Ninjeff

05-24-2007, 08:46 PM

I think the "wait and see attitude" is sad. I mean, i understand it. I do, really. But the AGD legacy is one of innovation and creation. Half the current paintball industry wouldnt exist without the innovation of Tom Kaye. Its just sad to see them resting on their laurels.

I agree, as an avid AGD'er i would like nothing more to have a new marker hit the shelves and decimate everything previously thought possible, just like so many things Tom was responsible for in the past. My passion for the game tells me to demand a new marker from AGD. My logic tells me AGD, and Tom, are doing the only thing they can, right now, given the state of the industry.

Perhaps the easiest thing to do would be getting mags onto the tourney scene.
Just like cars:

Win on sunday, sell on monday.

Why doesnt AGD have a more visible face in the tourney scene? Im sure there is a reason, i just dont know what it is.

Rift

05-24-2007, 10:06 PM

Hasn't it already been stated as well that AGD is mainly focusing on woods ball now anyways? Whats the point of a high speed electro when for most scenario players whats on the product line is good enough. Don't get me wrong who on these boards wouldn't love to see a new gun come out of the AGD factory but the way i see it with there current focus why would do they need too.

Rift

RogueFactor

05-24-2007, 10:12 PM

Hasn't it already been stated as well that AGD is mainly focusing on woods ball now anyways?

Yes. Tom said that more than once.

Whats the point of a high speed electro when for most scenario players whats on the product line is good enough. Don't get me wrong who on these boards wouldn't love to see a new gun come out of the AGD factory but the way i see it with there current focus why would do they need too.

Rift

There really isnt a point. But a few think if they complain loud enough, or often enough...that somehow that will change. It happens every few months. And its usually the same people that do it.

ProblemKinder

05-24-2007, 10:49 PM

correct me if I'm wrong but didn't AGD stop making electro mags to avoid being sued by SP? that was the impression I got anyways.

SummaryJudgement

05-24-2007, 11:02 PM

Once again:

I like my automags.......................................... .....

Ninjeff

05-24-2007, 11:08 PM

The Tac One is doing really well isnt it?

nathanjones008

05-25-2007, 05:38 AM

correct me if I'm wrong but didn't AGD stop making electro mags to avoid being sued by SP? that was the impression I got anyways.

They stop making electros because they do not need anything else. All is perfect! :ninja:

rkjunior303

05-25-2007, 11:17 AM

The Tac One is doing really well isnt it?

At scenarios? I dunno about that. At our field we ref their big games which usually have around 800-1000 people.

Honestly, what do I see there more than anything else (well, besides tippmans) when we chrono people on?

Electronic Guns... Whether it's an e-spyder, ion, or a DM7 - it doesn't matter. I guarantee if I were to go count the non-rentals, the electros would outweight the mecahnicals.

So, as Rogue like to point out many times - I'm speaking from experience on this.

RogueFactor

05-25-2007, 11:24 AM

At scenarios? I dunno about that. At our field we ref their big games which usually have around 800-1000 people.

Honestly, what do I see there more than anything else (well, besides tippmans) when we chrono people on?

Electronic Guns... Whether it's an e-spyder, ion, or a DM7 - it doesn't matter. I guarantee if I were to go count the non-rentals, the electros would outweight the mecahnicals.

So, as Rogue like to point out many times - I'm speaking from experience on this.

Yeah guys....besides Tippmanns and non-rentals I bet the remaining 12 guns out of 800 would be electros too :rofl:

Im a ref, and I speak from experience! :spit_take

rkjunior303

05-25-2007, 12:17 PM

Yeah guys....besides Tippmanns and non-rentals I bet the remaining 12 guns out of 800 would be electros too :rofl:

Im a ref, and I speak from experience! :spit_take

I would say about half of the markers there are own equipment and i may be generous on the amount of rentals out... When you chrono on close to 500 guns, you can see what everyone is shooting. So yes, from being a REF at these scenarios I *DO* speak from experience..

WenULiVeUdiE

05-25-2007, 03:21 PM

Electronic Guns... Whether it's an e-spyder, ion, or a DM7 - it doesn't matter. I guarantee if I were to go count the non-rentals, the electros would outweight the mecahnicals.

I would have to agree on your point. After attending quite a few scenario games, other than rentals and tippmanns, there are not that many mechanical markers out there. I see many more electros than I do mechanicals...

And it doesn't surprise me at all...

Lohman446

05-25-2007, 03:29 PM

I dont think Im complaining, Im just questioning the "hype" that surrounds mags - seemingly advanced by a select few people.

RogueFactor

05-25-2007, 03:59 PM

Honestly, what do I see there more than anything else (well, besides tippmans) when we chrono people on?

Electronic Guns... Whether it's an e-spyder, ion, or a DM7 - it doesn't matter. I guarantee if I were to go count the non-rentals, the electros would outweight the mecahnicals.

So, as Rogue like to point out many times - I'm speaking from experience on this.

I would say about half of the markers there are own equipment and i may be generous on the amount of rentals out... When you chrono on close to 500 guns, you can see what everyone is shooting. So yes, from being a REF at these scenarios I *DO* speak from experience..

You dont need much experience, or to be a ref, to realize that Tippmanns & rentals(mechs) make up the large majority of Scenarios. Once those are removed from the count, the remaining minority will be electros...not a leap of genious to come to that conclusion. ;)

RogueFactor

05-25-2007, 04:16 PM

Im just questioning the "hype" that surrounds mags - seemingly advanced by a select few people.

Which hype is that?

Find it, and list it for me. Ill bite. Include their names too, Id like to know who you are referring to as the 'select few'.

Ninjeff

05-25-2007, 06:25 PM

I wasnt saying you could find a Tac1 in every scenario players hands. I know tippmanns rule that market.

Still, i was under the impression that the tac 1 kinda boosted sales just a smidge. Maybe i was wrong though.

skipdogg

05-25-2007, 07:57 PM

Why doesn't Zupe just post here why the price increased?

RogueFactor

05-25-2007, 08:11 PM

Why doesn't Zupe just post here why the price increased?

Because the very first response to this thread explained it perfectly...

http://www.automags.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2364577&postcount=2

If Zupe came here every time someone cried or complained about something, it would only encourage more crying and complaining. There is enough of that already, we dont need more. And since the answer is already posted, there is no need for Zupe to repeat what has already been said.

Chronobreak

05-25-2007, 08:16 PM

Because the very first response to this post explained it perfectly...

http://www.automags.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2364577&postcount=2

If Zupe came here every time someone cried or complained about something, it would only encourage more crying and complaining. There is enough of that already, we dont need more. And since the answer is already posted, there is no need for Zupe to repeat what has already been said.

settle down

i think even the almighty RF has been amazed at the unforeseeable demand for a product.

and zupe never post regardless, i think the online thing just isnt for him..im not sure it has much with not wanting to commune with the fanbase, but i dont know him personaly.

and to go along with what rf just reposted and BE did originaly. IF agd were in a miracle of all miracles to clear out all inventory expcept replacement parts and the newer ule customs they would be even more streamlined and would perhaps have more leeway to do larger runs and focus on other things. but that ofcourse requires losing the "old" "outdated" inventory.

--and image

RogueFactor

05-25-2007, 08:24 PM

settle down

i think even the almighty RF has been amazed at the unforeseeable demand for a product.

Settle down, tiger. Ive found what you think you know, and what you actually know are 2 different things.

To hopefully prove my point...Which 'unforseeable' demand are you referring to?

Chronobreak

05-25-2007, 08:27 PM

Settle down, tiger. Ive found what you think you know, and what you actually know are 2 different things.

To hopefully prove my point...Which 'unforseeable' demand are you referring to?

you can see inside my head, you must be good

you yourself have said you were "unexpected" yo see things like your vert frames sell so well, and do multiple batches"

i would look for the post but im sure its been deleted :rolleyes:

nathanjones008

05-25-2007, 08:45 PM

The ones complaining are more concerned than anything. We( the concerned ones) all want this company to thrive and do well. :clap: I think all should be concerned. I think all of us has bought a new things from agd designs at one point or another. Shoot i have bought a few brand new guns. I tell everyone this from the bottom of my heart, not to cause contention. SOme may say go and make it happen your self. I cant, until agd sends me a job application. And all you ones like rouge and tuna are doing well trying to keep mags alive, but i do think the manufacture needs to step in and do its part. thats 2 cents. I hope it may help. :)

This comapny has so much potential and talent i would hate to see it go to waste. :)

RogueFactor

05-25-2007, 08:56 PM

you can see inside my head, you must be good

you yourself have said you were "unexpected" yo see things like your vert frames sell so well, and do multiple batches"

i would look for the post but im sure its been deleted :rolleyes:

Scary thought. :eek:

No, Ive seen your posts. That are often inaccurate. I have to figure your just making a guess half the time with partial information you puzzle together.

Im never surprised that my vert frames sell well. I put allot of effort into those to make them the best possible. And I believe both the last 2 batch threads are still in the Dealers section. Go crazy and find the post...Id like to read it.

BigEvil

05-25-2007, 09:00 PM

How about a proactive anti-chop system, programmable trigger, ability to fire in current league modes, a stock adjustable feed neck, an internal air line system to start with.

Just repacking of what has been around for years...

Oh... wait, not in a mag.

So spend untold thousands of dollars to re-tool the same product, which only about 1000 people will buy. How many would they have to sell just ot break even on such a venture? 10,000? 20,000? Who's going to buy them?

Why even entertain this line of thinking when the products they already have sell enough to sustain the company at a profitable rate?

Why the heck are you harping on an adjustable feedneck for? It will be the second thing people throw away right after the stock barrel.

League modes? Why should AGD bother? Spend $100 on an Xmod programer or Morlock board if that is the real reason your panties are in a knot. Why would they do something that is already being done fairly well in the aftermarket? ESPECIALLY WHEN PEOPLE WILL STILL NOT USE THEM. Where is the benafit? Where is the money to be made? If there is no profit, then why do it?

AGD has been around for what about 15 years? Look at all the fly-by-night companies that have come and went in just the last 10 years. AGD may not be the biggest, but they are doing something right to still be here. Unless you have access to their books and can prove me wrong, then since they are still operating I can only logically conclude that they are making some sort of profit.

nathanjones008

05-26-2007, 05:29 AM

what if AKA and AGD merged? That would be sweet. Two ledgendary companies in one! :headbang:

Lohman446

05-26-2007, 06:17 AM

So spend untold thousands of dollars to re-tool the same product, which only about 1000 people will buy. How many would they have to sell just ot break even on such a venture? 10,000? 20,000? Who's going to buy them?

Why even entertain this line of thinking when the products they already have sell enough to sustain the company at a profitable rate?

You took my post out of context, it was in response to one of Rogues classic hype posts about how mags are as far as they can be and there is nothing new that could be added to them, the quote from him was

They want AGD to do what everyone else is doing...re-packaging last years stuff and calling it new.

There is very little that is truly new in the industry as a whole. Which is why sales are slowing, there isnt anything more to hype.

I was simply trying to point out to him that mags do not have everything that one could want. As I have stated in this thread the company is TKs, if he is happy with the risk to reward ratios now, does not see an advantage in those ratios to changing things, then more power to him - no reason to change.

Mags are a great marker for what they are - I would place them as the top mechanical marker available in production or quasi production form.

However, this hype that people are trying to push them as better than, able to do everything an electro marker can do, is old. -- this is my new sound byte. I'm not as good, or experienced as arguing in sound bytes as some people, than again I don't tend to go delete posts after arguments around them have been formed either. If this applies to you, you can figure it out.

BigEvil

05-26-2007, 07:04 AM

You took my post out of context, it was in response to one of Rogues classic hype posts about how mags are as far as they can be and there is nothing new that could be added to them, the quote from him was

Well.. thoretically you can add anything, eyes, flux capacitor, kitchen sink, anus tickler, whatever.. BUT, if it is economically unfeasable to do so.. then Rogue is correct in stating that nothing new can be added. At least not from the factory, it just aint gonna happen.

Lohman446

05-26-2007, 07:15 AM

Well.. thoretically you can add anything, eyes, flux capacitor, kitchen sink, anus tickler, whatever.. BUT, if it is economically unfeasable to do so.. then Rogue is correct in stating that nothing new can be added. At least not from the factory, it just aint gonna happen.

Assuming it is not economically feasible is a long stretch. There is a difference between feasible and not within the current owners risk to reward tolerance. I don't necessarily like the "this is as good as it gets and there is nothing to get better" viewpoint. It could get better, but its not within what the company wants to do is far more accurate.

BigEvil

05-26-2007, 08:42 AM

Assuming it is not economically feasible is a long stretch. There is a difference between feasible and not within the current owners risk to reward tolerance. I don't necessarily like the "this is as good as it gets and there is nothing to get better" viewpoint. It could get better, but its not within what the company wants to do is far more accurate.

Not "Wants" to do, "Can" do.

Like I said, everything is economics. The risk to reward ratio just aint cutting it. To make money on any revamped product, they have to cut development and production cost drastically. What does that mean? Probably outsourcing the production overseas, which would murder q.c., thus alienating their current existing market. So unless they were to come out with the latest newest uber-whatever that every 13 yo tourny wannabe HAS TO HAVE (which I seriously doubt they are capable of creating that kinda of hype) then just about any major alteration to the product line would only sink the company.

As far as minor alterations? Why not. But then again, how many Intelliframe triggers do I need? How many different types of rails? Anything that would really create a buzz in the mag community would either A) be a major investment with a low chance of reward or B) infrindge on someone's patent.

But seriously, where are the shortcomings? IF you say effieciency, then ok there is the only major one. The valve system is still one of if not the best out there for ROF and consistency of velocity. My E and Xmags shoot in excess of 20 bps without chopping paint. I, and probably most players, do not shoot at those speeds. And IIRC, arent most tournies limited to 15bps these days? So Emags can shoot just as fast, without breaking paint, with NO first shot drop off, and can be updated to the modern firing modes. They also can take poundings that would make chop suey out of many other markers. Other than being an airhog (which to me isnt an issue) then what major leap does AGD need to take to 'keep up'. I see your points, but they are irrelivant.

Lohman446

05-26-2007, 09:22 AM

Not "Wants" to do, "Can" do. .

Its want to - not can. I am sure if TK wanted to TK could.

"But, but SP..." That whine doesn't work, there are too many counterexamples of companies operating in todays legal environment. Some that started with less than AGD.

I will accept that TK makes the decision based on what he sees appropriate, and respect him for that.

Can't is a cop out invented by others.

RogueFactor

05-26-2007, 11:24 AM

You took my post out of context, it was in response to one of Rogues classic hype posts about how mags are as far as they can be and there is nothing new that could be added to them, the quote from him was

Is that your MO? Call something 'hype' that isnt? I guess you dont know or understand the meaning of the word.

I was simply trying to point out to him that mags do not have everything that one could want.

For some they do. For you, it seems, they may not. It doesnt meant that mags dont have features that are just as good, if not better than what you want. Just because you dont think so, doesnt mean it isnt true.

However, this hype that people are trying to push them as better than, able to do everything an electro marker can do, is old. -- this is my new sound byte.

BS. About the only thing mechs cant do better is ramp. Otherwise, they all shoot 300 fps, as fast as you can pull the trigger.--- your the one with the hype. Trying to make it sound like there is something magical and special to a ramping electro marker. And there isnt.

---thats my new sound byte. The anti-hype. Shooting 300 fps as fast as you can pull the trigger. :D

rkjunior303

05-26-2007, 12:47 PM

You dont need much experience, or to be a ref, to realize that Tippmanns & rentals(mechs) make up the large majority of Scenarios. Once those are removed from the count, the remaining minority will be electros...not a leap of genious to come to that conclusion. ;)

So, then, you agree that you dont have to be a genious to realize even though AGD seems to be "CONCENTRATING" on the woodsball/scenario market, they are in fact themselves a minority - maybe even more so than electros on the field.

So, if the majority of markers are rental/scenario tippys and then the majority of the remainder are electros - where does that leave AGD, a company supposedly concentrating on the scenario market?

RogueFactor

05-26-2007, 02:59 PM

So, then, you agree that you dont have to be a genious to realize even though AGD seems to be "CONCENTRATING" on the woodsball/scenario market, they are in fact themselves a minority - maybe even more so than electros on the field.

So, if the majority of markers are rental/scenario tippys and then the majority of the remainder are electros - where does that leave AGD, a company supposedly concentrating on the scenario market?

Mechs are the majority of markers used in Woodsball/Scenario. Concentrating on the mech segment is the smartest business approach for AGD to take.

Which is what theyve done. :clap:

If you really think someone said that mags are the majority at a scenario event, please find it. I think you inferred, assumed, or mis-read that entirely and are mistaken.

Foxworthy

05-26-2007, 04:37 PM

How about a proactive anti-chop system, programmable trigger, ability to fire in current league modes, a stock adjustable feed neck, an internal air line system to start with.

Just repacking of what has been around for years...

Oh... wait, not in a mag.

Didn't the X-Mag have eyes? Can't you get upgrades for the e-mag software that lets you use PSP, NPPL and such (kind alike buying an aftermartket board for most e-guns.) An adjustable feed neck would be nice stock though not all e-gun have it stock either. And internal air lines? You're kidding me right? Just like almost every other gun out there Mags have a air line that goes from the regulator (in the mag valve) to the ASA. I think the mini is the only marker out there that doesn't have an external air line. Of course you could be referring to vertical adapter airline to valve and vertical adapter to asa but that's a personal choice not a requirement.

The only thing AGD doesn't have is e-markers anymore. That's a choice by Tom Kaye. He doesn't want his money going to SP. If the bottom ever falls out on SP "patents" than I know e-mags and x-mags will return. Right now though the cost of making a marker, paying SP and paying a pro team to promote the marker isn't really worth it to AGD.

Which means they are making enough money to live comfortably. Kinda like Palmers and CCI.

I understand you don't like the hype that mags don't need upgrades, but really how many people like the hype that e-guns are the only guns that matter. That's all hype. If all the pro teams switched to mechs people would flock to the mechs.

Ninjeff

05-26-2007, 04:43 PM

i sure would like them (agd) to put out some type of pnue-mag. That would be cool.

nathanjones008

05-26-2007, 05:24 PM

i have heard of companies paying sp, but who has? Is the electronics just on electronic in general? I havent heard of anyone paying them yet.

RogueFactor

05-26-2007, 05:38 PM

i have heard of companies paying sp, but who has? Is the electronics just on electronic in general? I havent heard of anyone paying them yet.

The two bolded statements contradict each other. Youve heard of companies paying SP.....but havent heard of anyone paying them?

For those who havent been keeping up on current events...

http://www.68caliber.com/news/industry/story042421.php

RogueFactor

05-26-2007, 05:44 PM

For those not familiar with past events, here are a few others as well...

http://www.68caliber.com/news/industry/story041903.php

http://www.68caliber.com/news/industry/story041885.php

http://www.68caliber.com/news/industry/story041836.php

BigEvil

05-26-2007, 06:41 PM

Its want to - not can. I am sure if TK wanted to TK could.

"But, but SP..." That whine doesn't work, there are too many counterexamples of companies operating in todays legal environment. Some that started with less than AGD.

I will accept that TK makes the decision based on what he sees appropriate, and respect him for that.

Can't is a cop out invented by others.

How is TK not wanting to loose his shirt a cop out? AGD simply cannot and will not attempt to compete in the market that you want it to. Perhaps to some it is an overly conservative approach, but unlike other companies - AGD is still producting and believe it or not, SELLING markers. Like I said before, logic can only make us assume that they must be making money somewhere since they are still in business. Henseforth- it was a wise business decision if not unpopular.

Where are these counter examples of companies you speak of? How many are either thriving, not in some convoluted legal snafu, or will be around in 5 years?

-AKA: stopped making guns, probably forever
-ICD: first company in the lawsuit-frenzy crosshairs and was eventually sold to NPS
-Centerflag : stopped making e-frames all together
-Most of the aftermarket board makers: already served papers with settlements or cases pending
-Racegun: No longer making eframes OR aftermarket cocker bodies
-NPS/PMI - currently in the crosshairs
-Planet Eclipse: forks over big$ to be able to make electros.

AND the big three - SP, DYE and WDP all beat the crap out of each other in court to position themselves to work together to control the industry.

So these examples you speak of, are companies who have to pay royalties on their products to someone else OR stay embattled in legal trouble.

AGD does neither.

So by what im getting your line of thought is... AGD should
-just pay the licensing fees and make new eguns,
-which not only are more expensive to start,
-BUT will have to have an additional cost factored in for the licensing fees,
-only to go into a market where they will not sell.

:cheers:

nathanjones008

05-26-2007, 07:05 PM

sorry i meant i have heard that some companies had to pay up but whom.

the reason i ask there is a whole bunch od electros that are produced on a regular basis. I guess what i am, saying is i do not see a slow down(releases), or a increase of prices due to royalties companies that have to pay sp.
should a patent have a expiration date?
thanks :)

AirAssault

05-26-2007, 07:15 PM

Ninjeff

05-26-2007, 08:21 PM

I have made it a point to not buy anything made by smart parts.

At all.

Which kinda stinks because i hear the freak kits are pretty spiffy. Oh well.

Lohman446

05-27-2007, 06:57 AM

Where are these counter examples of companies you speak of? How many are either thriving, not in some convoluted legal snafu, or will be around in 5 years?

Cannot is a cop out. No animosity here :) TK made the decision that best suited him, which is exactly what he should have done.

But it seems to me that DP and FEP seem to have been doing ok with smaller shares of the market, Infiniti is still around. I won't count Invert as it is part of something bigger.

Not being into the market place is a business decision based on risk to reward ratios. As long as TK is happy I surely am not complaining about that decision. My only "beef" is with the nonsense that some people roll out. Not you :)